Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

[IndianaGreen]

Source: CNN

July 28th, 2009

Military planning for possible H1N1 outbreak

Posted: 08:21 PM ET
From Barbara Starr
CNN Pentagon Correspondent

WASHINGTON (CNN) — The U.S. military wants to establish regional teams of military personel to assist civilian authorities in the event of a significant outbreak of the H1N1 virus — the swine flu — this fall, according to Defense Department officials.

The proposal is awaiting final approval from Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

The officials would not be identified because the proposal from the U.S. Northern Command’s Gen. Victor Renuart has not been approved by the secretary.



Read more: http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/07/28/military-planning-for-possible-h1n1-outbreak/

---

Martial law? Exclusion zones? The possibilities of civil rights abuses are endless!

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. 1918, read on it. This is what happened in 1918

and the Guard was heavily involved on that.

Oh and part of national plans as well, and in a NATIONAL HEALTH EMERGENCY, your civil rights and my civil rights are indeed suspended. It is equivalent to Martial Law in some respects.

Oh and I forgot to add, but the emergency was declared in the first week or so of the break up. It has not been suspended, as far as I know.

[24601]

11. Yep, the "Spanish Flu" that had patient zero most likely in Kansas

spread accross the USA as trains moved WWI troops.

[JDPriestly]

63. The Bush administration merged the national guard and the military.

They were and should have remained two separate bodies. The national guard is the organization that helps in emergencies at home. The military is deployed for defense and around the world but not for other domestic purposes.

This is a really, really bad idea. Send the national guard home and send people who enlist in the other military services overseas and for defense here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Personally when my local hospital gets overwhelmed

I'd rather see the Health Teams in... that said in 1918 REGULAR Army teams were part of the mixture.

They did not do any law enforcent, but they did MEDICAL aide. This they can do. In fact, during Katrina THEY DID and that well before bush joined them at the hip, officially.

[madrchsod]

2. "bring out your dead"

someone has to collect the dead bodies in the street.......

[Downwinder]

3. From what I've heard,

the 1918 flue was worse in the military than in the civilian population. The military spread the infection.

[caseymoz]

5. It really spread like wildfire in the trenches before the war ended.

I can hardly imagine the misery of having life-threatening influenza in the trenches on the battlefield.

The war ending actually brought it to civilian populations for dozens of countries, which is probably why it killed so many people. I would be interested in learning about just how war conditions might have altered the virus. My guess is it probably gained virulence spreading through the armies.

[tocqueville]

6. most didn't die of the virus itself

but of following ailments due to the general poor health and inexistence of antibiotics to cure sequels

[caseymoz]

117. Many died of secondary pneumonia.

It doesn't help that the trenches were, well, made of filth. But in crowded spaces like that, the flu could mutate a few times and become deadlier when it becomes adapted to crowding. A more virulent strain can spread quicker in crowded spaces, straining the host to death to spread to as many as possible. When the population is sparser, it generally adapts to become milder, so the host can come in contact with others.

Now, that is all just my conjecture from what I've read about the biology of it. I really think the war must have intensified that plague. It definitely didn't help the mortality rate Germany was practically in famine by then.

[kimmerspixelated]

101. Exactly.

There is a large body of documentation that it was very much likely the first real bio-terror experiment. They vaccinated the soldiers, then sent them off to the drills using mustard gas(and the like) and then, voila- the mixture was quite toxic... and a deadly more contagious virus....was born.

[NickB79]

119. That makes no sense. The first flu vaccine was introduced in the US in 1944. NT

[diamidue]

123. They were vaccinated for yellow-fever

as well as several other diseases. It wreaked havoc on their systems, and on the systems of all who took them.

http://www.thenhf.com/vaccinations_68.htm

[NickB79]

128. Oh wow, an article from 1976 by an "alternative health specialist"

Your head looks cold. I think you need one of these :tinfoilhat:

[caseymoz]

4. I think an epidemic is a reasonable exception to civil rights.

And I think the legal precedents about it have long been set. Since there's no doubt that quarantine will save many lives, including innocent lives, during the run of a deadly epidemic, I can't find too much worry in my soul about this leading to general martial law.

No, they'll do that when the economy worsens (it'll probably get better before it gets worse, though), or when we then face worldwide environmental calamity. This might be a dry-run though.

[tocqueville]

7. there is no need to suspend any rights except the one of free assembly

I have read the French plans

basically it means that every unnecessary gathering will be prohibited.

schools will be run by TV
all entertainment events, sport, concerts postponed
Food, water, vaccine, medicine etc... distributed by the military (who will assist transport to hospitals)
All medical personnel will be requisitionned
a mobile heath system put in place to avoid overcrowded hospitals, field hospitals might be necessary (Civil Protection/Military)
Transportation will stop except for the necessary.
Factories except the necessary ones (energy, food processing, waste management etc...) will temporary close
Civil servants will be quarantined on their jobs to maintain infrastructure and state of law (prevent gauging)
Border control reinforced
If things turn really bad a curfew is possible (more to prevent looting than for contagion)


after probably 3 weeks things will probably go back slowly to normal

Since "everybody" has TV/radio or/and the internet, information is easy to spread.

I don't expect a military coup, there is no need to be paranoid. Besides the virus is only lethal in a few cases, it's normally not worse than a regular flu... but the numbers of contaminated is the key

[Arctic Dave]

8. The virus is no more lethal then the normal season flu, so why involve the military?

Seems incredibly over the top. We do not do this every fall when flu season starts. Sounds a bit suspicious to me. IMHO

[tocqueville]

9. because they have huge logistic ressources

that Civil Protection (French FEMA) relies on. Besides a lot of them are trained for those jobs since they have done similar stuff overseas while peace-keeping. And they are paid to take risks, go into contaminated areas. This must to a certain extent even apply in the US. It doesn't mean they have to carry a gun while distributing masks, tissues or Tamiflu. And if there are grisly jobs to do, like temporary mass graves, they are better prepared to deal with it.

