Police: Gang rape outside school dance lasted over two hours

[WriteDown]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- A California high school student who police said was gang raped in a two-and-a-half-hour assault outside a homecoming dance remained hospitalized in stable condition Monday, two days after she was flown from the attack scene in critical condition.

As of late Monday, two suspects had been arrested in the case and a third was being questioned.

"There is one individual in custody who has made some spontaneous statements that have led me to believe that he is culpable for what happened," Richmond police Lt. Johan Simon said.

Nineteen-year-old Manuel Ortega, described as a former student at the school, was arrested soon after he fled the scene and will face charges of rape, robbery and kidnapping, police said.

A 15-year-old was later arrested and charged with one count of felony sexual assault. A third teenager was being interviewed, according to Lt. Mark Gagan of the police department in Richmond, California.....

......Investigators said as many as 15 people, all males, stood around watching the assault, but did not call police or help the victim, a 15-year-old student at Richmond High School in suburban San Francisco.....

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html

---

15 people watched?!?!!??!

[ejpoeta]

1. two hours and 15 people stood by and watched. what the hell is wrong with people!!!

[WriteDown]

4. I'm starting to think that parenting skills.....

may be getting a little lax.

[AzNick]

13. That and a certain type of porn

Unfortunately so called "rape videos" and "gang bang videos" give some teens the wrong ideas that women are into that and that "no" means "yes".

I bet some even filmed it on their cellphones.

[musicblind]

29. I've dated people who participate in porn and have watched a good deal of it myself and no

porn does not turn you into a sick and twisted person. There is no amount of sexual activity that would ever make a sane person think something like this was okay.

This has to do with society slowly developing a callous over its heart from years of trying to "fit in" or believe it's okay to screw someone over because "they'd probably screw you too if they had the chance."

Mean, callous, and uncaring seems to be the new human condition.

For example:

Below is a recent article in which 5 teens (led by a 15 year old) poured alcohol over another 15 year old boy (who had been so afraid of the bullies he'd stayed home from school that day) and they lit him on fire because the poor boy had reported them for stealing his father's bicycle. What is worse is that CNN reported the teenagers laughed about it to the sheriff's face while being interrogated and did not show remorse for having destroyed this boy. The boy they set on fire, Michael Brewer, has 2nd and 3rd degree burns on either 65 or 80% of his body (depending on which news source reports the story). He will be in the hospital's ICU for at least 5 months and will then have to undergo intensive rehabilitative therapy. He had his first skin graft surgery last week. What is worse are people who leave comments at the end of news articles making fun of this boy or saying "well he shouldn't have called the cops" ... something is deeply wrong with our society right now (and I'm not one of those "old people" who look back on the past and imagine Hitler didn't exist or we didn't have mass racism or sexism.) But, unlike other times in our history, we are flat out of excuses, we have no more, we know better... we have the internet, education, and most everyone has plenty of real life experience with people of all race's and gender... yet these things like this happen not because of ignorance or status quo but because people just don't care. They enjoy watching someone else suffer because their own lives are so sad and squashed that seeing anguish in another person is the only form of happiness they are able to get or understand.

Link: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/16/crimesider/entry5389645.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

[knixphan]

33. Agreed.

It ain't about porn. I'm in the 'parenting' camp when it comes to looking for root causes. Somewhere, somebody has to teach a kid (male or female) that FORCING anyone to do anything (especially, but not limited to, sexually) equals complete disqualification for respect as a human being.

[AzNick]

39. Young teens can be influenced by it

And your case is your case.

Teenage boys seeing women treated like meat in these videos are likely to be influenced into thinking that this is normal behavior.

Porn videos are ok between adults who like to play rough at times, but they have very poor educational values.

A teacher friend of mine who does sex ed had seen an increase in odd questions since the rise in popularity of Internet porn and since it has become more and more extreme over the years.

A 15-year old boy even asked why his girlfriend did not enjoy being rudely sodomized by him "like in the movies". She realized later that the practice was popular because, as she was told, "you don't always have a condom with you!"

[musicblind]

46. What about gay porn?

Who is the victim there?

Is it the bottom? Because I know a lot of bottoms and none of them are victims.

My dad ties my mom up and sometimes my mom ties my dad up. They've always been open with me and honest about sex. I think that has been the biggest difference in why I am respectful of my sexual partners even when we play a little "rough" so to speak.

I've seen all kinds of porn, and have likely experienced (from working as a male entertainer in gay clubs as well as having known porn producers such as Bryan Kocis) more encounters with people who have had the opportunity to be influenced by porn than most posters on here. I'm not saying that proves my point, but I feel it does give me a look at a larger sample pool of people who have had their lives touched by the porn industry.

My mother is also a teacher, and I've worked with kids on a regular basis as a former board member for our local community theater. The hateful trend in society is not aimed at one sex, but is now aimed at the human species in general.

I also don't think anyone believes porn is meant to educate. Most people watching porn know that the actors and actresses are being paid to "act" and many of them, from my experience of knowing them personally, I'd say most of them do enjoy themselves during the videos. They may not be representative of the majority of people who would not enjoy that... It would be the same as watching a gross surgery show and assuming that everyone on earth would enjoy performing such graphic surgery on someone else.

