Air France plane disappears from radar screens

[Turborama]

Source: Guardian (UK)

Aircraft travelling from Brazil to Paris with 228 people on board has not arrived in French capital and has vanished from radar screens, authorities say

Angelique Chrisafis and Mark Tran
guardian.co.uk, Monday 1 June 2009 11.26 BST (6:26 EST)

An Air France plane travelling from Brazil to Paris with 228 people on board on its way has not arrived in the French capital and has disappeared from radar screens, a spokeswoman for the Paris airports authority said today.

Flight AF447, an Airbus A330-200, left Rio de Janeiro at 7pm local time (2300 BST) yesterday. It was expected to arrived in Paris at 11.15am, a spokesman said. The plane was carrying 216 passengers and 12 crew. The French authorities have set up a crisis centre at Charles de Gaulle airport.

According to the French media, Paris airport authorities were informed by their Brazilian counterparts that the plane had vanished from the radar. France Info radio quoted an airport authority source as saying that the absence from the radar could be a question of a transmitter failure, but that this would be very rare. "There is much concern," the source said. "The plane disappeared off radar screens several hours ago."

Chris Yates, an aviation expert, told the BBC: "There is not radar coverage across the Atlantic because it is too far from radar stations. But the fact (the plane) has not appeared on radar when it neared land gives me cause for concern. Normally, aircraft crossing the oceans are in contant contact with traffic control, updating them with details of their route information or location. If there is an emergency on board, they declare that. So it is somewhat surprising that there doesn't appear to have been a warning."

He said that "if we are talking about an aircraft coming down over the ocean ... then survivability is quite limited".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/air-france-plane-disappears-radar

---

CNN International



A French passenger aircraft carrying 228 people has disappeared off the coast of Brazil, airline officials say.

Air France told CNN the jet was making the 11-hour flight from Rio de Janeiro to Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris when contact was lost.

Brazil's air force launched a search near the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha in the Atlantic Ocean, 365 km (226 miles) from Brazil's coast, the country's state media said.

Full article: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/01/air.france.brazil/index.html#cnnSTCText

[dipsydoodle]

1. Sounds serious

That's over an hour they were due to land.........France is an hour ahead of the UK.

BBC Link : French plane lost over Atlantic http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8076848.stm

[JI7]

2. where was the plane located the last time it was on radar ?

[dipsydoodle]

7. See here from update

Brazil's air force confirmed the plane was missing and said a search and rescue mission was under way near the island of Fernando de Noronha. So - I'm guessing it's off the coast of Brazil. :shrug:

However - see #10 below which mentions Morocco.

[liberal N proud]

16. Off the coast of Brazil - Map here

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=fernando+de+noronha&sll=37.579413,-95.712891&sspn=60.480903,120.146484&ie=UTF8&ll=14.774883,-23.90625&spn=104.891686,139.570313&z=3&iwloc=A

[TheWatcher]

3. Definitely Serious.

It doesn't sound good. :(

I hope everything is OK, but I know how this movie usually ends. :(

[pjt7]

4. Why would there be a press release about this

before anything is confirmed?

[TheWatcher]

8. I'm really not sure. I found that a little odd too.

[dipsydoodle]

9. Flights into Europe

from the Amercicas usually arrive early rather than late.

[No Elephants]

13. Excellent point.

[cwydro]

18. Because it is news when a plane does not arrive on time

and has not contacted traffic control and there are 228 people on board.

[stray cat]

23. I think the worst is likely confirmed - planes that drop off radar don't likely end well

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. Because the plane has not arrived as scheduled.

Anyone (airline/airport personnel and loved ones) waiting for that plane is going to notice something. Better the news come out in an organized manner than a flood of twitters, emails, mobile calls, etc. Any time I have flown to Europe, my flights that left on time arrived early. I've never been late unless departure time was significantly late. This spooks me.

[WinkyDink]

105. Missing. Twelve hours. 228 people. We issue press releases for one person when missing.

[regnaD kciN]

5. According to Airliners.net...

...this is the aircraft involved.

[conspirator]

114. How many engines does that plane have? I always feel safer with 4 engine planes nt

[DFW]

6. Not exactly encouraging

I take Air France a LOT across the Atlantic, and usually have great experience with them. Where
Lufthansa tells you to get lost if they screw up a connection for you, Air France moves heaven
and earth to help you out and make tight connections. (Other people will presumably have other
experiences). I have also taken the Airbus 330 a lot from Düsseldorf to New York, and while the
airlines never tell you about technical problems if they don't have to, I have rarely experienced
delays, let alone serious incidents on those planes.

I'll be waiting to hear what the cause is thought to be for this. So far, I'm not thinking of
cancelling any flights planned on Air France, and I have four of them booked for next week.

[onehandle]

11. My wife takes Air France to Europe when she can. Sometimes she's stuck with Delta.

Prefers Air France and I suspect will continue to.

[uppityperson]

62. k&r, my condolences to all. I like SAS, they are wonderful

have flown several, not Air France since sib who flies often USA-Europe says doesn't like them. SAS is great, expensive, but look for deals.

[Baclava]

31. ‘Airbus Knew Tail Fin Could Snap Off’

I wouldn't trust anything Airbus had to say.

