Venezuela: Unruly protesters will be prosecuted

[Zorro]

Source: AP

Venezuela's top prosecutor said Friday she will ask that criminal charges be brought against unruly demonstrators, accusing opposition protesters of trying to "destabilize" President Hugo Chavez's government.

Anti-government groups are looking for "any reason to create chaos," Attorney General Luisa Ortega said.

In recent weeks, sporadic protests have erupted in Venezuela's capital over a controversial education law that critics warn could lead to political indoctrination in schools as a way to strengthen support for Chavez's leftist policies.

Ortega dismissed the protesters' complaints and warned that demonstrators who disturb "tranquility and the public peace" could be charged with "civil rebellion" — a crime punishable with up to 24 years in prison.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090829/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_protest_crackdowns_1

[WriteDown]

1. GEEZ!

""civil rebellion" — a crime punishable with up to 24 years in prison."

That'll give you time to think.

[Peace Patriot]

2. Why does this matter to the Associated Pukes, or to you?

Oh, oops, I forgot. If Chavez = dictator, then it's ok to slaughter a hundred thousand Venezuelans to steal their oil.

:puke:

[WriteDown]

3. So we're barred from discussing anything that doesn't

directly affect us? You need to alert the mods, LBN needs to be cleared of all but 5 or 6 articles.

[Wilms]

10. Who suggested we're barred from the discussion?

You did.

That was punk-ass.

[WriteDown]

11. Are you writing rap lyrics?

:shrug:

[chascarrillo]

28. What a little sycophant you are.

Yeah, I'd call anyone who jails someone for 24 years for protesting a dictator. Sorry that offends you so much.

[EFerrari]

30. What a good consumer of cr@p you are. Get back to us when it happens.

[chascarrillo]

35. So, it's okay for the AG to threaten it, as long as he doesn't do it?

Wow. That's really a fucking stupid argument.

[EFerrari]

39. I'm fine with Venezuela enforcing its laws, you silver tongued devil you.

lol

[clixtox]

73. "He" is a "she" named "Louisa". Did you read the article? N/T

Sycophant?

That's a stretch!

[naaman fletcher]

84. What does it matter to you?

You bothered to post on the thread, too. Also, why do you assume that everyone who doesn't worship Chavez wants to kill 100K venezuelans to steal their oil?

[drdtroit]

4. You mean like herding them into "freedom" zones, running police horses and

motor scooters into them, and then locking them up for days in a warehouse on a pier on the Hudson river?
Oh wait, that was here in NYC during the republican national convention!
Wake up!

[WriteDown]

5. 24 "years" and "days"...

seems like a poor comparison.

[drdtroit]

6. It's the concept. This the land of the free, remember? n/t

[WriteDown]

8. I can't ride a motorcycle w/o a helmet.....

Or choose not to wear my seatbelt. So I cannot comment on political protestors being imprisoned for 24 years? :shrug:

[imdjh]

16. You can ride without a helmet in Florida

I guess they figure that if you get hit by a Mercedes going 55 MPH (residential collector streets are 45MPH here) a helmet isn't going to make much difference, but his seatbelt will.

BTW, I ride in flip-flops with no helmet. My mom calls me a donor.

[WriteDown]

17. Haha....

Funny. :)

[oct2010]

7. Thats how the Iranians are doing it

Iran's Ahmadinejad calls for punishment of opposition leaders over post-election unrest
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6742788.html

Maybe "the resistance" and revolution ended with a whimper....since the UAE intercepted that North Korean arm shipment


;)
:tinfoilhat:

[Wilms]

9. Think of how uninformed we'd all be were it not for corporate media.

I read the headlines everyday. Yesiree!

'Cause I'm a progressive. That's right.

[UTUSN]

12. K&R to undo the UnReKKK pending the arrival of the rest of the Huguito Squads!1 n/t

[bitchkitty]

72. What's with the KKK? Are you implying that

those on the left are racist? Or just throwing any negative connotation you think might stick in the brains of your feeble-minded brethren?

[BoboS]

13. difficult problem...

As I understand the situation, most of the opposition consists of well financed, former elite. Same thing in Equador. With loads of funding,it is easy to create a counter campaign. Suppression of this movement is obviously legitimate, but does imply the danger of more and more power transfer to the president. He might be right, but how about his successor?

A similar situation might occur in the US, where tough punishments of human right abusers, and important changes in legislation are being postponed for, probably, political reasons...

Now think of the scenario where an extreme right wing politician would be elected in office. Any small setback, or fluke accident, might cause this to happen, in 2, 4 or 14 years...

Chavez might be cool, but the laws allowing him space could empower centuries of dictatorship. Similarly, if mr Obama does not deal with the travesties having occurred during the former administration, he could be setting up his country for a further descent into fascism. He might intend everything for the good, but cannot be sure about the future (that even includes himself!!!).

I hope that mr. Obama, with his constitutional background, will pick up this issue...

[imdjh]

14. But if women ran things, there would be peace....

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

55. As long as it is not the women I know!

Sorry to burst anyone's CW, but...

Right wing war mongers don't all have a Y chromosome.

[LaPera]

15. "Leftist" the fucking media-never a concern about "rightist" do you ever see that word - DU robots!

Right-wing fascist who have controlled Latin American countries for years keeping the people down, peasants & slaves where a tiny minority own 95% of the land and the people have no means for education those are the regimes the US has been supporting for years, American corporation capitalizing on these poor countries resources, agriculture, cheap labor even tourism for huge profits and pay no taxes but fees to the wealthy land owners....

