Craigslist Wins Fight Over Sex Ads

[sabra]

Source: CNBC

A federal judge tossed out a lawsuit this week that was seeking to have Craigslist pull its “adult services” ads.

Chicago Sheriff Thomas Dart, who filed the suit earlier this year, wanted the site to shut down its erotic services section and reimburse taxpayer money used to investigate and arrest those who were trafficking women on the classifieds Web site.

“Craigslist is the single largest source of prostitution in the nation,” Dart had said at a press conference about the lawsuit back in March.

Judge John F. Grady ruled that the company is not “culpable for aiding and abetting” those that use Craigslist for illegal activity.

"Sheriff Dart may continue to use Craigslist's Web site to identify and pursue individuals who post allegedly unlawful content,” Grady wrote in the ruling, “but he cannot sue Craigslist for their conduct."

Read more: http://www.cnbc.com/id/33432160

[rcrush]

1. Or we could just legalize it and regulate it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

3. that is a horrendous idea

Why not address and eliminate the coercive forces that bring people to participate in the sex trade?

Unfortunately this is an issue where the debate is defined by garbage people watch on showtime and HBO or vague recollections about sex muses from their classical history courses in university. Which represents such a narrow edge of the sex trade as to represent nothing at all.

I have had a closer look at the sex trade, both prostitution and pornography than I would wish on anybody and it is horrifying.

[closeupready]

10. Did you see the UK report yesterday on alleged sex trafficking in the UK?

Their findings were that the problem of coercion has been overstated. I'd be curious as to your thoughts.

>>Inquiry fails to find single trafficker who forced anybody into prostitution

The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media.

Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all.

While some prosecutions have been made, the Guardian investigation suggests the number of people who have been brought into the UK and forced against their will into prostitution is much smaller than claimed; and that the problem of trafficking is one of a cluster of factors which expose sex workers to coercion and exploitation.<<

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. I have worked FIRST HAND with women who were traffiked into the US

They were real-life nurses who were promised big bucks caring for wealthy Americans, once in America the gang destroyed their passports and visas were told if they didn't work as prostitutes they would turn them over to the police and they would be incarcerated for a minimum of 20 years as illegal immigrants.

They were shuffled around houses in random suburbs of Southern California, never having a clue where they were. They were discovered when one of them was taken for an abortion and she begged the doctor for help. I got involved by assisting in replacing their ID's and passports that had been destroyed.

[girl gone mad]

20. I had a similar encounter.

A friend was counseling a group of Asian women who were being trafficked here in Dallas. It was a really sad and horrendous story. I think that having first hand experience changes your perspective. I used to live in a poor neighborhood full of prostitutes and I would spend a lot of time around them. They were frequently raped, abused and stolen from. I think it's the nature of the business and legalization will not end any of these horrors, because too many will choose to fly under the radar rather than having to deal with regulations and because the traffickers will just bring in women from poor countries and lie about their ages and working conditions.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

21. the largest flaw in the legalization argument is the gangs don't go away

They control the supply of trafficked women, willing or otherwise.

[Stumbler]

27. And to that I'd remind you about Prohibition (of alcohol)

During Prohibition, the gangs controlled the supply of the illegally-trafficked alcohol. And during that time the consumer had to turn to the gangs to buy the booze they wanted. Some got sick and/or died from the lack of quality standards. Some got hustled and mistreated by the gangs that were selling it. But most importantly, the revenue from the sale of black market alcohol funded the rise of the mafia, which led to increased crime in urban areas as well as corruption in our government.

And when the government repealed Prohibition and regulated alcohol, what did the gangs do? Continue trafficking in black market booze? No. Why? Because there was no market anymore. The consumers had the ability to go to the store down the street and purchase a product that was now legal, safe to consume, and maintained a quality-standard from one bottle to another. And the government saved money by not having to raid "speakeasies" nor by being saddled with the costs of housing those they arrested. Additionally, the legalization provided the government with a valuable revenue stream that was previously going to the coffers of the mafia and other thugs and gangs.