"The newspaper "USA Today," after an exhaustive investigation into the causes of the Crash of American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus A300-600 in November of 2001, has concluded in a copyright story on May 27 by Alan Levin that Airbus knew long before the crash that the 27-foot high tail on one of its planes had almost snapped off in flight. That event occurred in June of 1997, a full five years before the tail snapped off flight 587, causing it to spiral into Belle Harbor."

"For almost five years, one of the world’s largest jetmakers knew that the 27-foot-tall tail fin on one of its jets had almost snapped off in flight. Officials with manufacturer Airbus understood that losing a tail fin would prove catastrophic. Even so, they kept their concerns to themselves until after a tail fin did break off one of its jets, causing the second-worst aviation disaster in U.S. history."


http://www.rockawave.com/News/2003/0606/Community/002.html

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

58. if you kick the shit out of the rudder most planes will crash

The co-pilot on AA587 was out of his fucking mind

[northernlights]

61. maybe I misread it, but

I think the copilot whipped the rudder around in attempts to get the plane back under control. My reading is that some major force (article suggests downdraft) sent the plane out of control.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

64. It was wake turbulence from a 747

the pilots were not properly trained for wake turbulence by American Airlines and the plane crashed when they reacted inappropriately.

In 35 years of service the tail has only fallen off an Airbus A300 once,

[Baclava]

75. "Only once" - ha! I watch all the "Seconds From Disaster" show on the NGC

I know there's usually a cascade of failures that have to happen for a big jet to go down.

Pilot error included.

Some of those shows really make you question who you're flying with.

Not to pick on Airbus alone though - in this case, the plane in question has an outstanding safety record.

[heliarc]

122. There's a Stage Show to recommend....

It's called Charlie Victor Romeo (CVR)... otherwise known as Cockpit Voice Recorder.

They may still be on tour. It is a show that reenacts flight disasters from the records of the CVR. One of the best and most terrifying works of theater I've ever seen. If it comes to your town, get tickets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KizsUNkxZgU&feature=related

[Harry Monroe]

50. Not to take anything away from this serious potential tragedy...

...but I would NEVER fly Air France voluntarily. I was once booked on a flight from Paris to New York in which I had to wait around Paris airport for 12 hours due to a rare snowstorm at CDG. Where other airlines would give you vouchers to eat in the airport, Air France wheeled out prepackaged sandwiches you'd buy at your local 7-11 and lukewarm sodas. "Help yourselves" they said. Plus instead of merely cancelling the flight and rescheduling it they kept "delaying" it, irritating the passengers crowded around the counter at the gate. They finally stopped making the announcements in English and made them in French only, because the American passengers going to JFK were getting more and more irate. Could have been the sandwiches?? And those stereotypes about French being rude? I find that true with Air France. And that's not the first time I've flown with them.

I recently flew Lufthansa from Atlanta to Frankfort. The original flight was delayed from 5PM until midnight due to a problem with one of the navigational instruments. A part had to be flown in from DC which would not arrive until late that evening. Not only did they give us meal vouchers to eat anywhere in the airport (up to $25), anyone wanting to rebook for the next day's flight (which I had to due to my connection in Frankfort), got to stay in the Atlanta Hilton Airport on Lufthansa's tab as well as breakfast, lunch and dinner vouchers while at the Hilton. It was the first time I flew Lufthansa and I would certainly fly them again. Air France, no way, not at least voluntarily!! I fly quite a bit and the company I work for makes the arrangements, so I have little say in which airline I fly on.

[liberation]

65. Maybe right now is not the best time to share your flight experiences?

What is the point? Seriously... this story is about the possible tragedy if this plane truly fell into the Atlantic.

So you had a bad experience with Air France, I sympathize with you, but honestly... what does have your historial of a single bad experience with Air France's customer service have to do with this situation? Airport delays and missed connections are a fact of life, and in nowhere near the same league as a crash.

[Flagg]

71. Some people just can't resist bashing the French

it's almost like a disease.

[Harry Monroe]

94. I'm not bashing them, but I do find Air France to be the rudest in terms of customer service

Both on the ground and in the air. And I've flown a lot with many different airlines. I am just speaking from experience. That being said, yes this is a tragedy and my heart goes out to the families of the victims. I hope they are able to locate the airliner or some debris at least so the families can get some closure over this. Not knowing is horrible.

[Posteritatis]

115. Bashing an airline isn't bashing a country

I love Canada, but I think I'd sooner walk cross-country than fly Air Canada across it again.

[Harry Monroe]

91. I was replying to the poster that said Air France is a great airline,not you!!

Sheesh!! I just begged to differ. And I did say "not to take anything away..." in my subject line. Sensitive much? Anyway, I do agree, it is a tragedy. If the plane fell into the Atlantic, at least I hope they find some debris or such to give the families of the victims closure.

[DFW]

106. I've had exactly the opposite with both airlines

Like I said in my post, others will have had other experiences. I speak both German and French fluently, so language is not an issue with me, and at the time I gave up Lufthansa for Air France, I had platinum status with Lufthansa, which I now have with Air France. But I have platinum with Air France because I appreciated their superior service. When Lufthansa sent me the usual form letter that I was in danger of losing my top status, and that I "surely didn't want to lose it," I responded to the form letter that I most surely did want to lose it, and listed the reasons. To my astonishment, I got a personal letter from the head of Lufthansa saying that my letter had really disturbed them, coming from one of their best customers, and that they would see about improving on the deficiencies that I said had led me to desert them. Maybe they took it to heart, who knows? This is
going back some ten years.

