7 Killed, 20 Injured In Puerto Rico Shooting

[discocrisco01]

Source: AP

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - Gunmen opened fire on a crowd celebrating the reopening of a newly renovated neighborhood bar and grocery, killing at least seven and injuring 20, police said Sunday.

Dozens of people had crammed into the tiny La Tombola bar in Toa Baja, a municipality just west of San Juan, and were waiting for the band to resume playing when the assailants attacked, police Col. Jose Morales said. Among those seriously wounded were a 9-year-old girl and a pregnant woman who lost her 8-month-old fetus, he said.

The justice department plans to file a murder charge for the death of the fetus, said prosecutor Wanda Vazquez, who is investigating the case.

Vazquez said the scope of the killing makes investigators believe the attack may have involved a feud between drug traffickers.


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fgw-puerto-rico19-2009oct19,0,293152.story

[Hoopla Phil]

1. Yep, that gun control works real good doesn't it. Oh wait, those guns were banned.

How could this happen with illegal guns?

[villager]

3. Can't you cold-hearted gun strokers think of *anything* but your guns, before the blood is even dry?

n/t/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. Still working the empathy schtick? Don't address the issue, just go:

It's also far from your first time at the rodeo, innit?:


villager (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-07-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. so -- typical Gungeonites can't be bothered with a nanosecond's empathy for the dead child
...and his family, and instead it's all about saving our goddamn guns!


Euromutt (1000+ posts) Thu Oct-08-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
42. Whereas you showed *buckets* of empathy before savaging other posters
Edited on Thu Oct-08-09 01:04 AM by Euromutt
Oh wait, that's right: you didn't.

Spare me the self-righteousness. You don't give a crap about the dead kid; to you, he's just a stick to beat the pro-RKBA posters with. Next time, wait until rigor mortis sets in first.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=245472#245479

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=258868

[superconnected]

36. Can we agree that like the Bush at all costs people, you are blatantly

a gun at all costs person. Please get help.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. No we can't, because I'm not. Again, how would you prevent things like this?

You can carp at me all you like, but you still haven't proposed any answers for atrocities like this.

We see:

1. An island- so no one is smuggling guns over a land border.

2. That has a thriving drug trade- a line of work known for ultraviolence the world over.

3. The gun laws stop just short of the death penalty for illegal possession.

Given all that- what would *you* suggest?

[Hoopla Phil]

8. Reality sucks. Keep denying it. LOL

[villager]

12. Leave it to Hoopla Phil to put an "LOL" in a thread about a mass murder!

n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

24. LOL Leave it to villager to mis represent a response LMFAO how typical.

[villager]

35. And then Phil tops it with an LMAO!

Hell, Phil, why not just send the surviving family members a nice funny greeting card, while you're at?

[X_Digger]

44. "Meanwhile, thousands of children are dying. For pennies a day...."

Sally Struthers, you ain't.

[Hoopla Phil]

49. I think I'll save that money for a new box of defensive ammo for my carry gun.

The ammo needs to be rotated out every year or so. Fortunately it did not have to be used in self defense so now it will be used in practice.

What I find saddest of all is that these victims did not have the opportunity to "go armed" as it should be.

[villager]

52. Yes, I'm quite sure that's the single aspect of the whole thing you find saddest of all.

n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

53. Yep, it's a basic human right to self defense.

[villager]

54. you really couldn't give less of a shit about the victims, could you?

it's all about who gets to run around strapped...

[Hoopla Phil]

55. Odd how you keep trying to speak to what I do an do not care about.

Very odd indeed. I guess it's all about how nobly disarmed victims die to you isn't it. Hey, that's kinda easy isn't it?

[Hoopla Phil]

30. Yep, just keep on denying that reality. A bucket of sand for the head will help.

[Hoopla Phil]

56. Perhaps you could use a bigger bucket, and a little more sand.

[dionysus]

33. i don't know. i think the gun grabbers and the gun nuts are equally crazy.

:shrug:

[superconnected]

37. Your posts are so un-worthwhile to read that I think I'll put you on ignore now.

I reserve that for only the few people that I find really don't offer anything intelligent to say.

[Hoopla Phil]

48. And yet you take the time to respond. How odd. I'll count myself in good company then.

[friendly_iconoclast]

9. However he expressed it, he is correct. And now, a question for you:

What would you, villager, propose to prevent horrible crimes like these?

Seriously. Given that Puerto Rico is an island with a thriving drug trade and easy access to Central and South America,
what can be done?.

Double down on the law enforcement?

Bring back the death penalty?

End the War On (Some) Drugs?

[depakid]

20. Only correct in an Alice in Wonderland world

where more guns and less regulation somehow equal fewer shootings.

And mass shootings.

[Hoopla Phil]

25. So you would say this is a success story for gun control?

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. Still, the gun laws didn't prevent this. They might even be irrelevant here

as drug dealers are violent the world over.

[friendly_iconoclast]

46. Do the White Rabbit and the Mad Hatter live in Vermont then?

Or New Hampshire? Or the state of Washington?

See post #45

Looks like your Googleizing machine isn't working so well...

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoopla Phil]

26. I am a realist that understands the realities and fallacies of gun control.

I hope you don't take any persons rights away.

Have a nice day.

[BennyD]

27. "I hope you burn in hell." I can't believe you would say that to someone.

All because Hoopla Phil has a view that is different from yours? That's unfortunate.

