Gaddafi's government scorns Libyan rebel truce offer

[David__77]

Source: Reuters

TRIPOLI/AJDABIYAH, Libya, April 1 (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi's forces intensified their onslaught in the western rebel outpost of Misrata on Friday and his government scorned rebel conditions for a nationwide ceasefire.

A rebel leader, speaking after talks with a U.N. envoy in Benghazi, offered a truce on condition that Gaddafi left Libya and his forces quit cities now under government control.

"They are asking us to withdraw from our own cities .... If this is not mad then I don't know what this is. We will not leave our cities," government spokesman Mussa Ibrahim told reporters in Tripoli a few hours later.

...

Read more: http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/gaddafis-government-scorns-libyan-rebel-truce-offer

[aSpeckofDust]

1. Pretty much as I expected. The ceasefire terms were a bit out there.

It would be like us asking the Koch brothers to bankroll our fight against citizens united.

[joshcryer]

13. How so? The terms were simple. Stop seiging cities that didn't support the regime.

It's trivial. The only reason Gaddafi wouldn't do it is because it cuts off Sirte. If there was no Sirte he'd have no strategic reason to say OK.

What it does show is that Gaddafi is not willing to actually respect the cease fire under any circumstances, contrary to oh so many reports here saying Gaddafi wanted to negotiate.

[Aerows]

19. The fight has changed

It's an ideological fight between two political parties. It's like getting in the middle of people fighting about religion - it never ends well. I know you support the rebels, but this is going to turn into the US getting a bloody nose for our efforts, and possibly some broken bones.

[defendandprotect]

28. What political parties? G is a dictator and has been one for 40 years ....

What would you be doing in that position?

Diplomacy is not going to work to dislodge G as it did with Mubarak --

This is a monster who will destroy his own people before he will leave!

And what are we getting in the faked wars in Iraq and Afghanistan except two wars

over 10 years bankrupting our Treasury and aiding and abetting corruption/crime?

Do you think they have something to do with democracy?

[defendandprotect]

32. "The criminal's (Gaddafi's) forces fired at the city with all kinds of shells, rockets and bombs"

Report: 28 people died in Misurata in the past three days of fighting...

A spokesman for the anti-Gaddafi fighters in Misurata told AFP that 28 people had died in the city in the past three days of fighting. He denounced the "disproportionate use of force", saying:

The criminal's <Gaddafi's> forces fired at the city with all kinds of shells, rockets and bombs.

Today they tried to reach the port, destroying everything on their path.

The Libyan foreign ministry said Monday that an anti-rebel offensive in Misrata had been stopped after security was restored.


3:19am

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-2



Repeat from the Libyan Revolution thread --
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=792681&mesg_id=794350

[Uncle Joe]

2. The way I understand it, they only asked them to pull out of rebel held cities and allow peaceful

protests.

Allowing peaceful protests and political opposition to thrive forming a democratic government representing the Libyan People doesn't give up anything, it's all Libyan.

Thanks for the thread, David.

[EFerrari]

3. It doesn't make much sense to me to bomb a man's home

and then turn around and ask him to respect a democratic process.

[Uncle Joe]

4. The way I understand it.

1. The protests began first and they were shot at.

2. Gaddafi hasn't respected a democratic process in 40 years.

Edit to add, That would be equivalent to ten terms of George W Bush.

[EFerrari]

5. I think both of those things are right.

On the other hand, they've put Gaddafi in a position where he can't really negotiate now, imo.

[Uncle Joe]

6. I disagree.

1. If he had any moral courage or integrity, he would still negotiate recognizing his own culpability in this long injustice against his own people.

2. The primary person that put him in this position, is him self and he more than any other single individual has the power to change that.

[EFerrari]

7. Right but if the idea is to spare as many lives as possible in this situation

his personal insights about wrongdoing can't be what we count on.

[Mimosa]

8. Can you please give a link showing Gaddafi's 'injustices' against his own people?

Have Libyans been starving to death like the people in North Korea? Have their homes and properties been taken from them, as in Mugabe's Zimbabwe?

[ProSense]

9. Here:

'Many killed' in Libya's Benghazi

Gaddafi blames bin Laden in speech

Embattled but defiant

[Mimosa]

10. I mean a year ago.

How about BEFORE the war was launched against Gaddafi? Whoever even heard he was doing bad things?

