NWA flight overshot Mpls. by 150 miles

[question everything]

Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune

A Northwest Airbus A320 flying from San Diego overshot its Twin Cities destination by about 150 miles on Wednesday, apparently when the crew became distracted, the National Transportation Safety Board said today.

(snip)

The NTSB said Flight 188 was operating without radio contact at about 37,000 feet at about 7 p.m. The flight had 147 passengers and five crew members. It overshot Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport at 7:58 p.m. The plane few over the Minneapolis-St. Paul Airport and continued 150 miles northeast into Wisconsin. Air traffic controllers re-established contact 8:14 p.m. The NTSB said the controllers reportedly stated that the crew had become distracted and had overflown Minneapolis-St. Paul, and requested a return to the Twin Cities.

The Federal Administration (FAA) said the FBI and airport police interviewed the crew, who said they "were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness." The NTSB is scheduling an interview with the crew.

The FAA notified the military, which put Air National Guard fighter jets on alert at two locations. As many as four planes could have been scrambled, but none ever took to the air.


Read more: http://www.startribune.com/local/65619367.html

---

Are they out of their mind? That commuter plane that crashed in Upstate New York had the recorder showing the crew talking non-aviation topics.

A later report on the local news station said that the pilot is out of job, for now.

[truthisfreedom]

1. Cripes.

5 crew members and nobody noticed.

[madrchsod]

3. several of them will be out of work....

[damntexdem]

33. They "lost situational awareness" and that makes their debate of airline policy moot.

Because some of them will very briefly be affected by airline, and fed, policy -- and then they need worry about airline policy no more.

They had responsibility for about 150 lives -- in such conditions, losing situational awareness should not be an option.

[wordpix]

88. AND they did not answer the radio calls after 7 pm---WTF? They didn't notice

air traffic control was calling to find out what was happening? :shrug:

[mn9driver]

12. 2 crew members.

Captain and First Officer. The three flight attendants in the cabin have no real way of knowing where the airplane is. It takes about 15 minutes to overshoot by 150 miles, which is less than the variation in flight time produced by changes in wind speed on the SAN-MSP route.

[CLANG]

14. But did they really lose track of time for 15-20 minutes?

There seems to be more to this story...

[question everything]

55. Correct. However, they did not respond to air traffic controllers

for an hour and 18 min.

See update, down stream

The pilots never responded to air traffic controllers' repeated efforts to contact them from about 7 p.m., when the plane was over western Kansas, until 8:14 p.m. when the plane was in Wisconsin, about 150 miles northeast of MSP. The plane flew over the Twin Cities at 7:58 p.m.

[Mr. Sparkle]

2. That dose not make sense. You don't just have an argument and miss your landing spot by 150 miles.

*if* it was true, than these stupid mofo's should never fly again.

[Hissyspit]

4. Seems I remember that the commuter plane crew in upstate NY WERE talking aviaton topics.

They were talking about how they couldn't make a living at flying airplanes. (Yes, I realize you mean specific to the flight.)

It seems it is the same with this case. They way pilots are being paid and treated is distracting them from doing a good job. No surprise. I'm not justifying their behavior, but no surprise. Some pilots are on public assistance.

[Zoeisright]

6. +1000

Pilots aren't being paid enough. Many of them have second jobs. I can't believe that the aviation industry treats its employees this badly.

[Hissyspit]

8. This is systemic. Indicative of a larger dysfunction.

[Zoeisright]

9. Yep, it sure is.

[uppityperson]

28. +1000 for that also."Pilots aren't being paid enough. Many of them have second jobs. I can't believe

"Pilots aren't being paid enough. Many of them have second jobs. I can't believe that the aviation industry treats its employees this badly."

[Canuckistanian]

35. +1

You've got to wonder how much of a factor extreme job dissatisfaction plays in these incidents.

Not to mention fatigue from the increased work loads pilots are expected to handle these days.

[question everything]

44. No excuse. They have the lives of passengers

plus, whoever may be hit on the ground - as happened in NY - in their hands.