The problem then, lies not with pornography, but with the more sex phobic members of our society who fail to explain pornography in detail. People who fail to take the time to point out, as they would with any other form of entertainment, that pornography is a portrait of only "certain individuals" and not all individuals or even the majority.

I'm sorry for your sex ed teacher, but I am proud of her as well, because she is taking the time to provide a very valuable service. She is taking the time to teach children not to be afraid or ashamed of sex. She should talk to my closet friend Jesse Duncan from Triad Health who teaches sex education courses entitled "The Sex Buffet" which discusses all types of sexual behavior with frank and open honesty. The idea is, the better educated someone is about sex, the more exposed they are to a "sexual buffet" the more healthy their outlook on sex. I've attended some of Jesse's lessons and odd questions do come up, and Jesse (being very smart) handles such things by discussing them. He even discusses the PROPER way to tie up your partner. He suggests things such as "paper rope" so that the partner can easily snap the binding if something goes wrong, or using a safe word so the partner has control over when the sex act begins or ends.

You say "rudely sodomized" as though no one would enjoy that. I can tell you as a gay male, a lot of people DO enjoy that... both male and female. The correct answer to give that 15 year old boy is to tell him that anal sex is perfectly normal and perfectly acceptable human behavior but ONLY as long as it is desired by both parties. It should ONLY be practiced with someone who also desires such things just as much as their partner does. It should be explained that what is NOT normal and acceptable human behavior is trying to pressure or persuade someone into ANY sex act that they do not wish to take part in (even if it is just kissing). There should be an explanation of the difference between preparing a "scene" (as it is called in the BDSM community) which everyone can pre-plan and script out, along with clear and unique safe words, verses using real force where one party is left with no control over what is happening.

If the teenager, despite the new information he has been given, decides to pressure or persuade his partner into anal sex anyway... then that say something about his ability to empathize with others and reflects on modern parenting rather than pornography.

It is the same way we explain to children that it is okay to dress up like Batman on Halloween, but the movie is not reality and you'll likely be killed if you run off to fight crime at a local drug house while wearing a towel-cape.

Education is the key, not limiting pornography.

At least that is my opinion, and I try to back it up with information and evidence from my own life.

[AzNick]

50. Where did I say you need to limit porn?

I agree, parenting is the key.

I never said you needed to limit porn or anything like that, I just made a simple point.

[musicblind]

53. You said the following:

"Teenage boys seeing women treated like meat in these videos are likely to be influenced into thinking that this is normal behavior."

And my response is that we need to educate them, rather than limit porn. You are correct that you did not specifically say that we need to limit porn, but you did try and blame pornography for that kind of behavior.

Most of the people who claim that porn is the influence causing these problems also advocate limiting pornography. If that is not your belief then I am very glad and commend you that!

[ThomCat]

54. I think you are missing the point.

I say this as a gay man. You are bring up the whole gay angle as a distraction from the issue, not as a clarification.

Yes, people learn from porn, just like they learn from every form of mass media. To think otherwise is absurd. Porn is a way means of communicating messages. It communicates roleplaying, and kids learn what those roles are, and who takes what roles, and what the boundaries are of those roles, and who does what, and what the power dynamics are, who is in charge and tells the other one what to do.

They learn how to act, and what is considered appropriate. So if they are seeing a whole lot of guys who don't know names of the women they are having sex with, don't care, and who get rough with the women at seemingly random moments and get away with it the that will seem normal.

What are the odds that a guy is going to have sex and act in a way that contradicts everything he has seen in porn? Unless he has been getting equally strong messages about how to act from someplace else, the odds are pretty slim. People act the way they have learned to act. People learn to act by imitation, especially when they are very nervous and insecure.

The more porn becomes the common, and ubiquitous source of sex ed the more it is going to be THE source that people imitate. That's a pretty scary thought.

The example given in the post above, of men forcing rough sex upon a woman is not even remotely the same thing as two people agreeing in advance that they both enjoy a bit of rough sex. Porn is increasingly making it seem normal for men to get rough with women, and is STILL making it seem normal to have sex without a condom.

If sex educators who work with kids are seeing a correlation between early access to porn and changes in the attitudes and questions kids are asking, I would pay attention to this. That is important. These are the people who would notice the significant differences first, and they are much more likely to get a more complete view of the situation than we are sitting back at a message board speculating.


I think issues of of gay porn and how it influences kids have to be looked at separately because

1. We are dealing with a minority population that contains subcultures. This is going to be inherently very different than discussions involving straight teens.

2. Whether people are in or out of the closet can have a huge effect on how they view gayness and being gay, and that has to be taken into account in any discussion of how anything effects gay kids' attitude. Kids that are still in the closet are trying harder to still act like straight kids. Kids who are out of the closet might be trying to differentiate themselves from straight kids, or not.

3. When discussing how gay porn influences anyone you have to take into account homophobia. Homophobic exaggerations of what gay porn is, and the supposedly power of gay porn over gay people, and gay porn as a supposed recruiting tool, etc. Fear of gay porn is a huge issue, and that needs to be separated out from any real discussion of the actual influence porn has on voluntary viewers.

