It's fun to kill in Afghanistan, says top US commander

[Elmore Furth]

Source: The Independent

By Kim Sengupta, Defence Correspondent


Saturday, 10 July 2010

The US military, still recovering from the shock of the sacking of General Stanley McChrystal, its top commander in Afghanistan – is facing fresh problems over revelations that another top commander declared that it was "fun to shoot people" in Afghanistan.

A video of General James Mattis making his comments was yesterday spreading through the Muslim world at a fraught time in Afghanistan for the US and it's Western allies. General Mattis has been named as successor to General David Petreaus as head of US Central Command. General Petraeus is moving to Afghanistan after McChrystal's sacking over derogatory remarks made about President Obama to Rolling Stone magazine. But General Mattis has yet to be confirmed by the US Senate. The general led the controversial US military assault on the Iraqi city of Fallujah in 2004.

The comments which have come back to haunt him were made at a leadership seminar in 2005. He said: "Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know it's a helluva hoot. I'll be right up front with you. I like brawling. You go into Afghanistan, you get guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil ... guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary, said that the remarks were made five years ago and General Mattis had learnt his lesson. But one senior American officer serving in Kabul, said: "This is not what we want to see happen after a very difficult time in the campaign. But we don't think the Senate will block his appointment.



Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/its-fun-to-kill-in-afghanistan-says-top-us-commander-2023155.html

---

Generals say the funniest things.

[Angry Dragon]

1. "had learnt his lesson"

Yeah, how keep his thoughts to himself

I am sure he has really changed inside........

Maybe we just need to use neutron bombs, go in and get the resources that are ours, and then just go onto the next country to rape and pillage it. Would sure save a lot of time and money.

[saigon68]

114. "So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

He's a FUCKING COWARD----- a real Desk Commando

He sounds like an Einsatzkommando with a mental illness

Einsatzgruppen mobile killing squads – up to 3,000 men each – usually composed of 500-1000 functionaries of the SS and Gestapo, whose mission was to kill Jews, communists and the NKVD collaborators

[Bo]

161. You would be surprised how many soldiers like to KILL people

Thats why they join the military.

[msongs]

2. the guy is a laff riot nt

[Nostradammit]

8. I imagine his comment actually did make you laugh.

[Jakes Progress]

94. I'm confused.

How does yours statement jibe with your sig line?

[Nostradammit]

112. Doing good can take many forms

There is no animosity in my statement, only sorrow and pity.

[Jakes Progress]

121. I suppose it doesn't matter

but this is still confusing. Did you find the idea of shooting funny? Sorrow and pity for what? Why do you suppose the poster laughed at the concept?

Doesn't matter. Just unsure what you were trying to say.

[Nostradammit]

134. Are you familiar with the typical post from this particular poster?

[Jakes Progress]

135. Nope.

But I bet 90% who read your post aren't either.

[Nostradammit]

139. I wasn't addressing them.

[Jakes Progress]

157. It's called a forum.

You are always addressing them. A PM might have been you better venue.

As I said though, I was just curious. Enjoy.

[niyad]

3. it isn't just that appalling statement that is the problem, it's the coverup:

CENTCOM Nominee Led Fallujah Assault, Dropped Charges in Haditha Massacre

The Pentagon’s new nominee to head the U.S. Central Command is expected to draw scrutiny for a controversial record that includes outlandish comments and alleged disregard for Iraqi civilian life. On Thursday, Marine General James Mattis was tapped to replace General David Petraeus, who took over as the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan following the ouster of General Stanley McChrystal last month. As head of Camp Pendleton’s 1st Marine Division in Iraq, Mattis played a key role in the two U.S. assaults on Fallujah in 2004. The assaults killed hundreds if not thousands of Fallujah residents, displaced thousands more, and destroyed much of the city. Mattis later dismissed almost all of the charges against eight accused Marines involved in the November 2005 massacre of twenty-four unarmed Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha. Of the eight Marines originally charged in the case, only one still faces prosecution. In February 2005, Mattis was reprimanded after he told a public event that he enjoys fighting in places like Afghanistan because "it’s fun to shoot some people." He said: "You know, it’s a hell of a hoot… I’ll be right upfront with you, I like brawling."


http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/9/headlines#4

[gateley]

4. Oh Lordy - we couldn't unearth that before he was appointed? nt

[ashling]

9. I remember when it was breaking news

[No Elephants]

15. Again, does no one in D. C. know how to Google? (I've been asking the same

question since criminal Kerik was supposedly going to be the first head of Homeland Security)

[Robb]

32. A fair question. This was discussed at length here on DU

...IIRC, when it happened.

1) How is this a "revelation," and

2) What the hell is Obama thinking?

[saigon68]

115. Obama isn't thinking

To Keep thugs like this Cheney Bot

on to "Kill RagHeads" tarnishes any admiration I have for him

[dotymed]

50. Everyone in D.C.

is clueless about everything outside of their "dog eat dog" political world. They are so busy trying to keep their jobs (not pissing off the "big boys"), that is all they have time to worry about. Our nation sucks. At the very least, our government "headquarters" (currently in D.C.) should be dispersed. Maybe BP can help them with that :( .
We should have at least 5-6 "sections", where there are main federal government headquarters. By keeping it all in D.C., there is absolutely no chance that the government can be responsive to the needs of the people all over America. Bust their fucking cliques up. Lets get some real representative government. When the population of America was under a million (?), a central location may have been tenable. In the 21st century it is a massive mistake.
One of many, many...
We need verifiable elections, progressive tax rates that progress waay beyond $250,000 (just like we used to have), billionaires can spend more than that on their toilet (no shit).Mostly we need a government that is responsible to the average (majority) people, not the wealthy. All elections should be publicly financed. Amazingly, nothing has still been done about the "citizens united" (doublespeak) SCOTUS decision that is going to sell our "elected officials" to the highest bidder.
It is past time for a revolution. Hopefully, a peaceful one. WE have to make it happen....

[bertman]

78. HEAR!! Hear!! Well said, dotymed.

[gateley]

88. At the time? Didn't the WH hear or investigate it? (Rhetorical, frustrated

question - not expecting you to know the answer. :7)

[DrDan]

22. that would have made a difference?

[gateley]

89. I would have hoped they wouldn't choose someone who thinks killing Afghanis is fun!

[Catherina]

5. End this war now. It makes us all dirty. n/t

[CountAllVotes]

10. agree

I have a cousin that enlisted in the Army about 2 years ago with promises that he'd be sent off to a training school to learn a specific profession that did not involve killing other human beings.

He was sent off to a training school alright and the profession he is learning is how to kill people in Afghanistan.

He just got back and is scheduled to return in September for his second heroic tour.

GOD DAMN YOU ALL THAT SUPPORT THIS FUCKING SHIT WAR! I am :mad: as all hell about this forever war in Afghanistan shit and yes that is something you can believe in!

:dem:

[Stuart G]

17. K and R..... I agree also

[USArmyParatrooper]

19. What's his MOS?

[Pavulon]

37. Not to be a jerk. But if you enlist in the army during a war

you may expect to see combat. I was in the national guard with a COMBAT engineering mos and still got to go on a tour of the former Yugoslavia. I expected to be handing out water bottles after hurricanes.

[bitchkitty]

41. Even if you enlist when there is no war,

you could be caught up in it. My nephew was in the Guard on 9/11, and ended up in Iraq.

[Pavulon]

43. I hope he stays safe and is with good guys..(nt)

[bitchkitty]

159. He made it through and is attending college in Portland

now, and expecting his third early next year! It was a very hard 2 years for everyone but thank God he made it.

