Row grows between Vatican and Brussels over police raid

[demoleft]

Source: afp

AFP - A Belgian archdiocese is considering legal action over police raids on church property during which Roman Catholic bishops were detained and a cathedral crypt searched, a spokesman said Saturday.
...
Vatican number two Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said the detention of a number of bishops during the raid was "serious and unbelievable", comparing it to the practices of communist regimes.

Father Eric De Beukelaer, spokesman for the Mechelen-Brussels archdiocese, told AFP that the church authorities were still considering their options.

Read more: http://www.france24.com/en/20100626-row-grows-between-vatican-brussels-over-police-raid

---

the vatican shows contradictory reactions, day by day. on one side it has to show availability, because public opinion is on the war-path on sex abuse. on the other, as an independent state, it raises its voice.

the news on the contradictory positions, june 26, earlier:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8638852

[saigon68]

1. A Belgian archdiocese is considering legal action

The leaders of that cabal better get their subordinates to zip up their trousers when in the presence of young boys

[Poll_Blind]

2. Maybe they were checking to make sure there weren't any wee little corpses down there.

I mean, come on: If you're fucking sick enough to rape a child, just how much sicker do you have to be to strangle them when you're done? A lot? A whole lot? Not a lot?

I read the whole article and based on the reasons they were there it would be related to the pedophilia investigation. So evidence, maybe also looking for child pornography as well. You in the church, get used to it.

PB

[Selena Harris]

8. Drill,baby,drill!

Maybe they were drilling for DNA evidence from the corpses,too.

[bemildred]

3. Bring it. nt

[Swagman]

4. sorry but I'm with Cardinal. Poeple's rights shouldn't be trampled

on because one beast has been caught. The drilling of caskets sounds pretty degrading. This could have been handled in a much more diplomatic fashion.

With all the scandals of the church the vast majority of priest are still decent people.

[demoleft]

5. much easier if the church had not kept the mouth shut trampling on victims tragedies...

...what is on stake here is not the crime of one or two around the world, but a "system" by which the church has protected the criminals.

and there's only one way to disrupt this system.

i see your point, but i'm with the investigators.

[rpannier]

6. I'll disagree with you here

Abe Fortas once said, "Protecting the rights of vile people is important. Because if we're willing to protect their rights then everyone can feel secure that their rights are preserved."

[demoleft]

7. i would have preferred the church to hand out the keys to the dirty secrets...

...but since they have not done for years, i agree on breaking the dirty black "sanctuary" open.

the only "rights" that should be protected are the victims' - and among the victims, common people whose friends/sons/daughters/relatives or simply townfolks and citizens' lives were so shamefully wounded and reduced to ashes.

i feel wounded by the acts of the priests who raped but also by an institution that have protected the criminals.

they're gonna pay now, i hope - and for years to come.

a good way for the church to go through some purgatory. it won't do harm.
"truth" is - or should be - a basic principle for christians.

someone has forgotten it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

18. Which is more lamentable? That the image of the Belgian Church should be tarnshed in a matter of a

few hours? Or that its sacred reality should be dragged through the vilest sewage known to man, by a wolf in the Good Shepherd's clothing? Except that the Good Shepherd spoke scornfully of gorgeous robes as appropriate only for worldly leaders.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. You.

You think if there's too much atheism in the world, Yellowstone may explode.

[Joe Chi Minh]

36. Oh, you poor wee atheist.. You love dishing it to people who "turn the other cheek",

but grizzle like a little girl when you get it back with interest.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. "you don't expect to get the same treatment in return."

Oh, no, we fully expect it. In return AND in advance. And, to paraphrase FDR, we welcome it.

Ah, and thanks for elaborating on the sexism. That was very enlightening.

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. You needed it, so I was more than happy to oblige.

[defendandprotect]

24. In most of these cases -- international cases -- the Vatican has been given

exceptional treatment -- that's what has permitted so many priests to continue abusing children!

