To a Divisive Debate, Now Add Religion

[humbled_opinion]

Source: NY times

Should health insurance companies cover prayer as a legitimate medical expense?

The Christian Science church is seeking to insert a measure in the Senate’s health care legislation that would encourage private insurance companies to cover prayer and spiritual treatment of the sick, even though both the House and Senate turned down earlier versions.






Read more: http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/to-a-divisive-debate-now-add-religion/

---

OMG, I see the fundies are bringing out all the guns to try and derail Healtcare reform. I wonder if we must incorporate Church and State through tax payer funds how this is going to play out.

[Mz Pip]

1. Prayer costs money?

:wtf:

I thought anyone could pray for free. Or do you have to pay people to pray for the sick?

[humbled_opinion]

2. LOL...

So let me see I can go to hell if I don't pay to pray?

[pscot]

4. Why do you think they call it entitlement?

The prayer industry just wants to get theirs. It's the American way.

[Enthusiast]

25. Only if you do it right.

[cartach]

28. Catholics

have been paying the Church for prayers forever.

[trof]

29. Yeah, I don't get it either.

[Zhade]

51. More importantly, since double-blind studies prove prayer DOESN'T work...

...why is this even be considered (and I'm not even getting into how illegal it would be to pay for this with government funds)?

[stopbush]

3. Did you know that Sens. Kerry, Hatch and the late Teddy K are backing this?

It's all about the CSC having it's HQ in Boston.

[JanusAscending]

5. Do you have some documentation on that?

Like maybe a link?

[mascarax]

8. Link from L.A. Times - 11/3/09

www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-health-religion3-2009nov03,0,2239900.story

from the article:

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.

<snip>

It would have a minor effect on the overall cost of the bill -- Christian Science is a small church, and the prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day. But it has nevertheless stirred an intense controversy over the constitutional separation of church and state, and the possibility that other churches might seek reimbursements for so-called spiritual healing.

<snip>

The Internal Revenue Service allows the cost of the prayer sessions to be counted among itemized medical expenses for income tax purposes -- one of the only religious treatments explicitly identified as deductible by the IRS. Some federal medical insurance programs, including those for military families, also reimburse for prayer treatment.

[Bette Noir]

17. How about this-- when prayer is demonstrated in well-constructed,

double-blind studies published in peer-reviewed medical journals, to be more effective than a placebo, it can be reimbursed.

Of course, the double-blind part would be hard to manage. The practitioners would have to not know when they were really praying, and when they were only pretending to pray.

[progressoid]

37. Here ya go:

...The three-year Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), published in the April 4 American Heart Journal, was the largest-ever attempt to apply scientific methods to measure the influence of prayer on the well-being of another. It examined 1,800 patients undergoing heart-bypass surgery. On the eve of the operations, church groups began two weeks of praying for one set of patients. Each recipient had a praying contingent of about 70, none of whom knew the patient personally. The study found no differences in survival or complication rates compared with those who did not receive prayers. The only statistically significant blip appeared in a subgroup of patients who were prayed for and knew it. They experienced a higher rate of postsurgical heart arrhythmias (59 versus 52 percent of unaware subjects)...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=no-prayer-prescription

[hatrack]

39. Gosh, I would NEVER have guessed an outcome like this was even possible!!!!!

:silly:

[54anickel]

24. Well, maybe it's time to look ath the IRS code allowing this under medical expenses rather than

pointing to the tax code as somehow supportive of this provision. Let's look at those federal medical insurance programs while we're at it.

[progressoid]

36. "prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day" How much of that goes to Jebus?

[Joe Bacon]

48. Well, first you got to cover the Preacher's deductions!

Let's see--a thousand for his BMW car loan, a couple thousand for his mansion's mortgage payment, a couple hundred more for his designer suits and chains, another hundred for the pompadour, a couple hundred for his wife, and I'm sure there's a considerable chunk o change going in alimony to the ex wife and child support. Yep, it's HARD doin the LAWD's work, ain't it?

