CA: Four police officers shot in Oakland

[The abyss]

Source: sfgate.com

(03-21) 16:09 PDT OAKLAND -- Four Oakland police officers were shot and seriously wounded this afternoon after a car stop went bad, police sources reported.

Two of the officers were gunned down outside their patrol car after they pulled over a car in the 7600 block of MacArthur Boulevard, not far from the Eastmont Town Center. Another officer reported was shot while in pursuit of the suspect. It was not clear where the fourth officer was shot. A suspect was later reported to also have been shot.

The condition of the officers was not immediately available, but the Alameda County coroner was called to Oakland's Highland Hospital in response to the shooting.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/21/BAVB16KU75.DTL&tsp=1

---

Cross post from GD. Why nothing in LBN?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5304490

[CreekDog]

1. awful

that's a bad part of Oakland. sheesh.

my friends live up on the hill and they say they hear more gunshots than they've ever heard in the 8 years they've been there.

[LooseWilly]

234. Up on the hill all the way up to where 73rd turns into Edwards?...

I mean, I drove a cab in Oakland for 10 years... and now I'm Oakland geography neurotic...

And yeah, it's a bad part... what wasn't mentioned is that one of the biggest police substations in the City is in the Eastmont Mall. Which is 1 block and change from the 7400 block of MacArthur, and 3 blocks and change from the 7600 block of MacArthur (I've heard both as locations for this)... and with this confusion, I'm assuming the traffic stop in question had to do with the stop sign at 75th and MacArthur... and probably a rolling stop thereat.

Law and Order... 5 people die over the definition of a stop at a stop sign, and the potential municipal revenue to ensue... though, that's just an ex-cabbie's guess.

[ShortnFiery]

2. I would not be surprised if Assault Rifles were involved.

Hard to imagine that much damage with hand guns alone, but anything is possible. :shrug:

May God watch over the injured Police Officers and their beloved friends and families.

[hack89]

5. Virginia Tech demonstrated very well the damage that hand guns alone can do. nt

[cliffordu]

6. You don't know very much about handguns and close quarters combat,

do you??

[bemildred]

9. Maybe:

"First reports of the incident came from a 911 call at 1:16 p.m., reporting that two officers had been shot, possibly with an assault-type rifle. The suspect fled from the scene, sparking a huge manhunt that involved officers from at least five different law enforcement agencies."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/21/BAVB16KU75.DTL&tsp=1

[Pavulon]

10. Rifles tend to do more damage

that is the basic nature of the weapon. drug or gang related motive to drop the pin, you call it.

[bemildred]

12. Yep, the spin gives the bullet extra stability, so it can go faster with more accuracy.

But I was mainly responding to the "assault" part of "assault rifle".

[Pavulon]

14. Any rifle carries more energy

than a pistol or shotgun pellet. The Orwellian language is not really that important. If it was black and skurry or commie looking it still puts a 130 - 180 grain chunk of metal down range at 2500fps or more. Just like the lone rangers 30-30. That will blow right through a bullet proof vest used by most leos.

I would bit my left testicle this is drug or gang related. The weapon is not the issue.

BTW the energy comes from a case with more powder and a barrel that allows more pressure to build to push a piece of metal faster. no more no less.

[bemildred]

16. Well, I was responding to post #2, which speculated it was an "assault rifle".

I was just offering information that suggested that was true. In that post the weapon did sort of seem to be the issue. You, or course, are free to talk about whatever you like, and I appreciate your contributions.

[Pavulon]

17. Hope all involved pull through.

have not seen confirmed news of deaths. However thoughts are with the families. A tragedy for all involved.

[LooseWilly]

235. Oakland is not LA.

The gang scene is not so well defined.
At least not as far as a cabbie who's driven the "thugs" around Oakland, and the customers to the hot-spot corners, can tell... in comparison with the "gang" definitions the cops and so on are spewing on the tele...

Most of the Oakland "gangs" are just groups that "came up" together... grew up together, ran together in school... got into fights together... and then got into the dealing scene (though about 5 or 6 years back there was a semi-nihilist crew that was apparently trying to ramp up the violence by robbing various drug crews and what not at gun point... just trying to up the chaos and violence... at least according to what I overheard from a crew of 3 dealers "commuting" to their corner by taxi).

All these attempts to superimpose the gun banning debate over this... please people, stop making generic gang/drug motive arguments drawn from Law Enforcement papers seeking funding, or tv shows (aside from the Wire... that show seemed pretty damned well on target...) for your pro or anti gun arguments.

Ohh, and, just to mention a point, isn't that why the Second Amendment was put into the Constitution? To guarantee the rights of the citizen to a capacity to resist an unjust government?... only now the definitions of "citizen" and "unjust government" seem to be under attack... Maybe the dealers are precisely the ones that the Founding Fathers inadvertently meant to protect?...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. How could that be assault weapons are banned in California?

[Mz Pip]

20. That doesn't mean

people don't have them.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Of course you are right, that means that only criminals have them.

[depakid]

101. No, what it means is other Americans have them- and bring them in

which is why responsible regulation to halt their proliferation has to be done at the federal level.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

173. If they did that they would be criminals, so I'm right.

[slackmaster]

115. The shooter was a convicted felon with an "extensive criminal record"

He was prohibited by both state and federal law from having any kind of firearm.

Very sad story. Too bad the guy wasn't in prison where he belonged.

[marshall]

136. I pray for the suspect's safety

He has stumbled into a horrible situation. Regardless of his guilt or innocence he is a human being and deserves dignity and safety.

[dukefan]

138. WHAT???

"He has stumbled into a horrible situation. Regardless of his guilt or innocence he is a human being and deserves dignity and safety"

Are you serious??? He didn't "stumble" into a horrible situation...he came out of his car with his gun blazing and CAUSED a horrible situation. And he is not a "suspect"....he is a murderer!!! And his being "a human being and deserves dignity and safety"...what about the officers.....they didn't deserve to be treated with dignity and safety??? Were they not human beings....human beings with families....and young children!!!

I was sick to my stomach when I first read what happened in Oakland....and just when I was over it I read something like this from someone like you.....you are unbelievable!!!!

[marshall]

143. He is a human being who has allegeldy done a horrible thing

Something pushed him to such a desperate situation.

[RamboLiberal]

144. Earth to Marshall - the 4 police officers were human beings as well

with families and loved ones.

[marshall]

146. I pray for the families of all the victims

I taught in an inner city school, and I can imagine that many of the kids I taught had lives like the suspect's in this case.

Such a tragedy.

[LooseWilly]

236. when you say "as well", I don't get the feeling you mean an equal comparison.

You sound like one of those people who somehow think that the cops are better human beings than the criminals.

Speaking as a cab driver of 10 years in Oakland, I'd have to say I preferred dealing with drug dealers over police. They knew how to handle a business arrangement (money for a ride), and they withheld their judgements until after they'd interacted with you.

The police, on the other hand... well let's just say that I was pulled over one day because some taxi detail cops "didn't recognize" me. In other words... I was too white to be driving a taxi, so they pulled me over. They then pulled the taxi out of service over bald tires in July, costing me half a days potential income, and they also pulled the old lady fare I had in the car out from under me... and offered to drive her themselves once they'd taken me out of service... not only costing me the $10 in fare that she'd already run up, but the $30 or more that was likely to come when she decided to take a cab across the bat to SF rather than BART... an option she was denied when the police decided that a white guy in a cab was too suspicious to not pull over.
I won't even talk about the times that I was hassled by the police, who then 10 minutes later couldn't spare the time to respond when I wasted my time trying to call them and get their services... money's worth you might even say.

So my response... I hope the bicycle cop who was willing to think about my counter argument that double parking behind a UPS truck on Grand wasn't, in fact, impeding traffic wasn't one of the ones who got hit. I hope that that dude who was working the foot beat around City Center in '06 wasn't one of the ones. I hope that that City Center beat dude who arrested the fare running the bank scam out of my cab (who still owes me $53) but was at least cool enough to let me know what was up with that whole prosecution, I hope he wasn't in the mix.

As for the rest of OPD... well, do onto others as you would have done unto you... MacDonnell... I'm looking at you, you prick.

[Grinchie]

181. Now that he's dead, we will never know the mechanism that caused this event.

I'm pretty sure the shooting of Oscar Grant, a rowdy individual that was shot by an officer while three others were kneeling on his neck has some bearing on the suspects response.

The Oscar Grant shooting caused a great deal of disturbance to the community, and the initial reponse of the Police here protected the officer until indepedent video surfaced from nemerous witnesses to the shooting.

I'm living a short distance away from Oakland, and I can tell you that it wouldn't take much to ignite a race riot. Industry is almost totally destroyed in Oakland, and the services remaining in the bad areas are Police. The Suprime mortage fraud preyed upon the inhabitants mercilessly. People really don't care anymore. The streets are filthy, and no money is reinvested. Society is forcing this class into action at one point or another.

[Pavulon]

183. half assed gangbanger shooting police

is not your model for a class war. This piece of shit killed 4 people because he did not want to go to prison. He should have blown his brains out and saved some suffering.

He shot them because he did not want to pay up for the dirt he did. FUCK HIM.

[cabluedem]

207. I agree. I live in the Bay area too. A few more "Oscar Grant's" and Oakland will be a tinderbox just

waiting to happen. Its still hard to fathom that only ONE man dropped four trained officers in their tracks, however. We need to get serious about gun control, as in "One And Done". One gun-crime and you are done for the rest of your life.

[slackmaster]

246. I doubt that anyone in Oakland other than the bad guy's mom is going to be upset that he's dead

People do understand the difference between this situation and the killing of Oscar Grant.

[Mz Pip]

250. Nope

I was listening to the radio this morning and there were plenty of callers who made all kinds of excuses for what Mixon did, some voicing little or no compassion for the police officers and their families. One woman was asked straight up if she felt any sadness at all for the families and she said "No."

One guy said that the police sign up for this, like it's their fault this happened.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who only view the police in a bad light, no matter what.

[LooseWilly]

239. Uhh, you're taking the media people too seriously, I think

I mean, yeah, there's a lot of rage in the community... but the Oscar Grant shooting is mostly just a recent name to re-focus the rage. Don't get me wrong... recent names to re-focus the rage are a very powerful thing in a city like Oakland... and I don't mean to downplay that... but, from 10 years of driving a cab in Oakland, my guess was that this shooting had nothing to do with that... and apparently some lately info suggests that dude was on parole, for some reason had a gun, and was afraid of being sent back to the slam...
He was mostly just dumb... or he was pretty smart and managed to lose all evidence of whatever he was into since getting out of jail by rather efficiently gunning down a couple of motorcycle cops around 74th and MacArthur.... and then suddenly got dumb again and went to ground in a house/apartment that he could be traced to... and gunned down in by SWAT.
As far as Oakland is concerned.. this is not the stuff of race riots. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's mostly business as usual.. except that a lot of the thugs will be celebrating that dude managed to take out some SWAT... I'd expect a double plus assload of flowers on the street shrine at, what was it?, 74th and Holly?... (always surprised when these things don't trace back to the projects around 92nd and Hillside... those places spooked me even at my most "Travis Bickle" moments...)
Hell... I'd bet that most of the "thugs" around Oakland are actually feeling vindicated now... it's only the politicals that are likely to be looking to use this for anything... race riot or what have you...
Unless things have changed drastically in the year and a half I've been out of circulation...

[Mike Daniels]

252. Mechanism - Parolee who violated the terms of his parole who didn't want to go back to jail

Sounds like a real victim of circumstances to me. I can see why he went and blew away those officers who were about to oppress his freedom.

Sarcasm...

[okieinpain]

249. have to agree. n/t.

[LisaL]

142. Well you can stop praying now.

[dukefan]

145. Marshall...you are praying for the wrong person in this tragedy

You want to pray for a POS parolee who made it his mission to kill as many cops as he could...but not once have I heard you pray for 4 innocent (yes, 4 now because the 4th officer died this morning) men who gave their lives protecting and serving....you are wrong....wrong on so many levels.

[slackmaster]

245. He's dead

It's an unfortunate waste of life.

[Grinchie]

179. Thats right, lock him up for good. Better find out why he got put there in the first place

and fix that part of society that allowed him to get where he did.

[LisaL]

204. The only place he is going to be at is six feet under.

The suspect is dead.

[cabluedem]

103. Yeah, it was a high powered assault-rifle that blew these officers away. n/t

[Mz Pip]

3. Here's an update

from our local news. 2 officers were shot during a routine traffic stop. The shooter took off but was later located a few blocks away in an apartment. The SWAT team came in and the shooter shot 2 of those officers before he was shot and killed.

As of now, 5PM CA time, the 4 officers are in critical condition at Highland Hospital.

[The abyss]

4. Mz Pip Thanks for the update!

[CreekDog]

11. the news is saying they have all died

i've got no words. :(

[qanda]

7. So sad! I hope they will recover.

[deadmessengers]

8. I wonder if it's related to the BART shooting back in January? n/t

[Mz Pip]

19. Seems unlikely

These were Oakland PD not BART cops.

That's a very rough part of town.