Another point is that even if lethality is low, the risk is that a far bigger part of the population will be contaminated compared with a normal flu episode. Instead of having hundred of thousands contaminated, the risk of millions is probable. Only a factor ten has incredible consequences. There is a big difference between the "normal" 8000 deaths a year (mostly elderly) related to a normal flu and 80 000 with the same lethality level because far more are touched (and in the current case not only elderly), not to talk about 800 000 if for example "everybody" gets it. We will probably have massive mandatory vaccination campaigns in September. And that demands huge resources to vaccinate let says 30 millions (50%) as a start...

[Arctic Dave]

12. I can understand the logistics help sort of. Most military logistics is outsourced anymore though.

However, this still doesn't realty answer the question of why the need for military involvement for a non lethal event. Assuming the military is any less affected by the flu, which seems they wouldn't be considering the close living quarters. As for being prepared for filling mass graves, no one is ever prepared for that.

Aftr thought:
Why is it the military can do all of this here in the states but are somehow unable to to the same job in the middle east or where ever. Hmmmm.

[tocqueville]

15. I updated on lethality

Of course the military will be better protected because vaccinated and "tamiflued", wearing security equipment (in the worst cases they could go with NBC equipment) etc...
and even if nobody is mentally prepared, the military is a better tool for that kind of job than your local undertaker, who doesn't even have bulldozers and desinfection equipment by tons.

[tocqueville]

18. regarding you afterthought

Europeans have emphasized this aspect of the military more than in the US. And as you said they outsourced a lot, we didn't. But despite all screw ups, they were able to break down the deadlock in the Katrina aftermath, before things started to organize. Anyway the whole thing wasn't very convincing, so I understand your doubts.

[caseymoz]

118. They are preparing for the worst case.

None of it will probably be necessary, let's hope.

[barb162]

17. And what if it mutates to a deadly form like 1918?

[tocqueville]

20. the current virus is basically the same

deaths in 1918 were due to the appalling health conditions in the world, including the US, specially for the poor. Most died of sequels, not of the virus. Sequels that are easily treated to day like bacterial lung infections. But it the virus mutates like the one of the bird flu, we are in big doo-doo, even if our losses will be relatively limited compared to the 3rd world..

[Arctic Dave]

23. And what if monkeys fly out of my........

Everybody run the sky is falling.

[barb162]

83. How cute, BUT "Drug-resistant strain of H1N1 mutation discovered"

New swine flu fears: Drug-resistant strain of H1N1 mutation discovered

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/07/02/2009-07-02_new_swine_flu_fears_drugresistant_strain_of_h1n1_discovered.html#ixzz0MfmVKnid


April 29, 2009
As Swine Flu Spreads, Its Chances to Mutate Increase
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/04/as-swine-flu-sp.html

[caseymoz]

121. Sky is falling? Are you kidding? This is the same country that has shrugged about global warming

for the last 20 years, and treats widespread pollution with hormone disruptors, which may threaten or alter the evolution of every animal species on the planet, as though it isn't even newsworthy. If our public is able to sleep in denial through worldwide cataclysm, a temporary pandemic is a piece of cake.

Panic is overrated these days. Denial and ignorance are the real dangers today. No, here we're just talking about precautions.

[Arctic Dave]

127. Global warming is worse but the military can't play with the toys with scenerio.

As for the swine flu, I am more concerned about antibiotic resistant staph and norovirus the that.

[Mojorabbit]

22. If a boatload of

truckers are out sick, goods will not be moved and supermarket shelves will not be filled, same if electrical plant workers are ill, water treatment plant workers, etc. Hospitals can not manage a surge of patients like they expect in the fall. There just is not the staff nor bed space. If enough hospital staff are out ill, the situation is even worse. I am hoping it does not mutate to a more virulent form, I am hoping it doesn't become resistant to tamiflu. It could be bad or not. No one will know till it is over. Best to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
I have a family member in the military who is also a nurse and they can come in and help with medical care if the state requests it and they will request it.

[Arctic Dave]

25. Ok, so if we are talking pandemic here how will a few thousand, at the most, nurses

nurses help. Since they will most likely be already being utilized at whatever location they are at plus manage the militaries health care .

[Mojorabbit]

74. Emergency teams

of docs, nurses and medics that set up field hospitals and help overwhelmed hospitals triage when there is a surge of patients in a natural disaster. They have been doing this for decades.

[Arctic Dave]

75. I have been through mass casuality drills, these are for local emergencies.

I think that everyone Is being over optimistic with the "Calvary" mentality, the Us was barely able to get things done when one place was detroyed from a hurricane can you imagine the entire nation full of patients. Depending soley on the military as the saving grace is a little over rated. I would say the Us needs to start looking past that and think of a national response.

[Mojorabbit]

76. I totally agree

I am seeing a lot of responses that think military help would be a bad thing. I just wanted to point out that is some places it can be a good thing.

[caseymoz]

124. I don't think it will be nearly that bad.

But I think precaution and preparation is definitely necessary. I hope it's more than adequate.

One difference in a pandemic is that it can be a prolonged event. Not just three weeks. The 1918 pandemic in the US lasted 9 months, and, at its peak, they surgeon general had thoughts that it could kill everybody in the world within another year at the rate it was going. Three weeks later, it was gone. The deaths plunged. It stopped spreading. Apparently, in the very week the Surgeon General was ready to panic, it had hit every susceptible person, left them dead or immune, and then died out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Because it is already higer than the regular flu

look at the CDC numbers, they do publish them, every friday

Yesterday I was looking at them the national agreggate is over 0.6% lethality, regular flu is 0.5% and in osme states it is well over 1% already.

Did I mention that this is happening IN THE SUMMER?

