(Florida) Governor Rejects Federal High Speed Rail Money

[YDogg]

Source: The Ledger

"Gov. Rick Scott announced this morning he is rejecting $2.4 billion federal money for the high-speed rail route from Orlando to Tampa.

The $2.8 billion project runs along an 84-mile route between Orlando International Airport and downtown Tampa, with a stop somewhere in Lakeland."

Read more: http://www.theledger.com/article/20110216/NEWS/110219855/1410?Title=Governor-Rejects-Federal-High-Speed-Rail-Money

[spinbaby]

1. Idiot

Florida needs that rail line, plus it would provide much-needed jobs.

[HereSince1628]

2. As soon as Jeb gets to be Bush the Third, you'll get your high speed rail

I'm not so sure that Wisconsin will get another chance at high speed rail


This rejection is simply a time-lag thing connected back to the politics of NO from the past 2 years. The R's decided that refusal of everything was the best course for their political futures, it has nothing to do with the needs of the nation or the state.

[bongbong]

28. Tragedy

You say "Bush The Third" with such certainty, and sadly I'm gonna say you're probably going to be proven correct. The incredible speed with which brainwashed American Reichsvolk are forgetting history is amazing.

And the way things are going, Jeb will become the first Emperor Of America, just like Julius Caesar. His first decree will be "Give my cronies any crumbs you still have"

[AlbertCat]

57. Jeb will become the first Emperor Of America, just like Julius Caesar

More like Romulus the Great... the LAST emperor of defunct Rome.

[WatsonT]

5. Not necessarily

after it's built I imagine the cost of sustaining it will fall on the state of Florida right?

For it to be a good long term project there would need to be some reasonable projections that such an enterprise would at least be able to break even.

And that is in no way a given. Does florida have enough commuters willing to use rail within the state to get around to sustain an infrastructure heavy high-speed rail? I don't know, but it seems likely they crunched the numbers and decided that no, they didn't.

[immoderate]

33. Do you know that I-4 is a 200 mile long bottleneck?

Who do you think sustains the roads? They charge tolls, a regressive tax.

There seem to be no shortage of commuters who want to sit in their cars for hours at 10 mph on the interstate. Some of them might prefer a half hour train ride.

--imm

[Starckers]

39. Distance

Downtown Tampa to Downtown Orland is 85 miles via Mapquest. 
Doesn't anybody do any fact checking here?

[immoderate]

44. Thanks for your help, I was looking at the kilometers. Jump to conclusions much?

Yeah, I went to wikipedia. It said:

I-4 maintains a diagonal, northeast-southwest route for much of its length, although it is signed east-west. The 132-mile (212 km) route begins with an interchange with I-275 in Tampa and continues east toward I-75.

So it's a 132 mile bottleneck. (Or a 212 km bottleneck.) And the 85 mile stretch that concerns you is also a bottleneck. It's hard to tell that from Mapquest.

Carry on!:patriot:

--imm

[Roland99]

37. Considering I-4 from Deland/Sanford to past Disney is VERY heavy ALL the time (50 miles worth)

and that the Orlando LYNX bus system sucks ASS unless one wants to no more than about 5 miles down one of the major arteries and that any other highway is a TOLL road then YES, the people of central FL would ride SunRail and the high-speed line.

Plus linking other FL cities to the various theme parks and people from Orlando to the beaches of Tampa and Miami.

I can only see positives with this.

[HereSince1628]

38. FIgures don't lie, but you can choose the numbers you crunch.

I'm not sure any serious thought was given to it. I'd enjoy seeing it if it exists.

But even if equations were formed and calculations were performed, would the actuary be likely to choose to incorporate issues like the future desirability of high fuel-to-passenger ratios for long distance vacation travel? Likewise, would other than "as-it-has-always-been" thinking be used to include in the calculations how rising fuel prices might hurt Florida's accessibility as a tourist destination from out of state?

The idea was to create an alternative transportation system to air-travel, which you will remember was much disrupted by one day of terror events. We were shown a strategic weakness in domestic travel, high speed rail would provide an alternative. Strategically redundancy is always a good thing, it's very much like insurance. Republicans like insurance the whole high speed rail project was poorly marketed and it was marketed in a time of political resistance when it's marketing should have been exquisitely good.

[WatsonT]

50. Amtrak is a net loss of money

despite running through some very densely populated areas (more so than Florida) and connecting cities that also deal with high traffic.

High speed rail is not a universal solution to every problem.

[immoderate]

71. "High speed rail is not a universal solution to every problem."

You sure shot down that strawman!

Do the highways make money? :shrug:

--imm

[WatsonT]

76. Highways are paid for

via gas taxes.