[Posteritatis]

13. Now, will we see people condeming the remaining cops for excessive force against the shooter?

How dare they shoot back, etc etc etc. ;P

[Grinchie]

182. We spend tons of money on lethal weapons.

Where are all the non lethal weapons that can incapacitate a suspect? You know they exist.

It could be as simple as drilling a hole inthe door and slipping a hose connected to a gas tank and turning on a valve.

Or maybe a robot that goes in and tasering the suspect. Nah, this was all unnecessary after the first two officers were shot.

[Pavulon]

186. Doofus,

he was shooting at them. Killed two and hit one in the head. So they shot him. Should they just ask nice?

The Russians used gas in the theater event, it killed lots of people. Not viable.

I have never worked in LE but have carried a rifle and understand that when someone is trying to kill you it becomes quite personal that they die first.

Fuck a robot. 4 guys with sub machine guns in proper gear, using tear gas and flash bangs are the correct approach.

Suspect gives up or dies.

[The abyss]

15. I want to know what has gone down here.

Any local info?

Why was this “stop” initiated? Who was the suspect that pulled off this much damage?

Obviously the MSM is waiting for their cue cards.

Anyone out there with a scoop on this?

Several comments about the BART shooting – how is this related?

[Grinchie]

185. Look up Oscar Grant on the Internets

Look at the videos on the You Tube. Look at the reaction of the Community. That's what it has to do with this.

[CreekDog]

22. 4 Oakland Officers Fatally Shot, Gunman Dead

Source: CBS 5

OAKLAND (CBS 5/BCN/KCBS)

CBS 5 has learned that four officers are dead, along with a suspect after a traffic stop led to a massive manhunt in the streets of East Oakland.

It all began with the the fatal shooting of two officers during a traffic stop near 73rd and Hillside Streets, around 1 p.m. Saturday. The gunmen fled and police closed off the surrounding streets to traffic while dozens of Oakland police, California Highway Patrol officers and Alameda County sheriff deputies participated in an intense search for the suspects.

At about 3:10 p.m., a SWAT team confronted the suspects barricaded inside an apartment building close to location of the first shooting. Gunfire was exchanged between the two parties, fatally wounding two more officers, and killing one of the suspects.

Authorities say the Alameda County coroner has been called to Highland Hospital in Oakland in response to the shooting but the hospital is not releasing any information yet. The Oakland Police Department is expected to hold a press conference around 7 p.m. Saturday.

Read more: http://cbs5.com/local/shooting.officer.oakland.2.964784.html?tsp=1

---

I hope this report is wrong and that they have not all been killed.

[geckosfeet]

23. 1 thug with a gun kills 4 trained and probably better armed officers.

WTF. Hope this is not right.

This link says that they (the officers) are critical.
Shootings leave 4 Oakland police officers in critical condition

[depakid]

69. Probably not better armed....

[primavera]

126. Can't be - the NRA assures us that guns save lives

... and the solution to gun violence is for everyone to have as many guns as possible. So in this instance, with everyone armed to the teeth, no one should have been harmed. Quick, pass me another glass of that delicious NRA Kool Aid - reality is interfering with my appreciation of the live saving properties of guns.

[jobycom]

24. Hope it's not right, too. They don't name any sources. nt

[tclambert]

25. CNN says they were just wounded, only one shooter.

Four police officers are in critical condition and a suspect is dead after two shootings in an Oakland, California, neighborhood, Saturday afternoon, police confirmed.

Police received a call around 1:15 p.m. reporting two officers down on MacArthur Boulevard, Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan said.

A manhunt was under way for the shooter when an anonymous caller directed authorities to a building on an adjacent street where the gunman was believed to be barricaded, Jordan said.

The gunman opened fire, wounding two more officers before police returned fire, killing the suspect, Jordan said.

The four officers were taken to Highland Hospital, Officer Jeff Thomason said.

Police said they are investigating whether others were involved in the incident, but don't believe there is another shooter.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/21/california.officers/?iref=hpmostpop

Video public statement from police at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/03/21/BAVB16KU75.DTL&o=1

From San Francisco Chronicle: "We've received four officers in the trauma center," said Patricia VanHook, a Highland Hospital spokeswoman who said no other information was available.

About 100 officers were gathered outside the entrance to the hospital's emergency room, waiting desperately for information about their wounded friends and colleagues. Some of them were wearing SWAT gear, while others were wearing baseball jerseys after having raced from a game.

While the Alameda County coroner was called to the hospital in response to the shooting, information could be slow in coming, Thomason said.

"This is a highly sensitive situation that we're dealing with right now," he said. "We're still trying to notify family members that their family members were hurt."

More at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/21/BAVB16KU75.DTL&tsp=1

[tclambert]

26. Three Oakland police officers killed, one critically wounded after traffic stop, shootout

http://www.mercurynews.com/centralcoast/ci_11968175 says three of the police officers died.

Harry Harris and Kamika Dunlap - Oakland Tribune
Posted: 03/21/2009 06:04:29 PM PDT

OAKLAND - Three Oakland police officers were shot to death and one critically wounded in two separate incidents involving one suspect near the Eastmont police substation this afternoon, law enforcement sources said.

Initial reports from law enforcement sources had stated that four officers were killed. However, police revised that statement a short time ago. . . .

Officers were walking to the substation consoling each other, some visibly crying, to attend a news conference at 4:30 p.m.

[tclambert]

27. San Mateo County Times also says 3 officers dead, one critical

posted about 25 minutes ago. They say Oakland hasn't had an officer die in the line of duty since 2004.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/ci_11967257

[Ex Lurker]

28. The commenters on SFGate are taking the opportunity to

bash Ron Dellums, the people of Oakland,and the city administration in general. I didn't know the Bay Area had so many wingnuts.

[mackerel]

29. I'm getting 3 of 4 officers dead. My ex lives down the

street and he says it's bad over there.

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. Wingnut heaven....huge variety of them.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. SFGate attracts some serious trolls.

Some from the area but some who quite obviously have never been here based on their lack of knowledge.

[CreekDog]

51. SFGate has the worst trolls, I think mostly from outside the area

you can usually tell because for example, when South San Francisco had a murder (first one in a few years) the trolls kept saying we were San Francisco and so forth. folks here know the difference.

but those trolls are incredibly bad.

[EFerrari]

52. They are ug-lee. I don't even read the comments any more. Too gross.

[Liberal_in_LA]

66. It was like a KKK meeting in there!

[EFerrari]

68. I KNOW!

[Mz Pip]

32. Sometimes even I am surprised

and I've lived here since 1969.

Lots of good diversity but there are plenty of extremists on all sides in the mix.

[Liberal_in_LA]

65. The posts were making me nauseous. I fled.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

33. Oakland is a failed state

I live in Berkeley, and I avoid Oakland at all cost. I am from Brooklyn, NY, but Oakland takes thug life to the levels of Philly and Baltimore. I moved out here in July, and this is the first place that I have ever lived where the thugs rob restaurants and the patrons. The stuff that happens in movies happen in real life here. Oakland has 1/20th the population of NY yet they some how are able to reach half the murders that NYC has annually.

Prey for the family of the deceased and wounded officers.

[XemaSab]

43. Oakland's not THAT bad

but I do have to say the scary thing about the restaurant robberies is that they're in a nice neighborhood.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

48. You don't think

That Oakland is as bad as Philly or Baltimore? I moved here about 9 months ago, and I knew this place was different when in one weekend there were 7 seperate murders. That is some outrageous stuff.

And yes, the restaurant robberies are kind of crazy, but maybe it will get the limosine liberals to seriously look at the crime issue in the Oaktown. I mean, the police disuade residents from holding memorials for dead friends/relatives, because the make prime targets for secondary drive bys.

I actually live in Albany, and thank god we have not had to deal with this shit. I have enough drama in my life when I go see the family in NYC, I want my place of residence to be calm.

[XemaSab]

49. Like I said in a different post

I was born and raised in Oakland. Many parts of the city are safe. Many parts are NOT safe.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

54. Yeah

But the bad are very bad. Coincidentally, I work in Richmond CA. Richmond gets a bad rap, but it is hardly as bad as Oakland.

And yes, Montclair and Peidmont are very nice areas.

[XemaSab]

60. Piedmont

is a different city.

[SoDesuKa]

114. It Shouldn't Be

Piedmont is the wealthy part of Oakland, but the residents formed their own city to avoid paying Oakland city taxes. It's another instance of white people shirking civic responsibilities. Henry J. Kaiser brought Black people up from the Deep South to build Liberty Ships during World War II. Then he just dumped them there. Now they're America's own Palestinians - not part of our society, shut out and unable to make independent livelihoods - and subject to the brutality of a police state.

[Grinchie]

193. I lived near Richmond in 1996

I'll never forget New Years eve 1997.

The number of guns being fired off in east richmond sounded like a war zone. AK-47's, Machine Guns, and about a hundred other types of weapons being fired into the air.

Richmond is another area of desperation.

[paulsby]

187. i considered applying to oakland PD

and did a ride-along with them many years ago.

that place is frigging NUTS.

first thing the cop asked when i got in his car was "are you armed?"


i told him no.

he handed me a backup revolver. i was a cop in another jurisdiction (out of state), but i was still kind of surprised.

it was an interesting night.

"oaktown".

[Grinchie]

189. I agree, but there are certain areas that you don't want to be in if you don't have to be.

Like International and Hegenberger in a radius of about 10 miles.

The energy that seethes from the environmnet is terrifying. You can feel it in your body, and everybody raises their defenses instinctively there. Those that live there are in constant defensive posture, causing the reduction of cognitive thought to be severe. Add drugs, Alcohol, Unemployment and you have a powder keg.

Me and my wife drove through that area in late 2007 on a friday afternoon and it was so scary that I couldn't get out of it fast enough. One just got the impression that the exits could close up at any instant. The signals tended to be areas where large groups of people hung out. Cars would park in driving lanes for no reason, and it felt like at any moment, you could be somebodies next meal.

I have a very panic resistant personality, but I trust my instincts, and they were telling me to get the fuck out.

[EFerrari]

44. I was born in Oakland, lived in Berkeley as an adult

and know that this was a mess waiting to happen. OPD has had very serious problems for years and years.

Those poor people.

[inwiththenew]

34. Information on the shooter is coming out

Lovell Mixon, 27

-Extensive criminal history
-Was wanted on a no-bail warrant for violation of his parole, which he was on parole for assault with a deadly weapon.

[slackmaster]

127. Another poster child for stiff sentences for violent repeat offenders

:nuke:

Meanwhile, California prisons remain overcrowded with non-violent drug offenders and financial criminals, and California schools are near the bottom in per-pupil spending.

[Hepburn]

35. OMG....

....:cry:

How horrible! But...how could one gunman get FOUR cops????

[lurky]

38. Did he have a military background, maybe?

I would think someone would need some serious firearms skill to kill 4 cops in a standoff. I assume the cops were wearing vests, so it would be even harder.

:shrug:

[Brooklyns_Finest]

47. You don't need military training to kill someone

When a cop stops someone they do not assume that person has a gun, much less a person looking to shoot them. They got caught off guard. The second shootings are a bit problamatic. They have the guy cornered, but the only way to apprehend him is to go in and get him. At that point he knows he is fucked and is just shooting for his life.

[Corey_Baker08]

104. I Believe I read that the 3 officers were killed as they entered an apartment in which he was.......

held up in. "Around 3:30 p.m. officers got an anonymous tip that the gunman was inside a nearby apartment building. A SWAT team entered an apartment to clear and search it when the gunman opened fire, police said. Two members of the SWAT team were killed and a third was grazed by a bullet", police said.

"Officers returned fire, killing 26-year-old Lovelle Mixon of Oakland," Acting Oakland police Chief Howard Jordan said.

___________________


Still curious as what type of weapon it was. You would think three officers (ecspecially Oakland Officers)entering in an apartment would likely have been outgunned by the subject
with an assault rifle or something similar.

[Joe Chi Minh]

139. Deleted by Joe as too uninformed.

[Grinchie]

195. Last night, the Cops refused to identify the type of weapon.

I got the impression they didn't wnat enyone else to get any ideas of what kind of weapon gives a Swat team two fatalities.

[Archae]

41. Add one tweaker, and a semi-automatic.

[Pavulon]

163. gang banger, felony warrant..

he cant own a gun. btw murder is illegal too. Maybe he forgot about that?

[Renew Deal]

36. If the cops killed 4 armed criminals there'd be 50 posts denouncing the cops

But there's not even one RIP message here. That's disappointing but not shocking.

[EFerrari]

39. Because we don't know the status yet. But thanks for bashing DU

for no reason.

[Renew Deal]

227. Not bashing

Observing

[EFerrari]

251. There were people here who didn't want to offer condolences

if there was a chance that any of these officers could survive.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

45. Did you see post 11?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

67. Your comment offends me, after 5 years on this board, you are my first "alert"

[onehandle]

125. Note all the deleted messages.

And you are correct.

[Posteritatis]

134. To be fair, that was one guy and what was likely his sockpuppet account

But the fact that I wasn't even slightly surprised someone like that would start spewing around here is telling. Ugh.