So if we legalize prostitution, what will the gangs do? Probably turn to drugs, as that's the next best source of illegal revenue our government refuses to decriminalize. But if the gangs have to compete with government-regulated businesses for market share, and the government's regulations provide the same improvements in safety and quality of the product being sold (sex), as they did for alcohol post-Prohibition, the gangs will have little reason to continue sex-trafficking. All-in-all, I appreciate your concern on this topic, but I think it's time to try a new approach. Even if you personally disagree with it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. The gangs contiune sex traffiking in Europe, the demand is enormous

It is the funniest thing, it turns out that very few normal, healthy western European women are terribly interested in being prostitutes. Nobody really knows why - I guess a sense of self worth, education and skills tend to diminish ones willingness to perform sex acts on strange men in filthy brothels or behind dumpsters .

It also turns out most countries don't issue work visas to foreign prostitutes, so the girls have to come from somewhere and organized crime is happy to find them. Many willing and many not. The only difference is now when the police raid a brothel they aren't looking for prostitutes, they are looking for illegal immigrants.

Unless you happen to be shopping in the same league as the illustrious former governor of New York, the probability of you actually being with a western European woman who is not either a junkie or a transvestite are pretty low in most places.

[girl gone mad]

52. Didn't happen in Amsterdam.

In fact, the government had to spend a lot of money buying up and closing the brothels because there was so much gang-related activity and human trafficking going on. It turns out that in addition to being a vector for disease and drugs, prostitution also attracts a whole lot of crime syndicates.

I think Germany did try a new approach that was fairly successful. They made it legal to be a prostitute, but illegal to pay for sex, so only the Johns could be arrested. That way the women got all of the safety and protection benefits that the pro-legalization camp claims, without the police having to deal with the regulatory and social ills associated with full legal prostitution.

[Dreamer Tatum]

73. Here's why Prohibition is a completely false comparison

First, all you need to get drunk is alcohol, which is extremely easy to produce and distribute on a massive scale. Once Prohibition ended, economies of scale were used against the gangs. If prostitution is legal, the cost structure is linear, and the more you can exploit a timid or scared woman, the more you can make from her. Given the number of women who would like to enter this country, it seems like there is a large supply of women to exploit.

Next, the enterprises that moved liquor did just that: they moved it. They didn't make it, they just assumed the risk of making it available. Once Prohibition ended, the margin on that business went away. With prostitution, the margin again needn't be eroded by legalization so long as the primary input is desperate, naive, or hopeless enough.

Also, the consumption of alcohol was socially acceptable until Prohibition started, so it was socially acceptable once it ended. Legal prostitution would still carry a social stigma for most people, and would therefore be transacted in much the same way it is now.

Many of these same reasons would explain why drug legalization would do nothing at all to drug smuggling in this country.

[ixion]

23. no, it makes sense

they don't call it the 'oldest profession' for nothing.

Humans engage in prostitution. Always have, always will. It's better to regulate it than to pretend it doesn't exist.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. i'm sure the Hells Angels, MS-13 and Triad have incredible complicance departments

Prostitution is virtually always an act of survival, that makes it a failing of society not human nature.

[ixion]

25. nope... as long as there is someone out there willing to pay for sex

there will always be someone out there willing to sell it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

32. there will also always be somebody willing to pay for murders

that doesn't mean we mainstream paid assassins.

[ixion]

36. uh, that's a straw man...there is no comparison

stay on topic.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

38. not at all, both are criminal enterprises that are destructive to all they touch

The sex trade destroys lives, but just because a market exists for sex doesn't make it okay.

[ixion]

44. sex is not a criminal enterprise. It is a natural desire

And the only reason the sex trade is destructive is because folks like you try to sweep it under the rug which drives it to the black market.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

46. Then why do problems persist in jurisdictions where it is legal?

do you actually believe any substantial number of people, in the absence of significant coercive forces actually wish to be prostitutes?
The black market in Europe is a result of no significant number of western european women wishing to be prostitutes.

[ixion]

59. chances are, there will always be problems... however that doesn't change the fact

that you're not going to convince people to stop having sex, just like you can't convince people to not use drugs.

The nanny-state is not the solution.

[Le Taz Hot]

91. Oh, please!

Not all prostitutes are engaging in their profession because they're being forced to do so by some gang or pimp. I, too, have worked with parolees who were prostitutes. VERY few had pimps and none of them were under the control of any gangs. I'm not saying gang-related prostitution doesn't happen but busting the prostitute is a little like betting on an illegal horse race and busting the horse.