In a lot of ways, it is easiest to star the discussion by sticking with porn that deals with consenting heterosexuals, excluding fetishes, because this is the bulk of porn. If we can get some serious ideas of how porn influences people, and how much or how little, then we can branch off into how different types of porn influence more or less or influence in different ways.

[musicblind]

58. You seem to be the one missing the point. Or at least not reading my entire post.

First you say that "if sex educators who work with kids are seeing a correlation" to this while I have pointed out that the sex educators I know are not seeing porn as a problem, as I have personal friendships with multiple sex educators thanks to some of the charities I have been involved in as well as my night time profession. Why is my anecdotal evidence less valuable to you than the above poster's anecdotal evidence? You should ask yourself that to see if you aren't coming into this conversation with a slightly skewed perspective.

Second you say "Yes, people learn from porn, just like they learn from every form of mass media. To think otherwise is absurd." But I feel you are wrong in your assumption that watching rough sex in porn leads people to think it is okay to rape someone and here is why: Like I mentioned before, I feel that would be the same argumentative fallacy as thinking someone who sees Batman running after bad guys (or really any other type of fantasy) would assume that it was appropriate behavior. The reason they don't assume that is because people clearly inform them otherwise. They are informed that these films are adults who agreed to get together and act out an action/adventure fantasy.

You seemed to have missed the entire point of my post explaining that education is the key, and not limiting pornography. I do not know anyone (and I know a lot of sexually exposed people including several who work in the field of prostitution) who thinks gang rape is appropriate. You must remember the danger of a correlational fallacy which is to assume that a violent sex crime was caused by rough or BDSM pornography simply because that pornography is available.

A better study would be to use two experimental groups and one control group. Allow one experimental group to watch pornography, then allow the second experimental group to watch pornography along with continuing sex education real world explanation, and finally deny the control group access to pornography. While I am not taking the time (though maybe I should) to find similar research because I no longer have access to my .edu journal stacks... I can say that I have a strong suspicion that experimental group number two would out perform either experimental group number one or the control group.

You seemed to miss the parts of my post where I discuss why I feel I have more to bring to the table than just a some guy "sitting back at a message board". Or, if you did read those parts, you chose to either not believe me or ignore it.

You also seemed fixate on the short comment I made at the beginning of my post in regards to gay porn (which made up about 25% or less of a very long post). My only question was, since so many assume that women in porn are victims then would they assume that bottoms in gay porn are victims? That is a valid question to bring up, because it makes them ask whether their opinion is based on that person's gender (or sex, since gender is not a biological term) or whether they have a problem, instead, in association victimization with the receiving sex role.

So please re-read my post, and look at all of the information provided, including why I feel I have credentials to speak up about this so you can step back and get the whole picture of what I am saying. My argument is that the solution lies not in limiting the pornography available, or sanitizing it, but in a society that needs to come out of the sexual closet (not the homosexual closet) in general. Just as we explain action movies to our kids we should explain pornography and sex acts.

Most of the people who argue against porn argue against it because they feel it is either immoral or sexist when in fact, most porn is neither.

For one final example although anecdotal, I've watched tons of bareback pornography, but at 27 years old I have never once had sex without a condom. Why is this? Because I had a sex-ed teacher who explained to me why safe sex is important, and also because I am a rational human being who realizes that what you see in pornographic films is a fantasy and not a reality.

There is a big difference between what happened to this girl and consensual BDSM sex. In PORN the sex is almost always consensual between both parties.

I have not seen a rash of porn in which the actress screamed "No, please stop, oh God, someone help me!" while the actor just kept on abusing and raping them. I am sure that such porn likely exists as there seems to be a minuscule amount of everything. I know that Robert Zicari a.k.a. Rob Black and his company Extreme Associates (co-owned by his wife Janet Romano) have produced such controversial videos. Though I have not seen those videos, if industry insiders are correct with what I have heard about them, then I would support a warning on the box saying "guess what, this is all fake. FAKE FAKE FAKE, and the actress in the film is actually the porn director's wife and helps write the scripts. Do not EVER do this to someone in real life!" BUT I would not support limiting his right to produce and distribute whatever kind of pornography he wants. His creation of that pornography is not what causes such tragedies to happen... it is the lack of rational commentary society provides for a small subset of Extreme Associates potential viewers.

The problem, again, isn't pornography, it's our failure to teach children the difference between sexual fantasy and sexual reality. That was the point of my post. The "gay" comment was merely to address any bias the person might have based on gender (or, again, sex to be more biological.)

We could have a long debate in a whole other topic on homosexuality and the porn industry. That would certainly be a long but rewarding discussion.

I wanted to edit this to include a statistic provided by another DUer:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4120676&mesg_id=4121390

[AngryAmish]

62. If porn has anything to do with rape, why has the rates of rape fallen 85% since the 70s

The stats are out there.

The internet got popular about ten years ago. Always there was porn on the internet. Always.

If rape had anything to do with porn then the rate would be spiking, no?

Yet it is not.

Why?

[sendero]

70. By that logic..

.. someone seeing a slasher movies can justify murder.