[Duer 157099]

37. SF Chronicle is saying 3 officers dead, 1 critical

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/21/BAVB16KU75.DTL

[XemaSab]

40. I was born and raised in Oakland

This sucks. :(

[EFerrari]

46. This is really really bad for everyone.

:(

[EFerrari]

42. Prayers and wishes for the community to keep its head right now.

And for the families at this terrible moment.

[krispos42]

50. He took down two motorcycle cops and two SWAT officers

After gunning down the street cops he barricaded himself in a building. SWAT raided, and he killed two more of them before his death.

The SWAT guys have all the heavy body armor and the high-powered firearms, plus all that extra training and equipment.


This guy was good. Would not surprise me at all if he had a military or law enforcement background.



Jeez, normally we lose about a cop a week in the line of duty. That's nationwide. Traffic accidents and assaults, mostly.

This is a month's worth of tradgedy compressed into a spring morning. My heart goes out to the widows and families of these officers.

[EFerrari]

53. Did they have to go in that way? They couldn't have waited

a while to get an advantage? I guess I don't understand the thinking. Dammit.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

55. I wasn't there

but he already shot two people. he is armed and dangerous in a buidling. Would you have rather them stand outside while he shot at them from out of a window, or worse, took hostages in the building? I will assume that the SWAT guys know what they are doing. The fool just got lucky. No special skills needed here.

Maybe the cops should have fired some Dragons and took him out like we took out Sadams boys.

[EFerrari]

59. Saddam's sons were not boys, they were men and we murdered them

instead of bringing them in. That's probably a war crime but, who's counting.

I was just wondering if these SWAT officers needed to move so quickly, not implying they were in error. Why were there only two (three?) of them if this guy was known to be so dangerous? There needs to be an investigation because something went wrong here. It will be the next on the OPD hit parade. There's something seriously wrong in that department and now it looks like not only civilians but their own officers are paying for it.

[Pavulon]

152. A holed up person is dangerous

easy in a war zone, just flatten the building. Fuck Saddam' sons. They had it coming. None of our guys died killing those turds who had bunkered themselves up. win for technology.

As for this little piece of shit, in hindsight, it may have been better to allow swat to toss in flash bangs and put him down while he was blind and disoriented. Or let a guy remove his head at the nose line with a bolt action rifle. He wanted to play gangsta, shame he killed real people in his quest to be an OG like on the tv.

It is difficult to look back and make corrections. However time and ammo are cheap, life is not.

[Paladin]

155. Those Testosterone Injections Are Really Working For You (n/t)

[Pavulon]

159. umm, yeah

common sense. parolee on warrant.

[alcibiades_mystery]

169. ROFL

:thumbsup:

[krispos42]

61. I'm assuming they did standard procedures here

Evacuate the building and secure it so you know there aren't any innocents in the line of fire. Secure a perimeter around the building to keep the onlookers back. Cover the entrances and exits. Snipers on adjacent rooftops/balconies to cover all windows leading into the apartment.

Gather intelligence. Look at building plans, talk to building manager. Use shotgun and/or laser microphones to listen into the apartment for critical information, state of mind, etc. Put spy cameras through HVAC ducts to pinpoint where he is, what he's carrying, how he's dressed, and to check for booby traps.

Try to contact him via phone, get him to surrender or at least determine state of mind, drug use, etc.



However, at some point you're going to have to give the "go" order if the guy doesn't surrender. Dragging it out isn't any good unless you think you can leverage him mentally or emotionally. Although I would have tried tear-gassing the SOB out of the apartment, myself.


Either the guy is an uncommonly good shot or he had a very powerful handgun or rifle. Beat cop body armor is strong enough to stop common handgun bullets; the SWAT stuff is heavier, I think, and probablly could stop some rifle rounds.

[EFerrari]

62. I bet you that didn't happen. I bet they didn't have that kind of prep

or back up. We'll see I guess. :(

[Bacchus39]

124. nope, plenty of officers responded to the scene. you may want to read the story n/t

s

[Ex Lurker]

72. Here are my thoughts on that

All they know is they have an armed suspect inside what is probably a fairly large building with a lot of places to hide--it's not like he's holed up inside a two bedroom bungalow. They probably don't have a real good description of him, nor can they be sure that all the innocent bystanders are out of the building. For all they know he could be roaming around inside killing people. It's a Saturday, maybe they can't get hold of the building manager or blueprints. About all they can do is go room to room and get eyeballs on the situation.

Remember that the SWAT officers at Columbine followed what was then standard procedure and waited. If they had gone in immediately maybe they could have saved some kids. Perhaps that was in the Oakland officers minds. Sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You just have to make a decision, hope it's the right one--and if it isn't, mourn your dead and try to learn from your mistakes.

[EFerrari]

259. You make a good point, Ex Lurker. You have to make the best decision

you can on your feet. That's all anyone can do.

[jkappy]

170. the Big Question--and this the only mention ??

[benEzra]

172. Probably concerned he would get away and/or harm others. (n/t)

[Grinchie]

197. It was a "Get Even" thought process, and they lost.

I mentioned this in another post. There are numerous methods of incapacitating a suspect through non-lethal, and considerably less risky means.

Mistakes were made...

[christx30]

229. I don't know what the layout of the apartment is

But they might have worried that he could somehow get away. Not too hard to bust through sheetrock of a cheap apartment. A desperate man might do something like that (I would at least give it a shot). But I think the thinking was something along the lines of "The sooner we get this guy in cuffs or on a slab the better for everyone involved."

I hope no one on here thinks I'm bashing the police here. But the guy had already shown that he was very good with his weapon, and I'm guessing they wanted to make sure he couldn't hurt anyone else.

[EFerrari]

231. I don't mean to second guess what these officers did.

But, somewhere in my brain which is a mom's brain, I want an explanation of why we lost four officers over this one scumbag.

[christx30]

233. I know, right?

Fact is, none of us were in that room. We might want to say "contain and negotiate" or something like that. But this piece of garbage was very good with weapons, and, from what the pictures, very physically fit. Maybe a flash bang or something like that might have been a better choice in this case, since he was in a closet. But hindsight is 20/20. When you are in the heat of the moment, after 2 of your friends have already been killed and you are angry and scared and want to take this fucker down, you do what seems like a good idea at the time.


The part of this story that makes me mad is the 20 or so people I've heard that were taunting the police at the scene of the murders. Bet if the cops pulled out of Oakland and left them with nothing but the criminals, they would be screaming for police protection.

[EFerrari]

255. What most people in Oakland want is not to be in the middle of a war

between criminals and their PD. Don't lump them all in there. I lived in Berkeley for more than a decade and Oakland has a huge heart and lots of dedicated community people. But like all cities, it also has problems. Normal law-abiding people are caught in the cross fire.

[slackmaster]

247. Perhaps the perp would have made a mistake if they had waited long enough

[EFerrari]

256. Four people are dead. There will be an investigation. We'll see.

[Liberal_in_LA]

63. Swat officers approached the closet door where suspect hid, he shot 2 through the door, nicked 3rd

[krispos42]

70. Thanks for the info; I hadn't seen that yet in the media

He probably had a semiautomatic rifle of some kind, then. Might have had an unusually powerful handgun, like a .44 Mag, but I'm betting on a semiautomatic rifle.

Still, firing blind like that... damn lucky, unless the topography of the apartment was to his advantage.

[LisaL]

141. Well no the suspect just had an extensive criminal background.

I guess he got real good that way.
:eyes:

[paulsby]

188. not true. far more than you claim

nationwide
2008: 140
2007: 189
2006: 153
etc.
line of duty deaths.

far more than one a week.

3 a week would be correct.

source: www.odmp.org

[krispos42]

213. That's at odds with the DoJ

:shrug:


Different methodology?

[paulsby]

217. here's da stats

for that chart.

i can tell you every single officer death at ODMP is vetted and confirmed. feel free to go to the site and check them out.

more than one of them were friends of mine.

the DOJ might be selectively reporting only certain kinds of deaths, like murders (so manslaughters, accidents, deaths during pursuits etc. are not counted)

for example, here's LOD deaths for last year

here's last years stats

2008 Total Line of Duty Deaths: 189
9/11 related illness: 8
Accidental: 4
Aircraft accident: 3
Animal related: 1
Automobile accident: 48
Boating accident: 1
Bomb: 5
Drowned: 3
Duty related illness: 1
Exposure to toxins: 1
Fall: 3
Gunfire: 65
Gunfire (Accidental): 4
Heart attack: 8
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 7
Struck by vehicle: 9
Vehicle pursuit: 6
Vehicular assault: 9
Weather/Natural disaster: 2

[krispos42]

219. Thanks. I saved it for future reference

:hi:

[paulsby]

220. yw nt

[Mind_your_head]

57. Didn't the * kill a cop in Hawaii or something?

Ran over him (or SOMEBODY ran over him....or something WEIRD like that.....)

[Mind_your_head]

64. This officer died watching over/protecting the presidential motorcade.....

It may not be "in the google".....but *I* remember.

Which makes me think about/ask: "is there any good/reliable *histroic" source" upon which to rely these days?

[KamaAina]

228. A-yup. * just had to have breakfast at a different base that morning

it was staying on Hickam AFB, which shares the runways with our civilian airport, but it just HAD to have breakfast down the street at one of the officers' housing complexes. :eyes: Wouldn't you know, it rained out there that morning (but not in town, all of three miles away; I remember how surprised I was at that) and the motorcycle cop lost control. :cry:

edit: And why did Honolulu Police Dept., rather than MPs, have to pick up the tab (finanacial and otherwise) for its security, anyway? :shrug:

[Grinchie]

198. The cop lost control of his motorcycle and was thrown into a curb.

Hurrying along for the * that needed quality time with Lingle or CINCPAC no doubt.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earcandle]

73. There is a particularly distainful way of being that eggs a crowd

sometimes, I do believe, intentionally.
Maybe paid to? 

Other times, perhaps driven by impulse, 
not at home yet.  

people need homes. 

[earcandle]

74. I am so sorry for the loss of the force and family of the officers.

Oakland can be bad. 
I wouldn't want to live there. 

But I do have friends who have homes there
and they are fun to visit.  It is a lot more
green and sweet. You just have to know where
to go and not to go. 

I keep it as simple as I can. 

Why is the first post ablaze? 

[christx30]

107. When I heard about this story earlier

the number stood at 3 cops shot, followed by the bad guy. This is the first headline with another dead cop.
Was I just not paying attention or did I actually see that earlier?

[cabluedem]

75. 3 officers dead, suspect killed in Oakland, Calif.

Source: Associated Press

3 officers dead, suspect killed in Oakland, Calif.

By TERRY COLLINS and LISA LEFF, Associated Press Writers Terry Collins
And Lisa Leff, Associated Press Writers

March 21, 2009

Unidentified law enforcement officials embrace outside the emergency entrance to AP – Unidentified law enforcement officials embrace outside the emergency entrance to Highland Hospital in …

OAKLAND, Calif. – A man wanted for violating his parole killed three officers and gravely wounded another in two shootings Saturday, the first after a routine traffic stop and the second after a massive manhunt ended in gunfire, authorities said. The gunman was also killed.

Two officers were shot in the first incident just after 1 p.m. after they stopped a suspect's vehicle in east Oakland, said Oakland police spokesman Jeff Thomason.

The suspect fled the scene on foot into a nearby neighborhood, police said, leading to an intense manhunt by dozens of Oakland police, California Highway Patrol officers and Alameda County sheriff deputies. Streets were roped off and an entire area of east Oakland closed to traffic.

At about 3:30 p.m. officers, acting on an anonymous tip, found the suspect barricaded inside an apartment building, police said.

Police said the suspect, 27-year-old Lovelle Mixon of Oakland, fired an assault rifle at officers who came into the building to arrest him. Two officers were killed and a third was grazed by a bullet, police said.

Acting Oakland police Chief Howard Jordan said police returned fire, killing Mixon.

The slain officers were identified as Sgt. Mark Dunakin, 40, who was killed at the first shooting. The two members of the SWAT team who were killed at the second location were Sgt. Ervin Romans, 43, and Sgt. Daniel Sakai, 35. Officer John Hege, 41, is in grave condition.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090322/ap_on_re_us/police_shot_ca

---

We need to get these cop killer assault-rifles off of the streets of America, NOW!

Where is Obama on this subject?

[Duke Newcombe]

76. I think improved communities that don't breed criminality...

...and better mental health services would do more good than "assault weapon" laws that criminals don't obey anyways.

My thoughts and prayers to the families of the officers and the perpetrator.

[cabluedem]

78. Is there some reason why we cant have both? n/t

[krispos42]

86. Yes

One will help people, one will not, while also removing the Dems from political power for another generation or so.


How about better mental health services AND drug legalization?

[geomon666]

90. One day cabluedem.

One day someone is going to figure out how to get rid of these guns. And it's not going to start at the bully pulpit or anywhere near the capitol. Their going to figure out, the way you start a movement is through kids, just like these insane fundies. You start educating these kids about these guns from the earliest ages you can think of and eventually these kids will move into seats of power and then finally these fucking things will finally be gone and hopefully this culture of death that we have here will end with it.

