Taliban execute Afghan woman in public, police say

[maddezmom]

Source: Reuters

HERAT, Afghanistan — Taliban insurgents publicly executed an Afghan woman for alleged adultery, a police official said Monday, in a reminder to the era when the militant group ruled Afghanistan.

The 48-year-old widow was given dozens of lashes before being shot dead on Sunday in the remote Qades district, held by the militants in northwestern Badghis province, said Abdul Jabar who serves as a senior officer in the province.

"It happened before the public ... despite that no one has complained, the government will take its own measures about the incident," Jabar told Reuters by phone from Badghis.

The unidentified man who had the alleged affair with the woman had escaped, he said.

When in power from 1996 until 2001, the radical Taliban staged public stonings or lashings of those found to have sex outside marriage.


Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38620400/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

[aquart]

1. Gotta love the way Afghan men stand up for their women.

Let's leave.

[Chulanowa]

4. Gotta love the way Americans stand up for women, period

Is this your angle, Aquart? You've already called for Arab women to be sterilized. Should we now abandon Afghan women to murder? let me guess, they're Muslims, so the less, the better, right?

[maxsolomon]

12. we eventually WILL 'abandon' them

sooner or later - we are not willing to fight on this level of brutality, and we cannot make them change their culture - in fact our occupation makes their religious 'justice' more merciless, in order to eliminate any resistance and collaboration.

we cannot force medieval minds into our enlightened world. we can withdraw and quarantine as best as possible.

[Bragi]

62. I totally agree

Withdrawal and quarantine would be best, along with supporting an exodus of refugees. It would even cost less than the war.

Not that this will happen, of course.

[saigon68]

71. a police official said Monday

Nice job of fighting crime

[demigoddess]

81. you are right our 'occupation' makes them more likely to stick

to their old ways. Get out and leave them to themselves and eventually the people will rebel and set up their own, freer system. or as i say it 'you cannot give people democracy they have to win it for themselves'. and that goes for this kind of mess too.

[superconnected]

64. Our troops aren't there "saving" women so don't even start that crap.

Time to leave Afghanistan.

[ck4829]

2. Interesting that the man always finds a way to escape

[Turbineguy]

3. Those Taliban,

are just a fun loving bunch.

We are about as successful over there as we are with our war on drugs.

[saigon68]

5. Its a lot more expensive though

The WOD employs several million paper shufflers

The War on Islam is a boon to US corporations and their bottom line

[Loki]

6. Does anyone remember RAWA?

Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan who were working during the Taliban's initial occupation of that country and courageously fought for women even at the risk of exposure, persecution and death. Same as it ever was, and we have accomplished what?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. I forwarded a few messages from them. Before 9/11.

But of course, nobody of importance in the West gave an airborne intercourse.

[LostinVA]

7. They still DO rule Afghanistan

They always have, except for a very brief time after the invasion.

[Turborama]

10. No, the Taliban have not always ruled Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

[Bragi]

60. Not quite so

The Taliban are a recent development, but religious medevelists, drug barons and tribal war lords have governed this place for a long, long time (like the past 200 years or so.) That's what makes it hopelessly impoverished and backward.

This isn't going to change anytime soon, if ever. And it sure won't change because Americans stupidly think they can drive change at gunpoint.

If Americans and others truly cared about Afghans, they would find a way of supporting an exodus of people from that dismal and dreadful place (no doubt at far less cost than the the invasion and unending occupation of that country.)

[burnsei sensei]

8. Didn't Mohammed have an affair

with a widow?

[Lance_Boyle]

13. How can you have an affair with someone whose husband is dead?

Unless you mean the Prophet himself was guilty of cheating on his spousES, which is equally absurd...

[felix_numinous]

9. So sad

and our being there doesn't stop the Taliban. Were they not artificially created in the first place?

Now it looks like the RW corporate/MIC seems to be 'artificially creating' dissent here at home too by enabling fundamentalist racists. I would love to be wrong about this.