[benld74]

6. KEEP your RELIGION OUTTA OUT GOVMINT!!!!

[askeptic]

7. We already pay 'em for that - as in tax free

[Cass]

26. Great point! nt

[valerief]

9. Hogwash! Bullshit! Utter nonsense!!!! nt

[hayu_lol]

10. Medicine and medical treatment is one thing...

prayer and related mumbo-jumbo is quite another.

This is a Pandora's box.

Separation of church/state.

[valerief]

12. 100% agreement! nt

[Scruffy1]

30. Pay for prayer

My insane but lovable wife often prays for people in hospitals-especially those who are dying. The very thought of receiving money for this is disgusting. Christian Scientists are neither.

[customerserviceguy]

65. Agreed

but there are going to be similar arguments raised (possibly as amendments) when it comes to things I consider mumbo-jumbo, like chiropractors, naturopaths, and acupuncturists.

There are always "alternative" treatments that are not universally accepted as being within the standard range of treatment options.

[unabelladonna]

11. end the tax-free staus of churches, synagogues, mosques etc.

nt

[Grassy Knoll]

13. I would pay to pray if the religious right.....

promise to keep their dicks out of little boys, and in turn, you pay for the
mental care they will need when they become adults, and don't forget about Father Nunfucker.

[PinkoDonkey]

14. I've often wondered...

...why churches in the USA didn't get in the health insurance business. It is, it seems, a rather profitable enterprise.

Imagine what would happen if the Southern Baptist Convention offered a bare-bones health insurance plan to all church members? It seems to work well for groups like Hamas...

[nodehopper]

20. google Christian healthcare...

coop model, no reimbursement for "immoral" stuff.

[HughMoran]

15. This is stupid

just another distraction.

[Bette Noir]

16. I ain't payin' no taxes to pay no fraud to pray for me.

If anybody wants to pray for me, they can do it on their own dime. An' if they want to pay for each other, they can do it for free, or pay for it themselves.

[quakerboy]

23. Now, isn't that exactly their argument inversed?

I can just see certain idiots of past acquaintance saying "I ain't payin no taxes to pay no fraud to Science me".

[Bette Noir]

35. Construct a double-blind study that demonstrates prayer to be

more effective than a placebo, and we'll talk.

[quakerboy]

46. Sorry. I am not claiming they are right

I am claiming they are idiots. I appologize for not making that clear enough. I just found your statement interesting.

[boppers]

18. Cue the Scientologists...

"The church’s provision says that any insurer offering health insurance on the exchanges that would be created in the health legislation could not discriminate against a health service “on the basis of its religious or spiritual content.”"

Introspection rundowns, Purifs, the whole slew of for-pay woo woo silliness.... yeah.

[laconicsax]

19. Remember Kara Neumann.

Murdered by prayer. http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/29556929.html

[AtheistCrusader]

21. Man oh man, the right wing just loves killing people.

First let's oppose health care, and when that fails, let's stuff in some shit that kills people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1

Limbaugh, I'm praying for you so hard right now

[pundaint]

22. Fact is, prayer is effective, but this is what we get when Health Insurance Reform

becomes Health Care Reform. Maybe the two concepts can be separated, and be addressed separately. Insurance first, because that's the part that's killing Americans most.

[SkyDaddy7]

27. "Fact is, prayer is effective"

What exactly is prayer effective in doing?

[hayu_lol]

31. When I stop to think of all the kids with treatable diseases who...

have died during or after prayer treatments, perhaps it is time to sue the practitioners of prayer medicine for malpractice.

Leaders of healing prayercircles should be required to be licensed by the states.

The IRS should be allowed to watch their books and take action when appropriate.