[CountAllVotes]

54. I advised his family to tell him not to do this

in fact I told his family to tell him to find something else to do - anything at all I told them. They were certain that he had worked out a "deal" with the U.S. Army. I knew this was a crock of lies. However, he did it anyway and now he is on the hook.

You are right, he enlisted and had to go. However, he was lied to and now his family is saying, "Well we learned something there ...". :dunce: I must say.

Sadly his grandfather recently passed away. Before he died (he was deemed "senile") he told my cousin not to be too damn good in the U.S. Army and not to be the perfect soldier as he'd end up getting shipped out. He didn't listen to his grandfather who knew only too well what he'd end up doing being he was in the U.S. Navy during WWII. :(

My cousin didn't listen to his old grandfather nor me and now he is paying the price. I hope to god he doesn't get killed is all I can say.

[Plucketeer]

75. That's the truth!

Recruiters will tell you ANYTHING you want to hear if you'll just help them meet their quota!

FOUR years to CRUSH the Axis powers with "dumb" weapons and forced recruits - vs. - NINE years to rout a handful of baddies with RPGs as their most advanced weapons, while we have "smart" weapons (EDIT to add):, professional personell and global surveillance options. WHAT lesson do we take from this???

[Flatulo]

87. WWII was all-out, no-holds barred combat. Civilian populations were

decimated by the hundreds of thousands. The stated goal in WWII was to bring the enemy to complete and utter destruction.

We could bomb Afhanistan into a fine powder, then bomb the powder. But that is not the stated goal of the war. The stated goal is to produce a stable state that will not allow safe haven to al Qaeda. This puts us at a huge disadvantage since our troops are more often than not prevented from even shooting back these days.

If your're going to fight a war like this, you may as well give up and go home.

[Plucketeer]

130. I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree, but...

...there's the incessant BULLSHIT coming from the Pentagon that we CAN WIN THIS. There IS NO WIN to be won. We have to stop ASKING the military if there can be a win. What do you expect life-long military folks are gonna tell you??? "No sir - there's no hope." ????

[Flatulo]

137. The military are trained to achieve the mission objectives, even if they

are impossible.

I initially supported Obama's 'surge' in Afghanistan, but now I'm having second thoughts. Not to sound racist or elitist, but the Afghans simply do not want to live in a liberal democracy. The Taliban brought order and 'justice' (however peverse we may think their medeval justice is).

Once again, we do not understand the local culture. The Iraqis were much more sophisticated and secular than the Afghans, and may yet see peace again in that shattered country.

At this point, I could accept an Afghanistan withdrawal and a low-intensity covert mission to kill al Qaeda as the opportunity arises.

I think the 'winning the hearts and minds' ship has sailed, and the ramblings of a gung-ho Marine are not going to make things any worse for our guys. They just don't want us there and are going to continue to try to kill us at every opportunity.

I do appreciate your perspective.

[saigon68]

122. This is more fun

[liberation]

57. Going to the army expecting not to learn how to kill people...

.... its like singing up to work in a whore house and expecting to keep your virginity.

Unless you're in charge of cleaning the toilets and washing the towels, it ain't gonna happen.

[dana_b]

77. liars on top of their other list of "accomplishments"

the top leadership of this war really know how to do it, eh?

I am pissed but not completely surprised that this was said/done to your cousin. I imagine it happens a lot but I hope for his sake he doesn't need to use his skill too often.

[boppers]

150. Maybe he can join Ford later, believing he won't have to deal with cars.

You can't fix stupid.


edit: . = ,

[global1]

6. Those Remarks Are Just Disgusting - Imagine If The Tables Were Turned And......

and one of our enemies said that about Americans. Think about what the average American would think about such a comment. Think about how our press would react. Think about what that sentiment would do to our soldiers that were meant to fight that enemy. So - bottom line - who's the terrorist now?

This Mattis should voluntarily resign or be fired on the spot. It's statements like that and the condoning of torture and Abu Gharib and Guantanamo that get our soldiers killed. It just illustrates that we are no more civilized than the men that Mattis said "ain't got no manhood left anyway".

I really don't think that the majority of American people think like Mattis. I'm embarrassed for us to have a person like this as the head of U.S. Central Command.

This guy sounds like some stereotypical General that's portrayed in the movies.

He should be let go!!!!!!

Problem is the likes of McChrystal and Mattis would probably wind up being hired by Blackwater or is is Xe.

[clixtox]

7. Mattis' bloodthirsty, sociopathic, or worse, comment was made...

FIVE years ago! This frightening insight to where this nutcase's mind is centered hasn't been detrimental to his career in the least! He is on track to be the next #1 in Afghanistan, after "Betrayus" retires, or is fired.

The commander of the occupying army of mercenaries in the movie AVATAR could have been modeled on this example of "American" virility and simplicity, General Mattis.

If this story somehow gains traction Mattis's military career will be toast, one would hope...

If brains were dynamite our leading generals, it looks like, couldn't blow their noses!

[wmbrew0206]

143. Reading the ingorance in this post really hurt.

First, Mattis is not "on track to be the next #1 in Afghanistan." Petraeus took a demotion to replace McChrystal. The commanding general in Afghanistan reports to the CG of CentCom. Petraeus was the CG of CentCom and is now the CG of CFC-Afghanistan. Mattis will now be Petraeus' superior in the chain of command structure. I doubt Petraeus will be asking Mattis for orders or Mattis will be giving Petraeus orders. Petraeus will handle Afghanistan and tell Mattis what he needs and what he can do to help with the surrounding countries. However there is no doubt that Mattis is now above Petraeus in the chain of command.

Second, Mattis career, up until McChrystals resignation, was over. Mattis was going to retire without ever having one of the really big four star commands open to him, CentCom, EuCom, Commandant of the Marine Corps, CJCS or a VCJCS. Mattis was in the running for both EuCom and Commandant last year but his comments in the past is what caused Obama to probably pass him over for those posts. McChrystal's resignation and Petraeus taking over Afghanistan left an opening at CentCom that was going to be extremely tricky with the former boss now answering to the new boss. Mattis was the only general who is on par with Petraeus on a intellectual, seniority and leadership level.

It is an absolute disgrace to equate Mattis to the head of the mercenaries in AVATAR. Mattis is famous in the Marine Corps and the military for wanting to use diplomacy and soft tactics to win the hearts and minds of the local population as the first and most preferred course of action. The use of full scale combat actions was only used as a last resort.

This story is OLD NEWS. Mattis has had four command tours since this story came out and he has succeeded at all of them. Since this Mattis said this quote, he commanded 1st MarDiv in OIF I & II. Then commanded I MEF during OIF 4 and 5. This story has already had traction, was judged as unfortunate comment that is now history.

I would recommend that you go do a little more research on Mattis and the opinions of him by military observers from the left who agree that he has an astounding intellect and deep understanding of how to fight the current conflicts the US is engaged in.

[elias49]

149. LOL!

All Generals are ass-kissers. That's how they get to be generals. Know what else our dear Mattis said (in Iraq, in this case)

"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all"

Helluva guy.

[saigon68]

160. Soft Tactics Oh ya what planet is that on?

[LawnKorn]

13. Disgusting remarks made five years ago reflecting the perceptions of a previous Administration

The Bush Administration was criminal. Bush lied to start illegal wars, lied to keep the wars going, and selected criminal commanders to pursue the wars.

Bush kept the country engaged in his war for profit by appointing commanders who found war to be entertaining. General Mattis may have a little of Brigadier General Jack Ripper embedded in his persona.

[No Elephants]

24. Maybe, but this administration is the one that just

nominated Mattis to command for the U.S.and its Western allies, instead of relieving him of his duties in 2009.

