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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 08:41 AM
Original message
British cops say they don't want Tasers
Source: United Press International

British cops say they don't want Tasers
Published: June 22, 2009 at 9:23 AM

Several major British police forces say they are refusing the government's calls to extend the use of Taser stun guns to thousands of officers.

The Sussex Police have joined the London Metropolitan Police in refusing to extend the use of Tasers to officers who are not specially trained to wield the weapons, The Daily Telegraph reported Monday.

Still undecided on whether to roll out the non-lethal weapons to more officers are the South Yorkshire Police and Devon and Cornwall Constabulary, the newspaper said.

Concerns over providing 10,000 such weapons to 30,000 officers nationwide have reportedly been sparked by video footage from Nottingham, England, that appeared to depict an officer shocking a man at least twice while he was lying on the floor.


Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/22/British-cops-say-they-dont-want-Tasers/UPI-17051245676983/
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. Is the same country that ruled so much of the world?
British cops are afraid of making criminals uncomfortable.

Maybe when we kicked them out of our country we broke their spirit.
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mwooldri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. British cops are in general unarmed.
Generally always have been... the nightstick is about as much as it gets.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. cops on the beat not really same as the class on top who were the rulers of empire
Silly comparison.
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Towlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. But even here, tazers are seldom used on criminals. They're usually used on suspects.
Edited on Mon Jun-22-09 09:38 AM by Towlie
And since suspects are innocent until proven guilty, it's wrong to allow police to torture them.

Come to think of it, it's wrong even after they're convicted.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. They recognize that fact that
Tasers are being misused by police worldwide strictly as methods of forcing compliance. Not as a means of "less than lethal force" to put an end to dangerous criminals actions, rather they are being misused as a means of forcing compliance to an officer's order to people whom are non-violent criminals. Don't precisely obey an officer? You get tasered. Cops have been using tasers and shocking people, not once or twice, but ten or fifteen times. Using tasers and having people die. Not one or two people, but many. According to Amnesty International it is 351 people.

The use of tasers should start being treated just like the discharge of a firearm. With all the rules and regulations that implies. Officer who misue tasers should be arrested and charged with a crime.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/taser-abuse/overview-of-tasers/page.do?id=1351087

Overview of Tasers

Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Safety research to date has not answered the question of what role Taser shocks may be playing in these deaths. Amnesty International is concerned that these potentially dangerous weapons are being used as tools of routine force -- rather than as an alternative to firearms.

Tasers too often interfere with a basic equation of policing: that force must be proportional to the threat. Because Tasers are often seen as completely safe and non-lethal, they are often used as a weapon of first rather than last resort. They have become less an alternative to deadly force than an alternative to less-intensive policing techniques. In the more than 351 cases Amnesty International has tracked where individuals died after being shocked, in only a small fraction --about 10 percent -- of the incidents was the individual carrying any kind of weapon.

Amnesty International has found that in most of the cases where individuals died after being shocked, they had been subjected to multiple and/or prolonged shocks (the standard shock with the most common model of the weapon is 5 seconds). The National Institute of Justice (NIJ), part of the U.S. Department of Justice, has similarly noted in its interim report on Tasers (June 2008) that many of the deaths are associated with prolonged or repeated discharges; it found research in this area to be limited, and called on law enforcement officers to exercise caution in using multiple activations.



http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/taser-abuse/recommendations-to-law-enforcement-agencies-on-tasers/page.do?id=1351089

Amnesty International’s Recommendations to Law Enforcement Agencies on Tasers.

Amnesty International calls on law enforcement agencies either to suspend using Tasers and similar devices, pending the results of thorough studies into their use and effects, or to limit their use to situations where officers would otherwise be justified in resorting to firearms where no lesser alternatives are available. For departments that continue to use the weapons, they should establish policies mandating that:

* Tasers should be use only in situations where the alternative would be use of deadly force. Examples would include: armed stand-offs, instances in which a police officer faces a life-threatening attack or injury, or threat of attack with a deadly weapon, or where the target presents an immediate threat of death or serious injury to him/herself or others. In such circumstances, Tasers should be used only where less extreme measures are ineffective or without a promise of achieving the intended result.

