Seattle police to review training after girl punched

[demoleft]

Source: bbc

Seattle police are to review training procedures after video of an officer punching a teenage girl circulated widely on US television and online.
...
The officer, Ian Walsh, has been transferred temporarily to the department's training unit, Seattle police said.

Police officials said the review of training procedures was not meant as a criticism of the officer's actions but would examine whether training could be improved.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10336500.stm

---

"The girls, who were arrested, were not harmed in the incident, police said."

no. i imagine they had a great time there.

[Evergreen Emerald]

1. Here is the uncut video

http://www.kirotv.com/video/23904902/index.html

I do not fault the officer. He was attacked and in the midst of an angry group of people.

[Vattel]

2. My 5-yr-old niece has subjected me to far worse attacks

and yet somehow I always manage not to punch her in the face.

[Evergreen Emerald]

3. This woman was not five years old

[zonkers]

5. Failed analogy for too many reasons to list here.

[Vattel]

90. Give me a break

I wasn't trying to craft a precise analogy. My only point was that that wasn't much of an attack and so didn't warrant the disproportionate response.

[superconnected]

173. Actually most cities would have tazed the two. And considered it appropriate.

Look how the girls are attacking the cop - he's fending them off to much to call for backup and he's being entirely too nice by not macing or tazing them. I'm glad they didn't get tazed. But here you have what everyone's answer is instead of tazing - use physical force to take them down... oh, I see we don't like that answer after all. He used the most perferable method in my opinion and those girls belong in jail.

[Synicus Maximus]

197. There was no dispropotionate response.

[fascisthunter]

237. punching a 17 year old girl in the face isn't disproportionate huh?

[boppers]

142. Your 5-yr-old niece has a firearm, and is being grabbed at by others in a crowd?

Tough niece.

[Skip Intro]

4. I completely agree with you. nt

[swishyfeet]

10. Thanks for the full vid

Certainly adds a little context.

I'll be the first to jump on the anti-cop bandwagon, but he honestly showed a fair amount of restraint IMO.
Those women were being obnoxious bitches.

[KansDem]

14. "In the midst of an angry group of people..."

Don't you call for backup?

[MadMaddie]

21. He probably didn't think it was going to escalate as fast as it did

and he probably thought it's only jaywalking and it shouldn't be a problem.

He was wrestling with two people. It doesn't matter what the size is either one of them are totally capable of killing him.

[Bonobo]

28. And the over-the top rhetoric award goes to...

"Either one of them are totally capable of killing him."

[CLANG]

41. Either one could have had a knife - so it's not over-the-top.

[Bonobo]

47. Yeah, he probably should have shot the people near him too.

Do you have any idea how quickly a person can stick a knife in you?

There is a formula, I forget it, that cops use to determine the minimum distance needed between the cop and potential assailants with a knife before the cop can clear and fire his gun. It is something like 20 feet I believe.

By that logic, he should have shot everyone within that range because they ALL had the jump on him.

It is the reason that the escalation needs to be avoided.

He did a very, very piss-poot job of that, having escalalated the situation far above where it deserved to be for the "crime" of jaywalking.

You have very low expectations for what is possible in terms of professionalism in law enforcement.

The cop is deserving of criticism for his poor judgment and handling of the situation.

[Pavulon]

54. Use of force continuum. See he was soft hands

until she hit him at 11 seconds, then he used hard hands. Because people are stupid and emotions not fact rules their pea brains they assume this is abnormal.

So new rules will skip hard hands and go to tazer or Pepper Spray. You know, those things that some people die from. People dont die from getting hit in the face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

58. Shitty cop. He needs more training. Even the Seattle police agree.

He put himself in danger by unnecessarily escalating a situation to the point where he was surrounded by potentially dangerous people. Bad cop.

It's hard to see how you can disagree.

[Pavulon]

63. Disagree with what? He did his job. He is supposed to be around people

the dumb fuckers attack him. That generally gets a response. If they were stupid white girls instead of stupid black girls (or he was black) this would not even be news. His reaction was by the book. soft hands to hard hands.

[MadMaddie]

129. He did not escalate the situation the girls did

The broke a law he asked them to come back so he could site them. Where in this did he escalate? He escalated after they escalated.

[Bonobo]

131. Crappy cop. Bad judgment. nt

[Scout]

230. the great Bonobo has spoken!! :rofl: n/t

[HardWorkingDem]

313. Right....

HE escalated the situation by putting his hands on someone else....right.....

[Bonobo]

323. Crappy cop, wasted lots of resources for no real upside.

No gain was made, no bad guy caught. Just a lot of bad publicity for the police, an enraged group of people and what was gained?

Crappy judgment = crappy public service.

[awoke_in_2003]

198. this is the one time

I agree with you. All bets are out the window when she grabbed his arm. She is lucky she only got a bloody nose.

[Recursion]

325. People don't die from getting hit in the face?

That would be news to Leavander Johnson and Doo Koo Kim. Or at least their next of kin.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toopers]

184. Yes, and look how she escalated the situation . . .

and all for jaywalking.

[fascisthunter]

240. the cop was lucky he didn't get pummeled by the crowd standing around the incident.

[defendandprotect]

243. Was that the original event . . . "Jaywalking" . . . ???? Wow .... crazy cop --

[HardWorkingDem]

315. Are you a police officer?

I seriously doubt it.....

[MadMaddie]

127. CLANG I am with you

Until critics walk in those shoes they have no idea....

[Bonobo]

130. Weird...

Ironically, in the thread about psychedelics, you claim that one can "know" and criticize validly without experiencing something.

Weird.

Go figure.

[superconnected]

172. At what point in that video did he have time to call for backup - and I mean when there was a reason

to believe they were out of hand? He looks like he's too busy fending them off to make a call.

[proteus_lives]

118. +1

The uncut version makes it much clearer.

[KurtNYC]

170. Especially the audio

and the shot of the girl smiling in the back of the police car at the end.

Do not try this at home kids: In the middle of being arrested, call the cop a "weak ass bitch".

[mbperrin]

187. Anyone besides me think this was a gang ritual?

The girl is wearing the identical shirt to the two males who are carefully videoing the whole thing, not with a cell phone, but a regular videocam.

Around here, those shirts belong to the West Side.

Just an idea, and could explain why it all escalated so quickly and why she was so pleased at the end.

[Lasher]

217. That thought did not occur to me.

But it makes a lot of sense.

[superconnected]

171. I agree with you. I was sad to see the full uncut video had the girls going after the officer like

that because I wanted to be against the police in this from seeing the quick sock in the face clip that so many sites were showing.

[Hosnon]

174. I agree. While the underlying reason for the stop may be a bit ridiculous, his response

was not unreasonable.

[defendandprotect]

244. Something wrong if the original incident was JAYWALKING?

Any copy who let jaywalking steam ahead into a full blown incident like this is

lacking skills -- and relying too much on physical/macho BS --

[crim son]

176. Police must adhere to certain standards, period.

They are supposed to be trained to deal with exactly these situations without actually punching the offender - in the face or anywhere else. It's obvious that the officer lost his cool and it isn't difficult to see why, but again, training should address these situations.
Having said that and being what some people around here would call a "cop hater" I have mixed feelings about the officer's actions. He didn't seem to know what to do but for a while made an effort to avoid acting violently. I also HATE tasers but this would have been a situation where one might reasonably be used (if tasers didn't occasionally kill people, that is).

[awoke_in_2003]

200. he didn't punch the offender..

he punched the friend that grabbed and pulled on his arm. I am the first one to jump on cops when they get caught doing something stupid, and I cannot jump on this guy.

[crim son]

201. I consider

whoever he's up against to be an offender, but I recognize your position.

[awoke_in_2003]

203. Oh, i see what you mean...

and with the amount of stupid cop videos, I can see what you are saying. I never rush to defend police, I just don't know what else he could have done. There is a much longer video than this one out there, and it clearly shows the jaywalker escalating things. I wouldn't want to be in this cops shoes for any money- he is pretty much surrounded by people. Granted, most of them kept there distance, but it was a hostile crowd and you just never know.

[defendandprotect]

246. ... because it was so essential to push this this far to "cite" two jaywalkers...???

This copy was looking for an opportunity to arrest these girls --

something wrong with him --

[awoke_in_2003]

285. so if a cop is giving me a ticket...

I should just start screaming at him like a spoiled little teenage brat who watches too much "reality" TV and the cop will just walk away?

[S_B_Jackson]

308. And why was that police officer there in the first place?

The local highschool administration had contacted Seattle Police to please have them enforce the no jay-walking ordinance in front of the school as this is a VERY busy street and there was a legitimate concern that someone was going to get seriously injured or killed. The officer had been specifically detailed to enforce the no jay-walking ordinance. And too, you notice that pedestrian bridge which is shown in the video? It's not like there wasn't an alternative available for crossing the street.

The girl in question refused to cooperate with the officer who was attempting to give her a citation. And so the arrest was being made because of her refusal to provide he necessary information for him to cite her.

What do you think would happen to you if, after being stopped for running a stop sign, you refused to provide the officer who stopped you with your driver's license or you refused to sign the citation (which is merely a promise to appear in court at a later date)?

The cop was just doing his job...and showed tremendous restraint in doing it.

[Lagomorph]

202. I disagree on so many levels....

...go ahead and show me the Jedi training police officers get, that makes it possible to subdue hostile, abusive people, who refuse to cooperate, without the use of force. The only relationship in the situation is authority figure vs. rebellious lawbreakers.

What he needs is more practice with holds and takedowns. He wasn't using enough force to maintain control.

[defendandprotect]

247. This officer needed more training in containing incidents rather than letting

them escalate -- how essential was it to move from "citing" two jaywalkers

to two wrestling matches with AA females -- gathering crowd and the officer

finally losing his cool to the degree he punched one of them in the face?

This officer had no idea what he was doing --

Ended up with 5 or more police cars at the scene?

All for jaywalking???

They need more community enforcement -- not policing like this!

[Lagomorph]

290. The police don't do anything in that neighborhood...

with less than five police cars and a helicopter.

[Abq_Sarah]

209. His actions were reasonable

Considering the circumstances. There is no training I'm aware of that teaches anyone to gently subdue two out of control women, one who is resisting arrest and the other who is physically assaulting him. It does not exist anywhere other than Hollywood. The police officer is trained to respond with one level of force higher in order to gain control of the situation. She pushed, he punched. She got exactly what was coming to her and he gained control of the situation before it escalated out of control.

Police officers, like private citizens, are not required to passively submit to violence. It's absurd to suggest they should.

[defendandprotect]

245. Jaywalking ended up with 5 police cars at the scene . . . $$$$$$$$$$ -- this copy should go --

[1Hippiechick]

282. We have seen Big Brother, and he is us. Our society will never accept a man hitting a woman, imo

[Downwinder]

6. Lucky it was not BART. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

7. it really pains me to say this...

but when you grab a cop getting away with a punch in the nose is lucky. She grabbed him, and if you are wearing a gun you have to think- is this person about to get mine?

[MadMaddie]

9. That's exactly how police are trained.

More officers die because of misreading women. Sorry but it's true.

[MadMaddie]

8. The next time something like this happens and a cop gets

killed because a female attacked him then what?

This is bullshit...in Seattle we have a lot of people killed jaywalking and even in cross walks. These girls knew the rules...

Cops are taught to remove the immenent threat...there is always the potential for someone angry to go for the officers gun.