[tavalon]

89. Yeah, and this is the first wave

the second wave should arrive around late October or November and that's going to make this look like nothing. Even if it stays at the same lethality.

[caseymoz]

125. Yes, and you don't usually see a flu spread in the summer-- at all.

That shows its more contagious than most.

[tavalon]

96. Many, many people have been exposed to components of the normal seasonal flu

With the exception of the somewhat lucky recipients of the swine flu in this first wave, there is no one on the earth with any immunity to this flu, therefore, even if it isn't more lethal than the "normal flu", during the second wave, at least 10 times as many people (probably more) will get infected so instead of 8000 deaths in the US from flu this winter, it can and may well be 80,000 or 800,000 and the civil disruption that will cause is mind boggling. Schools will close, food transportation will be severely effected and hospitals will not be able to keep up. That's the problem. If this mutates and becomes more lethal, then it's going to be exponentially worse, but just looking at it as a strain no more lethal than the seasonal flu but with no immunity at all in the herd, it's going to be quite the experience.

[Blandocyte]

16. But I need my pizzas delivered

I suppose that won't be considered "necessary." Fascist bastards! ;-)

[kimmerspixelated]

102. The thing to worry about is a forced vaccination!

Unless we call congress now!

[caseymoz]

122. You're exactly right. nt

[Demeter]

70. You May be in a class all by yourself, then

[FirstLight]

10. forced vaccinations...?

Is that what another poster upthread mentioned, in terms of the military 'transporting' you to & from hospital for vaccinations...

So even if the vaccines are rushed and not proven safe, it will be a MANDATORY thing?

fuck that

[tocqueville]

13. better be shot with a needle in the butt

than with a bullet in the head. Besides it would be stupid to transport people packed in trucks to a center to do that, good way of contamination. The right thing is to organize small mobile units and vaccinate those that haven't done it voluntarily as a good citizen and can prove it. All flu medicine and vaccines will be free of charge in France.

[debunkthelies]

68. Personally

I think the mutated flu is in the vaccines, and will be spread on purpose.
I think everyone should opt for self quarantine.

[CoffeeCat]

71. I agree that this is all suspicious...

...and I wouldn't be surprised if this rush-to-vaccinate leads to
some kind of crisis.

I noticed that they are doing clinical trials right now, with the virus. I'm in Iowa,
and they're doing testing with this vaccine in Iowa City. Our local news spread the
information that they're looking for babies, children and adults to get the shot.

So, if people will get ill from this vaccine--won't we find out pretty soon--as these
trials should be underway now?

[kimmerspixelated]

105. Because Big Pharma will do ANYTHING to make a profit

I don't trust that this tester vax is anything but a placebo!!!

[kimmerspixelated]

104. DINGDINGDING!!!!!!!!!

YES< OPT FOR SELF QUARANTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NickB79]

120. Everyone opt for self-quarantine?

Well, if you enjoy grocery stores empty of food, hospitals empty of staff, fire and police unavailable.

A large segment of the population HAS to be vaccinated to avoid social collapse during a pandemic.

[tavalon]

19. They won't transport you

They will come to you. It wouldn't be less forced but the hospitals will have no time for the uninfected.

[tocqueville]

21. why so ?

in what way a guy in green giving you a shot at a local gathering point (if you can't prove you already have a certificate) would give more job to hospitals ? Rather the contrary.
The more vaccinated people, less people in hospitals for flu treatment.

And I don't buy the "forced" argument. If you don't accept vaccination you become a potential bearer, thus a threat to your community. But in such a case I think that vaccination should be free.

[FirstLight]

24. rushed production and big pharma $$$ + military = dangerous

not to hip to the jive, if you ask me.

My family has a genetic predisposition to auto-immune disease and vaccinations cause the immune system to trigger the malfunction. so I refuse to go anywhere NEAR vaccinations...all types. My children too.
My sister and her kids are always ill and have been vaccinated for everything as well as take flushots every year...so my own anecdotal evidence is enough to convince me ...that and my own research hasn't convinced me that vaccines are the end-all-be-all of preventative medicine.

Flame away of you like, but I would rather take my chances with infection than get shot with a cocktail of god knows what. No lengthy trials, no testing, just take some live virus and inject it into the general populace and see if it helps... what about the 1975 vaccination debacle with Gillian-Barre Syndrome?

no thanks. I live in a rural area and would like to think that would make it easier for me to keep clear from this type of insanity...

[earcandle]

28. That sounds totally sensible to me.

Good luck with that... I live in the city.  I never take
vaccines except tetanus and tuberculosis.  
I don't think I want a bullet.  but maybe I can avoid it
somehow ......certainly don't want one.
unless Baxter made a statement about what the Chechs
discovered about their vaccines.  Because they
haven't even bothered makes me uncomfortable.

[tavalon]

91. Then go get respirator masks - n95 for each of your family members

Don't get just regular masks, they won't help. Make sure your family knows how to use them and practice social isolation. Use the masks whenever you encounter anyone.

[kimmerspixelated]

106. I AGREE!

Good for you! I feel the same. Just say no to vaxxing. The general public has been brainwashed into thinking it's the only answer!

[tavalon]

86. No the hospitals will be overwhelmed with the first wave of victims

and by the second wave, the hospitals will likely just be really big morgues, morgues full of people who died of H1N1 so that is the last place anyone would transport you to get you vaccinated. Neither will they gather you anywhere to get the shots because large groups of people together during such a thing is a big no no, so if forced vaccination comes (and I don't know that it will), it will be done house to house. Of course the vaccinations in that situation would be free, and yeah, they would be involuntary as well. Hey, I'm on the front lines so I'll be one of the first to lose my civil liberties and I'm not exactly jumping up and down. I've spent many a conference day finding out about what would happen in a high lethality pandemic since we have been expecting this for almost a decade and in fact, thought it was going to be H5N1 that was coming. It may still, but this new wolf is knocking at the door right now so the same planning will go into place.

