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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:13 AM
Original message
Shocked Greeks digest cuts, unions call strikes
Source: Reuters

ATHENS (Reuters) - Communist protesters occupied the finance ministry and Greece's main unions called a 3-hour work stoppage for Friday in mounting discontent at austerity measures designed to stem the country's debt crisis.

Greeks greeted news of 4.8 billion euros ($6.6 billion) in wage cuts, pensions freeze and tax hikes with a mixture of anger and resignation, with one pollster warning the government would have to move quickly to counter a general sense of shock.

About 70 communist trade unionists occupied the finance ministry peacefully on Thursday morning and prevented workers entering. Police did not intervene.

Groups ranging from anarchists to hotel workers planned protests in central Athens later in the day.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6232SG20100304
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Greece..
... is broke. They can strike, protest, bitch and moan but it is what it is.

America is also broke, just in not quite as transparent a way. One wonders how Americans are going to react when things get really bad.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah, and since the EU isn't impressed by this,
things could get a whole lot worse in Greece. They may end up looking back on this 'austerity' as the good ol days.
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. America
We're so divided, we'll probably end up in Revolution. There's really no way around it since the government and MSM have been so successful at brainwashing so many folks. A lot of people are believing in bold faced lies, and there will come a time where we need to deal with it all. That will probably happen when we can no longer prop our markets up and are forced to let them come tumbling down...
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If the country is that divided, it won't mean revolution,
it'll mean civil war...with sections of the country breaking off into their own areas.
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Agreed...
I pick my son up from my parents 3-4 times a week and every time I walk into their house, they have Fox News on. It's just sickening. I've told them to not have that crap on with my son there, but how can I (their son) enforce that? I am forced to have them watch my son so that I don't have to pay for childcare. Lovely...

Back to us being divided. Yes, we are much divided. My very much conservative parents were very much liberal parents 15 years ago. I have no clue what happened. My whole growing up we were the little guys, answer collector calls daily, only able to pay rent and utilites, etc... how, oh how could someone that is faced with that turn and become conservative.

Ugh!
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. When you finally get something,
you're keen to keep it I guess. So you become more conservative and anti-taxes.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. my parents changed with the advent of Reagan and Foxnews, too
they were always socially conservative; no gambling, light drinking, but voted for mcgovern & carter. they took me to guitar masses and vietnam war protests.

then reagan happened. they became selfish and scared. now my dad will parrot foxnews, and his fallback position is "both parties are the same".

i had no choice but to conclude that most people are sleeping and do not want to wake up.
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. We share the same struggle...
It's so disheartening to see your parents sitting there, brainwashed as can be. And to think, if your own parents can fall victim to the Repuke intentions, then imagine how many others there are out there.
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
78. All I can tell you is never question the wisdom of elders n/t
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Catholicism...
"...they took me to guitar masses..."

Catholicism has changed dramatically over the past 30 years. The old liberal priests of the 60s and 70s (like Daniel Berrigan) are dying and retiring. Seminaries are now producing little Bush-bots, and many of these elderly people are hearing crap on Fox news that is then reinforced by their priests on Sunday. The sad fact is, most people look to others to tell them what to think, and they tend to be most susceptible to:

--things that prey on their most base instincts (like fear and "us vs. them")
--propaganda advocating the most simplistic, "dumbed down" solutions
--people who wear the cloak of authority (like a roman collar)

Liberal ideals generally don't resonate with people like this unless it is reinforced by television, their churches, and their communities. Most people are sheep, and the far-right has a distinct advantage with such folks.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
40. You tell your parents what they can't watch on their tv in their house?
And your question is how can you enforce that?

A better question might be how they put up with your crap.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Uh I think they said
to please not have that on while the little one is there. If mine were little I would ask the same of any caregiver, including my parents. Hate and fear-mongering is unfit viewing for the young.

Julie
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. Thanks J!
for your support... :)

What part of MI are you in? My uncle and cousin just moved to GR and love it!
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Beautiful Traverse City.


