A Disturbing Trend in the Jobless "Recovery"..

[Gothic Sponge]

Offshore Outsourcing
Will Increase, Poll Finds

By KEN BROWN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
March 26, 2004; Page B3

Corporate executives in the U.S. expect to increase the amount of work they outsource to offshore locations despite a growing political backlash, according to a survey of more than 180 companies to be released today.

According to the survey, 86% of the companies polled expect to send more technology jobs overseas in the next 12 months, compared with 32% two years ago. Executives are moving more slowly, however: The survey, conducted by Chicago consulting firm DiamondCluster International Inc., said 63% of executives say they are moving incrementally instead of rapidly, compared with 30% who were taking a cautious approach two years ago.

http://users1.wsj.com/WebIntegration/WebIntegrationServlet?call=L_L&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2F0%2C%2CSB108025866449965891%2C00.html%3Fmod%3Dhome_whats_news_us

[Kadie]

1. This is really scary.

My husband is in the tech field, and over the past few years he has had to wear more hats AND take a pay cut. While some jobs keep going over seas, the ones still needed here are also paying the price to "keep costs down". At least the CEO's keep making more money, so we don't need to worry about them.

[RoundRockD]

10. My husband is in the same position...

Every week it seems like he takes on a new responsibility and works later and later. I also have a friend in the real estate business who says foreclosures are going up. Some economy.

[calimary]

38. Hey RoundRockD and Kadie, Welcome to BOTH OF YOU!

So many new people here I haven't even had time to welcome them all. Glad you're here. I am sorry about your circumstances. We've been doing everything we can, every doggone day, to get it turned around. Seems more and more people are getting interested in helping us...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/comment/story/0,14259,117865...
The Bush administration fears voters will believe Richard Clarke's allegations, writes Philip James

Friday March 26, 2004

The swiftness and ferocity of the Bush White House's attack on Richard Clarke tells you two things: his story may be largely true, and the Bush administration is terrified that the American people will believe it.
The central allegation - that Mr Bush was so obsessed with going after Saddam Hussein that he openly challenged his counter-terrorism adviser to find a link between September 11 and Iraq the day after the attacks took place - is serious.

It threatens the fundamental platform of the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign: that you are safer with them than you are with the Democrats.

The White House did not let a single news cycle go by before questioning that the alleged encounter between the president and Clarke had ever taken place, assigning dark motives to a man who has served four presidents, three of them Republicans.

But you don't have to be Bob Woodward to check Clarke's story out. There were other witnesses to this meeting, one of whom spoke to me.

"The conversation absolutely took place. I was there, but you can't name me," the witness said. "I was one of several people present. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that the president had Iraq on his mind, first and foremost."

This former national security council official was too terrified to go on the record - he knows how vengeful this administration can be.

<more>

Found that, courtesy another DUer named JoFerret.

Note my sig line. Too late today (Friday) to do much, considering east coast time, but FIRST THING MONDAY MORNING, you know what to do... And it's FREE!

[neverforget]

2. Outsourcing will be used as an excuse to drive wages down under

the guise of "competiveness". :puke:

[Gothic Sponge]

3. I don't like to say this.......

Call me a radical, but i think it's almost time for a new revolution!

[CheshireCat]

6. Radical!

I happen to agree with you but don't hold your breath. Most people do not understand that our country is based on the right to revolution if that's what it takes to hold on to our democracy (or what's left of it)

[Just Me]

32. Radical revolutions are getting smarter, more creative and effective,

and involve no violence whatsoever. After all, we have some fabulous recent examples of non-violent revolutionaries (i.e. King, Ghandi et al.), only now,...we are a stronger force with a unified knowledgeable base that can do even greater things.

[reprobate]

34. Quiet, GS. You'll give away our plans.

[SquireJons]

44. Quotable Thomas Jefferson

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

and

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I never liked that last quote, but he may be right.

However, I don't think a revolution will happen in the United States. The forces of repression are just too strong. But a war - a Big War may be in the offing.

Seems to me that we somehow went back in time with the stolen election of 2000. We have been living through 3 years of Robber Baron type government, just like at the end of the 19th century. And I fear the results will be the same too. The Great War - the 'war to end all wars' was a direct result of the same type of governmental mind set and arrogance of the aristocratic class that permeates our country right now. It took a national tragedy to shake us free of it then, and probably will again. I promise you one thing, I will do everything in my power to make sure it does not consume my son.

