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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:13 AM
Original message
Christian woman sentenced to death in Pakistan 'for blasphemy'
Source: UK Telegraph

Asia Bibi, a 45-year-old mother-of-five, denies blasphemy and told investigators that she was being persecuted for her faith in a country where Christians face routine harassment and discrimination.

Christian groups and human rights campaigners condemned the verdict and called for the blasphemy laws to be repealed. Her supporters say she will now appeal against the sentence handed down in a local court in the town of Sheikhupura, near Lahore, Pakistan.

<snip>

The court heard she had been working as a farmhand in fields with other women, when she was asked to fetch drinking water. Some of the other women – all Muslims – refused to drink the water as it had been brought by a Christian and was therefore "unclean", according to Mrs Bibi's evidence, sparking a row.

The incident was forgotten until a few days later when Mrs Bibi said she was set upon by a mob. The police were called and took her to a police station for her own safety.

Shahzad Kamran, of the Sharing Life Ministry Pakistan, said: "The police were under pressure from this Muslim mob, including clerics, asking for Asia to be killed because she had spoken ill of the Prophet Mohammed. So after the police saved her life they then registered a blasphemy case against her." He added that she had been held in isolation for more than a year before being sentenced to death on Monday.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8120142/Christian-woman-sentenced-to-death-in-Pakistan-for-blasphemy.html
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. Religious fundamentalists are a danger everywhere.
We should consider ourselves lucky that the ones who live in the US have a harder time instating their doctrine.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No comparison. The Pakistan police judicary and govt are complicit,
what has happened is not just behaviour of mindless dolts.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Um...yes it is the beahvior of mindless dolts.
I don't care what they do for a living. They are fucking nuts.

The fundies in this country would do the same kind of shit if they could get away with it.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. mindless dolts
Followers of Beck and Palin
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Phil The Cat Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Radical Pakistanis are followers of Palin and Beck?
Cripes - if Palin and Beck can get the loyalty of the people they want to kill, what chance do we have?
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. No, followers of Palin and Beck are "mindless dolts". Please try and keep up. n/t
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Phil The Cat Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. I thought the particular topic was about the blasphemy charge
We already knew about the Palin Beck morons (ooops, I mean MORANS)!

In any case, I still don't see how a Baptist telling me I am a "sinner" who needs "forgiveness" is as bad as being executed!

Maybe I am too naive, easy going and tolerant that I see most RWers as people who need to be educated, not destroyed! I see them as ignorant, not evil! A few true scumsuckers, sure, but the bulk are well-intentioned, but misled!
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
72. The difference is that Palin and Beck don't give the death penalty to those whose
religion they disagree with.
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
55. They'd do it here in a flat second! Go Green! (in all respects!!!)
nt
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
73. That's the point. In this country they would never be allowed to get away with it. But in Pakistan
they do get away with it. So what does that tell us about Pakistan?
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Correct... the mindless behavior has been *instated* by the fundamentalists in Pakistan.
Which was kind of my point. That's more difficult to do here because we do not have the same history.
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. YES there is a comparison...
Fundies are fundies.
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
56. Fuck, yeah! Whether their skin is white or brown or yellow or any color in between...
-- their hearts are always BLACK as coal.

And their actions are vile.
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Citizen Worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. There are several thousand christian fundies here that would impose the same penalty were it someone
from a different faith. I think for the sake of humanity that ALL of the world's religious fundamentalists be rounded up and shipped off to an island somewhere and let them sort out their differences and the rest of the world can then work to bring about peace.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Name one
of the several thousands. I've never met one, I've never seen one on TV. We, of course, don't have anything resembling blasphemy laws here as it would clearly be unconstitutional and I've heard not one person in this country who wants to do away with the first amendment. This cultural relativism is a joke. I take a back seat to nobody in my comtempt for the religious right but to compare them with a country that wants to kill a person for blasphemy is ridiculous. When our government starts going after people for saying the christ story is bullshit, charges them with a crime and executes them, then we'll talk.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Of course the actions of the mob is worse than wrong on many levels. But Muslims do believe in Jesus
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 06:39 AM by Turborama
So they're not saying "the christ story is bullshit".