As station chief for Europe for my outfit, not only do I decide which airline I fly on, but I let everyone under me decide on which airline they want to fly on. Predictably, the French fly with Air France, the Dutch fly on KLM, and the Swiss fly Swiss, etc etc. Our USA HQ is in Dallas, although I obviously stop in Washington a lot. That means a LOT of American Airlines, whom, along with Delta and United, I can't stand.

All that said, during a tragedy like this one, I can't imagine ANY of the airlines mentioned above would leave grief-stricken family and friends of passenger victims
high and dry in a situation like this.

[tocqueville]

10. breaking : no hope left says Air France

rumored crash outside Morocco

to be confirmed

[JI7]

12. where did you hear this ?

[dipsydoodle]

14. other links

still say over the Brazillian side of the Atlantic. Here for example : http://www.travelbite.co.uk/news/south-and-central-america/brazil/rio-de-janeiro/air-france-plane-missing-off-brazil-$1300118.htm

And the BBC link has now been updated to include :

Brazilian air force spokesman Col Henry Munhoz told Brazilian TV it had failed to be picked up by radar on the Cape Verde Islands on its way across the Atlantic.

[tocqueville]

17. follow on France 24

available in English
mms://stream1.france24.yacast.net/f24_liveen

conflicting information :

message 3 hours after start "entering severe weather" then cut off
transponder stops after 7 hours (which fits with Morocco)

[No Elephants]

15. The Today Show is leading with this story. Press confernce coming "any minute now."

[cwydro]

19. Keep us posted.

I'm not near a TV.

[Turborama]

20. CNN video of this story and links to France 24 English & CNN International live streams...

Video: http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/06/01/plane.missing.lucich.cnn


France 24 English live stream: http://www.livestation.com/channels/4-france_24_english

CNN International live stream: http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream1

Links to other live TV news streams in my sig line below... ;-)

[cwydro]

22. Thanks for that.

[XemaSab]

21. CNN International is giving us the natural and geologic history of

Fernando do Noronha. :eyes:

[tocqueville]

24. possible strike by lightning

according to Air France

[KeepItReal]

25. and a possible electrical failure ("short circuit")

France 24 news is reporting.

[sledgehammer]

51. I've been on a British Airways that was hit by lightning

Boeing 747, flying from Harare, Zimbabwe to London. August 1992.

Plane was going down fast, pointing downwards at a decent incline. Screams all around, as well as noises of a revved up engine and the constant ding-ding-ding of the "fasten seatbelt" signs.

Definitely fell many thousand feet. Luckily we were over Zaire so it was pretty flat. Plane stabilized after about what seemed like an eternity, but was probably anywhere from 30 seconds to a couple of minutes.

Flight continued as normal. Pilot updated us during breakfast about the whole incident, when we were about a couple of hours from London. Said he couldn't change course because there was no control tower responding in the area so he couldn't switch course.

I remember clutching my brother's arm for dear life. And seeing my parents across the aisle freaking out. But the scariest part was the next morning when we arrived in London. Over McD's, my bro (who had been extremely quiet since the ordeal) calmly told me: "I thought it was the end."

We were very, very fortunate.

[Arugula Latte]

60. Gawd, that would be unimaginably horrifying.

I can't imagine a more intense feeling of pure terror, plummeting from the sky for thousands of feet ... :scared:

[sledgehammer]

63. Yes, it was pretty horrifying.

I was sleeping when I was almost thrown off my seat by the lightning strike, so I was a bit dazed as it all happened. Somehow I just kept calm as the plane was going down. Clutched my bro's arm as tight as I could. Seeing my frantic parents across the aisle freaked me out a bit though. But you just accept your fate I guess, especially when there's nothing you can do.

I was about 16 at the time. Probably would freak out a lot more if it happened now - more aware of consequences of such a moment.

In the little bit of thinking I was able to do, I thought it was an explosion inside the plane, probably a terrorist attack. My one other bro wasn't with us on the flight as he was going to join us later, so my thoughts went to him. My parents were screaming his name as well, saying that we were leaving him all alone.

[Baclava]

26. All speculation at this point

Pretty much worthless

They may never find this one if it went down in the middle of the Atlantic.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. they'll find it.

lots of technology these days to look for that type of stuff. If it was a crash there would almost surely be debris which would help them trace rough area of impact based on ocean currents, etc.

[Mira]

35. Well, they did not do so well finding debris in Pennsylvania on 9-11......

I'm sad and cynical this morning, because I dread the probable announcement of a disaster with this airplane.

[earcandle]

92. can't they find it using the satelite technology?

[Baclava]

123. "No signal from any of the three beacons on board the Air France A330 was picked up by satellites"

TOULOUSE, France (AFP) – No signal has been heard from distress beacons on a missing Air France plane, indicating it suffered a "very rapid" catastrophe, a top French space agency official told AFP on Monday.

"No signal from any of the three beacons on board the Air France A330 was picked up by satellites," said Philippe Hazane, deputy director of the National Centre for Space Studies (CNES), a French government agency for space policy.