People are so focused on the vaccinations, they haven't even considered the problems with child care since the schools will be closed and they haven't even thought about how many businesses will close down in the interim and may even be forced to close down in the interim. They haven't considered that the transportation of food to stores may be cut off (though that will be one area where the military who will definitely have forced vaccinations, will be very, very helpful).

BTW, you seem to be assuming that forced vaccinations will happen in advance of the next wave of this pandemic. It won't happen. By the time forced vaccinations become required, the second wave of this pandemic will be well underway. There is no political will to alienate people with forced vaccinations before the devastation would require it.

[debunkthelies]

67. Mandatory...

Micro-chipping, un-tested vaccines, this stuff reads like a Resident Evil movie complete with Umbrella Corp. and flesh eating zombies.:argh: :scared: :banghead: :hide:
Yeah and double F that. I'd rather drink cyanide than put another penny in these vampires pockets:mad:

[kimmerspixelated]

103. TOUCHE'!!

Health Fascism=Forced Vaccinations!

[Hannah Bell]

109. they've already legislated non-liability for any harmful effects.

one reason i'll avoid it if possible.

i believe in personal responsibility. pharmacorps & our legislators don't, so bollocks to them.

[Hannah Bell]

110. edit

[diamidue]

126. Amen.

I'm just astonished at how ill-informed or just plain clueless so many of the posters are on this subject.

Just ready to hand over their bodies and the bodies of their children to the military and big pharma to be injected with untested chemicals, without a second thought.

[Blandocyte]

14. Are they going to shoot it?

[BeHereNow]

26. The swine flu is chemical warfare on the people- as are the vaccines.

Culling the herd, so to speak- Wolfowitz is having full body orgasms over
the success of his PNAC suggestion in the document "Rebuilding America's Defences"

http://www.augustforecast.com/2009/07/28/swine-flu-pigs-to-fly-soon/

BHN

[kimmerspixelated]

107. Excellent!

Thanks for posting.

[earcandle]

27. Why AM i THINKING "WIZARD OF OZ...FAKE NEWS"???

i AM THINKING THIS BECAUSE OF THE "1984" STORY....
IT WAS ALL AN ILLUSION.

How can we send out our own emissaries to find out what is
real and what is illusion?
Join Al Jazeera?  Become a real journalist?  That sounds
really cool to me. 

Baxter leak, oh yea, oh yea.  

I would prefer it. 

I can see me now.

No MORE ACCOUNTING, I finally find my REAL PROFESSION and stop
dumping on DU!


nice thought. 

[CoffeeCat]

29. Miltary Preparing for Possible H1N1 Outbreak

Source: CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military wants to establish regional teams of military personnel to assist civilian authorities in the event of a significant outbreak of the H1N1 virus this fall, according to Defense Department officials.

The proposal is awaiting final approval from Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

The officials would not be identified because the proposal from U.S. Northern Command's Gen. Victor Renuart has not been approved by the secretary.

The plan calls for military task forces to work in conjunction with the Federal Emergency Management Agency. There is no final decision on how the military effort would be manned, but one source said it would likely include personnel from all branches of the military.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/index.html

---

Isn't this a little over the top?

The Swine Flu is very weak, compared to a typical flu--which comes around every season. So far, a small percentage
die from it (less than most flues), and the symptoms are very weak. In a typical flu season, 35,000 Americans die
from it. I didn't see the military intervening last year, or the year before--when 35,000 Americans died from the flu.

Why are we readying the military on this one?

Yes, this flu could become more deadly as it mutates and spreads this fall. However, no one knows if this will happen.

Why the need for such strong military intervention?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. As I explained already today

the Health Emergency was declared a week after this broke. It has not been cancelled. Using the military is almost standard in a health emergency, just that the last one where they even went on alert was 1968. And in 1918 they became very active... oh and civil rights, the moment they were declared, if this thing goes worst case scenario... forget about them.

We do not know yet, if it will mutate or not. If it does, it will be interesting

As is, your run of the mill flu has a 0.05% lethality, right now this sucker is at 1%... and it is not killing the usual suspects either.

Keep up with CDC... oh and the mild part... it depends on your luck. Sis got it bad, BIL got it less bad, nephews got a fever, I just got general malaise for two weeks. But people have died from this sucker already.

Oh and I forgot, our media hasn't had stories in the national MSM, but I have them locally almost every week, at times more often. International media has been on top of this.

[Horse with no Name]

31. A friend of mine got it

his Po2 when he got to the hospital was 66.
Yes, I said 66. He was Careflited immediately.
He is in his early 50's. He almost died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. PO2 of 60... that gives me the shivers... WOW

Hypoxia...

For those readying normal numbers are 97-98... at 80 or so you are very dizzy.

WOW.

Hope he has no sequelae from that.

HUGS

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. I forget the exact number but our friend was down there WITH oxygen.

I'm not familiar with that stuff but by medical field working boyfriend started looking at flights when he heard the number. We thought we would be attending a funeral.

We held vigil via text for a week.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. What in Mexico? I was down there when it first broke

that is where BIL probably got it from

Ironically I got it HERE two months later.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

46. Sorry. Po2 was down there in that range.

My friend is in Phoenix.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Hope he is able to recover, with few or no sequelae (consequences)

[Horse with no Name]

42. Previously no respiratory problems

Went home with a concentrator, Advair (probably for life) and breathing treatments.
Good news was that he went home.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You are right, he went home

I am sorry. Reality is that we will not see these sequelae outside the official stats.