And it's not the government that's 'going after' her, it's a mob of psychopathic brainwashed fundaMENTALists and their enablers, the police.

Just wanted to clear up a couple of things.
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Um, no
They believe Jesus existed. They do not believe Jesus was the son of god, and certainly not that he was resurrected. "The Christ Story" isn't that there was some dude named Jesus and he was pretty cool. It;'s a bit more than that (that whole Messiah, resurrected and son of God thing), and Muslims don't believe it. Iow, Muslims believe in JESUS, but they don't believe the "Christ story."

Fwiw, historians are far from convinced Jesus even EXISTED. It is true that Muslims believe that Jesus existed and they respect him.

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I said they believe in Jesus. I meant they believe in Jesus the prophet. So... Um, yes.
n/t
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Um, no
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 07:50 AM by jancantor
you specifically made the claim that they believed the "Christ story".

The Christ story is not merely that Jesus existed or even was a prophet. I suggest you research what the term "Christ" means since I'm pretty sure you can understand the difference.

What you said in the title of your post was true. Yes, they believe Jesus existed. Many Jews believe Jesus existed too (although they don't go for the whole prophet thing). The Christ story is not merely that he existed and even that he was a prophet.



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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. No, I specifically said, "they're not saying "the christ story is bullshit"
The term Christ (or similar) appears in English and most European languages, owing to the Greek usage of Christós (transcribed in Latin as Christus) in the New Testament as a description for Jesus.

Christ & Jesus are the same thing to me.

Thanks for playing.
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. And if you are saying that Muslims believe
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 08:21 AM by jancantor
that Jesus did not rise from the dead, was not the son of god, etc. you ARE saying they believe the CHRIST STORY IS BULLSHIT. The Christ story is not defined by a belief that Jesus existed and was a prophet. The Christ story (or myth if you prefer) is that Jesus was the Messiah, as foretold in the Tanakh/Old Testament. None of those things are believed by Muslims.

You are also wrong about the meaning of Christ. It wasn't his last name. It's a title that specifically implies one believes the story that Jesus was the messiah. No Jew or Muslim who understands what the word MEANS would ever EVER refer to Jesus Christ or believe in the Christ story....

Christians are called Christians BECAUSE they believe Jesus was THE CHRIST. Jews and Muslims don't believe he was the Christ. They deny that the Christ story is true, specifically that Jesus was Messiah.

Here's a wikipedia cite to explain what Christ means: Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".<1> It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah.

The word is often misunderstood to be the surname of Jesus due to the numerous mentions of Jesus Christ in the Christian Bible. The word is in fact used as a title, hence its common reciprocal use Christ Jesus, meaning "Jesus The Messiah". Followers of Jesus became known as Christians because they believe that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah, prophesied about in the Tanakh (which Christians term the Old Testament). The majority of Jews reject this claim and are still waiting for the Messiah to come (see Jewish Messiah). Most Christians now wait for the Second Coming of Christ when they believe he will fulfill the rest of the Messianic prophecy.

The area of Christian theology focusing on the identity, life, teachings and works of Jesus, is known as Christology.

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I explained what I meant earlier.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 09:22 AM by Turborama
This came from Wikipedia, too: The term Christ (or similar) appears in English and most European languages, owing to the Greek usage of Christós (transcribed in Latin as Christus) in the New Testament as a description for Jesus.

Jesus = Christ.

Muslims believe in Jesus and do not think that the Jesus story is bullshit.

Edited to take out the snark.

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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. And you are still wrong
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 03:01 PM by jancantor
Jesus =/= CHRIST to those that don't believe the "Christ story" such as Muslims. If you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, you don't believe he was the Christ. Those terms mean THE EXACT SAME THING. Muslims do not. Hence, they do not believe the Christ story. You will not hear an educated Jew or Muslim refer to "Jesus Christ". That is both a name and title that acknowledges his Messiah status. It's DEFINITIONAL. It is not arguable. It's a TITLE

Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus the son of Mary, etc. would all be acceptable to those that don't believe the Christ story. Feel free to read the Koran and show me where Jesus is EVER referred to as The Messiah. He is not
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. If you don't get it after my easy to read explanations, you never will.
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 08:17 PM by Turborama
I don't need to read all of another one of your polemics, the subject line is enough, thanks.