This is not about race this is about two self righteous girls whose parents failed them. They both have been arrested before. There are consequences for this kind brazen disregard for the police. What the hell did she think was going to happen?

[Skip Intro]

11. +100 nt

[defendandprotect]

248. Jaywalking is dangerous ... for the jaywalker-!! Handle that with community policing ....

neighborhood people who can gain respect -- education programs.

This officer created a threat to himself and the community -- finally 5 or more

police cars and officers called out to deal with it??? How much taxpayer money

involved in this one!!???

Of course this was about race - and macho police enforcement.

This kind of policing is costly and wrong --

[KurtNYC]

298. If I screamed at an officer to "Get the f*ck off me!" and then called

him a "weak ass bitch" I would expect more than punch, no matter what race I am.

If you listen to the officer's voice throughout and when he asks the camera holder to step back, he doesn't seem angry. All in a day's work.

[Francisco]

12. Wow I'm looking through the replies and..

and I can't beleive here on DU we have people who advocate beating women! I guess you all beleive that since it was a police officer punching a woman in the face its ok right? LOL and for what...jay walking? Oh wait its because they were resisting arrest right? She grabbed his arm so he had the right to punch her....oh please.

It's plainly obvious that was not the best way to handle it. He got extra emotional, she said something he didn't like and the alpha male took over him and punched a woman in the face.

I see someone here saying "well she was jay walking she deserved it"...WHAT?! LOL!

You all should be ashamed of yourselves advocating police brutality, because thats exactly what that was plain and simple.

[Bonobo]

15. Yup. Believe it.

Glad your eyes are still unclouded and undamaged by the violence-permeated water you are swimming in.

Try to stay that way and pass that on to people around you.

[Francisco]

18. Failed attempt at a joke..

I guess?

[Bonobo]

19. I am completely serious. nt

[MadMaddie]

20. Okay lets go over this

I noticed that you conveniently skipped over the part where the girl grabbed the officer. The girl came up behind the officer and put her hands on him, at this point he does not know what she is doing. Is she going for his gun, does she have a knife?

Again more officers are killed for underestimating women.

This is not about police brutality, the officer has to mitigate the aggression towards him.

This is not about race, this really is not about them being girls. This is about the girls causing this to escalate. Where is their responbility in this?

Oh and there's more these weren't two innocent girls, they both have arrest records. One of them for assaulting a sheriff.

Now having said that, there are times when officers do employ too much force and they should be punished. In this case the officer did exactly what he was trained to do.

I suggest that you and others do ride along with officers in your town. You think that everyone the police come into contact with are innocent angels. That's not true.

Here visit this site...see how many officers are killed in the line of duty because of shit like this...

The Officer Down Memorial Page
http://www.odmp.org/
<snip>
Officer Michael Perry suffered a fatal heart attack shortly after chasing and arresting a man at a local mall. He had called for assistance and chased the larceny suspect a short distance before placing him into custody.

Officer Perry transported the man to police headquarters for booking when he suddenly collapsed. He was transported to White Plains Hospital where he passed away a short time later.

The suspect, who was a career criminal with over 300 arrests, was charged with resisting arrest and larceny.
<snip>

<snip>
Earlier in the evening Trooper Brown had escorted a patron out of the restaurant who had refused to pay a bill. Trooper Brown was standing in the parking lot talking on his cell phone when the man returned and fatally shot him without warning.
<snip>

[defendandprotect]

250. How many AAs in jail -- how many with arrest records? Anything to do with conditions?

This is not about police brutality, the officer has to mitigate the aggression towards him.

This is not about race, this really is not about them being girls. This is about the girls causing this to escalate. Where is their responbility in this?

This was a jaywalking incident -- it certainly didn't have to escalate from jaywalking

to 5 police cars. It did because of an officer was inept.

You know, what we really need to do is thrown more AAs into our prison industrial complex!!



We've militarized our police officers --

We should get them out of the air conditioned cars and back on the beat -- so they know the

community, the people involved.

[greiner3]

22. Trolls are the ones who enjoy black women;

Getting punched. Something about them being subjugated prior to their being raped by a southern man.

Just saying.

[MadMaddie]

24. Uhhhhh I am not a troll and I have been here for years

and oh wait

I am a black woman!

Guess what? I am not that fucking lazy I go to the legal cross walk and cross the street. I don't have any tickets.

This has absolutely nothing to do with race. They broke the law. To you and others jaywalking is trivial to Seattle residents are getting killed.


Many people get tickets for jay walking. These girls were not the only people that have been pulled aside.

Why didn't the girls go to the officer and take their ticket? They knew they broke the law.

Anyone?

[Skip Intro]

26. Some cry troll when they have nothing to add to a conversation. nt

[MadMaddie]

132. Aparantly!

[Bonobo]

136. A-what?

[MadMaddie]

204. Fat fingered the key board......sigh...

[Maine-ah]

166. and here I was thinking DU consisted of only white men

;-)

the stupid sometimes hurts in this place.

I wonder if some would change their tune if it was a guy that the officer hit. From the looks of the video, one girl was resisting arrest, and the other interfered in the process. For now, I agree with the cops actions, but I would like to see the results of the investigation. The one thing he should have done, was call for back up early on.

Cops shouldn't underestimate women. I have a friend who is a cop, and he's told me some interesting stories about some women he's arrested including one that got so violent in the back of the car that she kicked out a window.

[Lagomorph]

292. I live in Seattle.

A few years back, a TV crew caught the mayor jaywalking. There was hell to pay, then, too. Demonstrations, TV editorials, newspaper editorials...

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fastcars]

164. What part of the South is Seattle in?

I missed the move. And of course everyone knows that black women only get raped in the South.

Your post is comes completely from left field. How in the world does a cop punching a girl/woman in Seattle have anything to do with rape in the South? Seems that bashing on the South makes folks feel better about where they live they simple can't resist taking a shot in completely unrelated stories. Maybe if there was some mention of LEO moving to Seattle from the South the post would have at least a touch of merit.

The girls/women resisted arrest and are lucky the situation ended up with only one of them getting punched in the face. I am not one to side with LEOs out of any blind loyalty, I tend to go the other way actually, but on this occasion the officer showed great restraint. Scuffles between two civilians are entirely different than a scuffle between a LEO and multiple civilians.

If this had been two men, race not important, we would probably have been watching a video of an officer involved shooting. So the fact that they were females definitely had something to do with how the situation played out. Much to the girls fortune. You don't attack a person carrying a firearm from behind. Simple rule of survival.

[fascisthunter]

239. funny, because I think you nailed it

[CLANG]

45. You're logic has failed you. Plus, you don't know what you are talking about.

[midnight]

50. Plus 1,000.

[Abq_Sarah]

210. As a woman

I don't advocate women attacking men and then being given a pass because of their gender. That's a sexist attitude.

[defendandprotect]

261. The women were arrested -- not given "a pass" -- and one punched in the face ...

Would you consider having jaywalking summons go to the level of physical

altercation -- and five police cars?

And you don't see something wrong there?

[MellonCollie]

294. I wish there were more like you on DU. n/t

[noiretextatique]

226. i agree 1000%...disturbing, to say the least, that so many support this cop's actions

all for fucking jaywalking. granted, the girls were out of line, but his response was also out of line.
some assholes here are even speculating about this incident being a "gang ritual," obviously and only because the girls are black. if this same incident happened in beverly hills with two white girls, do you think anyone would be speculating about gang rituals? :puke: i was discussing this case on facebook with a younger cousin and his friends and i was shocked at many of the responses. and these were young black people :wow: many of whom have experienced shoddy treatment from police simply because of the color of their skin. would the cop even stop some in another area for jaywalking? i have my doubts.

i am sick of american and americans. at this point in my life, i'd love to win the lottery and move to a civilized country.

[Scout]

233. don't let the door hit you on the ass, good riddance. n/t

[noiretextatique]

236. good riddance is right

to this fucked up, racist mess of a country. you can have.

[defendandprotect]

251. So easy to convince people that more VIOLENCE is needed in every situation--!!!

They'll jump right in and buy ... "We had to burn the village to save it!"

For Pete's sake, this was jaywalking --

and eventually the officer humiliated in this failure to do the original job of

citing them for jaywalking. And having it escalate up to five and more police cars!!

That's a successful police officer? That's BS.


Of course, if you want to fill the prisons with yet more AAs, this is the way to go!!

[fascisthunter]

238. you don't have to be a democrat, liberal or conservative to sign up here

that's why... and it shows. Sociopaths love this behavior... maybe because they are small people who love authoritarian shit.

[defendandprotect]

252. People are trained to easily accept authoritarian response without questioning it ....

first thing to be questioned in this incident, IMO, is why they don't have community

policing to deal with jaywalking -- educational programs, etal.

As far as I can see, it's another means of feeding the prisons -- big business now!

[fascisthunter]

253. well said... cold you imagine this happening in a white suburban neighborhood

oh no... upper middle class children never jay-walk. :sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

262. Nope -- you're right --

[defendandprotect]

249. Agree -- officer failed in letting jaywalking become a physical confrontation with

with two females -- and agree on the "emotional" angle --

big mess -- 5 police cars --

this was absolute failure on the part of this officer --

and a quite costly failure for the city, I would guess --

[lumberjack_jeff]

264. Does the fact that it was a woman make all the difference? n/t

[HardWorkingDem]

311. BS!

This was not "police brutality"...as someone earlier posted, it is ugly to watch, but the officer's behavior was dictated by the 19 year old woman, who oddly, was as big as the police officer.

I suggest people here who think police officers are the punching bag of society go over to the Police Officer Memorial Page for a few minutes.


http://www.odmp.org/

[RedstDem]

13. Amazing all that hapened for a trivial offence

Jaywalking?!

[Francisco]

16. EXACTLY!

If she just committed a much serious offense it would be a tad bit more understandable like lets see...murder. LOL People on here are even saying they could of "reached for his gun"...which I plainly didn't see happen. This whole situation and the people saying it was justifiable disgusts me.

[MadMaddie]

23. Have you ever worn the uniform?

Have you ever gone on a ride along?

Again what would you say if the officer were shot and killed? Who would you blame?

Both of the girls knew the law.

Once again since I live in the Seattle area I will say it again people are getting killed in Seattle because they are jaywalking. The school asked the police to patrol the area because the school is worried about being liable if a student is killed.

If it wasn't such a big deal then why didn't the girls go to the officer and get their ticket? That's right they are the ones that made it a big deal, it was not the officer who escalated this event.

So much for personal responsibility, it's always someone else's fault.

[Francisco]

35. No..

but its obvious he punched her in the face BEFORE she started grabbing him from behind. And he literally pushed the girl away, looked at her for a full second and punched her in the face. I was not a quick reaction to someone grabbing his gun or whatever other excuse you want to make for this brutality.

You basically took the facts and twisted them.

[defendandprotect]

255. Exactly --

[brendan120678]

181. She didn't get punched for jaywalking...

she got punched for assaulting a cop.

[defendandprotect]

254. Agree -- people who see this behavior as "fine" certainly don't expect anything

like this to ever happen to them!! But wait . . . !!

The police are being given more license for violence vs citizens every day --

remember when they were the "public servants"?

Jaywalking should be a matter of community education --

This reminds me of Mayor Guiliani/NYC assigning copys to grab kids jumping turnstiles.