We won't be around to see it but hopefully your forebears will.

[Hannah Bell]

240. forebears = the bears that came before you.

it ain't the guns.

[CountAllVotes]

77. Pres. Obama likes the guns

or so he says.

I agree, get these god damned assault weapons OFF OF THE STREETS of America! They = nothing but big ugly bad trouble!

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

:dem:

[cabluedem]

79. These assault weapons are not hunting rifles, so I dont know why they are allowed to be owned. n/t

[villager]

80. The NRA has succeeded in fetishing them among the "any gun, anywhere" crowd...

n/t

[krispos42]

87. Point 1: there is no mention yet of the weapon used

All the body armor in the world won't save you from a head shot with a pistol.

Point 2: The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting.

Point 3: Gun ownership is an individual right. As such, the government doesn't "allow" them ("assault weapons") to be owned, the government has to show a very good and specific reason why the right to own them has to be eliminated.

[Demobrat]

95. Gun rights are more important than the lives of the victims of gunfire.

We decided that as a society long ago. What are three lives compared to the right of gun manufacturers to profit from the violence? Nothing.

[primavera]

128. "3 lives"? Try 30,000.

Every year. In this country alone.

[benEzra]

177. Not from rifles.

There are less than 500 rifle murders annually.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

[slackmaster]

120. The old federal AW ban failed because there is no way to distinguish "AWs" from sporting arms

They are in fact sporting arms that were created by modifying military weapons so as to comply with the National Firearms Act of 1934.

[BrightKnight]

260. The perviously banned AK-47 apparently makes an awesome cop killer.

With a little mod kit you can really rock and roll. I love the smell of freedom in the morning.

The AK-47 just looks scary because of its many cosmetic features. I think that it was originally designed for hunting bunny rabbits and squirrels.

[Pavulon]

263. Really, I write machine code

I am familiar with the m16a2 and m4. There is no conversion kit to make any replica rifle sold in the us fully automatic select fire.

One could make a weapon dump its mag with a trigger pull but that is useless. And a felony.

You think this moron cares about that law.

[slackmaster]

272. You are not very well informed

Modifying one to a selective-fire configuration is far from simple. It's not something any Joe Sixpack can do.

[obamachangetheworld]

309. AK-47 is the finest gun i ever fired

The weapon gets knocked sometimes for being less accurate than M-16s, but this is more due to poor maintenance than anything. My experience with the weapon was that at even moderate ranges, firing close to a round a second, it was pretty much point and click. The recoil didn't throw the barrel significantly, and the gun was well balanced.

It's a bit scary to think of this weapon in the hands of anyone who is intent on killing cops, like the Hollywood bank robbers. But, unless police start wearing the heavier military grade bullet proof vests, any rifle bigger than a .22 ruger will most likely penetrate the armor.

[BrightKnight]

261. The AK47: Full Auto Conversion for Dummies

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero/books/AK47_Full_Auto_Conversion_for_Dummies.pdf

LOL - Don't do anything I wouldn't do!

[Pavulon]

264. Will not work..here is the link for tatp, have fun

nahh, you can youtube that. Just dont explode yourself with household chemicals. BTW, mixing it up is a felony.

You think this pile of shit cares about gun law, realy?

[slackmaster]

273. Just as I said in my other reply a minute or three ago

Not something any Joe Sixpack is going to be able to pull off.

(I also have enough gunsmithing and machine work knowledge to say that the linked piece is bullshit. Anyone who attempts that procedure as written WILL ruin the receiver.)

[benEzra]

176. Because they ARE target rifles, and more people own them than hunt.

About 3% of U.S. murders involve rifles, BTW. Most murders involve handguns or knives.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

[krispos42]

88. They're not on the streets, they're in people's homes.

ALL murders from ALL rifles run about 3% of the annual total of mayhem and misery in America. Lever-action, bolt-action, single-shot, and semi-automatics.

Now while it is true that the arbitrary and perjorative term "assault weapon" actually includes a variety of rifles, shotguns, and handguns, it is most commonly applied to rifles such as civilian-legal AK-47s and AR-15s.

The problem we have here as a country is that the ratings-driven media does about as good a journalistic job with guns as they do with, say, about everything else. We know that the media failed and continued to fail on Iraq, election fraud, the Russian-Georgian military conflict, the McCain campaign, and a whole other raft of issues. What makes you think that they're doing any better job with the gun issue? Remember, "AK-47" is a buzzword that gets ratings and draws attention.

[MichaelHarris]

93. you are so

completely wrong in just about every point you made.

[krispos42]

97. Feel free to refute n/t

[MichaelHarris]

184. where do I start

the gun was identified even before you made your claim, crimes with assault weapons is on the rise, 15 to 20 murders this month alone. The 3% stat is not accurate since local police reports involving state crimes do not necessarily have to report weapon types to the federal government. Now before you say the FBI keeps records, which I'm sure they do, they don't read over every single non-federal arrest. Only a fool would believe that, read the tenth amendment someday, try to get past the gun one.

[krispos42]

192. The reports that I read, from the SF Chronicle and CNN,

did not state the weapon. There was some speculation, whether from the police or the reporter is unclear, as to the type of weapon used.

Myself, I consider it likely it was a semiautomatic rifle, most likely something commonly called an "assault weapon" by the general public.

I've been out all day and I don't know if the police have report the type of weapon used.



I'll also note that there are, on average, 46 murders a day in America. The "15 to 20" you cite as being due to use of an "assault weapon" for the month of March is 8-10 hours of normal activitity out of the 520 hours that have passed so far this month. Call it 9 hours.

9 ÷ 520 = 1.7%, which I believe was the point of my previous post.

[MichaelHarris]

194. so

46 murders a day in America, what do you want to compare that with, the birth rate? I showed you the reason the 3% number is low, refute that based on states rights and the 10th amendment.

[krispos42]

201. The 3% number is for all rifles

of which guns like the AK-47, SKS, and AR-15 are a subset. This is based on federal surveys done by the DoJ and on the FBI and Bureau of Justice Statistics websights. If you're going so simply wave a hand and say "these are wrong", I feel something a bit stronger than the 10th Amendment is in order.



46 murders per day in a country with 300,000,000 people. Proportionally, that's equivilent to New York City having one murder per day. Is one murder per day in NYC considered "extreme"?

[MichaelHarris]

202. what's

your "acceptable" number?

[krispos42]

212. Hmpf.

Nobody's ever asked me that before in that manner.



It's a good question.





I think where it is now is actually pretty good, considering how RW we are. We've come a long way from 1992... down about 40%.



Nations like Canada, Sweden, Norway, and Japan... they seem to have been able to keep their homicide rate between 1.0 and 2.0 per 100,000 per year. I feel that this marks the "background" murder level. Our is currently about 5.4, down from 10+ in 1992. So ours is basically the background level with a thick layer of economic- and drug-related murder added on top.

Our current rate in historical perspective is actually pretty reasonable. I think that under current circumstances it will go up slightly due to the economic pressures, then up more as victims of NCLB and free-market mercenary capitalism become adults and turn to crime over become sales clerks. However if we make significant economic changes, such as becoming more protectionist, legalizing drugs, strengthening unions, etc., we can probably knock it down to less than 4.0 within a generation.


Past that, my crystal ball grows dark. The western Europeans have had their social democracies for over 60 years. That's a hell of a long way to look into our future!

[Name removed]

81. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jobycom]

82. This is a tragedy, and I'll express condolences and hope for the one survivor.

And I'll join in the debate about assault rifles in a few days, after a period or mourning and respect for the dead has passed.

[MrSlayer]

83. Condolences to the fallen heroes.

This is a terrible tragedy. Best wishes to Officer Hedge.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SoDesuKa]

89. Didn't Take Long, Did It?

January 1st, cops in Oakland kill a Black man in his 20's. March 22, a Black man in his 20's kills a bunch of cops. Of course it's related; how can you say it's not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNX6-og7pBo&feature=related

[HardWorkingDem]

91. Get real....

and I suggest until you find some information stating such facts, then let people offer condolences in a polite manner.

[SoDesuKa]

96. Bad Blood

Over the years, there's been plenty of bad blood between the police and the Black community. I don't know if the Oakland cops are still describing domestic disturbances with the code Tom Nora Adam, meaning "typical n*____ activity." Routine police harassment and beatings brought about the rise of the Black Panthers. Huey Newton became a celebrity criminal after he killed an Oakland cop in a traffic stop similar to the one yesterday.

The January shooting is likely to have returned Oakland to the polarized state it was in back in the 1960's. I'd be surprised if there was no relationship between the Oscar Grant killing by BART cops and yesterday's events. As to your suggestion to wait until people have offered condolences, I'd say that this is a good idea for people with strong sympathies for the police. I'm not one of those people. I'd rather comment on news when it's current.

[my2sense]

102. I hope all sides will remain calm

I'd hate to see anymore escalation and bloodshed - we are living in dangerous times.

[EFerrari]

92. Now is not the time for that.

[slackmaster]

121. You are race baiting - There is no connection whatsoever

Read the article and see who this shooter was.

[SoDesuKa]

238. That's Your Interpretation

We have different interpretations, that's all. There's no need for you to start name-calling.

[slackmaster]

244. My post did not include any name-calling

I criticized your post for its content, not you.

If I had said "You are a race baiter", that would have been name-calling and prohibited by the posting rules.

:hi:

[CreekDog]

150. Oakland cops didn't kill anybody on January 1st

get a clue.

It was a BART police officer that did that. Oakland PD has nothing at all to do with it.

[liberalhistorian]

165. Yeah, but some people around here don't let facts and reason

get in the way of their good old-fashioned police-bashing, no matter how bad the criminal was or how innocent the slain officer(s) are. To some people around here the police are always at fault and the criminal is never at fault, no matter what the facts are.

Four men simply trying to do their jobs, and a very dangerous job at that, have been senselessly and cruelly murdered. Now is not the time for race-baiting or arguments over guns or prisons-vs.-schools debates or anything else like that. Now is the time to mourn those men and to think of their families and friends. Period.

[Grinchie]

200. Semantics. They wear virtually identical uniforms.

And shift back and forth between departments at will.

Now if the BART police wore clown suit uniforms, I'd agree with you, but since they are almost identical to Oakland PD, I don't see any difference, and the actions of one department reflects on the rest, simply due to brand identity.

They are COPS, regardless of subspecies, and they all pay for the errors of others.

[CreekDog]

232. speaking of clowns

i think we've got your identity pegged. :eyes:

[SoDesuKa]

237. Read It Again

I didn't say "Oakland PD." I said "Cops in Oakland." It's the same court system, the same District Attorney, and presumably the same policies.

[CreekDog]

248. So the felon shot and killed 4 cops out of altruism?

no you didn't say it but you are certainly implying it.

[tomreedtoon]

94. Change of topic: will there be a riot?

In the 1980's, a police arrest caused a riot in Orlando in the black community. It was not the arrest so much as the hyping of the incident by the news media.

Well, I'm sure things are pretty tense in Oakland right now, and the news media are even more willing to stoke fear of blacks and riots - real good for ratings. So, people in California, your opinion: will the inner city be on fire in the next few days? I'm saying yes right now.

[cali]

100. I'm not for CA. but no. The black community isn't stupid.

the dead criminal asshole murderer opened fire on the cops during a traffic stop.

[Taxijazz]

98. Problems in society can't be solved by force against a public that may already be suffering

There is plenty of hatefulness and violence in media, and to say that it has no effect is like saying advertising doesn't work. First of all we should advertise something else--The content of media should not be focused on fear and buying a certain kind of sneaker any less than it promotes favorable social consequences, but messages that lead to good behavior don't draw the attention that media thrive on. Having guns is not as harmful as having thoughts of violence, because you can have violence without guns. Secondly we should realize that police forcefulness doesn't affect public safety as well as good communication could. People only obey laws if they agree, and it's time to find agreement rather than believe that more conflict will bring about some desirable conclusion. Thirdly, if we continue to ask for more strictness and punishment we can only expect people to act so desperately as to create a public safety hazard--high speed chases and police shootouts, etc. With these things in mind if we can't find a way to rehabilitate people, or help them find a way for the first time in their life to become a productive member of society, then we had better find some other way to segregate people than just throw them in prison. If people were treated like they had a disease rather than were possessed by demons maybe we could find a cure. You can't beat a person with a stick and expect that it will make them grow brains. There are serious problems in contemporary society that cannot be solved by force against a public that may already be suffering.

[Loudmxr]

99. I hate to agree with Firehouse Dave but Oakland is a good reason for owning a firearm.

My friend Jason once had an argument with his GF over purchasing a weapon. During the argument a volley of bullets went through his house. He got a gun. The GF got out.

He eventually moved, got married and got rid of the gun.

[slackmaster]

122. Keeping people like Lovelle Mixon off the streets would be a better way to fix the problem

If he hadn't had an "assault rifle" he would have used something else that would have been equally effective, like a shotgun.

[liberalhistorian]

166. Bingo-that about

sums it up!