Pilots, like surgeons, have to think of the lives entrusted to their hands. If they cannot handle it then they do not belong in the cockpit, or in the OR.

Why is it that people on DU love to change a direction of a discussion to raise their favorite topics?

Yes, doctors are being forced to close their offices while CEOs of insurance companies, and shareholders make like bandits. But if a doctor is thinking of his miserable income instead of the life that is in his hand - he really should quit.

Same with pilots.

[mule_train]

46. well said nt

[Hissyspit]

50. See #48.

[Hissyspit]

48. Not an excuse. An acknowledgement of how the world works.

I didn't "change the direction of the discussion." This incident is ABOUT the bigger picture. The disastrous state of our air travel system. Someone posted something that was in a certain perspective inaccurate and I pointed out that inaccuracy. As I said in my post, I was not justifying the flight crews actions. The New York flight crew DIED - they lost their own lives - because of the situation they were forced into. Do you think they wanted to lose their lives?

You can have all the good intentions and integrity in the world and if you are being pushed to the point of not being able to think clearly, then anything can happen - and does. As I said before, this incident was more than likely systemic.

[mule_train]

52. ' not being able to think clearly'

you mean they thought they should be discussing company policies instead of final approach?

i've worked in incredibly abusive work environments, and i've also flown a plane

no sale

[Hissyspit]

56. Go ahead and ignore the warning signs.

As I said, I'm not EXCUSING the behavior.

[caseymoz]

103. The subjects are related enough that you have no complaint.

There is no arguing with your assertion that if they can't handle it they shouldn't be in the cockpit. The question is, how many can handle it at about, $19,000 a year? With that pay, I could see where somebody would be desperate enough to think they're handling it when they're really not. Hell, if they work for that much, their judgment is suspect before they even take off. How well can they maintain themselves on pay that low? You know they probably aren't sleeping in peace and comfort in a quiet room and comfortable bed when they are not flying.

Even Chesley Sullenberger, III, pilot of Flight 1549, the Hero of Hudson, said he started a consulting business and had to work seven days a week to make ends meet. And he said:

It is my personal experience that my decision to remain in the profession I love has come at a great financial cost to me and my family. My pay has been cut 40%, my pension, like most airline pensions, has been terminated and replaced by a PBGC guarantee worth only pennies on the dollar

While airline pilots are by no means alone in our financial struggles – and I want to acknowledge how difficult it is for everyone right now – it is important to underscore that the terms of our employment have changed dramatically from when I began my career, leading to an untenable financial situation for pilots and their families. When my company offered pilots who had been laid off the chance to return to work, 60% refused. Members, I attempt to speak accurately and plainly, so please do not think I exaggerate when I say that I do not know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps.

I am worried that the airline piloting profession will not be able to continue to attract the best and the brightest. The current experience and skills of our country’s professional airline pilots come from investments made years ago when we were able to attract the ambitious, talented people who now frequently seek lucrative professional careers. That past investment was an indispensible element in our commercial aviation infrastructure, vital to safe air travel and our country’s economy and security. If we do not sufficiently value the airline piloting profession and future pilots are less experienced and less skilled, it logically follows that we will see negative consequences to the flying public – and to our country.

This is what the best pilot said. So, what did we see in this case? Pilots who are not the best and the brightest, who were probably mentored by somebody who had been on the job six months longer than they have. People who have $70-90 thousand dollars worth of student debt, without any hope of paying it off on the salaries they receive-- not without a second job.

If these guys are as incompetent as it looks, though, they should be disciplined, or have their licenses pulled.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

86. Michael Moore wrote about this in "Downsize This" in *1997*!!!

Occupations in which I don't want people needing to cut corners so they can make their night shift at Quickie Mart or falling asleep on the job:

- Surgeons
- Pilots
- Airplane mechanics
- Anesthetists
- Surgical nurses
- EMTs (though they could combine emergency services with pizza delivery, perhaps)
- Firefighters (see EMT caveat, above)

[KansDem]

87. "EMTs (though they could combine emergency services with pizza delivery, perhaps)"

Considering some of the pizzas I've had delivered over the years (:puke:), they could have preformed their two jobs at the same time!