In Ireland, the government was interceding to keep these cases covered up --

We here in America had the same thing happen in Louisiana -- with a town official covering

up for the RCC.

Often police officials ignored priests who were involved in sexual scandals - protected them!

The church was buying the silence of the parents in many cases -- when intimidation and

threats didn't work!

All around the world, the Vatican had been given the benefit of the doubt on these scandals --

and we were all wrong --

For those who may have missed this information re the current Pope Benedict . . .



Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests'by EWAN FLETCHER

Last updated at 22:00 30 September 2006

Pope Benedict

The Pope played a leading role in a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests, according to a shocking documentary to be screened by the BBC tonight.

In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.

The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities,

bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it.

And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated.

The Panorama special, Sex Crimes And The Vatican, investigates the details of this little-known document for the first time. The programme also accuses the Catholic Church of knowingly harbouring paedophile clergymen. It reveals that priests accused of child abuse are generally not struck off or arrested but simply moved to another parish, often to reoffend. It gives examples of hush funds being used to silence the victims.
-snip-

Five years ago he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times.

Cardinal Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

If you have trouble reading the balance of the article at the link, let me know and I'll

post the rest of it --


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407808/Pope-led-cover-child-abuse-priests.html

Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 02:37 AM by defendandprotect
AND, JUST WANT TO ADD THAT THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION GOING FORWARD NOW INTO WHETHER
THE RCC USED MONEY FROM AMERICAN TAXPAYERS VIA 'FAITH BASED' RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION
SUPPORT ...... TO PAY LAWSUITS BROUGHT AGAINST THE CHURCH BY VICTIMS OF PRIEST PEDOPHILES!!!
*******************************************************************************************


save church at all costs....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...

"What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...men_englis...

[aquart]

9. What percentage would that be, then?

And do you include every single one who knew about another one and kept silent?

[defendandprotect]

16. "With all the scandals of the church the vast majority of priest are still decent people"--

and you, personally, know that and can guarantee that?

[Swagman]

20. the ones I know yes and others are innocent unles you know

otherwise. I know this is an emotional thing but I personally am against people's religious beliefs being trampled.

We do not attack Muslims because there are fundamentalist who do terrible things.

[defendandprotect]

22. You know the "vast majority of priests" . . . ???

Re the question I asked you . . .

You are offering an opinion -- there is no way you can suggest any such thing.

Nor can you vouch for anyone's "innocence" --


"With all the scandals of the church the vast majority of priest are still decent people"--


I've also known a few priests in my time -- and I've met one recent new seminarian --


I know this is an emotional thing....

No -- religion may be an emotional thing for some -- but for those challenging religion, it is

an intellectual response.

Unless you mean reactions to young children being sexually abused -- ?

Yes, that can get people angry.

... but I personally am against people's religious beliefs being trampled

Where do you see this "trampling" taking place?


Religious beliefs are personal beliefs -- and for far too long Americans have been encouraged

to consider religion and politics taboo subjects -- not to be discussed in polite society.

Personally I think that has led us into serious difficulties.

When religious beliefs are brought out into the public arena -- and of course a website is a

public arena for debate -- then we have every right to question and challenge those beliefs.

These days -- under the guarantees of Separation of Church & State/democracy -- people are

more and more questioning and challenging male-supremacist religion.

The questioning and challenging in my observations is usually of the Church itself -- the

hierarchy --

but when someone tells me they can speak for the innocence and decency of the "vast majority

of priests" . . . well, that's highly questionable.

[Swagman]

29. I didn't say I knew the marority and I believe all people are

innocent unless, as in this particular matter you can show otherwise.

This raid sounds like overkill.

this passage seems to sum it up:

'"We know it's about sexual abuse on minors and so it's an important matter but we still don't know who it concerns or what it's all about so its all much to vague to decide what we are going to do right now."