Good luck to your friend

[Horse with no Name]

45. Check your pm n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. I just did, let me check again

[Horse with no Name]

52. kk should be there. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Yeah and you got an answer

[Sigh Sister]

100. A friend of my sister's got it

He was flying home from Europe and felt a little unwell. By the time he landed in the US, he was so sick that had to immediately take him to the hospital. He spent a month in ICU on a vent and was discharged to rehab this week. He now has a tracheotomy and still has to be on a vent at night. He was previously healthy with no underlying health conditions.

[Kittycat]

32. OP Should also keep in mind...

that unlike regular flu, it carried through the summer months. Meaning it has the ability to escalate to more people as the colder months approach. My neighbors just got over it a few weeks ago. They were on quarantine in their home for 10 days after it was discovered.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. the problem is that people are VERY CYNICAL any more about anything

and all has to be part of a real conspiracy. We are so suspicious of our government it is not even funny.

The ever so popular peter and the wolf...

Problem is, this might be the real thing.

[BeHereNow]

38. I don't believe a word of it, at least not the "official" reports.

http://www.augustforecast.com/2009/07/28/swine-flu-pigs-to-fly-soon/

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Well, you may or not, but I know we have been expecting this

for ten years or so.

We are actually overdue. We, as a species, get whooped with an animal sourced pandemic every generation or so.

And have been getting whooped since Homo Sapiens first walked on the planet.

[Kittycat]

57. And Climate Change is a Myth

It's only a matter of time dude. Don't get worked up, but be aware, be cautious, and be prepared. You don't have to act like the world is coming to an end, but don't be so foolish to think it could never happen to you. That's called common sense.

[BeHereNow]

114. Firstly, I am NOT a dude. And did you actually take the time

To read the link that I posted, you know the one you responded to?
Methinks not, "Dude."
BHN

[CoffeeCat]

69. So, how do you avoid...

...getting a "mandatory vaccination" if it comes down to that?

I don't know that it will come down to that, but that's one assertion that's flying through the air.

I have two elementary-school-aged children, and I just can't imagine vaccinating them with this stuff.
Live virus that has barely been tested.

They're just now asking for people to be part of clinical trials. I know they're doing this in my
state, in Iowa City. Our local news issued the call--asking for people to be part of the trials.
They even specifically asked for babies as well as children and adults. Who would subject their
baby or young child to a clinical trial?

Right now, our kids can't get into school unless they've had their standard vaccinations. My kids
have had those vaccinations. I don't have a problem with those vaccinations. I'm wary of this
hastily created vaccine. I'm wary because I know how powerful big Pharma has become, and I'm sure
they're calling the shots--with our politicians kow towing to them--with very little regard for
public safety.

I hope this is like any other flu season...you can get the shot if you wont, but it's not mandatory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. I doubt we will get to the mandatory stage

because from all that is out there, we know they will be very short in the production end of it.

Triage as to WHO gets it will be the order of the day. And as to testing, this will be as tested as the annual one.

[CoffeeCat]

80. Thank you for your insight....

...on this subject. I'm more skeptical than you are, but I always appreciate what you
have to say and I appreciate your knowledge.

With that said, I was reading about Swine Flu last night, and I read some articles that
point toward this flu being especially hard on obese people. I read it on Bloomberg and
other reliable sources. Have you heard anything about this?

I wonder if this is typical of the flu. If someone is obese, they are more likely to
have other underlying medical conditions (hypertension, diabetes, etc) that might make
them more susceptible. So, the question remains--is it the weight itself or other
underlying conditions of these obese people that makes it more likely that they succumb
to this flu more than the average person?

Again, I appreciate your deep interest in this subject and that you share the information with others on DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. All the underlying conditions

It will also be especially hard with people with diabetes, sends the sugars to hell and a hand basket, and can send the patient into a comma, or people with Asthma. I got the double whammy.

The vitamin D is kind of a nice excuse. It is all the underlying conditions. Why if for example I get it worst than I did... I'll end up at your neighborhood ER.

[kimmerspixelated]

111. Sign the petition at

Natural Solutions Foundation. I believe it is : www.healthfreedom.org or


salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/568/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=27275


In my state, I signed a school waiver for my child for the reg. vax's, and they didn't even bat an eye. Just another file to them.

[tavalon]

92. Believe what you will

We in the medical community have been preparing for the inevitable pandemic for a while now so we know a lot of what is going to go on. You can listen to us and be a little prepared or don't listen to us and be not prepared at all. Your choice.

[tavalon]

90. Exactly!

I've heard so much cynicism and that's what is going to bite people in the butt. We are still in the "if" stage but a high lethality pandemic is a given. They've happened throughout history and all the medical progress in the world won't stop the next one and we all need to be prepared. It will happen this fall, or next year or 50 years from now but it will happen. Guaranteed.

[Oregone]

39. "and it is not killing the usual suspects either"

In Oregon (Im visiting), an article stated:

Median Age on contraction: 12

Median Age of hospitalization: 20

Median age of death: 37

Fatality rate is now over 1% in that state.

Im about 30, so you know, Im not scoffing. If my kids bring it home, I wont be as lucky as them, death or not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Friday I will get the aggregator from CDC... it has

the numbers for lethality and all that.

In Cali when sis took kids to Children's, they were told it is widespread. She works in a hospital, believe it or not and it was a sunrise to her. She is a dietitian. I keep up with it, out of curiosity... and professional fascination, since I first heard of this over ten years ago as a field medic, actually ten years ago.

[Oregone]

35. "The Swine Flu is very weak, compared to a typical flu" - LOL

Ya get that from Fox News?!?

"So far, a small percentage die from it (less than most flues), and the symptoms are very weak. "

:rofl:

[tavalon]

93. Yeah, it's that kind of willful denial that is really, really disheartening

[ashling]

36. My son in law is on the aircraft carrier _______

and apparently there is at least one case on board.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. One thing the military does is quarantine very well

so to a point he's lucky...