By allowing our public schools to degrade, not teaching social studies anymore, the vacuum will be filled by religious programming. Too many people are already being programmed, under the cloak of freedom of religion, to set out to dismantle law as we know it and replace it with biblical law.

I have hope that many kids come out of these religious environments unscathed, but many others are indoctrinated. It is imperative to push for social studies, history and the arts in schools again, as well as math and science.

Before going overseas, we need to defeat extremism here at home. Or we will see more violence, from the fundamentalist ranks in the military raping and torturing, police ethnic and other brutalities, and more and more incidences of violence against gays.

It can happen here.

[HillbillyBob]

66. You're not wrong.

seen too much of it myself.

[JCMach1]

14. Taliban flog, execute pregnant Afghan woman in public

Source: Gulf News

The Taliban publicly flogged and then executed a pregnant Afghan widow by firing three shots into her head for alleged adultery, police said on Monday.

Bibi Sanubar, 48, was kept in captivity for three days before she was shot dead in a public trial on Sunday by a local Taliban commander in the Qadis district of the rural western province Badghis.

The Taliban accused Sanubar of having an "illicit affair" that left her pregnant. She was first punished with 200 lashes in public, deputy provincial police chief Ghulam Mohammad Sayeedi said.

The widow was given dozens of lashes before being shot dead on Sunday in the remote Qades district, held by the militants in northwestern Badghis province, said Abdul Jabar who serves as a senior officer in the province.
"It happened before the public...despite that no one has complained, the government will take its own measures about the incident," Jabar told Reuters by phone from Badghis.

The unidentified man who had the alleged affair with the woman had escaped, he said...

Read more: http://gulfnews.com/news/world/afghanistan/taliban-flog-execute-pregnant-afghan-woman-in-public-1.665852

---

:(

[aquart]

15. I just don't like those men.

[Ken Burch]

22. Nobody does, aquart.

And some of us remember knowing how stupid a choice it was when Reagan and Bush gave them military assistance.

None of this would have happened if we hadn't insisted on overthrowing the pre-Taliban Afghan government.

And, given that this has happened with our troop strength being escalated, it makes little case for MORE escalation, since it happened anyway.

[JCMach1]

23. Yep, the 'Moral Equivalent' of our founding fathers

:puke:

NOT

[11cents]

25. You forgot Carter

St. Jimmy Carter began military assistance to the Mujahideen's insurgency against the Soviet-backed government. The Mujahideen weren't the same as the Taliban, BTW; the latter didn't exist as a significant force until the 90s.

[Ken Burch]

26. Well, that was a mistake, too.

We should just always have stayed the hell out of Afghanistan. You'd think we would have remembered what happened to the British, let alone the Soviets.

[Phil The Cat]

31. THEIR Country - THEIR Culture

OK, so flogging and executing a woman for the supposed crime of adultery is quite upsetting! But we need to quit trying to impose our values on people we are enslaving!

It's THEIR country, we need to quit meddling! Even if their philosophy and way of life is contrary to the point of infuriating to our values!

[Ken Burch]

33. The worst thing is, any effort on our part to change values in that society

that we might find objectionable could ONLY have the effect of entrenching those values-because to give them up in the face of Western demands then looks like a cave-in to Anglo-American-European imperialism.

We can only hope that the Afghan people themselves will choose to change those things(although we could provide sanctuary to the victims or potential victims of oppressive practices). It's up to those people themselves, because that's the only way any movement for change can take root and succeed.

[pitohui]

34. we would never have civil rights in the usa if efforts to change society are useless

shades of old time older people in the south ranting about "outside agitators" and others, pretending to be more "rational" explaining how if you participated in the civil rights movement, you were just entrenching the opposition and giving them more to push back against

the fact is, evil people who think "god says so" will never change voluntarily, out of the goodness of their hearts, they do need to be called on it, and they do need to be opposed, and saying that opposing evil only entrenches evil is just not a valid argument in my view

a sick old widow woman (too old in a rural community to even BE of child-bearing years, she almost certainly had a uterine fibroid that caused her stomach to look pregnant) doesn't have the opportunity to change herself, change society, or even much chance to flee for her life when the idiots are at the door ready to burn a witch...