[alfredo]

41. Remember they tried to abolish the minimum wage laws.

That didn't go very far, but you know that a lame duck Rep president will try it again.

[orwell]

4. Business as Usual

Get used to it. Even if Kerry is elected this trend will continue, albeit at a slower pace.

The attraction of cheap labor, by far the largest cost of most businesses, is too tempting to walk away from, no matter the political repercussions. This is a way to pad profits and keep the stock price rising, which is, after all, state religion.

O

[aquart]

11. Take a look at his new tax plan.

Currently we make it profitable to go offshore. Removing the profit helps wonderfully.

Also, if governors like the lady yesterday will simply insist that contracts from government be executed onshore...

LOTS of ways.

Publishing executive compensation next to lists of wages of jobs offshored for each corporation would probably also have an effect. It isn't pretty to know the CEO is offshoring to India to put your wages in his pocket. That doesn't do much for stockholders or competitiveness, now does it?

[truthseeker1]

15. Do you know if any such list exists?

CEO's compensation alongside the number of jobs each company is outsourcing.

I would love to put that on my website.

[Hekate]

22. Lou Dobbs Money Line on CNN

If you don't already, you should watch this guy's program some time. One of the things he's made his mission is to track "The Outsourcing of America" as a regular segment of his program. He refers to a list of outsourcing corporations on his part of the CNN website, so check there first.

Second place to check would be public records -- don't corporations that publically trade stock also publish CEO compensation packages in their quarterly or annual reports? They certainly get reported in newspapers.

It'd be a bit of a research project, but the results would be fascinating, edifying, and disgusting. If someone has already put it together, maybe one of our DUers can direct you.

Hekate

[truthseeker1]

29. Yep, got Lou's list posted on my website already

and I used to Tivo his program on season pass, but just recently deleted it. I was at first really stoked to see him focusing so much on outsourcing, but recently dropped all my season passes for mainstream shows (except Hardball) and have switched over to the BBC and the International News channel. (This was partly because I was running out of room on the TiVo and had to give something up so bye bye Lou and Crossfire!)

[Hekate]

23. Lou Dobbs Money Line on CNN

If you don't already, you should watch this guy's program some time. One of the things he's made his mission is to track "The Outsourcing of America" as a regular segment of his program. He refers to a list of outsourcing corporations on his part of the CNN website, so check there first.

Second place to check would be public records -- don't corporations that publically trade stock also publish CEO compensation packages in their quarterly or annual reports? They certainly get reported in newspapers.

It'd be a bit of a research project, but the results would be fascinating, edifying, and disgusting. If someone has already put it together, maybe one of our DUers can direct you.

Hekate

[orwell]

27. Its the Productivity

I think the lack of job creation is due to a few factors, the most important being the large productivity gains due to technology investment, especially in the telecommunications sector. A secondary factor is that GDP growth has been overestimated due to some suppression of the inflation statistics. In other words, job growth is not as robust as many expect because GDP growth is not as robust as the government has reported.

The bottom line is, business can produce more with fewer workers. Its just that simple. Meaningful job growth will be tied to large growth in worldwide economies. Such growth will be hampered by structural realities such as US Internal Deficits and External Trade Deficits. I don't see how this will change in the near future.

As far as outsourcing, there is no doubt that jobs are being shipped overseas. My point is that the total number of net job loss is far less than most believe. If it can be as an issue to get Bush out of office, I have no problem with it. My point is that this outsourcing trend going to inevitably grow, no matter who is in office.

O

[Skittles]

20. speaking of religion

I'm sure these folks exploiting cheap labor are in church every Sunday.

[UpInArms]

5. according to Greg Mankiw, this great news

- exporting jobs is good for our economy :shakesheadindisgust:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/WorldNewsTonight/outsourcing_firestorm_040213-1.html

Feb. 13 — On Thursday — the day before the U.S. Commerce Department reported a record $489.4 billion trade deficit for 2003 — travelocity.com, the internet travel company, announced it was "outsourcing" 300 call-center jobs from Texas and Virginia to India.