As I said above, I thought Jesus = christ. I thought the poster I was replying to said that they think the Jesus story is bullshit.

This is not true. They do not think the Jesus story is bullshit.

Get it now?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
62. WRONG. If you're going to be pedantic, you might want to get an accurate definition of Messiah.
Read up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih

"Masih is the Arabic word for Messiah. In modern Arabic it is used as one of the many titles of Isa (عيسى `Īsā), who is known to Christians as Jesus Christ. Masih is most often used by Arab Christians as well as Muslims, and is written as Yasu' al-Masih (يسوع المسيح Yasū`a al-Masīħ) or Isa al-Masih.
The word Masih literally means "The anointed one" and in Islam, Isa al-Masih (The Messiah Jesus) is believed to have been anointed from birth by Alläh with the specific task of being a prophet and a king. The Israelites, to whom Isa was sent, had a traditional practice of anointing their kings with oil. A Bukhari Hadith describes Jesus as having wet hair that looked as if water was dripping from it, possibly meaning he was naturally anointed <1>. Muslims believe that this is just one of the many signs that proves that Jesus is the Messiah."

Messiah was/is a common title, and in Islam, Issa was a Masih/Messiah of the Jews.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. You're wrong
You objected to me saying Muslims claim the Christ story is bullshit and you said no they didn't. You're wrong. They believe he existed and was some kind of prophet but son of G-d, rose from the dead - you know the Christ story is bullshit. That you want to move the goalposts after realizing your mistake is your problem.
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. It's really simple to realize you are wrong if you actually use reading comprehension
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 02:53 PM by jancantor
Muslims do not beleive (contra to Turborama's claim) "The Christ Story"

The CHRIST story first and foremost would acknowledge that Jesus WAS the Christ. Muslims don't believe this. They believe he was a prophet and that he existed (the former necessarily implies the latter, obviously).

However, the CHRIST story first and foremost requires acknowledgment that Jesus was... the Christ. The messiah. Muslims do not believe that.

This isn't rocket science, despite the claims otherwise.

Turborama claimed that the claims that Muslims DID NOT believe the "Christ story" were bullshit. Muslims do NOT believe the Christ story. They do not believe in any of the stuff about resurrection, nor his alleged status as Messiah, hence they do not believe the Christ story. They DO believe he existed and was a prophet.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Isn't that exactly what I said?
She claimed they believed the Christ story and I said not so much.
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. My humble apologies
You are correct.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. "They DO believe he existed and was a prophet." That's exactly what I said to you upthread.
I have always thought christ is just another name for Jesus. You have explained at length multiple times why you don't.

The conversation has now gone full circle. /
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
64. By the numbers.
"The CHRIST story first and foremost would acknowledge that Jesus WAS the Christ. Muslims don't believe this. They believe he was a prophet and that he existed (the former necessarily implies the latter, obviously)."

He's an anointed one, a messiah, who will unite Jews, Muslims, and Christians during the end times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih

"However, the CHRIST story first and foremost requires acknowledgment that Jesus was... the Christ. The messiah. Muslims do not believe that"

On the contrary, they explicitly believe in it. Your understanding of Islam is patently wrong.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. I didn't object to it, I wanted to clarify. And I'm going to clarify again.
Seeing as I'm not an expert on the meaning of the word christ and think it means exactly the same thing as saying "Jesus" I thought you meant that they thought the Jesus story is bullshit.

I spelt it out to the other guy who weighed in but they just wouldn't get it. Hopefully you will.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
67. Historians main problem with Jesus is the lack of two independent sources...
By two people who knew Jesus personally. That is the main attack against Jesus as an "historical" person. The problem with that position is the records of almost everyone prior to the introduction of Linen paper into Europe in the 1200s suffer from the same problem. For Example the two stories of Hannibal and the Romans were written almost 100 years later AND the purpose of both "books" were to assist a later living Roman Politician by showing his ancestor did something great against Hannibal.