In my experience, people prostitute themselves for MONEY. That's it. Either to feed their drug habits or to try and feed their families. Sometimes both. So, if they're prostituting themselves to feed their drug addiction, get them into rehab. If they're prostituting themselves to feed their family, they need aid and the prostitute needs education and training. Hell, I had college friends who weren't averse to taking in a trick or two every now and then in order to pay for books or pay the rent. In all cases, incarceration is an inappropriate and utterly useless response.

[dysfunctional press]

28. the main reason for the horror of it is that it's mostly illegal.

if it were legalized and properly regulated it would be much better for all concerned.

[girl gone mad]

53. Not true at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands#Reducing_the_size_of_the_red_light_district

In the last few years the city government of Amsterdam, under Mayor Job Cohen has started cracking down on prostitution in the capital, resulting in the closure of the Yab Yum, Casa Rosso and the Banana Bar as well as buying one third of all prostitution windows at the Wallen and turning them into studios for artists and fashion designers. Concerned about money laundering and human trafficking, Amsterdam officials under mayor Job Cohen denied the license renewals of about 30 brothels in the Amsterdam red light district De Wallen in 2006; the brothel owners appealed. To counter negative news reports, the district organized an open house day in 2007 and a statue to an unknown sex worker was unveiled.<6> In September 2007 it was announced that the city of Amsterdam was buying several buildings in the red light district in order to close about a third of the windows.<7>

At the end of 2007 one-third of the Amsterdam brothels were closed.<8>

At the end of 2008, mayor Job Cohen announced plans to close half of the city’s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity. The mayor is also closing some of the city’s 70 marijuana cafes and sex clubs.<9> This comes at the same time as the Government's decision to ban the sale of magic mushrooms and the closure of all coffee shops situated near schools.<1> Mayor Job Cohen: "It is not that we want to get rid of our red-light district. We want to reduce it. Things have become unbalanced and if we do not act we will never regain control."<1>

In 2009 the Dutch justice ministry announced plans to close 320 prostitution "windows" from Amsterdam.<10>

Both Amsterdam and Germany have faced serious crime problems directly related to the legalized sex trade.

[dysfunctional press]

57. what part of 'much better' do you have trouble understanding...?

i didn't say that it would be perfect or even completely safe- but it's still a whole lot better than keeping it illegal and underground, seeing as prostitution is NOT going to go away.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

60. how is a greater number of women participating in prostitution "much better"

while crime and violence persist?

[dysfunctional press]

61. where do you get the 'greater number' from...?

and crime and violence are always going to bea part of our society- as is prostitution.
legalizing it and regulating it would take most of the crime out of it and make it much safer for all involved.
what part of that is most difficult for you to understand?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

62. legalizing and regulating prostitution didn't fix a thing in Holland

The legalization of prostitution in Holland increased the number of men who used prostitutes, it did NOT however increase the number of Dutch women who wished to be prostitutes. To fill the void women, willing and unwilling are trafficked for that purpose.

It is a libertarian fantasy that just making everything legal will eliminate or even reduce all the negative consequences of those actions.

[dysfunctional press]

64. i didn't say that it would completely eliminate the problems-

only that it would make it much safer for all involved, which is a FACT.

sorry.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. That might be lost on the traffiked women who enjoy no protection of the law

how is it safer for them?

[dysfunctional press]

66. when it's legal and regulated- they're more likely to be discovered...

as evidenced in holland.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

67. ... and deported immediately

Giving them no opportunity to either press charges or give evidence.

Has US labor law EVER protected migrant workers from being exploited and abused?

The only thing that has changed is prostitution has become an immigration issue rather than a criminal one. Nobody is better off - except the men who use prostitutes while the prostitutes themselves continue to be exploited and brutalized.

[dysfunctional press]

68. you are mistaken.

when it's legal and regulated MANY more people are better off.
just ask the prostitutes.

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

69. Jane Doe of shallow grave was not available for comment,

[dysfunctional press]

70. that's too bad...

if only her trade had been legalized and regulated by now...she would have stood a much better chance.

oh, well.

apparently we'll have to wait for the troglodytes to die off before we can even think about making real social progress.

btw- how's your health?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

76. Enabling and endorsing the exploitation of women isn't social progress

And guess what, prostitutes get murdered in Holland too - a 19 year old prostitute from Hungry was murdered just earlier this year, by a security guard in one of your utopian dutch brothels.