* Unarmed suspects should not be shot with a Taser for arguing or talking back, being discourteous, refusing to obey an order, resisting arrest or fleeing a minor crime scene, unless they pose an immediate threat of death or serious injury that cannot be controlled through less extreme measures.

* Federal, state and local agencies should ensure strict reporting by the departments concerned on all use or display of Tasers, with regular monitoring and data made public. Departments should download data recorded by officers' Tasers after every incident in which they are used. A summary of this data should be included in all use of force reports. Each display, "sparking" or shock administered by a Taser should be reported in use of force reports, as well as whether the Taser was used in dart-firing or stun gun mode and the reasons why a Taser was used. The number of trigger-pulls and duration of the shock should be reported in each instance, as well as the age, race and gender of each person who is shocked. Each department should provide a detailed break-down of its Taser use in regular, public reports.



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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. No. That's why the British Empire lasted so long. The use of "concentration camps"
Edited on Mon Jun-22-09 01:48 PM by Joe Chi Minh
during the Boer War for the families of the Boer soldiers is usually cited as an atrocity. In fact, a Boer leader is on record as expressing gratitude that their families were protected in those camps. That's not to say that they were not underfed or more prone to diseases in them. So, alas, were the British people at home.

Of course, the British Empire itself, while arguably better than others in some significant regards, was the reason the Boer families were driven from the homes (which were then torched) in the first place. In India, the British were welcomed by the people as saviours, and were eventually responsible for setting up magistrates' courts, etc, all over the country. They also outlawed suttee and thuggee. In return, they plundered the country and caused massive famines leading to the deaths of millions. But the point is that your kind of "black and white" invocation of thuggery as a mark of strength is grotesque.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. and that means what? Why so angry
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. How often do they really need to use tasers?
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Lessee...no guns, few clubs...cops dead...
I'd say they need to have a LOT of tasers. But not until they are trained in their use. You never give anybody a weapon without some training. In that they are correct.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. You based this on what information? Where are the stats for UK police killed in line of duty?
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I don't need statistics. Cops get killed and need weapons.
If only ONE British policeman was killed in action each year, it would be too many. The point is not that Britain is a peaceful place (I know it's got less gun violence than the US) but that there is ALWAYS the potential for a constable to be slaughtered.

And the point about tasers is that, while they occasionally kill, most of the time they don't when used by trained operatives. Firearms, when used, ALWAYS are used with the intention to kill, and quite often do so. (There ain't no Lone Ranger shootin' guns outa the bad guy's hands, givin' them nothin' more than skinned knuckles, pardner.)

Do you have some objection to officers having weapons with an intended primary use of NOT killing?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. It depends on the factors too. Which you don't appear to care about.
Edited on Mon Jun-22-09 11:21 PM by LiberalFighter
How much training do officers receive in using tasers? Definitely not as much as firearms! There are too many LEO's not trained properly.

Firearms are not always used with the intention of killing.

I do have a problem with LEO's using tasers that inflict pain when they normally would had used less excessive force to subdue offenders or other types of conflicts.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. This is what I was told about firearms by many policemen:
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 12:23 AM by tomreedtoon
"We never draw a firearm without the understanding that, if used, it will take a life."

A policeman cannot shoot to wound. It's physically very difficult. Shooting the heart or the head is not only easier than trying to shoot a gun out of a hand, or shoot a foot (which are small targets compared to the thorax) but "wounding shots" will not positively stop someone. Killing does stop an adversary with great certainty.

Someone who is only wounded may kill before he finally faints from loss of blood or pain. In fact, I've heard of the really dangerous criminals, high on crystal meth, who have received much more than fatal damage and who have stayed alive for minutes to kill other people before they fell. You don't play with that. If you draw a gun, you kill.