[amborin]

97. no

they discussed family, vacations, everything, and broke 'sterile cockpit' rules banning idle chatter below 10k ft...they were so engrossed in the idle chatter they failed to see their airspeed was very low

and---the pilot had failed 5 flight check tests, and lied about his previous bad record to Colgan

he was basically incompetent, and had spent upwards of $50K for private flight lessons

i am totally sympathetic to pilots' lousy hours and stressful conditions, but renslow was an unsafe and incompetent pilot

if anything, what that case illustrated was how some private flight schools are substandard; how some people are simply not qualified to be pilots but persist out of some stubborn vanity or some such and pay huge sums for private lessons and wind up in very low paying regional carriers where they may be jeopardizing people's safety.

i posted the ny times articles here a while back re: the colgan crash in buffalo

[mattvermont]

5. they were sleeping, I bet nt.

[question everything]

47. Flight voice recorder will clear this (nt)

[Codeine]

93. Unfortunately no.

It only records the last thirty minutes; it took longer than that to return to Mpls.

[Liberal_in_LA]

85. at least one pilot should remain awake

[WriteDown]

7. What do you expect from Dr. Dre's airline? nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

84. lol.

[cloudbase]

10. Distracted, eh?

That's what they're calling it? I'm going with the catching some Zs explanation.

[W T F]

11. The non- essensial coversation rule is only applicable below 10,000 feet

They were above that altitude when they over flew MSP

[question everything]

45. When they were flying over MSP they should have been

less than 10,000 feet and below.

[harun]

13. This won't happen anymore once we hand the controls over to skynet for good.

[Sabriel]

15. I'm going to use that next time I'm pulled over: "situational awareness"

"Sorry, officer, I was in a heated discussion over single-payer policy, and I lost situational awareness."

[mule_train]

42. glossery: toxic assets, losing situation awareness

losing situational awareness - not doing your job of flying a plane going 400 miles an hour

toxic assets - very heavy bet gone wrong - heads you would have won, tails the taxpayer now loses and you get a bonus

[mn9driver]

16. Unlikely that they fell asleep.

This is not a redeye flight. The Captain and First Officer are trying to save their jobs and avoid large fines and suspensions right now, so they will be very, very honest about what happened--any evidence of deception in their reports will result in the loss of any possible immunity they might receive. The A320 is a very smart airplane. If they fell asleep and are lying about it, a quick check of the CVR makes it easy to prove the matter one way or the other.

These guys are highly stressed due to the state of the industry and the ongoing merger with Delta which is going to uproot many Northwest and Delta pilots in January, as well as huge upcoming changes in medical care and work rules. They could easily have gotten into a very heated vent session as a result.

Not professional, but very human.

[W T F]

18. The CVR can't be pulled for enforcement. it's strictly for crash investagation only

[mn9driver]

24. The CVR recording would not be used to justify a civil penalty.

It would only be used to verify the crew's statements in their testimony. If the crew statements do not match the evidence, any immunity they have goes away. Without immunity, these crew members will be subject to civil sanctions and no CVR evidence is necessary to investigate and impose those sanctions. ATC tapes, the flight track itself, and the crew's own statements are all that is needed to hammer these guys. All of those things are perfectly legal to use.

The only use for the CVR in this case is to determine whether they are being truthful, and are therefore entitled to immunity under one of the self-reporting programs. They WILL pull the CVR and check it. Guaranteed.

[W T F]

29. No they won't. It's against the law. and besides that.........

It automatacly erases itself when the aircraft's rotating beacon is turned off when the aircraft is shut down at the gate. believe me, I'm a 15 year veteran airline captain who works for a major airline.

[mn9driver]

41. Yawn. I'm a 22 year captain,

check airman, line check airman, sim instructor, oe instructor, safety school grad and Nasa Ames volunteer. I also have over 2500 hours on the A320. Your idea of how the CVR on that aircraft works is incorrect. Your idea of what they can do with the CVR is also incorrect. Maybe someone else will be impressed with your qualifications and speculations.