I think we lose all credibility when we try to blame things Obama continues, or even expands, solely on Bush. May as well blame Bush for things like lying Bernanke's heading the Fed right now, or for Gates' being our current Secretary of Defense.

I'd rather stick to blaming Bushco for things they and they alone own, things Obama can never rightly be said to have ratified, maybe like invading Iraq illegally and dishonestly.

[LawnKorn]

27. The US mission in Afghanistan reached maximum effectiveness in 2003

The Bush administration continued the war in Afghanistan and started a second war in Iraq for the profit of the defense industry. The inertia of money changing hands is difficult to stop particularly if the receivers of the money hold significant political power.

President Obama is in charge of the Executive Branch, but cannot rule the Legislative branch. The defense industry has influence over the majority of of Congressmen. The military tends to be on the side of the defense contractors, and will advise the President in the direction of sustained combat operations. Politics is a dirty avocation, and the President bargains for power with human life. It is a job few would want. The politics of running the whole country, not just the wars, requires compromise among the powerful. This compromise is costing the lives of several US service men a week and billions of dollars a day.

I am confident our President will end both of these wars. My only hope the time line is quicker that is appears.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. What you think is an excuse is a description of dereliction of

duty on the part of the President of the United States. I would rather see the fact that he endorses and appoints this monster of his own free will as the single most powerful man on Earth. He's the President of the United States of America. The buck stops with him.

[ixion]

11. War Criminals say the darndest things...

and this little dandy belongs in the Hague along with the rest of his neocon buddies.

[No Elephants]

18. One of the best subject lines ever, for fitting the OP cleverly.

[USArmyParatrooper]

20. What war crimes is he guilty of?

[No Elephants]

25. And people say I'm too literal!

[xed_out]

46. I'll venture a guess that

an oblique reference to Fallujah is intended. For one.
Some people think the destruction of Fallujah, with all the death and misery that entailed, was criminal. Other people, psychopaths and so on, might consider it to be "fun".

[Downtown Hound]

58. Well, he did play a major part in Operation Phantom Fury

In which thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed, some by execution. White Phosphorous, the skin burning chemical, was also used, which has been banned by international treaty. Ever since that operatin birth defects have risen dramatically in Falluja, believed to be the result of U.S. chemical weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da2a1UPsnxY

[saigon68]

156. He is a War Criminal

[draa]

12. Our problem...

is people like Mattis and the Brig General that Maddow had on her program the other night. They are the reason we are failing so badly there IMO. Total incompetence coupled with the inability to understand their actions are THE PROBLEM. Until that is addressed it will never stabilize. Bring them home.

[LawnKorn]

14. K&R

[No Elephants]

16. If Obama does not get this bloodthirsty, bad judgment, bigoted fucker to withdraw his name from

consideration, how much less safe will we be?

Fun to kill? I never met a vet of any war who had killed who was not haunted by it. What kind of person is this? And what kind of judgment does he have to admit this publicly?

What kind of judgment does it take to nominate and/or confirm him, despite this?

Maybe he learned "his lesson" to say less, but he did he learn good judgment and humanity, too? Gates does not even imply anything like the transformation necessary to make his nomination (by Gates and the Pentagon to Obama) a sane move.

As bad or worse, Gates seems to see this as only a failure on the part of Mattis to keep his (Mattis's) mouth shut. When will Obama rid us of this sick, incompetent, bad judgment Republican fool?

the Senate will confirm? Seriously? I'm going to call Kerry and the Brown turd. I can do nothing more against Brown than I already plan to do. However, if Kerry votes for Mattis's approval, I'm going to volunteer for the next person who tries to primary Kerry; and I've been voting (proudly) for Kerry longer than some of you have been alive.

[bulloney]

80. Mattis will probably tell you he's a pro-life Republican.

That's the mindset of the pro-lifers I know. No problem invading countries and killing their people. But do not abort a fetus under any circumstance.

[lunasun]

128. I worked with a pro who spent his weekends picketing and harrassing

women at an abortion clinic HOWEVER he once told me that once a person has a trial and is convicted of a violent crime or theft , they should be executed , that way we would not have to spend $$ on prisons. .....

U are right they only really care about denying womens rights and protecting a fetus not against anything to do with killing a person or saving children either.

I told him I had read many times and my mother had told me that the crime ratio had actually gone down after legal abortion was allowed. He looked like he was sending hellfire to me through his eyes, but did not comment.

Also I might add he was married and had no children and never adopted any by the age of 45 or so.

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/00p599hk

Also remember this puke Mattis is killing non christians who as he states aren't real men anyway so if a few non christian civillians get killed too in the mess it is OK because they are scum anyway and it is
not like one of"" God's chosen ""getting killed which is then a terrible thing and must be revenged! uugh and he is the leader....imagine

[barbtries]

21. isn't this the same US military

that has its recruits chanting "KILL KILL KILL KILL" in basic training? i'm surprised he didn't just come out and mention how fun "collateral damage" can be to inflict. wedding parties, innocent children, those poor abused women - yep, we kill 'em all. yee haw

in case it wasn't obvious :sarcasm:

[FlyByNight]

23. So much for winning the hearts and minds

Can we please just get the fuck out of Afghanistan soon, sooner, soonest?

"Generals gathered in their masses..."

:grr:

[deaniac21]

26. Gates doesn't seem to be the type who would use the word

learnt.

[Clear Blue Sky]

28. Does he like the smell of napalm in the morning too?

[Crowman1979]

29. Yeah it sure is fun when your a general in an air-conditioned HQ, never firing a shot.

:sarcasm:

[Robb]

34. To be fair, there's a Bronze Star with Valor on his rack

...so at some point he was a Marine out in the sun.

Apparently he was in the sun a touch too long.

[elias49]

123. He was awarded a Bronze Star for what, exactly? nt

[Robb]

124. No idea, just noticed it in a photo. nt

[Joe Chi Minh]

116. Oh.. but he loves brawling. You can just see it can't you? A little Glasgow keelie would fix him

before he knew the fight had started.

[wmbrew0206]

142. You do realize that Mattis is famous for going out on missions with plattons, companies, and

battalions in the combat zone when he was the CG of 1st MarDiv and I MEF, right?

No other general in his peer group has probably been shot at as much as Mattis since they pin on their stars.

[Crowman1979]

162. Whatever fanboy!

Unless you've actually were in the USMC and in Iraq or Afghanistan like I have, then I could care less about your opinion derived from whatever you found on youtube, wikipedia or the DoD public affairs office.

[burnsei sensei]

30. An officer and a sociopath.

nt

[Sciguy]

33. Scary. Where do we find these guys...

... and why do we keep promoting them? Are we trying to get ourselves killed over there? Are we trying to get ourselves even more hated in the Muslim world than we already are?

[fascisthunter]

35. Serial Killers Say the same thing.... however it's fun for them anywhere

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Merchant Marine]

38. Sounds like something a Marine would say...

[tekisui]

39. This sociopath was a major player in the Fallujah massacre.

Another horrible pick from Obama.

[patrice]

40. More PROOF that We Are War Slaves! More soldiers will die, "we" will have to stay longer in

Afghanistan because of what ONE man said.

This is a hearty "Fuck You ALL. Get out there and DIE for my career."

If the Senate confirms this nomination, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM SHOULD BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE.

[katandmoon]

42. K&R

[wmbrew0206]

44. Oh for Fuck sake, Mattis is one of the best generals out there, he just has a foot in mouth issue!

Mattis is highly regarded by all branches of the military as one of the brightest minds and best leaders in the military today.

However, he is a little different than his peers. He has never been married (almost unheard of for a general). Yes, he has a problem of putting his foot in his mouth. He has been counseled twice by two different Commandants for it.