Fantasies are fantasies, murder or rape is something else.

[buffalowings]

57. virtual psychological studies

In a virtual world, watching abusive/torturous treatment of others can bring on a sense of okayness. One is not doing the actual crime but gets a virtual sense that they are, hence they are quilty perhaps even more so than ones prpetrating the crime. These dark pools of virtual reality are growing and parents need to be aware, as do all caring citizens, especially in regards to the training of their children as to some of the depravity that can be involved with virtual reality.

[musicblind]

60. What you said about "parents need to be aware... in regards to training their children"

is exactly my point. Thank you.

[TrogL]

67. Second Life finally got around to implementing an adult verification service

and moving most of the adult stuff to its own area.

[derby378]

43. If there's video on their cellphones, it's admissable evidence

And I hope it puts every one of those punks behind bars. As adults, not juvies.

[TrogL]

59. How'd porn get dragged into this? Gang rape far preceded film

Rape is perpetrated by people who consider sex a commodity that girls (and some boys) "put out". If someone feels they have paid for that commodity (dinner) and not received it, or that a freebie is available (looting) then they will do anything to get it.

Porn portrays sex as a commodity because the concept already existed before porn came along - otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. This turns porn itself into a commodity.

So, the bystanders?

1. In high school a small subset of authoritarians (the jocks) are treated as above the law. They are often the perpetrators of rapes. The "she did the entire football team" meme is often the truth and often not her idea. You risk your life confronting these people.
   
2. The people filming on their cell phones are collecting free porn.
   
3. Some few may be collecting evidence at their own risk (see above).
   
4. Witnesses and complainants are often treated badly by police. They are often subjected to the Reid Technique for no good reason. In a small town the police are corrupt, inept or the rapists are relatives.
   

[musicblind]

61. Your comment number 4 is sadly very, very, very true :( :( :( n/t

[JonQ]

82. I read somewhere

can't find it now, that access to porn has an inverse relationship with actual sexual abuse.

[JI7]

91. no, these guys are just scumbags, life in prison for all of them

[Deja Q]

65. And since the media hasn't anything to prove it's a worthwhile virtual-

Trouble is, how does one restore order?

[ThomCat]

34. Every Damned one of them is guilty to some degree

and should face some justice for this. :grr:

Damn it! Rape will continue to be an epidemic as long as men keep allowing it to be an epidemic. This is a prime example. Even the men and boys that didn't participate in it are guilty of enabling it, encouraging it by standing there and watching it and doing absolutely Nothing to help that girl.

I hope the memories of what they watched Haunt them for the rest of their lives. x(

[msongs]

2. hmm wait til the cell vids and text descriptions surface....entertainment for the boys nt

[WriteDown]

5. Anyone involved even in just taking a vid should be sent to jail...

for a long time.

[TheEuclideanOne]

7. Can they be arrested and charged?

You would think that they all should be. I don't know of the legal implications, but wouldn't it be similar to somebody being involved in shooting, but not pulling the trigger? The are considered just as guilty as they guy who fired the gun.

[newspeak]

12. It seems to me,

if you are standing around doing nothing to stop it, you are complicit. Of course, that's only my opinion.

[paulsby]

19. not under the law

in nearly all jurisdictions, you have NO criminal liability whatsoever in watching a crime\

you can stand and watch a guy slowly bleed to death and not call the police even.

perfectly legal almost everywhere

[Piewhacket]

47. true, but also in nearly all jurisdictions...

being anywhere in the vicinity is going to put them under
police suspicion, get them questioned about what they were doing,
why they didn't call or go for help, and put their life under a microscope,
which is one of the usual reasons people don't step forward with information
or cooperate with police. Also, Anyone who called police would be in deep trouble
no matter what. If the police didin't get you, the gangs would.

Because I figure we will find out this was a gang rape by a real gang.

But or being the victims date or friend, cheering, laughing, standing around
with a finger up the nose blocking the view, holding back, or threatening
would-be rescuers, calling over an idiot friend to watch the entertainment together,
obstructing the victim, however trivally, from escape,
and just plain hanging around is just likely to bring charges.
Not to mention the condemnation of society. Realize, anyone standing around
watching a gang rape, is not going to get either sympathy or the
benefit of a legal doubt.

So anyone sick enough to watch a gang rape without getting involved
should do so from the vantage point of the 6 o'clock news.

[chrisa]

25. They were probably all friends.

A.K.A gangster trash idiots who egged the people doing it on. They're all complicit.

[paulsby]

18. no no no

in almost all jurisdictions, there is no crime for WATCHING a crime and doing nothing.

you are walking down the street. you see a man bleeding heavily. you have a cell phone. you decide not to call 911 and just sit there and watch him die.

is it a crime?

no.

IF the onlookers participated by egging the rapists on, it is possible to charge them, but in general, watchign and/or doing nothing is not a crime

(some jurisdictions have misprision of a felony, but i digress)

[ThomCat]

35. I absolutely agree.

Anyone who doesn't immediately turn over their cell phone videos to the police should be turned over to the DA for prosecution.

Anyone who does turn over their video should still be held accountable by every woman they know for not using that cell phone to call the police!