Are these dictators ever call "rightist" are they ever scrutinized for every law they choose to create for control & profit...."Leftist' what a bunch of bullshit...obviously no government in the world is perfect and can never be....but for every one thing the media and the capitalist swine criticize Chavez for - I can name two or three things that Chavez and socialism have helped his own people as well as other Latin American countries, that never before were possible under American "Rightis" fascist dictators.

Why do you think Chavez is so despised by the republicans the corporations, the IMF, etc.......Chavez has helped other Latin American countries to get out of their control & debt not to mention Venezuela huge oil reserves....and the idiots play right into the republican "rightist" hand and support these fuckers with every corporate media and AP propaganda piece of shit item....

Yes, Chavez is a socialist so are many who want health care for all in this country and we see how the corporations AP and the media, the "rightist" come up with lie after lie and distortions & smear jobs about taking that avenue of incredible profit away from a few...one can just imagine why they want Chavez gone when he can influence a whole region, a continent that the rich and corporations have been soaking dry and controlling for hundreds of years while keeping the people poor dumb & slaves....and these clowns on DU who trash Chavez and the socialist movement are no different than the dumb uninformed uneducated teabaggers, the bithers, town hall disruptors who believe the bullshit they hear & read in their local AP newspapers stories...These are the exact same fuckers these people here at DU are believing about Chavez...

These are the same propaganda outlets that these lazy people get their opinion about Chavez from, usually they are progressive people about most things, but eat this international shit up about Chavez, never ever going more in depth or searching out the facts for themselves other than the usual AP or Fox news headline stories about Chavez, then they unbelievably pontificate the same bullshit as if they know everything including the constant subversive attacks, undermining and the usual CIA type of mole operations.

Create unrest in a socialist country, get the American people believing the bullshit stories like AP (CIA - INF) put out and then have the American people's support to use military to go in and topple the socialism for "America, patriotism" and for corporations wealth & control!

Who doesn't think these republican right-wing fucks don't want Chavez and his influence out of the region and will do anything to accomplish that by trying to change public opinion...No these idiots believe the same right-wing republicans & corporate powers that are oppressing them each day, here in this country instead.....fuck, they should just watch Fox news and be done with their indoctrinations and join the teabaggers because they already are half way there.

The one thing the corporate republicans, "Rightist are great at, that they are truly incredible at, is smear tactics - trashing their enemies character..... First, people begin to have doubts, than blindly start trashing the person in question themselves and finally are convinced that the one in question is exactly what the profiteers said they are and they keep the ball rolling for these corporate republican capitalist lying fucks....Objective: Discredit the nonconformist to their profit motive through character assassination....Hate-Lies-Greed The republican way!

[Peace Patriot]

40. Great rant, La Pera! My sentiments exactly! This is fucking propaganda!

"Why do you think Chavez is so despised by the republicans the corporations, the IMF, etc.......Chavez has helped other Latin American countries to get out of their control & debt not to mention Venezuela huge oil reserves....and the idiots play right into the republican "rightist" hand and support these fuckers with every corporate media and AP propaganda piece of shit item...."

---

"The one thing the corporate republicans, "Rightist are great at...is smear tactics - trashing their enemies character..... First, people begin to have doubts, than blindly start trashing the person in question themselves and finally are convinced that the one in question is exactly what the profiteers said they are and they keep the ball rolling for these corporate republican capitalist lying fucks....Objective: Discredit the nonconformist to their profit motive through character assassination....Hate-Lies-Greed The republican way!"

---

:applause: :bounce: :applause:

[LaPera]

41. Thanks!

[laughingliberal]

76. Without knowing more about the specific situation

I am venturing a guess that the protesters are the same crowd we see here that always opposes education for the masses. It benefits them to keep the public stupid. The unskilled and uneducated provide little resistance to the wealthy elite and they provide a cheap labor force. Just a guess, mind you...

[troubledamerican]

56. Amen

[clixtox]

75. I couldn't have written it better...

or nearly as well!

Since those you so correctly lambaste don't read the articles which the thread is about, I don't believe they are going to read your fabulous post.

They believe that they know everything they need to know.

Thanks for adding all of that passion to the discussion.

[NYC Democrat]

18. I am really disgusted at how many people on this site support this

I mean really are some peoples heads so far up Hugos ass that they can't see whats wrong about arresting protesters If this kinda thing happened in this country you know what would happen everyone here would he outraged I mean yes protesters do sometimes get arrested here but not for 24 years and people here justify Chavez doing this simply because they agree with him on some issues.

[EFerrari]

19. Venezuela has always treated protesters better than we do

and this article is the usual right wing media garbage.

I'm really disgusted by how many people get taken in by it, every time. :)

[IDFbunny]

47. Protesting isn't a felony here as it is in Cuba, Venusuela.

[EFerrari]

49. But that doesn't prevent American protesters from being picked up

pre-emptively and treated like felons, does it?

[IDFbunny]

52. There's a big difference

between feeling a baton and harsh language and 24 years in a literal shit-hole Latin American prison. Anybody that spend more than a couple a days in the clink for disturbing the peace (protesting) is a political prisoner. This law gives Hugo another mechanism to hold political prisoners.

[EFerrari]

54. There are no protesters serving 24 years in Venezuela.

There is nothing there that can even compare with the way we kidnap, abuse and torture prisoners. There are no Leonard Peltiers in Venezuela, either.

So, you're right. There is a big difference. Our human rights violations are much, much worse than anything happening in Ven.

