U.S. scores dead last again in healthcare study

[OhioChick]

Source: Reuters

Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:48pm EDT

(Reuters) - Americans spend twice as much as residents of other developed countries on healthcare, but get lower quality, less efficiency and have the least equitable system, according to a report released on Wednesday.

The United States ranked last when compared to six other countries -- Britain, Canada, Germany, Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand, the Commonwealth Fund report found.

"As an American it just bothers me that with all of our know-how, all of our wealth, that we are not assuring that people who need healthcare can get it," Commonwealth Fund president Karen Davis told reporters in a telephone briefing.

Previous reports by the nonprofit fund, which conducts research into healthcare performance and promotes changes in the U.S. system, have been heavily used by policymakers and politicians pressing for healthcare reform.

Davis said she hoped health reform legislation passed in March would lead to improvements.

The current report uses data from nationally representative patient and physician surveys in seven countries in 2007, 2008, and 2009.


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65M0SU20100623?type=domesticNews

[ChromeFoundry]

1. K&R n/t

Sorry....I did recommend it. :shrug:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

3. You cannot simultaneously maximize profit and quality.

Sort of like how you cannot simultaneously maximize profit and good jobs.

[MindandSoul]

4. Just a confirmation of what everyone should have already known!

[superconnected]

92. Are you kidding - the Repbulican talking point is that WE have the best health care in the world and

heaven forbid we become like any of those countries - or any other country on earth because their health care is so underneath ours.

Seriously, their followers believe the lies.

[MindandSoul]

108. Yes, you're right. . .but anyone with half a brain knew that that was just propaganda!

[Arkansas Granny]

127. And with that statement you have described most of the Republican party.

[Vinca]

5. Until we dump the profit motive, we're bound to come in last.

[YewNork]

60. Believe me, the doctors in those countries are in it to make a profit.

[Swede]

94. It's not the doctors,it's the insurance company profits.

[iverglas]

124. actually, they're in it to make a living

Kind of like all of us are in whatever field we work in.

There is a difference.

And yes, they do to some extent make a profit, by owning the tools of their trade and profiting from that investment, and employing others to perform services in their business and profiting from their labour: earning more from both than they pay for them. That's the nature of a profession: essentially self-employed individuals who are exclusively authorized to perform certain services, and who invest and employ in order to do so effectively and efficiently. Doctors, lawyers, etc. A particular type of small business.

It really would be ludicrous to compare that to the profits of insurance corporations though, don't you think? Doctors aren't shareholders (whether individual or corporate) reaping interest on money; they're performing services for fees.

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. "Best heathcare in the world" -- ask anybody at fox news.

[SOS]

91. "Best heath care in the world"

You don't hear that much said these days.
Years ago it was a mantra.

After fighting with our POS insurance company for 4 weeks to get a suspicious mole removed from my wife's arm, I laugh at that
"best heath care in the world" BS.

As would anyone else who has dealt with this hellish system.

[Thav]

99. Agreed

5 years ago, my employer switched our insurance 2 weeks before my son was born. With the new insurance, nothing for me was "In-network." My wife got sick and they had to deliver early. The doctors and a team of nurses rush into the room like the Keystone cops, the doctor says, "We need to do a c-section now, before we can't anymore." Everything turned out ok on that front.

Until I got a bill with 5 digits before the decimal point.

The insurance company denied the claim, because it wasn't "pre-authorized." I asked them how you pre-authorize an emergency procedure, on a sunday, at 3 in the morning, when you get a recorded message when you do call the authorization line. (I had called the line when my wife was admitted, which was 6pm saturday). They also tried to claim "pre-existing condition" as well.

Needless to say, after several shouting matches, and making good on a few threats, they did pay some of the claim. I'm still paying for it, though.

So on top of the $400/month we pay for insurance, I have about $350/month going out to pay off what the insurance companies have decided not to pay, and the office copays and such for a family of 4. That's about 20% of the family monthly income.

While the service was good, and the doctors really do care, I'm completely soured to even do anything with the health care system due to the frustration and expense the insurance companies force upon everyone.

[SOS]

125. Your experience defines the current system

It's remarkable how similar these stories are.
I am sorry that you still have to pay for the birth of your child.
Pregnancy as a "pre-existing condition" is insurance company lunacy.
And if they demand approval, why are they closed on weekends?!
We can order a salad shooter at 3 AM on a Saturday, but can't get approval for a medical emergency.
These companies make billions in profit, but they can't hire someone to answer the phone on the weekend?
How convenient for them.

And that "in network" nonsense is what delayed the removal of my wife's growth for a month.

They tell us on TV that melanoma is a deadly disease and if you have a mole that meets certain criteria it should be removed immediately.
(I suspect this "concern" for our health comes mostly from the makers of sun block).

My father went through hell with melanoma because of months of misdiagnosis.
I was freaking out as the weeks passed with the insurance company saying that every doctor we contacted would not be paid.