However, he is well known for several other quotes that are fantastic in terms of how he expects his troops to act:

"An untrained or uneducated Marine...deployed to the combat zone is a bigger threat to mission accomplishment...than the enemy"

"Demonstrate to the world there is 'No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy' than a U.S. Marine. "

"You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon."

And finally on the "killing is fun" quote. I had just come back from Afghanistan went Mattis said this. Everyone who I was with on that deployment looked at each other and was like, I would not have said that out loud. However, if we do have to fight and we do have to take lives, killing men who beat the shit out of women, sodomize young boys, and execute people for the slights offenses (like being homosexual) in very nasty ways would be the men you want to go up against.

[xed_out]

52. that isn't "foot in mouth"

that's an explanation of motivation. Coupled with a pretext that fits with a culture of contempt for the religion and people that the US is set on subjugating or exterminating.

If this is america's best, god help america.

[wmbrew0206]

53. If you think Mattis has contept for the religion of islam, you need to pull your head out of your

you know where.

This guy has lived and worked with more Iraqis and Afghanis than most Americans have ever seen, let alone met. He probably has a better understanding of Islam and its tenants than most non-Muslims.

[xed_out]

71. "lived and worked with more Iraqis and Afghanis"

He's one of the leaders of a preemptive war and subsequent occupation. He led in the destruction of Fallujah. That's a mighty odd take on "living and working with" people.
As for the culture of contempt that I spoke of, one has only to read the US MSM for a couple minutes to get the general drift of it. It's universal - coming from 'left', 'right', and 'center'. How can you possibly be oblivious of it, even while promoting and defending it?

[wmbrew0206]

146. Apparently you have not been paying attention to how the Iraq and Afghan war have been fought.

During every single combat command Mattis has held, he has been either in charge of or worked with Iraqi Army or Afghan militia forces. Working with indigenous forces is extremely difficult and requires commanders to cultivate a good working relationship with them, most often through developing mutual trust through shared hardships and cultural understandings.

Mattis fought with a lot of Afghan militia during his command in '02 at TF 58. During Fullujah, two separate Iraqi Division participated in the planning and execution of the battle plan to clear the city. During which time, Mattis worked hand in hand with the Iraqi commanders and their staffs to ensure the Iraqi knew the plan and that they could count on US forces supporting them during the fight.

As for the cultural contempt that you refer to, it mainly rests in the US public and not within the military. The US military has spent so much time around the different cultures of both the Iraqis and the Afghans that we respect it and understand how to work within its frame works. The officers and NCO's have enough experience to know that we cannot change a culture. We have had to learn it and find ways to work within it to find a solution to our shared problems rather than implementing an American fix. Today you will find more officers, Staff Sergeants and Senior NCOs that know more about the inner workings of the Iraqi and Afghan culture than scholars who have studied them for a long time.

[xed_out]

152. As has everyone else I know, very close.

you propagandize:
"During every single combat command Mattis has held, he has been either in charge of or worked with Iraqi Army or Afghan militia forces. Working with indigenous forces is extremely difficult and requires commanders to cultivate a good working relationship with them, most often through developing mutual trust through shared hardships and cultural understandings."

That sounds so beautiful and saintly that I could weep. It's false, of course. A very thin veneer of falsehood, at that. The only motivator that the US military has for enticing Iraqis, and Afghanis, to collaborate with the invading armies of conquest, is $$$. The US military knows that. And the US military knows that after destroying Iraq's economy and infrastructure, including social infrastructure (easy for the US to do, with its vast military resources), the populations are left helpless and desperate. Tens of thousands (or more) killed, millions of people displaced, millions of refugees, the rest very much aware how near the edge. And ripe to be baited by wads of US $$$.

That, of course, was the bloody *plan*.

Even in better situations of military invasions of conquest where much much less of the culture and infrastructure is destroyed, as with Germany's invasion of and conquest of France in WW2, there are enough of those of the defeated nation who'll do the dirty for the invaders. Who'll collaborate at all levels, no matter how despicable. Unfortunately, there are always those... Just as there are always those invaders who'll enjoy to join in on e.g. the systematic block by block destruction of a whole city. For the cause of "freedom" (as defined by the invading conquerors) and "democracy" (as defined by the invading conquerors), or "x" and "y" (as defined by t i c), of course. Even thinking, because their military forces are so overwhelminly superior, that such a crime against humanity is "fun". "Why not?", they may think, "there'll be no negative consequences to *me*, the invader, and as a winner I can always do my bit to write a pretty self-serving narrative after the fact" --- as you did above.

[ThomasQED]

83. tenets

[saigon68]

120. This guy is a THUG and a War Criminal

[liberation]

61. Gotta love the USA, no matter how much and how big you f*ck up...

... there will always someone out there who will rush to defend you.

Good grief, sure he is a tad psychotic and mentally disturbed blood thirsty individual in charge of large number of men over there, but he is a nice guy otherwise. Really? I weep for this country, I really do.

[wmbrew0206]

62. It also sad that you are basing your judgement of this man off of one quote that

is being total misaligned on this thread.

Like I told others here, go do some research on what Mattis has accomplished and then tell me if you still feel the same way.

Listen, I am not saying the dude isn't a little strange, and says some shit that he should probably keep to himself, but he is still one of the best generals in the military today and probably the only who could take over for Petraeus.

[ThomasQED]

84. maligned

[wmbrew0206]

100. You are correct, I meant to say maligned. Thank you.

[tekisui]

101. I base my judgment on his role in Fallujah. This quote only reinforces

that judgment.

[IndianaGreen]

133. Was he in command in Fallujah?

I didn't know that. In fact, I don't know anything about this guy because he is a Marine. I am familiar with the Army. I will do some research on him.

[tekisui]

151. CENTCOM Nominee Led Fallujah Assault, Dropped Charges in Haditha Massacre

Source: Democracy Now!

The Pentagon’s new nominee to head the U.S. Central Command is expected to draw scrutiny for a controversial record that includes outlandish comments and alleged disregard for Iraqi civilian life. On Thursday, Marine General James Mattis was tapped to replace General David Petraeus, who took over as the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan following the ouster of General Stanley McChrystal last month. As head of Camp Pendleton’s 1st Marine Division in Iraq, Mattis played a key role in the two U.S. assaults on Fallujah in 2004. The assaults killed hundreds if not thousands of Fallujah residents, displaced thousands more, and destroyed much of the city. Mattis later dismissed almost all of the charges against eight accused Marines involved in the November 2005 massacre of twenty-four unarmed Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/9/headlines/centcom_nominee_led_fallujah_assault_dropped_charges_in_haditha_massacre
______________________

This guy is a sociopath and probably a war criminal. A real piece of scum. Good choice, Obama!

[IndianaGreen]

153. Thanks for the info! A very troubling portrait indeed.

And it reflects poorly on the man that nominated him for the post.

[IndianaGreen]

132. I will do some research and will withhold judgment

until I see how he performs. How's that?

[patrice]

67. Fine! I'm glad he's a good officer. But his little foot-in-mouth disease will cost lives and time

and money that would not have been necessary if he had just gone about his job, to the maximum killing even if that's his professional judgment, with his mouth shut. What he has said has made everything worse.

[wmbrew0206]

96. What the hell are you taliking about? That quote is from 2004! Since then Mattis has lead troops

in Iraq twice and that quote has had no impact on him or his operations. So how is going to cost lives, time, and money now, six years later?

[Doc Martin]

70. The question is one of morality not intellect, leadership, or accomplishments

[wmbrew0206]

145. Doc, very fair point. But how would you judge the morality of having to fight any war?

As I have said a couple times in this thread, as a military officer you never really want to go to war because of its extensive costs in blood, wealth, and long term effects on the men and women who fight it. However, when it does become necessary, you only hope that the enemy you fight is so moral decrepit that you have very few moral qualms about killing them. I will say there is always a slight wonder of how you would preform in combat at one point or another, but this is always squashed when the reality of having to lose one of your men or women is realized.