You can count on my support for reasonable statements anytime Juneboarder! :hi:

Julie
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. That is a beautiful pic!
It's probably all snowy, though, right now?
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. My crap?
Are you serious?!? Yes, I tell them I don't want them having Fox News on while my son is there. My son is under 2 and shouldn't have any tv on at all to begin with, let alone Fox News. How can anyone in their right mind put up with Fox News?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. Yes - your crap
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 07:27 PM by Yupster
You seem to think that your parents' home becomes yours when you step inside it, or if your kid steps inside it.

It doesn't.

Your parents home is their home. They can watch whatever they want to watch.

If you don't like your son watching that show, then don't leave him there.

If my kid ever pulled that crap on me...


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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. If your kid ever pulled that crap on you--what? You'd waterboard him?
With the techniques you learned from Fox News?
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
93. Yes, it will either be anarchy or totalitarianism.
And I believe that good stands a greater chance of overcoming evil with no government than with total government control.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I know I'd opt for revolution
if somebody told me that instead of my 14 monthly salary payments per year I'd only be getting 12. I mean, how retrograde is that--only 12 months' salary in a year!?
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. LOL... seriously
The nerve!
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. It's a salary cut no matter what tricks are employed to disguise it.
If you've been getting 14 payments every year for years, that was your annual salary, even if two of them were labeled extra months. Any way you care to spin it, cutting those means a one-seventh (14 percent) reduction in annual salary. Now if you were just scraping by on food, rent, dependents and other automatic expenses, where does that put you?
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
55. Where did you get this idea? It's not in the OP or anywhere else on this
thread - it's an interesting notion that Greeks get paid 14 months for 12 months work. Where did you get that, please?
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Link
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Thank you!
From the link:

The 14th salary works like this: Greek workers get their annual salary in roughly 14 installments. On top of 12 monthly payments, employees receive double their paychecks in December, right in time for Christmas consumerism. They also receive half of their monthly spending in the spring to shell out on goods for Easter. Then they get another half-salary boost in July, before their traditional summer vacation.

But the 14th salary system isn't the problem with the Greek economy, says Elias Papaioannou, an expert on international economics at Dartmouth College, "it's just an alternative way to distribute."

It's not even that alternative. Other EU countries use plans that are much the same. According to international salary guide website Just Landed, Belgium, Germany, France and Holland have similar holiday bonus-based payment systems that factor in to workers' annual salaries.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. You're welcome of course. nt
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Not to mention they are also keen on tax evasion

Then you can see what a mess that particular country is.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The crazier the taxes, the more evastion
In Russia it is practically impossible to run a business and pay the taxes, which are absurdly complex, contradictory and can add up to OVER 100% of net income.

Thus businesses keep two sets of books, one real and one to show the tax inspectors.

The plus for an autocratic government is that they know every successful businessman is cheating on his taxes.

If he wasn't he'd be broke. He's not broke so he must be cheating.

Thus the government can arrest anyone who falls out of favor for tax evasion.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah, if you're taxed at over 100%, it can be difficult to make a profit. nt
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Yes, that's how it works. n/t
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Sounds like most Countries
Everyone knows that no one isn't following the laws.

And that at anytime you can be "bought in" for any reason.


Actually correct that,it sounds like every country.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. How does the saying go?
Something like the government can't control an honest, law-abiding person.

So make the laws so that no one can live their lives without committing a crime, then the government can control them.

Wow, sounds like lots of laws here, too.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. You're talking about the US, right? The US has got the "tax evasion"...........
.................thing cornered. Large companies, wealthy people evade the fuck out of taxes and the "little" guys pay the piper.
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Goldman doesn't evade taxes
That would be kind of clumsy.

They just set stuff like Greece or AIG up and then bet against them.

The real "players", in the states,have the liberty to run a much more complex racket then just cheating on their books.

Basically if you're using every loophole in the book-you're not cheating.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Yes. Before stealing the world, they had it legalized.
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. They were more then willing to help the Greeks set themselves up for failure
There is no law against inciting a country of idiots into some truly shady practices.

It is unethical,short-sighted and it does "wonders" for your reputations. It is,however,completely legal.

You cannot bring Blankstein or anyone else from that company to court over what happened out there.