The head of the Roman Catholic Church in Belgium, Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard, regretted, in an interview to Vatican Radio, that the search and the detention of the bishops had given the impression that they were suspects.

"Within a few hours the image of the Belgian church was tarnished," the Belga news agency reported him saying.'

[defendandprotect]

33. If you've read this Pope's instructions to put "Church Interests" over abused children . . .

I think you'd be more likely to questions what's actually been going on in this

church for 2000 years -- and as the Italians make clear, this is nothing new.

I didn't say I knew the marority and I believe all people are
innocent unless, as in this particular matter you can show otherwise.

The behavior of the hierarchy of the Vatican/RCC suggests a widespread cover up --

and much of this sexual abuse has not been been reported to law enforcement officoals --

they could get away with that at one time -- but I don't think they could in any country any

longer.

So -- no one is declaring anyone "guilty" without a trial and without thorough investigation

of these cases -- what we are saying is that these cases do have to be reported to police

and they have to be properly investigated. And all church records on these sexual abuse

cases should be turned over by the church.


If the Church's reputation has been tarnished, it has been tarnished by its own hand!


Meanwhile, here's this Pope Benedict and his instructions on these sexual abuse cases ...

Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests'

by EWAN FLETCHER
Last updated at 22:00 30 September 2006

Pope Benedict

The Pope played a leading role in a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests, according to a shocking documentary to be screened by the BBC tonight.
In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.
The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated.
The Panorama special, Sex Crimes And The Vatican, investigates the details of this little-known document for the first time. The programme also accuses the Catholic Church of knowingly harbouring paedophile clergymen. It reveals that priests accused of child abuse are generally not struck off or arrested but simply moved to another parish, often to reoffend. It gives examples of hush funds being used to silence the victims.
Before being elected as Pope Benedict XVI in April last year, the pontiff was Cardinal Thomas Ratzinger who had, for 24 years, been the head of the powerful Congregation of the Doctrine of The Faith, the department of the Roman Catholic Church charged with promoting Catholic teachings on morals and matters of faith. An arch-Conservative, he was regarded as the 'enforcer' of Pope John Paul II in cracking down on liberal challenges to traditional Catholic teachings.
Five years ago he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times.
Cardinal Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.
Patrick Wall, a former Vatican-approved enforcer of the Crimen Sollicitationis in America, tells the programme: "I found out I wasn't working for a holy institution, but an institution that was wholly concentrated on protecting itself."
And Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says: "What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.
"When abusive priests are discovered, the response has been not to investigate and prosecute but to move them from one place to another. So there's total disregard for the victims and for the fact that you are going to have a whole new crop of victims in the next place. This is happening all over the world."
The investigation could not come at a worse time for Pope Benedict, who is desperately trying to mend the Church's relations with the Muslim world after a speech in which he quoted a 14th Century Byzantine emperor who said that Islam was spread by holy war and had brought only evil to the world.
The Panorama programme is presented by Colm O'Gorman, who was raped by a priest when he was 14. He said: "What gets me is that it's the same story every time and every place. Bishops appoint priests who they know have abused children in the past to new parishes and new communities and more abuse happens."
Last night Eileen Shearer, director of the Catholic Office for the Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults said: "The Catholic Church in England and Wales (has) established a single set of national policies and procedures for child protection work. We are making excellent progress in protecting children and preventing abuse."
Panorama: Sex Crimes And The Vatican is on BBC1 tonight at 10.15pm.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407808/Pope-led-cover-child-abuse-priests.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...

"What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.

document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...men_englis...

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. There are statistics, you know. And the percentage is very small.

I believe appreciably smaller - as it should be - than that for the rest of society.

But surely, in the circumstances, accepting such relatively slight humiliations should be considered more than acceptable as some small measure atonement for the sins of the perpetrators and their protectors; indeed, the Church.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. But they are not the ones who stand on their dignity.