[Grinchie]

206. I'd much rather find out how this kind of monster is created in the first place.

[slackmaster]

243. I'm very interested in that too - Ounce of prevention, etc.

Public schools provide an excellent potential venue for catching young psychopaths before they become sexually mature (which is when they typically become dangerous to society).

[Corey_Baker08]

105. Tragic News This Morning-Yet I don't Buy this as a Revenge killing for the BART Officer....

Sad Sad News though... I don't understand the whole revenge theory relating to the BART officer who murdered the young man a month or so back. I mean these are two Unrelated Cases with the only common denominator being the race of the two individuals--meaning that I honestly don't believe that the individual who murdered the 4 officers today had pre-meditated the killings in any way shape or form to seek justice for the BART tragedy that is still fresh in alot of people minds nonetheless. Todays' murderer could have made the decision to kill those officers for any number of reasons in which case we may never know.

We do now know that the murderer was on parole and he had a warrant out for his arrest for violating that parole. And he was on parole for assault with a deadly weapon. I believe a more logical reason for the murders that occured could have been something as simple as the suspect financial status, or state of mind, or if he was in possession of anything he knew would violate his parole and put him back in prison, we can do nothing but speculate, but maybe the suspect just didn't want to go back to prison so much that he was willing and desperate enough to become homicidal, like I said we may never truly know but I truly believe in my opinion that this was not a revenge killing for the BART murder, yet the acts of an individual who truly felt as if he had nothing left or no other choices than to take those innocent lives of men doing the job they are paid to do. Hey may have actually believed that he could try to escape from them or quite possibly have acknowledged after shooting the first officer at the first scene that he was going to spend the rest of his life back in prison so why not go out in a blaze of glory knowing that you wasn't going to make it out alive. Kinda like a murder-suicide yet the suspect was instead killed by an officers return fire before he could have the chance to commit suicide.

Horrible, Sad Story and I feel for the families of everyone involved including the murderer because the family had no control over it and I pray that the media does not begin to focus on his family in a negative way, they are not to blame for his actions. How devastated they ALL must be!

[SoDesuKa]

112. Oakland's Political Realities

The Oscar Grant killing was not an accident and it didn't happen in a vacuum. Black lives are not considered valuable in racist Oakland. We all saw how nonchalantly the BART cop drew his gun and shot the young man as he lay face down on the ground with three cops on top of him.

The history of Blacks in Oakland goes back to Henry J. Kaiser, who recruited them from the Deep South to build "Liberty Ships" during World War II. When the war was over, he didn't move them back; he simply left them there. Today, the descendants of those people are like the Palestinians - no jobs, but they are frequently arrested, beaten and imprisoned.

Mixon knew the motorcycle cops were going to call the police van once they had him under arrest. From there he was going back to prison, possibly for a long time. With the Oscar Grant killing as backdrop, Mixon realized that his own people would regard him as something of a hero if he engaged the police in a violent struggle. Such are the political realities of Oakland.

[ohio2007]

117. That sounds like post Katrina New Orleans politics

is it a fair comparison of two significant national events ?

.....history of Blacks in Oakland goes back to Henry J. Kaiser, who recruited them from the Deep South to build "Liberty Ships" during World War II. When the war was over, he didn't move them back; he simply left them there.

Was life in the deep south that much better then life in the land of the golden gate ?

[Neecy]

147. I disagree

I doubt this thug gave a second's worth of thought to Oscar Grant before he opened fire. He was wanted on a parole violation and didn't want to go back to prison, period. And it wasn't the Oakland police department who murdered Oscar Grant - it was the BART police and everyone in Oakland knows the difference.

This isn't to say that there isn't a police problem in east Oakland - there is. There's also drug trafficking, prostitution and gang activity. These officers worked in one of the roughest, most violent cities in America to help keep safe the many law-abiding citizens in east Oakland -the majority - from the violent criminals who would shoot your mother for ten bucks in her purse.

[Grinchie]

203. I don't think its revenge for Oscar Grant either, but a result of the perception

that cops will use deadly force at will. If that attitude takes hold, then any sort of rational thought is thrown out the door. Add to that drug induced paranoia, and you have a ticking time bomb.

The Oscar Grant did a lot to move a great barrier to any trust that officers may follow the law or use reason when dealing with suspects. It just escalated the measures the truly desperate will use to gather an advantage. In this case, his advantage was shoot his way out of a traffic stop.

[bird gerhl]

106. The Associated Press reported Saturday that people lingered at the scene of the traffic-stop shootin

g. About 20 bystanders taunted the police.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us/22oakland.html

[saigon68]

108. Sounds like the Citizens love the Police there

[SoDesuKa]

110. Lots of Hostility

The downside of a politicized police force is that ordinary criminals become political criminals. We don't know how much of a real criminal this Mixon guy was; we do know that the two motorcycle cops that stopped him were taking him back to prison.

It's not unusual for Black guys to get an extensive rap sheet. They're more frequently stopped, more frequently searched, and more frequently run through the system. Mixon's conviction for assault with a deadly weapon may have been reduced to brandishing if he'd been a Caucasian. In any event, the January shooting of Oscar Grant didn't happen in a vacuum. The police in Oakland are accustomed to inflicting violence on young Black guys. This is not unique to Oakland; the same thing happens all over, even in cities with a liberal majority.

There's lots of hostility between Oakland's cops and its Black citizens. This goes back to the 1940's when Henry J. Kaiser recruited Blacks to work in his shipyards. After the war, those people were simply abandoned. To this day they are somewhat like the Palestinians - deprived of livelihoods, they live in a security state.

Nobody knows what to do about Oakland. Ron Dellums, the current mayor, was once a firebrand liberal Congressman but today he's an old man. There are too many Republicans in California to undertake the kind of social change needed to give young Blacks a sense of ownership in Oakland. The white cops stop them, harass them, arrest them and beat them. Once in prison, these young Blacks get more punishment, abuse and beatings.

I knew this was going to happen when I watched how nonchalantly the BART cop shot and killed Oscar Grant. He didn't even reflect on his behavior. He just went ahead and did it. Oakland's political establishment was very slow in arresting that cop. He was out on bail and was fleeing the jurisdiction when he was apprehended.

Perhaps now there will finally be meaningful political change in Oakland.

[nbsmom]

158. You are oversimplifying your oversimplification

Oscar Grant was an anomaly only in that he hadn't died as a result of a drive by or gang activity (FAR more frequent occurence in Oakland than BART shootings, but the media really has stopped covering since it's not really 'news' unless it involves an officer).

The Bay Area is diversity defined -- but truly, only in Oakland have they been seeing armed robberies at restaurants.

This Jon Carroll column from last week kind of addressed the whole situation:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/19/DDJF16IANG.DTL&hw=Jon+Carroll&sn=005&sc=339


And no, the two motorcycle cops that stopped Mixon were not necessarily taking him back to prison -- even in Oakland, traffic cops only pull over motorists for suspected _traffic_ infractions. They are typically not expecting to deal with motorists who are wielding assault weapons.

And Mehserles (the BART cop) was simply an officer poorly trained in the use of his Taser gun. There is a reason why properly trained officers wear their Tasers on the other side from their firearms.

FWIW, you don't get meaningful political change until everyone participates. It's been a long time since the majority of people in Oakland have participated.

[Grinchie]

208. Yeah, tough mistake, move on, nothing to see here

Geez nbsmom, you're buying into a "Honest Mistake" alibi. So what if he mistook his Pistol for a Taser. Are we trianing monkeys to go through motions like any other trained animal, or are we training rational human beings that have the ability to recognize and react to situations they encounter?

Mehserle scrwed up and the repercussions were slow and lethargic. The community has every right to be outraged by this. I am outraged by this, and the recent video of the 15 year old uppity teenage girls that got the shit beaten out of her outrages me as well.

The police are responsible for public safety, but when they become as violent as the opposition when inappropriate, one has to examine the cause of this irrational use of force. They will use this sort of violence on relatively harmless people, but are surprised when the people that are really a threat adapt to their own self serving interests.

I don't buy it. If everyone is not responsible for their own actions, then we are living in a broken society. The SWAT team didn't have to put themselves in harms way either. They chose to do this. If they did not have a choice or say in the decision, that we are living in a broken system that thrives on Authoritarian orders issued from on high, allowing inappropriate actions to occur.

[my2sense]

109. I hope the media

does not play this racial tension up. I'd hate to see this escalate into something worse with more lives ruined or lost.

[Tim01]

111. Taunting the police at a murder scene

Police shoot a person in that neighborhood= riots.
A person in that neighborhood kills 4 police officers= celebrations.

I've heard police don't dare go into this area unless in huge numbers.

[SoDesuKa]

113. Taunting the Police

The Oakland Police, like many other California police departments, is like an occupying army when officers enter Black communities. Black people live with this year in and out. The Rodney King beating wasn't unusual in itself; what was unusual is that it was recorded on film. And even then we were cautioned not to misinterpret the video. But we all saw what happened - the cops chased some guy and beat the shit out of him.

We need political change to solve our own "Palestinian" problem. Blacks are mostly shut out of participation in the larger society, especially those who live in Oakland. Remember the "ebonics" controversy of 10 years ago? It's because the descendants of unskilled emigrés from the Deep South were never actually part of Oakland. They were brought there and dumped.

[Tim01]

225. My black friends would

probably be insulted by you. Black people are people. Sink or swim.
I am not a loser, and I do not hang out with black losers.

They are just as capable as white people.(News flash.)

[reggie the dog]

153. they ought to send in the national guard in that case

[Tim01]

226. You mean because the 1st amendment has been suspended? nt

[reggie the dog]

253. not at all

but the average resident is probably scared shitless by the types of mobsters who taunt police ivestigating a murder.

[Tim01]

269. Ok, I see what you are saying.

But they can't just call up the national guard because there is a bad part of town. And I am sure you are right that the honest folks in that area fear for their lives. But the only legal way to put armed people in that area is to use police, and that costs lots of money. Money that people in other areas of town are not willing to spend. Same situation all over the country. People are now willing to lower their quality of life to protect people who are poorer than they are. Mostly it is the same for dems or repubs when it comes to this.

[slackmaster]

116. That sounds like Oakland all right

People in emergency services call it "Beirut by the Bay".

[ohio2007]

119. politicians will 'throw money' at the problem and all will be right again

:sarcasm:

Wonder how many of those police did time walking the beat in Baghdad et el ? At least in the US, the IED threat is minimal

[liberalhistorian]

167. If true, that is really sick and disgusting.

And it will certainly do nothing at all to improve relations between minorities and law enforcement. If they're cheering a career thug criminal senselessly murdering four policemen, then, I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for that and it's beyond sickening.

[wartrace]

118. Why was Lovelle Mixon on the street?

He had an "extensive" criminal history for which apparently he did very little time in prison for. He an arrest warrant out for assault with a deadly weapon at the time he killed these officers. It is time to stop throwing people with non-violent crime convictions in prison so we can lock up people like Mr. Mixon.

Many people are going to blame "assault rifles" for theses deaths. The facts in this case don't support that blame assignment. Mr. Mixon shot the first two officers with a handgun, the other two were shot with an "assault rifle". Mr. Mixon was a convicted criminal who was barred by law to own ANY firearm.

I place the blame for these deaths squarely on Mr. Mixon & the criminal justice system. Had he been in prison where he belonged this never would have happened.

[slackmaster]

123. California prisons are so full of drug offenders and tax criminals, there isn't enough room

For violent psychopaths.

And that's also the reason there isn't enough money for our schools.

[ohio2007]

129. Criminal Teenaged Girls Sent To Adult Prison To Scare Them ( John Walsh video )

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c55_1237732627

odds are more prisons will be the net result despite education attempts to break the chain.

[mulsh]

130. I'm an Oakland native and still live here.

I spend lots of times in all sorts of neighborhoods through out this city. I had a studio in West Oakland for 20 years, 7th & Wood. My niece lives in East Oakland, 92 & Bancroft-worse area than where the shooting occurred. I live in the Glenview district.

Oscar Grant was gunned down by a BART cop while he was laying face down on the ground, obviously, from all the video evidence, restrained. Yesterday's murderer was involved in a routine traffic stop and decided to shoot his way out. An anonymous tip lead the police and swat team to his apartment. Most likely the tip came from someone in the neighborhood. the incidents are very different.

What I've heard about the shooting from friends in this city is mostly sadness. sad that 3 cops are dead, sad that a kid who made lots of bad choices ended up dead. I haven't heard anyone particularly angry about the perp being shot. I haven't heard all that much anger about what the police did in this incident.

[ohio2007]

132. the "traffic stop" would have turned up guns the perp wasn't allowed to have.He would have gone back

to jail when they searched his car .

Nobody in jail would have faulted him for trying to shoot his way out
while people on the outside want to fault the police for stopping him ?

Just a vicious cycle of blame game.

[depakid]

156. He was on parole for ADW and had a no bail warrant out!

The guy was going to prison irrespective of whether he had firearms or not.

[Pavulon]

162. These are your body stackers. Little banger wannabee

pieces of shit. Generally they kill each other in shitty places you or I will not visit. They make news when they kill real people. When we do we lock our doors and drive out.