[dysfunctional press]

81. neither is sweeping it under the rug and pretending it doesn't exist.

but to the prudes and morans- if they can't see it, it doesn't exist, and they seem to think that by making something illegal- people will stop doing it.

but- i never said that holland was a utopia(btw- prostitution is legal in more countries in the world than it's illegal- it's not just holland), and i never said that legalization would stop murders or abuse completely- only that under legalization, everybody involved would be much safer.

like they say- there are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

83. I want it under the brightest spotlight possible

So those who hold naive illusions about the sex trade might see it for what it is and what it does to those trapped in it.

I have had a closer look at the sex trade, both prostitution and pornography than I would wish on anybody. It is a disgusting and horrifying world, those who hold up a fantasy in which sexually empowered women are through their free will are selling a service are just fucking ignorant. The world of boutique brothels and model callgirls doesn't even register.

The only thing legalizing prostitution has done anywhere is expand the market for traffiked women and the only ones who are materially safer are the men who no longer risk criminal penalties.

[dysfunctional press]

85. the best way for it to be under the bright lights is to legalize it...

when it's illegal- there are plenty of shadows for it to hide in.

or do you somehow think that putting it "under the brightest spotlight possible" will make it just go away?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

86. and once again, that has not worked anywhere.

Legalization only increases demand by removing criminal penalties for men who use prostitutes and increased demand feeds increased traffiking of women. That is NOT an acceptable outcome and shouldn't be an acceptable outcome even if you do favor legalization.

I don't believe for a second prostitution will just go away, but by not legitimizing it we can prevent an explosion in its growth - society has an obligation to protect the vulnerable from exploitation.

[dysfunctional press]

87. and yet- it remains legal in MOST of the civilized world.

but- do you prefer the status quo of prostitution in the united states, in regard to legality?
if not- what is your real world solution?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

88. prevent growth today, cut off supply of women tommorow

and most of the civilized world?

I don't consider half a dozen countries a majority of the civilized world, unless your going to pull a Bush and say "You forgot Latvia"

As far as the United States goes, the status quo is preferable to legalization. That genie would NEVER go back in the bottle.

[dysfunctional press]

89. perhaps you missed where i said REAL WORLD solutions..?

as far as the current worldwide legality goes-

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html
Frequently I am asked, "What countries have legal prostitution?"

It would be easier to ask which countries is it illegal in, that would be a very short list, with mainly the U.S. were consenting adult sexual rights are denied.

Prostitution is LEGAL (with some restrictions that aren't that bad) in Canada, most all of Europe including England, France, Wales, Denmark, etc., most of South America including most of Mexico (often in special zones), Brazil, Israel (Tel Aviv known as the brothel capital of the world), Australia, and many other countries. It is either legal or very tolerated in most all of Asia and even Iran has "temporary wives" which can be for only a few hours! New Zealand passed in 2003 one of the most comprehensive decriminalization acts which even made street hookers legal which is causing many concerns. I do NOT support public nuisance street hookers being legal unless in special zones. But PRIVATE consenting adult sexwork should be legal as it is in most of the world except the U.S.

btw- how does it feel to be on the same side as organized crime in regard to keeping it illegal in the u.s.? you must be so PROUD.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

90. Organized crime LOVES legal prostitution, traffiking women is big business

Even if prostitution were legal it seems awfully unlikely that the US would begin to issue work visas to foreign prostitutes, or maybe we would - there would be atleast 30 republicans votes in the senate for it. It is also unlikely pimps and escort services would be allowed to setup booths on career day or any greater number of american women would enter the sex trade than already do. Which brings us right back to the start, if more men are going to use prostitutes - the girls have to come from SOMEWHERE.

Human traffiking is a great business for organized crime as it is both every bit as lucrative as narcotics and weapons while having a fraction of the risk, virtually all of which is carried by their victims. If the girl makes it over the border, you profit - if she doesn't you are at no risk, customs puts them on the next flight wherever the hell they came from.

How does it feel to accept that the place of disadvantaged women in society is to receive bodily fluids from strange men? A woman isn't just her vagina, mouth and ass - there is a human being attached who probably isn't terribly happy about her present situation as some loser discharges into her for a few bucks. And legalization changes that some how?