[paulsby]

90. prosecution for what?

you can't prosecute unless a (wait for it...) crime has occurred

watching a crime is not a crime
taping it on your cell phone isn't either
if and when the police request the video, and you don't turn it over, that would be a crime - obstruction

[hypocrisyandlies]

3. Over 2 hours

and no one helped!?!?! No one did anything? I feel sick now. Not a good way to start the morning.

[ThomCat]

55. My roommate and I have been in tears over this.

I told her about this post, and the idea that people could be ENTERTAINED while this girl was brutalized is so sickening that we can't stop crying as we talked about this.

How could they be entertained by watching her attack?

How could her cries and sob be fun?

How could they possibly find it entertaining to watch her brutalized to the point that she needed to be put in intensive care?

:cry:

How can any of these people ever think of themselves as anything other than monsters after this? :grr:

I really hope the names of every boy and man in that crowd gets published, along with their pictures. Every damned one of them needs to be shamed for standing their entertained for up to two and half hours while this girl was brutalized. Their mothers and sister and girlfriends need to know what kind of boys and men they are.

[TwilightGardener]

6. Just sick. I'd call them animals, but don't want to malign animals.

So we'll just say sub-human.

[rfranklin]

8. Unfortunately, bad behavior is all too human...

but not what we want to hold up as an ideal.

[Cass]

9. Omg, she was flown to the hospital in critical condition.

15 people watched this girl be brutalized so badly for 2 hours that she had to be airlifted out of there in critical condition. This is horrifying.

Remember the movie Jodie Foster was in - 'The Accused'? It was about the prosecution of those who cheered and encouraged a rape even though they did not actually rape the woman. I think the same sort of prosecution is approriate in this case as well.

[WriteDown]

10. That is an excellent analogy. nt

[juno jones]

68. IIRC, The accused was based on another real-life incident,

which took plsce in the 70's or 80's in a Massachusetts bar... on a pool table.

[Tansy_Gold]

73. Sue Coe's "Rape, Bedford"

I used this to illustrate a presentation I gave in a class on "Women, Crime, and Justice." Two of the male students in the class objected to the drawing as "too graphic." I asked them what they thought of the act itself.



TG

[newspeak]

11. we just heard this on the news

Absolutely, unbelievably, SICK!!!!! The news said that it was a person at a party across town that heard it third hand and thought, even though it may be a hoax, that they would call the police to make sure. Can you imagine that? Kids standing around watching and doing not a damn thing to stop such an atrocity. Subhuman is correct!!!!

[slackmaster]

14. This happened on our watch

:(

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frank Cannon]

16. Thank you for playing

Nice attempt at a thread hijack, by the way.

Actually, rather than people drawing on each other, a very simple solution would have been a few CELL PHONE CALLS TO THE FREAKING POLICE DEPARTMENT.

[Realityhack]

64. +1 n/t

[enlightenment]

17. This isn't about guns.

Please don't try to shift the discussion to your pet project.

[TwilightGardener]

20. So...the fifteen year old should have been carrying a gun to the homecoming dance?

Or are you saying that someone should have introduced gunfire into the rape scene? This has little to do with guns, and more to do with boys taking advantage of a drunk girl and a mob "anything goes" atmosphere.

[tabatha]

21. Show me the gang rape that has occurred in Australia.

And I have never heard of guns being carried by schoolchildren.
And I have never heard the media being proponents for gun control

What a load of dishwater (polite word for crap) that you have spewed.

[Greyskye]

22. which medium is a trusted information source?

In your inimitable opinion?

[chrisa]

23. This post lacks common sense.

Why would a 15 year old be carrying a pistol? Even if she was, she was drinking to begin with, so she wouldn't have been able to use it properly.

Nobody who I would want carrying a gun was within the vicinity, because they would have called the police. Just gangster trash laughing at the suffering of another human being.

Gun-free zones are necessary. You don't want guns being carried in schools. This has nothing to do with ownership of guns.

Your post also contains too many logical fallacies to count. Gun-free zones aren't gun bans, so crime statistics from gun bans have nothing to do with gun-free zones. You can't compare the two, or call them the same like you're doing. I would not, repeat, would not want students encouraged to carry firearms. Your thinking is way too black and white (good vs. evil, 'those who want to do them harm,' etc.) and doesn't consider what possible situations could actually happen.

[musicblind]

48. The "statistics" he spoke of do not exsist. It has clearly been shown that gun deaths in England

and Canada as well as crime rates are far better than in America.

[dbmk]

27. And exactly..

..which of the involved in this case would you think to be the most likely to have carried guns?

We can't be winners, but thanks for playing.

[Greyskye]

32. BTW, Miss Charlie Kelsey...

Your name and listed gender appear to be at odds.

Just sayin'... :eyes:

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

37. you're higher than I am

What f**king garbage.

[eagertolearn]

44. OMG are you crazy enough to think that every student should be carrying a gun

to protect themselves? Oh yeah that will solve all these problems.

[Renew Deal]

79. Yes, if only we had armed a bunch of drunk teenagers, things would be different.

:rofl:

[garthranzz]

24. Long jail time for all - or even better, a public lashing

There's something to be said for corporal punishment in some instances. This is one of them.