[ProSense]

11. "How about BEFORE the war was launched against Gaddafi? "

Those were all before the U.N. resolution.

What's with the defense of Gaddafi?

[Mimosa]

16. No defense of Gaddafi. I'm consistent at least.

I'm against US making more enemies in the Muslim world. Our actions have been making enemies for a long time.

I was against the invasion of Iraq. I'm against this.

As BVar has shown, it's about the oil.

[ProSense]

18. " it's about the oil."

It has nothing to do with oil.

President Obama just announced a proposal to cut dependence on foreign oil.

Oil companies from around the world are already in Libya. Gaddafi was a great BushCo ally.

ExxonMobil signs PSA with Libya National Oil (2005)

Why Gaddafi's Now a Good Guy (2006)

<...>

At the time, it may have sounded like the typical ramblings of the Libyan leader. But now, a year later, Gaddafi and Bush do apparently see eye to eye. On Monday, Gaddafi accomplished one of history's great diplomatic turnarounds when Secretary of State Condeleezza Rice announced that the U.S. was restoring full diplomatic relations with Libya and held up the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya as "a model" for others to follow. Rice attributed the ending of the U.S.'s long break in diplomatic relations to Gaddafi's historic decision in 2003 to dismantle weapons of mass destruction and renounce terrorism as well as Libya's "excellent cooperation in response to common global threats faced by the civilized world since September 11, 2001."

<...>

[joshcryer]

42. Libya and Egypt are the first instances in the Arab world where the US...

...is getting relatively favorable views.

[joshcryer]

12. Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Salim_prison

His atrocities go on for years. Particularly against political prisoners. Unfortunately the world doesn't give a shit if people are killed over politics.

[Turborama]

20. Just because Gaddafi's crimes have been ignored by the public doesn't mean they haven't happened....

Here's a list of Human Rights Watch reports on Libya made over several years: http://www.hrw.org/en/by-issue/publications/232

Their Libya homepage: http://www.hrw.org/en/middle-eastn-africa/libya

Events of 2 years ago sparked current uprising in Libya
A group of families in Benghazi took to the streets two years ago, laying the foundation for the current revolt
by Jo Becker
Published in: Global Post
MARCH 11, 2011
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/03/11/events-2-years-ag

In fact, what happened 2 years ago was related to something that happened 15 years ago...

Libya: June 1996 Killings at Abu Salim Prison
JUNE 27, 2006
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/06/27/libya-june-1996-k

Excerpt from Time article: "Gaddafi's Blood-Soaked Hands"

Posted by MASSIMO CALABRESI Tuesday, February 22, 2011 at 10:57 pm

=snip=

Drawing recruits from his terrorism camps, Gaddafi trained, armed and dispatched thugs like Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh to take power in West African countries, initiating the brutal slaughter of innocents in Liberia and Sierra Leone, says David M. Crane, the founding prosecutor of the Special Court for Sierra Leone. “This was a long-term criminal conspiracy,” says Crane, who is now a professor at Syracuse University, and “ was the center point.”

For those who don't remember, here's a quick summary of the atrocities that took place in the war in Sierra Leone in the 1990s. In pursuit of diamonds, timber and gold, Sankoh, backed by Taylor, backed by Gaddafi, invaded Sierra Leone and instituted a campaign of terror, cutting off the arms and other body parts of civilians to frighten the country into compliance. Rape was a widespread weapon of war, and according to reporting by one human rights organization, Sankoh's troops played a game where they would bet on the sex of a baby being carried by a pregnant captive, then cut the fetus out of the woman to determine its gender.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/22/gaddafis-blood-soaked-hands/#ixzz1IAJ5JC97

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How the current situation began, as recorded in posts made here by me in LBN and the videos forum...

it was started by unarmed civilians peacefully protesting and getting gunned down. For peacefully protesting.

Their subsequent reaction was not to just let him continue gunning them down, but to fight back as they are now.

Here's a few refreshers...