[Hoopla Phil]

50. It's typical of "anti's" responses to pro 2A points of view. Oh, welcome to D.U!

[Submariner]

2. I'm in PR now for a work assignment for the month

Last week a guy was found with 51 bullet slugs in him, and his friend was shot 27 times. The drug "points", as they call them, in the public housing Barrios are carnage that would shock city's on the U.S. mainland. There is a 15.5% unemployment rate now, and when they lay off another 17,000 public service employees on Nov 1st, it will be an estimated 17.7% unemployment rate.

Two years ago I was driving to a wastewater plant in Carolina (east of San Juan), and saw a guys head stuck on a fence post so that all the commuter traffic would see it. The warning was to stay out of our drug (sales) point. The violence down here makes the mainland homicide rate look like a day at the beach.

My employer forbids travel into La Perla, next to the El Morro fort at entrance to San Juan harbor, and our female employees are forbidden to jog on the beaches after sunset.

[panader0]

4. Wow and I was contemplating retiring there.

What are the positives of PR?

[Lucky Luciano]

5. Surfing at rincon in march? Rincon is gorgeous and has less ghetto violence. Nt

[Submariner]

7. Lajas or LaParguera down in the Southwest

sector of the island would be a real good bet for retirement. Quaint village atmosphere.

And Rincon in March is a ripping spot if you like to surf. The big wave event (35-40 footers) in March a couple of years ago was awesome. Don't retire to metro-San Juan.....too crowded.

[imdjh]

11. It's yummy there when it's cold in Florida. I dream of PR for two weeks (our winter) every year.

[whathehell]

16. OMG

I've been to San Juan several times before on vacation and never had a problem.

My SO and I are going again around the middle of November..We'll be in a beach front hotel in Isla Verde..Do you think we have to worry?:scared:

[Submariner]

17. No need to worry..really

I've been staying at hotels in the Isla Verde sector for about 11 years on this business travel, and have not worried at all. The police have a big presence here to keep the predators away from the tourists. They even have a dedicated police force just for the tourist areas.

The killings are all drug related gang activities in the outlying areas between enemies they know. They massacre each other, not travelers who are basically oblivious to the drug problem, and don't get caught in crossfires.

[whathehell]

18. Thanks, Sumariner

Good to know!

[Bombero1956]

10. also don't retire there unless you like waiting for health care

My dad retired there and built a house in Vega Baja within 5 years he had sold the house and moved back here.

[GreenStormCloud]

13. The gun laws in PR are very strict.

Basically, all guns have to be registered.

All guns owners must have permits to own the guns.

Ownership is limited to two guns per licensee.

Ownership is aproximately $400 (fees, lawyer, stamps)

Membership in a target shooting club is required for all licensees.

All ammo sales recorded.

[proteus_lives]

15. Works like gangbusters doesn't it?

.....Oh wait. It seems that criminals don't obey the law! We must alert the press!

[depakid]

21. As a matter of fact it does

Because unlike America- which is chalk full of random mass shootings, family killings and children getting hold of firearms (not to mention other common gun related crimes)- gangsters in countries like this tend to only shoot each other over turf and other beefs.

Less guns- more difficult to acquire- less (and different sorts) of violence. So yep- it works, even in places like Puerto Rico.

[Irreverend IX]

22. It's the same in the US.

Most US gun murders are tied to the drug trade. That's what fuels the urban war zones in Detroit, LA, Baltimore, DC, etc. Family killings and gun accidents are a small fraction of the total, and mass shootings are scary but statistically insignificant.

[depakid]

23. No, it's not the same relative to other nations with responsible gun laws

Which is what's being asserted here.

[michreject]

34. Don't forget Chicago

and their **cough-cough** innocent kiddies.

[Hoopla Phil]

28. So this story would be and example of successful gun control??? No thanks.

[proteus_lives]

32. This is successful gun control?

No thanks. I'm glad support for increased gun laws is dropping.

Mass shootings, family killings, etc don't represent the majority of the gun-owners in America.

[superconnected]

38. So it would be better with no laws?

[proteus_lives]

47. No, I don't believe in that either.

I believe in sane gun control. But not where the citizens are stripped of their right bear arms by laws that criminals will ignore anyway. No thank you.

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. Since the FBI keeps stats on crime rates in PR, you can go dig them up for us

and demonstrate the accuracy of your claim.

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. BUSTED- Accoding to the FBI, the murder rate in PR is about 4X the US average

I was wondering why you didn't publish the stats (Via the Department of Justice):

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/cjis.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/index.html


The relevant numbers (as of 2008) can be found here:


http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_05.html

Average murder and non-negligent manslaughter rate by state as of 2008 (per 100,000 inhabitants)

National rate was 5.4

AK 4.1 (note: tied w/ Vermont for laxest gun laws)

AL 7.6

AR 5.7

CA 5.8

DC 31.4

FL 6.4

MD 8.8

NH 1.0 (note: has very lax gun laws)

PR 20.4

VT 2.7 (laxest gun laws of all, along w/ Alaska)

[Hoopla Phil]

51. Aaa, the successes of gun control.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. I can't believe he didn't answer you. LOL.

[cabluedem]

19. If only we could get gun control like that in our 50 states. nt

[Hoopla Phil]

29. Here here! Disarmed victims everywhere.

[proteus_lives]

31. That seems to be what the antis want.

For some reason I've never been able to put my finger on.

[superconnected]

39. I don't think citing isolated incidents that fit your cause works, because there are far

more that support the other side. The very least you should do is show the statistics of gun violence death in that country to one that has full gun control and no gun control.

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. Yeah, then we wouldn't have shootings like this....oh, wait....

n/t