offering sanctuary to any few remaining middle class people who could figure out how to avail themselves of it isn't going to help an old woman like that

the taliban has to go, they are ignorant, and they are the kind of ignorant that kills

"we can only hope"....yeah, yeah, yeah, we can just throw up our hands and say "who cares, it's just an old widow woman" -- doing nothing is still doing nothing and "we can only hope" definitely falls into the doing nothing category

the taliban need to be crushed relentlessly and removed from any type of political power, they are evil, period

just as the KKK needed to be crushed and removed from any type of political power, period

you can't just sit wishing and hoping, well, you can, but it's hypocritical

sometimes people have to come from outside, where they have perspective and point out, you know what? THIS SHIT IS JUST PLAIN WRONG

[Ken Burch]

47. Not a valid argument at all

You can't compare our war in that country with the Civil Rights movement.

To have a comparable situation, you'd have had to have, say, Fidel Castro sending troops into Mississippi. Would THAT have helped anything?

It's not possible to WIN in Afghanistan, and social change there can't be achieved through American intervention. If it could be, the Taliban would have collapsed years ago and no Afghan woman would wear the burka.

[Chulanowa]

36. I'm sorry, Ken, that's bullshit

We can't go into a country, fuck it up for thirty years solid, and then, at the end go "Sorry guys, we're not going to help fix it; that's what your bootstraps are for! Later!"

It's simply unconscionable.

[Ken Burch]

46. Fine...help FIX it...

But not with troops. WE can't fix ANYTHING in that country through war.

And we can't fix anything there by giving them orders on what they should do.

If no one outside army has ever achieved military victory in Afghanistan, none ever can.

[Turborama]

86. There are more than 14,000 reconstruction projects under way in Afghanistan

A bit out of date but unfortunately there's not a lot of info being given out about the reconstruction efforts, for some strange reason...


Reconstruction in Afghanistan

After more than three decades of conflict, the reconstruction process of Afghanistan has begun, though it continues to be hampered by continuing conflict. There are more than 14,000 reconstruction projects under way in Afghanistan, such as the Kajaki Dam.<42> Many of these projects are being supervised by the Provincial Reconstruction Teams. The World Bank contribution is the multilateral Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund (ARTF), which was set up in May 2002. It is financed by 24 international donor countries and has spent more than $1.37 billion as of 2007.<43>

Approximately 30 billion US dollars have been provided by the international community for the reconstruction of Afghanistan, most of it from the United States. In 2002, the world community allocated $4 billion at the Tokyo conference followed by another $4 billion in 2004. In February 2006, $10.5 billion were committed for Afghanistan at the London Conference<44> and $11 billion from the United States in early 2007. One major development goal is the completion of the ring road - a series of highways linking the major cities of Afghanistan.<45><46>

India is spending $1.2 billion in health-care, food and infrastructure aid to Afghanistan, its largest foreign assistance program. In January 2009, India completed the Zaranj-Delaram highway near the Iranian border. In May 2009, an Indian-made power transmission line brought 24-hour electricity to Kabul, the capital. Besides repairing disintegrated roads and constructing highways, India is building the country's new parliament building. It is running medical missions and training Afghan police officers, diplomats and civil servants.<47>

Links to the references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_in_Afghanistan#Reconstruction_in_Afghanistan


If only Biden's proposal prior to the invasion had been put into practice:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/clip.php?appid=596279065

When $4.5 billion was pledged by several countries in January 2002 to aid Afghanistan I got my hopes up, but as history shows us, those hopes were in vain. Timeline of the reconstruction efforts since the invasion:
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=afghanwar_tmln&afghanwar_tmln_us_invasion__occupation=afghanwar_tmln_economic_reconstruction

Afghanistan could have ended up in a much better condition in a relatively short period of time if this redirection of forces and attention to Iraq hadn't happened instead:
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=afghanwar_tmln&afghanwar_tmln_us_invasion__occupation=afghanwar_tmln_us_redirection_of_forces_to_iraq

ETA A lot more info on the Karjaki Dam project: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5777799#5781231

Details on how there are now 6,000,000 kids going to school now compared to less than a million during the Taliban reign: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8689609&mesg_id=8689830

[daleo]

82. So we should stick around for another 30 years?

Maybe a century? When do we get to say "enough" and leave?

