NYT: Blow to Bush: Ally Rejected

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/15/international/europe/15POLI.html

The ouster of the center-right party in Spain, only days after a terrorist bombing that may be linked to Al Qaeda, is the first electoral rebuke of one of President Bush's most steadfast allies in the Iraq war.

When France and Germany balked a year ago at supporting the war on Iraq, the Spanish prime minister, José María Aznar, stood publicly by Mr. Bush at a summit meeting in the Azores a year ago this week, and just days before the war began. Now voters have elected the opposition Socialists, although the center right was leading in the polls until the terrorist attack.

The Bush administration must now fight the perception, accurate or not, that acts of terror against America's allies can sway nations into rethinking the wisdom of standing too closely with Mr. Bush.

Time after time, President Bush has responded to critics who say he has alienated America's closest allies by pointing to Mr. Aznar as a courageous example of a leader who ignored poll numbers — 90 percent of Spaniards opposed the war — and who acted in Spain's best interests.

Only last week several senior members of the administration said they fully expected that his conservatives would emerge victorious. In fact, months ago a senior adviser to Mr. Bush predicted that should a terrorist attack occur in Europe, it would probably drive the Europeans closer to the United States and its approach to the campaign against terror, not away from it.

[acmavm]

1. Goes to show you how really stupid these people are:

Only last week several senior members of the administration said they fully expected that his conservatives would emerge victorious. In fact, months ago a senior adviser to Mr. Bush predicted that should a terrorist attack occur in Europe, it would probably drive the Europeans closer to the United States and its approach to the campaign against terror, not away from it.

Well all I can say to george and his looney tune administration is SURPRISE.

[Joanne98]

6. Really stupid

The "rally around the flag effect" goes into reverse. BOOM!! I can just FEEL the sweating in the WH.:)

[leesa]

56. And isn't it funny how a "terrorist" attack just happened...just like that

On the eve of an election. I guess Bush's thugs miscalculated the effect yet again.

[keithyboy]

79. The leaders of the nations are deaf to the cries of their people!

So much for democracy. How do we expect to sell democracy around the world when others can see that the heads of so-called western democracies continue to defy the will of their people and engage in wars and military build-ups that deny life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to their own citizens. Japan, S. Korea may be next on the list. these are nations whose people joined in the world-wide protests against the invasion of Iraq. The leaders keep sayin that the people don't really understand what is at stake but I believe that the people understand fully. they certainly understand that countries should leave other countries alone and that the hypocrisisy that has plagued the ME situation is causing irreputable insability and damage across the world. The west continues to call it a war against civilization when the people with the oldest "civilizations" are the ones trying to make their voices heard. When they see that all the west seems to care about is control of the resources in the world to feed their consumption and that they really don't care a hoot about "democracy" what do we expect. They are not stupid as many in the US are about the fact that for years the US and other western nations armed and dealth with Saddam when it suited their purposes all the while that the people were suffering. For us to pretned that Saddam was or is the most evil man to lead a nation is the height of hypocrisy when we were complicit in his remaining in power and using such brutality until the PNACers decided that we could take the country and control the oil for ourselves without Saddam.

It ain't over folks...by a long shot. Catching Osama at this point is a moot issue.

[rooboy]

2. I believe that the swing toward the opposition happened...

because some people believe that their government is capable of LIHOP, and lots more believe that the politicians don't give a shit about their safety beyond getting a person's vote.

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. Gee...almost sounds like the attack

was a test run.

[goforit]

11. Bingo!!!

Hmmmmm......

I wonder where their next step will be?

[radfringe]

44. next step?

bush* Inc. will begin by hinting that Spain's elections were not legit

[devinsgram]

54. Exactly, they certainly would know

Wouldn't they, since they are the best at stealing elections.

[RamboLiberal]

16. Attack was a test run

We think alike. The same thought crossed my mind that day.

Wonder if it's being rethought?

[SKKY]

27. Great minds do think alike...

Although I don't know if you could call this a "test run" so-to-speak. The second train (The one that blew up just outside of Atocha) had a much bigger bomb located in the front car, timed to go off 16:30 seconds later than the rest so as to kill as many rescue workers as possible. It's been speculated in the Spanish press that that bomb alone could have brought down the entire station and killed thousands. If this is a test run, what the hell is the real thing going to be like?

[dennis4868]

60. like 911?

:-(

[Tuttle]

51. Anyone ever see 'Brazil'?

I strongly recommend that you rent it (or buy it). Excellent film for our troubled times!