Several Roman Emperors we only know of a list of Roman Emperors written in the late 3rd or early 4th centuries. Worse we know that list is bad, for we have other reports of some of the Emperors on that list that contradict the list.

Just pointing out that the fact that the Gospels were written after Jesus was dead AND by people who did NOT know him personally was NOT unusual given the cost of Parchment (which is paper made from the dry skin of animals) and the fact that papyrus deteriorated rapidly outside of desert areas (Thus such scrolls survive in Egypt but NOT elsewhere).

As to the Moslem, they believe in the second coming Jesus (NOT Mohammad) who will lead the followers of Islam against the Enemy of God. This belief caused most Medieval Christians to view Moslems as Christian Heretics NOT a separate Religion.

Just pointing out the problem with your two observations, the first being the lack of Historical Support for Jesus (Christ's story has more support then the stories of several other famous people of the Ancient World, while three of the Gospels are viewed as derived from a prior common and now lost Gospel, John's Gospel is NOT, thus we have two sources of support for the existence and teachings of Christ).

The Second being that Moslems do NOT believe in Christ. While Moslems do NOT view Christ as God who came to earth lived as a man (as Christians do), but as a prophet who will come back to lead the forces of God against the enemies of God.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Are the police not part of the government?
Are the judges not part of the government? And it is my understanding that Muslims do not believe Christ was the son of G-d. Are you saying they do?
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. You are correct
Contra to his claim, Muslims do not believe the "Christ story" . Christ means Messiah. Muslims believe Jesus existed (which many historians don't) and that he was a prophet. They definitely do not believe he was the Messiah (as prophesied in the Tanakh), the son of God, that he rose from the dead, was born to a virgin or any of those aspects of the "Christ story"

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. The police in places like the one in the OP are a law unto themselves
As are the local judges, probably.

No, I am saying that Muslims believe Jesus existed as a prophet. However, when discussing his religion a few weeks ago, my faithful Muslim brother in-law told me that Muslims believe in both books of the bible and the Q'ran is like the next book. Now, on face value I would take that to mean they believe everything in the bible and I will make sure to ask him to clarify which parts of the new testament he doesn't believe in.
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jancantor Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. It's the Mandatory False Equivalency
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 07:31 AM by jancantor
that you will ALWAYS see when stories like this are mentioned. Of course one could probably find some fundamentalists in the United States who might advocate (at least theoretically) something like this. But it would be a TINY MICROSCOPIC percentage of fundies. THe false equivalency stuff is stupid, but it seems like people think it's obligatory because it allows them to feel ok about condemning these practices in Pakistan since they can lump them in with fundies from other religions.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. while i agree with much of your post & say fuck murderous fundies wherever they exist ....
.... the US govt. -- in the persona of the bush admin. -- went after the leader of another country, deposed him, arrested him, and handed him over to be arrested & put to death. and also, according to the us army's own -- latest available figures -- caused the murder of around 300,000 civilian citizens of said country, all on absolute lies manufactured by the US govt.. and this mass-murder was supported at the time by roughly 80% of the us population.

so, is it cultural relativism, or ridiculousness, to compare that whole Iraq episode with this incident?

my point being: mobs of citizens, whether in ancient Judea, or the present day USA, or Pakistan -- especially when instigated & supported by their own governments; and whether the excuse du jour is religious, military, or social -- are equally disgusting, immoral & culpable, when they are the cause of physical & economic harm to innocents. and, until we, as a species, condemn all of them equally & make such actions as reprehensible in human society as shitting in public, our sensibilities wouldn't have evolved beyond that of a pack of piranha in the Amazon waters.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-12-10 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
53. +++ /nt
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. Oh, please. Anyone who thinks Judeo-Christian fundies aren't --
-- at bottom -- AT LEAST as despicable as their Muslim counterparts needs to stop calling themselves a member of the Left.

Here is a simple syllogism to help you in your reconsideration...