Which works out essentially that people using it pay for it.

Amtrak requires constant federal subsidies IN ADDITION TO money collected via regular fares.

So highways are paid by those who use them. AMTRAK is paid for by those who use it, and everyone else.

[immoderate]

78. You better sit down then.

Myth Busted: Roads not Paid for by Gas Taxes

Portland, OR– A new report, “Do Roads Pay for Themselves?” released today by the Oregon State Public Interest Research Group disproves the common misperception that road-building is paid for by user fees, showing that federal gas taxes cover barely half the costs of building and maintaining roads, a fraction which is likely to fall steadily.

Among the findings of the report:

• Federal gasoline taxes were originally intended for debt relief, not roads.
• Over the last 63 years, highways, roads and streets have received more than $600 billion in subsidies in excess of the amount raised through gasoline taxes.
• The amount of money a particular driver pays in gasoline taxes bears little relationship to his or her use of roads funded by gas taxes. Drivers pay gasoline taxes for the miles they drive on local streets and roads, even though those proceeds are typically used to pay for state and federal highways.
http://www.ospirg.org/news-releases/transportation/transportation-news/myth-busted-roads-not-paid-for-by-gas-taxes

A civilized country could afford high speed trains in the 21st century. You really should expand your horizons.

On edit: Here's one from California. It adds:

As we enter a new year, California and the nation face tough choices about how to invest in better transportation. • The California High-Speed Rail Authority needs to complete final engineering and environmental studies and the legislature needs to allocate bond funds in the upcoming budget so that construction on California’s high-speed rail line can begin in the Central Valley in 2012.
http://www.calpirg.org/news-releases/transit-news/transit-news/myth-busted-road-costs-not-covered-by-gas-taxes

--imm

[WatsonT]

83. That was a snippet

from a study that I'd be very interested in seeing the details of.

I clicked on the pdf link and it gave me a popup saying the file is damaged and cannot be displayed.

Do you have another source?

[Kennah]

84. Try these links

http://www.uspirg.org/home/reports/report-archives/transportation/transportation2/do-roads-pay-for-themselves-setting-the-record-straight-on-transportation-funding

http://cdn.publicinterestnetwork.org/assets/28b773b9f18cdb23da3e48a8d7884854/Do-Roads-Pay-for-Themselves_-wUS.pdf

[WatsonT]

85. Same problem

new error message: expected pict

whatever the hell that means.

I'll keep looking for the original report. But from the summary it seems much of the funds are being diverted from road use to other projects;

* State gas taxes are often not entirely “extra” fees – Most states exempt gasoline from the state sales tax. The substitution of the gasoline tax for the sales tax diverts much of the money that would have gone into a state’s general fund to a fund used often for the exclusive benefit of drivers. In some states, such as New Jersey, the gasoline tax is at times lower than the corresponding sales tax would be, meaning that drivers get a net tax subsidy that encourages the purchase of gasoline relative to other goods.

* Federal gas taxes have typically not been devoted exclusively to highways – The federal gas tax began its life as a deficit-fighting measure under President Herbert Hoover decades before the Interstate Highway System. Only during a brief 17-year period beginning in 1956 did Congress temporarily dedicate gas tax revenues to construct the Interstate network, a project completed in the 1990s. Since 1973, the gasoline tax has been used to fund a variety of important transportation priorities and has periodically been used to reduce the federal deficit.

* Many states use gas tax revenue for a variety of purposes – While many states have historically dedicated their own state gasoline taxes to highways, that decision has not been universal. According to Federal Highway Administration data, roughly 20 cents of every dollar collected in state gas taxes, motor vehicle fees or tolls nationwide is used for public transportation and other governmental purposes. Many of the states that do use gasoline taxes solely for highways do so because they remain bound by constitutional earmarks of gasoline taxes imposed as much as three-quarters of a century ago, regardless of whether those decisions still make sense today.



All of those things point out flaws with what state governments have done with this money, not that the entire program is flawed. (again I'd need to see their work first).

If the people running AMTRAK were to divert large percentages of their ticket sales to completely unrelated projects and then wind up in the red I wouldn't hold that against the entire mode of transportation: that would be a bureaucratic/management/political problem not a practical problem associated with the technology.

If gas taxes are generating x amount but only .7x are actually making it to roads and the shortfalls in road maintenance can be accounted for by that .3x then I'd say the program is fine, its the management of the funds that needs work.

[Kennah]

86. With the second link, try ...

... right click, save as (and I guess I'm assuming a Windows OS).

[WatsonT]

91. No luck

but I think the quotes I pointed out are glaring faults in the argument against roads paying for themselves.