Why, because they cost the city so much money? No -- because it was an easy way to

fill the jails!

[Theobald]

305. Are you seriously suggesting that NYC stopped turnstile jumpers

in order to fill up the jails? You don't get arrested for jumping a turnstile; you get a fine. The only people arrested for jumping a turnstile are those that have an outstanding warrant for their arrest.

This will never happen to me, because I will never assault a cop. I've been questioned by cops, I've been ticketed by cops, and I've been arrested by cops and not once have I ever physically or verbally assaulted them.

You may consider jay walking a minor offense and relatively speaking it is, but the reason they ticket for the offense is because they are trying to prevent people from being hit and killed by cars. The road we are talking about is obviously very busy since it requires a pedestrian bridge to get people to the other side.

[MadMaddie]

17. People are getting killed in Seattle jay walking.

They know the law.

No this happend because the girl put her hands on a police officer and interfered with the police officer doing his job.

Where is her responsibility?

[Bonobo]

25. The cop is bad at his job. Why is it so impossible to admit this?

Any way you slice it, if an encounter begins with a cop stopping some women from jaywalking and ends with him arresting two and punching one of them in the face, it means the cop did a bad job.

He did a bad job. Accept it. It happened.

[defendandprotect]

259. Agree -- PLUS five police cars had to respond -- !!

[S_B_Jackson]

310. Well, what do you think is going to happen after he puts out a radio call...

"Officer needs assistance!" Every cop within a 2-3 mile radius makes a beeline to it.....

[defendandprotect]

256. Educate the public . . . don't punch them -- put community policing on it --

[Prometheus Bound]

27. I like the old cop's comment at 4:32: "You didn't have to do all that."

And the cameraman's response: "He didn't have to do half of that."

Notice the girl cooperated with the old cop who wasn't trying to brutalize her. All he had to do was tap her on the arm.

[SDuderstadt]

214. Yeah...because there are more cops there at that point....

given the actions of the two young women and the people in the crowd, I'm not sure what else he could do.

Sorry, the two women are clearly in the wrong.

[SDuderstadt]

222. More shoot-first, ask-questions-later

You need to watch the video more closely...that's not the old cop saying that...that's a bystander standing close to the cameraman...

[defendandprotect]

257. Excellent observations, Prometheus!!

[Evergreen Emerald]

31. The school called the police and asked for help with jaywalking

The police had been there ticketing people for jaywalking in that area. It had been a crack down based on compliants by the nearby school. The women knew the police were there, and knew that ticketing had been going on.

[defendandprotect]

258. Maybe they need a crossing guard there?

More community policing is needed -- neighborhood cops --

not cops riding around in air conditioned cars!

[ManiacJoe]

286. People need to stop being lazy...

... and use the pedestrian overpasses that the city installed so that the jaywalkers would stop getting hit by cars while illegally and unsafely trying to cross a 5-6 lane road.

[Pavulon]

34. Cops were at my place for noise all the time

i never hit them so I never got punched for a noise violation in college. Funny how that works.

[SILVER__FOX52]

29. These cop kids are way to young to have this much power.

They are not mature enought to handle it.

[Jester Messiah]

30. I can see the training instructors now...

"Good punch, but you need to follow through more!"

[alp227]

32. Seattle Police blotter: "Officer Assaulted in South Seattle"

http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2010/06/14/officer-assaulted-in-south-seattle/

On June 14th at approximately 3:10 p.m. a uniformed patrol officer was driving north in the 3100 block of MLK Jr. Way South in a fully marked police car. The officer observed a male pedestrian j-walk across MLK Jr. Way South, an arterial street. There is a pedestrian overpass (foot bridge) about 15 feet to the north of where the male pedestrian j-walked. The officer stopped the pedestrian. While interacting with the 18-year-old male pedestrian, the officer observed four female pedestrians j-walk at the same location that the male pedestrian just had. The officer instructed the females to step over to his vehicle. They were verbally antagonistic toward the officer. One female subject turned and began to walk away. The officer again instructed her to step over to his car. She continued to walk away and appeared to raise her hand in a dismissive gesture. The officer contacted the female subject and began escorting her back toward his car. The female subject began to tense up her arm and pull away from the officer while yelling at him. Once at the patrol car the female subject refused to obey the officer’s commands to place her hands on the car. When the officer again tried to gain control of her, she pulled away and twisted, breaking free of the officer’s grip several times.

At this time a large crowd gathered around the officer. When the officer tried to handcuff the female subject, another female subject intervened. The second female subject placed her hands on the officer’s arm, causing the officer to believe she was attempting to physically affect the first subject’s escape. The officer pushed the second subject back, but she again came at the officer, at which time he punched her. The second subject moved away and the officer was able to handcuff the first subject and place her in the back seat of his patrol car.

As the officer contacted and subsequently escorted the second subject over to his patrol car, she too tried to pull and twist away from him. The officer restrained her until backup officers arrived, at which time the second subject was handcuffed.

Suspect #1, a 19-year-old female, was booked into the King County Jail for Obstructing an Officer. Suspect #2, a 17-year-old female, was booked into the Youth Service Center for Investigation of Assault on an Officer. Both suspects were cited for j-walking. Nobody appeared to be injured as a result of the altercation. SFD medics responded and evaluated suspect #2 as a precautionary measure.

While I deplore police brutality on non-violent suspects, it appears in this case that the suspects started it by touching the officer. Now the part where officer asked the girls to wait at his car rather than go away gets me split once again. It's against the law in Seattle to j-walk (one of those attempts to use the law to protect dumb people from their own stupidity), so I think that the officer wanted to be fair in upholding the law. But then when the girls knew they'd be arrested they started mouthing off and eventually got physical.

So who's right in this case, the officer who punched a woman in apparent self-defense or the crowd who largely disapproved?

[Evergreen Emerald]

33. " placed her hands on the officer's arm"

That is not what the video shows: the video shows her hitting him.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

37. mark time 11 seconds in, apologize

or buy glasses. Soft hands to hard hands use of force continuum. She should have been tazed or sprayed, for pr reasons. That actually skips a step on the rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

38. You saw what you wanted and needed to see. There was no punch at all.

You owe the apology.

Do you know what a punch is?

And don't give me the BS double talk either.

I know what a punch is. You are playing games.

[Pavulon]

48. VIDEO: She hit him 11 sec mark. No one said punch. Not me, not the poster

she escalated the situation and got punched. That looks bad. He should have tazed or maced her.

[Bonobo]

51. Ha ha. "Hit" does not equal "punch". LOL. You should be a politician. nt

[Pavulon]

55. Soft hands escalate to hard hands.

thats how the rules work. These people were idiots and attacked him. He actually used less force than if sprayed them with OC.

[Bonobo]

61. Never should have got to that point. Shitty job by a shitty cop. nt

[noiretextatique]

227. actually...she pushed him, not hit him

and then he punched her.

[Evasporque]

162. The girl pushed the cop back and began to draw back her left fist as to strike...

That is when the cop decked her.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

165. Yep. She had her left up like she wanted to box. THAT'S when the cop tagged her in the nose.

[CLANG]

53. All he wanted to do was give them a ticket

Their refusal to obey his orders is what caused them to be arrested.

[defendandprotect]

260. Officer lost control of the situation . . . how should jaywalking escalate to punching and 5 police

cars having to respond? Put community policing in there to ticket jaywalkers --

education programs.

[NutmegYankee]

39. Having watched the uncut video, I think the Officer was right.

He was struggling with someone resisting arrest when the woman's cousin jumped in and committed battery (Shoved) against the Officer. Sorry folks - this has nothing to do with women versus men. This woman's act was criminal, and the Officer acted rightfully to quickly disable her and gain control of the situation to prevent the person he was detaining from escaping.

This has nothing to do with authoritarianism or violence against women or anything else like that.

[KT2000]

44. Agree!

You said it better than I did.

[pipoman]

84. Anyone who believes otherwise has no clue what

police objectives are or the tactics taught for dealing with these situations. Nobody was seriously injured, both subjects were detained, and the cop was able to go home to his family at the end of his shift....a successful action.

[Bonobo]

93. Frogs

"frog in a well"
Used to describe a situation or individual who cannot or refuses to see the big picture because of being sheltered and/or closed minded. This is the opposite of a frog in a field.
You have no idea what skills are required, as you have been a frog in a well for the last 30 years, stuck in the same old job with the same old skills. I have been a frog in a field jumping from job to job learning a vast amount of skills you have no idea about.



"Boiling frogs"
The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.

[Pavulon]

115. Mmm, tasty

[Bonobo]

122. So you have a sense of humor!

Who knew?

[pipoman]

159. You obviously don't know even the smallest detail about me

or about being charged with the task of law enforcement in the US.

edit..Actually after re-reading your post, you're simply an idiot to make such assertions about someone you know nothing about...simply an idiot..ass-u-me, well not me only yourself..there is another animal which really better describes people like you..

[MadMaddie]

139. Yup! I agree with you!

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NutmegYankee]

42. If the defenders cannot be reasoned with -

Why are you the one resorting to name calling?

[Pavulon]

49. Is 11 seconds evil? What should he do?

he should do his fucking job and arrest the person for assaulting him. Bunch of children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

52. He did a shitty job controlling the situation. Deny it all you want. nt

[Pavulon]

57. With what mind control? People are fucking stupid

those people were extra stupid. they assaulted him and he handled it. No one suffered lasting injury.

Better for the unwashed masses to consume if he just pepper sprayed her.

[Bonobo]

62. Does he have a brain, a voice? No need for it to have gotten to that point.

You need to raise the bar on your expectations a bit.

[Pavulon]

65. Yea the fatter stupid person should not have assaulted him

you can even see her boyfriend holding her back. He knows she is fucking stupid. You guys really do live on a different planet than the rest of us.

You cant attack a police officer and not expect a response.

[Bonobo]

67. He needs retraining in basic de-escalation skills. nt

[Pavulon]

69. He needed to call more officers and then spray her with OC

the video is crystal clear. If he were black or they were stupid and white your false concern would not even be shed.

Fucking stupid people assault the police, act surprised when this happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

70. Yup, they were stupid. But he is still a shitty cop who needs retraining. nt

[Pavulon]

74. What should he have done different at 11 sec?

oh learned one. I say he should have either been a black officer so no one would give a shit or sprayed her with OC, so as not to hit her and look bad for the USA today crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

75. He is shitty cop because he let it get to second 11.

A better cop would have read the signs, showed better judgment.

Poor job performance really should not be excused so easily.

[Pavulon]

78. He should have gotten in his car and ignored it all

then no one would ever act stupidly when confronted. His mistake was being white and not using pepper spray. Changing either variable would make this irrelevant.

The stupid people drove that incident. He reacted.

[Bonobo]

80. Low expectations. That's one of the biggest causes for incompetent job performance.

Too bad you have never seen what is possible when you combine brains, experience and judgment.

We should expect better.

[Pavulon]

87. I expect better from our police.

they would have had the first jackass on the ground with a knee in their back and arm in the chicken wing the other lit up with OC by second 6. But things are different here.

He was actually to passive. Our police expect scum behavior and behave accordingly.

[NutmegYankee]

79. It appears talking was tried - and failed due to no fault of the Officer.

The woman being arrested chose to walk away even after being warned she could be arrested.