These are the soldiers in the drug war. They dont give a FLAT FUCK about a gun ban or drug ban. You think this little fucker is going to pay attention to that law that bans him from owing a gun as a felon. Nope.

You fix this problem your ignorant positions on firearms are quite moot. No crips or bloods in zurich.

[depakid]

196. Like most gun (or assault weapon) proliferation advocates, you fail to take responsibility

for the predictable and inevitable consequences of the policies you tirelessly support or oppose. If it weren't this guy- it'd have been the guy in Alabama. Or Portland Oregon. Or Southern California. Or take your pick among the mass shooting over the past 3 months or so.

The 1st step toward fixing anything is to figure out "gee, maybe we reckoned wrong."

[Pavulon]

199. No those are outliers. The body stackers

are not real people. They dont kill people in midtown, Greenwich, or other high income places.

Do you REALLY FUCKING think we can ban weapons? Do you think this little piece of shit would care?

So have the balls to amend the Constitution or stop your bullshit. You going to ban the 1st and 4th next?

Man up and get your votes.

The days of stupid politicians passing stupid law that has no impact on crime are over. Gun law is a shuck and jive show here and does nothing to address root cause.

Hence no murder in Greenwich and none in zurich.

[depakid]

218. What is this? The invasion of the body stackers?

Oakland has a history quite different that other places you may have been. Like most places, it has it's own stories that often- as human beings are often wont to do- they sometimes get embellished. One such story was related to me by an assitant professor at a Northwest University (seemingly in earnest- though who can say?)

He maintained that, as a student he was there in the summer of 1989, when Huey Newton was shot down. I'll grant him one thing- he was vivid in his descriptions. He said that a person came over and put their cup down to gather the blood on the street. After that, some others came over too- with their own cups.

His description was pretty accurate of the crime scene, too.

Now, I don't know the truth of the matter- or whether his deal was meant as a metaphor or what not. Yet it was a powerful story- and I think in some ways, an illustrative one.

[Hannah Bell]

241. that *is* different. oakland people all carrying cups, i mean.

i guess they carry them so's to always be ready for the inevitable blood in the streets. but *how* do they carry them? in backpacks, purses, hanging from belt loops?

yes, the story's illustrative of - something.

[CreekDog]

149. because the suspect did the shooting

was armed and so forth.

cops aren't allowed to shoot back? :wtf:

[liberalhistorian]

174. Apparently not to some people around here. And I'm still trying

to figure out just what the fuck Rodney King has to do with all of this.

[Grinchie]

210. As I recall, Rodney King and the Verdict

Caused riots on par with the Watts riots. L.A. was utterly in chaos, and much of the community was destroyed.

Thats what he has to do with this. Rodney King, Oscar Grant, try to ignore it if you must, but it's the reality of the community.

[liberalhistorian]

230. I'm not "ignoring" anything. I'm saying that that is absolutely

no excuse whatsoever to gun down four officers, period. Sometimes bad people do bad things and they need to be held accountable for it. Period.

[liberalhistorian]

171. What the police did? Why the hell would there be anger when

he was shooting at and killing the cops? What the fuck do you expect them to do in that case, hold hands with the guy and sing Kumbaya? Give me a fucking break. He was shooting at and killing/injuring cops and you expect them to do nothing? You express no remorse whatsoever for the murder of the cops but whine about what they did to the murdering thug? Jesus Christ, sometimes I wonder what people drink around here.

[Starry Messenger]

131. That is really awful.

I just moved from Oakland to the peninsula to be closer to my job, but I considered Oakland to be home for many years. The city is going through terrible times and the lack of leadership isn't helping. It's a beautiful place. It deserves better.

[Supply Side Jesus]

133. Its a Dangerous job being a cop

Veteran cops have to be careful doing a "routine" stop. They get complacent and forget officer safety precautions. Per FBI stats veteran cops are killed more often on duty than rookies. But that shoot out with the SWAT guys...I want to know what he had regarding weapons and training. A large influx of gang members in military is a real problem. I recall a member of Nuestra La Familia, who was an ex-marine shot 2 officers. The video is terrifying seeing him use military tactics with an assault rifle against 2 cops who had no idea what hit them.
Then sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent it.

http://www.chieftain.com/articles/2009/03/22/news/local/doc49c5d1c9583fb689044271.txt

My thoughts to the fallen, and hopes for the injured.

[panzerfaust]

135. Ah yes, the Armed Citizen

Simply cannot have too many guns on the street.

Makes us all so much safer.

[Pavulon]

154. That piece of shit is not a citizen

guarantee he is multiple felon who has no legal ability to own a gun. probably on parole or should be locked up something else anyway.

Bet my last dollar that was not a legal weapon.

[depakid]

157. Of course he was a citizen

and he "benefitted" from lax US gun laws that have allowed these sorts of weapons to proliferate for years.

[Pavulon]

160. Fuck that

he was on parole and wanted on a warrant. That makes him state problem. He sure the FUCK should not have a gun. He benefited from some asshole who decided to rehabilitate him. He should be locked up, better yet he should have put that sidearm in his mouth and blown his brains out. Done the normal people he impacted a favor.

[depakid]

190. I agree he shouldn't have had a gun- but the reality is that America's flooded

with them, due to easy access- and that of course means that someone in his position- or a mentally unstable person will end up with them. And eventually- repeatedly, there'll be incidents like this.

[Pavulon]

191. I have never been to a country

where I could not have obtained some illegal thing for the right amount of money. The problem is not the object. It is the gangbanging little piece of shit who used a weapon to kill people. People in his position could give a fuck about the rules.

Not a problem in finland.

[depakid]

209. Finland- or as you like to say, the Swiss are much more homogenous societies

with cultural mores that go back many centuries- and indeed, millenia. The comparison is inapposite.

Also, as a matter of simple economics and sociology- generally speaking, the more costly, difficult or unacceptible an illegal thing is to obtain, the less of it you'll find around. In America, guns as an abstract object seem for some to give intrinsic pleasure to own, to finger and play with (as opposed to being used as a tool for things like hunting). That's as much a culturally reinforced deal as anything- and can be worked out of a society. Compare and contrast that with alcohol, tobacco and various drugs that have a straight up physiological response. Tougher- though still possible through various means to ameliorate- by which I mean, lessen the dysfunctional aspects.

We're not talking prohibition here.

[Pavulon]

215. Canada too

lots of guns fraction of the murder rate. Canada is a new country, like the us.

Culture is one issue, poverty, and the lifestyle choices made are another.

[depakid]

221. You're reaching

[Pavulon]

222. I recall a Michael Moore movie on the subject

Canada has similar distribution of firearms, fraction of the crime.

[depakid]

223. Oh come on now

You know just like I do.

[Pavulon]

224. Yeah I know that points a finger

at us drug law, gang culture, poverty and other issues. Same guns, different mindsets.

This is really and people make it complicated.

[krispos42]

214. Yup, sure does

Rights cost. What was the talking points the righties used to take away other constitutional rights?

"To protect American lives".

[Grinchie]

211. He also benefitted from a prison education too

The School of Hard Knocks as it's called. Looks like he graduated with flying colors.

[Kadie]

137. 4th Officer Dies

Fourth Oakland officer involved in Saturday's shootings dies
Matthew B. Stannard, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, March 22, 2009

(03-22) 12:15 PDT OAKLAND -- An Oakland Police officer shot Saturday during a series of gunbattles that claimed the lives of three other officers died this morning, Oakland police said today.

Motorcycle officer John Hege, 41, had been in grave condition after being shot during a traffic stop at about 1:15 p.m. Saturday. He was pronounced dead at noon today, according to Oakland police spokesman Jeff Thomason. Hege's fellow motorcycle officer, Sgt. Mark Dunakin, died at the scene of that shooting.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/22/MNCT16L53S.DTL&tsp=1

[emilyg]

140. So sad. Condolences to the families and co-workers.

[Neecy]

148. a couple of these officers worked security at the Coli...

The A's players and staff were reeling from news that four Oakland police officers were shot and killed on Saturday following a traffic stop a mile away from the Coliseum. Two of the officers had worked games at the Coliseum, providing extra security, escorting players and officials and handling some road block duties.

The team will hold a moment of silence before today's game against the White Sox and there were discussions about whether the players might honor the officers in some way on their uniforms. I'm told there will be more formal recognition of the officers during the home opener on April 10, with some kind of ceremony.

Chicago manager Ozzie Guillen is wearing "OPD" in silver lettering on his cap today and he spoke at length before the game about how devastated he was by the news of the officers' death because he has such great respect for law enforcement and military members.

UPDATE: The A's just put out a release about the officers. "Not only did we have a business relationship with some of these officers but a personal one as well. They were fixtures working our games and some also served as team escorts. Our hearts and prayers go out to their families. We appreciate the job that they did, as we do all members of the Oakland Police Department.''

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/athletics/detail?&entry_id=37317

[reggie the dog]

151. And we wonder why the cops

often have a quick finger on the trigger in the USA.

[mvd]

161. Police backing off report of 4th officer's death, but he is brain dead

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/police_shot_ca

What a tragedy. :cry:

[mackerel]

164. My heart goes out to the families and to Oakland.

Oakland try as they may, just can't seem to get good press.

[mvd]

168. Philly has the same problem

I don't feel like getting into a gun argument here - I've made my support for some reasonable additional controls known, though - I just hope the atmosphere between police and residents improves.

[liberalhistorian]

175. Indeed. For some things, there are

no words. :cry: :cry:

[Grinchie]

178. All 4 have died according to KTVU.COM

I think that this is the dilemma of turning police into a pseudo military force, heaviliy armed and know to use extremely brutal techniques on just about anyone they have dealings with.

Their is no dispute that recently we have seen the police forces use unnecessary force and brutality in situations where it was uncalled for. While I think this behavaior is meant to instill a sense of healthy respect for Officers in general, it has a polarizing effect on citizens who get the impression that they could get shot, beaten up, tasered or arrested for breaking a low that they are most likely unaware of.

This tension caused by the Police in the general public is real, and it trickles down to the environment the police work in every day. I don't envy the cops. In fact, I question the kind of person that could ever endure being a cop. The unending paperwork, and the fallout from the brutal fascists that exist within the system has to be severe. The cops adapt to it and become automatons, sharing a comradery with cops that they could never share with friends of family.

It's amazing that one never hears of PTSD when it comes to the Police or ex-Felons. You know it has to occur, because they see or experience first hand such inhuman shit go down all the time it has to affect them. Nobody ever speaks out on the horrors that occurs in the prison system, except for Hollywood which glorifies the Murders, Gangrapes and Sadism in a way to create revulsion and horror as a means to instill a sense of fear in the citizenry, a deterrant if you will. It's taken for granted, and used everywhere without any mention of the severe mental illness that can be induced by forcing someone to cope in this environment. Just imagine the non-violent offender being plunged headfirst into a system like this, without any care by the jailers who only see bodycounts as profits.

I want to see the rap sheet of the 26/27 year old, Lovelle Mixon that allegedly did all of this. I want to see what jail systems he's been in. I want to see the overall costs associated with his incarceration, and compare it to the education he received.

He was able to destroy 160 years of aggregate life in a few hours. What kind of upbringing did he have? What part of society allows the environment that created this individual to be created in the first place?

We can no longer treat criminals the way we do. The days of the penal system al la Papillon are over, yet we still use them. It's very sad.

[Pavulon]

180. I am sure he is aware murder is illegal

yet he does it. The thug life is all over. it is advertised all over and these fools buy in.

I am SURE he has drug convictions and violent crime to go with it.

This happened in a shit hole community. You or would not live there given a choice.

The fact that this does not happen in Greenwich ct is telling.

Stupid drug laws, breeds stupid punk kids, and then we all have to live with it.

[The abyss]

205. Thanks to all for comments and insight!

Good stuff from all!

I guess one of the lessons learned is that the police are not invincible Rambos, although many act that way. A second lesson learned is that the shooter didn’t have to be a “Rambo”, he was just determined to take out as many as he could before going down. Really no different than Ma Barker and her boys or Bonny & Clyde. In essence the criminal class will not pay a lot of attention to any law, it usually goes that way.

Assault Weapons, a military classification that is neither here nor there, were defined in the late 1940s via extrapolation studies that picked apart warfare tactics over a period spanning both world wars including the Spanish Civil War. It identified a class of weapon all participants had attempted to develop but was idealized by the MP43/44 and shortly after developed by the Soviets into the AK47 series.

The 2nd amendment of the US constitution never had anything to do with either hunting or crime, nor self-defense. It had to do totally with the acknowledgement of a power the people would always have to stand toe to toe with a renegade federal government. Unfortunately, we the people, gave up most of that power in 1934.

[Grinchie]

216. I agree, but Americans for the most part don't have the juevos to stand toe to toe

Would you?

Honestly, their is no way a rational person would ever want to take on the state, especially when they are so huge, well funded and equipped.

The only thing left is passive resistance, and even then, I doubt if many Americans would be able to survive through it, mainly because as the systems break down, and those in power decided to force and unwilling public to do it's bidding and remain subservient to the norms of society, they would relent.

The current goal of Society is to separate everyone into a self absorbed individual, becasue they are easier to manage and control. This is why the Government absolutely hates Unions. Collective bargaining is extremely strong, but it only works if everyone agrees to support the group.