[JCMach1]

37. Wow, I guess you would have let the South secede then

[Phil The Cat]

42. That was America in the Civil War

Afghanistan is in a whole different part of the world!

I don't like what the Islamic version of the religious right in Afghanistan does to women and gays, but does our bombing and torture stop them?

We need to engage in dialog, not bloodshedding! If someone HAS to be the bad guy, let it be them, not us!

The world should not have to fear us and our weapons!

[Ken Burch]

48. Flawed analogy.

To have a comparable situation in THAT era, you'd have had to have the British Army sending troops across the sea to defend the Union and abolish slavery. Clearly, if they'd done that(and, for the record, the British actually pretty much supported the Confederacy in the war)it would have created a massive backlash on BOTH sides of the Mason/Dixon Line and pretty much guaranteed a Union Army defeat.

[JCMach1]

49. My point was that there can be very good moral reasons to fight, or be against something...

Their values are inhumane. It is my duty as a human being to be against that wherever and however it shows itself.

The Taliban is one of those things like slavery that cannot be ignored...

[Ken Burch]

50. At the very least, then, you need to find a way

to do that without sounding like you're saying "we of the 'superior' West object to what you savages do".

The legitimate way to do that would be to support the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA).

http://www.rawa.org/help.htm

THEY can make progressive change in Afghanistan. No military force from outside the country can do that, since none can ever have a legitimate presence in that country.

[JCMach1]

52. I don't see human rights as a culturaly bound, or Western idea

From what I read, this would not even be kosher (excuse the pun) under Sharia.

Nor do I think a military solution is the answer at this point... I think that boat sailed 2003-2004 while Bush fiddled.

[leftynyc]

68. So we should just shut up?

And not scream from the rooftops that these animals are enslaving their women? Sorry women of Afghanistan - we don't want to interfere with your culture which you obviously love. You okay with that?

[Phil The Cat]

74. I'm not OK with the mistreatment of women and gays in Afghanistan

But are we helping anyone there with bombs and bullets? Our strategy to help seems to be, "If we blow you up, the Taliban can't oppress you!"

We should reach out and lend moral support to groups like RAWA, but we need to get our military out!

Our occupation helps DRIVE the behavior! The only way to stop it is trust and education, which is impossible with missles and snipers and APCs driving them to fear and resistance!

[leftynyc]

88. The occupation does no such thing

There are many good, substantial arguments to be made for getting the military out but the behavior of the taliban against women aint one of them. They were abusing women long before we got there. You honestly think things would be better for the women if we left? Seriously?

[tabasco]

76. What a coward.

I pity you.

[Phil The Cat]

80. So keeping the cycle of death is courage?

War is Peace??? Love is hate???

:nuke: :wtf:

[jmowreader]

28. The Muj and the Taliban are basically the same people, tho

The Soviets did the world one great favor: by giving the Afghan rebels (the Mujahideen forces) someone to all shoot at, they didn't have time to shoot at each other for nearly a decade. (The problem with Middle Eastern wars is, everyone in them is Not Nice People.) After the Soviets left, the Muj, having no one there that needed shootin', decided to start fighting each other. The meanest fuckers in the region were the Taliban, who eventually won the internecine war and became the controlling force in Afghanistan.

[aquart]

54. They thought they were helping them to fight the Soviets, right?

Laughing at us may be all the Russians have to laugh about right now.

[Salander]

16. This has to make yolu scratch your head and wonder why we are supporting the Taliban

[Turborama]

17. We're not supporting them.

In fact, we are at war with them.