[caseymoz]

98. I always like how these technical arguments end here. nt

[question everything]

57. It can and it is

from an update:

The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in Washington, D.C.

http://www.startribune.com/local/65619367.html?page=2&c=y

[W T F]

20. My best guess is that they fell asleep.

you don't just fly past your home base and not notice. That, along with the fact that they lost comm with ATC leans me toward that theory.

[av8rdave]

26. Missed frequency change could easily cause that

It's not uncommon. Especially with congested radio frequencies and controllers having to work more than one frequency at a time.

Obviously, we don't know yet exactly what happened in this case, but there is more than one possibility.

[W T F]

30. Your right but I did say it was my best guess.

But flying past your home base doesn't go unnoticed by both pilots. I can't imagine what the FMS was doing exceept go into dead reconing mode once it went past MSP.

[av8rdave]

31. You could be right....although stranger things have happened

Will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

[question everything]

51. A passenger was on the local news

He said that the captain was cheerful, said that in 15 min they would be on the ground and.. nothing happened.

Last week my spouse was flying out of town with delays and changing planes and connecting airports. So I was watching for departures and arrivals at airports sites, flightarrival.com and the sites of the airlines and I was getting conflicting information for awhile.

Had I been tracking this flight and then, for an hour and 18 minutes there would be no information, I would have called the police, the FBI, FAA and local reporters.

Even the military was ready with its fighter jets to intercept the flight, if needed.

[amborin]

70. weren't they

returning at night from Rio, after a bad rotation/

12 hours on at night, then sleep during day, then night flight back to Atlanta, landing in dawn darkness, with no runway landing lights

[svpadgham]

17. Regardless of what one is paid

the possibility of dying in twisted airplane wreckage should be enough to keep one from getting distracted while piloting.

[CLANG]

23. You can say that again! (n/t)

[caseymoz]

101. It would seem so, but see how that applies to people driving.

When the risk of ending up dying in twisted car wreckage is greater than their danger, normally.

Add to that overwork, with a schedule that doesn't give them adequate rest, and underpay them so they need a second job. Would you drive well all the time under those circumstances?

I'm thinking they have to reform our airline system, and even if these pilots were at fault, conditions must be made conducive to pilots generally being much more on the ball.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

19. best cockpit transcript ever,

A few years ago a pilot showed me a cockpit transcript of a crew ignoring ATC instructions while they were boasting about their conquests with specific flight attendants.

[lib2DaBone]

22. Screw U... How do you know? Have you ever worked 23 hours in a day..

[uppityperson]

27. What? Insult and non-sequiter all in one post = Wtf?

who works 23 hours/day and wtf does that have to do with anything? (I have "worked 23 hours in a day" but am not a pilot or ATC) (Is it acceptable for a pilot or ATC to work 23 hours in a day?) WTF?

"Screw U"? WTF?

[caseymoz]

100. I think the post is a stray. It belongs with the one above.

Starting with "Regardless of what you're paid . . ."

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

72. I have actually,

But it is none the less hilarious that the phrase "that girl can suck start an RB211" appears in an official government document.

[caseymoz]

99. delete

Under: regardless of what one is paid . . .

[mule_train]

40. scariest recording i ever heard was a crew

laughing and joking about a recent plane crash

about 2 minutes later, their own plane crashed and they were all dead

[Blue_Tires]

65. the transcript associated with this story is pretty good, too:

should have been a SNL skit were it not so tragic...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/2156137.html

[Gman]

21. Cheney would have shot them down

and asked questions later.

[lib2DaBone]

25. Ronald Raygun Deluxe....

Do you know how much money it costs for pilot training? Do you know what they pay new pilots?

If anyone thinks they can glide into the Captain's seat and make big bucks... keep on dreaming...

The Bankster/Gangsters and CEO's at airlines have made sure that no hard-working pilot will ever receive proper pay.

When you crash... put your head between your knees.. and thank your good buddies in Washington.. who de-regulated the airline industry. Maybe Goldman Sachs CEOs can climb behind the controls of a 747?