[dysfunctional press]

92. yes, because trafficking in women doesn't happen under illegal prostitution...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

you are so incredibly clueless...

it's almost as sad as it is amusing.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

93. better allegedly clueless than a closest misogynist

and trafficking exists to the degree there is a demand for prostitutes. Supply and demand. The greater the demand the greater the number of women trafficked.

Not that the details matter to you, your just trying to justify the exploitation of women.

[reorg]

94. you are living in a fantasy world

>>trafficking exists to the degree there is a demand for prostitutes.<<

The demand for "trafficked women" is actually close to zero. The average customer wants a nice and friendly environment in order to have a good time for a few minutes. That's why brothels in the civilized world are usually clean, the ladies are friendly and good-looking, have self-respect, and get paid well.

Which makes the market e.g. in Germany attractive to foreign prostitutes. For the most part they are here illegally, but on their own. They are here to make money, not because they are under the pressure of some fantasy world pimps. At least that's what people say who know what they are talking about (source: Juanita Henning, Kolumbianische Prostituierte in Frankfurt. Ein Beitrag zur Kritik gängiger Ansichten über Frauenhandel und Zwangsprostitution. ISBN 3-7841-0990-X).

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

95. boutique prostitution isn't even a measurable fraction of the sex trade

The people living in a fantasy world are the ones who think Secret Diary of a Call Girl and Cathouse are real.

[reorg]

96. you simply have not the foggiest idea what you are talking about

I live in a city with a large red light district due to the many trade fairs taking place. The sex trade has been legal here for ages, which is not to say that there has never been harassment or that there weren't attempts by right-wingers to move it into less visible parts of the town.

I am not a customer, but I have been in these brothels - and it is exactly as I told you. If it is legal, there is no need to hide behind dumpsters. These are not the up-market "boutiques" as you call them, just normal town houses. Not particularly flashy or attractive in my view, but not dirty or sleazy either. I once had a neighbor who was a prostitute, just a normal girl who had run away from her family of country bumpkins. In all cases I know of it was a matter of easy money, a way to avoid the slavery of menial factory jobs and burger flipping. These girls knew what they wanted and were far from being "exploited".

The bad stuff happens, too, of course - but it is blown out of all proportion by the usual suspects. Sensationalist media, above all, and uptight right-wing religious crazies who knew all along that sex is bad and had never any real contact with people working in this business.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

97. I worked with real life victims of the sex trade

I am pretty fucking comfortable with my facts,

[Stumbler]

9. Ditto. Prostitutes are employees too.

Take the power away from the pimps, allow the workers to unionize and you'll have a safer, healthier, and taxable industry. It's called "the oldest occupation" for a reason, and it's never going to go away, so let's give those workers the best protections our government can afford.

Oh, but I forget. Our tax-laws and employment protections are currently geared to serve the employers, not the employees, so only the pimps would benefit under the current structure. In addition, we'd have fewer bodies to put in our for-profit prison/industrial complex, and again, that'd hurt the owners and operators of those "businesses." I guess we'll have to overlook common sense once again, and keep it illegal...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

14. how about helping them find another line or work

When I was working with sex trade victims I never met a single one who said her dream in life as a child was to blow strange men in the alley behind Target.

[Stumbler]

26. I am all in favor of that, and I'd say that begins with rebuilding families and strengthing

educational opportunities.

The question I ask is "Why do girls/women/boys get into the sex trade?" Multiple reasons. First, because there is a never-ending supply of 'johns' who are unable to get laid w/o paying for it, or who are willing to pay for sex for whatever reason. Second, there are some individuals who are kidnapped and/or coerced into it. But more likely, it's because a person was not given an opportunity to become something more, through school or work programs, but still has to find a way to make some money to put food on the table to feed their families.

Look at the priorities of this country. For 30 years "education" has been marginalized and demonized. If the Pentagon wants new tanks or missiles *POOF* they get all the money they want. When a Congressman wants to build a new prison to house the rising number of drug users *POOF* they get what they want. But when a teacher asks for more resources or a smaller class size, they get ignored. And as soon "a budget crisis" hits, where are the earliest and deepest cuts made? Education.