If the money is being diverted and that leads to a short fall is it the taxes that are to blame, or the fact that the funds are being diverted?

[WatsonT]

82. Highways already

A) have been built, a huge advantage when discussing current budget woes and B) already have a funding source allocated to them.

If this were 60 years ago and the discussion was whether to invest in to the american highway system or american rail system that would be a radically different discussion.

[snappyturtle]

72. I just read an article today (wish I could rmember where) that Amtrak

passenger traffic is up! I have ridden Amtrak from Washington, D.C. to Chicago and Chicago to Denver and loved it. But, sadly a trip I took from Saas Fe Swit. to northern Italy was the best train I've ever been on and that was in 1973!

I think that with the cost of gasoline edging ever upward high speed rail will become a welcomed alternative for commuters. The governor who finally allows one will become recognized for his foresight. imho


Edit: Found it! right here of DU! Duh!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x433691

[WatsonT]

77. Possibly

Rail has many drawbacks and advantages. As gas becomes more expensive that will shift towards advantages.

Who knows what the future holds. But stating outright that highspeed rail is necessarily the best answer is unsustainable at this moment.

[ixion]

41. Florida has millions of commuters, and the I-4 corridor is a mess

so I question his decision in the extreme.

More than likely is that his bribes were insufficient.

[liberalmike27]

34. Really?

Man, could republicans come out more blatantly for any jobs at all??

Anyone unemployed in that area should think about voting for democrats en masse.

Do these duped up low-information voters have to see a republican over their heads wielding a machete before they realize they are under attack?

[Starckers]

42. Rail traffic

Who would use it?  Certainly not tourists who either fly into
Orlando or Tampa.  You can fly into either, see what you want
to see, and drive one way to the other city and then you have
your car.  Not commuters either, because there are few of them
that work in one city or another.  There is no way to get
around using public transport after you get off the train. 
Sorry we do not need another boondoggle like Amtrak, which
looses how much money per year??  Yes I 4 gets to be stop and
go at the rush hours, but so does I 95 in the NE where there
is already rail.

[CLANG]

49. boondoggle like Amtrak, which looses how much money per year??

Nah, I don't think it looses any money at all. :eyes: :rofl:

[Bigmack]

74. Are we playing with the word "looses"... or...

are we talking about whether Amtrak loses money.

Lost $1.1 Billion in 2008.

$1.1 Billion is couch-cushion money in a $3.82 Trillion budget.

We need to subsidize public transport and learn to use it.

[bobw999]

68. Right.

We need more roads since they make so much money.



:sarcasm:

[Liberal Not Leftist]

81. Florida does not need a high speed rail line. Besides that, the projected cost of $2.8 billion

is inaccurate, which means that taxpayers will be on the hook for cost overruns as well as shortfall in funding.

[dd2003]

87. Impeach

Impeach! Impeach! Impeach!

[dmr]

3. Florida's been wanting to build high speed rail for decades.

Imagine the jobs lost on this.

Scott leaves me speechless. :grr:

[bluestateguy]

4. OK, so who gets the money now?

That's bad for the people of Florida, but they elected him and now they are going to see the consequences of that.

Who gets the money now?

[WatsonT]

6. Dibs

[xxqqqzme]

32. Boxer & Feinstein have been

vigilant. They have scooped up other rejected HSR funds for use in California

[RandySF]

7. Fine

More money for California. :)

[Tatiana]

8. They should reallocate the $$$ to IL, CA, and NY.

Too bad Ohio rejected their money. They really could have used and sustained high speed rail, IMO. Cleveland, Columbus and Cincy were tailor perfect for this type of transportation and it would have reduced traffic while encouraging alternate transportation methods.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

9. UPDATE 1-Florida governor rejects US high-speed rail funds

Source: Reuters

Feb 16 (Reuters) - Florida's Tea Party movement-backed Governor Rick Scott on Wednesday said he was rejecting federal funds to construct a high-speed railway project in the state.

"Government cannot spend more than it takes in," the Republican governor said.

Scott spoke at a news conference in the state capital, where he strongly criticized the budget proposal for 2012 unveiled on Monday by President Barack Obama and said federal grants earmarked for Florida to begin work on a high-speed rail link between Tampa and Orlando would be rejected.

The newly-elected governor, a former healthcare executive and uncompromising fiscal conservative, cited the likelihood of cost overruns for the project as the main reason for rejecting the federal funding.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/16/florida-rail-idUSN1629082420110216

[madrchsod]

10. cool! more money for the states that want rail funds !

[Jackpine Radical]

Jesus. He must be an acolyte of WI's Scott Mubarak.