Tut-tut

[PassingFair]

92. Love it, Mr. Buttle!

One of my all-time favorites.
My complications had complications.....

[UpInArms]

4. how odd that there just happened to be a terrorist attack

at the "designated" moment in order to support the radical rightwing nutcases that think they can take over the world with their insanity

Only last week several senior members of the administration said they fully expected that his conservatives would emerge victorious. In fact, months ago a senior adviser to Mr. Bush predicted that should a terrorist attack occur in Europe, it would probably drive the Europeans closer to the United States and its approach to the campaign against terror, not away from it.

something smells mighty bad in this

[schultzee]

20. Spain has honest elections. The People really spoke.

[Zhade]

45. Agreed. I don't think the poster was implying they didn't.

I think (if I read it right) that the intimation is that maybe someone who favored Anzar's party intended the attack to benefit the rightwingers in the Spanish government. Ya dig? ;)

[okieinpain]

38. did they really leave calling cards in the bag or was it just

a cell phone. I'm curious about that one. if they left call cards, that's tlike finding atta's passport at the wreakage.

[madrchsod]

5. this also crips the

shit out of bush`s plans for central and south america. spain will align itself even futher with castro and chavez....poor georgie, the world just doesn`t play fair....

[Joanne98]

7. Good thing for Chavez he was next on their list

And those fascist Cuban exiles in Miami are probably crying themselves to sleep tonight. haha

[keithyboy]

80. I, for one, hope they can't sleep!

The media and the Bushites would have us believe that the majority of the Venezuelans are against Chavez when in fact it is just the wealthy oligarchies that are against him...just like it was in when Castro came to power.

[Arugula Latte]

72. What Bush needs

is a Supreme Court for the WHOLE WORLD that will make things go his way every single time.

[goforit]

8. Cheney/Bush parading on terror to bolster their campaign is...SICK!

Only the real pathological killers would be
heartless enough to use terror to profit in politics.

Their Wag the Dog strategies are getting old!

[billbuckhead]

10. Check out Zapateros homepage. Can someone translate?

<http://www.zapateropresidente.com/>

[The Zanti Regent]

12. Rough translation from his page

I mean first of all that the general selections of today are a tribute
that all the Spaniards we dedicated to the victims of the terrorist
attack in Madrid, and all we have voted thinking about them and we
will always continue it doing throughout the night and. In these
selections there has been a high participation and the participation
discharge is always a reason for joy. The civic answer of the
Spaniards in the streets has had today its prolongation in the ballot
boxes. The Spaniards we have responded to the domination of the
terrorists, and the general climate of tranquillity in which this
electoral day has been developed is a sample of democratic firmness.
The provisional data have to take themselves with provisional
estimations because the results will not be known until the scrutiny
is in its final phase. It is certain that the first data serve to see
tendencies but does not stop to give the results. The first surveys
indicate that the PSOE can obtain a good electoral result but any
other valuation would be premature. It has said that this is a
democratic but nonfestive day, and with that spirit we must confront
the electoral day, and has announced another appearance hers to give
results within a pair of hours.

[salinen]

9. Dear President McCokespoon

Thank you for being personally responsible for ousting the RW of Spain. Guess the honeymoon in the Azores with Assnar and Poodle boy didn't work out to well. Oh, and BTW, for a second opinion, your mother is a sack of shit.

[ConcernedCanuk]

13. no suprize here - heck, even US allies on the same CONTINENT

.
.
.

divorced themselves from Junior and his warmongers a long time ago . .

The USA's image in the world started a downward spiral after the first bomb fell on Baghdad,

started a freefall when the WMD's didn't show up in Iraq,

and now it's getting close to and Election ?

Bush's popularity is pulling into a full-power nosedive !

and we're just about ready to fire up the afterburners !!

:bounce: . .:bounce: . .:bounce: . .:bounce: . .:bounce: . .:bounce: . .:bounce:

! bye goergieboy !

[TanMeKangaroo]

14. Congrats Spain

Maybe now we can get some socialist influence here in America.

[rumguy]

15. Democrats have what it takes to defeat Al Queda

not that terrorist enabler Bush*...

[joeunderdog]

87. Rush's panties were in a bunch today. It was hilarious.

"Nurse! Nurse! Hand me my pillbox!"

He was incredibly defensive about the idea that people will think that the bombing in Spain was an indictment against our let's-bomb-them-into-submission anti-terror policy. He was absolutely panicked.