[sabrina 1]

62. It isn't a felony here?

You must have missed the Bush years:

http://rwor.org/a/157/RNC_pt1-en.html

The Political Persecution of the RNC 8

For the first time, a state version of the fascistic USA Patriot Act is being applied to political demonstrations. The RNC 8 are charged with felony conspiracy to riot in furtherance of terrorism and felony conspiracy to commit criminal damage to property in furtherance of terrorism, along with two other felonies. They were sitting in jail for the duration of the Republican convention—but they are being held legally responsible for anything that any protestor did during that time.

The prosecution of the RNC 8 would set a very bad precedent that criminalizes political protest. But too few people even know about this case. Everyone who understands the importance of dissent and the ability to resist the crimes being committed by the government and ruling institutions needs to speak out. A big demand to drop the charges on the RNC 8 needs to be raised from a broad cross section of society. This railroad must be stopped cold in its tracks.

Maybe if the Corporate Media were as diligent about reporting on our own persecution of political demonstrators, this kind of thing wouldn't be happening here. But Venezuela has OIL!

And that's just one of the many cases that was basically ignored by the same media that can't wait to report on every time Chavez sneezes.

How is that helping us to hold onto our own frail democracy? At least they have healthcare in Venezuela.

[LaPera]

20. I'm so blown away by people who don't know jack shit, pontificate & believe every right-wing story

as truth and never see nor seek if there's any reason for or behind the actions taken....

What people will profit if Chavez is overthrown?
What ideology despises socialism? Who controls our corporate media?
What facts do you have other than what AP has told you?

Teabagger mentality!!

Are you also disgusted with the CIA going into countries to subvert sovereign countries governments?

Are you disgusted with the IMF & World Bank wanting to keep these countries in poverty and owning everything including their water?

Are you disgusted with wealthy right-wing dictators who control all the their country's resources & land for profit and who have been keeping their own people uneducated and poor, relatively slaves for centuries in those countries with US corporate & military backing?

Are you disgusted with the using of using countries as toxic dumps? The polluting & dumping of toxins & chemical waste, exploiting & raping of lands & waters by corporations for profit, keeping any environmental laws at a minimum because it cost corporations money & profit?

These are the same disgusting fuck who despise want to overthrow Chavez & socialism and control it all for themselves and use the media (AP & other corporate news sources) to sway & convince the gullible here in this country.

Doesn't that disgust you? No, just what you read about a socialist, Chavez, and where do you read this stuff what source do you have to give you such depth?

[WriteDown]

22. There is only one solution. One of the Huguito's must go to...

Venezuela and live there for 6 months. We need on the ground reporting and not hearsay. It would be beneficial if this person could also make daily posts about life in Hugo's Venezuela.

2 other things that would be a partial substitute would be having an actual Venezuelan citizen post from Venezuela or perhaps a recent former Venezuelan citizen or a Venezuelan who is visiting the US.

[LaPera]

23. Get it down....dude...

A better way....

I'd like to hear from a Venezuelan that came from a privilege life before Chavez and the differences now, as well as a Venezuelan who came from poverty before Chavez and the differences now....Then weight the two with facts, not just the hearsay we get here ...It shouldn't be that difficult to find for ones self.

So get rockin!!

[WriteDown]

29. You volunteering?

:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

98. I'd settle for a scientific poll of Venezuelans' attitudes

But of course, no such thing is possible, as the sligtest hint of dissatisfaction would be explained away by
any number of ready-made rejoinders.

Face it, Venezuela is paradise. The one reason the rabid pro-Chavez set lives in the US is to convert we heathen
to the bright, shining path of the Chavez Way.

[Wilms]

24. Yeah. Like if we had a "Saddamist" in Baghdad in 2002, we all could have realized Bush is a liar.

But since we didn't, we all had no choice but to swallow the corporate media's message whole and kill hundreds of thousands (more) people.

We had no choice, because we have no brain.

[Psephos]

45. Actually, we had the blogger "Iraq the Model," and his site was a good MSM antidote. n/t

[Wilms]

53. I don't doubt it. But my point is that a little critical thinking could take you places.

During the build-up to Iraq, my only sources of info were the corporate media, and the corporate foundation financed media. Somehow I managed to read between the lines...unlike many self-described progressives with there holier than Bush whining about Saddam "gassing his own people". Meanwhile, that might well have been the Iranians with help from the US.

Never mind.

[Psephos]

64. I hear you. n/t

[Seldona]

26. So we can spend 24 years in a Venezualian prison?

Brilliant point.

lol

[Peace Patriot]

60. There is lots of info on Chavez gov't impact on ordinary Venezuelans on the internet.

I've read or watched on the spot accounts of elections--for instance, of the town criers who blow horns or bang pots early in the morning on election day in poor areas so people will get in line early to vote, and reports of the details of vote counting (so important to evaluating the transparency of the system--which is excellent in Venezuela), a story of a poverty-stricken mother being able to go back to school, and her family and other people favorably impacted by the Chavez government's funding of education, stories of worker co-ops (both sucessess and failures), of community council meetings (an innovative Chavez government program for dispersing power of local projects to the local area)s, accounts of the military (which is more like our National Guard) and their help in building schools or flood control projects, the story of a small food retail store and the impact of subsidized gov't food on the viability of the business (not good), many stories of the Venezuelan Children's Orchestra (a remarkable program, now subsidized by the gov't, for training thousands of poor children in classical music), many stories of various protest demonstrations (both sides), an entire documentary production on the 2002 coup ("The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"--available free on the internet), accounts of indigenous tribes and their effort to gain title to their land (the Chavez gov't favors giving them title, but not mineral rights), various environmental stories, a detailed report on land reform under the Chavez government (its innovations, its usefulness to farmers, its goals), detailed economic reports, and more. I feel that I know more about Venezuela, from a peoples' perspective, than any other foreign country except England (which I have extensive knowledge of because of my literature studies). I can't afford to travel to Venezuela, but I have friends who have, and I helped send delegates to the World Social Forum in Caracas, and have listened to their reports.