It is something that ever military member has struggled with during the war the fought. Ever enemy member is someone's son or daughter and has a family that is only hoping for their safe return. Some enemies had no choice but to join and fight, the Germans in WWI & WWII and the Iraqis in Desert Storm as examples. These people were forced into fighting and did not participate willingly. (There are several exceptions in both cases.)

In Afghanistan it is a different case. The Taliban were/are a group of men who follow a very perverted version of Islam that even the Saudis abhor. They treated women horribly and sexually abused young men and women repeatedly. They also had no problems executing people for the slightest perceived improprieties. To add on to it, the Afghan culture has a long history of allowing tribal leaders to switch sides at a moments notice based on the best interests of the tribe. What Mattis was fighting in '02 and what he was referring to was the hard core elements of the Taliban that truly believed in the culture they had implemented (which was way outside of the Afghan cultural norm before their ascent to power). The majority of these men had the opportunity to switch sides and have absolutely no social stigma associated with it. The men who remained to fight against the US were so programed into the Taliban and AQ belief system that the only way to defeat them was to kill them. There was no reasoning with them or hope of finding a common ground.

As I have said repeatedly, Mattis should not have said what he did. It was a huge mistake. However it does not change the fact that the US military was probably facing the enemy in the Taliban and AQ that any soldier from a modern country would hope to have to fight in the unfortunate situation that they had to fight and kill an enemy.

[truedelphi]

85. Women still don't have equality in this nation. And the fact that so much of our

government's budget allows people to go over to faraway nations and kill the foreigners there, means fewer jobs here for everyone (except for those in the defense industry.) Talk to women who are in the trades if you want to get a sense of inequality.

If men were even close to perfect here, your comment would deserve less disdain. But one might ask, "Why are there so many battered women's shelters here?" Why do so many members of so many police departments still come up with reasons not to arrest the man assaulting a woman (usually his own wife)?

And many of those battered women's shelters are now closing down because of lack of funding.

People kill other people usually because they like it (Except in those cases where our nation has been attacked, as was the case in WWII.) Coming up with some reasons as to how the foreigners deserve it as they are so much worse than us is ridiculous. Already the Afghan people are trying to find spots on boats to get themselves out of their own country - trying to make it to East Timor and then on to Australia So Australia now is busy changing its immigration policies so as to not have to submit to huge increases in its population as a result of our warring on the Afghan people.

[wmbrew0206]

99. Last time I checked the 9/11 attacks were planned and executed by a group based in Afghanistan

so this is a case where we were attacked, unless you are in the MIHOP or LIHOP crowd.

Yes there is still not equality in the US between men and women. (I've worked in construction so I know what you are talking about with women in the trades.) However, there are still degrees of inequality and last time I checked, women in the US were not beaten for being out of their house without a male relative present or executed for adultery.

[truedelphi]

109. Of Course I am in the MIHOP and LIHOP camp, as are 67% of the

people living in the New York City area. It is difficult to bring oneself to that awful realization, but there is no other way, according to the laws of physics, that two separate towers could come down in under fifteen seconds, and the rubble to land inside the buildings' footprints, unless there was a demolition charge, made of thermite, placed inside the Towers.

Why were the news reporters on the scene describing again and again the many "explosions" that occurred in the Towers?

But in any event, the man supposedly behind these 9/11 attacks has been dead for quite a while. (According to most in the know in the Far East) In fact the reason that Bhutto was done in may well be traced to her remarks that went out over that BBC that Bin Laden was dead.

And our fighting men had Bin Laden in their crosshairs many years ago, in the hills of Afghanistan/Pakistan borders, but were not allowed to make the kill... Why was that?

The Pow3ers that Be need to invoke "patriotism" so that people will continue to sign up and fight in these wars.But once you take Bin Laden out of the equation, you have to realize that the real reason we are there has much more to do with resources (over a trillion bucks worth of minerals and oil) and also examine words of the official who told the Afghanistan officials, either you offer us the right to build an oil pipeline, across your nation, and receive a carpet of gold for your efforts, or else you will receive a carpet of bombs. Less than two years later, the people in Afghanistan felt our carpet of bombs. (information used to be right on the front pages of the official CIA website.)

[wmbrew0206]

141. Reads sign "Don't force this thread in to the dungeon." Then turns around and walks away.

[truedelphi]

158. Amazingly the comment is still here.

Though I am a bit surprised.

[Capitalocracy]

45. So THAT's why we're still in Afghanistan! nt

[LiberalFighter]

47. Mattis needs to go. So should Robert Gates and anyone else that condones that type of attidude.

War should not be about having fun.

[wmbrew0206]

48. Yeah, lets get rid of one of the best generals we have and probably the only one

who can manage CentCom with Petraeus being a subordinate in Afghanistan, for something he said over six years ago.

[LiberalFighter]

51. If he's so great then why isn't the war over?

[wmbrew0206]

55. Are you fucking kidding? Do you know how stupid your question/comment is?

First off, Mattis last operational command was I MEF in late '06 and was in charge of Al Anbar in the run up to the surge. It was his work with the local tribal leaders that lead to the awakening and that allowed the surge to work. The reason the Marines are now out of Iraq is because of General Mattis.

Second, Mattis has not had any part in the planning or execution of the Afghan war since 2002 when he was the CG of TF 58. Since then he has been in charge of multiple other commands, including I MEF see above, but none of them had anything to do with Afghanistan.

Asking why the war isn't over and then blaming it on Mattis is absolutely ridiculous.

[Joe Chi Minh]

118. "The reason the Marines are now out of Iraq is because of General Mattis."

Surely, the reason is that it had become more politic to use mercenaries, minimally answerable to anyone. Are there not more mercenaries there than there were regular military, including special forces?

The fortified bases are in place, for the future, should they be needed. You also have a giant fortress which apparently doubles as an embassy.

[wmbrew0206]

138. Nope. Not the case at all. There were about 20k Marines in Al Anbar.

There are not enough private security forces to replace that many Marines. Not even close.

Also, please realize the difference between contractors and private security forces (mercenaries). Private contractors are doing everything from organizing convoys to providing project management on infrastructure projects to cooking meals and doing laundry on base. So be careful when you hear the term contractors equated to private security forces.

[Joe Chi Minh]

164. Regular soldiers perform the same functions, so your distinction has no validity. They

are all mercenaries, personnel working for an army of occupation, in one capacity or another.

Not every branch of the regular army is part of the teeth arm - infantry, armour, etc. It needs a support arm. Private contractors, when not acting as mercenary troops of the teeth arm, are the mercenary equivalents of that support arm.

"There are not enough private security forces to replace that many Marines. Not even close."

You must be joking! For some mysterious reason, in vew of its wealth of natural resources and the constant activities of left-wing resistance fighters, there would be a catchment of millions of very poor men, husbands and fathers, in South and Central America, who would accept "the king's shilling" out of desperation; just as there are former fishermen, now reduced to working for BP, the company that destroyed their livelihood.

[crim son]

56. It's a shame that the best general we have

doesn't understand a damn thing about winning the hearts and minds of anybody. What if the general had said he enjoyed buggering people in Afghanistan? Would you still be defending him?

[wmbrew0206]

59. You would be a lot better off if you did a little research on Mattis rather than

judging him on one quote.

Mattis understands more about winning hearts and minds than anyone on this board. The fact that the Marines are out of Al Anbar is directly related to his ability to talk the Iraqi tribal leaders into working with the US against AQI rather trying to fight them on their own.