[Vattel]

86. The amazing thing is how obvious it is that you are right.

People are even imagining that the cop was punched. Both those girls acted like complete idiots, but throwing that punch in response to a push was cowardly.

[Pavulon]

89. Soft hands to hard hands, going to OC would look better. 11 seconds

for the unwashed massed but would actually be overuse of force. They brought that response and that officer was not aggressive enough at first so they rolled with it. Guessed they learned the hard way.

Bottom line they were fucking stupid, and if they were white or he was black all this drama would be avoided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

97. "unwashed masses" is exactly how most cops talk about civilians as they drive in their cruisers.

That is a large part of the problem.

Are you a LEO? You sound like one.

[Pavulon]

103. Nope, never have been. Did serve with cops in the NG

and knew MPs. SOme were nice guys, some were pricks. You know, just like my wife's doctor coworkers. However I learned to recognize stupid people very early in life. This story is obviously driven by the race of the stupid people and the sensational image.

They could have shut the fuck up and taken the warning, or a bullshit ticket. You know how many bullshit tickets I got in school, plenty. No drama, because I always get them dismissed by a friend in the clerks office.

If he just sprayed them all no one would care, because it is all about looks.

I have had shitty jobs that no one understands though.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadMaddie]

137. Soooo what you are saying is that it is okay for anyone

to break existing law? Laws enacted to save lives?

Is that what you are saying? Are you saying the girls have no culpability in this situation?

What if the girls were hit and the officer just stood by and watched them? Would you blame the officer or the girls?

So in your eyes what if any responsibility do the girls have in this incident? I am going to guess you will say none.

People are getting killed by cars because they are jay walking. That's why we have the law. Maybe it doesn't happen where you live but it happens here on a regular basis.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

228. agreed....there is an insane belief in this country that authority

is always right. we are currently enmeshed in an illegal war because of the lies of authority, and yet some people believe "it" should always be unquestioned. having said that, those girls handled the situation poorly, and did the cop. but he was the one who was supposedly trained to handle this type of situation.

[SILVER__FOX52]

232. You said it very well....

[defendandprotect]

263. Have to K&R your post . . ..

:)

[Scout]

234. :rofl: not sure if i should keep laughing at you or feel sorry for you! n/t

[HardWorkingDem]

316. Please explain how YOU would have dealt with this....

Here's how these things usually start...

An officer sees a jaywalker and because the officer has been told by bosses that jaywalking is such an issue there is a zero-tolerance policy toward it and to issue citations.

So, Officer A sees one, two or a group of jaywalkers and stops them. Then, while dealing with this/these jaywalkers, the first offender/s tell the officer how come he/she/they are being stopped and then point to another group doing the same thing. At this point the officer has no other choice but to deal with them, too.

Now, anyone dealing with people in an urban environment knows that jaywalking is a problem and remains to be one and often times city politicians harangue local police for not doing anything about it.

But I'd like for people here who think this officer acted incorrectly to explain how he or she would deal with such things.

If the cop had sprayed the woman, and she was a WOMAN, with OC, he'd be vilified for that,if he had tased her, the same thing.

Behaviors and reactions are based on experience, training and education. I wish those that spend so much time on this incident, would do a google search for attacks on police and watch one-tenth of what police officers know for a fact.

The toughest man I ever knew was about five feet tall and wiry. One of the toughest people known to the police where I live was a woman; they dreaded fighting with her because was so tough and mean.

[KT2000]

43. Just what exactly did those girls

think was going to happen when they went after a cop?
They are just lucky he was not a K-9 cop and let the dog loose on them, or a taser.

Sorry - no sympathy for those brats - they caused what should have been a routine encounter to turn into something that could have ended much worse than it did.
It is not OK to beat on the police and resisting is resisting.

Seattle has always been strict on jay walking - everyone knows that. These girls knew that. The small WA town I live in is the same. The reason you don't jaywalk is because people get hit by cars and killed - as in dead forever.

I have a relative who is a cop and he has to put up with the dregs of society all day long - his choice though. But get beat on and then be expected to just stand there and take it?? No way.

Those girls do not need to be made into martyrs - they need to grow up and smarten up.

[MadMaddie]

134. Thank you! You are saying what I have been saying.

Everyone in Seattle knows the law. Besides what is a 10 second walk to the light and to cross legally?

They should have taken their citiation like all other Seattle folks do and moved on.

[KT2000]

158. Yes - I read your posts

and agree with you.
Do you know the location of the incident?
It looks to me like Rainier Ave & MLK Way. If that is the case, there have been many pedestrian fatalities in that area.

[MadMaddie]

188. I can't find the original article but I know that it was near a school

because the article said that school officials asked the police to step up patrols in the area.

[KT2000]

190. Thanks

found it in an article and it is near Franklin High School (where I went years ago).
It is a horrible intersection where two main thoroughfares connect. Lots of lanes, lights and turn only lanes that people are jockeying to get into or out of. Huge intersection.

[FailureToCommunicate]

177. ..."dregs of society"? Are jaywalkers that? I know you what you meant, but still we ALL

have been guilty of jaywalking...

[KT2000]

183. Do I really have to explain

that jaywalkers are not the dregs of society? My point is that their job is difficult and it is too much to ask of them to stand there and be shoved around and do nothing.

The intersection where this occurred is a very nasty intersection. It is where a main throroughfare joins another one. There are many lanes and lights to direct traffic. The two streets, have quite a history of pedestrian fatalities and pedestrian hit and runs. Next to that intersection is a high school so it is likely a place the police have been called upon to patrol for the safety of drivers and pedestrians.

I would like to see anyone in a car trying to negotiate the tricky intersection welcome jaywalkers - they are crossing at the least 4 to 6 lanes of traffic and possibly crossing into the middle of a huge intersection.
The cop had stopped a man who had jaywalked and then the girls jaywalked while he was with the man and called them over.

The other option is that someone gets killed jaywalking and the police will be called on the carpet for ignoring a known hazardous intersection.

[defendandprotect]

266. And . . . obviously something should be done to improve the intersection . . .

making it less dangerous for those crossing and for cars --

Jaywalkers are risking their own lives -- so why is that happening?

Further, using police officers to deal with jaywalking is quite an expensive if not

extravagant way to go!

[Scout]

309. "Jaywalkers are risking their own lives -- so why is that happening?"

ummmm, because they are too fucking lazy to use the over-the-street crosswalk??

[noiretextatique]

229. his training officer disagrees with you

i can understand why the cop lost it and did not follow procedure, but that's what he did. he escalated the situation to the point where he lost control....all because of jaywalking. sorry...that just doesn't rank as a real crime to me.

[defendandprotect]

265. You seem to have explained the problem quite clearly . . .

I have a relative who is a cop and he has to put up with the

dregs of society

all day long - his choice though. But get beat on and then be expected to just stand there and take it?? No way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

267. The red-shirt girl's boyfriend knew. He tried to restrain her from going after the cop. n/t

[liquid diamond]

59. I thought this would happen. And to think people here

were cheering this asshole on yesterday.

[FailureToCommunicate]

60. Jaywalking while Black. Same (very) old story.

(And before this gets locked by admins may I just politely say that board discussions around police, force response and race in America MAY WELL BE "political" in nature.)

[Pavulon]

66. Yep, if those were stupid white girls or a black cop

you would not be showering the stupid people on tape with your false concern. Stupidity is the root cause here.

Bottom line they were wrong, if you have problems with the police go to court, morons fight them in the street.

[FailureToCommunicate]

178. Oh, right, going to court always works out so well if you're Black...

:eyes:

[Scout]

235. fighting them in the streets works so much better! such ignorance on display

in this thread...

:rofl:

[NutmegYankee]

92. I don't think race really is a factor here.

The school requested police enforce the jaywalking law, and they did. Said woman chooses to ignore the cop and walks away from her ticket - cop warns her of consequence - she ignores this and walks away - Cop acts to detain her - She resists arrest - you know the rest.


This was really clear cut. No politics needed. I certainly have my complaints about police, especially SWAT use for the War On Drugs, but this is such a non-issue if you just look at it from the stance of upholding law.

[MadMaddie]

141. Sigh...We live in the Seattle Area

There are laws on the books that say jay walking is illegal.

It doesn't matter if you are white or black you will get a ticket.

What is so hard to understand about this.

Further more, the girls could have simply followed the law and walked to the light and crossed legally.

[FailureToCommunicate]

179. Fine. But where is the video of the cop arresting -and punching- teenage white girls

Rare as hens teeth.

[MadMaddie]

189. It is rare that it is on tape I agree. I am sure it has happened

before.

I might have an ounce of sympathy for these girls if they didn't have arrest records for the same behavior.

[FailureToCommunicate]

196. I am heartened that you have such a post 'Civil Right Era' attitude on this event.

Many here, myself included, can not forget injustices of those turbulent years and find it hard to not see things like this in stark terms of (white) authority and (non white) oppressed. I attended enough trials or funerals of friends from my neighborhood to know that discrimination was quite real in America...

I would like someday to have your apparent 'colorblind' sense of justice and fairness for things like this.



PS: We were out in your neck of the country last summer for a splendid camping and exploring visit to Seattle and the Olympic Coast.

Go Sounders!

[MadMaddie]

206. I totally understand and please don't think that I believe that

racism does not exist. I know it does and serious issues occur with the police. (I hope that we all will be able to see a color blind society before we each pass on)

It is fabulous here in the Northwest! The Sounders Rock!

Hope you get to visit again!!





:hi:

[FailureToCommunicate]

221. Thanks. Will do.

:hi:

[pipoman]

160. Or maybe jaywalking while wanted for a warrant?

I don't know, but that could explain why this person thought it was a good idea to resist arrest, and even if she doesn't have a warrant, at this point the cop doesn't know anything, but he has a person who is resisting arrest.

[KT2000]

186. Here is an idea

I was trying to figure out how to do google maps but can't get it to work for me.

if you know how - look up Franklin High School, Seattle WA and examine the streets: Rainier Ave and Martin Luther King Way
That will give you an idea how dangerous that intersection is.

[FailureToCommunicate]

199. Okay I google mapped it. It looks no more dangerous than a zillion other busy roads

by urban high schools. When we start seeing videos of police arresting white high school girls for jaywalking and punching them in the face, I'll accept that this incident was not about race.

[KT2000]

207. Oh brother

did you see my other response?
This is a very bad intersection. It involves several traffic lights and lanes of traffic - a lane for right turn only, left turn only, and straight. Traffic is jockeying for their preferred lanes.
It intersects with a large thoroughfare that is also several lanes. That actual intersection is large and confusing.
Another group of drivers is preparing to get into their lanes for access to the next major road which accesses a highway.

To jaywalk there a person would be crossing 4 to 6 lanes of traffic and if they are not obeying the lights, they could be hit by cars that are obeying their arrow lights some going fast.

I know there are instances when people are harassed with jaywalking tickets but this is not one of those. This is an area where pedestrians have been killed.
The police were requested to patrol the intersection for jaywalking by the school, I heard.
What are they supposed to do? Let everyone jaywalk and let the bodies pile up? Is that better? As it was, the cop had cited a man when the girls jaywalked in front of him and he called them over.

That girl was not punched in the face for jaywalking - it was because she went after the cop. Watch the whole video. This is not the issue you think it is.

[FailureToCommunicate]

208. I know it's not about jaywalking. It's about stepped up, unevenly applied enforcement

pedestrians vs 'jaydrivers' and about resisting arrest. If you are black you get more force used so much more often that this is not an outlier.