Furthermore, our failed War on Drugs has been hugely successful at destroying poor and inner-city families, those who need the most assistance to "become something more." When there are a lack of jobs in a community, families still need to eat, and need money to buy that food. The men may turn to gangs and drugs, only to get incarcerated or killed sooner or later, leaving the women and children to find their own way. If they can't or won't sell drugs, they can always sell themselves to make money. But if they start down that path, they eventually get stuck working for a pimp who takes advantage of them, beats them and generally treats them like shit.

So don't get the wrong idea, I'm all in favor of helping sex-workers find another line of work. But if you're poorly educated, and have no real "job skills," then nobody's gonna hire you. That's why it's better to tackle this problem by focusing less on existing sex-workers, in order to find out 'what' causes 'who' to go into the profession, and then provide resources and intervention early to prevent today's children from becoming tomorrow's sex-workers.

But in the meantime, legalize it, regulate it and tax it. That'll take the power away from the gangs and pimps, while providing a safer, healthier work environment for those who are already in the industry, while at the same time providing a new revenue source for our government to use to implement said regulations.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

33. that has not worked anywhere on earth - it just shifts enforcement

The criminal element remains in the European sex trade, however instead of the police rolling into De Wallen and arresting everybody, now they just arrest the trafficked women as illegal immigrants who are deported so rapidly it is almost impossible to bring cases against the traffickers themselves. Europe also lacks the indigenous permanent underclass we have in the United States.

The sex trade will never be eliminated, but mainstreaming it does nothing to help anybody - except the exploiters of women.

[Stumbler]

48. So what's your solution?

Seriously, I feel like I've been talking to a wall on this issue. I wonder if you have any suggestions on possible solutions to reduce sex-trafficking and lower the number of women entering the sex trade. Or are you just here to say "no" anytime someone suggests legalization and regulation.

I've stated my opinion on legalization and regulation, and explained how the sex workers could have safer working conditions by implementing such actions. I even pointed out how the repeal of Prohibition led to a decrease in the number of societal problems associated with people consuming a formerly outlawed product. I then coupled that argument with support for increasing funding for education and reforming our nation's drug policies to prevent today's children from becoming tomorrow's sex-workers.

In response to those valid points, you shifted the conversation to gangs and European sex-trafficking. You then remind us, without backing up your argument, that legalization will never work and therefore we shouldn't try it at all, because it's just so awful. And in the process you fail to offer a single solution. So, have you any ideas? If so, I'd like to hear them. Or are you just here to say "NO" to any talk of legalized and regulated prostitution?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

50. to start with, don't legitimize or mainstream the sex trade

Once that bridge has been crossed there is no going back, that is an expression by society it has given up on and is throwing away the victims of the sex trade and that they are worthless.

I bring up Europe because you said "the gangs will have little reason to continue sex-trafficking" in Europe that has simply not happened and by allowing the sex trade to become mainstream the demand for prostitutes increases as the risk to men is decreased. However the number of Western European women actually interested in being prostitutes does not. They have to come from somewhere so the trade in women flourishes. And when the focus of enforcement becomes not prostitution but immigration it is the women themselves who are cracked down upon and not the men who employ them.

The simply solution is to address the coercive forces that force people into the sex trade such as poverty and addiction. To suggest that the solution is legalization and some sort of alternative to a social safety net is the ultimate in republican logic. "We don't need welfare! If you can suck a dick, you can find a job".

Not all vice issues are the same, would the consequences of legalizing marijuana be no different than legalizing crystal meth?

There will always be people who will be lost to addiction, there will always be people who will chase what they perceive to be easy money - but it isn't essential that those who are simply poor and lacking in opportunities wind up living on survival sex.

[tabasco]

40. Maybe we should outlaw garbage collection, too.

Nobody wants to grow up to be a garbageman, or a honey-dipper, or diarrhea-cleaner at Denny's.

Outlaw them all!!

[bowens43]

11. Agreed. It is ridiclous that consenting adults

can not engage in prostitution/sex trade if they chose to do so.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

16. yeah, some "choice" - let this freak fuck me in the ass, or don't pay my rent

I love how sex trade apologists are so eager to put prostitution under the umbrella of "consenting adults" without considering the circumstances that brought a person to engage in prostitution in the first place.

[dysfunctional press]

29. most people don't like their jobs.

nothing new about that.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

31. right, it is just another job - just like driving a bus

bus drivers contract HIV and other diseases every day, bus drivers are beaten by their supervisors and passengers every day, bus drivers are found dead and dismembered every day.