Do the research before making such broad statements.

[crim son]

63. And you would have a lot more credibility

if you'd answer my question. Furthermore, the good that the General has done is easily undone by statements like his. All I have to do is imagine a "good" Afghan general saying the same thing about killing in the U.S. and I wouldn't care if he'd been handing out hotdogs to neighborhood kids between his attacks.

Not everybody is as insensitive as a stone, especially when it comes to murder.

[wmbrew0206]

72. I am not defending Mattis' comment. I think it was a mistake and he would take it back if he could.

As I have said, Mattis is a little strange. However, he was not talking about killing innocent Afghans. He was talking about killing the Taliban and AQ, a group of men who had perverted Islam some much that even the Saudis thought they were nuts. This included beating women, sodomizing young boys, not allowing women to go to school, and executing people for small things, including being homosexual. Like I said before if you have to go to war and take lives, these are the type of people you hope it is against.

Also, clearly you have never been to Afghanistan. Most of the Afghans agreed with Mattis since they fought along side him and his troops to throw the Taliban out of their power base in Kandahar. The contempt most Afghans have for the Taliban is worse than what Mattis said about them.

It is ridiculous to say that all the good Mattis has done in his career (specifically in Al Anbar and Afghanistan) has been undone by one quote.

[Jefferson23]

49. So demonize the enemy with a broad brush so we can continue

our interests in Afghanistan...make it less offensive to kill, since you have to kill regardless, might as well be fun.


Is this really an atypical approach to war?


Obama wants this man with what happened in Fallujah, and now that his statements have resurfaced and undoubtedly will continue to
fuel anti-American sentiment is a good idea? There must be someone else they can appoint.

[stray cat]

60. it sounds like he doesn't like people who beat women

I bet he would even enjoy shooting someone splashing acid into a little girls face walking to school...

Is it that much different than the additudes we sometimes see displayed toward Rush Limbaugh or Dick Cheney or republicans in general - we tend to do alot of broad brushing of those we label freepers and bigots

[liberation]

64. Relax...

... this didn't happen during Obama's watch.

Funny how now some people can find all sorts of justifications now for stuff which was utterly disconcerting just two years ago.

PS. I loved the disgusting false equivalence at the end. A very "nice" touch.

[Jefferson23]

65. Just a recap from the past:

Massacre in Fallujah: Over 600 Dead, 1,000 Injured, 60,000 Refugees

The U.S. siege of Fallujah continues and reports are emerging of a massacre of Iraqi civilians at the hands of U.S. troops. We go to Iraq to get a report from Free Speech Radio News’ Aaron Glantz who interviews Iraqis fleeing Fallujah as well as a producer with Al-Jazeera television who says he and fellow journalists were targeted by U.S. snipers in the town.

http://www.democracynow.org/2004/4/12/massacre_in_fallujah_over_600_dead

CENTCOM Nominee Led Fallujah Assault, Dropped Charges in Haditha Massacre

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/9/headlines/centcom_nominee_led_fallujah_assault_dropped_charges_in_haditha_massacre

[jwirr]

66. Obviously it is time to bring them home and place them in an institution. nt

[Odin2005]

68. Sick monster. Fire him.

[Doc Martin]

69. Should be discharged immediately

What kind of person has fun killing other human beings? What kind of environment does such a leader create around him?

[wmbrew0206]

104. Uh, that quote is from 2004 and you wanted to discharge him now? Interesting.

[99th_Monkey]

73. If this isn't the proverbial "last straw"

it certainly should be, for this to go viral in the US and wake us all up to demand a speedy end
to this damn tragic "longest war", it's a vampire on our neck taking our blood and treasury.

Oh and ... Gee, I wonder why "they hate US so much"??

[undeterred]

74. Thats probably a healthy attitude for someone whose job

is basically to be a killing machine.

[L0oniX]

76. ...and fools continue to enlist.

[bertman]

79. Wake up, people. The General is trying to educate you. If you've ever

been in a war with people you considered the ENEMY ("the ENEMY" being the evil, immoral, less-than-humans you are fighting--who are trying to KILL YOU just as you are trying to kill them) then you would understand that the General is just speaking the fricking truth. His mistake was he forgot there are always cameras rolling or voice recorders recording.

As many have already pointed out, if you join a combat arm of the military (as opposed to say the Judge Advocate General's staff or the Quartermaster Corps ) you had better be ready, willing, and able to kill the enemy. And you'd damn well better be feeling good about it when you do it; otherwise, you will go fucking crazy.

The big problem comes in when a couple of possibilities arise: inconvenient truth #1) you figure out that the ENEMY isn't the evil, immoral, less-than-human thing you thought he/she was when you started your mission; inconvenient truth #2) you realize that for all the ENEMIES you kill, you're also killing more INNOCENTS who just happen to be in or near the vicinity of the ENEMY; inconvenient truth #3) you finally figure out that YOU are the REAL ENEMY because YOU are invading the other person's homeland and he/she is just trying to kill you as a means of protecting his/her family, way of life, etc. etc.

Being in a "brawl" as the General called it--a euphemism that I assume could have meant any number of things: contact with the enemy; a firefight; a full-bore battle; an ambush; etc.--is a high that little else can come close to matching. When you survive that experience and realize you have prevailed over the ENEMY and you have not lost some of your own comrades-in-arms, then it is definitely fun on a different level.

The other issues associated with this General's commands are a different problem and need to be addressed fully before he is confirmed.

[ThomasQED]

86. I would say that

feeling good about killing someone IS a sign of going crazy.

Whatever you feel about the war, no one should feel good about killing "the enemy." "The enemy" is all a matter of perspective.

[bertman]

97. Killing someone who is considered the enemy because he is trying

to kill you has nothing whatsoever to do with perspective. It's about survival.

We can certainly debate the rightness of the war, but the enemy, when you are in a combat zone, is the person who is trying to kill you, regardless of his motivation.

It's always interesting to me how we put such a supposed premium on the sanctity of human life, yet our government (we the people) and the governments of hundreds of other nations have no compunction whatsoever about killing anyone they consider a threat to their security or their existence. Of course, those acts are always couched in terms of necessity and national security, etc., but in reality it's just the same old shit that goes down in the natural world every day where coyotes kill fawns, foxes kill rabbits, animals kill each other in mortal combat over breeding rights, the list is endless.

There is nothing at all crazy about killing a man who thinks that throwing acid in the faces of young girls who violate his religious standards is acceptable. There are hundreds of other outrageous acts by humans that deserve the ultimate punishment, but that's for another thread.

[wmbrew0206]

103. Very well said bertman. On both posts.

[ThomasQED]

113. I sort of agree with you

And I could have stated my idea better.

I still believe everyone should get a trial. If someone is found guilty of (for example) throwing acid in someone's face, then by all means get this person away from the rest of us. But killing someone who has not had a trial and feeling "good" about it is not a mark of a civilized society.

It's the "feeling good" part that bothers me. If you kill someone out of survival then fair enough, but that person still had family who are not responsible for whatever evil has occurred.

[wmbrew0206]

140. ThomasQED, part of it is the human biological response to stimuli that provokes the fight or flight

choice within humans.

To be able to overcome the flight response and then survive the encounter with all of your fireteam/squad/platoon members is a very big emotional event. With the amount of adrenaline pumped into the body and living through a very primitive but powerful experience leaves you with a feeling of elation. You have survived when an enemy has tried to kill you. I would not describe it as "good" but it is a significant emotional event that is not negative.

[Old Vet]

147. You're wasting your time friend.....

Most on this thread cant possibly comprehend war, Personally the Sickest, Bloodthirsty, Nasty motherfuckers survive. A concept not normal to most but forced on many in uniform. I dont know what was harder for me, Learning to live or learning to forget.