They're as clean as a line of coke.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. To speak of a "country of idiots" speaks to your limitations, not theirs.
Based only on your message I submit that you know nothing about Greece, or for that matter the role of the banks and of the US empire in the situation there.
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Greece think it will come out ahead
Again the only people getting Gypped are the "Hellens".

From what I understand the French Banks own about 25% of Greece debt and Germans about 15% percent.

The US empire happily gave Kosovo to the Albanians thugs.Why in God's name would the Greeks want anything to do with that unless they were a bit foolish?

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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. Communists...
protesting efforts to cut debt is hilarious. Aren't they supposed to be for the greater good? Or is it really better for a country to go deeper and deeper into debt at the cost to greater society and only the temporary benefit to companies and their unions? GM is a good record of what happens when a company is oversubsidized and never ever cuts back on costs because of unions. Eventually the company collapses. Or the country.

If it weren't for the stunning ignorance displayed by these protesters, who don't seem to understand the reality of debt and market forces, I might take them slightly more seriously. But all it comes across as is "I got mine and don't take it away, even if it fucks over the country as a whole". I guess the irony is that they remind me of the tea party. Commuists, anarchists, tea partiers, all in the streets, all ignorant tools.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Another anti-union reactionary. What the fuck do you know about unions?
I can't wait to hear the response.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. What do you know about my opinion?
Obviously you can't read too well. I was pointing out the irony of Communists protesting cutting back on spending and raising taxes to reign in debt. Technically, they should be for a 100% tax rate. The anarchists should go off and live on an island as hermits. I think unions are a good thing for society, but I don't think they should be catered to exclusively at the expense of greater society, the same with corporations.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. What I Know About Your Opinions Is Enough To Toss You In The IGNORE Pile
Later PUNK.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. Haha!
Glad I never will have to talk to you again.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
45. I could give a shit less, about you're fucking opinions. Someone.......
..........has to tell you it ain't facts if you just make shit up.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
68. What are you talking about?
You make absolutely NO sense. Please, make some sense or don't post.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #68
81. Are you really, really telling ME to make sense? Better take your........
.......own advice. You wouldn't know a Communist if one bit you in the ass.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. I think that most "Communists" are not really Communists...
is what it comes down to. I have nothing against unions, but Communists are just as ideologically bound to a utopian bad dream as their libertarian counterparts.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. I don't know if you REALLY understand this, but there is a huge.....................
...............HUGE fucking difference between a Libertarian and a Communist. It ain't even like "apples & oranges", it's more like apples and a fucking semi. You also seem to have a fixation that unions are somehow equal to Socialism or Communism, again not true at all, they are constructed on democratic principles.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Once again, all you say is...
"you're wrong". You don't explain yourself, and you say things that I never said. I never said there wasn't a big difference between the two ideologies, but all ideologies can share certain similarities. And I never said anything about Unions being equal to socialism or communism, that would be you, who accused me of attacking unions for making fun of psuedo-commies.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
56. Why would you think Communists would favor taxes at all?
Interesting notion, that.

Of course, anyone who values people over piles of paper called money is branded undesirable in this rathole country of paperhangers.....
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #56
69. Considering Communists don't believe in private property...
All of your income should be government controlled. The government will decide how much it will pay back to you personally for your work and how much it will use for all other things society needs, like toothbrushes, vacuums, etc. Technically, you wouldn't have to pay "taxes" since you would never own anything to pay taxes on in the first place. But if you are a communist living in a capitalist system, you would want a higher tax rate because it means more government control of income and more government spending power and less private property for everyone else involved.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. Quit building now or you'll run out of straw!
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. You don't know what a strawman is.
Strawman my ass. The OP isn't pushing a point of view for a "strawman" to be made out of, so your post actually makes absolutely no sense. But me giving reasons as to why it might be counterintuitive for Communists to oppose debt slashing and tax raises is addressing the subject I brought up directly. Unless I'm making a strawman out of my own opinions. People need to stop throwing around "strawman" everytime they can't argue a point or are too lazy to try to.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
80. What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have a fucking clue..............
.............what Communism or Socialism really is? There are NO pure Communist or Socialist governments in the world. You are talking a bunch of "what ifs" in your own confused mind.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. I posit "what ifs" to point out that these "Communists"
in the OP's story really don't come across as Communist. Socialist, yes, but not Communist.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. ???????????? Are you fucking high? Do you actually have ANY............
............idea what the Greek situation is? What you sound like is someone that hasn't a fucking clue about what Communism or Socialism is. Jesusfuckingchrist, go out and read fucking something!
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Yeah, I do...
but you obviously can't fucking read, period, so I don't expect you to understand much. All of your responses have been two sentences long, and explain shit, because you know nothing. All you have are your personal attacks. Anyone who seriously defends Communism is automatically ignorant in my book. Or who combines it automatically with socialism. All of your posts have been ignorant.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Oooh, they don't understand the "reality of debt and market forces"!
Those are laws of nature! No human arrangement was involved!