[dysfunctional press]

45. if it were legal and regulated- it would be just as safe as driving a bus.

and i know at least a couple of people who'd rather get fucked in the ass all day than drive a bus.

[Stumbler]

49. lol.. So do i.

[girl gone mad]

54. Europe's experience seems to show that the opposite is true.

It's time for us to move into the 21st century, imo.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-07-11-Dutch-human-trafficking_N.htm

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) — A court convicted six people Friday in what prosecutors said was the largest case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands.

Experts said the case could have an impact on Dutch policy because the crimes were committed after brothels were legalized in 2000 in the hope that legitimacy would make it easier for the police to monitor prostitution.

Five of the six convicted men were found guilty of participating in a large, well-established network that kept women in prostitution by force — and with extreme violence.

Some of the victims were compelled to have breast enlargement surgery, and one defendant was convicted of forcing at least one woman to have an abortion. Women were beaten and forced to sit in icy water to avoid bruising. They also were tattooed.

The sentences ranged from eight months to 7 1/2 years. M.E. van Wees, a judge authorized to speak to the media, said the sentences were particularly harsh by Dutch standards because of the violence inflicted on the women.

According to Dutch privacy laws, the identities of the defendants were not released, although officials said the two leaders of the network were born in Turkey and some of the group had lived in Germany.

Seventeen women took the stand in the trial, but some later recanted.

Van Wees said in some cases the judges ignored the attempt to withdraw testimony because "there were signs of intimidation."

Prosecutors said the investigation involves roughly 50 suspects and more than 100 women.

Jan van Dijk, an organized crime and victimology expert at the University of Tilburg, said the timing of the case was significant because it came after years of debate that led to the liberalization of Dutch prostitution laws.

"It was supposed to be very visible and transparent, and yet behind the facade, horrible things were happening under the nose of the police," said van Dijk.

"The honeymoon of the new prostitution legislation is over; we are really reconsidering whether we're on the right track," he said.

[dysfunctional press]

55. "It's time for us to move into the 21st century, imo... "

in what respect?

prostitution will always be around- trying to keep it safe(r) by regulating it is still better than forcing it completely underground.

[knixphan]

72. lol!

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. No, you don't

The best way to decide whether legalization of prostitution is a good idea is to ask yourself a few questions.
Not that anyone would expect honest answers from someone like you, of course, but nevertheless:

If prostitution is legalized:


1. Do you know any women who would happily and proudly become a licensed prostitute?

2. Would you like people to know that you visited a licensed prostitute?

3. Would you like for your sister, daughter, or niece to be a licensed prostitute?



I think that by a large margin, the answers to each would be 'no.' I think legalized prostitution is essentially
legalized exploitation of racial and ethnic minorities, and that is FUCKING WRONG. No pun intended.

[Dreamer Tatum]

74. +1000 and right freaking on

[naaman fletcher]

77. so..

Assuming that the woman's choices are what you described, you would force her to pick "don't pay my rent" when she would prefer "let this dude fuck me in the ass"? You don't think very highly of a woman's right to run her own life, do you?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

79. I don't believe sexual slavery is a substitute for a social safety net

And virtually all women, outside of coercive influences are NOT going to choose to support herself through prostitution.

[naaman fletcher]

80. That doesn't answer the question:

I know you want a utopia, but given the lack of one, are you going to force women to take your choice?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

82. it isn't "my choice"

It is a question of "is the sex trade a reasonable way to expect a woman to earn a living?" it is being argued here that prostitution is "just another job"

[WriteDown]

19. Its kind of like some kids choose to be molested...

Maybe parent permission should be required for that though. :eyes:

[naaman fletcher]

78. do they? I am unaware of such.

[joeybee12]

2. Can they get the idiot sheriff to reimburse Craigslist for its frivulous

lawsuit?

[tomm2thumbs]

4. If they want to chase escort services, they better start at the Yellow Pages -duh

The courts continue to keep this Country sane - thank goodness. We should all order that Sheriff a nice massage for his troubles.

[damntexdem]

5. Let's see: the good sheriff wanted to close down a tool he uses to ID wrongdoers.

Hmm, seems to be something wrong here.

[Frank Cannon]

99. Probably running into too many friends and local politicians on his busts

That's the only reason I can think of that a law enforcement officer would want to shut a chum bucket like this down.