"Don't worry folks...bustin' heads for world peace is still the way to go. Negotiation's for pussies. Talk is cheap. I should know. Vote Bush and we'll kick some ass!"

LMFAO!!!

[rumguy]

19. scurred huh?

[kodi]

17. what a feeble attempt to confuse the issues

terrorism had nothing to do with iraq.

it was the policies of the busheviks of invading iraq that took away resources from the war on terrorism.

the spanish people understand that and want a redirection of their resources from the iraqi fight.

they recognize that they have wasted their men and money on a bushevik personal crusade in iraq that left them vunerable to the real threat that killed hundreds of their countrymen and women.

[DoNotRefill]

18. Hate to rain on people's parade, but this is bad news all around...

First, for Spain. How? Because in the past, ETA has tried to minimize civilian casualties. Now they have a very graphic lesson that minimizing civilian casualties doesn't work, and maximizing civilian casualties DOES work. I'd expect that ETA will become more violent, and will being trying to maximize civilian casualties in the future.

For places like England, same deal. Terrorist of ALL stripes just got a very pointed lesson that killing lots of people can make the governments fold. If it doesn't make the government fold, it'll help to change the government.

Finally, for the US. If Al Queda DOES attack the US right before the election, do you REALLY think it will make the American people vote for Kerry? I don't. I think the electorate will look for the biggest Hawk they can find. They'll be looking for somebody to go out and kill as many terrorists as possible, and will be a LOT less squeamish about "collateral damage".

I hope I'm wrong. I don't think I am.

[NNN0LHI]

22. Are you suggesting that if Bush fails to protect this country again...

...that will make people like him that much more? I have a hard time believing that. The true cool-aid drinkers might feel that way? But I am not so sure about the rest though.

Don

[DoNotRefill]

28. There's nothing ANYBODY can do to prevent a terrorist attack.

It's a simple impossibility unless there's a secret police force and informant system like the old Stasi in East Germany. Even so, that STILL isn't proof against an attack by either a single actor or outside forces. Even when the old Soviet Union was at the height of it's police state, there were still people smuggling drugs into the country. If they can do it with drugs, they can do it with bombs. Hell, remember the teenager who flew his small single-engine plane from Germany to the Kremlin and managed to land in Red Square? That was at the HEIGHT of the Cold War, and he flew across a bunch of police states to do it, and they STILL didn't intercept him until he had landed safely.

If, God forbid, there's another terrorist attack in the US, I'd expect the general population to be highly pissed off, and vote for the "man of immediate action", even if it's the wrong action, rather than Kerry, who is an avowed Internationalist and believes in working through the UN. Which do you think the American people prefer, somebody who thinks he's an old-west cowboy sheriff and is eager to "plug" anything that moves, or somebody rational who will consider actions carefully before acting? Maybe you have more confidence in the sanity of the American masses than I do...but I remember how the evening of 9/11 my coworkers and I heard reports of explosions in Kabul, and their take was that they thought Bush was already bombing the people he thought were responsible. They were FOR it. Turns out, of course, that it wasn't tomahawks falling, but rockets from the Northern Alliance. (is it just me, or does the "Northern Alliance" sound like something from an old BSG rerun?)

[sendero]

53. >>There's nothing ANYBODY can do to prevent a terrorist attack.

I pretty much agree with that, but the Bush* administration has been selling for 3 years that it can.

God knows that if it wanted to prevent another terra attack it is certainly NOT doing the things that would do so, but many people are just not paying attention.

But, since Iraq has been proven to have been no threat at all, people are likely to jump to a conclusion that the Bush* regime does not like and did not anticipate should another major attack occur on our soil.

[Just Me]

59. Exactly, his warring is inciting MORE terror instead of defeating it.

His war against Iraq was not terror related,...he simply perpetuated the fear caused by 9/11 in order to pursue an ideological agenda which benefits only his handful of arrogant despots.

The Spaniards basically proved that they will NOT be ruled by fear and that they will NOT continue on the wrong path that Bush has plowed for the US and the world.

Moreover, even if it is revealed that the horrendous incident was in fact organized by al Qaeda, reason dictates that it was done to further incite the country and the world into its insane jihad as opposed to what the Republicans are asserting which is that the jihadists seek to influence elections such that "appeasers" will replace "aggressors". I find that assertion ridiculous considering the aim of al Qaeda to incite a world-wide holy war.