Distress beacons are fixed to all passenger planes and emit an automatic signal when the plane is in distress, taking a dangerous route or suffering a crash. Signals cannot be picked if the beacons are underwater, Hazane said.

The CNES is based in Toulouse and would have been alerted immediately in case of a signal picked up by one of five satellites orbiting the Earth. The technology can find the precise location of a plane emitting a distress signal.

[stray cat]

28. I think the crew reported electrical problems before going silent

[KeepItReal]

29. France 24 reporting an automated alert to air traffic control from the plane's systems of a problem

<eom>

[Baclava]

47. Water depths over 13,000 ft where they are searching

[Libertas1776]

30. Just Horrible

According to AP article quote: "It's going to take a long time to carry out this search," Douglas Ferreira Machado, head of investigation and accident prevention for Brazil's Civil Aeronautics Agency, or ANAC, told Globo news. "It could be a long, sad story. The black box will be at the bottom of the sea."

Also in the article, there was one infant and seven children among the 216 or so passengers. My God, My God. :cry:

I was on an Air France flight, I think on the same type of plane, from NY to Paris only a few months ago in the depths of winter. It really is sobering and very unsettling. It makes you think, Why them and not me? Life is so random.

[XemaSab]

34. Well, hopefully it was over with fast

:(

[Christa]

102. Yes, my thoughts exactly

My heart goes out to all concerned.

[cwydro]

33. Just spoke with an airline pilot I know

and he says that the Airbus has been having software problems lately - sudden pitch-ups.

[tocqueville]

36. this particular one ? how does he know ?

this type had been produced in thousands. Had one crash at early testing 1990, then nothing for many years. One - non lethal - incident on an Aussie one last year and a loss a fuel over the Azores.

[cwydro]

37. No, not this particular one.

That model.

[tocqueville]

41. that's probably why...

Sarkozy recently chose that precise model as his new "Airforce One"

[cwydro]

44. From what I understand the plane is completely computerized.

[tocqueville]

53. always been nt

[cwydro]

54. Not all planes.

[liberation]

66. Huh?

This has to do what exactly with this incident? We still don't know much, if anything, about what has happened. Maybe, just maybe, right now is not the best time for conjectures... or pulling stuff out of our collective derrieres? Let's wait to hear what actually happened.

[cboy4]

93. Of course this is the time to throw out theories. This is a discussion board,

and it's what aviation consultants are doing on the cable news shows.

It's only natural for people to talk about what they think happened.

[cwydro]

111. Exactly.

Thank you.

[cwydro]

95. Absolutely agree that it is all conjecture at this point.

But it is just human to wonder.

I work for an airline and there is plenty of conjecture here, but of course, no one knows anything.

I only hope they find some clues.

[Harry Monroe]

97. And he is right. Not all planes are computerized. No conjecture here.

[tocqueville]

38. French jets have been sent from Dakar, Senegal nt

[bdamomma]

39. terrible situation with all those souls on that plane.

this doesn't sound good at all.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flagg]

42. Christmas came early for freepers this year

[mule_train]

43. why weren't they above the weather

the report I read talked about turbulance and being sticken by lightening

that long into the flight, why wouldnt they be well above all that, most jet flights are

very sad story, missing jets never have good endings

[av8rdave]

45. There are often thunderstorms that exceed the maximum altitude of airliners

Even at higher altitudes, it's not unusual to deviated for convective weather. Bear in mind also that earlier in a long flight, the aircraft's weight limits the maximum operating altitude.

[RoadRage]

46. Turbulance...

I've read a couple of places that the plane was experiencing very bad turbulance.. perhaps the pilot lowered the plane to try to get under the bad air, and then ran into the storm?

Not sure.. i was just on 2 planes on Saturday coming back from San Antonio and we hit rough air... it scared the beejesus out of me!

[MajorChode]

56. Some storms can easily go higher than any airliner

Some thunderstorms will rise to the tropopause which is almost 60,000' near the equator. Even at higher latitudes where the tropopause is not as high, some storms still can't be topped by airliners.

[liberation]

68. Also... not all lighting goes from cloud-to-earth, there are plenty of vertical bolts

that rise from the cloud top towards the upper atmosphere.

The latest news are reporting that the plane sent a distress signal to Paris regarding a severe malfunction on the on board electric systems... which may lead to the possibility of the plane being severely damaged by a lighting hit. Alas, right now all we can do is wait for the report once (or if) they find the plane.

[MajorChode]

80. That was an automated report

and it very well could have occurred after the plane was already doomed. My guess (and it's only a wild guess) is the plane simply broke apart either from severe turbulence or perhaps from loss of control by the crew due to the thunderstorm. A thunderstorm can easily invert even an airliner and the natural response is to right the plane which if done incorrectly can tear it apart. Planes like that simply can't take those kinds of G forces. Whatever happened, it must have been hell towards the end.

[Baclava]

96. "loss of cabin pressure"

That's new...could be the impending sign of a break-up in mid-air?

SAO PAULO (AP) Brazil's military is searching waters off the country's northeast coast while French forces are scouring the Atlantic off of West Africa for a missing Air France jet. The plane was carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris when it ran into thunderstorms. Fourteen minutes later, it sent an automatic message reporting an electrical failure and a loss of cabin pressure.