[Salander]

63. Yes, but we do!

It has been acknowledged by the military that we pay warlords, most of who are Taliban or Taliban supporters, to guarantee safe passage for convoys that supply our troops to fight them. If that isn't support of the Taliban, I don't know what is.

[cosmicone]

67. Yes we are.

Of every dollar in aid going to Pakistan, 60 cents go to the military and 25 cents to the ISI. THIS is the money that funds the Taliban.

NO ONE except Pakistan is funding the Taliban because no one else in the world wants the Taliban to win except Pakistan. They are still blinded by their "strategic depth policy."

http://bellum.stanfordreview.org/?p=2184

[JCMach1]

18. Yeah, by all means we should continue negotiating with these guys

:sarcasm:

[dencol]

20. Better than fighting them, I suppose.

Of course, we shouldn't even be involved at this point.

[JCMach1]

21. I agree on the involvement, but I don't see how negotiation moves anything forward...

Of course, it's a clusterfark and was bound to be so.

[Liberty Belle]

19. and for the mother's "crime" they executed her unborn child, too?

Even the religious right wackos should be offended by this.

[hlthe2b]

24. Nah, they'd just promote taking the child by c-section

sans anesthesia and letting her bleed out. :mad:

Sorry, but the most extreme RW fundies are damned near as misogynistic and hateful towards women as the Taliban.

[alp227]

27. Hence the term "American Taliban"

that describes the Religious Right; although the American Christian conservative orgs love to diss radical Islam all the time, it seems that religious fundamentalists of both faiths share the same twisted "values" at times.

[Phil The Cat]

45. As bad as the Christian Fundies are with their judgmental garbage

The worst they have ever done to me is tell me I am a sinner and need to pray for forgiveness and invite me to church where they try to brainwash me into their faith! I just can't equate that to murdering a (maybe) pregnant woman!

I obviously don't buy the whole "Homosexuality is a sin" thing, but I think the general concepts of rebirth and forgiveness and repentance about the things you really HAVE done wrong is pretty cool!

I'll pass on the hocus-pocus life-after-death supernatural superstition stuff, but what can I say? I like forgiveness and fresh starts!

P.S. I know about Westboro Fred Phelps and his type, but they seem VERY rare!

[Nye Bevan]

59. Actually, it's a DU rule that in any thread about Taliban/Sharia law atrocities

someone must post along the lines of "the fundies here would love to do this too, so the US is just as bad". Open up any thread like this; that post will always be there.

[Phil The Cat]

73. Do people here REALLY think that Christians are as bad as Taliban?

Or is it the outside agitators trying to make progressives look hysterical?

I suppose from what I have read on here, probably some of both!

Again, not giving a pass to the -FUNDIE- Christians because of their demonstrated intolerance and hypocracy! But to equate someone obnoxiously praying for you to "repent" so you can go to "heaven" because we are all "sinners" and need Ceiling Cat's "forgiveness" after check out is NOWHERE NEAR as bad as someone whipping you and shooting you in the head!

But I guess for some, maybe it is worse!

[pitohui]

32. i seriously doubt she was pregnant, check her age etc. (my guess is uterine fibroid)

she was 48, the odds that she was really pregnant without medical intervention are pretty damned ridiculous

i think they just beat and tortured a woman for having a large uterine fibroid, which semi-frequently occurs in women of that age, in fact, it happened to a friend of mine at exactly that age, with the tumor growing so large ignorant yahoos thought she WAS pregnant and asked when the baby was due, i mean, hello, she's 48, some common sense here peeps -- the tumor eventually had to be removed by a hysterectomy because it grew so large, they don't always get that large, but sometimes a woman has bad luck...

ignorance kills and taliban ruled afghanistan where women can't even SEE a doctor (because doctors are men) is not a place that i would judge to have the medical care/tech to create a situation where a 48 year old woman could even GET pregnant

i have no idea if she even had an affair but i would need proof that she was pregnant, proof that doesn't exist because she almost certainly wasn't...