[DoNotRefill]

78. It's not just Bush....

EVERYBODY is selling a "get tough on terror" bill.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/homeland/

[redqueen]

71. Um, didn't we stop a couple under Clinton's watch?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that we had.

Which would make this post demonstratably false.

[DoNotRefill]

76. Two incidents:

The first WTC bombing and OKC.

We can stop some. We can't stop all.

[markses]

23. Not sure about the assumptions you make here

Now they have a very graphic lesson that minimizing civilian casualties doesn't work, and maximizing civilian casualties DOES work.

When you say "DOES work," you assume that whoever planned and executed this attack was hoping for the election outcome that we saw today. Not only is there no evidence of this, the more reasonable argument points to the opposite. If the train bombers were rational actors, then they would be attentive to precedent. All recent precedent shows populations turning more rather than less conservative in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist strike (US, Australia, Israel) - your third point itself operates on this version of precedent. For this reason, we can infer the terrorists intentions as a landslide victory for the PP, not a loss. Taken this way, the notion that the attacks DID WORK falls apart. You assume, in other words, that the terrorists wanted the government to fall or change. That doesn't really make sense given the precedent, and at the very least is not borne out by any evidence whatsoever. The more rational inference - even lacking evidence - is that the attacks DID NOT WORK. Instead, they failed rather dramatically.

[DoNotRefill]

31. Depends on how you look at it.

As soon as I heard about the bombing, I had a very good idea how the election would turn out. I was right, though I thought the Socialists would pick up more seats than they did. The timing didn't leave ANY room for real reflection, and there was a predictable kneejerk response from the voters.

People in different countries can react differently. But I recall several instances where quasi-terrorist attacks (generally carried out by lone gunmen) have caused people in various nations to abandon long-held civil liberties in response.

It remains to be seen what the new Spanish government will do. But I can't imagine that they will be TOUGHER on terrorism than the old government, since I don't think the old government "missed any tricks" to combat terrorism. Would you care to wager if there will still be Spanish peacekeepers in Iraq in 6 months? I think there will not be, and that will qualify as a definite "win" for AQ. They will truthfully be able to say that they made Spain back off.

[markses]

50. Well, not really

That you might have predicted the way the vote would turnout isn't the same thing as saying that a reasonable actor would expect the vote to turn out that way. In fact, one had every reason to believe it would go the other way (a PP lanslide) and not this way.

Here's the second point: What you consider "TOUGHER on terrorism" I consider WEAKER on al-Qaeda. Peacekeepers in Iraq? That ain't tougher on terrorism, friend. That's friendly on US foreign domination, while at the same time managing to be NOT TOUGH ON TERRORISM AT ALL. al-Qaeda could very much have wanted the PP to stay in power in order to prolong the Iraq farce, which is surely a boon to them in recruiting and finance.

[DoNotRefill]

91. Ummm....

Saying that Al Queda wants the US to stay in Iraq is like saying the Viet Cong wanted the US to stay in Viet Nam.

Sure, it helps their recruiting on a small scale, but there's NO substitute for victory, and driving the US out of Iraq would be a HUGE victory for Al Queda, as long as they're seen as taking credit for it.

Al Queda wants the US out of the Middle East, so that they can continue to solidify their base by installing fundamentalist Islamic governments. Once they do that, they'll export fundamentalist Islam to the rest of the world. Somewhere along the way, I'm sure they'll stop to make sure they annihilate Israel.

[kodi]

24. your premise makes no sense.

the govt in spain fell not because the spanish people are appeasing terrorism, but because they felt that the manner in which their prior govt had been fighting it was wrong; actually, not fighting it by instead wasting their resources on a futile crusade in iraq.

had the bush adminstration and its "coalition of the inconsequental" used their intelligence resources and military forces to root out terrorism instead of another crusade of the house of bush, al quada would be even more scattered and less effective than it is today.

instead, the west squandered time, money and manpower against a country that would never have bombed anyone west of the tigris river.

if another act of al quada terrorism hits the US the first question is what the hell are we doing attacking a country 8,000 miles away that has not attacked us nor has threratened us instead of going after terrorists who have already attacked us.

[DoNotRefill]

33. We shall see...

"if another act of al quada terrorism hits the US the first question is what the hell are we doing attacking a country 8,000 miles away that has not attacked us nor has threratened us instead of going after terrorists who have already attacked us." (sic)

And where would we go to fight them? Would we occupy Saudi Arabia? Bomb Iran? Invade Chechnya?