[ThomasQED]

148. OK...

now I think we are talking about 2 different "good" feelings. Surviving something like that must be a very strong emotion - that is what you are talking about.

I'm talking about feeling pleased or proud about killing someone. That's what I think the general was saying, and the "good" feeling I think bertman describes as "fun".

[ShadowLiberal]

81. That's not a good sign that he'd make a good leader

[Hulk]

82. I'm sorry folks....this pretty much says it all.

I was an infantry soldier, drafted, in Vietnam in 1969. I know the ranks are made up of honest men and women with noble causes. I know there are men and women WANTING to make the world a better place and make "our country safe"...whatever the f*ck that is supposed to mean.

But I also know....VERY WELL...that there are thugs and criminals in the ranks who get a hard on for killing, raping and murdering. I saw this in Vietnam..and I know in this "volunteer military" we have now...there are THOUSANDS of men, and maybe even some women, who LUST to kill and butcher. This pig of an officer is one of them. It's what they can do in the name of "country". It's criminal...and it's why we need to shut down the military meat grinder we have going on around the world today.

WE are the problem. THESE kind of thugs are a disgrace to our country and to the military. But we need to weed these sick bastards out and keep them on a tight leash.

F*CK that "support the troops" generic bull shit. There are some of the troops that aren't deserving of ANY respect. This pig is one of them....but just one.

[Crowman1979]

93. Right on!

It's even worse when you have a unit leader who is either a total religious nutjob, has a blood lust like you just mentioned or has a disregard for the safety of those under his/her command.

Case in point, our Ordnance shop OIC wanted us all to live in a giant tent with dry plywood walls and many electrical connections while we were over at Al-Asad air base in Iraq. The damn thing looked like a giant circus tent and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason we had more rocket attacks than usual. Plus several marines in my unit were injured while trying to build this monstrosity. Luckily me and some other Marines spoke up on what a big clusterfuck this idea was and scraped the OIC's pet project.

And that's the thing about the military. Not only do you risk losing your life, you risk losing it on the risk of whether or not the higher-ups are mentally unstable or incompetent.

[undergroundpanther]

90. So..is the military using psychopaths...

to kill psychopaths? If Mattis thinks it's "fun" to kill..he sounds like a psychopath to me. Sad truth is assholes like him exist everywhere,even in Afghanistan.A psychopath gets off on human suffering and death,they do not change. But some in the military they can be 'bribed' with what horrors they enjoy doing,to get rid of bad people apparently. Evil people causing much suffering that most non- psychopaths, or non-traumatized people would be too squeamish to actually put into a grave.To me killing psychopaths is a GOOD thing.1 less psychopath on earth to find a way to harm others.Very unpleasant to have to kill them but sadly it may be necessary to do that,considering psychopaths do not change,and they commit most of the most ugly violence in this world because they think it's "fun".

I just wonder at the stupidity of appointing these "weird" read "high functioning"psychopathic people like Mattis in charge of people trained to kill people. I think it's stupid to trust a psychopath like Mattis,because in the midst of all his "fun" he has no sense of responsibility,as his statements show his true character underneath the veneer of 'professionalism'.Under a psychopaths command the innocents die, and war crimes happen like in Fallujah. Maybe we need someone to command who isn't a psychopath,someone with a conscience and good discernment of character,and enough guts to control how much "fun" the psychopaths on the ground with the non-psychopaths in a war. Since psychopaths have no conscience or ability to care or empathize with others they are a liability.

So they need a commander who does NOT have fun killing,who isn't a lifelong"brawler"to be a conscience for the killers..Maybe the top and mid- level brass in the"chain of command" needs to be purged of psychopathy so the psychopaths among the military don't recklessly kill innocents ,and lie about it,cover it up, or sweep it under a rug,in any war we get dragged into. Be it with lies due to a psychopath president like bush or reacting to a justifiable horrible situation like the German death camps. I would like to see troops in Darfur stopping the rapists.If human rights are the reason we are in these wars our priorities are messed up.


If Mattis was all that concerned over women being abused or religion gone bad .. In Darfur men are using rape as a war weapon. In Certain Countries being gay gets you killed and people on C Street wanted to get African leaders to make being gay illegal and kill gays,and those who hide gays too. That gay killing legislation was cooked up here,by"christian terrorists over here.That's another example of religion gone evil and that terror is right here in the USA.


Why isn't our military routing out the C Street fundamentalist terrorists HERE??They are every bit as radical and controlling and evil as the psychopaths in the Taliban. What about stopping the RAPE in our own military,ending hazing, and repealing DADT? Those are human rights issues too. Serious human rights abuses that affect OUR military 's credibility as being ethical too. What about helping countries forcing children into sex slavery by targeting the people profiting from exploiting kids? Or how about using our military to end human trafficking and slavery that still exists even in the ? How come we let certain massive abuses against innocents of humanity go unpunished? Does the us military only go after people that do not want capitalism and rampant consumerism as an economic and social system, or people that refuse to"modernize"?

There are terrible crimes happening,genocides,mass rape,slavery,and Some Afghani men ARE psychopaths yes and the Taliban are a bunch of asshole pig fuckers for the most part,but I think when there are entire nations over run with psychopaths,they need help NOW. Considering that,why are we in Afghanistan for again? Fun? War Porn for perverted psychopaths higher up on that corrupted "chain of command". Why are we over THERE???

[Hulk]

111. Always has had that element...ALWAYS!!

And we wonder why some come home, hit the streets, and end up involved in malicious murder/rape/aggressive behavior?

Some of these military peeps are nothing more than criminal elements with "an outlet" for their behavior.

This is NOT saying a majority...or a good portion...but simply THEY EXIST...and always have. To deny it is absolute lunacy. Ask any vet. They can all tell you the same.

[defendandprotect]

91. JFK finally understood that the Joint Chiefs were insane . . .

Standing armies produce standing killers --

We need to end this volunteer army -- even having one on the shelf moves us to war --

[undergroundpanther]

102. They are not insane

Psychopathy is not a mental illness. it's a personality type. Stop confusing psychopathy with mental illness/injuries..

A mental illness or injury can be helped with therapy and/or meds.

Psychopathic personality is who the joint chiefs ARE,and because it is who they ARE,they do not change, or see anything wrong with themselves, because a component of psychopathy is they think themselves superior to us, being unburdened by a conscience,they'll seek power just to get away with abusing power..And by having no anxiety over the impacts their decisions have on others they are reckless, and since psychopaths cannot be traumatized by abuse ,and have any fear of punishment..The only places for psychopath people like the joint chiefs and others like them in places of power or not,are high security prisons or a grave.

I prefer a grave because from a grave they cannot escape or influence/abuse anyone anymore.In a grave they cannot have more kids and pass on the genetic components of psychopathy.In a grave they cannot abuse the mentally ill that are housed in prisons unjustly now.And Isolation for 23 hours a day is torture.Torture is wrong,execution if carried out quickly and done responsibly from the arrests to the courts to the death chamber is not torture for a psychopath,the psychopath is angry he got caught and he won't be having any more "fun".

[defendandprotect]

127. Medical dictionary disagrees: "Psychopath = a mentally ill or unstable individual" --

Medical Dictionary


psy·cho·path definition
Pronunciation: /ˈsī-kə-ˌpath/
Function: n
: a mentally ill or unstable individual
especially : one having an antisocial personality





----------

Psychopathy is not a mental illness. it's a personality type. Stop confusing psychopathy with mental illness/injuries..

A mental illness or injury can be helped with therapy and/or meds.