The cop was just doing his job, I know. Kids near a high school (no matter how dangerous the intersection) were just being knuckleheads. And turning what should have been a warning or ticket into a felony charge that will stick with that girl

forever seems unjust. And it wouldn't have gone to that if she were white.

[KT2000]

212. Answer #1

Two rebuttals: Of course it would have happened to a white girl if she was mouthing off and shoving a cop under those circumstances.
My relative who is a K-9 cop let the dog loose on a white girl who mouthed off, resisted and ran away into the woods. She came out of the woods with her arm stuck between the dog's teeth. She had punched the dog.

As for the girls - they need to get straight and quick. Making them martyrs will only make matters worse for them. Anger management maybe? Lessons about where they are headed if they don't straighten up?
From Seattle Times:
Their names are Rosenthal and Levias

Rosenthal was charged in November with second-degree robbery. According to prosecutors, she punched a 15-year-old boy in the face while she and a group of youths were on their way to a rave in South Seattle last Aug. 28. The boy told police that his cellphone and $20 were stolen in the incident. A 14-year-old boy told police that he was punched in the head and his hat was stolen.

Authorities say the case was dismissed when the boys refused to testify.

In April 2008, Rosenthal was charged with third-degree theft after she allegedly stole a minivan in Tukwila, prosecutors said. Kent police said she used a screwdriver to break the ignition and start the vehicle.

The charge was later amended to theft of a motor vehicle. Rosenthal was given a deferred disposition — charges would be dropped if she stayed out of trouble — because it was a first-time offense, said Ian Goodhew, deputy chief of staff for Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg.

Levias was charged in February 2009 with third-degree assault after she allegedly pushed a King County sheriff's deputy down.

According to charging documents, on Feb. 3, 2009, deputies were called to the Ruth Dykeman Children's Center, a Burien center for troubled girls, in response to a report that Levias was being abusive toward staff. When Levias was confronted by Deputy Amy Zarelli, she pushed the female deputy, causing her to fall, charging papers said.

Levias was given a deferred disposition because it was a first-time offense, Goodhew said.

[FailureToCommunicate]

219. You may find a handful of examples of your take on this. I've got the vast collection of

racial profiling and statistics of who gets arrested and who is in jail because of their skin color. Any "priors" on these kids, flimsy at these sound, were not known by the officer at the time and do not fundamentally change things except in the eyes of the cluck clucking commentators.

Anyway, I'm afraid diverting as all this is, I need to get back to work.

[KT2000]

213. Answer #2

Another article about that particular spot.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012146689_pedestrian18m.html

Have to agree with Michael Dixon on this.

[FailureToCommunicate]

220. See response #205 below or see this link:

link:

http://www.seattlemet.com/issues/archives/articles/0808-urbanbrawl/

[noiretextatique]

231. bingo....

that's exactly what it's about. here in oakland, ca, the parking enforcement agency was recently embarrassed when a memo was leaked to the press. the memo told parking officers to issue warning notices in the wealthy, mostly white areas of the city, but to issues tickets in the poorer, mostly black and latino areas of the city. many in white america are blissfully ignorant about selective enforcement that is designed to criminalize as many poor whites, black and brown people as possible.

[defendandprotect]

268. Agree --- that can't be ignored --

Of 8-10 cops there -- looked like one officer of color from 5 patrol cars!!

It's an overuse of a cop and car, anyway. Put a crossing guard there --

using community policing.

[Prometheus Bound]

68. So the girls will be heroes and the cop a laughingstock. Nationally. Even internationally.

Unfortunate for the young cop. Oh, the humiliation. I guess his boss thought he could handle jaywalking detail on his own. Can you imagine the older cop who showed up letting things escalate like that? Inexperience? Poor training? Stupidity? The thrill of power?

[Bonobo]

71. All of the above. That cop needs some serious training.

Remember what Duvall told Penn in "Colors"?

About the old bull?

[Prometheus Bound]

81. No. What was that?

[Bonobo]

83. Here you go. Don't want to spoil the punchline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbUxePfsoWE

[Prometheus Bound]

88. Oh damn. That was good. Have to buy that DVD.

[Pavulon]

72. No they are stupid. And will probably continue being stupid

the only reason anyone fucking cares is because they are black and he is white. If this were a black officer or stupid white girls no one would give a shit.

Regretfully the people whose decisions are based on emotion do not understand the escalation from soft hands to hard hands. Had he just sprayed her with OC, it would have looked better to the ignorant and uninformed.

See here, 11 seconds. Stupid act generates response. Remember children if you have a problem with the police go to court. That is where you fight and win.

Nation of morons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UatHtkJY3kc

[Bonobo]

73. Real crappy, inexperienced cops should be given desk duty.

That is one shitty cop who should be retrained before he gets someone seriously hurt or he hurts someone.

[Pavulon]

76. And stupid fuckers should hang themselves

and leave us a world free of morons who hit police officers over parking tickets. Jesus christ you guys are dense. He did his job EXACTLY correct. If he sprayed them he would be skipping a step in the continuum. Now if he were black or they were stupid and white you would be commenting about something else because this would not be news.

[Bonobo]

77. I guess you have a beef with the Seattle police then.

They think he needs more training.

That was one poor-ass excuse for a police officer.

[Pavulon]

82. Thats called PR. Like going on leave after someone gets shot

and designed to give the ignorant the appearance that they actually give a shit. His lack of aggression actually escalated the situation. By not putting the first person down face first with a knee in the back the other person felt they could pull that shit.

Very simple. His posture is defensive.

But hey its easy for me to make informed postings and for the rest of you guys to make emotion based responses while not actually there.

[Bonobo]

85. Well, people embedded in a system rarely have the perspective to judge it objectively.

So your defensiveness, blindness to other solutions and approaches and lack of broad perspective is entirely understandable.

But it is unlikely to result in any productive dialog.

[Pavulon]

91. Answer my question please. What should he have done?

one person is not complying with a legal request and another physically assaults him?

Come on post an answer.

[Bonobo]

95. The answer that you don't really want to deal with is that it should not have gotten to that point.

I will answer your question if you answer mine, ok?

MY ANSWER: At second 11, when he was pushed, he should have taken out his mace and threatened, loudly, to use it. Most people do not want to be maced. More likely then not, it would have worked. But since he was not in danger of physical harm from that woman, he need not have punched her in the face. It was a bad choice for more than the reason that it was nasty. It also further enraged the crowd of onlookers, further escalating the tensions.

MY QUESTION: Do you think that it displayed good judgment to allow jaywalking to result in that action? What was gained and what was lost in the equation? The police are not judges or punishers. They are there to enforce laws, using reasonable judgment relative to the importance of the crimes committed. Based on that, don't you think it was a bad outcome?

[Pavulon]

100. We agree, OC would look better for the unwashed and ill informed

he should have sprayed them both with OC and left them in the street face down and cuffed. But I stopped judging stuff on how it looks vs how it is supposed to be done long ago. He was passive and paid the price. His judgement was to be reactive and defensive in an attempt to control the situation.

If he had immediately dropped the struggler in a compliance hold the second stupider one would have not gotten involved. And if she did, OC or a baton would be just fine. If he were black or they were white no one would care.

Jaywalking, speeding, public intox, are all petty. The actions of the stupid people drove this event. The police enforce laws, if we dont like that we should challenge the law in court. Leaving the officer discretion on what laws to enforce breeds bad behavior and discrimination.

If it is illegal it should be illegal for blacks, whites, rich and poor.

Fighting like that is really stupid. At the end of the day those idiots caused the problem, not the officer.

[Bonobo]

102. Police use their own judgment weighing the seriousness of the crime vs the potential

for escalation all the time. Who are you kidding?

It was poor judgment all around by the poorly trained cop.

Laying the blame on the civilians won't solve any problems. The police are trained to deal with things better. Or they are given a pink slip.

[Pavulon]

105. Yeah, pretty sure his job is safe.

pretty sure that if that stunt was pulled here on a black officer or female officer the same response or one far more aggressive would have happened. Calling people "civilians" does not change the fact that are amoeba like stupid. They got exactly what was to be expected in that situation, got off light on a new guy.

[MadMaddie]

143. The right answer is the girls knew the law and should have

simply followed the law. There would be no incident.

They willfully broke the law and when they got caught they acted stupidly.

They have the culpability in this situation.

[defendandprotect]

269. So, you think if the cop could re-do this, he'd do it the same way?

:rofl:

Or would you recommend more force immediately?

[Vattel]

101. Pushing the one girl back would have been plenty force,

then talk to both girls so that they don't leave the area before backup arrives (if possible get both girls to sit down and relax), wait for backup, and then cuff.

[Pavulon]

107. Yeah, they were complying with verbal commands

the one who refused to be arrested seemed real compliant. You guys live on a different planet. This is reality at 45 seconds. See there is your pretty please do what I say.

He should have put her on the ground face first and sprayed the fatter stupid one. He should also have been black and no one would give a shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzcYdg786sc&feature=related

[Vattel]

116. Sure, and you know that they would have fled the scene

if he hadn't punched one of them in the face.

[Pavulon]

119. The who fighting and resisting part are clues.

he should have come to work black that day and saved himself some drama. or been fortunate enough to run into some of the many stupid white girls in seattle.

All about emotion and appearances.

[Bonobo]

120. And what if it had been a big black cop punching a suburban white teen princess

in the middle or Orange County?

What would happen in that case in your opinion?

[CLANG]

151. Race has nothing to do with this.

[Bonobo]

156. Stay out of it, Clang. Pavulon thinks race has EVERYTHING to do with it,

And that is why I was directing my question to HIM, not YOU.

[defendandprotect]

270. Naive -- race always has something to do with police enforcement -- and our prisons!!

and so will gender --

among many other things!

[Pavulon]

161. She would still have a black eye. And still be really stupid

just like these people. Race and gender have a role here. But not in HIS reactions, but in the reactions of people when watching this tape.

They are not everything.

[TPaine7]

182. "If this were a black officer or stupid white girls no one would give a shit."

Really? You think if a little blond was punched in the face, no one would care? Even if the cop where black?

LOL.

Ask yourself how many missing persons cases of black girls are drooled over by the medial for years after their disappearance. Find a black example like JonBenét Ramsey or Natalie Holloway.

Brutality by cops is a good story. Period. I still remember watching a video on CNN of a white cop threatening a white boy and basically challenging him to a fight--without committing any physical violence. (The boy had a camera in his car recording the threats and harassment.) I have little doubt that a white girl could have made the cut.

I don't think race is as big a factor in police brutality cases as you do, but if race were a factor, young white girls are at the pinnacle of America's concern. And you couldn't ask for a better story than a black cop punching a white teen-aged girl. It would have the same racial dynamic as the OJ case. You've heard of that one, haven't you?

[Pavulon]

192. Remember that case where two black officers broke the law and beat a black

suspect in an elevator. Beat him severely. NO? Because it is does not fit the mold of attention grabber.

Those guys were in the wrong and should have been charged and fired. This guy is in the right.

I am not saying race is the ONLY issue but it is an issue. Personally I could care less the race of any of the actors. Stupidity was the prime mover.

All the rest is just drama.

[TPaine7]

194. Remember when I said that "young white girls are at the pinnacle of America's concern"?

Guess who's at the polar opposite end?