Give the Devil his due. I don't know if there was an Al Queda presence in Iraq before we invaded. I DO know that there is an Al Queda presence there now, and we're fighting them, and some of them are being killed or captured by US forces. In effect, Iraq has become a baited trap for Al Queda operatives, with our troops as the bait. They blow up our troops, our troops shoot them, that's as close to a fair fight as can be fought against terrorists. You're also overlooking the fact that the US military is generally prohibited from engaging in police duties in the US proper, unless martial law has been declared.

[Malva Zebrina]

48. People have bought an impossible meme

when the Bush team invented the "war on terrorism"--it makes ya feel good perhaps. It conjurs up images of brave American fighting men and women , crusader costumes on, wielding swords against the infidel bringing terrorists to justice (killing them)

There can be no such thing as a "war on terrorism" in the sense that it is being sold to the American people by Bush's PR language people. It cannot be "won" for there is no way anyone can tell if it is won and it cannot be lost-attacks will continue. Additionally it lends itself to all sorts of cognitive abuse--ie we will be "fighting this war" for a long long time.Saddam is a terrorist. You are "with us or against us". We will smoke em out--swarthy looking men lurking around airports in Bush's ads and generally a frightened, hysterical populace believing this "war" actually exists in the commonly used sense of the word and that we will "win" it. Connections to Al Queda have conveninetly been attached to the Spain attack--

And so, in order to get a band of some maybe 200 terrorists, of course, that means Al Queda, although there are others, which are thought to be in Iraq (no one really knows)we can justify bombing the shit out of Bagdhad, and killing ten thousand of it's citizens--with a lie. But we gotta git em them terrorists--over and over and over we are told we gotta git em and they are now in Iraq. So it's OK and fine what we did to that country and it's people because it led us to Al Queda. I don't think so. Al Queda was not operating in Iraq before Bush invaded, killed the leaders and is now going to convert them to Christianity as Coulter recommended.

Oh the humanity

[DoNotRefill]

82. Al Queda....

has several thousand members, not 200. And we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Saddam DID shelter at least SOME terrorists. How do we know this, without relying on things the Bushies have said? 1. The head of Abu Nidal was sheltered in Baghdad. Tariq Aziz held a press conference about his death, after he started plotting against Saddam and was killed by the Iraqi secret police, but well before the invasion. This didn't come from the Bushes, it came from the proverbial horse's mouth. Secondly, there was a thread on here not long ago about part of the PLO denouncing the death of the guy who ran the Achilles Lauro hijacking while in US custody. THEY said he had been captured by US forces in Iraq. Unless Tariq Aziz was a US mouthpiece when working for Saddam, and unless the PLO is a US mouthpiece, there WERE terrorists being sheltered in Iraq. Both Aziz and the PLO were/are on the opposite side from the Bush administration, and they admit this.

Bush's WMD claims were bogus. But it's not debatable that there WERE terrorists being sheltered in Iraq. There's confirmation from sources which have an interest in saying that there weren't. If Saddam were to be tried in an impartial (ie third party, not the US or Iraqi systems) court on the charge of harboring terrorists who were responsible for killing a US citizen (Leon Klinghoffer), there's NO doubt in my mind that he WOULD be convicted.

[kodi]

63. to answer your rhetorical question: we fight them where we can

but that was primarily in afghanistan, not iraq.

and in afghanistan we did it with one arm tied behind our backs once bush decided to invade iraq.

that is the point. we diluted our efforts to oppose the real enemy and now have less resources to engage al quada elsewhere.

i do not believe that al quada is the primary source of guerrilla warfare personnel or attacks in iraq and had we not gone there they wouldn't be there either.

its quite a bizarre idea to intice al quada into actions in iraq as an effort to draw them out of their caves so as to crush them on a "battlefield" that is advantageous to us. bizarre two ways, one because they are not stupid enough to marshall all their forces there and fight on a battlefield on which their opponent has superior forces, and second, they will still be focusing primarily on terrorism elsehwere and the use of overwhelming numbers of US forces in iraq to capture al quada there is a poor allocation of our resources in this world-wide fight.

in fact, were i bin laden, i would be doing exactly what al quada is doing, viz., baitng the americans in iraq by showing some presence there so as to draw off american resources elswhere to dilute their efforts against al quada world-wide.

these folks may well be crazy, but they are far from stupid.