It was finally removed on Wednesday and the initial diagnosis looks good.

But why must we go through all this when we're already paying a fortune for insurance?

[BrklynLiberal]

7. What has happened that might have caused anyone to expect any improvement in our

position in this category? This is no surprise. It is still the embarrassment and great cause for outrage that it always was.

[valerief]

8. No surprises there. nt

[valerief]

9. No surprises there. At least we're better than Somalia. nt

[1955doubledie]

10. USA! USA! USA!

:woohoo:

[Juche]

23. Ye haw

Lets bury our heads in the sand and pretend it is still the 1950s and we kick ass at everything. Denial and arrogance make great national policy.

I work with a conservative and he is actually fairly sane. He told me even he knows our system is a failure. He also dislikes Palin though, so I guess he is one of the more rational ones.

[papadog]

69. Obviously he's one not running for office. The few rational ones are getting

kicked out of office 'cause they are "too soft" on liberals. ur lucky you can speak with one witout him wanting to shoot you.

[xchrom]

11. Recommend

[Jefferson23]

12. Hey at least we are consistent! Hooray for the USA. n/t

[pattmarty]

13. Hey, at least we're still first in ONE thing: PRISONERS.

[Divine Discontent]

25. excellent comeback to the news!@!@!@! +1!!!

[daleanime]

27. And don't forget our biggest export...

garbage.

[OnlinePoker]

39. That could also be the biggest import. n/t

[howmad1]

35. Let's not forget:

Amurika, dumbest, most crooked country in the world.

[Swede]

95. You forgot #1 in serial killers.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. The reforms will not alter our ranking on that list

Although I too hope they will lead to improvements. We will still be last on that list.

[matt819]

15. Is it any wonder?

I had cataract surgery a few years ago. The cost was ridiculous, but that's not what I'm writing about.

I developed capsules behind the lens implants in both eyes. Removing the capsules requires an in-office laser procedure that takes about 60-90 seconds. That's seconds. One minute, maybe a bit more. Amount charged? $1,731. To be generous (allowing 90 seconds for the procedure), that comes to $69,240 per hour. (Yeah, I know the doctor can't do this many back-to-back, and doesn't usually get 40 of these an hour, etc., but you get the idea.) Insurance paid nothing but adjusted/disallowed $1,160, bringing my cost for a 90-second procedure to $570.

I'm not complaining about the care. Doctor is fantastic, nursing and office staff first rate. But these costs are beyond outrageous.

We all have stories (I have quite a few more myself), and maybe the insurance reform (aka health care reform) will make a difference. But until these costs are more reasonable, we will continue to rank at the bottom of these sorts of lists.

[iverglas]

17. by way of comparison

My partner and I both had cataract surgery on both eyes recently -- him 3 years ago for both, mine 3 and 4 years ago. We are Canadian, and live in Ontario (where the public health plan is tax-funded, without even the nominal premiums paid in some provinces).

I have had huge problems, apparently as a result of lacking zonules (the things that hold the lens capsule in place). Of the possible complications the Mayo Clinic website lists, I had cystoid macular edema and now have glaucoma from the steroids, and the lens implant had to be redone because of displacement. I had surgery in September to re-do the lens implant and remove retinal scarring, and do a vitrectomy to clear my eye of the crud that interfered with my vision and caused the retinal problems.

My partner walked into the kitchen on Saturday night complaining of not being able to see his monitor. I queried him and diagnosed retinal detachment, the other common post-cataract surgery complication. We went to the ER around midnight and his examination was completed an hour later. He was referred to the eye centre at another campus of the hospital for 10 a.m. Sunday morning. He had surgery Sunday night and was released Monday afternoon -- with the full works for retinal detachment: scleral buckle, sealing of tears, vitrectomy. By a top retinal surgeon, who also managed to be much more personable than my top retinal surgeon. (I think ophthalmologists have their personalities surgically removed at birth.)

The cost to us has been $50-$100 for the post-surgery drugs each time (I'm self-employed and don't have private supplemental insurance for drugs and dental). And taxi fares.

I actually don't know what the plan gets billed. I did see one bill for me prior to my last surgery -- my purse had been stolen and I didn't replace my OHIP card in time (when I did, it covered the costs retroactively). My pre-op workup with a nurse at the eye centre was about $300 as I recall.

The fee schedule ...
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/sob_mn.html

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/physserv/y_specia.pdf
RETINA
E152 Scleral resection or buckling procedure - with or without
diathermy, photo-coagulation or cryopexy, primary or
subsequent procedure...................................... 700.00

and I think he would have got the vitrectomy fees as well, somewhat lower than that from what I can tell. And undoubtedly fees for the initial consult (which may have been on other than a fee-for-service basis since it was at an in-hospital clinic) and the follow-up appointments.