And to #15 and the guns - don't be stupid. Oh, wait, you're a troll. Sorry, you have to be stupid.

[NoodleyAppendage]

26. This happened on school grounds at a school function. WHERE WERE THE ADULTS?

It's been many years since my prom, but I distinctly remember the place being heavily chaperoned and locked down like Ft. Knox. Where were the adults that were supervising the dance? The school has some hard questions to answer, IMHO.

J

[WriteDown]

28. I've been wondering that myself....

Been a LONG time since my prom, but I remember a ton of chaperones.

[musicblind]

49. You know what would be awful? Finding out one of the adults watched ...

given this world, and how little people care about each other (deep down when no one thinks they will be held accountable) it sadly wouldn't surprise me. I highly doubt this happened, but the fact that I could even think it for a second makes me :(

[TrogL]

72. Possibly *at* the school

The rape occured *near* the school.

[TrogL]

84. Update - the rape happened in a courtyard, near some benches

When I was teaching and we had after-school events, we checked around the outside of the school on a regular basis for trouble like this.

[Gator_Matt]

30. Makes me want Singapore's justice system

Eliminate this scum from society.

[screw-bipartisanship]

31. seriously?

i've been on this website for two days now and i have seen three gang rape posts. There seems to be something seriously wrong with our education system.

[ThomCat]

36. There is something seriously wrong with our society and culture.

Sexism and misogyny are so inherent that abuse and violence against women are epidemic. Geez, images of apparent rapes, gangbangs, and even women being blatantly murdered by men are commonly used in advertising to sell damned near everything because people find these shit sexy and attractive. We are surrounded by the ideas and images of abusing women until it becomes normal. :cry:

It is not just our education system. It is our Advertisers, our Religions, our Cultures, our Histories, and pretty much everything that we encounter day to day that delivers messages about what is right or what is normal. :(

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

38. I disagree: it isn't just "us" or "our culture"

Sexism, rape and violence are problems for all members of the human race, not just our culture. Believe it or not, there was widespread rape and violence before modern advertising.

In May 1182, over 80,000 people were executed by a mob in Byzantium; well before modern advertising and culture. The Sand Creek Massacre occured right here in CO in 1864, well before the advent of television. Try reading "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang sometime. These horrors are an inherent aspect of our primate heritage that must be overcome if we wish to evolve.

On edit: essentially, I believe you have put the cart before the horse. Violence and misogyny aren't caused by media, media reflects those aspects of the human condition because they are so ingrained. We love to kill: just look at what happens when a criminal is accused of murder or another terrible crime: once a good excuse is given people get quite bloodthirsty, no matter the level of evidence. I actually believe that is one reason we keep the death penalty around even though we constantly condemn the innocent -- it is a culturally acceptable way to appease bloodlust.

[musicblind]

52. You are right on about the death penalty

You can add in that we keep it around despite evidence showing it does not work as a deterrent for crime and costs a fortune as well.

[Deja Q]

66. 40 years ago, James Kirk said "We can admit we are killers. But we won't kill. Today." And today?

Shows freely exhibit people pretending to be teary-eyed as masses of people are slaughtered. Or other forms of nastiness. On a regular basis. Period.

The media has devolved. Or, at least, I don't recall much from the late-1960s that was cynical and mean-spirited compared to being optimistic. Apart from the nightly news and even then all they did was report. Without inflection, and without spin...

Media, religion, and other factors as ThomCat had said are correct. Ambient environment IS a factor.

"Lord of the Flies" -- good novel, I heartily recommend it...

Ironically, most people making the uber-nasty drivel probably watched what was made in the 1960s and clearly didn't learn from it, so maybe we're wrong after all... then again, showing morals vs being amoral -- even if society hasn't, its media HAS changed. And some of it was mindrot back then but it's shameful that yesterday's mindrot requires more intellectual acuity than today's mindrot...

[Frank Cannon]

71. "Yesterday's mindrot requires more intellectual acuity than today's mindrot"

Man, you are not kidding about that. I was watching an episode of "Daniel Boone" with my nephews the other day, and it was like Shakespeare compared to what's on prime time today. That was considered a kid's show in my day.

[screw-bipartisanship]

78. Well of course

Logically he's right but we are bombarded all the time with the thought to get older faster, which leads to masturbation faster, which leads to looking at pornography. Sex is quickly glorified and we want to HAVE sex and so we try to get it by force. Of course its a problem for everybody but in america were shown so many images about how great sex is before were ready. in general, however, TV isn't the issue, the issue is parents who aren't willing to tell their children whats really going on.

[musicblind]

51. This is not about women. This about PEOPLE

If someone would do this to a woman then they would do this to a man. They aren't doing this because they hate women, they are doing this because they have no respect for any human beings.