[SKKY]

89. And Iran does fund them quite well, don't they?

[kodi]

90. as does America's great friend, the House of Saud

shall we go and invade there too?

but are you completely unaware of the historical schism in islam? the bin laden al quada are composed of sunni muslims, and the iranians are shiite muslims. there is greater emnity between them than either has with non-muslims.

[fortyfeetunder]

32. You do have a point....

"Finally, for the US. If Al Queda DOES attack the US right before the election, do you REALLY think it will make the American people vote for Kerry? I don't."

Yeah, given another event, the sheeple will once again rally round the Chimp. Kerry who?

[yardwork]

42. Terrorism is always bad news but

I'm not convinced that the attack in Spain caused the election results. To believe that, we have to put a lot of faith in the pre-election polls as reported, and we all know that polls are not necessarily valid.

Since 90% of the Spanish people were against the war to begin with, and nothing since then is likely to have made them happier about it, I'm inclined to think that a majority of Spanish people planned to oust the government well before the terrorist attack.

In other words, I don't believe those Spanish polls anymore than I believe the U.S. polls.

The people didn't like what their government did, so they booted the government out.

[Crachet2004]

55. I wondered about that too...the Right in Spain may have been...

gonna get their butts kicked anyhow, but the pre-election polls were lies-like over here. Could be.

But I also think it was anger at govt. attempts to 'spin' the story that caused the huge turnout.

Spin is nothing more than twisting the truth for your own advantage, and at a time of national tragedy, is extremely inappropriate.

[Zhade]

46. You ARE wrong. Here's why: 90% of Spain was against the Iraq invasion.

This election was not influenced away from what would have happened anyway. The terrorists did not change the people of Spain's resolve to vote Anzar's party out. They were already on their way to do that.

This was NOT appeasement of the terrorists, and it would be an insult to the Spanish people to suggest it was.

[DoNotRefill]

77. Please see....

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/wolf.blitzer.reports/

click on the "view results" link for the poll. 70% currently say the election results are a victory for Al Queda.

I guess the Spanish people are insulted....

[daleo]

84. An online CNN poll is meaningless

This is not a random poll of the Spanish population, so what does it have to do with anything. A poll of this nature has no scientific validity. I find it hard to believe that you don't already know that.

[DoNotRefill]

88. While it's not scientific....

It DOES provide an inkling into how "average 'murcans" are thinking. And given the sheer volume of responses (currently at 226K), it's doubtful that it's been Freeped to any great degree.

[ze_dscherman]

47. The Spanish did not only vote PSOE because of the attack

IMO, they voted because
- they were angry and upset that PP tried to utilize the attacks for themselves, by pointing at ETA and hiding other connections
- they did not want Spain to participate in the Iraq invasion, and felt this would endanger themselves, and subseqently found out they were right.

If indeed this had been an attack by ETA, the Spanish would probably have voted PP.

[jmcgowanjm]

66. Operation Gladio

"The makings of the bomb which killed 85 people at
Bologna railway station
in 1980 came from an arsenal used by Gladio, the Italian
wing of Nato's
communist-resistance network, according to a
parliamentary commission on
terrorism...The suggested Link with the Bologna
massacre is potentially the
most serious of all the accusations levelled against
Gladio, and comes just
two days after the Italian Prime Minister, Guilio Andreotti,
cleared
Gladio's name in a speech to parliament, saying that
the secret army did
not drift from its formal Nato military brief."
(Ed Vulliamy, Guardian,
16/1/91)

http://www.thejohnfleming.com/gladio.html

[berry]

73. VERY interesting information--thanks

I do have a question--I tried to just look at the "thejohnfleming" site to see if there was other interesting info, and I found it impossible to navigate. However did you find the "Operation Gladio" page?

Post-WW2 evidence that the US was supporting nazi and fascist organizations everywhere is not all that hard to assemble. So it's interesting how few people know about it. Naturally, it's not in US history textbooks for the schools....

[Rollins]

21. The end to Bush having any chance of winning an election is near...

The final nail takes place as soon as a prominent European leader says publicly that they would prefer to work with Kerry instead of bush. People are teaming up already. Bush has united the world against him and his Neo-con theologists and for that I am thankful. Good job Jr.

Now anybody think the Bush family Neo-cons are going to just hand over the keys to the kingdom when it looks like they are going to lose the election?

[Zhade]

75. No. They will not leave the White House without a fight.

You can be assured of that.