The United States is still (like it or not) a Christian country ("One Nation under God, etc etc" *gag me*)

AND...

This Christian fucking nation has been waging not one but TWO immoral wars.

WHAT'S MORE...

These wars have resulted in the direct and indirect murder of upwards of ONE MILLION Iraqi and Afghan civilians. That's ONE MILLION, friend -- one followed by six zeroes.

ERGO --

American Christianity = Genocide.



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Phil The Cat Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Amen!
Imagine family gatherings here everyone can get drunk and stoned and rowdy and bawdy, and ol' Biblethumper Auntie Alice is safely stuck on an island thousands of miles away!

Families torn apart, people distraught and vengeful: Sounds like a winning plan to me! You don't think they will put up a fuss or fight, do you?

(BTW, I realize you were kidding while making a point! As big a pain as fundies are, obviously your solution would only lead to even more violence and require massive, impossible levels of manpower and money to implement!)
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is what the far right would like to do in America.
A very sad situation.
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. I think that's a bit far
Even Pat Robertson wouldn't support this.
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. Ah, I see... you can look into Pat Robertson's HEART, can you?
Because I guarantee you he'd support the execution of so-called "blasphemers" and "heretics"... not to mention Gays, Lesbians and other sexual "deviants" of all stripes, with no regrets.

The Christian fundies (especially)... just like Jewish and Muslim fundies... are a fucking blight on humanity and must be opposed.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
14. Allahu Akbar
But, then all gods, all religions, are great.

There is a reason that the near thousand year absolute rule of Europe by the Christian church is remembered as the Dark Ages.

How paradoxical then that to escape from the not improbable nascent American Dark Age, one may have to flee to Europe.
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Phil The Cat Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. You might want to take a closer look at Europe
It is NOT the happy happy we all love each other place you may believe! Even in the most liberal of countries, there is a backlash against non-Europeans that exceeds anything here!
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
59. Sorry, but I have friends in Europe who insist it is MUCH better there!
It's just far more civilized in general: More comprehensive health care packages... more powerful public unions... more vacation time... Hate Speech laws that impose a (very necessary) restraint on the more unhinged Conservative voices...

There's simply no comparison. But rather than moving to a European country, I would like to do what I can (shoulder to the wheel, etc) to Europeanize -- ie, civilize -- this one.

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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
15. there are plenty of fundamentalcase xtians in this country
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 07:08 AM by SemperEadem
that would love to do the same to folks who don't practice their specific flavor of xtianity, so no sense in trying to act like our country is any better--especially when one looks at the outcome of the last election and the implications of CU, USCOC and hidden funding of conservative candidates.

Then again, Pakistan isn't known for its toleration of its women citizens, anyway, be they xtian, muslim or whatever.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
20. Well she is a christian, and as we all know here they are bad people with a history
So she brought it on herself, just like we did the attacks on 9/11 - we deserved it, she deserves it, and the people doing it have no responsibility for their actions because we made them do it.....

There, I think I covered most the standard responses when the word 'christian' is mentioned. Good thing they didn't mention jews and I typed the above, I would be called anti-semitic and banned.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Exactly the point.
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. You forgot one thing...
What's a xtian fundie doing in Pakistan anyway? Doesn't she know how stupid that is? Why, she was practically asking for it! Especially given the imperialistic war on Islam being waged by KKKhristians in our corpo-fascist oligarchical government here in the United States of Amerikkka! I have little, if any, sympathy for her! She deserves what she gets, stupid fundie!
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
69. You left out the reflexive attempts to make the story about the US. (nt)
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
23. Salem Witch trials?
That's the parallel in the US to this.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. The Salem Witch trials of 1692? nt
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xor Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. No the ones that took place in Salem, Oregon back in August of 1995...
I'm going to make a wikipedia page about it now. :P
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Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
37. May I point out that, once again, the victim is lost in our high-minded
discussions?
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sally cat Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
38. This is a perfect opportunity to trot out bogus false equivalence stuff.
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Vehl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. sad news :(
I hope somehow there is a semblance of law left in that country which would save this woman from that horrible fate.
:(
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. A Religious Fundamentalist war is what this war will always and forever be about.
Any Islands or Countries with no Religion?
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sally cat Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Just freedom of religion will do in this woman's case.
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. If only!
nt
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
46. This mother of 5 has been in prison since June last year - heartbreaking. nt
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
48. Once again, what makes this possible?
REEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNN!
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xor Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. How do you pronouce the Ls that precede the final L?
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
51. assholes. nt
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-12-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
54. Religion makes this grief possible, but we know the solution
Western civilization has proven that it is possible to allow religious freedom to flourish while at the same time preventing eligion and the religious from becoming oppressive to non-believers.