Psychopathic personality is who the joint chiefs ARE,and because it is who they ARE,they do not change, or see anything wrong with themselves, because a component of psychopathy is they think themselves superior to us, being unburdened by a conscience,they'll seek power just to get away with abusing power..And by having no anxiety over the impacts their decisions have on others they are reckless, and since psychopaths cannot be traumatized by abuse ,and have any fear of punishment..The only places for psychopath people like the joint chiefs and others like them in places of power or not,are high security prisons or a grave.

I prefer a grave because from a grave they cannot escape or influence/abuse anyone anymore.In a grave they cannot have more kids and pass on the genetic components of psychopathy.In a grave they cannot abuse the mentally ill that are housed in prisons unjustly now.And Isolation for 23 hours a day is torture.Torture is wrong,execution if carried out quickly and done responsibly from the arrests to the courts to the death chamber is not torture for a psychopath,the psychopath is angry he got caught and he won't be having any more "fun".

[Flatulo]

92. Fancy that!. A Marine general wants to kill Taliban fighters.

I would have never expected this in a million years.

[Crowman1979]

95. Let me get this straight, he's a general who likes brawling?

Normally they kick-out or never promote enlisted personel who are involved with or start a brawl. But since he's a general, I guess he can do any damn thing he pleases.:eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

105. This is why I think

the top and mid level military chain of command needs to be purged of psychopaths.All the way up and down.

Psychopaths as adults in hierarchies are still like school bullies in school.They will protect and promote themselves and hoodwink non- psychopaths into thinking they are"good people".

Look at a school bully,how they kiss ass to cover their own ass after they beat up a target,blaming the victim,and charming the principal into thinking he's really a good boy,being a 'sports star' too valuable to expel,and imagine that same personality as an adult.

There you have WHY Mattis should never have been promoted past private.

[kimmylavin]

98. So I assume HIS manhood is intact?

Coming as it does from a feeling of cultural superiority, and at the muzzle of a gun?
Hearts and minds indeed...

[undergroundpanther]

106. Maybe

taking down Mattis's testosterone levels would make him less aggressive less of a brawler?
Some guys have a really sick understanding of what manhood is. Those men with these warped ideas about manhood turn having a dick into an entitlement/excuse/weapon.Mattis is a bully a psychopath, his 'manhood' is just as warped as the man he complained about beating his wife for 5 years for not wearing a veil..I wonder would he shoot the woman too during his killing glee because he does not care,really and she is expendable as collateral damage anyway? Having a penis gives no person any special rights or a weapon,or any entitlements. Some men think it does and they are part of the problem in the warped backwards mentality in this country.Patriarchy sucks,any kind of archy sucks.

[IcyPeas]

107. collateral damage? neutralize the enemy? eliminate assets?

soldiers are trained in using these phrases.

snip:

"New words for "kill" were especially prolific: "waste, "blow away," "smoke," "eliminate assets" were all attempts to think of battlefields as less disturbing than they really are. Here is a brief history of euphemisms for "kill" that have invaded the general language from military jargon and the underground argot." ("argot" - I had to look that up it means: the special vocabulary and idiom of a particular profession or social group)

from:
http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/Linguistic-Collateral-Damage.html

they forget that these are "real people" that they are killing.

[undergroundpanther]

108. I agree with you

peas, the phrases are meant to dehumanize and it serves the same function of any special language to make the truth obscure.

[MisterP]

125. duplicate

[MisterP]

126. killing is rendered either sterilized and possibly regrettable, or deeply, viscerally satisfying

hence the near-orgasms on many gun boards when they're fantasizing about shooting rapists or whatever

[Joe Chi Minh]

110. Some time ago, I posted to the Veterans' folder that I had just read a marvellous book,

written by a senior NCO in the American army fighting in Europe during WWII, who was eventually captured and, after a long, nightmare kind of cattle-truck, train journey, without food or water, ended up in a prison camp, until released by the Allies at the war's end.

One of his subordinates, a junior NCO, constantly annoyed him with his shallow, gung-ho attitude and on at least one occasion, lack of chivalry/humanity, for example, firing on an enemy who was trying, at the risk of his own life to rescue an injured comrade. That was the last straw for him, and he got him moved to another outfit, on the grounds of his being immature. He didn't want him in his squad. He heard later that he was killed by the enemy, and he, himself, carried injuries he'd sustained for the rest of his life.

Back in civilian life, the company he worked for eventually made him a director. It was a wonderful book about a wonderful man, any country would have been proud to have represent them anywhere. It sounds like "the purity of arms" is not a concept the General is overly familiar with.

We all like tales of derring-do, but there was something about this man's war and the moral code he relied on that makes adventures we would normally admire, such as, for example, the young journalist, Winston Churchill's escape from captivity by the Boers in South Africa, seem kind of superficial and one dimensional. I just wish I could remember the man's name or the title of the book.

[democrank]

117. Sick

[costahawk1987]

119. I'm clueless on this one...

When the Prez ran for that thankless job, I agreed that the focus needed shifted to Afghanistan. But with all the bastards bumping their gums, civilian casualties and everything else, it makes it tough to "stay the course." I'd feel like I was letting the president down if I changed my mind on this one--which sounds way weak when innocents die needlessly. But if satellites can catch dudes picking their noses on park benches, they ought to be able to find Bin Laden after ten years of looking for that son of a three-fisted whore.

[lunasun]

129. and if they take Bin Laden out in the street &shoot him in the head are all the wars over then ???

[IndianaGreen]

154. I assure you that Obama will continue to wage all 75 wars he is currently involved in

We need an Emmanuel Goldstein to maintain a permanent state of war.

[Soylent Brice]

131. >>> AHEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMbo6Mu43O0

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for the daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere

Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I wanna drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow

And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you, I find it hard to take
When people run in circles its a very, very
Mad world, mad world

Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy birthday, happy birthday
And I feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen

Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me, what's my lesson?
Look right through me, look right through me

And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you, I find it hard to take
When people run in circles its a very, very
Mad world, mad world, enlarging your world
Mad world

[pettypace]

136. The most important aspect of his remarks

Since when was the mission to eliminate the social inequalities that exist in Afghanistan?

The goal was to route out terrorism that could potentially create casualties in the U.S. homeland.



If the general desires to route out misogyny, he had better turn his cannon towards the Kingdom of Arabia, where women suffer equally or even worse archaic treatment.

[Rex]

144. He is the marine commander from Avatar.

Kill kill kill, don't ask question who we are killing, kill kill kill. At least it is fun...oh wait...:puke:

[polly7]

155. Wow .......... he's tough. nt.

[woo me with science]

163. Obviously we need to bring in Dr. Phil

so our military can learn to speak more kindly and sensitively about the killng they EXIST TO CARRY OUT.

Sheesh.

[Lorien]

166. Anone who thinks that it's "fun" to kill should not be in the military. nt

[woo me with science]

168. Yes, they should be cringing and apologizing every minute.

They should shed tears of regret when they speak of these events.

Killing is the PURPOSE of his job. You would have him carry out the slaughter but demand PC sensitivity when talking about it publicly. How hypocritical is that? You are also conveniently ignoring the context of what he said. He did not reference all people or even all Muslims. He referenced certain people who brutalize women. Who the hell are you to dictate what frame of mind he has to adopt in order to carry out what he must carry out?

Sheesh again. If this is what you have to get outraged about, you are seriously deluded as to what war is really about.

[Imagevision]

165. I pity the poor woman married to this schmuck...

[KillCapitalism]

167. Yeah, the Soviets thought so too.

For a while at least until they discovered "Oh noes, we're like broke 'n stuff m'kay."

[citizen snips]

169. Well that is what we are there for to kill terrorists.

might as well have fun doing it.