The 1st video posted on DU about this (notice how many replied to it): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=554439">Police Fire Live Rounds At Protesters In Benghazi, Libya (Graphic)

Another one a few days later (notice again how many people replied to it): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=556257">"Non-stop" Gunfire In Tripoli, Libya's Capital

It could be argued that the first stirrings of unrest this year were in January: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4697432">Citizens storm residential units in Libya

Ignored LBN article from February 16: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4736194">(At least 2) Protesters die in Libya unrest

Another ignored one from the 17th: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4737047">Libya's antigovernment protests escalate on 'day of rage' against Muammar Qaddafi

The death toll increased to over 200 on the 17th: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4737916">Libya protests leave 24 dead


(This image is a live link to the article)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE19/011/2011/en/5a97c7df-aee8-4830-9f2b-d54f805d2dc1/mde190112011en.html">

(Anyone who tries to defend this monster gets permanently put ignore from now on)

[PufPuf23]

43. I want Gadaffi gone. Question method and timing and public voices.

Add foggy media even on internet (and DU for that matter).

USA and NATO policy has been to rehab Gadaffi's former image since 2003 when in became complicit in the WOT.

Libya was a rendition site.

A pro-western-secular Libya and democratic Libya is what I want.

No dictator, no family, military, nor financial monarchy.

I worry about Egypt. The Army is in charge and has a new law against protests.

Mubarak also supported the WOT and stable relations with Israel and the Suez Canal.

In return under Mubarak (less than Sadat, who could have been a positive transformational leader), Eygypt is one of the more modernly armed by the USA (over 1000 modern USA tanks, top ten or five of modern USA warplanes.)

Now Egypt has me worried because "they" -- military command -- have outlawed protests.

OTOH Egypt could be a solution given the hardware and legal cover of UN et al.

Combine Egyptian hardware and other Arab leagie ground troups with the NATO no fly zone and go to all borders, east to west from desert to sea. Removing all arms with engagement or temporary for those that resist and families.

Any Libyan innocent pro- or anti- Gadaffi would be let through the lines of the Arab League forces and placed in temporary refugee status of kindness and promise of a swift return to their homes and lifes. I would wager this is the wish of a vast majority of Libyans, especially those young or with young (says an old American).

Gadaffi may give up, splinter with family, or faux "martyr".

What Libya needs is a clean sweep of violence and the ability to commit violence and removal economic and military power monarchists, some probably to the ICC for crimes against humans. Actually, Gadaffi did better for Libyans than most African Nations.

Then a true representitive democray can be formed.

Every moment of violence causes damage, wasted lives, and damages between the peoples of Libya.

[defendandprotect]

25. You mean you deny G has been a dictator over more than 40 years?

[Uncle Joe]

44. Being a dictator in and of itself is an injustice against the people and the person most responsible

for that being the case in Libya is Moammar Gaddafi.

Would you consider it an injustice against the American People if George W Bush had declared himself as mighty leader for life and ruled for 40 years, grooming one of his offspring to take over.

If you consider yourself a "benevolent dictator," you're still first, last and in the middle a dictator and you have no just basis for ruling the people.

The people of Libya were fed up, they protested and they were shot at, no doubt some Libyans still support Gaddafi just as some people would support eternal Bush rule had it been imposed on them by the force of weapons and others; mainly the mega-wealthy would support him out of narrow self-interest.

[joshcryer]

15. There's nothing to negotiate. Just like in Egypt there was nothing, and in Tunisia there was nothing

Just like Yemen where there is nothing and Syria where there is nothing. These tyrants must go. Full stop. Gone. Bye.

[defendandprotect]

26. Why would it be a positive to allow a dictator such as G to negotiate terms?

This is a man laying landmines against his own citizens --

Using rape as a tool of war against them --

Bombing the cities of Libya --

Bringing in mercenaries -- 50,000 of them -- to fight for his regime which his

own people want ended?

[EFerrari]

31. Because it will stop the killing?

What are you waiting for, for him to be assassinated? Is that the justice you're seeking?

That isn't justice. That's just replacing one brutality for another.

[defendandprotect]

33. Since it would be rebels who would be killed, why would I want that ?

Do you not understand that Gaddafi is killing the citizens of these towns he

is occupying? KILLING?

However, giving a monster like Gaddafi strong influence over this would be

a mistake by any means.

What are we waiting for in Iraq and Afghanistan except to kill more citizens?

How upset are we about Obama running drones over Pakistan?