[salguine]

47. They couldn't keep Richard Dreyfus from Devil's Tower.

[salguine]

49. Why does this make me convinced the military's involvement would be anything but benevolent?

[tavalon]

94. It wouldn't be

And mistakes would be made and atrocities committed. And they will be a vital and necessary part of the next highly lethal pandemic. I started to say the next pandemic but we are in one right now, even if people don't seem to understand what that means.

[Matariki]

54. Wow - this is likely to engender a bunch of paranoia...

[winyanstaz]

55. Well of course we will need the army and the marines and the airforce...

to make sure everyone takes their "shots" like the government will order us.
Never mind those people getting sick and dropping dead that already got the shots or that the ordinary flu kills thousands more than this new "scary" flu.
Even though it normally takes around 18 months for the drug companies to make a shot for a new flu...we are extra..extra lucky that they have some shots ready in just a couple of months :P
Of course you don't need to worry just because it has not been tested much....just take the drug companies and the governments word for it that it is safe and wont cause your kids to be autistic or brain damaged or suffer extreme neurological disorders like that last recommended flu shot back in the 70's that killed more people than the flu ever did.
We actually need the National Guard too..you know..the branch of the military that is actually supposed to be the one that helps citizens in times of emergency and trouble...but they are on the other side of the frigging world where they can't help their families and friends and fellow citizens. Besides, you can't count on them to shoot anyone that refuses to go to the camps.
So what is the military to do but use those new recruits from the prisons and the illegals that want a green card? At least you can be sure they will be happy to "help" you get your shots.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Several points about this post

The annual flu shot starts development in the Spring of the YEAR IT IS USED. It is a guessing game of what strain might hit us this year. So let me see, Spring to Fall, does not make eighteen months, now does it?

The death rate for this sucker is already HIGHER than the regular flu... keep up... CDC posts the figures.

It is active in the SUMMER... not the fall or the Winter

Using the military for health emergencies is SOP, and it was also SOP the last time they were mobilized... aka 1918... and the health emergency has not been cancelled.

Finally, nobody expects them to make enough vaccine, we actually expect quite a bit of triage as to who gets what, and that also includes antivirals. Oh speaking of those I am sure you know (not) that it is starting to show resistance to Tamiflu.

[winyanstaz]

60. it was two months from the announcment of the new virus to the announcment of the new vacine...

MONDAY, May 18 (HealthDay News) -- While most cases of swine flu continue to be no worse than seasonal flu, the death rate from the new H1N1 virus is slightly higher than that seen with seasonal flu, U.S. health officials said Monday...
*
(but the yearly death rate from either is not yet established at this point....However regular flu usually kills in the thousands and so far..we have not hit that number yet.)* my words not theirs are in paranthases

The health officials go on to say : On Sunday night, an assistant principal at a New York City public school became the sixth person in the United States to die from the disease that was first identified last month. On Monday, ABC News rep
* I realize this is from May and it is now July..but hey..guess what? it is still not the terrible pandemic that requires the military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. And your point... the first trials for the yearly vaccine

are done in may june too.

And that story is FROM MAY... KEEP UP. Here you go

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/

[winyanstaz]

87. they are still doing the tests in Seattle...just so you know..they are NOT done

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Of course not, but this is the way it is done every year

that is why by August they are rushing them... because the REGULAR flu needs to be rolled out by mid September.

They are expecting this one not to be ready until mid October, and the supply will be SMALL.

So mandatory, not so much. At least that part of the paranoia should subside.

[tavalon]

95. There are certain posts that it just isn't worth responding to

There are people who can understand and there are people hell bent on creating the worst case scenario and running around with their hair on fire. Guess which one I think the poster you just replied to is.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. It would really help if you were somewhat informed about the issue.

[tavalon]

97. With a name like that, I would assume you've been to plenty of pandemic preparedness conferences,

Just like me. Help out here, would you? Add your knowledge.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Double post. Self delete.

[Techn0Girl]

64. I was in the Military when we deployed in the 70's for a flu epidemic...

It was 1977 (or 78 darn it - a LONG time ago). I was a member of the 2nd Combat Support Hospital at Ft Benning which was a field deployable 200 bed M.U.S.T unit at the time. The was a horrible flu epidemic going on and it was an H1N1 variant as well - the same family that is going on now and the same family that caused the Spanish flu epidemic. At the time only younger adults were being hit hard by it because the older ones already had immunity from the flu 50 years ago.

Ft. Benning was overwhelmed. Martin Army hospital was overwhelmed. Soldiers all over the base were getting sick and it would put you down for a good four or five days (keep in mind you have to be REALLY REALLY sick to get time off in the Army - if you have a cold and a 100 degree fever you generally just take some aspirin or whatever and truck on). And the soldiers at the base were in really good health too.

We deployed our 200 bed field hospital fully in the in the parking lot of Martin Army Hosp and supported the hospital personnel with diagnostic, lab and other services because so many hospital personnel were too ill to work. Most of what I did, since I worked in the O.R. was sterilize thermometers (LOTS of thermometers) and other equipment. I did it with a 102 degree temp (wearing gloves and a face mask) because I didn't want to go into the hospital myself because rumor was you just got sicker in there. Besides I was already in a hospital and I was young and blah blah blah.

Anyway , deploying our Field hospital for a couple of weeks and filling in with personnel and services worked wonders and helped avert possibly a bigger disaster for everyone .

If this flu is like the one in 77 (or whenever it was) then there won't be many deaths but a LOT of people will be getting really ill for a week or so. Using military medical resources isn't a weird government plot (puhleeze people) but probably could save many lives. Military personnel will keep on working with 102 degree temps if that's what it takes to accomplish the mission (and hey, it didn't hurt that my field O.R. unit was air conditioned and it was Georgia ...but I digress) . When the young men and women running the hospitals start getting sick (if that's what happens ) then you'll be glad the military field medics were there to lend a hand. Hey and it was good training too ( lol - ex Army people will smile at that)

Kudos to the Obama administration for thinking ahead like this!