Globalization is a way of fragmenting the labor of the world into discrete chunks that can be kept uninformed and uneducated as to how badly they are being scrwed.

[depakid]

242. This is just the sort of cowardly, juvenile non-sense that leads to problems

Let me say that again.

Cowardly, juvenile non-sense. With a dose of ignorance and bizarre analogizing.

[Tiggeroshii]

254. This is why we shouldn't have guns so easy to purchase...

At least one of the reasons.

[Pavulon]

257. I am sure his was purchased legally

just like whatever drugs he was selling or other dirt he chose to do. All illegal, guess that did not stop him. Wonder why?

[slackmaster]

258. Please spell out your idea for making not "so easy to purchase"

Without infringing on the right of good people to buy them.

[Tiggeroshii]

262. Whose to say that the person in this story wasn't a good person?

It is arguable at least, however, that had a gun not been available to said person, the cops would not have been shot.

[Pavulon]

265. I do, I say he should have chugged antifreeze if he could not do time

blown his brains out, hung himself, taken 300 Tylenol, or tied a cinder block to his leg and jumped off a pier. Faced his choice like a decent person.

I say he is a bad person and should have taken his miserable life before killing 4 people. I think your statement is so fundamentally stupid that it can not be formed by an adult or person mentally competent to stand trial.

You think this asshole shot people just because he found a gun. He carjacked because he found a gun and had to do it?

Really? He killed 4 people doing their job.

Fuck him, if there is a hell hopefully he burns, if not hopefully he took rounds in the chest and had time to realize he was walking talking shit while he bled to death in a closet.

edit grammar

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

266. Hear Hear!

I pray that monster suffered before he breathed his last.
Rest in peace all fallen Officers.

i knew one of them personally.

[Tiggeroshii]

267. That's a very bitter, judgemental and fundamentally flawed statement in itself.

You say this more or less out of bitterness oh "he shot 4 people. He must be a fundamentally bad person." As if there aren't stages of bad, as if he gave such an action loads of thought before committing it. Your judgment of one person's action lacks the consideration of everything else the person might have done. What might've troubled him, how he might have hurt or helped people around him.

I swear, your preconceptions of what good or bad are is so lacking in extensive thought or any sort of introspection on your own part, the guy could have cured cancer and saved millions of people but because he shot four cops he might as well be "walking, talking shit while he bled to death in a closet."

[Pavulon]

270. He has dna on a rape, 4 murders, carjacking and potential other murder, POS

motherfucker, I stand by that. He is cancer. Who knows what made him that way mommy, the evil drug scene, or play station.

Right now he is a piece of shit and if was hit by a bust last week the world would have been a better place.

[Tiggeroshii]

275. And I stand by the fact that had he not had an automatic weapon available to him, he would not have

committed four murders as a last ditch effort to avoid jail.

I would say he's a piece of shit and an asshole, and the world's a better place without him. Lord knows he knew exactly what he was doing. But the man was a criminal, his murders were impulse, a part of his job, more or less and it's all he probably knew.

I'll bet he wasn't a psychopath, and I'll bet anything he had regret. Maybe I'm wrong, but generally truly evil, bad people are locked in insane asylums much earlier on, and commit murders on a far more regular basis.

[Pavulon]

279. Had he not had a cock, he would unable to rape...

come on. You think you can ban your way out of this. Think again. How many calls you think it would take you to get a hooker at your house. Dope, coke? Yeah, bans really work. They are the look good feel good easy choice.

Where do you get he had a machine gun anyway?

I could give two fucks about his mindset. He should have locked up and nothing this piece of shit did reflects on any person who legally owns firearms in the us. Or a cock. for that matter. How do people just not go through the day raping people?

[obamachangetheworld]

312. People are born with cocks, not AK-47s

I think we could probably reduce gun violence significantly with blanket bans, but it would piss lots of people off.

[slackmaster]

282. If he'd been in prison where he belonged, he wouldn't have had any firearms available

And the rest of us would have our civil rights intact.

[slackmaster]

268. The part about him having prior felony convictions

For assault with a deadly weapon (a firearm, BTW) and grand theft auto.

:eyes:

It is arguable at least, however, that had a gun not been available to said person, the cops would not have been shot.

Guns were not LEGALLY available to him.

So, what's your solution, for keeping guns available to you and me and not to people like Mixon?

(Mine is keeping known violent offenders in prison.)

[Tiggeroshii]

274. Mine would be enforcing the current gun laws and not having fully automatic weapons available

to anybody that could easily kill four officers with the ease of two pulses. Obviously this was a weapon that was illegal, and obviously had he not had it(and rather had a hand gun) he would not have been able to kill the four officers with such ease and lack of attention. It could also be argued at least, that had he not had a semi automatic, he could not have killed all four people whether he wanted to or not. I doubt his intention was to kill everybody he was shooting at, and was more along the lines of "oh shit, I'm on parole, I'll go to jail for a long time. This is all I can do now."

[Pavulon]

276. Due Dilligence (google) is your friend

machine guns have been regulated since 1934. A legal AK variant or M16 starts at 20,000 and requires significant background checking. Only one ever used in a crime EVER was an off duty police officer. Pretty sure CA does not allow any title 3 ownership.

Either way this piece of shit did not have any legal right to own a bb gun. Any firearm is capable of causing instant death when fired into a persons head. He could and should have just blown his brains out.

SO ban every semiauto in the US. I mean that is smarter than actually fixing root cause. At least you can feel like you are making a difference.

[Tiggeroshii]

278. Enforcing is the key here.

More effective laws that actually lead to this enforcement, might also be a part of it.

[Pavulon]

280. You will do more time on an NFA

violation than manslaughter or rape. It is enforced.

[slackmaster]

283. Fully automatic weapons are not widely available in this country

They are very tightly regulated, and have been for 75 years.

I haven't seen any reliable source saying that he had one anyway.

[benEzra]

285. He DID use a handgun. The first two officers were killed with an ordinary pistol.

The second two were killed with a common semiauto (e.g., non-automatic) rifle--an SKS, if local news reports are accurate---not an "automatic weapon."

http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/ci_11978822

[Pavulon]

271. Guess we should ban his cock, for the Rape he has dna on

I mean it was there, so he had to rape with it.. Some people use it legally others to commit rape. The human shit that walk among us dont care about silly bans. They just do what they do.

Cant regulate you way out of this problem. This problem will take more than smoke screen gun laws that impact people who actually give a fuck, follow the law, and are citizens.

[Tiggeroshii]

277. So how did he get ahold of an automatic weapon so easily?

For a convicted felon like himself? Did it have something to do with all the good citizens that give a fuck?

[Pavulon]

281. Can you link to this full auto thing?

I would assume him being a piece of shit criminal he stole it. I assume you mean semi automatic and are ignorant of the difference.

Why does this not happen in Greenwich ct or zurich. People have access to weapons there?

Root cause is not an easy cosmetic gun law.

[Tiggeroshii]

286. They are in a way the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx-9jDLGyUY

[slackmaster]

291. Bump-firing and aiming are mutually exclusive

It's a good way to make noise and waste ammunition.

[benEzra]

296. Not even close.

They are in a way the same thing.

Not even close.

Bump-firing is inferior to even semiauto, lever, or pump-action fire, never mind full auto. It is useful for making noise when all you have to hit is a giant berm, when you have plenty of time to get set up, you don't have to move, and the goal is to empty the magazine without necessarily hitting anything. There's a reason why it's solely a YouTube gimmick, even though semiauto firearms capable of bump firing have been on the market since the late 1800's.

See post #294 for why bump firing is less lethal than just about anything else. At any distance, someone with a Civil War vintage Henry carbine will clean a bump firer's clock--even a lever-action gives you a faster first shot, faster hits on all shots, higher probability of an incapacitating hit, and can shoot while moving. And bump firing against a modern 12-gauge, a pistol, or a self-loading rifle? Bad idea.

Tell you what---if you participate in paintball, you and a friend get a couple of semiauto paintball guns and protective gear and stand 15 or 20 feet apart. Have another friend yell go, and on signal your friend moves in fast and tries to mark you with aimed fire, and you try to stick your thumb in your jeans and mark him center-mass by bump firing before he marks you; first center-torso hit wins. I can predict the outcome.

[obamachangetheworld]

302. I can think of a tactical situation where bump firing would be useful

Imagine you are a criminal who is about to be apprehended by police, and you have time to prepare as the suspect in Oakland did.

You grab your semi-automatic SKS, illegally outfitted with a thirty round clip, considered to be an assault rifle in california, but with the expiration of the brady bill is no longer considered one in the rest of the country.

You stand in a corner facing the door and hold the weapon at your hip waiting for officers to burst through the door, and when they do, you use the bump fire method to unload 30 rounds of ammunition in less than two seconds, covering a wide spread and hitting several officers, who while trained and ready for an exchange of fire don't have time to react to large number of rounds fired per second. Now most of the bullets wouldn't hit their target, and some might simply graze targets, but some would land and cause major injury.

Now I don't think the Oakland suspect bump-fired his weapon, I'm guessing it was illegally modified to fire full auto before he acquired it; I just want to illustrate that aiming difficulties don't make bump fire tactically useless, in fact, even an M-16 firing more than 3-round bursts results in aimed bullets landing in a fairly wide area.

[benEzra]

308. That would be far less effective than what this murderer actually did.

Imagine you are a criminal who is about to be apprehended by police, and you have time to prepare as the suspect in Oakland did.

You grab your semi-automatic SKS, illegally outfitted with a thirty round clip, considered to be an assault rifle in california, but with the expiration of the brady bill is no longer considered one in the rest of the country.

You stand in a corner facing the door and hold the weapon at your hip waiting for officers to burst through the door, and when they do, you use the bump fire method to unload 30 rounds of ammunition in less than two seconds, covering a wide spread and hitting several officers, who while trained and ready for an exchange of fire don't have time to react to large number of rounds fired per second. Now most of the bullets wouldn't hit their target, and some might simply graze targets, but some would land and cause major injury.

(emphasis added)

Some might land and cause major injury. And they are unlikely to be the first ones, and getting vital hits on multiple moving targets would be about as likely as winning the lottery, IMO (and don't forget that an SKS will not penetrate NIJ Level III body armor). Bump firing would be far less effective than what this murderer actually did. I wish this murderer had stood in the open and tried to bump fire, because two more officers would be alive if he had. (BTW, I don't think this rifle was full auto, and over-10-round rifles were *NOT* banned outside of California by the 1994 Feinstein non-ban.)

At any range, unaimed hip shooting from an un-indexed firearm is slower and less effective than shoulder-pointed or coarsely aimed fire, and the fact that you have to float the rifle in order to bump-fire it makes it even worse. Sliding an entire rifle backward atop your thumb to fire it is always going to be slower than pulling a trigger, and you cannot do that fast enough to beat someone of equal preparation who has a rifle on the shoulder, already pointed downrange; even if you make the first loud noise, you will not make the first A-zone hit, or the second, or the fourth.

BTW, you cannot bump-fire 30 rounds from an SKS in "less than 2 seconds" even if you managed to float the rifle perfectly; the bolt doesn't cycle that fast, and since the trigger also has to reset before the next shot can be fired (unlike an actual full auto), the actual rate of fire even if you do it perfectly is significantly slower than the cyclic rate because trigger reset lags the cyclic rate.

Have you actually shot a carbine at close-range targets against a shot timer, and counted only vital hits? It is NOT like the movies. Hip shooting, even excluding bump firing, may be a good way to make noise and look cool on YouTube, but not a good way to actually hit anything quickly. Remember that in the movies, they shoot blanks or CGI and the "hits" are created later in editing/post-production.

BTW, here are a couple of YouTubers bump firing SKS with a 30-round magazines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVHnw7wdsY0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsT_NAZ5xuE&feature=related

and note both the stance and the time.

In case you didn't see them above, compare that to a 12-gauge pump shotgun in a IPSC match (especially pay attention to the speed of transitions between targets, and realize that each time the shotgun barks, it's shooting 12 or more .33 caliber projectiles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrjZ4enV008&feature=rela...

Shotgun and aimed carbine in a 3-gun match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww10nixp0Kw

9mm pistol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEBdXZKiLz0

Bump firing is vastly inferior to regular semiauto or pump-action firing, never mind full auto.

[obamachangetheworld]

311. Yeah, I'm sure you're right

Just sayin' is all.

[benEzra]

298. I did a little YouTube-ing myself...

and compare the bump-firing video above to someone competently running a 12-gauge pump shotgun in a IPSC match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrjZ4enV008&feature=related


Shotgun and aimed carbine in a 3-gun match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww10nixp0Kw


Ordinary 9mm pistol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEBdXZKiLz0


...and consider that EACH time a 12-gauge shotgun fires, it is throwing either eight 9mm (.36 caliber) projectiles, twelve .33 caliber projectiles, twenty-one to thirty .24 caliber projectiles, or a single .729 caliber slug.