[madrchsod]

23. wisconsin`s failure leaves minnesota with out access to chicago

the only rail line to minnesota would be through iowa which time wise is not worth the cost.

[Jackpine Radical]

26. I was really hoping for good rail connections to Chi-Town.

We get down there a few times a year, and the proposed rail route would have been very convenient. As it is, we have often driven 90 miles to catch Amtrak to Chi.

[AngryAmish]

27. Except for the interstate and the airports

Now if you folks could just keep your bridges out of the Mississippi then all should be cool.

[barbiegeek]

29. What about Rail from Minn to Kansas City or St. louis

[Denninmi]

12. We'd be happy to have it here in Michigan.

Thanks, idiot! Send it our way. The want to build a commuter light rail system from the 'burbs to Detroit's downtown waterfront business center.

[Vidar]

48. I agree but we just elected a similar idiot.

[dragonlady]

13. These people have no imagination, only ideology

Just like in Wisconsin and Ohio, where our governors gave away our chance to be part of a national rail network. :puke:

[xchrom]

14. good. give it to the states that want it. nt

[roody]

15. That would be California---so sorry Fl.

[xchrom]

17. +1

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojorabbit]

45. His lack of vision is beyond contempt. nt

[otohara]

18. Lean Backward

the GOP way

[FLPanhandle]

19. We've elected an idiot.

So what if it's a parking lot between Tampa and Orlando on I4? It's not even money coming out of the Florida budget!!!

[Inuca]

22. An idiot who is also

is a slimy crook. Sorry, Florida. One of the most painful outcomes of November.

[DirkGently]

20. At this rate, Scott's going to burn to Florida to the ground in a year. Tops. He is filth.

[madmom]

21. welcome to our world >:(

[Divine Discontent]

62. OH MY.......

:wow:


this unpopular gov has certainly made even more people disgusted with him!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

11. UPDATE 1-Florida governor rejects US high-speed rail funds

This thread has been combined with another thread.

Click here to read this message in its new location.

[Lorien]

24. What an asshat. This State has voted twice FOR high speed rail

the last time we did so the measure on the ballot made it mandatory for the State to begin the project-but Jeb Bush's tax cuts for the rich drained the funds. Now we're offered the money and the Governor Voldemort wants to reject it? Fuck that. Florida was made for high speed rail (warm, sunny, flat-and with parking lot freeways). It's time for us to deluge that crook with calls.

[Divernan]

25. W/ so many senior drivers, Florida REALLY needs high speed rail.

As does my home state, Pennsylvania. PA and FL have the highest number of seniors (of which I am one) in the country.

It is scary as hell to see someone who can barely walk even with a walker, or shuffles along with a cane, get behind the wheel of a car. They simply don't have the reflexes or coordination to be on the highway. One friend of mine was legally blind, with macular degeneration in both eyes, but was still driving a big boat of a car, with her even feebler husband telling her when to brake and when to turn. She kept promising me she would stop, but she didn't. Finally I ratted her out to her out of state adult kids, which was better than an anonymous call to the local costabulary.

Theoretically, physicians are supposed to notify the state when patients should no longer be driving, but seldom do - they don't want to lose a paying client. And the state COULD require vision and road testing, say, every two years after age 70, but the politicians don't want to anger any of their constituents. That leaves it up to the adult children to try to convince Mom or Dad to give up the car. Since we have ever worsening, and totally inadequate public transportation compared to EU countries, that's impractical.

It would be so fantastic to have train service similar to Germany, England, France, etc.

[harun]

35. We in Pennsylvania will gladly take that money and start buildin. That route in Florida really needs

it. What an ignorant, stubborn thing to do by their governor.

[Divernan]

53. Do you expect any better from our new GOP Governor Corbett?

I can't think of anything as ignorant or stubborn as his position on making Pennsylvania the only gas producing state which does not have a gas extraction tax. He prefers to cut out the health insurance program for the working poor, adult Basic.

[harun]

61. No, he's horrible too.

[Starckers]

43. Seniors

Would not use it much, they tend to stay in their community
and you do not see that many on the I 4 corridor.

[LanternWaste]

51. Peer reviewed analysis and sources to cite, or merely opinion?

Peer reviewed analysis and sources to cite, or merely opinion?

[Starckers]

52. It is

Personal observation.  I am on I 4 a lot at all times.

[LanternWaste]

54. I doubt that anecdotal evidence is objective enough

I doubt that anecdotal evidence is objective enough to deny or allow a mass transit project.

And of the 'seniors not leaving their communities', I imagine that is also anecdotal evidence... in that you yourself rarely see seniors outside of their communities (meaning of course, you are aware of the communities all these seniors that you see live in..?).