For example:

Below is a recent article in which 5 teens (led by a 15 year old) poured alcohol over another 15 year old boy (who had been so afraid of the bullies he'd stayed home from school that day) and they lit him on fire because the poor boy had reported them for stealing his father's bicycle. What is worse is that CNN reported the teenagers laughed about it to the sheriff's face while being interrogated and did not show remorse for having destroyed this boy. The boy they set on fire, Michael Brewer, has 2nd and 3rd degree burns on either 65 or 80% of his body (depending on which news source reports the story). He will be in the hospital's ICU for at least 5 months and will then have to undergo intensive rehabilitative therapy. He had his first skin graft surgery last week. What is worse are people who leave comments at the end of news articles making fun of this boy or saying "well he shouldn't have called the cops" ...

something is deeply wrong with our society right now (and I'm not one of those "old people" who look back on the past and imagine Hitler didn't exist or we didn't have mass racism or sexism.) But, unlike other times in our history, we are flat out of excuses, we have no more, we know better... we have the internet, education, and most everyone has plenty of real life experience with people of all race's and gender... yet these things like this happen not because of ignorance or status quo but because people just don't care. They enjoy watching someone else, not just women, suffer because their own lives are so sad and squashed that seeing anguish in another person is the only form of happiness they are able to get or understand.

Link: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/16/crimesider/entry5389645.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

People no longer have compassion for others and justify it by saying "they wouldn't have compassion for me" ...

[ThomCat]

56. I am not saying it's about women.

I'm saying it is about sexism and misogyny.

Saying that, well, people are inherently vicious, is correct but only to an extent. It draws attention away from the fact that women are disproportionately the target of violence, they are the easy target, and societies and cultures and religious insist that they be the targets.

Yes, men get targeted too. Anyone can be the target of vicious violence at any time. But men don't live with the constant threat the way women do. Men don't live in a world telling women and training women to be easy victims they way women do.

There is a base level of viciousness in humanity. You are certainly right about that. Sexism and misogyny points that viciousness at half of our population and amplifies it. :(

[musicblind]

63. Well I don't feel they did it because they are sexist

but because they are horrible people. Picking women because they are easier targets isn't sexism either. If other men were the easier targets then they'd pick them. This tragedy needs to be fixed, and in my opinion, the best way to do that is via education.

But, still, I sometimes wonder, people are so inherently evil... will there ever be a full solution to all of these ills? Possibly not. (doesn't mean we shouldn't try)

[bettyellen]

77. do you feel like they did it becaise they are men? because that is how it most often works out ....

we need to treat this socital illness becuase some dudes are out of fucking control

[musicblind]

83. Both genders are equally capabable of horrible things.

Psychology shows, and you learn this in basic college courses, that men and women are both equally vicious creatures. Men tend to be more physically abusive while women tend to be more mentally abusive.

I was reading an article the other day about a wife who drove her husband to attempt suicide via her vicious actions after their divorce. In my opinion, mental abuse is just as wrong as physical abuse. We should all attempt to provide an abuse free world for one another.

Pointing fingers at just one gender for societies aggression is not only unhelpful, but it is also ignorant.

[bettyellen]

88. since the topic here is physical agression, ponting fingers is totally accurate.. and your full of

it w/ this equivolency of mental= physical abuse. Mental abuse? men have the means an opportunity to walk the fuck away every time. People who are physically abused raped and murderered have nothing in commom with men who are verbally harrassed or nagged. Im shocked you;d even attempt to equate the two. What a joke.

[TrogL]

85. Some other men were easy targets - remember Matthew Shepard

[bettyellen]

89. I know, but my point is, it'smuch more rarely women who commit violence- against men or women

[juno jones]

69. Education system? How do you figure?

Yeah, I think it has to do with education, like educating men to keep it in their pants, but that sort of education falls on parents and other community leaders more than teachers. Teachers have enough on their plate and children are supposed to be potty-trained by the time they get them.

[bergie321]

40. If it was recorded

And the victim is underage, the people shooting the crime should be charged with producing child porn. IMHO

[Piewhacket]

41. This is beyond my ken... and I live in the county. God have mercy, I have none in me.

School dance + former students + drinking
according to what I'm hearing the girl went into an alley
(with someone?) to drink... goddamn stupid...
became incapacitated and may have passed out(?)...

animals... what else can they be called?

[2Design]

42. We teach violence on TV, in the military, on the streets, in games - this is a societal problem

we say it is ok to torture innocent people and just call them terriorist, we kill innocent people daily, we allow people to did for corporation profits (no health care) This is the result - no one cares

[bertman]

45. When I was growing up in the 60's there were frequent "gang bangs". This was when

a teenage girl would allow multiple guys to have sex with her, so it was not rape in the sense that she was forced into doing it. Nonetheless it was a group experience for lots of guys. I remember that one girl had sex for several hours with thirty or more guys and had to be hospitalized. She had simply advertised the fact that she was available and a bunch of guys thoughtlessly took advantage of her.

I remember at least four instances during my high school days when this happened. Three of the girls were from so-called "good families". The guys were from so-called "good families".

Even then, as a horny teenage boy (actually a virgin) I was disgusted by the idea of these gang bangs and refused to participate.

I guess my point here is that it is not a new phenomenon and less of a "parenting" issue than some might suspect. But, if it was rape, that is a different thing altogther.

Over the years I was friends with two of the girls in the incidents I mentioned. One continued to be free with her body, but the other told me that she deeply regretted what she had done in a moment of teenage stupidity.