[MajorChode]

124. Yes, definitely

When the plane starts to break up, cabin pressure would be the first thing to go, and probably well before the plane actually starts loosing pieces.

Back when there was very little in the way of thunderstorm radar warnings, it was quite common for airliners to be lost in them. On board radar solved a lot of those problems, but you still have some captains who think they can fly through anything.

[Baclava]

129. Looks like other planes on the same track made it through OK

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL1719357

Reuters reporting 2 flights on the same/similar tracks, one 30 mins ahead, one 2 hours later:

"It had been preceded safely on the same track 30 minutes earlier by a Boeing 747-400 heading to Frankfurt for Lufthansa, according to a source with access to data transmitted from jetliners for the World Meteorological Organisation.

Two hours later an MD-11 cargo plane also flown by Lufthansa passed just south of the same spot on the way to West Africa, the source told Reuters, asking not to be identified."

[MajorChode]

132. In 30 minutes, everything can change

A thunderstorm cell can dissipate or move on and holes in a squall line can open or disappear.

[Baclava]

134. True - this mystery may be with us for quite some time

Splashing down in the middle of the deep ocean with no good reports of even any position approximation.

Even if by some miracle they find the "black boxes", the CVR and FDR may actually show nothing at all if the electrics were the first to go. That said, this is a hard incident to wrap your head around -- no problems reported by the crew, but several transmissions sent from the computers to maintenance about multiple failures?

It's the silence of the crew that is the most compelling. All signs point to a sudden, complete failure of all systems.
Most unusual for a wide-body jet at cruise altitude, and that's an understatement.

[Posteritatis]

116. Thunderstorms can be huge

Big ones can easily go well above airliners' ceilings - sixty, eighty thousand feet in extreme cases.

[cboy4]

48. Unless the crew's communication equipment was knocked out some how,

it's very odd that they were not able to notify oceanic air traffic control.

Especially if they were at cruising altitude .. they'd have enough time before the plane hit the water you would think to at least announce a mayday.

Maybe they did, and we just don't know about it yet.

Or I'm wondering if there was an electrical fire on board in the cockpit and it was too severe for the pilots to continue flying.

That's what happened to Swissair Flight 111 in 1998 over the Atlantic Ocean near Nova Scotia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111

[tocqueville]

67. there is no such thing as "oceanic flight control"

there is control in Brazilian airspace and in African airspace. Nothing in between.

[cboy4]

76. That's astonishing. So you're telling me the pilots cannot communicate

their positions every half hour like they do between the US and Europe and Asia?

They're flying completely radio and radar blind over the ocean between South America and Africa?

If so, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

Why don't they have the ability to announce a mayday over a frequency that can be picked up by other aircraft?

[bdab1973]

138. Those routes are different from the NAT

Across that route, there are very few repeater stations, so at some point after you coast out, you lose VHF radio comm, and rely on HF radios. If you really need to you can often relay stuff through the HF using other aircraft. I've never flown that route myself, but I do know that in certain spots in the world, radio comms are dubious or non-existent.

[BlueMTexpat]

69. I remember that disaster well.

The whole of Geneva was in mourning.

My deepest sympathies to all friends and family members of those on the plane.

At least with Swissair Flight 111, people knew where the plane was when it didn't arrive. But that didn't make it any easier for the unsuspecting friends or family members who arrived at Cointrin Airport hoping to greet their loved ones.

[cboy4]

78. Yea -- there would be nothing worse than knowing your loved one

had died in a plane crash, and searchers didn't even know for sure where to exactly look. :(

[cboy4]

72. Wrong spot

x(

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. They can if their electronics are working properly

But if there was a lightning strike that caused such damage, perhaps they lost voice radio too. They expected to make contact just a few minutes after the problem seems to have happened:

The Airbus sent an automatic message at 0214 GMT, four hours after leaving Rio de Janeiro, reporting a short circuit. It may have suffered lightning damage.
...
It made its last radio contact at 0133 GMT (2233 Brazilian time) when it was 565km (360m) off Brazil's north-eastern coast, Brazil's air force said.

The crew said they were planning to enter Senegalese airspace at 0220 GMT and that the plane was flying normally at an altitude of 10,670m (35,000ft) and a speed of 840km/h (520mph).

At 0220, when Brazilian air traffic controllers saw the plane had not made its required radio call saying it was crossing into Senegalese airspace, air traffic control in the Senegalese capital was contacted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8076848.stm

Not surprising they're out of radar range in mid-Atlantic.

[cboy4]

82. Well all planes are out of radar range in the mid Atlantic

between New York and Europe. There's no radar coverage out there.

That's why you have Oceanic control, for instance one based in Shanwick. They can't see you, but they can hear you.

And pilots are supposed to report their coordinates on their assigned tracks every half hour, from what I've been told.

That sounds like what the AF plane was doing with Brazil.

Reporting their coordinates.

Thanks for the information. :thumbsup:

[Twinguard]

49. I hope for the best for the people on the plane.

This may not be the time or the place, but does anyone who was on board? Are there any governmental officials, whistleblowers, witnesses, spies, or former vice-presidents on the flight manifest?