Stupid Communists!

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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. What a load...
Just because Communists are equal to Teabaggers in ignorance doesn't make me an Ayn Rand supporter.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I didn't think so.
Just when I wrote, "stupid communists," I couldn't resist the association to that hilarious graphic.

But this:

"Just because Communists are equal to Teabaggers in ignorance..."

-is enough for me to draw a judgement.

Have a nice life.

Manifesto of the Communist Party

A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?

Two things result from this fact:

I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.

II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself.

To this end, Communists of various nationalities have assembled in London and sketched the following manifesto, to be published in the English, French, German, Italian, Flemish and Danish languages.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Wow, support for communism. Something which seems to fail each time its implemented.
Support for socialism is common on DU, but support for Communism is fairly unusual. -
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Do you miss the days when you could hunt them for sport?
Strawmen, obnoxious arguments, boring.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Want to list those strawmen?
Do you even know what that means?
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. They're two sides of the same coin...
generally. The idea of teabaggers as Ayn Rand extremist anti-communists make them pretty much guilty of the same kind of ignorance and delusion. One thinks that the free market is the end all be all and will solve all problems, the other thinks that central planning is. Both are wrong, and there is ample evidence of both extremes having failed as economic systems. Hence the ignorance and in many cases forced delusion in spite of all the evidence staring them in the face.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. I don't think central planning is the be all of anything.
Nor do I accept the label, though the tradition has much to offer.

Neither did Marx. You should read that. Maybe you did in high school. You should read it again.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #39
72. Well then you are a Marxist...
I guess, not a Communist. Though, in all honesty I have a hard time believing anyone is a true "ist" of any sort, considering most people don't agree with all aspects of such ideologies. Every single Communist country that has existed had a centrally planned economy. And even with Marx's utopian idea of people democratically making decisions about the economy, the government would be the one to carry out these decisions, and therefore would still be centrally planned, albeit in a democratic way, though how in holy hell something as complicated as the economy could truly be voted on in all its complexity would be pretty much impossible to implement. And the idea of a largely ignorant and biased voter base with their own interests voting for what would be best for the country economically (and not just for their own line of work) seems to escape me.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
58. Why would you think Communists favor central planning?
I mean, anyone can label anything, but that hardly makes it true. When I teach my own students the difference between nominal and real, I point out that I could make a nametag identifying me as a Martian lesbian, but that would hardly have the effect of making that actual.

Maybe you should actually read Marx, instead of a bunch of mislabeled dictators.....
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
70. Because if you are a Communist country...
in the truest sense, you have central planning. I can't think of any Communist countries that didn't have centralized planning in some form or another.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. There have been no communist countries. There have been some
dictatorships that labeled themselves communists, but there are also some dictatorships that label themselves people's republics.

You badly need to read Marx. No country has ever tried communism.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Well no country has ever tried libertarianism either...
I mean, it's pretty much impossible for either to ever happen regardless, but even Marx's utopian idea of Communism would require central planning to me. Even if decisions about the economy are being made democratically, it would require the government to carry those decisions out, which is central planning.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
79. See, you're stuck on Hegel and the Idea. Marx stood that on its
head. Please, actually read him. The structures you're speaking of are part of a different world.

People said you couldn't fly by flapping your arms. Right. But you can by using differential air pressure.