[SKKY]

25. This isn't what I'm hearing...

PP didn't lose the election because they supported us in the war on Iraq. Remember, they were ahead in every poll days before the bombing. PP lost the election because they lied about the investigation and insisted that ETA was involved when they knew from the beginning it had to have been (Enter Islamic Terrorist group of your choice here, they're all the same pretty much anyway). That was the final straw. If Aznar had been more honest, he'd still be in office. Just my opinion...

[slack]

26. I think you're right

The PP tried to use the bombings for there own interests and lied to the people. And these manipulations make many people very angry.
If Aznar had been more honest, he'd still be in office. Just my opinion...I think you're right.

[Art_from_Ark]

61. Aznar wasn't running-- thus, he would be leaving office anyway

It was his hand-picked successor, Mariano Rajoy, who lost.

[SKKY]

86. Yea, that's what I mean to say.

[otohara]

30. And You Would Be Hearing This From???

the corporate media perhaps?

Since the day of the attacks on Spain, the gov. of Spain and the US media (always the lapdog) have not uttered one word about the possibility that the attacks were in retaliation of Aznar's support of invasion/occupation.

Only today, after the elections - is the media coming forward and saying what most of us have believed since it happened.

Aznar and other so called "coalition of the willing" allies put their countries in danger by lining up behind Bush/Blair lies.

Even today, the fucking media whores are repeating the administration's line, that this attack in Spain proves that EUROPE (implication being ALL OF EUROPE) is not safe from terrorists. When the truth is, only those who supported the US immoral/illegal war are not safe from future Al Quada attacks.

Oh but we're all safer now that Saddam has been overthrown. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[SKKY]

34. OK, you really need to get out more...

Actually, I've been on the phone almost constantly with my family in Spain since the attacks. I'm conveying what my family and friends are telling me and what I've read from several Spanish media outlets (I assure you, they're not repeating ANY administration's line). The PP lied/misled, and the voters spoke, pure and simple. Don't believe me, learn Spanish and read it for yourself. Either way, you really should get out more.

[otohara]

41. PP Popularity Had More To Do With Economy - It's The Economy Stupid!

PP has public confidence: The PP looks set to win the election easily, polls show. The opposition Socialists face a tough challenge because most Spaniards believe the PP has done a good job managing the economy.

A poll in La Vanguardia newspaper showed nearly half of Spaniards thought the economy was in “good or very good” shape.

Economic growth, 2.4 percent in 2003 versus 2.0 percent in 2002, looks more than healthy when compared to core Europe, as France and Germany struggle with sluggish growth.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-3-2004_pg5_26

http://www.time.com/time/europe/spain/round_3.html

Oh my, it appears the Spaniards are no different than American's. Why concern yourself with the possibility that your government lied to you and paid NO attention to the 90% who opposed the war - when the economy is doing so well? Then terrorists come along, kill a couple hundred people and eyes are opened.

P.S. I'm not calling you stupid. I would never insult a new member to DU - as you insulted me - I am just quoting James Carville.

Learn to read Spanish - ohh...nice.

[rman]

65. it's both:

The Spanish people didn't like Aznar to begin with, opposed his support for Bush and the war in Iraq. On top of that they didn't like the fact that he lied about ETA being responsible for the attack.

in the words of one Spaniard:
"We all perceived that the government was trying to do the same as Bush on the 9/11 attacks and on the Iraq invasion: deceiving and lying. Our president Aznar even said that those who thought ETA was not behing the attacks was a terrorist. Does it sound familiar to you americans? (Either you are with us or against us). We just said NO, we will not take it. That is what I´m mostly happy about, that we didn´t swallow the lies of our government, we did not fall into the manipulation of these Bush cronies. And we kicked them out of office."

[SKKY]

85. I agree with you, but...

Do you think, for one second that what happened in Spain won't be in the next (Islamic Extremist Group of your choice) series of recruitment videos. I fully respect the Spanish decision in voting for PSOE (Or against PP, depending on how you look), but I wish they'd taken a step back and thought this thing out. I personally was for delaying the elections by no more than month (As even PSOE and IU recommended). Much more than the message it sends to PP, it sends a horrible message to Islamic extremists everywhere, irregardless if that is why the Spanish turned (and rightly so) on the PP. "Yes, we can effect change by means of terror." Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think we'll be able to safely predict the next series of attacks if we look at when England, Italy, and Poland will be holding their next elections. God, I hope I'm wrong.