And frankly, yes, I WOULD like to see officers trained in taser use as much, if not more, than they are trained to use firearms. I would mandate it as a requirement to carry such a weapon. Not simply to assume the taser is a way to get out of being a good officer - to zap a guy without trying to talk him peacefully into surrendering - but to explain the uses and limitations of the taser.

ON EDIT: One of the first cops who told me this was my uncle, the late Martin Tozer, the Sheriff of St. Louis for many years.

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14thColony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. The vast majority of British cops are killed in traffic accidents
A taser that would force compliance by a car would be too big to carry.
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14thColony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Stats for the United Kingdom

2008: 12 police died in some way related to their duties, of which 11 were from traffic accidents and one was by an accidental shotgun discharge during a training event.

2007: 14 police died in some way related to their duties, of which 7 were from traffic accidents, 5 were health-related, and 2 were murdered.

The last murder of a policeman in the UK was by stabbing in June 2007.

http://www.policememorial.org.uk/NationalRoll/National_Roll.htm

Of course what is not reflected here is the number of police stabbed but not killed, or those beaten up in the line of duty. I don't have stats on injuries due to non-lethal violence, but I would speculate that it's proportionally on a par with the US. But that's just speculation based on living here, nothing more.
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Mrs. Ted Nancy Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. UK police killed in the line of duty
From the BBC in 2007.

Some 37 police officers have been murdered in the line of duty in the past two decades in England, Scotland and Wales.
Fatal stabbings of British police officers - the majority of whom are unarmed - are rare, but serve as a reminder of the dangers of the job.


Of the officers murdered in England, Scotland and Wales since 1985, 12 have been killed by vehicles, 12 shot, 11 stabbed and three died after being beaten, according to the Police Roll of Honour Trust.

Many more have been wounded as those they pursue increasingly carry weapons - typically a knife, rather than a gun. It is these deaths and injuries that have made wearing body armour a matter of routine for many officers. This offers some protection against stab wounds, but is unlikely to stop bullets fired at close range...

snip

"...4,000-plus police officers who have died while on duty in the past 175 years, Today most die in crashes involving vehicles. Only a minority are murdered.


Killed In The Line of Duty
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. 37? That's it?
The South averages that many cops killed per YEAR, largely because gun nuttery in the South is out of control.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Reminding that, unlike the US, Britain is a civilized country.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. Glad the Bobbies still have more class than so many of the bullies that inhabit the
American police departments. Of course their nanny surveillance state, bringing Orwell's 1084 to life, is another matter.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. This isn't about class
This might actually force some of their law enforcement officers to confront violent criminals vs running away.
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
8. statistics
from my half assed google search, it looks like there have been FOUR HUNDRED DEATHS BY TASER in the USA to date.

approximately.

Please confirm or deny this info!!!!!

If true, these tasers look pretty dangerous to life!


-90% Jimmy
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Amnesty International - Taser Abuse
http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/taser-abuse/page.do?id=1021202

Plenty of reading there. Two cites in my post above.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
11. good for them
as the potential for abuse by the po's is high, it is becoming apparent.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. Nothing beats a good club.....
:)

Look, I made a pun.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Why do British cops hate America?
:patriot:

Probably because they haven't fallen for Taser's slick marketing and actually looked at the statistics of taser deaths in the US.

Wouldn't it be nice if our own cops did the same?
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bully for them! nt
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
20. what a great idea... no tasing humans! Wow...
now if only we can get a hold on all the sadistic nazis currently pushing these things into law enforcement along with the scum bag politicians who made it all possible.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
21. don't tase me, bloke! eom
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. Right! Right!
Jolly good decision on the part of the old British police chaps, yes? Yes! Rippin' good blokes they are.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
30. No, untrained police officers! You take these tasers, right now!
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:


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