This nation cares to some degree about white-on-black police brutality and racism in general due to a little history. You may have heard of it.

But no one, no one who isn't black and doesn't live in the ghetto, cares about the victims of black-on-black crime. It's not associated with that history. And black cop on black citizen crime? With a black male victim? There is less than no concern about that, there is secret approval. (Among some black folks, too.) They KNOW the victim was guilty.

But punching a white teenager in the face wouldn't make the news when verbally threatening a white boy would make national news on CNN?!

We live on different planets.

[flvegan]

94. Good for the cop. He did the right thing.

He's alone, surrounded and struggling with a crim. Along comes another crim, assaulting him. Had he fallen, he may well have been compromised. I'm no police apologist, but if you start shoving, hitting, reaching at a police officer acting in his/her line of duty, get ready to get your bell rightfully ringing.

Frankly, she's lucky she didn't get shot.

[Bonobo]

98. LOL. nt

[flvegan]

104. Care to explain?

[Bonobo]

106. Sometimes things just make me chuckle. I should have been more discrete. Sorry. nt

[Pavulon]

108. My frogs like blotter acid.. They help me post(nt)

[Bonobo]

113. Frogs can absorb the acid directly through membranes on their skin! nt

[Pavulon]

117. So can people.. There is actually an equation

based on the concentration of a drug for uptake amounts by dermal exposure. So THC or LSD could easily be administered by patch..

[flvegan]

111. No worries.

Lots of folks have no point, nothing to add, no understanding yet post responses like yours. It's okay.

[Vattel]

109. Sure, you can have your laugh,

but if that had been you out there, a lone vegan facing a group of menacing meat-eaters, you would have been shaking in your imitation leather boots. Afterall, they might have been carrying steak knives, or glass bottles of A-1 sauce.

[Pavulon]

110. Do frogs count as meat? or are they like chicken?

A1 on frog legs..mmm

[Bonobo]

112. Oh My God! nt

[flvegan]

114. Is that what you really think?

[Vattel]

121. wait a minute

I thought you were being sarcastic. The whole "crim" and "another crim" stuff was really funny. Come on flvegan, don't take advantage of my gullibility.

[Bonobo]

124. He was being serious. That was my read. It was why I chuckled spontaneously. nt

[Vattel]

135. Damn, I really misread that one.

[Bonobo]

138. Well you gave me the laugh of a lifetime with your reply.

I had to pick my jaw up off the floor!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[flvegan]

145. Non-answer.

I'll chalk that one up. Thanks.

[Bonobo]

148. Uh-oh, you're chalked!

[flvegan]

149. It's all good. n/t

[Bonobo]

150. Ouch. Touche! nt

[defendandprotect]

272. Happily, the crowd were amazingly intelligent -- controlled --

I'm surprised one of the cops didn't take the cell phones --

realizing there would be video.

[defendandprotect]

271. Right -- the cop will probably get a promotion -- !!!

[Prometheus Bound]

96. Please don't lock this thread. It's hilarious!

I have the uncontrollable giggles.

[Randomthought]

99. Cops always fear for their safety

Give me break. Who's wearing the bullet proof vest? And who is "in fear for their life"?

Cops are cowards.

[proteus_lives]

123. "Cops are cowards"

:eyes:

Mr. Internet Tough Guy has spoken.

[Bonobo]

126. You have to be tough to be allowed to criticize people in your world?

[proteus_lives]

128. No but come one, that statement was ridiculous.

He is free to criticize but I'm also feel to mock.

[Bonobo]

133. Well...

Okay. It was a bit over the top. I agree.

On this one. But you're on probation, bub.

[proteus_lives]

140. "But you're on probation, bub."

Story of my life man, story of my life.

[CLANG]

152. Some people live in a dream world.

[Bonobo]

155. Some people live in the hellish world of their own making. nt

[MadMaddie]

147. Then I suggest you go on a ride along with your local cops

and see what kind of cowards they are.

They deal with the shit the good people don't see. It doesn't matter what socioeconomic level people live in they treat each other like shit.

Next time you have an emergency don't run to the phone and call 911 apparantly you are trained enough to defend yourself.

[defendandprotect]

273. We're militarizing them -- "We had to burn the village to save it!" --

Remember that one?

[proteus_lives]

125. Those two women belong in jail.

The LEO's response was justified.

[Prometheus Bound]

144. Auditors have cited concerns with Seattle police jaywalking stops

Auditors have cited concerns with Seattle police jaywalking stops
June 16, 2010
Auditors who oversee complaints against Seattle police officers have repeatedly expressed concerns about jaywalking stops and minor street confrontations that escalate into physical altercations, and they say better training is needed.

At least four auditor reports since 2004 — the most recent last year — have flagged the issue, which is receiving renewed attention in the wake of Monday's videotaped jaywalking stop in which an officer punched a 17-year-old girl after she shoved him.

"It is just awful it is again a jaywalking incident," said Kate Pflaumer, who served as civilian auditor in the Seattle Police Department's Office of Professional Accountability from 2003 to 2009. "It's very distressing."

Pflaumer, in an interview Wednesday, declined to address Monday's incident but said the department hasn't done enough de-escalation training to teach officers how to deal with jaywalkers who ignore them, challenge their authority and get upset because they don't think they have committed an important infraction.

"It's a difficult crux for officers, and I think it takes a lot of training," said Pflaumer, a former U.S. attorney in Seattle.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012136804_coppunch17m.html

[Bonobo]

146. It is obvious, There is something called "proportionate response".

It is obvious. Just take one step back from the kool-aid and you can see the truth of this situation.

[CLANG]

153. You are apparently swimming in the stuff.

[alp227]

157. This earlier Seattle Times article reported the same thing

Seattle police to review tactics, officer's conduct after videotaped punch (June 15, 2010)

Jennifer Shaw, deputy director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington, said in a written statement that Monday's incident wasn't an isolated one.

"The SPD has a long history of allowing jaywalking citations to escalate into use-of-force situations," Shaw said. "The pattern is very predictable: The officer sees a jaywalker, orders the person to come to him, gets angry when the jaywalker either doesn't respond or argues, and ends up either in a physical confrontation or an arrest for an obstruction charge or both."

Also, a noted community member says both are in the wrong.

James Kelly, chief executive officer of the Urban League of Metropolitan Seattle, said Seattle police called him Monday to alert him to the incident.

Kelly, during a news conference Tuesday with African-American community leaders, called Walsh's punch an overreaction. "The provocation by this 17-year-old kid may have presented a confrontation situation, but the use of violence in the form of a full punch in the face was just plain wrong," he said in a statement.

"This is another case where we are standing here, saying, 'shame on you' to the Seattle police," he said, referring to the April 17 incident.

In that incident, also videotaped, two officers kicked and stomped a prone robbery suspect. One officer kicked the Latino man while he was lying on the sidewalk and shouted, "I'm going to beat the Mexican piss out of you, homey. You feel me?" Officers later let the man go after realizing he was the wrong person.

Kelly said he wanted to be clear that what the 17-year-old girl had done Monday was wrong and that her actions "only helped escalate an already tense situation. ... I am making no excuses for her. But two wrongs don't make a right."

[defendandprotect]

275. Again, easy way to fill the jails . . . . and has anyone noticed that a large

percentage of our jails are filled with AAs and people of color?

[FailureToCommunicate]

205. Jaywalking, and escalating to more serious charges, because of police focus

on a far greater number of enforcements of jaywalking compared to more serious vehicle infraction 'jaydriving'

Yes I know this incident is mostly about resisting arrest, but there is a city wide pattern as the infraction escalates predictably, somewhat like police chase for running a red light (misdemeanor) turn into resisting arrest (felony) or death sentence if the chase turns into an accident...


"Last year police ticketed 2,524 wayward walkers. They ticketed fewer than one-sixth as many drivers—call them “jaydrivers”—who failed to yield to pedestrians at crosswalks, the violation that most directly threatens law-abiding walkers. (Pedestrians generally have the legal right of way at intersections, with or without marked crosswalks, unless signals specify otherwise.)

Officers in patrol cars “have a windshield perspective on the world,” complains David Hiller, advocacy director for the Cascade Bicycle Club, the leading local cyclists’ group. “They see someone jaywalking in front of them and they give a ticket”—whether or not that jaywalking interferes with drivers or endangers the walker. But, Hiller contends, -police tend to ticket only reckless drivers who’ve caused accidents. And they violate the yield-to-pedestrians law just like other drivers."

link:
http://www.seattlemet.com/issues/archives/articles/0808-urbanbrawl/

[defendandprotect]

276. Interesting insights into what is happening there --

[defendandprotect]

274. Same as stopping "illegals" in Arizona ...

Same as Mayor Guiliani did in having cops arrest kids jumping turnstiles in subways --

easy way to fill the jails!

[boppers]

154. A history of resisting arrest, and a history of assaulting on officer?

Both of them can expect to be held at gunpoint, without flinching, for the rest of their lives.

Which may be short, sadly.

[S_B_Jackson]

163. Perhaps, if the one had identified herself when asked, so the officer could complete her citation...

same thing would happen to you or I had during a traffic stop. And had the second girl not assaulted a police officer in the commission of his duty, perhaps he would not have needed to respond with physical force, and ultimately placing her under arrest. Let's not mistake these two young ladies as "innocents"......
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012122660_coppunch16m.html

[pipoman]

167. Punching her in the face

worked just as it is supposed to...she was obstructing the cop and assisting a person who was resisting arrest. He smacked her in the nose. She forgot instantly about fighting when she couldn't see for the tears. She retreated to nurse her painful nose. The cop completed his arrest, then held the person who committed a battery on him until his backup arrived. This is text book cop.

Those silly apes on this thread who are most critical have not once been responsible for anything beyond a Japanese frog farm, reading frog literature, and jumping from lily pad to toad stool trying to get better view of other people's reality.

[Bonobo]

168. Want some cheese with your whine? nt

[pipoman]

169. The only whining in this thread

is by a few know-nothing-know-it-alls who wouldn't last 1 day dealing with other know-nothing-know-it-alls.

[JoeyT]

175. Well being arrested isn't supposed to be fun.

I'm usually the one of the first people to jump on the cops over a video where they use excessive violence, especially against women, and will probably continue to be. The thing is: this video isn't one of those times. No one got sprayed, tazed, or shot after repeatedly resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer. If her nose isn't broken, the force wasn't disproportionate. Being tazed or sprayed would have hurt a lot more for a lot longer.

What, exactly, was the cop supposed to do? Walk off because the jaywalking citation wasn't worth the trouble? All that would do is encourage everyone to resist everything. Striking her with an open hand would've caused the same amount of outrage. Tazing her or pepper spraying her would have caused even more faux outrage. If he'd called for backup everyone would cry about how he was "afraid" to face a few women by himself. There was pretty much nothing he could have done that would have made some people happy short of walking away immediately and showing people that fighting the cops is the ideal method of avoiding a ticket.

[demoleft]

180. indeed. but what intrigues me is the italian-like outcome: "back to training, though u're right"

"transferred temporarily to the department's training unit" - which i understand. on one side the police want to shield itself, on the other has to make a move to appease the public opinion.

and it's grotesque: if the cop acted right, why should the police revise the training systems or he go back to the dept training unit?

inconsistency à la italian, which i do not expect from US.
ciao

[JoeyT]

185. Yeah, that actually kind of surprised me.

Had he kicked in their door in full SWAT gear, shot their dog, burned their kid with a flash grenade, and beaten them to a pulp, only to discover he had the wrong address, they'd be circling the wagons and giving him a medal for his bravery.
It's bizarre.