[truthisfreedom]

29. this illustrates the problem that bush really has. he believes his cowboy

image... he thinks that violence is the only answer to violence. thousands of years of experience have been tossed aside... the answer to this was less violence and more of an awareness of what we are doing in the rest of the world from the start. instead of recognizing that the "carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs" approach didn't work for a very specific reason, because it incited more hatred. bush claims to be a man of god, but a man of god would help those who hates him, would risk trying to make their lives better to diminish the hatred rather than killing tens of thousands of innocents in a what seemed a short-sighted, foot-stamping tantrum.

[DoNotRefill]

35. Do you REALLY think the majority of Americans feel that way?

"the answer to this was less violence and more of an awareness of what we are doing in the rest of the world from the start. "

I don't. I think most average 'Murkans LIKE our bombing people. As long as it doesn't interfere with NASCAR and WWE...

[truthisfreedom]

37. i never said that i do. but i believe it, personally.

[DoNotRefill]

43. yeah, but....

we ain't exactly "average 'Murcans...."

[Layman]

36. !Viva Espana!

The irony is delicious. The first country to feel the boot of facisism in the twentieth century will be the first country in the twentieth-first century to lead us out of this darkness.
!Viva Espana!

[frank frankly]

58. great point, layman!

welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Art_from_Ark]

62. Well, not quite the first country to feel fascism

since Italy had become fascist more than 10 years before the Spanish Civil War

[Layman]

69. Facisist History

Yes, Old Benito was around much earlier than Franco but the Italian strain of facism was welcomed by the Italians, the Falangists overthrew a democraticly elected republican gov't with the support of the German airforce.

[Barkley]

39. Mr. Aznar ignored 90% of Spaniards who opposed the war

That's not courageous that's stupid!

Why does the media repeat Bush's statements so uncritically.

[CoupdEtat2000]

40. LOL! I love BLOWS to Bush headlines!

how many have there been lately, hmmmm? LOL!

[osaMABUSh]

49. Can't wait for the WH spin doctors to try to fix this one

Kerry is going to have a field day with this crooked, lying group.

[Rich Hunt]

52. does this mean

...that Spanish rice will now be called 'freedom rice'?

[Algorem]

57. No evidence of suicide bombers,an Al Quaida signature,say Spanish in-

vestigators;the videotape in which Al Quaida claims responsibility has not been authenticated,and U.S. intelligence has picked up no chatter suggesting Al Quaida involvement,said ABC radio reporter at the White House I heard at 8am.Also Australia's federal police chief said them supporting U.S. has made them a terror target,prime minister is trying to calm fears but gives no guarantees.Wadda tangled web W. weave.

[rman]

67. also no indication of ETA involvement

(no demands, targetting civilians instead of officals)

that leaves plenty room for speculation.
false-flag anyone?

[Algorem]

70. maybe that's what france wants urgent eu meeting for?

they got the goods on bfee?cheney accidentally left his underpants in one of the suitcases they used for bombs?

[rman]

64. "courageous leader who ignored democracy"

I'm probably just pointing out the obvious, but isn't that what it comes down to?

"Time after time, President Bush has responded to critics who say he has alienated America's closest allies by pointing to Mr. Aznar as a courageous example of a leader who ignored poll numbers — 90 percent of Spaniards opposed the war — and who acted in Spain's best interests."

Bush*'s apparent dislike for democracy also explains why Germany and France were vilified as "Old Europe", and why Turkey was said to have "no democratic credentials" when its government sided with the majority of the population who opposed the war in Iraq.

[Flagg]

68. maybe Aznar lost

because Spain has the worst unemployment rate in the EU


just a theory

[Nashyra]

74. I don't think that * will runnaway with the elction if there is another

terrorist attack, in fact I think just the opposite. The Kerry campaign will only have to come out and say what Clark said, "that Iraq was a classic bait and switch", if we had concentrated on Bin Laden and Afghanistan instead of going after a "personal vendetta" we would probably have caught Bin Laden by now and we would have had a worldwide coalition to go after Saddam. Instead * took his eye off the ball and went to play with the neocons and seek revenge for his daddy and Al Queda was allowed to grow and spread unchecked. * would lose his ass if there was another attack, I do believe that Kerry whole heartedly supported the Afghanistan war.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[daleo]

83. CNN says AlQueda thought just the opposite

Supposedly, they (AQ)said on an internet site a few months ago that a bombing near the election would drive Spain into the hands of the pacifist socialists. Now, we have Bush (BFEE) claiming a few months ago that a bombing would drive Spain into the hands of the terror fighting rightists.

So, take your pick of smoking guns.