It's rare that we ever get the perspective of ordinary Venezuelans--workers, the poor, the indigenous--directly in this country, because the poor can't travel and I'm sure our gov't doesn't want such spokespeople here and bars them from entry, and, of course, our corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies are only interested in creating their phantasm Venezuela and their bogeyman "Chavez the dictator." We are exposed, in the media, to Venezuelans who can afford to travel and have second homes in Miami. Their perspective is skewed because the rich always hate governments that make them pay their taxes, that refuse them untoward influence in the government and that serve the interests of all of the people including the poor majority. The rich Venezuelan elite represents Venezuela about as well as George Bush represents the U.S. But the internet is a gold mine of information about ordinary people and ordinary life in Venezuela with Chavez as president, for those who are interested and can't travel to Venezuela. It just takes a little effort.

I've seen anti-Chavez posters use this tactic before at DU--suggesting that those who favor the Chavez government, and who descry the bullshit--psyops, disinformation--coverage of Venezuela in our benighted press, should "go to Venezuela." It is a form of insult to those of us who have bothered to do the research that I've described above, to understand Venezuelans and Venezuelan issues as well as we can from a distance. My research also includes the history of Venezuela, extensive study of neighboring countries, and closely following both mainstream and alternative news on current Venezuelan and regional developments. Floating the vague notion that "someone" should "go to Venezuela" and report back here--without any plan on your part to arrange or fund such a mission--is an effort to detract from the opinions of those of us who know what we are talking about, because we have investigated the issues in detail and have looked for--sought out--and read/viewed accounts of real people and the impacts of various Chavez government policies on their lives.

If you want to send someone to Venezuela to dis the Bolivarian Revolution, I'm sure the CIA would be interested in the project. Why don't you propose it to them? Meanwhile, freedom of expression in Venezuela has never been more widespread in its entire history, than under the Chavez government, which has actively encouraged maximum citizen participation in politics and government inclusive of all of the groups who were traditionally excluded from any say in government and any control over government policy or their own fates as Venezuelans--including the vast poor majority, workers, small business people, street vendors (half the labor segment of the country), women, racial minorities, the indigenous, and gays and lesbians. Never has the government been more open! Never!

And never has government met with more approval--a consistent approval rating in the 60% range--and never have so many Venezuelans expressed satisfaction with their government, their democracy and the direction of their country. Their ratings of these things are among the highest in the western hemisphere.

It is simply laughable--and a goddamn LIE--that the Chavez government is repressing anybody.

[WriteDown]

100. I'm confused....

Are you volunteering?

[NYC Democrat]

44. yes those's things do disgust me but that doesn't mean I have to support everything Chavez does.

and guess what Chavez is not Really a socialist he more of a left leaning populist who calls himself a socialist same with most the "Socialist" here as well as most Socialist leaders in Latin America.

[Posteritatis]

25. Some DUers would support anything up to and including death camps if Chavez wanted 'em. (nt)

[LaPera]

27. That's the republicans, fascist right-wing modus operandi & death squad's or aren't you aware

of history? Americans republicans right-wing used death squads in countries all over Latin America for years what do you think Reagan & Bush's used the right-wing "School of the Americas" training for death squads the same people you trust telling you through AP about socialist left-wing Chavez....And you believe every single word they spew up for your consumption aren't you the progressive open minded corporate news believing little rascal!!

[Posteritatis]

31. The excluded middle fallacy is so cute. (nt)

[LaPera]

32. Not as cute as your hatred of socialism.

You've been programed well by & for the capitalist, you little government health care for all, socialism hating little rascal!

[Posteritatis]

33. The excluded middle fallacy is *still* cute. (nt)

[LaPera]

34. Never as cute as your mindless rambling of middle fallacy. You have no validity. You offer nothing!

[Psephos]

46. Tertium non datur: "there is no third (possibility)"

Your sparring partner has a point.

No person, no leader, and no country is all good, all bad, all left, all right. We should not praise or condemn based on what political beliefs are shared, but based on what actions we observe.

It's completely possible to condemn some of things happening in VZ and still maintain overall support for the effort. A regime that is spared criticism loses its most important asset and sooner or later will slide toward corruption.

[ronnie624]

67. When has the Chavez government ever been spared criticism?

It hardly seems fair to expect supporters to attack Chavez along with his enemies.

[Psephos]

78. Criticism is not an attack. An attack is an attack.

Not understanding the difference will cause one to judge all comments that point out errors or differences of opinion as attacks.

There are, of course, those who slash and attack with no thought of criticism. But there are plenty more who reserve the right to call out problems when they see them, within a framework of support. I would guess that a majority, or nearly so, of people on this very site feel exactly that way about the U.S.

My girlfriend does some dumb things now and then (not half as many as me, though). Sometimes I even point them out. But I love her just the same, and fiercely.

There are some here who defend everything the government does in VZ; they don't realize they're the mirror reflections of those who do nothing except attack everything the government does in VZ. Both groups are ideologues, and plainly exhibit the blind spots that go with that mindset.

[ronnie624]

83. attack:

1. To set upon with violent force.
2. To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner.
3. To start work on with purpose and vigor: attack a problem.
4. To begin to affect harmfully: a disease that attacks the central nervous system.