Here in Oregon, we seem to lose at least one kid a year to this sort of thing. Normally treatable diseases/injuries could have saved these lives. Other areas may be worse.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

34. We have a family here that's let two of their children die from treatable illnesses.

Excerpt:
The Nixons, members of a tiny sect called the Faith Tabernacle Congregation, had refused to call a doctor on both occasions, convinced that all disease comes from the devil and that only God can cure illness. Charles Nixon, the dead children's grandfather and the pastor of Altoona's 140-member Faith Tabernacle congregation, clarified the sect's tenet: "We do not believe in 'faith healing.' We believe in 'divine healing' through Jesus Christ."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,986276,00.html#ixzz0YuQPS0OI


Another link to the deaths: http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/breed03.htm

They took it the whole way to the SCOTUS but they refused to hear the case.

[SkyDaddy7]

45. Was anyone prosecuted?

[Altoid_Cyclist]

54. My fault, I forgot to include that info.

The parents both were convicted and received prison terms.


Excerpt of story in Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

Prayerful parents in prison for death

Friday, June 01, 2001

By Tom Gibb, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
HOLLIDAYSBURG, Pa. -- Dennis and Lorie Nixon went to prison yesterday, convicted of letting their teen-age daughter die, giving her prayers when the law said they should have gotten her medical help.

It is the start of a 2 1/2-to-five-year prison sentence, and it's a day that prosecutors asked for but that nobody really relished.

Here were the parents of a big, mannerly, tight-laced family -- easy-going folks who worked hard, shunned television and lived from the Bible -- and now, they were going to state prison.

At home, the Nixons leave 10 children, with two of them in their 20s tending a clutch ages 3 to 17.

Rest of article.

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010601faith5.asp

[SkyDaddy7]

55. Good to know they went to prison...

However, they got off really easy for killing their daughter. It is scary to see how many children these people have and how they warp their minds from birth. Girls are taught they exist for nothing other than having children and hous work.

That would be fine except these people do not keep to themselves they are trying to force their Bronze Age views on all of us. SCARY!

[Altoid_Cyclist]

56. Very astute analysis.

My wife worked with one of the older daughters in a retail position.
My wife said that the girl was nice enough but that she seemed to be like a Stepford child. Showed almost no emotion and just sort of seemed like she couldn't think for herself as if she could only do what she was told to do and not question anything.

I hate to sound cruel, but I can't help but wonder if they would call an Ambulance if the father had a heart attack or was injured on the job or if they would let their prayers save him from the Devil.

[SkyDaddy7]

58. Its not sounding cruel...

It is scary what religion does to folks minds...These people groom the children to be drones in way. even some of what we call moderates teach their children that evolution is lie and gays are an abomination or just perverts. We as a society allow this to happen out of fear of being called an angry atheist if you publicly object. Pure madness!

[Altoid_Cyclist]

60. You must know my B-I-L.

On Thanksgiving he told me that he considers himself a "Moderate".

So... by extrapolation, Moderates want to kill abortion providers, the GLBT community should all die also, we should nuke all Arab and Muslim people, the US is in its' rights to invade any country and take whatever it wants, Pres. Obama is a baby killer, it's alright for people to cheat people who aren't as smart as the ones doing the cheating... these are just some of his observations as a confessed Moderate.

And yet, I'm the bad seed at all of the in-law gatherings because I'm an (Oh the Horror!!) Atheist.

It's a good thing that you need a larger set of facts to form an extrapolation than the thoughts of one person, but my fear is that you're right and there are other so called "Moderates" that would agree with my BIL.

I dread to think what the Ultra-Conservatives must be like.

[SkyDaddy7]

64. I know several so-called moderates...

And they basically say the same thing you described. It is scary to think that in 1994 only 41% of Americans thought Evolution was a lie...Now 63% think that! We have gone backward and I do not think it is just a coincidence that this slide happened during the right rule we were under during that time period!

The line between so-called moderate Christians and hard line fundamentalist is one big blur!

[SkyDaddy7]

43. I know!

It is sad that we still act like magic & make believe is OK and normal.

We should be able to say these "faith healers" are fakes! However, if you say that then you will be labeled an "angry atheist".

[mudplanet]

33. Maybe in making the "prayor" feel better?

And that, in itself, is ok.