she probably said "no" to the wrong fascist and thus got tortured to death for being ill

the taliban can't admit they made a mistake but if they withheld execution until the baby was born they'd be waiting a long time and i think after awhile they figured it out but nobody in their society could fix it ... there never was a baby

just my speculation but the shoe fits

[Turborama]

35. Utter nonsense!

Menopause happens between the ages of 40 and 60 and the average age for last period is 51.

http://www.nia.nih.gov/HealthInformation/Publications/menopause.htm

[daleo]

83. About 200 births to women aged 48+ in England/Wales in 2009

Out of 706,000 births. So, about one birth in 3500, and that's in a country with advanced medicine, fertility treatments, etc. So, it is extremely rare.

http://www.mothers35plus.co.uk/intro.htm

[Turborama]

84. That figure could be for many reasons

The 1st one that comes to mind is that a vast majority of women have chosen to become mothers before they were 48.

The poster I was responding to made the argument 5 times that it was a ridiculous idea for her to be pregnant because she was 48. My reply showed that it is not ridiculous or impossible.



the odds that she was really pregnant without medical intervention are pretty damned ridiculous

i mean, hello, she's 48, some common sense here peeps -

not a place that i would judge to have the medical care/tech to create a situation where a 48 year old woman could even GET pregnant

i would need proof that she was pregnant, proof that doesn't exist because she almost certainly wasn't...

there never was a baby

[daleo]

91. Nobody said it was impossible

But it is very rare biologically. It is just natural fertility decline. Here are some numbers for Canada (fertility rates), for women aged 45-49:

Year=1931, 6.5 births per 1000 married women
Year=1941, 4.5 births per 1000 married women
Year=1951, 3.5 births per 1000 married women
Year=1961, 2.8 births per 1000 married women
Year=1971, 0.7 births per 1000 married women
Year=1981, 1.2 births per 1000 married women
Year=1991, 1.7 births per 1000 married women

This is from the textbook "Canadian Population" (McVey), which I used for a demography class some time back.

Probably the majority of these births were to 45, 46, and 47 year olds, as the fertility would decline with age within this age band, becoming negligible by the end. Births over the age of 50 are so rare that demographers don't bother to include them in fertility rate calculations.

It is hard to say what the numbers for present day Afghanistan would be, but I would guess around 4.0 to 5.0 births per 1000 women in that age cohort (similar to Canadian women in the 1930s to 1950s). That would imply that (at most) about 1 out every 2000 48-year old women in Afghanistan would become pregnant in any given year.

I just think it is useful to interject facts into a debate, when they are available.

[Turborama]

93. Post #32 strongly implied it was virtually impossible

As I said before, it's not a stretch to say that a vast majority of women have chosen to become mothers before they were 48.

Menopause happens between the ages of 40 and 60 and the average age for last period is 51.

http://www.nia.nih.gov/HealthInformation/Publications/menopause.htm

The poster I was responding to made the argument 5 times that it was a ridiculous idea for her to be pregnant because she was 48. My reply showed that it is not ridiculous or impossible.



Thank-you for adding the statistics, btw.

[leftynyc]

70. Not true

My 48 year old friend just had her 6th child. Finally got a boy. And no medical intevention. Nobody was more surprised than she was.

[leftynyc]

69. Are they stoning them?

Beheading them? Comparing the two is the laziest form of cultural relativism. The Christian right annoys the hell out of them but I don't have to worried about getting beaten for being outside not dressed "properly" or getting killed for holding hands with a man I'm not married to. Don't minimize what the women of Afghanistan have to live with just to prove a stupid point.

[hlthe2b]

79. Your opinion... counts for just that...

YOur rudeness aside... the extreme RW would do a lot of things if left to their own devices. Be naive if you wish. It is a tiny minority, fortunately, but that minority abuses and not infrequently kills wives and kids for "stepping out of line." I hardly consider that to be a stupid point... If you do, then heaven help you.

[leftynyc]

89. Another stupid point

The extreme right wing is NOT left to their own devices so you're just assuming what the would do. Comparing that to what actually gets done to the women of Afghanistan (and other places) just minimizes the horror these women live with every day. Does our government allow men to kill their wives for getting out of line? Is "honor killing" a valid defense anywhere in this country? Your comparison is lame.