Basically, the surgeon got less for the full surgery than you were charged for the brief in-office laser procedure. And that surgeon is very happy in his work -- he'd apparently been very busy with retinal detachments and was regaling another doc in the waiting room with all the ones he'd done in the last week. No signs of wanting to move to greenback-er pastures. ;)

One big difference in the practice is that to be paid, he just has office staff go into the OHIP software and plug in the number for the service and submit the bill. Then he gets paid. No pre-approvals, no discussions with the insurer, no forms, no collecting from patients.

[matt819]

22. Jeez

I know what you mean. I lived in Ontario for three years in the late 1980s and had OHIP. One of our kids was an infant with medical issues, and another was born while we were there. So I can appreciate the difference. What we have here is criminal.

[wolfgangmo]

104. A few small comments from a medical clinic.

All that staff and overhead costs money. Doctors and nurses pay a TON of money every year to keep getting retrained and updated. And medical equipment is EXPENSIVE. The doctors probably charged you what was necessary. There is staff training, set up time, break down time, medical waste disposal costs, etc. that you don't see for your short procedure, the cost of which would have been the same if it had taken much longer and needed more from the doctors and staff. If you compare that to the Canadian costs, it is pretty similar.

So why did the clinic charge what they did? Because the insurance companies are not just screwing patients. They are out to screw doctors as well. And if the doctors don't bill 2 to 3 times what they need then they will not get enough to keep the doors open.

Keep in mind who the enemy is - the insurance companies. The rest of us are just citizens; live, human citizens and not corporate flesh eating ones.

[iverglas]

113. actually

If you compare that to the Canadian costs, it is pretty similar.

I don't think it was remotely similar. The charges I cited were for doing a full retinal detachment surgery -- the surgeon's fees, of course; there were also the anaesthesiologist, the resident who assisted (it's a teaching hospital of course, so his services may not have been medically necessary), and the entire business of the overnight hospital stay.

But to charge a fee for an office procedure that takes a few seconds that is more than double what a top-flight surgeon is paid for a surgery in hospital that took 60 to 90 minutes -- ridiculous. The fee for that laser procedure was simply ridiculous and outrageous no matter what angle you look at it from.

A doctor who does such procedures in Ontario (the various opthalmologists we go to here do -- my mum had the same procedure fairly recently) has all the same associated expenses: staff, equipment, training. There is no way in the world that OHIP pays anything like that fee.

It's all a wee bit beyond me, but if you're interested, you could try to find it in the fee schedule:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/physserv/physserv_mn.html
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/sob/physserv/y_specia.pdf

Now: yes, there are indeed costs involved that doctors in Ontario don't bear. The internal administrative expenses of dealing with insurance companies, for one: the staff time required for the billing and collecting, the doctors' time for arguing about treatment when necessary.

But -- And if the doctors don't bill 2 to 3 times what they need then they will not get enough to keep the doors open. -- ?

Because in 1/2 to 2/3 of cases (or whatever that math is), they aren't going to get paid at all?? I'm not grasping this one.


Everybody has overhead. That's why a meal in a restaurant costs 3 times what it would cost to make it at home. But I'm not buying that there was $1500 worth of overhead in that procedure. Or that the fee charged somehow represents lost income on a couple of other procedures for which payment wasn't received, or whatever that meant.


edited for weird syntax

[SILVER__FOX52]

16. Yea, we finally made it..................

we are officially the asshole of the world. All hail, the United Banana Republic of America!!

[Amonester]

26. It's more the United Banana Empire of America, although

the Republics' haves and have-mores stole it all to line their pockets indefinitely, so the United Banana Republic Empire is correct too.

[glinda]

18. New changes are totally insufficient.

[inna]

19. Profits before people. The uniquely American way.

[stevedeshazer]

20. It is flat-out embarrassing.

Thirty years of deregulation starting with Reaganomics and here's where we are.

:grr:

[alp227]

21. a fact that teabaggers either deny or attack

One example of attacking the World Health Org rankings of world healthcare systems: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2336712/posts

But hey, how many sick and dying people who could have easily gotten insured exist in UK/France/Japan/etc. compared to in the good ol' US? And I thought that conservatives were AGAINST wasteful spending, and they could have easily used the talking point of "US spends too much on healthcare but returns a $%#%@ product" to support reform!

[LiberalLovinLug]

97. They could have easily used a lot of talking points.

Not made up ones, actual fact based talking points.

They (Nancy, Bill, Barack) could have shamed the Blue Dogs, at least, by putting them in a corner as the ones holding up savings to the taxation burden of Americans by explaining the benefits financially of Single Payer reform. Or at the very least a public option where profit is not handcuffing the system. It's baffling why they just gave ground, gave ground, and gave more ground each time without a fight. They had no faith in either their own abilities to explain things properly (against the FOX noise machine) or no faith in the American public to understand an explanation, or I guess worse still, they were always bought and sold by the Big Insurance.