[pipoman]

211. I believe the answer is

found in scotus rulings finding public law enforcement agencies are responsible for the acts of public employees only under distinct circumstances. One of the circumstances being failure to properly train the employees. The result being, almost every time there is a controversy, agencies immediately announce retraining or review of procedure with officers/agents. Then they either send out a memo or someone instructs officers on department policies (not public information due to another scotus ruling iirc)...it's about damage control and limiting liability.

[MrSlayer]

191. Pathetic. She's lucky he didn't break out the nightstick on her dumb ass.

Given the situation I'd say he exercised admirable restraint. No retraining needed.

[DiverDave]

193. Nope, he did fine

I witnessed a cop-stupid person confrontation when I was in Germany.
A drunk G.I. jerked his arm from the cop, he just tapped him on the head with his stick.
The idiot went down.
The cops there explained they didnt want to get hurt, it was easier to just give em a tap.
I didnt fuck with the polizi- I didnt want that stick upside my head.

She was lucky she didnt do that in Scwabach.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

195. Video clearly shows her assaulting a police officer.

People claiming she was punched because she jaywalked, because she's black, or because she's a women are being intentionally dishonest.

[Prometheus Bound]

215. "we do have a number of concerns about the tactics the officer used" (acting deputy police chief )

June 17, 2010 1:13 PM
Cop Punches Woman (VIDEO): Were Cop's Actions Justified?

<snip>But many community groups are outraged over what they call an example of police brutality. Seattle Urban League CEO James Kelly says the cell phone video of the incident brings to mind an April 17 video of Seattle police kicking a Hispanic suspect.

"Force never looks good. It's never pretty," acting deputy police chief Nick Metz said of the jaywalking incident. "We do train in the use of punching we do have a number of concerns about the tactics the officer used and employed at the time."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20008037-504083.html

[panzerfaust]

218. Transferred toTRAINING unit?

Presumably as an instructor then?

[hayu_lol]

223. The officer shown actually showed lots of restraint in...

trying to prevent harm to the 1st girl. When the 2nd girl got into the fracas, she got between the officer and the 1st girl he was attempting to put restraints on.

What he should have done was grab the first girl by the hair on the back of her neck, forced her head into the car hood with considerable force. There would have been no need then for the 2nd girl to get involved. Hmmmm...that sound about right?

The guy kept trying not to hurt either girl. That much is obvious.

He did it right, they did it wrong. Maybe the two will have some time at juvie to think about their actions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

224. I think he erred on not being aggressive enough, actually.

As soon as he was assaulted he should have gotten the woman cuffed and into his patrol car immediately. He just sort of wrangles the both of them around for a couple of minutes without doing anything decisive. And he lets the second woman go completely.

I'd assume that's why he's back in training.

[defendandprotect]

277. Ask yourself, why would anyone be arrested for jaywalking . . .

You need community people handling this -- beginning with educating both

pedestrians and drivers -- and improving dangerous intersections.

Accidents are happening because drivers aren't stopping for pediastrians --

not because pedestrians are smashing into cars!

[pipoman]

279. We can only speculate

I once read a statistic that 1 person in 20 that a city police officer makes contact with has an outstanding warrant for their arrest. Police are trained to be suspicious and cautious with every contact. Giving each person the benefit of the doubt will get the officer killed or seriously injured sooner or later.

Now, consider this scenario. The officer was walking his beat. There have been 10 car/pedestrian fatalities on his beat over the last couple of years. He sees 2 women preparing to jaywalk. He says, "hey, come here", and walks toward them. They tell him to kiss their ass, fuck off, or some such. He requests their ID. They refuse. At this point what do you do if you are the officer? Walk away and let them jaywalk away? No, you now demand their ID. If they refuse, you take them into custody until they are positivel;y identified and determined to not have warrants. The first one resists being lawfully detained and begins fighting, the second intervenes. This cop acted in the only way he could to get control of the situation. Nobody was seriously injured. Both women were placed in custody, now it is no longer about a warning not to jaywalk, now it is battery of a police officer or resisting arrest or both.

Where on this planet can you get away with attacking a police officer who is asking you for identification? Where?

[defendandprotect]

280. Right . . . it's what Arizona is hoping for ... and it's what Mayor Guiliani did . . .

easy way to fill the prisons?



We can only speculate
I once read a statistic that 1 person in 20 that a city police officer makes contact with has an outstanding warrant for their arrest. Police are trained to be suspicious and cautious with every contact. Giving each person the benefit of the doubt will get the officer killed or seriously injured sooner or later.

We don't need to speculate. We know and police officers know that they are being miitarized.

That the Drug War is phony -- and is being carried over into basic driving violations -- speeding,

illegal turns, whatever. And it makes traffic stops very dangerous.

Drug War is handy for elites -- creates fear of neighbors for citizens -- fear of juveniles --

and for police, FEAR of every citizen! Could be a drug addict -- could be a dealer -- could have

a gun! But there's no need for all this crap --

End purpose is protecting illegal profits of Drug War for elites while corrupting our government

and agencies, Customs, police enforcement -- elected officials! It's also being used to co-opt

other sovereign nations with intrustions onto their land for spraying, inspections, etal.

All the same thing as what Arizona is doing.

It's one kind or another of profiling -- same old story.


Now, consider this scenario. The officer was walking his beat. There have been 10 car/pedestrian fatalities on his beat over the last couple of years. He sees 2 women preparing to jaywalk. He says, "hey, come here", and walks toward them. They tell him to kiss their ass, fuck off, or some such. He requests their ID. They refuse. At this point what do you do if you are the officer? Walk away and let them jaywalk away? No, you now demand their ID. If they refuse, you take them into custody until they are positivel;y identified and determined to not have warrants. The first one resists being lawfully detained and begins fighting, the second intervenes. This cop acted in the only way he could to get control of the situation. Nobody was seriously injured. Both women were placed in custody, now it is no longer about a warning not to jaywalk, now it is battery of a police officer or resisting arrest or both.

Where on this planet can you get away with attacking a police officer who is asking you for identification? Where?

The first and most obvious thing here is tht this seems to be a very dangerous intersection

with nothing being done about it! Jaywalkers are the ones getting killed.

And, so they hadn't even jaywalked yet -- they were PREPARING TO JAYWALK!!

If the TRUE purpose is to save lives, how about the officer goes over to them and chats with them

about why he can't let them cross there for their own sake?

How about crossing guards -- how about changes to the intersection to make it safer --

How about ensuring that drivers slow down in that area and STOP for pedestrians!!

[pipoman]

281. Well...

we probably agree about the drug war. That has nothing to do with this case. Certainly you are not stating that all warrants are for drug related offenses, or that all crime is drug related?

And, so they hadn't even jaywalked yet -- they were PREPARING TO JAYWALK!!

If the TRUE purpose is to save lives, how about the officer goes over to them and chats with them

about why he can't let them cross there for their own sake?

And how do you know that isn't exactly what the officer attempted to do? I happen to think that is exactly what he was doing when they defied him or began arguing with him...they escalated this.

How about crossing guards -- how about changes to the intersection to make it safer --

How about ensuring that drivers slow down in that area and STOP for pedestrians!!

That is exactly what they have done by having pedestrian cross walks and presumably traffic lights to stop traffic while pedestrians cross...these two decided to ignore these things AND obstructed the police officer who was placed there to insure people followed the rules.

Again I ask: Where on this planet can you get away with attacking a police officer who is asking you for identification? Where?

[defendandprotect]

288. Where can police officers get away with abusing civil rights may be the more

appropriate question --

The Drug War is involved in the psychology of the police department --

just as "illegal aliens" are involved in it in Arizona -- by allusion.

It's the Drug War seeping over the border into Arizona which is creating their crime

problems --

The shadow of the Drug War is hovering over ALL police activity -- whether traffic violations

or any other interaction with citizens.

Evidently you don't realize that?


Re the jaywalking -- why would these women "defy" him or "argue with him" if it was just

a non-threatening conversation? You're suggesting they wanted to escalate it into an arrest?

If the intersection has been approved -- as you're suggesting -- they should only need a crossing

guard there -- not a police officer.


Again I ask: Where on this planet can you get away with attacking a police officer who is asking you for identification? Where?



Are you suggesting you were there and know exactly what happened? Of course you don't know.

Neither do I. But we have seen that this officer was not sufficiently trained -- and is

being RETRAINED now.

The reality is that a simple jaywalking incident was allowed to turn into a full blow incident --

5 police cars. And two arrests.

Your question is ridiculous, btw.

Where is any citizen these days protected from police brutality -- whether protesting or at

a traffic stop where they feel forced into a drug inspection? "Throw-downs" and having drugs

planted? Where are citizens protected from false arrest -- even when peacefully protesting?

After they retrain this guy -- they should throw him back.

[pipoman]

289. I spent the better part of 20 years

in opposition to law enforcement as a criminal defense detective. I am a civil libertarian.

why would these women "defy" him or "argue with him" if it was just a non-threatening conversation?

Because they are spoiled brats, because they are 17 years old, because they hate police as much as you do, who knows..People, especially young people, do in fact escalate for no other reason than to be brats. They get away with it with teachers and their parents, they will not get away with it with law enforcement...so yes, given the amount of restraint this officer demonstrated I do believe these girls did in fact resist arrest and commit battery on the cop.

If the intersection has been approved -- as you're suggesting -- they should only need a crossing guard there -- not a police officer.

Where do you live that employs 'crossing guards' for adults? I see them in school zones, I have never seen one in an urban/commercial area. Most 8 year olds understand the concept of crossing busy streets at pedestrian crossings when the signal allows for crossing. Obviously these morons refused to follow the rules or we wouldn't be discussing this. What is an "approved" intersection?

You apparently hate law enforcement and/or believe some sort of anarchy is better than ceding authority to public officers. Further, the 'logic' displayed in your post appears to be similar to the demonstrably erroneous logic of your sig line.

[Bonobo]

291. Fish swim in water. Yet they have no idea what water is.

Just like the smug frog that doesn't realize the well it lives in is not the entire world.

[pipoman]

293. You never did tell me

where on this earth, a person can attack a police officer physically and not end up getting their ass kicked? Hell many (if not most) places a person will get their ass kicked for peaceful defiance of police.

Further why does such a worldly soul as you bother (or for that matter have time) to hang out on a evil US political forum? Is there a forum in your beloved Japan which is similar, you know, a safe haven for anyone who feels compelled to publicly state their distrust, disagreement, or even hatred for Japan or the Japanese government? You do realize that this incident happened in the US? You do realize that these idiots will be tried and convicted in US courts? You do realize that regardless your objection to US law, it is meaningless, come on over here and attack a cop sometime, you will be trying to hire someone to defend your stupid ass...better yet attack a cop in Tokyo and report back how the cop took a monkey's ass kicking..

[Bonobo]

295. The problem is in your definition of attack.

If you think that woman posed a threat to that police officer's physical safety to the extent that he had to deliver a punch with that much force, then I think you need your head examined.

As to the rest of your post, it is so devoid of any pertinence that it is hardly worth responding to, except to say that a Japanese police officer most likely would simply have grabbed the woman's arms until she realized that she was in the grip of someone much stronger and with better defense skills, as well as the authority to put her away.