Very sad and sickening.

[buffalowings]

74. parenting issue

Did you stay friends with any of the boys?

This is a parenting/educational issue, especially in regards to the possible depravity in the virtual world. Technology expands the crime, hiding many of those involved. The world is vastly different now than it was in the sixties, and parents have safety issues that need to be taught to their children in regards to technology, technology that was not in existence in the sixties. The world is not more evil, but has technology that can expand crime in ways not previously known. Just look at Wall Street and the hidden crimes there.

[bertman]

75. I'm sure I did stay friends with some of the boys who participated even though I was

disgusted by what they did. At the time, I gave some thought to the fact that I might be the weird one because I didn't want to participate. But it just seemed so callous that I could never imagine a scenario when I would want to be involved in it. Since the girls had given their permission for the guys to have sex with them I didn't see it as a crime or even anything that was wrong--just something I did not like. So there was no reason for me to abandon my friends who had taken part. As they grew older, I'm sure some of those guys realized that was not the right thing to do, but I haven't checked with them and haven't even seen them in decades.

The world I grew up in was a world where most parents did not talk to their kids about sex. Anglo-Saxon protestant church-goers were plenty uptight about sex and didn't take the time to educate their children--for the most part.

I'm sure you're right about the fact that there are many more ways for kids to be exposed to SERIOUSLY DEPRAVED sexual themes in the cyber world. Parental education is a MUST nowadays. You can't take anything for granted.

[Odin2005]

76. OMG, there are no words...

:cry:

[raccoon]

80. Oh, the 15 didn't want to RAT OUT their friends! :sarcasm: nt

[JonQ]

81. THose who participated need to go to jail for the rest of their lives

those who watched and did nothing need at the very least to have their names and pictures plastered on very light post, mailbox, etc in the area.

Something to the effect of "I cheered as a 15 year old was brutally gang raped".

[barb162]

86. "...as many as 15 people, ALL MALES, stood around...."

Why does this not surprise me? When I first heard about this, I was wondering about the composition of the group. I guess none of their cell phones were working, except for what, to take pictures of it all?

[CraftyGal]

87. I first heard about this when TrogL came home from work.

I agree it is not just about society or education or our culture or even bad parenting. It is hard to change what you don't acknowledge. If you come from a place where ex is shameful, or sex is used as a weapon that is how it will be treated.

Remember Rape is about power and control over another human being using that persons sexual responses. Getting them to lose control over there own body as it is ravaged by one or more people. That is where we hear the statement of "he/she like it" or "he/she wanted it" because even as the words and the actions were shouting "NO" the body was responding because that is how the body is built. Sex is a basic need as food and water. Our body automatically responds to when it is hungry, thirsty or aroused.

As a survivor of a sexual assault and domestic violence I understand this. In this instance, yes it was all males, however it has happened in mixed crowds. No one wants to step in for what ever reason. It is slowly changing for the better, and that is if we change it.

I can remember a couple of incidents.

1) I was on my way home from a parenting support group in Vancouver, BC. I lived in Surrey, which meant taking the skytrain home. I was at my train stop when I could hear some very loud arguing going on. A whole group of us wen tover to find an older gentleman and a teen girl fighting. All it took was to hear he is not my father and several of us pulle dout cell phones and called 911. We wouldn;t let anyone leave until the RCMP showed up. It turned out that the gentleman was in fact her step-father and she didn't want to go home. However we all erred on the side of caution.

2) I now live in Edmonton and my son and I were taking the LRT to go somewhere can't remember exactly where. We had walked to the stationa s it was a nice day. There was a woman who was struggling with a man at the door. My son and I went running. My son is not a very big boy and he got in the way of that man who had taken a swing at her. I was calling the police and videoing everything at she same time. Thankfully my phone had a camera. The police showed up and the guy was arrested. What shocked me was we got yelled at for intervening by the officer. My son said that if we hadn't who knows what would have happened. My son is a firm believer in fair play and justice.

3) I was again on the platform on the LRT waiting for the train, when all of a sudden on the far north of the platform I could hear some screaming. This guy was beating the crap out of this woman! There were only 2 others on the platform with me. The others took out cellphones and recorded the whole beating not one phoned the police. I had pulled out my cellphone and called 911, thankfully this had been recorded on the ETS security tapes. I ended up putting in two reports, one for ETS and one for EPS as to what had happened. He was arrested and because of the video and my statements he plead no contest on aggravated assault. I was able to give the description of the woman he assaulted and they were able to help her get to the hospital. She had managed to get on a train and get away from him.

So I think it is how do we look at the situation.

CraftyGal

[dogfacedboy]

92. This was perpetrated by sub-human savages. Period,

I don't want to hear about "culture", or "poverty", or "bad parenting", or " wayward teens who are victims of their environment", or any other line of BS! ANY defense of these worthless a-holes makes the defender an a-hole.
I grew up with a lot of people, myself included, who suffered the worst of any conditions I mentioned above, and none of them would have participated in such an atrocity. May they all become "currency" once they are in prison.

UN-EVOLVED SAVAGES!!!