But look for a lot of bullshit, completely made up, from the christian taliban to the effect that "prayer is scientifically proven to be effective in ..."

[SkyDaddy7]

42. Exactly!

I get so tired of listening to people openly talk about magic & make believe as if it is real! The so-called moderate Christians are just making it OK for the nut jobs to operate in the norm within society.

[Joe Bacon]

47. Prayer sure didn't help my Dad get his fingers back!

Dad's right arm was crushed in an accident and he lost two of his fingers. My aunt kept harping on him to go to healing services and Jesus would restore his fingers. She scolded me for not having a strong enough faith for him. Well, Dad never did get his fingers back, but unlike my aunt, he never fell for that bullshit.

[SkyDaddy7]

50. I honestly want to feel sorry for folks who believe stuff like that...

However, many of the folks who believe in Bronze Age Myths want to force it on everyone...They want to teach kids Intelligent Design and to not trust science, treat women like property, openly hate GLTB, halt medical research and basically pull America down into a Dark Age where religion rules.

[Zhade]

52. Uh, nooooooooooo. Studies prove it IS NOT effective. At all.

Look upthread. You are flat-out wrong.

[Arugula Latte]

57. Prayer is as effective as spitting in the wind.

Scientific studies have shown it doesn't change outcomes.

[redwitch]

61. "God helps those who help themselves".

My mother was fond of saying that.

I am reminded of the story of the man who prayed really, really hard that the rain would stop. It didn't. A neighbor came by and said "Joe ya better leave now, radio says the river will flood. I got the van, let's go". "Nope", says Joe, the Lord won't let the river flood if I pray hard enough". The neighbor left, the rains kept coming and soon Joe was on the second floor of his house, still praying. The Coast Guard came by in a row boat and said, "Come on Joe, it's unstoppable, you have to come with me now". "Nope, says Joe, "I'm praying and God will save me". Finally Joe is on his roof, still praying when the National Guard flies over in a rescue helicopter. "We're lowering a ladder mister, climb up and we'll take you to safety". "Nope" says Joe, still praying fiercely. The flood soon takes the house and Joe with it. He finds himself standing at the pearly gates and when he sees God he cries out "Lord, I prayed to you, why didn't you help?" God replied, "Joe I sent you the weather report, a van, the Coast Guard and a helicopter, why didn't you listen when I answered? Humans are so frustrating!"

[Tracer]

32. Prayer is just a form of wishful thinking.

People can wish for all kinds of things, a return to health for a friend or family member for instance.

But to pay people for their good wishes? That's ridiculous.

[earcandle]

38. no way. prayers are the dreams of the wanna bees....

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

40. Abomination

[redwitch]

41. My friend died because they prayed for her.

Instead of getting her the chemo she needed for breast cancer. That was bad enough. Her kids had no idea what she died of because CS doesn't talk about sickness. They also didn't let friends visit her. Her husband got pain meds and gave them to her when her parents and prayer practitioners weren't around. She was in her middle forties and I believe she died because of her stupid religion.
Someone finally told her daughters that they should get mammograms. CS is bullshit.

[Zhade]

53. I am so sorry. : (

And people say religion is harmless...!

[and-justice-for-all]

44. how absurd...nt

[ArbustoBuster]

49. There are two things wrong with the idea of paying for prayer.

1) Prayer is free. You say, "Oh great sky whatever, please heal me of this amputated arm," and the arm heals good as new. I think that unicorns are involved somehow, but I'm not sure. However, it's definitely free.

2) By paying for something that is demonstrably useless (double-blind scientific tests have shown that prayer is useless), you will cause even more felons, charlatans, and grifters to start offering "prayer services" for a fee.

[jtylerpittman]

59. what a joke

in the name of christ be healed. What are they going to do cast demons

[MineralMan]

63. I tried casting some Demons, last time I was at the lake,

but I didn't catch anything. So, I switched to casting Daredvls, instead. Worked a treat.

[DebbieCDC]

62. Right -- let's cover prayer but not abortion

makes sense