You can't get a Marxist society with government, votes, or central planning.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #73
88. You either are seriously intelligence challenged or extremely naive.....
.......You talk in "theory" not in actualities. In some European countries, Socialism is the theoretical basis, but social Democracy is the actuality. You start with a theoretical system and modify it according to a country's own particular needs. JUST LIKE FUCKING CAPITALISM.
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Hilarious my ass.
They are not protesting efforts to cut debt. They are protesting efforts to cut debt at the expense of the working class again.
And they are doing it because they understand "the reality of debt and market forces" better than their free-market-worshipping
business-friendly leaders give them credit for, and certainly better than their class-mates in the US. They know that it was not their
fault that their country is broke, they also know very well whose fault it actually is. Is it so out-of-line for them to demand that those
at fault should also share the pain? If ordinary people in America are OK with paying out of their pockets for the banker's mistakes
(hell, they even appear to be OK with paying those bankers billions dollars in bonuses for their trouble), it doesn't mean that people in other
countries also should be.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Who should be made to pay and how? nt
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Who should be made to pay? Capitalists. How? With their money.
Other questions?
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. Well, that explains everything. nt
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. But in Greece the capitalists don't have enough money to pay down the debt.
Market capitalization in Greece has become almost non existent. The only solution is to make draconian cutbacks to government spending.

I feel for the working class there. This crisis is not their fault. But it's got to the point where trying to assess blame for the crisis is beside the point. Solutions to this crisis will involve inflicting pain upon the working class. There is no way around it.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Simply default on the debt. Walk away from it. Many large corporations
have done just that. What's the problem? Those betting that the debt would be paid gambled just anyone else who relinquishes control of an asset to someone else.

They lose the bet. Wanna play again?

Nothing controversial or unusual about it. In face, when a high roller goes broke, nobody feels sorry for him; not the house, not the other players, not even his beloved other.

When you gamble, there are odds. The lenders rolled craps on this one.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. That might seem like an easy solution.
But if they do that and get away with it, and they well might, then other countries in similar straights might try the same thing and that could eventually bring down the financial system world wide and then we'd really be in a pickle. And under that scenario, the working class would take a big hit.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Don't know why you think the working class would take a hit.
That's not who loaned all that money, but it is who's being asked to pay it back.

My grandparents never knew what the Great Depression was. They lived the same before, during, and for about 20 years after it. What happened to working people when the savings and loans went belly up big time in the 80's? Nothing.

It would be the same now. Gamblers cannot always win. Debt is a simple legal fiction that is wiped away all the time in routine court proceedings and informal walkaways.

If the net effect of a global default would be much less credit extended in the future, that's a good thing. Banks and investment houses are a net loss to the real production economy, and the sooner they are swept away, the sooner more people will have more real things.
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. That's even a better idea.
This way not even all capitalist are made to pay, but only those who
contributed to the problem. And it's been done before, Russia in 1998
and Argentina in 2001 are just a couple of recent examples. Both countries
entered prolonged periods of strong economic growth following their
respective defaults, with very little detrimental effects to their ability
to borrow internationally - there is never a shortage of gamblers in
that casino. Capitalists' memories are short, and they are definitely
better equipped for losing money than the rest of us. Besides, they are
not going to starve and live in tent cities even after losing some
of their wealth, are they?
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #54
65. Don't have enough money? Are you kidding me?
This whole austerity brouhaha with cutting salaries, freezing pensions, raising
retirement age, etc is about saving $6 billion a year. That's the estimated worth
of a single Greek billionaire family (the Latsis family) - and there are many more
very rich people in Greece. Imagine, you can net the same money by either making
the whole population of Greece suffer or by limiting the "suffering" to, I don't
know, one-two dozen people. What would you choose? But of course, the whole population -
it is so much fairer. Forget about hitting the poor Latsises for the whole amount -
if everybody's salary is being cut by 15%, is it not fair to apply the same haircut to
all the bilionaires too? Why is it such a heresy to even suggest that those who have
benefited the most during the good times should endure their fair share of suffering too?
Why is it that only the innocent must pay - is this some kind of "natural law" of capitalism?
But of course, it is, what am I thinking.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
75. It will be at the expense of everyone...
why do you think otherwise? The working class is the most vulnerable, but they also have power in who they vote for, and the politicians they voted for handled government spending very badly.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Ah, yes, they need to know their role and submit to their corporatist betters!
:eyes:
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
74. The corporations will suffer as well...
from higher taxes on them and on the working class that they sell their products to. The whole country will suffer, not just the working class. Obviously, the working class is the most vulnerable, and Greece should keep what public spending it can to help them, no doubt about it. It's definitely better than the alternative. And while it's no individual's fault per se, the working class votes, and the government represents them, so if their representitives fucked them over, they do only have themselves to blame for voting them in, and should proceed accordingly in the future when voting. I think a lot of people can take lessons from that.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
87. Maybe you ought to get over to Athens and set those Greeks straight!
I would love to see how they react to Mr. Holy Free Market.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Thought this was a food health post -
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 03:41 PM by RaleighNCDUer
digesting cut onions.