[stray cat]

24. By comparison to the best 6 world-wide?

if thats true its not really bad compared to the rest of the world - but Ameicans have a need to feel like victims

[hay rick]

29. Hardly.

The Commonwealth Fund seems to have focused on English-speaking countries for their comparison. They could have substituted France, any of the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, or Japan and the U. S. A. would have still come in last. The usual comparisons feature OECD countries- generally considered our economic peers. The truly singular feature of our health care system is the extraordinary cost of care- both in per capita terms and in percentage of GDP. Switzerland, which also relies heavily on private insurance, is a distant second.

[liberation]

40. Yeah, why let reading the article get in the way of your narrative...

[greensleeve]

45. The countries mentioned for comparison are not the 6 best

they are do not even enter the rankings until number 18 and then the US is 37th. Try France, Italy, Spain, Austria, Japan, Norway, Portugal, Greece etc. The first on on the list is The UK at 18

[Dr.Phool]

47. There's about 150 million real victims.

46 million who have no coverage, and another 100 million who have coverage that don't cover shit.

[liberation]

82. Yeah, but those are "little people" don't you know...

It takes what, 100000 "little people" to count as much as a real person (aka corporation). So in the big scheme of things, not a big deal.


*sarcasm*

[Lost4words]

63. did you really say that? You really said that!

[liberation]

81. LOL

Your response was perfectly apropos for your screen name.

Sorry for the off topic comment ;-)

[Greyhound]

112. You know that until we are literally squatting in a road, eating gravel,

it's not that bad...
:eyes:

[bvar22]

28. And after the much ballyhooed Reforms kick in....

we'll STILL be dead last.

A once in a generation opportunity for real "CHANGE"....wasted by timid "Centrists" and Republican appeasers.
The For Profit Insurance Corporations have been enthroned as the gateway to Health Care in America for the foreseeable future.
Their 15% (+) skim of the top is now GUARANTEED by LAW, and a flow of $Billions from the Public Treasury now certified. They manufacture NOTHING, and produce NO wealth (value added).

"A Uniquely American Solution"....indeed!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

54. Exactly. What we got was the OPPOSITE of reform.

Wasted by Democrats who passed a diluted illusion of reform because they "negotiated" away anything of substance to achieve the bi-partisan compromise with themselves.

We got the reform we were always meant to get - little to none.

[rpannier]

30. Not Last

7th

See how much better that sounds.

[pundaint]

31. Do any of the better performing countries buy their healthcare from financial institutions?

[nodehopper]

87. well, healthcare in the NL is privatized. They just regulate the hell out of it.

[wolfgangmo]

105. All healthcare in Canada is private.

It is just that they took the insurance companies out of the equation when it comes to basic primary care costs. 1 insurance company - no preauthorizations and the network covers all doctors.

Most Canadians carry supplemental insurance for dental, vision, prescriptions, etc. So it is not like the insurance companies went out of business - they just got regulated.

[iverglas]

123. let's not downplay it

Most Canadians carry supplemental insurance for dental, vision, prescriptions, etc. So it is not like the insurance companies went out of business - they just got regulated.

Actually, they got legislated out of medically necessary medical care.

It's not like that's just some little corner of the healthcare industry, you know. It's, like, everything except dental, vision and prescriptions. (Some of which are covered in some provinces.)

It's the payment for actual medical care that got regulated -- fees are set by the provincial insurance plans, which do negotiate with the provincial medical associations (the medical associations being physicians' self-interest voluntary organizations, not the "colleges" that govern the medical profession.)

So yes -- the healthcare industry, if you will, is heavily regulated in many ways. Access to the professions is regulated, governance being delegated to colleges of physicians and surgeons. Fees payable for medically necessary services (which may not be provided outside the insurance plans, barring some complicated exceptions that have essentially no effect) are regulated. Just as many other functions performed by the private sector are heavily regulated in a capitalist liberal democracy leaning toward social democracy.

And do let's be accurate, although I don't suspect you intended to be misleading. It isn't just basic primary care costs that are covered. The year-long treatments my sister and mother just completed last year, for cancers, were not basic primary care; the eye surgeries my partner and I have had this year are not basic primary care; the neurosurgery my father had years ago that is the subject of a report in the New England Journal of Medicine was not basic primary care, the endocrinologist and cardiologist my partner sees regularly because of his diabetes are not providing basic primary care; etc.


The insurance companies went out of the medically necessary services business. And that's a danged good start, and in fact not half bad as a goal in itself.

[grahamhgreen]

32. Medicare for All. Out of Iraqistan to pay for it. Simple.

[TBF]

62. Rec this post. n/t =)

[gblady]

80. BRAVO....

my thoughts, exactly!

[lovuian]

33. this is so sad I visited a German Hospital this summer

it was immaculately clean and the patient was 80 and healing wonderfully

if it would have been at the hospital in the US
his wound would have been infected with MRSA and on tremendous amount of antibiotics

Young people are dying of cancer because they wait to long for treatment since they don't have any money

this system will collapse as charges sky rocket out of the pocket for anybody

[1776Forever]

58. Last time I was in my local hospital I had to ask for the room to be cleaned!

But they don't worry about the CEO's pay! I am sure the cleaning crew was swamped! I am just stating that your reply is based on fact! Greed lives in the USA and it is killing us!