[shadowknows69]

52. Very bad

[Are_grits_groceries]

55. I watched a minute or two of Morning Shmo.

They were whinging about the disappearance of the aircraft and stating that all it would have needed would be a GPS device and all would be well as far as finding the jet.
I don't know squat about jets, but I can't believe there isn't something built to take care of this. I think they have transponders.
Am I right in assuming that those fools need to be on stronger meds??

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. My guess is that once it's underwater, you'd need specialist equipment

and might have to be quite close to it.

[tocqueville]

73. can be done

Since the recorders can sometimes be crushed into unreadable pieces, or even located in deep water, some modern units are self-ejecting (taking advantage of kinetic energy at impact to separate themselves from the aircraft) and also equipped with radio and sonar beacons (see emergency locator transmitter) to aid in their location. (wiki)

such black boxes were fished at the Flash Airlines Flight 604 crash in the Red Sea. The wreckage sank to a depth of 1,000 m (3,300 ft), making recovery of the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder difficult. However two weeks after the accident, both devices were located by a French salvage vessel and recovered by a ROV. No other significant pieces of wreckage were recovered due to the depths involved, something that made the subsequent investigation more difficult. (wiki)

here we might have to do with depths of the double or triple : 3,000 meters (9,800 ft) deep, depending how far from the coast they were.

[Blue_Tires]

74. morning joe is a tit

[sofa king]

57. I saw the biggest arc of lighting I've ever seen on Friday.

Enjoying the usual nightmare 13-hour ordeal between BFE Virginia and Florida, via Pennsylvania. The second leg of the flight was delayed by lightning, then rerouted somewhere over Tennessee and Alabama, I think, to avoid storms. (Yes, I probably could have driven in less time, if I sped a little, but I don't drive anymore.)

As the sun set in the West, it was shining underneath some of the storms off to the East, while lightning flashed through the clouds, lighting up the rain with this weird orangey-magenta color. As I was admiring the sight, an arc of lighting flashed along the outside of the storm, from the top of the cloud going all the way down to the low-level overcast and stretching south over what I can only guess was many miles. I figure the top-to-bottom distance alone had to be 20,000 feet.

After that, I decided not to be upset about all the time lost avoiding the storms.

[rabs]

70. Member of Brazilian royal family on board and presumed dead

Dom Pedro Luiz de Orleans e Bragança, 26 years old. Third in line to the Brazilian imperial throne. Works and lives in Luxembourg, had been in Brazil on vacation. His cousin, Princess Alix de Ligne, who had been booked on the same plane, took another flight.


(From Rio de Janerrio newspaper Jornal do Brasil.)

Sucessor do trono brasileiro entre os desaparecidos

Hildegard Angel, JB Online


RIO - Entre os prováveis mortos do vôo da Air France está um membro da Família Imperial Brasileira: Dom Pedro Luiz de Orleans e Bragança, 26 anos, filho da princesa dona Cristine Ligne e do príncipe dom Antonio de Orleans e Bragança. Dom Pedro Luiz era herdeiro presuntivo do trono brasileiro, terceiro na linha de sucessão e trabalhava num banco em Luxemburgo. Ele morava no Luxemburgo onde trabalhava e era primo do Grão Duque. A prima, princesa Alix de Ligne, que estaria no mesmo voo, acabou embarcando em outro. Pedro Luiz estava de férias no Brasil

[tocqueville]

79. 6 Americans aboard

Il y avait 80 Brésiliens et 73 Français, selon une liste lue par le porte-parole de la compagnie française, Jorge Asunçao, à l'aéroport international de Rio. Il y avait aussi 18 Allemands, 9 Italiens, 6 Américains, 5 Chinois, 4 Hongrois, 2 Espagnols, 2 Britanniques, 2 Marocains et 2 Irlandais. Les autres nationalités sont: un Angolais, un Argentin, un Belge, un Islandais, un Norvégien, un Polonais, un Roumain, un Russe, un Slovaque, un Suédois, un Turc, un Philippin et un Suisse.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/06/01/01016-20090601ARTFIG00310-jean-louis-borloo-l-airbus-a-ete-foudroye-.php

[rabs]

99. Air France confirms plane transmitted electrical failure message

It was an automatically-transmitted message that indicated there had been an electrical circuit failure aboard. The message was sent from a point some distance away from the Brazilian coastline. According to Air France, the jetliner crossed a storm front with strong turbulence. Shortly after the message was transmitted, air controllers from Brazil, Africa, Spain and France tried, in vain, to establish contact with flight AF 447.

Pilot was experienced with 11,000 hours, 700 of them on Airbus. Both co-pilots had lots of experience with same model of plane. Airplane engines made by General Electric, plane had only been flying since 18 April 2005. Last hanger check-up was on 16 April 2009.


Air France confirma que avião comunicou pane elétrica

AE - Agencia Estado
Tamanho do texto? A A A A
RIO - A Air France acaba de emitir uma nota confirmando que uma mensagem automática enviada pelo Airbus A-330-200 indicou uma pane do circuito elétrico numa zona afastada da costa brasileira por volta das 23 horas de ontem (horário de Brasília). De acordo com a nota, a aeronave atravessou uma zona de tempestade com fortes turbulências às 23 horas. Pouco depois da mensagem o conjunto dos controles aéreos civis brasileiro, africano, espanhol e francês, tentaram, em vão, estabelecer contato com o voo AF 447.