America.. The land of the Sleeping and the Sheeple.. so fucking sad...

[Dreamer Tatum]

108. Oh horseshit

http://www.fltops.com/content.asp?ID=57">Average salaries for different air carriers


Looks like pilots still do pretty well in the age of deregulation.


And I would LOVE for you to show any evidence that air travel is less safe under deregulation (hint: you can't, because it isn't true).

And no, I'm not a shill for the airline industry, but you are a shill for the bullshit industry.

[dflprincess]

32. All of a sudden they're back to calling it Northwest?

What happened to Delta?

Reminds me of the story about Richard Harris used to tell which goes as follows:

Harris had appeared on the British stage and screen for over a decade when he won an award at the 1964 Cannes festival for his role in This Sporting Life. The British press announced the good news with the headline, "British Actor Wins Cannes Award". When, a few days later, Harris got into a bar fight, the same press announced, "Irish Actor Involved in Brawl".

He tells the story here, from 2:12 to 3:15 (watch the rest of the clip if you want to hear Harris tell one of his famous tales involving Peter O'Toole, yet another Irish actor whom the British claimed as one of their own when it suited them).

http://dredtory.blogspot.com/2009/02/business-as-usual-in-imperium.html

I suppose whenever something unsettling happens, they'll divert our attention by referring to "Northwest".

[question everything]

58. Yes, many flights are still called Northwest

and then there are Delta flight.

We made a reservation several weeks ago. We thought it was Delta but, apparently, was one of those Northwest commuter partner. Did not seem as if we could get seat assignments, called Delta only to realize that it was thru Northwest and we had to call there.

Not a seamless takeover, it seems.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

60. for regulatory purposes Northwest is still Northwest

Until a common certificate is issued to Delta and the merged NWA they remain in the eyes of the FAA, DOT and others two separate airlines.

[dflprincess]

74. I flew to Nashville a few weeks ago

my travel documents had both NWA/Delta on them. The flight crew and the personel at the ticket counters were all wearing Delta uniforms. The regulation technicalities may still show 2 airlines but they're trying to present one airline to the public (there were no NWA counters at the airport either).

The trip home was a nightmare thanks to weather delays, but I have to say the NWA/Delta people I had to deal with were wonderful and did their best to get my traveling companions and me home as quickly as possible.

[peacebuzzard]

90. because it was a Northwest flight, route and crew.

The merger is not complete yet. Ongoing, but not complete. Northwest crew still operate NW flights, and have not integrated yet. Currently training is ongoing for flight attendants to work both a/c but the pilots are sticking to their a/c.

[amborin]

34. they were on a bad rotation; 12 hrs on to Rio, one day sleep, then a long night flight, landing in

dark in Atlanta

[amborin]

92. whoops! i was confusing the NWA with the Delta flight that landed on the taxiway

in Atlanta

*those* pilots had a bad rotation and were likely tired

[question everything]

96. wondered about it. See #80, below (nt)

[LisaM]

36. Working too many hours is what I heard

That can cause anyone to lose focus.

[mule_train]

39. that's comforting

but you'll end up just as dead

[man4allcats]

37. Hey look! Why are those fighter jets out there dogging us, and

why do they have Canadian maple leaves on their tails? Hey wait a minute. Where the hell are we anyway? What do you mean we missed Minneapolis?!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Soylent Brice]

38. "were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness."

that's what happens when you pay, and treat, pilots like shit.

not surprised one bit.

[Brickbat]

59. Damn straight. I got your +1 right here.

It's amazing the crap they and flight attendants are put through.

[Soylent Brice]

89. i have a friend who is an airline stewardess.

we were just talking last week, and all i can say is that these have to be some of those most mistreated workers in our country. not the worst, but pretty fucking close.

[question everything]

91. We now refer to them as flight attendants

:hi:

[caseymoz]

104. My question is how do they lose situational awareness for 75 minutes?

As they say, time flies.