[Lost4words]

64. +1 nt

[lovuian]

102. Yep and get this our care cost DOUBLE

what it does in Europe
and I want to give the Rich Senators and Congressmen the heads up
All of our Hospitals are inefficiently run
so if they go in the hospital they will get the same crappy care as everybody else

their days are numbered just like us

they are Americans and no matter how much the money
when they go in a hospital infested with MRSA
they run the risks of getting it
just like anybody else

Good Luck Senators...your money can not protect you from damaging healthcare
You reap what you sow
I always get a big kick out of rich people when they come to grips that their money can not stop the disease process

get the wake up call Senators ...your just like all the rest of us when you walk into that ER

[wolfgangmo]

106. Dude

If you think that Senators have to use the same hospitals as the little people, you need to stop hogging the bong.

[NorthCarolina]

34. Is it fair to compare not-for-profit public health care to our for-profit insurance based system?

:eyes:

[liberation]

38. Am I missing the sarcasm somewhere?

[NorthCarolina]

65. Of course. Just didn't think it was necessary.

:hi:

[liberation]

83. Sorry

I am a little slow sometimes, and lack of coffee didn't help. Thus me asking...

Plus I have read posters in DU lately that would make rabid libertarians sound down right tamed in comparison. I just don't know anymore...

;-)

[MindandSoul]

41. What isn't fair is to have a profit based system instead of a not for profit system!

that's why we score so low!

[radhika]

36. And we worked hard for that honor...

Let's show some credit. Ta-da. If it hadn't been for Teabaggers, TownHallers, Repugs, front groups, lobbyists, insurance thugs, Blue Dogs, Conserv-a-Dems and the White House itself -- whew- we might just have had to give up this noble spot. But we're Can-Do Yankees, so we will not be dislodged!

[craigmatic]

37. of course we do. even with Obama's reforms we're still just letting things happen.

The only way to get more out of our system is to move towards single payer universal coverage.

[GreenTea]

42. Republicans don't care as long as their insurance corporations are making gobs of money.

screw the people....the greedy corporations want ALL our tax dollars for themselves and their corporations....tens of thousands of people are dying each year and the numbers are growing from lack of health care, but they are only the poor - so republicans say fuck them, let them die, they have no money, what good are they?

[ZenKitty]

43. The "Commonwealth Fund"? I don't know about you..

but I would prefer to hang my hat on statistics from an unbiased source. Otherwise the the numbers are useless. Facts...just give me the facts.

[Dr.Phool]

46. Want facts? Walk around the block.

The same numbers are out there regardless of the source.

Why would you think the "Commonwealth Fund" would be a biased source?

The US Healthcare system is bad. Look at UN figures for infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. We're the only developed country in the world where you can lose everything you own, just from getting sick or injured.

We rank somewhere between Uganda and Zimbabwe in health care. And that's not an unbiased source, it's a snark.

[liberation]

89. "Facts" ain't real unless you like them or agree with your narrative, right?

From their mission statement at http://www.commonwealthfund.org/About-Us.aspx

"The Commonwealth Fund is a private foundation that aims to promote a high performing health care system that achieves better access, improved quality, and greater efficiency, particularly for society's most vulnerable, including low-income people, the uninsured, minority Americans, young children, and elderly adults."

And here is their board of directors: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/About-Us/Board-of-Directors.aspx

Oh, noes! What a bunch of biased bastards!

[iverglas]

116. I drop in to DU every few weeks these days

and the population just gets weirder every time.

[ihavenobias]

44. K & R. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

48. Listen: The illusion that America has wealth is just that: An illusion. Consequently The People....

...are sold substandard health-care at a premium price. Corporations who are beholden to no-one stalk within our borders freely. And an institutionalized worse, much worse. Like the indigent in some fiction of allegedly bygone, primitive industrial times, we are led by our sooty noses through the mines with the promise of a wealth which is plaster and wallpaper over a wall without studs.

PB

[wordpix]

126. it's not an illusion---it's deliberate PR to the American people. The BP disaster tells us who's

really in charge and it's NOT the American people. The idea that we're a wealthy nation and "the only superpower left in the world" is bunk. It's propaganda, nothing more.

If we were all that wealthy, the unemployment rate would not be 10% nationally. There would be plenty of well paying jobs for all. We would also have fast, efficient public transportation as they do in Norway and elsewhere in Europe. And we would have well operating government that can afford to write and enforce protective rules for the environment.

[mrfocus]

49. So, if US insurance companies kill people for money through

"recission" and strategic "fraud investigation" oddly timed to begin immediately after a big claim, why is it not called "felony murder"?