A nota informa ainda que o comandante possuía 11 mil horas de voo e já tinha efetuado 700 horas com o mesmo modelo do Airbus desaparecido. Um dos copilotos possuía 3 mil horas de voo, sendo 800 no Airbus. O outro copiloto tinha 6.600 horas de voo, sendo 2.600 no Airbus. A aeronave estava equipada com motores da General Eletric CF6-80E e começou a operar no dia 18 de abril de 2005. A última visita de manutenção em hangar foi feita no dia 16 de abril de 2009.

(From O Estado de Sao Paulo)

[Baclava]

126. State Dept: 2 US citizens on missing jet

WASHINGTON (AP) — The State Department says two Americans were among the passengers of a missing Air France jet carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.

No names were released

[WinkyDink]

107. There is no throne.

[rabs]

112. True, there is no actual throne anymore, but there is a royal family

The Imperial Family today
The Imperial House of Brazil consists today of the following members (in order of succession):

Prince Luis Gastão of Orléans-Braganza (b.1938) - Unmarried, eldest son of Pedro Henrique, deceased Head of the Imperial House of Brazil.
Prince Bertrand Maria José Pio Januário of Orléans-Braganza (b.1941) - Unmarried, third son of Pedro Henrique, deceased Head of the Imperial House of Brazil.
Prince Antônio of Orléans-Braganza (b.1950) - son of Pedro Henrique, deceased Head of the Imperial House of Brazil.
Princess Christine of Orléans-Braganza - wife of prince Antonio (not in the line of succession).
Prince Pedro Luís of Orléans-Braganza (b.1983)- eldest son of prince Antonio.
Prince Rafael of Orléans-Braganza (b.1986) - son of prince Antonio.
Princess Amélia of Orléans-Braganza (b.1984) - daughter of prince Antonio.
Princess Maria Gabriela Fernanda of Orléans-Braganza (b.1989) - daughter of prince Antonio.
Princess Isabel Maria of Orléans-Braganza (b.1944)- Unmarried, daughter of Pedro Henrique, deceased Head of the Imperial House of Brazil.
Princess Maria of Bavaria - widow of Pedro Henrique, deceased Head of the Imperial House of Brazil (not in the line of succession).

[a la izquierda]

113. I guess not technically any more.

But there is still a royal family.

[tocqueville]

81. Sarkozy just spoke, sends boats, planes (pics)

Spain offers help, Sarkozy required American help with satellite localisation

Michelin's CEO said have been aboard (has to be confirmed)



4h19 last known position

[proteus_lives]

83. How Awful.

RIP.

[Matthea]

84. Thank you to DU

This is my first post and I would like to thank DU because it is one of the only political site that shows some concern about what happened to this flight. I am French and was used to work for Air France. I am very saddened. I really appreciate everyone who posted here.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

85. Welcome to DU!

I hope that they soon find out what has happened to the plane. My heart goes out to family and friends of the victims. I wish I could feel more optimistic. :hug:

[tocqueville]

86. salut de France

:toast:

[Matthea]

89. Merci Tocqueville...

You have been very helpful giving some infos. I went on CNN.com and France 24. Somebody said they received at text message from the plane. They could investigate at what time it was send. Governments are so quick to spy on us but they can't GPS an airplane :(

[cwydro]

117. Yes, thanks for the updates.

Merci beaucoup. I hope I spelled that right.

[janx]

88. Enchante!

De rien. :hi:

[cwydro]

110. Welcome to DU!

Sorry it had to be on such a sad occasion.

[Blue_Tires]

118. welcome to the site!

[Vidar]

135. Bienvenu a DU.

[ooglymoogly]

87. The odd thing here is that there was no mayday

The best of the worst is that the plane is hijacked and flown below radar to a west African airstrip and the passengers are at least alive.

[Matthea]

90. DU is a great place

I have been reading everyday for few years. Thank you for the welcome :)

[tocqueville]

98. bombing not outruled, all hypotheses open (Sarkozy)

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/06/01/01016-20090601ARTFIG00375-une-bombe-peut-tres-bien-avoir-fait-exploser-l-avion-.php

says Air France pilot. Hit by lightning, electrical failure not likely (5 redundant systems)

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/06/01/01016-20090601ARTFIG00310-jean-louis-borloo-l-airbus-a-ete-foudroye-.php

if you might have relatives, friends etc.. call :

00.33.1.57.02.10.55

[Matthea]

100. Did you hear about this text message...

that was sent from the airplane. It said "I love you...and I am very scared". I am kind of reluctant to think of bombing. First the departing city and then at least the time it happened. If someone is doing it they want to make sure it will be known as a terrorist act and not an accident. They want the sensational. I was watching a weather reporter who explained very well what kind of storm is happening right now on the coasts of Brazil and Africa.

[Matthea]

101. But then again...

I can be wrong. They are moving away from the lightening strike.

[muriel_volestrangler]

119. A text message would seem very unlikely from mid-Atlantic

the only way it could be transmitted from there would be via an independent satellite phone (we know nothing can have gone via the plane's normal communications system) - do they do text messages? I'd also think anyone in that kind of situation would phone, instinctively, to talk rather than pressing the keys for a message.

[Matthea]

120. I thought about that too.

I have to be more patient. So many questions!