[OhioChick]

29. That poor woman.... n/t

[cosmicone]

30. These are the people created by Pakistan

and Pakistan actively funds, trains and arms them (evident from the Wikileaks documents)....

.... and we pump money into Pakistan enabling them ...


Sad, very sad

[JCMach1]

38. created by the Saudis...

Who were encouraged by the US to create them as a bulwark against 'godless' Communism.

[cosmicone]

40. Saudis only wrote the check

at the behest of the CIA.

Pakistan created the Taliban for its own ambition to control Afghanistan it its "strategic depth policy."

http://bellum.stanfordreview.org/?p=2184

Pakistan is afraid of an Afghan regime friendly to India and thus it killed Ahmad Shah Masood who was a friend of India.

This is also the reason India has poured over a billion dollars into Afghanistan since American forces took control.

Also a reason why Pakistan rigged Afghani elections to defeat Abdullah Abdullah -- another friend of India.

Saudis don't really care who controls Afghanistan and they only pay money at the request of the CIA.

[JCMach1]

41. ISI (Pakistan's CIA) has always had their own agenda... most of it not good

and definitely not democratic.

[Turborama]

44. I thought Karzai rigged Afghanistan's elections

Have you got details on Pakistan rigging the elections? Genuine question as I hadn't heard that assertion before.

[cosmicone]

58. Both Pakistan and US wanted Karzai in power.

US because he was a known quantity, Pakistan because Abdullah Abdullah would have been far far worse for their national interest.

It was then child's play to rig the elections with ISI providing the field work and US the funds.

Abdullah Abdullah was later bought off with a combination of threats and some $28 million, half paid by Karzai's brother and the other half by CIA via ISI.

(Don't ask me to post a link! This stuff is from diplomatic circles)

[BillH76]

39. Is there video?

[canetoad]

43. That question

really disturbs me.

[Ken Burch]

51. I think the poster was just asking if there was video evidence.

I doubt his question was driven by any sordid motives.

[BillH76]

65. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. But it really was prurient interest.

[leftynyc]

72. You HAVE to be a republican

What on earth are you doing here?

[BillH76]

75. No, just a pervert.

So I guess I should be a Republican.

[Ken Burch]

78. You'd fit right in.

n/t.

[canetoad]

92. My apologies

If I miscontrued your question. It did occur to me, much later and after reading posts that the veracity of the event was doubtful, that you were requesting proof.

Once again, sorry if I read your post incorrectly.

[lunatica]

53. The word and concept of 'quagmire' sure fits doesn't it?

Even if this war had only been about stopping the Taliban and their barbaric laws we've still failed. There is no good way to either continue or to get out righteously.

It's idiotic to think that war will fix anything. It's a barbaric activity even at its best, and it's supposed to bring peace? What a fucked up concept.

[aquart]

55. Yes. Can we go home now?

[JCMach1]

56. Taliban flog, execute pregnant Afghan woman in public

This thread has been combined with another thread.

Click here to read this message in its new location.

[laureloak]

57. I wish we could take all the women out of Afghanistan. n/t

[Bragi]

61. America could support an exodus

Americans could support an exodus of people from this dreadful, primitive, backward country at far less cost than what is now being spent on a war that will end badly, if and when it ever ends.

But that won't happen, of course, so the place will continue to be run by the religious medevilists, drug lords, and tribal barons that have ruin the place for the past 200 years.

[UndertheOcean]

77. Religion (culture, singular interpretation of,some bad apples, whatever ) of peace strikes again.

[24601]

85. Sure am glad we are getting out of there! This Taliban "Law and

Order Party" needs to take over and rid the country of corruption and low morals.:sarcasm:

[JonLP24]

87. I thought this was interesting

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8922280#8922280

I guess there are multiple different reported versions of this.

[ProudDad]

90. Texas executes Innocent people in private (n/t)

[MoonGlow]

94. this really sucks