[sabrina 1]

119. Because they are private corporations

and even when they kill Americans, as WH Press Sec. Gibbs said about BP (who has killed 26 Americans over the past five years), 'we can't take them over, they are private corps'. See? America is helpless in the face of the Global Private Corporation Empire.

If it was a poor person who refused to give aid to a dying person, it would be a whole different story.

The other reason of course is that we have people who DEFEND this system, right here on a progressive also. They ignore the dead and those who will die, because it's more important that 'our team wins'. 'Dead Peasants'? Who cares, we have a team to support and we will defend them no matter what!

[Bryn]

50. I am still disturbed by what Blanche Lincoln had done

She was the 60th vote for that health care after threatening not to vote for it unless the public option was killed (paid by insurance companies) It was her own hand that affects us all in USA, not just Arkansas even though 87% of Arkansans wanted the public option. I never never believe that Obama actually was behind her to get her votes against our chosen Democrat, Bill Halter, in Arkansas unless he had to in order to get that bill passed. He didn't do much for her except for that radio ad. It was Bill Clinton that helped her out. Obama on radio confused people and caused them to vote for her. They did not understand the whole story.

Read it yourself: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2010/06/16/blanche_lincoln_progressives_national/index.html

Plus the comments by people of Arkansas.

"This is not about Ideological Purity, but rather about insisting on a basic level of Party discipline. Joining a Republican Filibuster is not acceptable, and doing so may earn you a primary challenge.

Sacrificing an unreliable "ally" like Blanche Lincoln is an acceptable price to pay if it forces the Party to enforce a basic level of discipline and to stand firm on the policy goals of the core of the party. Too long has the party core been sold out to the likes of Lincoln, Lieberman, Nelson etc."

[area51]

51. We have never-ending money for two wars of choice.

But to have single-payer health care like Canada? "That would bankrupt us," scream the nazis.

Each day, 273 people die due to lack of health care in the U.S.

We need single-payer health care, not a welfare bailout for the serial-killer insurance agencies.

[ck4829]

52. K&R

[Chisox08]

53. Nothing surprising there

As long as we have conservatives of both parties in charge we will always wind up in last place when it comes to health care.

[DailyGrind51]

55. Watch premium rates go through the roof until 2014!

[mwb970]

56. The Reagan Revolution is bearing its bitter fruit.

This is where "greed is good" takes a country. Way behind in health care. Way behind in educational progress. But our rich people are getting richer faster than those anywhere else! We're #1 only in unfairness and inequity. So much for American "exceptionalism". We're "exceptional", all right - exceptionally stupid.

To have allowed a washed-up, 2-bit actor to do this to us was shameful, though I guess "us" includes a lot of right-wing fools who had stars in their eyes as they worshipped His Holiness St. Ronald. Thanks a lot, suckers.

[h9socialist]

57. Another triumph for the free enterprise system!

As the Republicans like to remind us: there is a high cost associated with vigilanlty maintaining a free market economy! This appears to be one of those costs!

[patrice]

59. War Slaves don't need Health Care; they should just breed and keep their mouths shut.

[tomp]

61. "..all of our wealth..."?

WE don't have any wealth, the wealthy have it all. the rest of us are just getting by. that's why the health care system sucks. that's the american plan.

[Lost4words]

67. The do nothing majority continues to favor the status Quo!

I sure dont know why, it pretty much kills hope for any improvement!

[nxylas]

66. But at least Americans have FREEDOM!

"We may die early, but we'll die free. Look at the freedoms those countries with better healthcare than ours have had to sacrifice. Like the freedom to..."

If you want the rest of that sentence, a conservative will be able to finish it for you. Or, more likely, they won't, but they won't care, because the first two sentences are enough to satisfy them.

[Javaman]

68. We're Number Last!!! We're Number Last!!! We're Number Last!!! nt

[yeswecanandwedid]

75. lawl, hopefully not for long. nt

[Fiendish Thingy]

70. T Minus 1 year and counting 'till we join the Canadian Healthcare system...

just closed escrow on our home, just waiting to find jobs and for our daughter to graduate from college, then we're out of here!

[NightHawk63]

71. Same here Fiendish

I have completed the immigration process and am waiting to receive my permanent residence card. I'm still up in the air as to whether I'll be moving to Vancouver or Toronto.

[One_Life_To_Give]

72. Put our Congressional Healthcare against their Parliment Healthcare anyday

And we can eat Cake.
:sarcasm:

[Oceansaway]

73. K&R...n/t

[valerief]

74. We're Number Last! We're Number Last! We're Number Last!

Ah, I take such pride in America's ability to totally fuck over its populace.

[newtothegame]

76. Reading the OP and the responses, it's amazing to think this is an American website isn't it?

I mean we want to fix things, but sometimes I swear my fellow DU'ers are celebrating this shit. Some people can't seem to WAIT to post bad news about America, and this is regardless of who is in the White House. I hate to admit that maybe the neocons are right on one thing; there really does seem to be people that truly HATE America.