<http://www.answers.com/topic/attack>

1. to use force against in order to harm; start a fight with; strike out at with physical or military force; assault
2. to speak or write against, esp. with vigor; criticize, denounce, censure, etc.
3. to begin working on energetically; undertake (a problem, task, etc.) vigorously
4. to begin acting upon harmfully or destructively the disease attacked him suddenly

<http://www.yourdictionary.com/attack>

1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.
2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.
4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.
5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.
6. to set about (a task) or go to work on (a thing) vigorously: to attack housecleaning; to attack the hamburger hungrily.
7. (of disease, destructive agencies, etc.) to begin to affect.

<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/attack>

Perhaps you should use a dictionary more often.

[Psephos]

87. I said nothing about "severe," "strong," or "vigorous" criticism - that's your addition.

Look up the words "denotation" and "connotation" as long as you have that dictionary out.

If you have nothing but bile to offer, then please find another outlet. I don't mind if we don't share a single opinion, and think it's actually most fruitful to discuss issues with people who hold different views. But it's a waste of time to attempt discussion with someone whose goal is to demean or insult.

[ronnie624]

107. Sorry about that.

It was not my intention to 'attack' you with disagreement and a link to a dictionary.

[Psephos]

108. No offense taken

I look forward to future discussion with you. It's certainly more stimulating than a threadful of amens. ;)

[troubledamerican]

59. The mass graves in U.S. ally Colombia are so cute.

[IDFbunny]

50. Im sure you'd find support for the 're-education' of

the rich, republicans, rednecks, jesus freaks, cowboys, shock jocks, corporatists (whatever that is). Fortunately I think there is a more reasonable silent majority here.

[Posteritatis]

51. Oh, for sure

That's why I said "some" and not "most" or "many." :)

[Violet_Crumble]

80. I'm positive you can't find any evidence of that at DU...

That's why I won't hold my breath waiting for you to come up with anything to back up what you say...

[troubledamerican]

58. Are you one of the DUers who supports Colombia's Death Squads & mass graves?

There are plenty of DUers who support Alvaro Uribe.

Chavez doesn't have mass graves or Death Squads.

Hypocrisy rules at DU.

[Posteritatis]

61. And *still* the excluded middle fallacy is cute! (nt)

[Wilms]

65. You're cute...

...perhaps.

Certainly smug.

So go back to your debate Cliff notes and see if you can realize that not everything excluded is relevant. And that's assuming it even exists.

[Posteritatis]

79. I'll do that when you accept that there's more than two opinions here

Anyone here who thinks the only options are uncritical acceptance of anything Chavez does or suck-up-the-MSM's-word-for-it blind faith is an absolute idiot and I'll keep sneering at them for a broken, simplistic, toddler's-eye view of the world.

Those guys in this thread inserting thoughts in my head, claiming that because I correctly say there are people here convinced it's impossible for Venezuela to do anything right I must be drinking every last drop of Kool-Aid the media's spinning against him? They're fools, deliberately ignorant, all too comfortable in their nice, predetermined Manichean worlds and generally not really deserving of much respect over their opinions.

If you don't recognize that there are positions in between those two extremes, I'm talking about you as well as them.

Of course, if you want you can resort to the programming others have shown and extrapolate the entirety of my political views from that, but you'll still be just as wrong as the other two people hurling jargon and emotive talking points at me are. Or you can do that tired old "this person is wrong because they're pointing out huge gaping holes in others' basic logic" schtick that people around here like to do when they're called on that sort of thing. I won't care much then either.

Smug? In this case? I'm right to be.

[EFerrari]

93. Charity begins at home.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4037824&mesg_id=4037974

[troubledamerican]

57. I am really disgusted at how many people on this site ignore Alvaro Uribe, our Death Squad ally

I mean really, why are some people's asses frying with fire over Hugo Chavez -- when in Colombia, the U.S. ally, there are MASS GRAVES and DEATH SQUADS. Where are Chavez's mass graves? He doesn't have any.

Then some DUers WONDER why progressives welcome Chavez as a COUNTERPOINT to murderous RIGHT-WING FASCISTS who get PRAISED in the U.S. media & are even WELCOMED ON DU.

[Odin2005]

105. Those posters are not Liberals, they are authoritarians.

They want a dictator as long as he's OUR dictator. It's sickening.

[Joanne98]

21. The AP never stops attacking Chavez.

[chascarrillo]

36. Here a wire article by the Agence France-Presse for you

Venezuela accuses protesters of attempting 'rebellion'

(AFP) – 1 hour ago

CARACAS — Venezuela's top prosecutor said Saturday that recent street protests were legally tantamount to "rebellion" against President Hugo Chavez's government and that demonstrators will now be charged.

The dramatic move by Attorney General Luisa Ortega capped a week of huge street protests, mostly directed against a new education law that critics say is politically charged.

"People who disturb order and the peace to create instability of institutions, to destabilize the government, or attack the democratic system, we are going to charge and try them," Ortega said in a statement, referring to the government of leftist-populist Chavez.

<...>

"These precise actions are in effect criminal civil rebellion," Ortega stressed, warning in her statement that the crime carries sentences of between 12 and 24 years.

"I want those people who have risen up against the government with a hostile attitude against a legally formed government to know what the consequences are," Ortega warned.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gnC37xJYy1aXpt6PG6ZPGXWPZjcw

[Judi Lynn]

38. So that makes it truthful? Is that right? Agence France-Presse was caught only a week or so ago

publishing a real stinker of a lie.