[JDPriestly]

65. Several of the people posting how delighted they are with this idea

have joined DU not so very long ago. I think the idea is absolutely awful.

When I was in high school, I had friends who volunteered in civil defense. They were not considered members of the military. I sometimes went with them. Does that kind of organization still exist? It was quite well organized and capable and manned by volunteers. Maybe if that no longer exists, we need to reconstitute something like that -- outside the military.

[kimmerspixelated]

108. Because the agenda is to Vaccinate

to vacate the planet... OR the very least so BIG PHARMA can make some more evil bastard money!!!!!!!!

[JDPriestly]

62. The military would be completely out of place trying to assist in caring

for flu sufferers. The problems are dehydration, fever, etc. We need armies of mothers, not armies of soldiers. Soldiers have absolutely no training in the kinds of skills needed in a flu epidemic. This is a ridiculous idea.

Unless they think that Americans are going to become violent for some reason -- maybe because our health care institutions are completely inadequate for the demand that a flu epidemic might create?

This does not make sense. It's a very, very troubling development. Nothing against soldiers, but I wouldn't want the ones I have known around me if I were very, very sick.

This looks like an excuse for conducting exercises to prepare for the military take-over of the country. This is just a continuation of the Bush/Cheney policies. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but this makes no sense at all.

[Mojorabbit]

73. I totally disagree

The medical personnel of the military would be perfect to do what they do in disasters,which is set up field hospitals and help regular hospitals triage a surge of people coming in to be seen. I have a family member in the military that was deployed to help when RI had that horrible fire and the hospitals were overwhelmed. It is done all the time when needed. It has been done way before Bush/Cheney.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. These teams are EMERGENCY MEDICAL TEAMS

and are part of any NAITONAL DISASTER PLAN.

You are talking out of your ass.

Oh and they did the SAME THING in 1918, in case you missed it. Or in the 1950s and 1968

They SUPPORTED local and state Emergency teams, but I am sure you knew that

[JDPriestly]

84. As long as it is only the medical disaster teams.

The national guard used to do this kind of thing before Bush federalized them. He made a horrible mistake in doing that. I believe that was a prelude to abolishing the limitations on using defense troops within the U.S. That is part of the mentality of being an empire rather than a country. I think we have to be much more careful about this use of any military arm in the U.S. than we were in 1918 or even 1968.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. The Guard gets federalized every time they go onto disaster mode

since well before Bush... again, I am sure you knew that. I will give you a very concrete example, when a guard unit goes across state borders to aide in firefighting they have to be federalized to do that.

But this is exactly what the plan contemplates, using Military EMERGENCY teams to augment local teams.

MPs will be used, those will be GUARD teams... under a Governor's control, unless another governor requests them, in which case they will get federalized. Bush just made a lot of noise over the procedure.

Worst case scenario... this gets bad enough... we will even see INTERNATIONAL medical teams, if other countries can afford to send them.

[tavalon]

98. Second sentence, you explained a part of why they will be necessary

They will be needed for quarantining duties and they will be needed for morgue and burial needs, assuming (and this is not a given, thank god) that this mutates to be like the 1918 flu. With the exception of the military nurses, they won't be utilized to help with caregiving but they will be passing out pamphlets to teach family members who will be taking care of their relatives. They will serve many vital purposes, even heroic purposes and they will violate rights and fuck up plenty along the way. But, I for one, will welcome their help.

I'll admit, I'm pretty scared because I'm going to be on the front line and I'm fairly young, have asthma and have proven in the past to have a robust cytokine response system. I don't particularly want to die and leave my family behind but as a nurse, I have responsibilities and unless it just looks useless, I will do what I'm supposed to. And if it comes to it, I may well be one of the nurses coming to your house to make sure you've had the vaccine, a vaccine that has been poorly tested and brought way too quickly to the market and if you refuse it, the military individual by my side, will assist you in receiving the vaccine. That's worst case scenario and I fucking hate it, but if it ends up being 1918 all over again, I will do my part to protect the herd. And as a good Democrat, I will cry every night knowing that the last thing I ever wanted to do was take away someone's rights that way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Realize they will only be able to get 200 doses out

so you will not be forced to vax anybody

It will be more of the Triage... to see who gets it. On the bright side, you will

[HiyaEmerald Eyes]

66. People who are obese

http://www.wlwt.com/health/20208343/detail.html
CINCINNATI -- A Tri-State family is grieving after losing a son and daughter to the H1N1 virus just months apart.

Katrina and Mark McIntosh said their nightmare began on June 24 when their 19-year-old son Matt started feeling sick.

"Sometimes he runs a fever with a sinus infection or something. I didn't even think anything about it," Katrine McIntosh said.

However, he started coughing up blood a few days later, beginning downward spiral that ended just one week later as his heart gave out from the virus.

"It was the most horrible thing I've ever done; watch him get sicker and sicker. He didn't get any better," McIntosh said.

At the same time, their 26-year-old daughter Mindy started to feel sick, too.

After weeks on a ventilator, she started to feel better and begin a recover.

"It was best day of my life on Saturday. We got to spend a little bit of time with her, we didn't get that with Matt," McIntosh said.

The following morning, Mindy started getting worse and 48 hours later she passed away, leaving both parents reeling from the deaths of their children.



http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind.asp

People who are obese
Individuals with a body mass index (BMI) ≥30 typically have a low plasma concentration of 25(OH)D <47>; this level decreases as obesity and body fat increase <48>. Obesity does not affect skin's capacity to synthesize vitamin D, but greater amounts of subcutaneous fat sequester more of the vitamin and alter its release into the circulation. Even with orally administered vitamin D, BMI is inversely correlated with peak serum concentrations, probably because some vitamin D is sequestered in the larger pools of body fat <47>.