We (I'm a product of Western culture) did this over the past few hundred years, by creating the notion of, and then establishing in reality, something now called the "secular state", where the separation of religion and the state is enshrined in law. It results in a society where people can believe or not beieve in whatever gods they wish, while still prohibiting any attempt to establsh an official, state-enforced religious belief system.

This is why people in the U.S, for example, can believe whatever crazy thing they wish, but cannot force their beliefs on anyone else.

The Muslim world, however, has not gone through the same evolution we have. This is why in Muslim countries (like Pakistan), where religious Sharia law is the law of the land, offenses like blasphemy are serious crimes often punishable by death.

And yes, should anyone wonder, I certainly do think that the secular state we have invented in the West is much more likely to produce and foster human happiness than any society which demands and enforces by law, religious uniformity on the population.

As a devotee to freedom, I appreciate not being forced to share anyone else's beliefs, and I have no reluctance in defending the idea that secular states are morally and practically superior to those which enforce official state religions, irrepective of the particulars of what that religion might be.

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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Right! So let's just up and INVADE their countries...
-- and impose our "enlightenment" on them at the business end of a sword, why don't we? Shouldn't be any problem forcing those brown people of the Middle East to undergo the same "evolution" that we have.

They'll love it!

As if we haven't got ENOUGH blood on our hands...
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sally cat Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. No, let's openly condemn them when they do this stuff and stop being afraid to speak out.
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alanquatermass Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Who's "afraid to speak out"???
nt
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Quite so
There seem to be some here who think we have but two choices: treat as unquestionable and immune to critisism everything and anything that any group of Muslims chooses to believe and practice, or to invade offending peoples to impose our will on them.

As you point out, there are other alternatives to this response.

This would include loudly condemning offensive religious practices (like killing people for religious blasphemy or for apostasy) and withdrawing support for and isolating peoples and countries that persists in such practices.


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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. And there appear to be some here who make up stuff about Muslims and Islam
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 01:12 PM by Turborama
And don't acknowledge it when they've been educated about the errors they have made. It's almost as if they have made their minds up to hate and their intention is to spread around untruths about Muslims and Islam regardless.

"treat as unquestionable and immune to critisism everything and anything that any group of Muslims chooses to believe and practice" - Nope, I've never come across anyone on DU acting like that.

"or to invade offending peoples to impose our will on them." - Never come across anyone on DU seriously suggesting that, either.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Was this story about the Christian woman made up or not? n/t
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. I wasn't talking about the OP, obviously. It's a news story.
Did you read my full post or are you making the common error of just replying to the subject line?

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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. how sad. I agree, extremist views on anything from politics, religion, etc, can make people so
cruel.

God bless her, she didn't deserve that for her faith.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #54
68. Nope, you might be surprised to find out that most Muslim majority countries are secular
If by "the Muslim world" you are referring to majority Muslim countries, most of them are secular and have "gone through the same evolution we have" in that respect.

Albania
Azerbaijan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Burkina Faso
Chad
Djibouti
Gambia
Guinea
Indonesia
Kazakhstan
Kosovo
Kyrgyzstan
Mali
Northern Cyprus
Senegal
Tajikstan
Turkmenistan
Turkey
Uzbekistan

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world#Secular_states

BTW Even if some try to impose it in certain places, Sharia law is not "the law of the land" in Pakistan. The Pakistani Taliban want it to be and that is one of the main reasons the Pakistan government and military are at war with them.
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