It was covered in someone's post here and discussed at that time by posters who tend to keep up.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Here's a marvellous bit of AFP journalism for you:

AFP in Honduras Hung By Its Own Photograph
Posted by Al Giordano - August 3, 2009 at 8:31 pm
By Al Giordano

http://narcosphere.narconews.com.nyud.net:8090/userfiles/borderexercises.jpeg

August 3, 2009, CATACAMAS, HONDURAS: Here in the jungle border outpost that is home to Honduras’ legitimate First Family, freelance journalist Belén Fernández, also reporting from this region, brought additional information to our attention about the follies of the professional simulators at the French Press Agency (AFP) which had made the false claims last weekend of supposed but non-existent “threats of violence” from the legitimate but exiled President Manuel Zelaya.

It turns out that AFP’s make-believe “journalist,” Francisco Jara knew full well that his statements about military-style “training exercises” by what he called “Zelaya’s ‘popular army’” were false and he chose to lie about it anyway. The proof of his deceit comes from AFP’s own photographs, like the one above. The exercises – see for yourself – were more akin to a Sunday Easter egg hunt or picnic than the conspiratorial scenario conjured by Jara in his felony against journalism.

In that photo of ordinary people of all ages without uniforms or weapons of any kind is the scene that AFP portrayed with frightening militaristic imagery. Oooh, scary!

An AFP story that appeared in the pro-coup daily El Heraldo on Saturday also made some evidently bizarre and self-conflicting claims about anti-coup Hondurans gathered on the Nicaraguan side of the border last week: That they had supposedly “threatened AFP journalists and tried to confiscate their photographic equipment.” How do we know that is false? Because if the hundreds of Hondurans there had wanted to take the AFP cameras away, there’s not much that the AFP staffers could have done to stop it. Yet the photos demonstrate that they were able to do take photos and later publish them.

In other words, the AFP reporter, it is now plain for all to see, is singularly dedicated not to reporting news truthfully, but to distorting and smearing one side of the conflict in ways that only make AFP correspondent Francisco Jara look as ridiculous as he is.

More:
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/afp-honduras-hung-its-own-photograph

[sabrina 1]

97. That's the identical article posted in the OP

No investigative journalism, they all just publish what is handed to them. I've found the same article published by other 'news' outlets also. It means nothing because for one thing, it does not inform people about the actual cause of these protests.

Do you know anything about the Education Laws that this is all about eg? Have you read them? Or do even people here on a site where you would expect more questioning of the an article like that, a memo actually handed around to all news agencies, just accept what they read in the media?

You might find it interesting to actually read those laws ~ so might most Americans before they jump on the anti-Chavez bandwagon.

[Judi Lynn]

37. DU'ers who have been following Latin American events for years are well aware of "guarimba,"

the Venezuelan opposition's own violent form of protest, championed by Cuban-Venezuelan activist, now Miami resident, Roberto Alonso. He fled from Venezuela after he was discovered to be housing over 100 Colombian paramilitaries on his ranch near Caracas, in anticipation of storming a national guard armory, and a police station, obtaining enough weaponry to outfit 1400 men, then storming the Presidential Palace, Miraflores to overthrow the Presidency and kill the President.

We've been well aware of these violent protests for years, and anyone stupid enough to try to claim this is something which is their right is actually too stupid to breathe.

Photos of your precious "protesters" you believe have been unduly threatened:

Here are more action photos from the street, with the Venezuelan opposition demonstrating their credentials to take charge of the emergent democratic government.

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20040303_4.htm
More photos:
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20040301_1.htm
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20040302_1.htm
~~~~~~~~
~snip~
The CIA's intelligence failures in Venezuela were apparently repeated during the oil industry strike later in 2002 and the guarimba destabilization attempt, an old-school CIA tactic applied in Chile and Nicaragua. Both of these harsh actions injured the Venezuelan economy and affected the government's international image, but failed in their goal to oust President Chavez.

http://www.williambowles.info/venezuela/ven_cia.html

~~~~~~~~
Venezuela: US-Backed Opposition Guarimba Plan Fails

Washington's latest scheme to disrupt Venezuelan life and commerce fails!
U.S.-backed opposition Guarimba plan a failure in Venezuela

By Cort Greene

The opposition-announced /Guarimba/ plan for April 26th to close streets and avenues with vehicles and burning tires, to have violent confrontations with the public and create havoc, failed to materialize. This was the same strategy that was employed this past March to disrupt the economy and life of the country, and similar to psychological warfare tactics used by the CIA before the U.S.-backed coup against the government of President Salvador Allende of Chile in 1973. An extensive internet and flyering campaign this past weekend failed to rouse a fractured and demoralized but still dangerous opposition, in part due to last week's revelations that segments of the Coordinadora Democratica are still planning more attempts at a coup and economic sabotage.

Venezuelans are becoming increasingly tired of the shenanigans of these terrorists and the continued policy of trying to destabilize the government because it affects the poor – the vast majority of Venezuelans – the hardest. Many supporters of the opposition have expressed disappointment in these leaders and have stated that they will not even come forward to confirm their signatures at the appeals process that would have triggered a recall referendum against President Hugo Chavez. Further bad news for the opposition came when it was reported this weekend that the independent research firm, Alfredo Keller and Associates, released polling data that says President Chavez would survive in an recall election. Observers believe the reason for this is the internal divisions inside the opposition and a growing economy after a period of sabotage-induced decline.