[Starckers]

65. Do drive there?

I do and and all times and all hours, and my peeps live there, my Uncle on the corridor, and my bro. You can call it what you like. How much does Amtrak lose each year??

[Starckers]

66. Do drive there?

I do and and all times and all hours, and my peeps live there, my Uncle on the corridor, and my bro. You can call it what you like. How much does Amtrak lose each year??

[WatsonT]

69. This thread is full of anecdotal evidence

on both sides of the argument.

[eilen]

55. Are you looking in the buses?

Seniors love to travel. They are retired, have the money and time. Plus, there is a large number of snowbirds from the Northeast that are on those highways.

[Divernan]

70. Welcome to DU, by the way.

I respect anecdotal evidence. Here's mine. As a senior myself, and one with a 10 year old Saab with nearly 200,000 miles on it (which I will drive until it can't be reasonably repaired), I don't trust it for long trips. However, if quality high speed rail was available, I would be traveling to Key West, Kansas City, Seattle, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Boston, NYC, San Diego & Madison/WI to visit friends and family. And Philadelphia for the annual flower show.

(Based on the longevity of my previous Saabs, I think this car will last longer than I'll be qualified to drive!)

On edit: My bad. I assumed with your low post count that you were new to DU. But I just looked at your profile and you've been here over 5 years!

[DirkGently]

64. That's a great point.

[grahamhgreen]

30. Right. Not enough was going into his pocket.

[TheCowsCameHome]

31. His head is more bone that I thought.

Oh well, more for other states.

[chowhound]

36. florida got kasick'd just like ohio .....nt.

[JackRiddler]

40. God these people are so stupid.

[valerief]

46. Can people still afford to go to Disneyworld? nt

[eilen]

56. People from China and Germany maybe. nt

[Divine Discontent]

63. pretty busy there from what I can tell. and, yes, lots of International guests.

this gov is a tool of the corporations, and has a very low rating already.....


this aint gonna help!

[liberal N proud]

47. And how many jobs would that have created?

GOP kills jobs

[Historic NY]

58. Hey Florida hows that for capturing tourists outside Disney......

the third Repuke Governor to reject rail....no wonder were dependant on oil. Well at least the rental car business will offer much in the way of Scott 7000000 promised jobs.

[go west young man]

59. Teabaggers putting themselves out of work when free money is offered.

They need to create a new type of Darwin Award for em. Yet I'm sure they are happy
throwing a trillion into a useless F-35 fighter plane. No social security or health care
for em but billions for military junk. Bend over and spread em Florida your new Gov's
got your back! Ha!

[Starckers]

67. Define Free

It is coming from the pockets of the AATP.

[MasonJar]

60. Florida has elected a douzy once again. All America needs to get

out of its car and on to the rails, just like Europe. We have the tracks. Put passenger trains on the tracks we already have and then add the high speed routes as the money is available. Otherwise we are going to continue to use up 25% of the world's resources until they are diminished to nothingness.

[BadGimp]

73. TDB

Govna..

[rstampa]

75. We should get a rally to march on Tallahassee.

Florida's governor Rick Scott, has rejected the High Speed rail plan from Tampa to Orlando and Miami. The voters voted yes for the rail back in 2008. And the Feds would give us 2.5 billion dollars for the project. Our crooked Governor today rejected the plan. Let us march on Tallahassee to overturn his decision?

[Le Taz Hot]

79. Dear Governor Scott:

Thanks so much for your contribution to our high-speed rail project which is projected to create 120,000 jobs. Your generosity is much appreciated.

Yours truly,
The State of California

[Scurrilous]

80. @#$% Rick Scott.

:thumbsup:

[Bryn]

88. Gov. Scott Rick tweeted, calling it "ObamaRail"

I tweeted back, slamming him! "It's about Obama, not the people in Florida?" He also tweeted that it would cost taxpayers lots of money for the rail, I tweeted back that we'd gladly pay for it rather than wars!

Some people are tweeting, calling him "Gollum" LOL

[Divine Discontent]

89. he is that character and Skeletor, too! He believes the notion that it won't be profitable, which

is ludicrous. The tourists would be using it every day to go from the beach to Orlando, plus business travelers would use it instead of running their car into the ground with all the traveling and lost time driving at 0-75 depending on traffic, and I would rather zoom on a high speed rail ANY DAY!

[fittosurvive]

90. I’m not necessarily opposed to high speed rail; however,

I would prefer to see it built with money coming from people who would stand to gain or lose based on its success for failure.

[BreweryYardRat]

92. Shit like this is why I voted for Alex Sink.

Unfortunately, legions of brainless schmucks and bigots voted for Scott.