[defendandprotect]

23. Investigation should go forward as it normally would in non-religious atmosphere . . .

the Vatican has been given special treatment in America --

that's what has forestalled all of these invetigations --

and until recently they didn't even have to report these sexual abuse cases!!

[boppers]

27. Churches aren't people...

And just because a person works for a church doesn't give them any "special" rights as people.

..at least that's how I feel. In the US, church authorities get to dodge taxes as one of their "special rights".

[Swagman]

30. Surely the priests are as entitled to be treated the same as

anyone else.

[jwirr]

10. The Vatican had better figure out real fast that child abuse is a matter

of law not religion.

[hayrow]

11. A criminal enterprise is a criminal enterprise is a criminal enterprise

If the frightened of ex-communication law enforcement in this country had gotten serious about the child rapes, this outrage would have been exposed decades ago, and countless children would have led sex abuse free childhoods. These bastards are at least as guilty as the mafia, and any crime prevention and crime related punishments for these scum and their abettors will always be too little and too late.

[mitchtv]

12. in the next breath , they'll be saying

" they are not Vatican employees, don't look to us for recompense", as they already have

[Kber]

13. I like this quote

The head of the Roman Catholic Church in Belgium, Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard, regretted, in an interview to Vatican Radio, that the search and the detention of the bishops had given the impression that they were suspects.

"Within a few hours the image of the Belgian church was tarnished," the Belga news agency reported him saying.


Dude - it took years of abuse and coverups to tarnish the image of the Belgian church, and it's not the victims or the police's fault.

It's not like this was just one bad apple who was swiftly dealth with. It's the whole darn aparatus built up around the cover-up.

[defendandprotect]

25. +1000% --

[demoleft]

14. UPDATE: the belgian investigators reject Bertone's accusations...

...the bishops have had their meals during the time and searches were done by professionals who know their job and acted respecting personal rights - that's what they stated according to italian news agency ANSA.
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/mondo/2010/06/26/visualizza_new.html_1846700159.html

((ANSA) -BRUXELLES, 26 GIU- La Procura di Bruxelles respinge le accuse del card.Bertone: i vescovi trattenuti nella sede dell'arcivescovado hanno 'mangiato e bevuto'.'Le perquisizioni sono state condotte da professionisti -ha aggiunto la Procura- che conoscono molto bene il loro lavoro e che rispettano i diritti delle persone'.)

the Osservatore Romano, newspaper of the Vatican, had already assured that, though displeasing, everything had been done correctly.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8638852


so much for the provocative and uselessly aggressive words of card. bertone.

[skyounkin]

15. Good- take away their fake "statehood" bullshit too-

Lock everyone up and conduct a REAL investigation.

[The Hitman]

19. Can anyone clue me in?

How RC is Belgium? I know the country is largely split (linguistically, culturally) between France and Dutch roots. The former having a longstanding catholic tradition, the latter much more protestant. Is this only working because of a Belgian Protestant population? Why is it that only Belgium is doing this then?

[RainDog]

21. Belgium is Catholic - a Catholic majority.

The Netherlands is Protestant. The Flemish (Dutch) speaking people in Belgium do not have a Protestant tradition. They have always been Catholic.

But of the hundreds of people I have known from there - Catholicism is most often a cultural thing more than a religious thing - atheists choose godparents, people go through confirmation, etc... people attend midnight mass - but it's not the sort of religiosity that you see in the U.S.

In fact, people from Belgium that I know who have come to the states used to tape the religious shows to take home as comedy. They couldn't believe this nation could have such amazing research centers, universities, technology - and have such an ignorant population.

But of course there are people there who are also religious.

Ireland led the way for European nations to look at the abuse of priests. The revelations about abuse in Ireland are what have led other European nations to further investigations - and after people who had been abused as children spoke out in Ireland, people in other European countries began to speak out too... the floodgates opened.