More:
http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/6914/index.php

~~~~~~~~
~snip~
A number of opposition leaders now espouse the so-called “Guarimba plan”—systematic acts of violent and disruptive civil disobedience designed to protest President Chávez, create fear in civil society and make the country ungovernable. The plan’s chief architect, a Cuban exile named Robert Alonso, is currently sought by Venezuelan authorities for housing moredozens of right-wing Colombian terrorists on his farm outside Caracas.

More:
http://www.epica.org/Action/venezuela2.htm

http://www.soberania.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/guarimba_1111.jpg http://www.radiomundial.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/yvke/files/img_noticia/t_guarimba_194.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Qzxi0Y2oYgA/SK52kHWaXfI/AAAAAAAAGF4/EQ-9Wgedyh8/s400/Guarimba+Altamira+5.jpg
The guarimba slingshots are loaded with marbles. These scumballs killed a Chavez supporter in 2002 with a marble shot directly into his brain. He was an older man. Freeps would have wept for joy.

[struggle4progress]

43. I think most countries will prosecute violent protesters. Whether one decides

to sympathize with the government, or with the protesters, depends (I suppose) on the actual circumstances

The Yahoo/AP article isn't very informative in this regard: it tells us that Venezuela will prosecute protesters who engage in disorderly conduct (a big ho hum!), reports vague allegations that a controversial education law ... could lead to political indoctrination in schools, and concludes

... 11 employees at Ledezma's office ... were detained Wednesday .... Prosecutors charged the protesters on Friday with crimes including ... interfering with police communications systems. Four were charged with severely injuring a police officer ...

I know nothing about the facts in this case. But, of course, these would be identifiable as ordinary criminal charges in almost any jurisdiction in the world

[rpannier]

48. Your point is well taken..

However, I think it is also of equal importance to note how the government defines 'violent.'
Here in Korea, the government has declared anyone that participated in the candle light vigils to have 'engaged in violence.'
The people who were being thrown out of their houses in the Yongsan region of Seoul had barricaded themselves up on the roof of their apt building. The police used private security guards, stormed the rooftop and several people were killed -- the Government labeled all the people on the roof top as violent demonstrators.
The government considers any demonstration where the police feel they need to use force as a violent demonstration.

I'm not saying the Venezuelan government is using this definition.
But it is helpful to know how any government defines 'violent'

[bemildred]

63. Inciting to riot will get you in trouble anywhere you go outside of "failed states". nt

[David__77]

66. When they are conducting terrorism, lock them away! Great!

These fascists are attacking innocent people, destroying people's property, and inciting terrorism. There's been far too much tolerance of these scum - good to see that Venezuela might FINALLY start applying some justice!

[Lagomorph]

68. Has Chavez joined the Bush Team?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/11/212726/954

[EFerrari]

69. Was rioting legal before BushCo?

[Lagomorph]

70. I dunno, but there was a helluva lot of it.

A lot of people got arrested and released, but not so many went to prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_riots

[EFerrari]

71. The truth is, when Bush was having peaceful protesters arrested,

the Ven government was dealing with theirs much more civilly. When students protested ahead of the 2007 referendum, their leaders were invited to speak to the assembly.

No peaceful protester in Venezuela is going to do 24 years in prison. That's just spew.

[Lagomorph]

74. I like facts...

Do you have some links to these truths?

[EFerrari]

77. The date they appeared in the assembly was June 6, 2007.

Here's a link to a Cato piece -- they get funding from Cato, and a link to a CounterPunch Piece.

http://www.cato.org/special/friedman/goicoechea/index.html

http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/who_s_pulling_the_strings_-_behind_venezuela_s_student_rebellion_.htm

[Lagomorph]

81. The right wing are always...

...corporate lackeys and the progressives are always Communist lackeys. They're always at each others throats, which isn't the goal, but for some reason, the "State" seems to prefer it that way, more often than not.

Some of the most progressive societies on the planet have riots where everybody goes home with bumps, bruises, bloody gashes, tear gas in their eyes and a court date where they get fined or community service, but they go home...

[EFerrari]

88. See Judi Lynn's #37. The US + right wing in Venzuela

have long had a strategy of trying to provoke the government with increasingly more and more violent protests. Usually the bruised up people have been *cops* because the government has tried hard not to fall for the gambit.

It looks like they're trying to find a better balance, and that's being sold in our media as "repression". What else is new.

[Lagomorph]

99. There's always the people who...

...are just in it for the fighting, destruction and/or looting. I watched that at WTO Seattle. They wanted it big, they wanted it ugly. Their only message was "We will not allow you to govern us, no matter what".

Utopia will always be a dream, but just a dream. Myself, I'd probably be bored to death with it. Change = upheaval = violence.

If I had been in NOLA during Katrina, I know I would have been out looking for supplies and taking what I could get. Whatever you don't need is still valuable trading stock. It's just survival instinct. What is that quote? "No government is more that three meals away from a revolution."

When the older folks started going to town halls and got pissed when they didn't get answers to their questions, I was feeling "Good, about time you got out of your Laz-E-Boys. How does it feel to be uncertain about you future?"

Once it got press, people started organizing and busing and it became political theater.

[EFerrari]

101. Agreed. There are people who don't fall into a side

but have their own agenda and get scooped into a position by the politicians or the press. Very true.

[robcon]

82. Taking a page from Che and Fidel's gameplan.

The one party state is growing in Venezuela.

[oct2010]

85. seems to be a bold step

in seeing the rich class and poor class do away with the middle class. People are very happy with Hugo's oil tap so its a moot point in the US. Nobody really cares about the banana republic other then the oil.

[EFerrari]

90. WE are more of a "banana republic" than Venezuela is.