[liberation]

85. LOL

I like better your caricature of what a liberal is supposed to be. You got sloppy with this one, I'll give a 2 out of 10.

BTW, everybody knows you ain't a "real" leftie unless you have the Che's avatar. Duuuuuh! Try that next time.


Cheers!

[newtothegame]

96. Good luck in your desperate search for trolls. Love you.

Warm hugs and kisses,
newtothegame

[liberation]

98. LOL

As I said, use the Che's avatar, it will give your caricature much more gravitas... Take that as a free friendly advice, real liberals like to share just like that.

Cheers.

[OhioChick]

86. "Some people can't seem to WAIT to post bad news "

As "colsohlibgal" stated down-thread:

"It's not about celebrating bad news. It's about life and death. Our health care system is killing people, it's causing suffering and bankruptcy along the way."


Time to wake up. :eyes:

[xocet]

101. So...

The content of your statement seems to be the following:

The neocons are correct that some US citizens hate the USA, and a subset of those citizens is to be found here on the Democratic Underground.

Yours has to be one of the most blatantly accusatory statements that I have ever read here on DU. The only people on DU that are averse to improving the USA are the RW trolls that cast about aimlessly and mindlessly while posting their relentless and uninspired gibberish.

---

P.S. RE:"...there really does (sic) seem to be people that truly HATE America."

One might legitimately ask you whether you mean South America or North America. In either case, these continents are not equivalent to the USA. Calling the USA "America" is indicative of a unsophisticated view of geography or of a laziness of expression.

[wolfgangmo]

103. re:the neocons are right

You are absolutely correct. There really does seem to be people that truly HATE America.

But you are completely wrong about who that is. The people on DU point out the actions of those who hate Americans and America such the neocons. We point out the BS they are doing and we point out the spin they put on it.


And somehow, that becomes our fault? We didn't crash the banks. We didn't rip off homeowners. We didn't trade in derivitives. We didn't abandon NOLA. We didn't deregulate oil drilling. We didn't overturn the fairness doctrine. We don't push supply side voodoo economics. We don't steal retirement savings. We don't deny medical treatment that has been paid for. We don't scam. We don't steal. We don't kill. We don't invade countries based on easily verifable lies. We don't sit reading my pet frog while the US is under attack. And we don't spin any of this.

If you want to fall for the Faux Skews the News talking points BS you are welcome to it. But don't blame us for pointing out hypocrites, crooks and worse and asking that this country live up to it's ideals. It's what any patriotic American would do in our place. You are welcome to join us, but don't expect a pat on the back for helping the elite in thier goal of destroying this great country.





Snort. I need a drink.

[Blue_Tires]

77. ttt

[The Backlash Cometh]

78. Oh, for a minute there I was worried. I thought they were talking about the World Cup.

Health care? Who needs Health care? We don't need no stinkin Health care.

[colsohlibgal]

79. Our System Is Still A Mess

It's not about celebrating bad news. It's about life and death. Our health care system is killing people, it's causing suffering and bankruptcy along the way.

A lot of our "historic" health insurance bill, weak as it is, won't even start for a few years.

We need a president and a legislature with vision, a sense of truth and justice, and all of them with a pair of one sort or another.

We should cut the defense budget by over half, change the tax structure to quit giving the wealthy a free ride, legalize drugs and start treating abusers/addicts instead of incarcerating them. Tax pot, tax and license prostitution, and have a government run single payer system that eliminates that blood sucking third party and is funded by the other actions. Oh and also investigate 9/11 and start holding the right people accountable for it.

It would be possible to turn things around if we did stuff like that. However enough of Washington is bought and paid for, it's a cesspool, the MSM is under the thumb of the corporate state, and too many of our people are some combination of misguided, anesthetized by I-Phones and 500 cable channels, and brain dead - so we will keep going down this ruinous path, swelling the wealth of the very few at the expense of most of us - till enough people get a clue and the will to act.

[Uncle Joe]

84. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, OhioChick.

[RufusTFirefly]

88. This can't be true. The media are liberal and Obama is a socialist.

:sarcasm:

Americans (and I am a U.S. American but with lots of Canadian relatives) reside in such a make-believe world where Pres. Obama is a socialist and Sarah Palin is a legitimate candidate that they will never believe or grasp the implications of such sobering stories.

[superconnected]

90. KEEP THINGS THE WAY THEY ARE - oh wait, I'm not a Republican. FIX IT!!!

[democrank]

93. No surprise here.

Our "leaders" should be ashamed.

[defendandprotect]

100. Elites have managed to keep MEDICARE FOR ALL out of the picture for decades

-- and Americans are suffering for it --

Right wing interests have also been trying to destroy universal health care in Europe

for decades -- and worker benefits -- sooner or later they'll succeed!