[defendandprotect]

26. The courage of the victims, forced to silence for so long, has to be mentioned --

unbelievable suffering for them -- and unbelievable courage to tell their stories and

to pursue justice!

[demoleft]

28. UPDATE: Pope deplores 'sex abuse' raids by Belgian police

Pope Benedict has joined mounting Vatican criticism of raids by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse, calling them "deplorable".

In a message to Belgian bishops, the pope expressed his solidarity "in this moment of sadness".
...
"I want to express, dear brother in the Episcopate, as well as to all the Bishops of Belgium, my closeness and solidarity in this moment of sadness, in which, with certain surprising and deplorable methods, searches were carried out."

"I hope that justice will follow its course while guaranteeing the rights of individuals and institutions, respecting the rights of victims, (and) acknowledging those who undertake to collaborate with it," Pope Benedict said.

bbc, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10427935.stm


"respecting the rights of victims" - told by him sounds creepy - to say the least.

[Rex]

31. So a police raid is considered a 'deplorable method', but raping a boy

should be covered up at the cost of the humans own body & soul? Sure thing Pope, keep up that line of hypocritical bullshit. I'm sure Jesus is a'watching.

[demoleft]

32. UPDATE, monday june 28: Belgium Church abuse commission head quits over raids

The head of the Belgian Church-backed commission investigating cases of clerical sexual abuse has resigned.

Peter Adriaenssens said he was quitting and that the commission "had been used as bait", according to reports in the Belgian press.

After meeting on Monday, members of the commission have said they will step down on Thursday, Belgian reports say.

bbc, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10432827.stm

[RainDog]

35. I'm trying to get the context here

first this - why the raids came about

The Belgian Church was shaken in April when the Bishop of Bruges, Roger Vangheluwe, resigned and admitted to having sexually abused a boy before and after becoming a bishop.

this was around the time of the German abuse cases, iirc.

but then - the commissioner resigned- he says in the link;

"They (the police who did the raids) could only act in that way with the sentiment that we were in the wrong or that we were trying to conceal the cases," he said.

"This while I made a point of working in complete transparency.

He added that people who had spoken to the commission in confidence were "panicking".

"We received e-mails, telephone calls in the past few hours from people who are panicking about what will happen with their private details," he said"

-- but the raids were at the archbishop's palace and targeted other bishops. But the commissioner is worried about the victims of abuse who information, he fears, will be revealed b/c of information the prosecutor's office obtained from the raid on the bishops.

sort of confusing to me. unless he means he's afraid that the bishops have pictures or info about victims, I assume.

is that what you're hearing about the case?

[demoleft]

37. apparently, investigators took documents, computers and cellphones...

...so indeed the church-backed panel has no way to go on with its work.
moreover yes, you are right - they worry about the privacy of people who spoke in secret confession, probably.

but yes twice, as you say - the bishops are terrified by what the investigators may find, still secret or anyway undeclared by the church.
after all the official protests by mons bertone and the pope, the head of the panel could not but resign.

the catholic church acts in a very confused way these weeks. very nervous and clueless about what to do. so it seems.
we'll see.

[RainDog]

38. ah. the commission was created by the church, not the state

that was what had me a bit confused at first. that wasn't clear to me at first - even tho, I see now and it makes sense.

iow, sounds like the fear in the Belgian legal system was that this was another attempt to avoid getting at any truth - or a way to shield pedophiles from prosecution - which has been the case when the church let pedophiles relocate rather than face criminal charges.

okay, I get it.

seems to me that the precedent set by the church would have led a reasonable person to fear a cover up - combined with the recent remarks by the pope and various bishops who have gone out of their way to blame any and everyone but those who abused children.

no sympathy for those devils from me.

It will be interesting to see if the bishops covered up for the archbishop who admitted abuse. if so - and after so many cases in which this has been true - the church comes off as an international pedophile ring - whether that was the intent or not.

those who think they are above the law need to find out they're not.