[cwydro]

121. I would tend to agree and I wonder

how they can possibly rule out terrorism at this point.

A loss of cabin pressure, electrical disruption, and no voice contact or reports. Sounds like terrorism to me. I wonder if they are not saying anything until they get their ducks in a row.

[tocqueville]

104. no more info than that...

"Contact with the plane was lost five hours and 20 minutes after it took off. Unconfirmed reports in a Portuguese newspaper said passengers on board sent text messages saying "I love you" and "I am scared" to relatives when they realised their plane was in trouble. A report in the Jornal de Noticias cited a Brazilian official from an aviation union."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/air-france-crash-passengers

[conspirator]

103. Holy mother. I am due to fly from Bogota to Madrid next week.

This scares the shit out of me

[benld74]

108. GOES Satelllite Infared Weather - 6/1/09-

http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/goeseastfullir.html

[rabs]

109. Satellite image shows strong, tropical-storm activity on jetliner's route

Photo is from one hour and 45 minutes after contact was lost with plane.





Imagem do satélite mostra zona de instabilidade na rota do avião às 02h45 GMT (que corresponde às 23h45 no horário de Brasília). Avião perdeu contato por volta de 22h de Brasília.

[hedgehog]

125. Global warming in action? The weather I've been seeing is all

a little ramped up; rainstorms are turning into gullywashers, a warm front is 10 degrees hotter than it's predicted to be, a cold spell 10 degrees cooler, wind speeds much higher than normal, etc. How much would a thunderstorm have to ramp up to exceed current design standards for aircraft? I'm not thinking of lightning but of downbursts or wind shear.

[Sultana]

127. This is some scary shit

:(

RIP to the those perished and condolences to their families.

[tocqueville]

128. Debris found outside Senegal according Brazilian Air Force

01h53 FRANCE > Crash aérien - Des débris localisés au large du Sénégal
Des débris ont été repérés en surface de l'océan Atlantique dans la zone où pourrait avoir disparu l'avion d'Air France assurant la liaison Rio de Janeiro-Paris, a annoncé ce soir l'armée de l'air brésilienne.

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/filnews/

I'll see if I find more....

[Baclava]

130. Pretty fuzzy report

From Reuters:

"Brazil's air force said it was investigating a report that a jetliner flown by Brazilian carrier TAM had spotted debris in the ocean in Senegal's air space on a flight from Europe to Brazil. Brazil's Vice-President Jose Alencar also mentioned the report, saying the TAM pilot may have seen "something on fire" in the ocean. TAM was not immediately available for comment."

[Turborama]

131. Amazing footage of planes being hit by lightening on AC360, will interview a pilot shortly on this

Worth watching...

[Turborama]

133. Pilot May Have Seen Flames On Ocean

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) -- Brazil's official news agency is reporting that a commercial airplane pilot saw what appeared to be fire on the ocean near the route taken by a missing Air France plane.

=snip=

A Brazilian Air Force spokesman is quoted as saying that the commercial pilot saw several orange points on the ocean while flying over the region and now believes they might have been fire.

The 4-year-old Airbus A330 left Rio Sunday night with 216 passengers and 12 crew members on board. Most of the passengers were Brazilian and French, but 32 nations in all were represented, including two Americans.

From: http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/local/story/News-Agency-Pilot-May-Have-Seen-Flames-On-Ocean/KuDbTvfAvk6kX6lc6CJovg.cspx

[Baclava]

136. Wreckage seen in search area for missing plane (Brazil)

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) -- Searchers looking for a missing Air France jetliner spotted wreckage Tuesday in the Atlantic Ocean that may have come from the plane, Brazilian aviation officials said Tuesday.

An airplane seat, orange life vest, small white fragments and signs of oil and kerosene were found 700 kilometers (434 miles) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha archipelago, said Brazilian Air Force spokesman Jorge Amaral. The search will continue, Amaral said.

He said there is not enough material to officially say this is the wreckage from Flight 447, which disappeared early Monday with 228 people onboard.

The debris was found 80 kilometers (50 miles) from the plane's flight path, another Brazilian Air Force official said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/02/brazil.france.plane.missing/index.html

[Baclava]

137. Families pay tribute to Air France victims

PARIS (AP) — Three young Irish doctors, all close friends, enjoying a two-week vacation together in Brazil.

That's how their families want to remember Aisling Butler, 26, Jane Deasy, 27, and Eithne Walls, 29 — three of the 228 passengers who met with tragedy as Air France Flight 447 ended up in the Atlantic Ocean.

Aisling's father John Butler paid tribute to his daughter Tuesday from his home in Roscrea, County Tipperary.

"She was a truly wonderful, exciting girl," he told Irish reporters. "She never flunked an exam in her life — nailed every one of them — and took it all in her stride as well."



(more)

edit: link
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gkUnkxHxTIO0ydburHwg0DD9BdoQD98IK3HO0

[Baclava]

139. Riverdance star on lost airliner

A young doctor and talented Irish dancer from County Down was among 228 people onboard the Air France airliner which disappeared on Monday.

Eithne Walls, 28, from Ballygowan, worked in the Dublin Eye and Ear Hospital.

But she had also spent a year with Riverdance on Broadway, New York, before studying medicine at Trinity College, Dublin



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8078264.stm