[CoffeeCat]

72. So, how does Vitamin D play a role in fighting...

...off this Swine Flu?

Do you take it before you are sick--or after? How much? Are the standard vitamin D capsules
that you get from any store, sufficient?

Are you also saying that Vitamin may help fend off the Swine Flu, but in obese people Vitamin
D will not help because it gets trapped in body fat? Is there any way to combat this? Higher
levels of Vitamin D, perhaps?

[tavalon]

99. Anyone who has a vitamin D deficiency is counseled to take 2000iu daily

I don't know if there is some other protocol to protect one from viruses.

Pretty much anyone who lives up north as I do is on the 2000iu dose just as par for the course. We never see the yellow orb except for a short time in the summer.

[tiptoe]

116. H1N1 Flu and Vitamin D (What to do re the possibility of an H1N1 flu pandemic) -- Dr. John Cannell

Are the standard vitamin D capsules that you get from any store, sufficient?"

FAQ, short executive answers, and access to detailed answers — What to do re the possibility of an H1N1 flu pandemic -- Dr. John Cannell

My short executive answers:

1. Take enough Vitamin D3 to get your 25(OH)D level above substrate starvation levels (50 ng/mL or 125 nmol/L). ...

2. It is clear to me that Vitamin D did not play a controlling role in 1918. The lethality of the 1918 virus easily overwhelmed innate immunity, although I am unwilling to impair my innate immunity by taking inadequate doses of Vitamin D.

3. Stock your home's pharmacy with several fresh bottles of  50,000 IU capsules of Vitamin D3  (a medicine at this dosage, not a supplement)

and if you get this flu, take 2,000 IU per kg of body weight per day for a week. ...
4. Get the H1N1 flu shot as soon as it is available in the fall, especially if the virus shows evidence of lethality this summer in the southern hemisphere. ...

5. Besides the above actions, stock up on TamiFlu in your home medicine cabinet, so you have it next fall and winter. And follow common-sense precautions, especially frequent hand washing.

6. ... The idea that seasonal influenza or the common cold is a symptom, even the presence of the virus itself being a symptom of an underlying condition, is foreign to modern medical thought. Influenza researchers at the CDC and NIH think only in terms of vaccines and anti-virals, mainly because most of them have such strong economic affiliations with some aspect of the influenza industry. The idea of diagnosing and treating Vitamin D deficiency as one part of influenza preparedness is simply foreign to them. Unfortunately, their attitude contributes to the 36,000 deaths every year in the USA from seasonal influenza and leaves American's innate immune system naked in facing a pandemic.

Refer to main link above for sources, instructions for boosting vitamin d status into "optimal ranges" and Detailed answers
...

The crucial role of vitamin D in the innate immune system was discovered only very recently. Both epithelial cells and macrophages increase expression of the antimicrobial cathelicidin upon exposure to microbes, an expression that is dependent upon the presence of vitamin D. Pathogenic microbes STIMULATE the production of an enzyme that converts 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D, a seco-steroid hormone. This in turn rapidly activates a suite of genes involved in pulmonary defense.

Unlike adaptive immunity, innate immunity is that branch of host defense that is "hard-wired" to respond rapidly to microorganisms using genetically encoded effectors that are ready for activation by an antigen before the body has ever encountered that antigen. Of the effectors, the best studied are the antimicrobial peptides (AMPs). Both epithelial tissues and phagocytic blood cells produce AMPs; they exhibit rapid and broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity against bacteria, fungi, and viruses. In general, they act by rapidly and irreversibly damaging the lipoprotein membranes of microbial targets, including enveloped viruses, like influenza.

Antimicrobial peptides protect mucosal epithelial surfaces by creating a hostile antimicrobial barricade. The epithelia secrete them constitutively into the thin layer of fluid that lies above the apical surface of the epithelium but below the viscous mucous layer. To effectively access the epithelium, a microbe must first infiltrate the mucous barrier and then survive assault by the AMPs present in this fluid. Should microbes breach this constitutive cordon, their binding to the epithelium rapidly mobilizes the expression of high concentrations of specific inducible AMPs, which provide a backup antimicrobial shield.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/h1n1-flu-and-vitamin-d.shtml

http://tinyurl.com/mrssnk

...
Alcohol can INHIBIT the production of enzymes found in the liver and kidney that convert the inactive form of vitamin D to its active form. This interference in vitamin D metabolism results in an impairment of calcium absorption. Vitamin D deficiency can lead to osteomalacia, a bone condition associated with pain, fractures, and deformity. Alcohol also increases magnesium excretion, an effect that can further negatively impact bone health.

But while the toxic effects of alcohol abuse are well established, moderate alcohol consumption may actually have a modest favorable effect on bone density in post-menopausal women. This effect may be explained by the fact that after menopause, alcohol enhances the conversion of testosterone into estradiol. Moderate alcohol intake may also be beneficial because of its ability to increase calcitonin, a thyroid hormone that inhibits bone resorption. (Note: More than two drinks a day, or 14 grams a day, is considered to be excessive intake and a risk factor for osteoporosis.) On the other hand, there is no evidence to suggest that moderate alcohol intake is beneficial to bone density in pre-menopausal women or in men.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/bones/osteoporosis/osteo.manage.alcohol.htm

http://tinyurl.com/l2ee8p

Cedric Garland Video Lecture: 36:43 “Dose-Response of Vitamin D and a Mechanism for Cancer Prevention”

-- “Very large intakes of cigarettes and alcohol completely overwhelm the beneficial effects of Vitamin D”

http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.asp?showID=15767

http://tinyurl.com/dls6pu

 

[AbbeyRoad]

113. Thanks for the info on vitamin D

I should probably be getting more than I am.

:scared:

[proteus_lives]

115. I'm glad the government has a plan for something like this.

Would you rather a disease run rampant in a dire situation?