[rasputin1952]

6. Hmmmm....

"Sheriff Dart may continue to use Craigslist's Web site to identify and pursue individuals......yeah, right...:evilgrin:

[paulsby]

8. good ruling

rulings that determine that a person who runs a website are responsible for every aspect of content therein are VERY problematic and are chilling to speech, especially political speech.

whatever one thinks of prostitution (im for it being legal, but that's tangential) rulings that find websites responsible for poster's comment is a VERY troubling trend. rulings like this should be applauded.

[rasputin1952]

15. I am also in favor of legalization of prostittution...

Europe seems to be fine w/it, but the Puritanical side of the US is restless, fools though they be.

[paulsby]

17. lots of places in europe

criminalize prostitution

we hear about the exceptions, but i assure you throughout most of europe, it's illegal

fwiw, it is legal in two places in the US i know of. Certain areas in nevada, and it is also technically legal in rhode island. commercially advertising, it etc. is illegal, but the actual act of prostitution IS legal in RI. it's a strange quirk of RI law

[WriteDown]

18. Some high officials in Europe also boast how great child prostitution is...

I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon.

[rasputin1952]

22. Neither am I!

Abusing children is one of the few "Hot Buttons" I have. There is NO excuse for exploiting children.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Orly?

[WriteDown]

35. Mitterand? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Mitterand said no such thing.

I realize that crazy neo-nazi homophobic French RWers tried to claim that, but I've know idea why you've fell for it and decided to spread it yourself.

[WriteDown]

41. Really?

Guess it was a typo in his book.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. No.

It was homophobic liars taking it out of context.

[WriteDown]

47. Sounds like Ahmadinejad's long lost brother. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. How odd.

Given Mitterand's critics sound like Ahmadinejad himself.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

39. Mitterand is gay and used the term boys generically.

[WriteDown]

42. Not just boys...

YOUNG BOYS. I guess he used the term "young" generically too. I'm sure it's just a coincidence he was one of the first to jump to Polanski's defense too.

[AzNick]

7. I thought they already did that?

And I applauded with both hands. So many underage girls were put on their by abusive pimps and the cops, who are too busy beating students "rioting", did not have the time to take care of it.

[truthisfreedom]

12. Distilling this down to essential components:

Craigslist doesn't CREATE sex trade. That already exists. Anyone stupid enough to advertise illegal sex services on Craigslist deserves to get arrested. Craigslist makes it EASIER for cops to arrest illegal sex traders.

If Craigslist was forced to stop these kinds of ads, the activity would be forced deeper underground, making it harder to investigate. The sheriff is an idiot.

This judge made a good decision.

[NashVegas]

63. Craig's List Enables Sex Trade

ie, gives the trade a conduit. Kind of like how Pirate Bay admins provide a conduit for file sharers. I've a guess that if the Sheriff had used that argument, he might have gotten his way.

[Realityhack]

98. I disagree

There are degrees of enabling something. For example the internet backbones 'enable' file sharing in that it would be more difficult without them. In the pirate bay case you have a service set up specifically to provide a conduit for piracy. You have intent and you have a model designed to assist in illegal activity.

With Craig's list you have a service that is set up for a different legal purpose being used for illegal purposes by some. And the service works with law enforcement to stop that activity.

Those are very different cases legally.

[rayofreason]

56. The oldest profession...

...will never go away.

The only question is how to manage it. I am for legalization and regulation, like some, but not all on this thread. I am also for legalizing drugs. In both cases there is a social cost to pay for legalization versus keeping things illegal and all that comes with legal prohibition. My position is based a calculated choice as to which alternative is least bad for the greatest number of people in the long run.

Get prostitution and drugs out of the hands of criminal organizations and society will be better off even if there are more drug addicts and prostitutes.

[harry_pothead]

58. Good. A victory for the first amendment.

[LisaL]

71. Yes, it is.

[Mind_your_head]

84. I remember the name.....

Tom Dart was the guy who wouldn't toss renters out of their homes when the landlords were going into foreclosure (we haven't heard much of this lately, but "logic" tells us) this must be happening more and more:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS313US314&q=Thomas+Dart%2Bwon%27t+throw+people+out+of+their+homes&aq=f&oq=&aqi=