Watch this video and see how it is done in Japan: And this guy is way more dangerous and verbally threatening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnPykaGjHc&feature=related

[pipoman]

296. How much force is that?

Enough to send her running away? The reports say she was uninjured as in no broken nose, or bones. And yes, this cop had his hands full with the one idiot when the other idiot committed a text book battery on him. He has a gun. Do I need to post stories of police officers being shot with their own gun taken off of them by a woman? Only a sexist would claim a woman not to be a threat to a man.

As to the rest of your post, it is so devoid of any pertinence that it is hardly worth responding to, except to say that a Japanese police officer most likely would simply have grabbed the woman's arms until she realized that she was in the grip of someone much stronger and with better defense skills, as well as the authority to put her away.

Holy shit, where are our feminist friends? So female police officers aren't a threat to a man? Which woman's arms are you speaking, you do know that there were 2 womEn in this case? Didn't appear that one woman would have been punched at all. And you are certainly one to speak of pertinence frogger.

Tell us again what law enforcement experience you have?

[Bonobo]

297. The frog comment is a response to your claim of experience.

My response is that experience embedded in a system does not give you a broad enough view to criticize the system you are embedded in. Thus you are like a frog in a well that thinks the well is the whole world.

As to my experience, it is in unarmed combat. How much experience do YOU have in that? Probably none if my guess is correct.

You did not respond to my video which show your claim that the cop was in physical danger to be ridiculous. It shows a viable alternative to punching people in the face.

[pipoman]

303. And my response and experience is based on reality.

This incident happened in the US under a system which isn't going anywhere any time soon. Again, for you to claim I am not critical of the legal system in the US is baseless. I have, right here on DU, been very critical of police and aspects of the legal system on many, many occasions. The frog in the well is simply an ad hom attack, it adds not one thing to the conversation. It is a tiny person's attempt to feel large.

Your video shows ONE person, not 2 or 3 or 10 on one police officer...it is anecdotal at best but actually no comparison. Police officers in the US are in fact killed or seriously injured by idiots who resist arrest.

Any moran knows you don't get into fights with police in the US or in Japan, or anyplace else. In the US, if a police officer is going to arrest you, you very simply submit to the arrest. the time to argue will be in court, it will not help anything to argue at the time of the arrest. I have been involved in several cases which the criminal complaint which initiated the arrest was either dismissed or the defendant was found not guilty but the resisting arrest/battery of a police officer charge stuck and resulted in conviction. In the US police don't make the laws, they simply enforce existing laws. I don't like every law, arguing about it with police is a fools game.

You simply don't like how it looked. The result of the punch was the person who very, very obviously committed a battery on the police officer, and was unlawfully assisting a person who was unlawfully resisting arrest, quit committing the battery/assisting the resistor. The person who was punched was UNINJURED...THE TACTIC WAS EFFECTIVE. The officer is attending retraining because he didn't take the first person to the ground immediately when she began resisting arrest. This situation could easily gotten out of control if another bystander had assisted these 2 idiots. Like it or not, or whether I like it or not, this officer acted appropriately under US law, and I would bet with more restraint than in most countries in the world. This video will be used to convict both of these girls of resisting arrest and/or battery of a police officer. Their mouths and/or actions likely got them a jaywalking citation instead of a verbal warning. This is the absolute reality of this video and this incident and the US justice system which these 2 imbeciles live under.

[defendandprotect]

301. "a person will get their ass kicked for peaceful defiance of police"....

Hell many (if not most) places a person will get their ass kicked for peaceful defiance of police.


Well, that pretty much cedes the debate to your opposition.

Not satisfied with that -- why not take the time to try to demean Japan and Japanese?

Attack the poster -- and be sure to call others "idiots" and "stupid asses" -- !!!

OK -- you're finished!

Bye --

[pipoman]

304. ...

The killing and eating of animals by man is a recent phenomenon and is related in time to the patriarchal revoluiton. Greek myth records that it was not until the Bronze Age, almost within human memory, that man defied the Matriarchs and learned to eat meat


13,500 years old...'nuf said..

[defendandprotect]

300. "Because they are spoled brats, morons, hate police" . . .

why would these women "defy" him or "argue with him" if it was just a non-threatening conversation?

Because they are spoiled brats, because they are 17 years old, because they hate police

And in the balance of things, white authoritarian rule vs AAs needed another win?

Self-fulfilling bias?


If the intersection has been improved -- as you're suggesting -- they should only need a crossing guard there -- not a police officer.

Where do you live that employs 'crossing guards' for adults? I see them in school zones, I have never seen one in an urban/commercial area. Most 8 year olds understand the concept of crossing busy streets at pedestrian crossings when the signal allows for crossing. Obviously these morons refused to follow the rules or we wouldn't be discussing this. What is an "approved" intersection?

Actually, that should have read "improved."

We do have areas where schools are involved, such as this one, where crossing guards control

the traffic -- sometime aggressive traffic. And, adults also cross there.

Further, as others have pointed out, cars are not properly slowing down to permit pedestrians

to cross.

A neighboring town has just made some ridiculous changes to an intersection which almost forces

people into jaywalking and I imagine it will be quickly changed.

Again -- the intersection needs more work -- and more control of cars.

But, most of all, we need to return to the idea of police officers as "public servants" rather

than a military occupying cities!


You apparently hate law enforcement and/or believe some sort of anarchy is better than ceding authority to public officers. Further, the 'logic' displayed in your post appears to be similar to the demonstrably erroneous logic of your sig line.

Jaywalking is "anarchy" -- !

Violence and authority wins, eh?

[JH19059]

225. Hmmm?

I don't post much around here but after reading this I had to chime in. After watching the video it is clear that the two young ladies were the aggressors. The officer used very good restraint considering what he could have done to extinguish the problem. I'm a police officer in Chicago. From the looks of the video he could have easily used a tactical take down, stunned them with a blow to the side of the head,peppered sprayed them and yes tazered both of them. All of those methods are allwell within use of force doctrine and would upheld in the courts. As far as claims of "he hit a woman"or he could have used some other tactic or this is racism are just plain asinine. In my line of work political correctness will get you killed and I make no apology's for that. Officers who do that get hurt or even worse don't make it home at the end of their tour. Just 2 yrs ago we had an officer killed because he underestimated a female during a disturbance on a CTA bus. She overpowered him and killed him with his own service weapon. Are there brutal/racist/corrupt officers out there? heck yeah !! I wish we could wipe their asses out like the nazi's of old.

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

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[defendandprotect]

278. Exactly . . . . they're quite sure this will never happen to them -- until it does...

There's very little of the circumstances they're giving any thought to -

The effort to imprison more females -- the high numbers of AA in our prisons --

our prisons as money making industry now --

basic insanity!

Not sure where this belief in violence and authority comes from -- but it needs to

be challenged!

Bush/Cheney found it real easy to sell to Americans!

And most of them still haven't figured out those lies yet!

[SDuderstadt]

299. So, if I believe that...

the young woman should have simply accepted the ticket from the officer, should have not resisted arrest because she would not accept the citation, should not have assaulted the officer and that the second young woman should not have interfered with the arrest, nor should she have assaulted the officer, that makes me a Fascist?

Fucking unbelievable. This reflexive "Fascist/authoritarian" label leveled at fellow progressives is getting way out of hand and needs to stop.

[pipoman]

283. I'll ask you the same question I asked above..

Where on this planet can you get away with attacking a police officer who is asking you for identification? Where?

[DiverDave]

284. They wont reply, except

with more name calling.

The cop did the RIGHT THING...god, why cant you see that?

Or is it you just hate cops?

[Name removed]

287. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

302. Deleted message

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[HardWorkingDem]

312. So much for the "new" DU....

Great to see it's working out....

[superconnected]

306. Why were the teens attacking the cop anyway? I'd like to hear what the Clemmons sisters have to say

now.

[Supply Side Jesus]

307. Tase next time....

They even have multi-shot tasers now.
Assault a cop, except to have consequence.

[HardWorkingDem]

314. I find it odd how a thread of sexism is being missed here...

"Girl"....

Thoughts like the male cop is a wimp because he couldn't handle a "girl"....

Quite interesting from a place or philosophy that espouses equality, eh?

[Mickeyc1004]

317. This was only a jay walking ticket. He could have just given a warning.

I live in Washington State and I'll tell you there are a lot more drivers who break the law by driving through cross walks while pedestrians are approaching than jaywalkers.

I saw the video and the girls were not attacking the officer, they were simply trying to get him off of them.

Also, if these were white teenage girls, do I think he would be taking them to the pokie? No.
He probably would have been more respectful and then given a warning which would in turn would have made the girls more respectful.

With all the crime and speeding drivers about, I can't even believe this is all over jaywalking. Are you kidding me? The officer should be fired. He doesn't have the right temperament for the job.

[S_B_Jackson]

319. She refused to identify herself. How is he supposed to do that?

Assume for a moment that you're one of those drivers that you say drive through cross walks, if you're stopped and you refuse to provide your driver's license or you refuse to sign the citation, what would you expect would happen to you?

Do keep in mind that the officer was there at the request of the local high school which had concerns that one of their students, illegally jay-walking, was likely to get seriously injured or killed. And this despite the fact that there was a pedestrian overpass immediately adjacent.

If it were me, and yes I'm white, I'd expect to get hauled out of my car told to assume the position (either willingly or by force) and I'd be cuffed preparatory to going to the precinct station where I would be booked for resisting. This isn't a race thing, it's a stupid teenager with a problem with validly constituted authority thing...in the future she may be sadder but wiser, no?

[Mickeyc1004]

320. This was jaywalking, this was not a licensed driver.

Big differences.

Why would an officer arrest someone for Jaywalking? That is just ridiculous on any level.

Regardless of why he was there, officers are able to give a warning.

[S_B_Jackson]

322. Same difference. The officer was attempting to write her a citation...

and she refused to identify herself. So, just the same as if YOU refused to identify yourself during a traffic stop, the officer was placing her under arrest. The arrest is not for jay-walking, the arrest is for "resisting". Given the reason for why the officer was assigned to that duty, I believe the officer, rightly, believed that his discretion to simply "give a warning" was removed.

So far as I can tell, the officer in this situation did nothing wrong, the girls OTOH were wrong pretty much by the numbers. Were I to have conducted myself as either of the two girls, I would reasonably expect that I would have been subject to much more aggressive tactics and/or tazed.

[Mickeyc1004]

324. It is absolutely not the same.

A driver is licensed and a pedestrian is not.

To my understanding a officer can remove a ticket or give a warning at any time and this information came from an officer.

The officer should be fired, and he did plenty wrong.

[Mickeyc1004]

318. Also, I just wanted to say.

I haven't posted in a long time and this place seems more and more unrecognizable.

There was always evidence of racism on DU even back when Kerry was running for office and as a democrat and a liberal, it really did shock me at the time, but it had gotten better once Obama became the nominee.

It escalated when Obama was running against Hillary and went away slightly mostly during the election because most of those people ran away and voted for McCain.

Now, it seems, they are all back and running buck wild.


Real shame.

[U4ikLefty]

321. Train em' to set up with the jab?

You can land a better right-cross that way.

[superconnected]

326. Here's one thing I learned from this - an effort to figure out how to put my cell phone in video

record fast so I can capture crap like this if I come upon it.

Everyone ought to learn that.