[benEzra]

284. There is no indication at all that he used an automatic weapon.

He used an ordinary pistol for the first two murders, and apparently the most common non-automatic centerfire rifle in U.S. homes (SKS) for the second two, if press reports are to be believed.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/ci_11978822

As Dunakin was walking back to the car, Mixon stepped out and began shooting with a semi-automatic handgun, hitting Dunakin and Hege, police sources said.

But the ex-con wasn't done. He ran around the corner to his sister's apartment and waited — SKS military assault rifle (sic) ready — for the officers he knew would come after him.

The SKS is not an automatic weapon. My wife owns one (a 1952 Tula).

[EFerrari]

287. That's weird. Last night CH 2 was saying "something like an AK 47".

I don't know anything about guns so have no frame of ref.

[benEzra]

290. A lot of reporters don't know how to tell. Photos of an SKS and a civilian AK:

SKS (non-automatic):




Civilian AK lookalike (non-automatic):



Neither one of those is an automatic weapon; all automatic weapons are tightly controlled by Federal law in the USA and for practical purposes are restricted to police/military only.

They are similar in that they are both non-automatic civilian rifles firing the same ammunition (7.62x39mm, a little less powerful than .30-30 Winchester) at the same rate (1 shot per trigger pull). The front sight and the gas tube look a little bit similar, and a lot of reporters are too gun-404 to tell the difference. (The above SKS is my wife's, and the AK is mine, FWIW.)

[Tiggeroshii]

292. Why isn't this enforcement the case at gun shows?

Just one of the cases where yes, automatic weapons can be easily bought and sold without essentially any control

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/16/close_the_gun_show_loophole/

[benEzra]

295. The BATFE *aggressively* enforces the Title 2 provisions of the NFA at gun shows and everywhere else

The BATFE aggressively enforces the Title 2 provisions of the National Firearms Act, at gun shows and everywhere else. A violation is an automatic 10-year Federal felony, and the BATFE interprets the law such that merely possessing or illegally transferring the parts to construct an automatic weapon is considered the same as actually possessing one.

Attempting to sell any post-1986 automatic weapon to anyone other than the military or a law enforcement agency is a 10-year Federal felony, period. Wealthy collectors can get permission to possess a limited number of pre-1986 collectibles, and the procedure is as follows:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m

(M15) What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?

ATF Form 4 (5320.4) must be completed, in duplicate. The transferor first completes the face of the form. The transferee completes the transferee's certification on the reverse of the form and must have the "Law Enforcement Certification" completed by the chief law enforcement officer.

The transferee is to place, on each copy of the form, a 2-inch by 2-inch photograph of the transferee taken within the past year (proofs, group photographs or photocopies are unacceptable). The transferee's address must be a street address, not a post office box. If there is no street address, specific directions to the residence must be included.

If State or local law requires a permit or license to purchase, possess, or receive NFA firearms, a copy of the transferee's permit or license must accompany the application. A check or money order for $200 ($5 for transfer of "any other weapon") shall be made payable to ATF by the transferor. All signatures on both copies must be in ink.

Fingerprints also must be submitted on FBI Form FD-258, in duplicate. Fingerprints must be taken by a person qualified to do so, and must be clear and classifiable. If wear or damage to the fingertips do not allow clear prints, and if the prints are taken by a law enforcement official, a statement on his or her official letterhead giving the reason why good prints are unobtainable should accompany the fingerprints.

Forward the completed application and appropriate tax payment to the Bureau of ATF, P.O. Box 73201, Chicago, IL 60673.

Transfer of the NFA firearm may be made only upon approval of the ATF Form 4 by the NFA Branch. If the application is approved, the original of the form with the cancelled stamp affixed showing approval will be returned to the applicant. If the tax application is denied, the tax will be refunded.

Upon approval of the ATF Form 4, the transferor should transfer the firearm as soon as possible, since the firearm is now registered to the transferee.

(26 U.S.C. 5812, 27 CFR 479.84-86)

BTW, that Globe piece is by a professional gun-ban lobbyist, John Rosenthal of Stop Handgun Violence. Take it with the same dose of salt you'd use for an NRA press release/guest editorial.

[Tiggeroshii]

288. bump fire an sks and it's just as deadly at close range.

Which was I think the proxmity about where this particular sks was fired. See my link above for step by step detail on how to do so...

[benEzra]

289. No, because bump firing makes it impossible to aim effectively.

This guy managed to do what he did before being shot because he was shooting from prone, behind concealment. Can't bump-fire from prone even if you could aim.

I guarantee that at 3 yards, shooting off a timer, you bump fire and I'll fire an aimed double-tap, and I'll get 2 A-zone hits on an IPSC target before you get any.

[Tiggeroshii]

293. Whether this was a factor or not in this current situation

isn't it at least a little naive to think that bump fire doesn't increase the deadliness of this weapon substantially at close range? The rate the bullets arre coming out is enough to tear a person's arm off, and the size of the bullet doesn't help change that fact either.

[benEzra]

294. No, it would substantially decrease it, and here's why:

isn't it at least a little naive to think that bump fire doesn't increase the deadliness of this weapon substantially at close range?

No, the effect would be to substantially decrease the effective lethality, for several reasons.

(1) Odds of achieving incapacitating hit(s) are reduced, even at 3 yards, compared to even a coarsely aimed double tap.

(2) Time from initiation of movement to A-zone hit is greatly increased, even if you do get lucky and make the hit. Try it yourself with a shot timer and an IPSC target, and don't count hits outside the A-zone.

(3) Bump firing requires that the shooter be in a more or less static position; you can't scramble off the X and bump-fire at the same time, making you a static target for the guy who isn't bump-firing and therefore hits you first.

The thing is, you can bump fire pretty much any self-loading civilian firearm manufactured in the last hundred years. If it were effective, it would be common and serious shooters would train to do it effectively. It is cool range demo if all you have to hit is a berm, can stand still, and take all the time you need, but as a means of using a firearm for defensive OR offensive purposes, it would be quite ineffective.

FWIW, I shoot competitively with an AK, against the clock, often against IPSC targets at very close to moderately close range (2-20 yards), so I'm not speaking completely hypothetically here.

The rate the bullets arre coming out is enough to tear a person's arm off, and the size of the bullet doesn't help change that fact either.

See above. The bullets aren't coming out fast enough to put two bullets on the same spot (even a regular AK full auto won't do that), and it is an intermediate-caliber, low-energy rifle to start with.

[Pavulon]

297. Where are you getting information

I don't think you have posted one factually correct sentence yet.

[Tiggeroshii]

299. It's a matter of selective reality, apparently

For whatever reason(and this is pretty indisputable), 90% of the fire arms attained from criminal activity in Mexico were purchased inside the united states according to US and Mexican law enforcement officials.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-guns10-2008aug10,0,3357395.story?track=rss

Now this fact alone is demonstrative as to how well fire arm laws are enforced and whether they should be tighter. I'm guessing if most of the drug cartels in Mexico rely on the US for their armament, it's not because we enforce our gun laws too well. And if foreigners can attain weapons with such ease, it shouldn't be too hard to conceive that an American citizen with a conviction on his record would be able to attain it through some way, legally or illegally as a result of the enforcement and focus of gun laws.

[Pavulon]

300. Yep you are way off

so much crap. so little space to take it apart.

Most weapons come from their army. You go to war with an ar15 when you can get an m16 from you own corrupt government.

What you are describing is already illegal, if true. So what is your suggestion?

[Tiggeroshii]

305. Very nice.

So intuitive and thoughtful a response you gave.


:sarcasm:

And no, what I am describing is not illegal, and has nothing to do with legality if you even looked into the facts the least bit. It is a general fact that leaves much to be considered about the way we handle fire arms in this country. Nothing else.


"if true"?

Do we not trust the LA Times any more? Or every other mainstream source that cited the same statistic?

[benEzra]

301. A lot of news outlets fail to distinguish between the small-time gun commerce in Mexico

and the military arms and ordnance that the cartels are using.

Because it is so difficult to legally buy a gun in Mexico, there is a thriving black market where otherwise law-abiding people go to purchase guns (just like the market for cannabis in this country). Most of the guns that end up in the hands of Mexican citizens, and probably the average criminal in Mexico, probably come from the States. These would be ordinary handguns, with a few non-automatic rifles and shotguns thrown in.

The cartels, however, are using machineguns, rocket-propelled grenades, hand grenades, and other military arms and ordnance that are NOT available on the U.S. civilian market, but a lot of news outlets blur the distinction.

The LA Times is starting to wake up get their facts straight, though. A newer article than the one you posted:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,7497626,full.story

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles (sic) and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiautomatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

[obamachangetheworld]

303. The Article you are referring to

Says that the Mexican drug gangs get weapons such as Grenade launchers, etc., from the south of Mexico. But reputable sources indicate that semi-automatic assault rifles are cheaper and easier for mexican gangs to acquire from sources in the U.S. than other places.

[benEzra]

307. But the high-profile shootings the media are playing up involved AUTOMATIC WEAPONS,

not non-automatic U.S.-market civilian guns.

Again, I have no doubt that a few U.S. civilian non-automatics are flowing south with the handgun trade. But the automatic assault rifles are not coming from the U.S. civilian market, because they are not available on the U.S. civilian market.

[Tiggeroshii]

304. I realized there is an increase in purchases south of mexico for the weapons you pointed out.

But the statistics still show a lack of much to be desired in terms of how we handle things. Semi-automatic or not, they still kill scores of people, and they are still far more accessible by people who shouldn't access them(this being determined by the fact that it has happened). If guns were not accessed, multiple people would not be killed at a time -as is happened in the op, and the incidence of gun violence shows that the rate that guns are purchased should ultimately be far more limited than it already is.

I am not a fan of the second amendment, obviously. And there is no empirical evidence you can show me that tells me that owning a gun should be any more than a privilege. Not a right.

This of course is my point of view, and we come from different angles and that probably won't change. But I do want to point out that I appreciate the tenor of your argument, and effort to maintain civility in terms of providing thoughtful information for the debate. You have not at all stooped to ad-hominems and I appreciate it :)

[benEzra]

306. You have also been civil, and thank you.

FWIW, I believe the conflation of the small-time underground gun market in Mexico (U.S. civilian guns) with the cartels' possession of restricted police/military-only hardware (automatic weapons, RPG's, grenades) by some pro-ban advocates is intentional.

Whatever one's views on U.S. gun laws, the Mexican cartels are NOT getting automatic assault rifles, grenades, and explosives from the USA unless they are getting them from (1) theft from the U.S. military or National Guard, (2) theft from U.S. police departments, or (3) theft of U.S.-supplied weapons from the Mexican government/military. And many of those weapons are not even used by the U.S. military or police forces, e.g. RPG's or former Warsaw Pact machineguns and automatic assault rifles.

[obamachangetheworld]

310. You Frakkin' Cylon's Mother!

If we ban Assault rifles, how will we defend ourselves from Cavell and the base ships?

[chatnoir]

313. SF Gate: Slain Oakland officer's organs save four men

Slain Oakland officer's organs save four men

(03-25) 15:32 PDT OAKLAND -- Even in death, Oakland police Officer John Hege has saved four lives.

Hege, who was among four officers killed Saturday by a gunman in East Oakland, has given renewed hope to four men. One now has Hege's heart beating inside him. Two others have his kidneys and a fourth has the 41-year-old officer's liver.

Hege made it be known that if he died, he wanted to be an organ donor. Officials said Wednesday that his action had meant a second chance for the four men.

More: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/26/MNSR16N0JT.DTL

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Dozens march for Mixon, against police

(03-25) 20:36 PDT Oakland -- About 60 people marched and rallied in Oakland on Wednesday to condemn the police and honor Lovelle Mixon, who was killed by Oakland police after he fatally shot four officers Saturday.

"OPD you can't hide - we charge you with genocide," chanted the demonstrators as they marched along MacArthur Boulevard, near the intersection with 74th Avenue where Mixon, 26, a fugitive parolee, gunned down two motorcycle officers who had pulled him over in a traffic stop. He killed two more officers who tried to capture him where he was hiding in his sister's apartment nearby.

The protest was organized by the Oakland branch of the Uhuru Movement, whose flyers for the march declared, "Stop Police Terror." Many marchers wore T-shirts featuring Mixon's photo, including a woman identified by march organizers as Mixon's mother. The woman declined to comment and gave her name only as Athena.

Lolo Darnell, one of Mixon's cousins at the demonstration, said, "He needs sympathy too. If he's a criminal, everybody's a criminal."

More: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/26/MNDD16N9VP.DTL

[all.of.me]

314. Hege was a graduate of my daughter's school.

An announcement was sent out. He was class of 86, and everyone remembered him in a positive light. How sad.

[chatnoir]

315. A selfless man who wanted to help up until the very end

In the article it says he was a former Hayward HS teacher as well.

How unbearably sad. My heart goes out to his family. :(

Thank you for sharing.

[benEzra]

316. "If he's a criminal, everybody's a criminal."

Hmmm. He apparently raped a 12-year-old girl at gunpoint, and is a suspect in as many as 6 other rapes. He carjacked someone with a gun. He is thought to have previously shot and killed a man who owed him money.

I don't understand the thinking that says "if he's a criminal, then we all are."