Such news comes on the heels of the political firestorm
set off earlier this week by President Bush's chief economic adviser, Greg Mankiw, who said "outsourcing" — sending white-collar service jobs abroad where labor is cheaper — was a good thing.

"It's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run," said Mankiw chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisers. Outsourcing, Mankiw said, was part of a larger picture that would eventually be good for the American economy, "just a new way of doing international trade."

...more...

speechless - I am simply speechless.

[Zero Gravitas]

16. White House Council of Economic Advisers.

I'm sure economic advice could be dispensed more cheaply & efficiently by people in India than by some over-paid parasite like Mankiw.

[mbperrin]

7. Change the tax code and allow companies to deduct 100% of the cost

of employees working in this country and 10% of the cost of those working elsewhere.

It'll help.

[Merlin]

12. Good idea. And while they're at it...

the can prohibit companies from deducting any executive compensation exceeding 7 times the average compensation of their own employees.

[mbperrin]

17. See, that's another good idea!

nt

[ewagner]

18. That's a great idea! n/t

[Zero Gravitas]

19. and...

the average compensation should be calculated based on ALL employees and contractors including those in India etc.

[mbperrin]

21. Absolutely right!

See, there's plenty of ideas that these unimaginative pricks in office haven't considered!

[prolesunited]

28. How DARE you suggest such a thing!?!?

It is absolutely appalling that these executive walk away with millions each year while their employees don't have insurance and must rely on food stamps.

Bottom line is that the middle class is getting totally reamed. But then again, if they get their way, there no longer will be a middle class. You're either rich or poor, just like the "good old days" when the robber barons ruled the U.S., only now their vision has gone global.

[Just Me]

33. YES!!!! That would place reins on destructive greed and,...

,...put more responsibility (sacrifice for the privilege of being a "person" entitled to the protection of laws) upon corporations. After all, they are damned lucky to benefit from being an associate with our pro-corporatism government!!!! A price must be paid for that good fortune!!! They must sacrifice for such benefits IF they want to retain their freedom and liberty!!!!

[ZR2]

26. And the American public can start buying items

that are only 100% made in the USA

[calimary]

40. NO, they should be able to deduct 0% of the cost of those working

elsewhere.

AND we should close the tax loopholes that allow corporations to hide from their tax obligations to this country by setting up a post office box in Bermuda or the Cayman Islands or some such place. THAT has got to go!

[Yavin4]

8. Outsourcing Is About The Commoditization of All Labor Prices

Outsourcing, as well as guest worker visa programs, is more about the commoditization of labor prices than it is about free trade and immigration. Soon, all labor will be priced the same no matter what the skill level is.

The only way to stop it is to regulate global corporations on a global level. What Kerry can do is re-open trade agreements and re-negotiate them so that labor can be protected. Failing to protect labor wages will result in a worldwide deflation wave that could send the world's economy into a global depression.

Outsourcing is not inevitable and it can be stopped.

[aquart]

13. Global level , my ass.

That's a nice very distant goal. Let's take care of what we can legislate here at home, first.

[trogdor]

24. When a doctor and a ditch digger make the same money...

...we're in deep shit. Back in the days, it was known as Soviet-style Communism. When that day comes (and it appears to be coming soon), there will no longer be an incentive for anybody to go to university for anything. Can you imagine the impact all of this offshoring nonsense is having on technical colleges? IT deans must be screaming bloody murder right about now, or at least they should.

[Yavin4]

25. Millions of Americans Will Default on Their Student Loans

The debt burden carried by milions of American college grads is getting larger and larger each and every year, and globalization is driving down wages. The end result will be millions of people defaulting on their student loans.

[shade]

31. IT Deans....

You're right, they ARE screaming bloody murder.

U.S. students shun computer sciences

Depending on who you talk to, enrollment in technical fields is down 20-30% or more... and I can't say I blame the students at all, since big corps have basically spent the last two or three years telling us "No, you're too expensive, we don't need you anymore."

I work in IT and if I were doing it all over, knowing what I do now, I wouldn't touch this field with a ten foot pole, nor would I advise anyone else to do so. Whenever I see our co-ops at work, I always want to go over and tell them to get out now while they still can. And the sad thing is, I'm only 25... it's not like I've had a long career in IT and at this point I'm not sure I'm going to.