[Odin2005]

43. Oops!

[rayofreason]

49. Will passengers get the extra FF miles? n/t.

[mule_train]

53. no, they'll get a larger fuel surcharge for the extra distance nt

[question everything]

54. An update:

The pilots never responded to air traffic controllers' repeated efforts to contact them from about 7 p.m., when the plane was over western Kansas, until 8:14 p.m. when the plane was in Wisconsin, about 150 miles northeast of MSP. The plane flew over the Twin Cities at 7:58 p.m.

The situation became increasingly alarming from a safety and security standpoint because the pilots could have been in distress or the plane hijacked, said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Tony Molinari. Control towers in Denver and Minneapolis tried to contact them, as did Northwest, via its dispatch network.

and

The fighter pilots would have flown by the plane to see whether someone was in control or tried "other methods" to get the attention of the pilots. "Usually when you see fighters off your wing, it gets your attention," he said, noting that the jets get called into action with commercial planes a handful of times each year.


http://www.startribune.com/local/65619367.html

[nashville_brook]

62. jets called into action w/comm planes a handful of times a year...except on 9/11

[excess_3]

61. do these pilots have names?

if yes, does anyone know their names.

I would rather not fly with these pilots

[question everything]

66. These pilots are not going to fly any planes

in the near future, or even in the further one.

[Blue_Tires]

63. flight tracker:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP/tracklog

[question everything]

68. Fascinating site. I will have to bookmark it

or not..

Interesting that there is a Minneapolis Center and Minneapolis TRACON.

[amborin]

71. flight stats is great too

[Blue_Tires]

64. obvious dumb question here:

is it at all possible the air traffic controllers made some kind of mistake to lose radio contact??

[question everything]

67. See the update #54 above

Controllers tried to contact them but if they don't get a response, there is nothing they can do, except, I suppose, to alert the authorities and, apparently, fighter jets were ready to take off.

[notesdev]

69. Overshoot around DC by 0.15 miles and they shoot you down

Don't put those pilots on any routes to Reagan National.

[maglatinavi]

73. over miles

Speaking about Reagan, he is the one responsible for all the aviation decontrolled by fiat. It scares me a lot! :scared: :scared: :scared:

[slackmaster]

75. Ruthless4Life

[WriteDown]

76. Wandering Flight Spurs Nap Probe

Source: WSJ

Federal officials are working to sort out whether pilots of a Northwest Airlines flight dozed off or were simply distracted Wednesday night when they fell out of contact with air-traffic controllers for more than an hour and overshot their destination by 150 miles.

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating, among other things, whether the two pilots fell asleep at the controls. The pair told law-enforcement officials who interviewed them upon landing in Minneapolis -- and apparently told fellow pilots later -- that they had been engaged in a "heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," according to the NTSB.

Whatever the reason, the plane may have flown out of range of one air-traffic-control center and failed to take steps to get back on course and resume radio contact with controllers, according to industry and government officials close to the situation.

During the 78-minute radio silence, controllers became so concerned about the fate of the 149 people aboard that they asked pilots of other aircraft in the vicinity to see if they could rouse the Northwest crew, according to industry and government officials. When that failed, the Federal Aviation Administration and military official began to consider having fighter jets scrambled to intercept the twin-jet Airbus A320, these officials said.

When an aircraft fails to respond for such a long time, it is routine procedure to send fighters to try to determine the problem.

The incident -- which pilots and safety experts consider a bizarre break from routine procedure -- had the plane crossing various air-traffic-control zones and being passed to different groups of controllers without any verbal response. It comes as federal regulators, lawmakers and airlines are focusing on the issue of pilot fatigue and debating possible changes to rules that spell out how long pilots can fly or be on duty in a 24-hour period....


Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125623517851801783.html?mod=igoogle_wsj_gadgv1&

---

Taking a nap or distracted for over an hour. No good options.

[thunder rising]

77. Both of them are done. Question is, how pervasive is this

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

78. This is a good reason for me to never get a pilot license

I miss freeway exits way too often. Maybe I'm talking with a passenger, maybe even on the cellphone. Or maybe just focused on something on the radio. Hopefully not napping.

Miss an entire city? Yeah, I could do that.