I recommend Beano.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
37. This is what happens when Goldman Sachs hides your debt and then sells bets that your country falls
Goldman Sachs is doing God's work, remember?
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. With a good measure of help from George Soros.
May they all spend eternity basting each others' asses with barbecue sauce.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Amen.
.
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Bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
51. Shoot the Idiot that Pushed the Euro down there throats.
Greece should GET OUT of the EEU. Greece is sooooo expensive now that the Euros in place I never want to go back.
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
94. That would be for the best
Greece should regain its independence and its currency from the EU.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
82. An Americans sit around on our asses
Hell the Icelanders were rioting and banging on the PM's car BEFORE our crash happened....oh but no coverage of that because that might excite the masses
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
92. Info about the strike on Friday, March 5
The following update comes from the Communist Party of Greece:

The immediate mobilisation of the class oriented forces has been a strong response to the announcement of the new reactionary measures that impose severe cuts and launch a sweeping attack on the people’s income.

The class oriented forces unveiled the coordinated effort of the social democrat government along with the liberal ND, the nationalist LAOS, the opportunist SYN/SYRIZA, the GSEE and ADEDY leaderships that seek to conceal the fact that the new measures constitute a result of the capital’s strategy, that they are permanent and affect all the working people.

Tens of thousands of protesters flooded the centre of Athens and tens of other cities protesting the cuts on salaries and pensions, the 30% cuts on Christmas-Easter bonuses and vacation allowances, the drastic increase of taxes in all categories of products and service and especially in public consumption products.

By the announcement of the measures the class oriented federations and trade union organisations that gather in PAME called for a strike for Friday March 5. At the same time under the pressure of the immediate response of PAME that called for a 24-hour strike, the compromised leaderships of GSEE and ADEDY called for 3-hour and 4-hour work stoppages. In this way, they proved in practice that they seek the extinction of the militant spirit of the working people. We should only mention that the yellow leadership of ADEDY had initially called for a strike for March 16 although the vote on the anti-people measures was on Friday March 5.

The call of PAME for a 24-hour strike had a big impact. Class oriented federations, Labour Centres and primary trade unions played a leading role in the organisation of the strike. It is noteworthy that the leaderships of the trade unions of the employees in Athens public transport who traditionally follow the line and the forms of struggle of GSEE and ADEDY were forced to call for a 24-hour strike that paralysed the transport in the capital. The same happened with a series of primary trade unions that do not join PAME. Yellow trade unionism was once again isolated. In critical moments the masses of workers trusted the class oriented forces of PAME for the organisation of the struggle.

Since Friday dawn the class oriented forces organised picket lines in ghetto-workplaces enabling workers to go on strike, to defy employers’ intimidation and to participate massively in the strike.

The social-democrat government, supported by the extreme-right party LAOS, passed the measures while tens of thousands of strikers from the ranks of PAME were surrounding the building of the Parliament.

The parliamentary group of KKE abandoned the procedure of discussion in the parliament considering that there was no room for discussion of such hostile bills for the working class.

http://inter.kke.gr/News/2010news/2010-03-05strike/
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