What really pisses me off is that my fall-back specialty, technical writing, is also getting sent overseas in quantity... when it's even bothered with anymore. Companies have apparently decided that documentation is overrated... why should they care if you find that the documentation is crap once they've already got your money?

:argh: :argh: :argh:

[Just Me]

35. I agree, in part. I would call it commodization of human beings.

And when I say that, I do not just mean wages but also all laws created to protect people via hours/benefits/conditions, environment, consumer safety,...you know, the basic exploitations that our own people had to fight so hard to end not so very long ago.

[donsu]

9. I've been thinking they have advised the corps to leave the country

before Congress can get any bills up and passed to keep them here or at least honest.

[progressivebydesign]

14. The ONLY jobs showing any growth in our County are..

Waitress. Retail Clerk. Nurse. Cashier. Diesel Mechanics. That's it... and we're talking less than a hundred new hires a year. All other jobs show a growth rate of under 10 jobs for the year, or a loss. The upper tier of the corporate structure, the ones that make the real money, are destroying our country for the benefits of a handful of extremely rich stockholders and CEOs. There was actually a time when mission statements meant something to a company... now, most should simply read: MAKE LOTS OF MONEY FOR THE TOP INVESTORS. Period.

[tlcandie]

30. Here's some figures for you straight from Business Week 3/22/04

Article titled, "The Future of WORK" by Peter Coy.

Routine work will wither away:

Sewing machine operators $23k average pay in 2002; projected employment change, 2002-2012 = -99,000

Word processors $28k avg. 2002 annual pay; projected employment change, 2002-2012 = -93,000

Telephone operators $29k; projected -28k employment change

Travel agents $28k; projected -16k employment change

Title examiners $37k; -1k employment change

COMPLEX JOBS WILL MULTIPLY

College educators $59k; employment change +600k

Managers $84k; employment change +380k

Software engineers $74k; change +179k

Management consultants $70k; change 176k

Artists & Designers $46k; change +125k

Several GREAT articles listed in this issue of Business Week addressing jobs and/or outsourcing.

EDIT: No link quoted magazine sitting in front of me.

[mulethree]

39. hehe - lifespans?

Yes I see college "educators" multiplying since the "complex" jobs will mean you will need 30 years of schooling instead of 16 when you consider the constant continuing education required. I expect more "productivity improvements", but possibly they are already factored into that +600K. Remember something called a "professor"? typically having a doctorate degree to earn that lovely $59K. At my university the "college educators" were typically graduate students rather than professors though.

Most clear on your list are the Software engineer and the Management consultant whose college educations are both obsolete within 8 years of graduation. These aren't 40 hour a week jobs but 60+ and add a good 10 hours a week of studying on top of that. Workaholics only need apply.

Look at the mergers going on and the 1990's "flattening" in corporate heirarchies, they love eliminating "redundant" management positions. There are a ton of highly qualified "surplus" managers out there, I think they are re-naming what used to be called "supervisors" to be called managers. When the corner grocery turns into a 7-11, two owners are replaced with 4 "managers" and the store has 4 "managers" and 8 "other employees"

Same with software engineers, used to be a really creative job for really smart people. Nowadays it's usually drudge work assembling and testing rather than designing and engineering. Prime for offshoring, I'm quite sceptical that we will see any positive growth in this domestically.

[daleo]

43. Business Week may not be the most objective source for this

Business magazines often seem pretty cheerleaderish on this sort of subject, at least to me. And predicting the future job market is notoriously difficult, at the best of times.

[mulethree]

36. We the Stockholders

Includes everyone with a 401K, stock portfolio, pension fund or insurance.

The "top investors" you are talking about get to invest in various "private" investments and partnerships that most investors couldn't get into if they tried. e.g. Hedge fund vs Mutual fund, Venture Capital, Angel investors.

[sophie996]

37. remember Henry Ford?

Wasn't he the guy who paid his auto workers the then-outrageously high sum of $5 a day, so they'd have enough money to buy the cars they built?
I must be missing some crucial logic in this outsourcing scam because I keep wondering who's going to be able to buy stuff if the U.S. middle class is all jobless. How many Nikes can you afford on Asian factory wages? :crazy:

[alfredo]

42. Could they be using foreign hires to pad the job figures so

bush can say, I created X amount of jobs. Would anyone even think of asking him, "Which countries"?