LOL. Our elections, our public policy, our land use, even our wars are bought and paid for by corporate interests. Not so in Venezuela. Why do you think they hate the Chavez government so much? :)

[IndianaGreen]

86. Spare us your neocon propaganda! Venezuela has a multi-party system

with a strong opposition whose views are well represented in the corporate media sector.

You don't know shit about Fidel or about Che. You just don't know shit!

[EFerrari]

89. Right. That's why CATO is able to operate a "university" in Caracas

whose main function is to disrupt and destabilize the Ven government. Hugo Chavez is El Diablo!

[Judi Lynn]

91. Cato Institute treated us all to a trip to the Twilight Zone when they awarded

squishy soft Yon Giocoechea half a MILLION dollars for being their standard carrier, and major anti-democratic, anti-Chavez protest planner.

http://www.minuto59.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/yon-goicochea.jpg http://www.radiomundial.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/yvke/files/t_yongo_196_346.jpg http://otraexpresion.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/g162.jpg http://www.masjovenes.org.nyud.net:8090/GOICOECHEA.jpg

http://acalzonquitao.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2008/08/yon1.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/0aMQau10MAdZ9/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/0aybfAtco5aGj/610x.jpg
Yeah, this pudgy little putz is the voice crying in the wilderness, isn't he? Good grief, Gerty.

[EFerrari]

92. His momma must be proud!

lol

[Judi Lynn]

94. Ha! She LOOKS so proud! He's her life's achievement. Great image. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

95. He is a Latino version of Tucker Carlson!

The gods save us from this white preppy!

[Judi Lynn]

96. Save us all, and in a hurry. My god.

The oligarchs learned just the 24/7 pitched hate war from their media at the people's elected President wouldn't be enough, so they attempted their coup, which didn't work, their work lock-out in the oil industry, which did so much economic damage, but still didn't work, they continue to create food shortages regularly, which don't have a crippling effect yet, they have been importing Colombian paramilitaries to assassinate the President, and have been caught at it, gotten testimonies, have tried their referendum on Chavez, hoping to get him un-elected, which didn't work, reguarly resort to "guarimba," (violent protest) and as a late resort, started diving behind their little spoiled brat college kids, pretending there's a bonafide "youth movement" against Chavez. Hiding behind their little creepy pig-like offspring.

http://i11.photobucket.com.nyud.net:8090/albums/a153/jvlilyea/Estudiantes2B1406072B102.jpg http://www.stratfor.com.nyud.net:8090/files/mmf/0/a/0a113f0742cc6139bdd011ed3609830dd91cd124_two_column.jpg http://www.stratfor.com.nyud.net:8090/files/mmf/3/4/340e22eacf3e99f1c15c44ae7d16aa5987bdc5cb_two_column.jpg http://bellum.stanfordreview.org.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/guatemala.jpg http://bureaucrash.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/5.jpg http://www.robertamsterdam.com.nyud.net:8090/venezuela/assets_c/2009/02/marcha020409-thumb-500x367.jpg http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com.nyud.net:8090/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/071023/071023_venezuela_hmed_2p.hmedium.jpg http://img.dailymail.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/i/pix/2007/05_02/venezuelaPA_468x331.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com.nyud.net:8090/3329/3262838381_7a3ec27795.jpg
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu.nyud.net:8090/archives/caracas%20protest%20babe.JPG http://lmno4p.org.nyud.net:8090/images/3.24-31/caracas25_3.jpg

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/files/images/2009/01/opposition_march_Jan21.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com.nyud.net:8090/197/520906153_d52b16bab4_o.jpg
It doesn't take a rocket scientists to see these "protesters" are not living in deep fear the police are going to rip their faces off. They seem very cocksure. Smug. Bored, even.

[EFerrari]

103. Tucker WISHES he could lay hands on that $.

[ShortnFiery]

102. Yeah, we have not ever treated peaceful protestors poorly ...

in the God Almighty USA. :eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

104. You will remember, I'm sure, images we started seeing when they introduced the use of wooden dowels

on protesters. That was a breakthrough in dirty brutality, hatched during _{George W. Bush's} regime.

http://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net.nyud.net:8090/o25/pub/images/dowel.jpg

~snip~
In April, 2003, in Oakland, California, cops used wooden dowel projectiles and rubber bullets against peaceful antiwar activists (see photo). Oakland cops told the San Jose Mercury News that although the demonstration was peaceful, there were a “few agitators in the crowd,” a claim disputed by witnesses. “I was there from 5 a.m. on, and the only violence that I saw was from the police,” Joel Tena, the constituent liaison for Oakland’s vice mayor, told the newspaper. “What happened today was very surprising. It seemed the police were operating under the assumption that they were not going to let any kind of protest happen.”

If sincere “agitators” are not present, the cops are often obliged to produce them, as they did during an anti-globalist demonstration in Montebello, Quebec, last year. “Police officials tried to justify the extraordinary measures deployed at Montebello by claiming they were needed to control ‘extremist’ demonstrators and prevent them from ‘overwhelming’ conference security forces,” writes François Tremblay. “In fact, video images reveal a long-established police practice, that is, the use of agent provocateurs to provide a pretext for a brutal intervention by riot police against anti-government demonstrators and still further restrictions on the right to protest and other basic democratic rights.”

http://wearechangeseattle.org/2008/07/10/cops-to-use-%E2%80%9Ctop-secret%E2%80%9D-weapons-on-activists-during-conventions/

[Odin2005]

106. I see the resident authoritarian Hugo-bots are being predictable.

Accusing critics of authoritarianism with be right-wingers. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

109. I see the apologists for the elites are out in force

May your investment portfolios turn to crap!

[EFerrari]

110. This article, like all of these hit pieces, suggests the Ven government

is going to do some terrible thing -- that will never happen.

You don't have to be an authoritarian to notice the pattern. :)

[subcomhd]

111. can you imagine any other country in which

traitors like the 02 golpistas wouldn't be serving at least 24 years?

[subcomhd]

112. Hugo should release all the political prisoners now!

oh, never mind.