:hi:

At least when I'm driving, nobody scrambles the fighter jets.

[leanderj]

79. Maybe they should attach airline pilots to an electric alarm system to JOLT them awake

like some kind of microtaser??

[question everything]

80. Pilot fatigue and an incident in Atlanta

From the WSJ:

Pilot fatigue has long been regarded as one of the most serious safety issues confronting commercial aviation. The FAA, airlines and pilot unions now all agree U.S. rules dealing with pilot fatigue are outdated and don't reflect the latest science. The FAA wants to replace the one-size-fits-all rules on pilot workdays with a system that takes into consideration things such as the time of day pilots work, the number of takeoffs they perform and the internal body clocks of crew members.

Though the practice of nodding off midflight in the cockpit is prohibited by the FAA, U.S. airlines and pilot unions say there is a growing body of research supporting the notion that so-called controlled napping by part of a cockpit crew can enhance safety by making crews more alert during critical, often hectic descents and landings. For years, several foreign airlines have endorsed the idea of having one pilot at a time briefly doze off during routine cruise portions of certain flights.

Wednesday night's incident is the second time in less than a week that a cockpit crew was involved in a high-profile safety mix-up. On Monday, a long-range Delta Boeing 767 en route from Brazil to Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport landed on a taxiway, rather than the parallel runway. There were no injuries to any of the 182 passengers or 11 crew members.

The NTSB is investigating whether pilot fatigue or distraction was an important factor in that incident. The Delta crew had flown all night and was landing in darkness. The approach lights for the runway weren't turned on. But the lights on the runway, which are different in color and pattern from those on the taxiway, were illuminated, according to the safety board.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125623517851801783.html

[MajorChode]

81. Airliner overshoots airport; controllers feared hijacking

Source: CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A passenger flight from San Diego, California, to Minneapolis, Minnesota, overshot its destination airport by about 150 miles Wednesday, and federal investigators are looking into whether the pilots had become distracted, as they claimed, or perhaps fallen asleep.

Air traffic controllers lost radio communication with the Northwest Airlines Airbus A320, carrying 147 passengers and an unknown number of crew, when it was flying at 37,000 feet, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. There was no communication with Flight 188 for more than an hour as it approached the airport, the board said.

When air traffic controllers finally made contact with the pilot, his answers were so vague that controllers feared the plane might have been hijacked, according to a source familiar with the incident.

The controllers in Minneapolis ordered the pilot to make a series of unnecessary maneuvers to convince them the pilots were in control of the flight, the source said, adding that fighter jets were poised in Madison, Wisconsin, but were never deployed.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23/airliner.fly.by/index.html

---

I've always believed that modern autopilots should include an alarm clock.

[Ian David]

82. I'm surprised they don't.

[MajorChode]

83. Are you saying Julie Hagerty should have done to them what she did to Otto?

[Roland99]

109. That's actually my thought. They were doing something *inappropriate* in that cockpit

[Codeine]

94. Straight Outta Delta! nt

[Blandocyte]

95. I Effin' HATED NWA

Ice Cube was ok, tho.

[defendandprotect]

102. Pilots are making $25,000 a year now??? And how long are we going to have

oil enough to support this industry?

Trains, boats . . .

[Lionshare]

105. Legacy pilots make much more then $25k per year

defendandprotect, you are wrong. If your a pilot for a major carrier then you will start off in the high 50K.

[defendandprotect]

106. I remember Michael Moore commenting on this . .. but a generation ago . . .

pilots were making $75,000 a year or more --

and had working unions.

And, as far as I can see, right now after 8 years of Bush, our dollar is worth about

half of what it once was.

At any rate, our age of the airplane may be coming to an end unless we figure out how

to fly solar --

!!!

[Dreamer Tatum]

107. And air travel was reserved for the rich, mostly nt

[mbperrin]

110. I haven't flown since Raygun fired the air traffic controllers.

Don't plan to, either.

Stories like this only reinforce that decision.

[defendandprotect]

111. Well, it was pre-Reagan, but it was in the 1970's .... at least --