[happy_liberal]

107. we would do well to take care of ourselves at this point in time- focus on prevention

A 'For Profit' system by definition works to keep you coming back. They are not looking for solutions...at all. That teamed with our FDA that now works to protect Corporations, not people, we have a food supply that is almost completely tainted by untested (and rejected by most other countries including starving people in Africa) Monsanto's GM foods. It is increasingly difficult to find foods without Corn, Soy or Canola and/or high fructose corn(GM) syrup full of mercury. And Prescription drugs...that is a whole other story...


The best thing people can do right now is take that money they are paying for health insurance...and instead use it to insure your health. Buy better foods. Take more time off of work to de-stress and exercise. Research ways to achieve optimal health naturally. Have one partner stop working for money and spend the time cooking decent food from scratch- whole wheat flour, whole grain everything, vegetable garden takes more time than one might think. One 50lb bag of flour will last months of bread, tortillas, cinnamon rolls, pizzas, muffins...throw in some nuts and seeds and you have a complete protein. You will save a ton on groceries and medical bills. Sell everything and buy a tiny cabin in some remote place with clean air and water and get away from it all. This 'reality' we have created is all an illusion, self perpetuating popular illness. We are making ourselves sick- literally....and there is no end in sight.

I never dreamed this oil gusher would happen, now how many millions of Americans are being exposed to toxic air!!!!! Who is going to help them? WHO?

CNN: Almost All 1989 Exxon Valdez Cleanup Crew Dead!!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8625195

[iverglas]

115. that really is nonsense

A 'For Profit' system by definition works to keep you coming back.

Possibly true -- for those who can pay for what they're going there for, one way or another.

The main profit in the system is in insurance -- the vendors of which don't want you going in the first place, let alone coming back.

If you can pay for the services of the health care provider and the prescriptions written, then yes, you're a source of profits for the provider and the drug companies.


The best thing people can do right now is take that money they are paying for health insurance...and instead use it to insure your health. Buy better foods. ...

Nonsense. Just nonsense. Buy better food, certainly -- which can be done just as cheaply as buying crap food. Do the other "lifestyle" things that are all recommended to avert some health problems.

But when you are diagnosed with melanoma because your parents didn't keep you out of the sun when you were too young to be making your own health choices, or you're in a car crash, or a hereditary disease strikes you, or you're pregnant, or your kid has a heart problem or leukemia or any of the myriad of disseases that strike kids unpredictably and unpreventably, you want and need and deserve health care.

It is ridiculous to set up some dichotomy between the two things: trying to avert diseases and disorders, and getting treatment for diseases and disorders. Diverting your insurance premiums into vegetables and vacation time just isn't going to help you when disaster strikes.


Have one partner stop working for money and spend the time cooking decent food from scratch

Gosh, I wonder which partner that would be, and who will "have" her leave her public life to go back to kinder, kirche and küche. I'm a woman; I work more than full time, and I also cook excellent food from scratch. I won't be going off-grid and barefoot just at the moment, ta.


Sell everything and buy a tiny cabin in some remote place with clean air and water and get away from it all.

I'm sure this will work marvellously well for a population of over 300 million, and all the habitat they will be taking over and trashing and polluting.

Has "I'm all right Jack and fuck the rest of you" become some sort of "liberal" mantra now?

[Melissa G]

109. K&R. Love your sig line! n/t

[DirkGently]

110. Nonsense. Nothing this rare and expensive can be bad. nt

[a la izquierda]

111. Color me shocked...

not!
My husband has no insurance at the moment, because we make too much money for state subsidized care (we make about $33k). Of course he develops a problem in the three months (out of 10 years) that he doesn't have insurance.

I'm starting to hate this country and its ridiculous, conservative cheerleaders. :(

[txlibdem]

114. Get the profit out of health care

The health care industry treats symptoms. No cures: there's no profit in curing you when they can keep you on XYZ medication for life.

[mvd]

121. Welcome to DU, and I agree

The health care reform, because it had no single payer or strong public option, was a band aid. I am happy it passed, because it will save some lives despite being very flawed. But the for-profit system is the real problem, and we strongly need more reform for it to work long-term. I really hope that it isn't the only time health care is addressed in Obama's Presidency.

[Joe Chi Minh]

117. Ah haa! The cunning swine, didn't mention the death panels, in our UK NHS, did they...?

For shame!

[bvar22]

118. OTOH, We're the undisputed Champion #1 in the World....

...in the profitability of our Health Insurance Corporations!
And NOW, after HCR, the profits are GUARANTEED and customers MANDATED by LAW!
"A Uniquely American Solution"....indeed!

We're #1
We're #1
We're #1
We're #1
We're #1
We're #1
Which way to the Mission Accomplished Parade?
Hoot..Hoot!


"And everyone has a share!", shouted Milo as the American bombers began drooping bombs on their own base.

[sabrina 1]

120. I wonder why I could not rec. this post?

Since it's still on the Rec. list it is not yet 24 years old, is it?

:kick: and rec'd if I could.

[Zhade]

122. So, where's that promised "fix" to the HIR bill?

We're not going to forget, you know.