In Egypt, with I think it was 30 million citizens/? their death toll even with

the viciousness of Mubark was something in the hundreds -- I think less than 500 --

don't know the woundings. And Mubarak was pressured to leave, successfully.

In Libya, diplomacy is not going to move Gaddafi -- he is waging full scale

war on his own people -- "genocide." Let's hope that other influences like the

departure of those officials close to him still supporting will cause this regime

to finally crumble before he destroys any more of Libya and its people.


In Misurata alone, there are 400 deaths and more -- 1,400 woundings -- and that was

last week!

And still Gaddafi is planting landmines!

[joshcryer]

40. Wait. Killing Gaddafi is replacing one brutality for another?

Killing Gaddafi says nothing about who will "replace" him therefore that is just illogical.

Negotiating with Gaddafi will not stop the killing. The amnesty calls were bullshit, if they just lay down arms today Gaddafi will "take care of them" in the future, you can fucking count on it. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

[defendandprotect]

24. +1000% -- and Gaddafi has been bombing homes, everywhere --

evidently in the last night or two his troops have set homes on fire.

[joshcryer]

14. As if he would have ever obeyed the cease fire. He said he was "ceasing fire" as he rolled...

...on Benghazi. That's the level of patent dishonesty the regime is capable of.

[Mimosa]

17. And this is our business how? US is now Globocop for hire? n/t

[daleo]

21. Realistically, it's China's money being spent

It looks like they will keep lending money to the west for these foreign adventures, though. It's awfully generous of them.

[Mimosa]

23. That's the biggest ironic LOL ever.

Yes, I have a Chinese friend who tells me they have learned from history and will lend 'U.S.' every dime we require to ruin ourselves. he says they know that with their population they will be self-supporting and we won't. :(

[defendandprotect]

30. Remember, the Pentagon still can't find $3.4 TRILLION of their funds ... !!

But they know the price of every bullet!!

And the value of nothing!!

[defendandprotect]

27. It's a humanitarian effort to prevent G from slaughtering his own people -- "genocide" --

you don't see that as a positive?

Iraq and Afghanistan are different -- they're fake wars to control oil in the ME --

based on the lies of 9/11.

We have fascism in America now -- eventually you may come to understand that

"We are all Libya!" --

[EFerrari]

34. Actually, we're not all Libya. Even Libya is not all Libya

but an assortment of groups and cross affiliations.

And Libya is exactly like Afghanistan and Iraq in this way: we're fed a narrative to fall in line behind rolling out the American MIC and its vultures.

The so called rebellion doesn't even have enough popular support or unity to field a fighting force with a chance in hell of winning, even if we arm them. And where exactly does that leave everyone?

It leaves the too small group of rebelling Libyans fighting a battle they can't win, the populace at large now in danger from Gaddafi AND from NATO and somewhere down the road, it leaves us funding and staffing an invasion and an occupation.

People cheering this escalation on would do well to go watch The Prime of Miss Jean Brody.

[defendandprotect]

36. Semantics? Actually these Arab nations used to all be one -- united --

And I think you know that what I was talking about in having in common with

Libya was fascism -- authoritarian control of the nation.

Libya is an uprising by the people against a dictator --

They almost immediately asked for a NFZ because Gaddafi had been armed to the teeth

by UK, France, Russia -- and USA signed a late contract with him, undelivered.

They couldn't fight against this heavy weaponry, plus his air power.

They asked for this intervention.


Did Afghanistan or Iraq ask for us to invade their countries?

But, I'm going to really be looking forward to seeing this same level of outrage against

those two wars -- and Obama's drones flying over Pakistan -- in the following days!

Certainly haven't seen it here previously!!


This is a nation of only 7 million people -- who are dying under Gaddafi's rule --

The uprising would include new citizens from towns as the protesters move on, EXCEPT that

Gaddafi has prevented this by destroying the towns, bombing them and killing his own people.


Gaddafi has actually had his mercs and forces go into hospitals to kill the wounded protesters.

That has been a longstanding effort on G's part!


There is little support for G, except those he has under threat --

This is NOT a small group of protesters and don't know where you have gotten that idea?

They are ordinary citizens -- and untrained -- and for a long time, unarmed --

later they did pick up weapons discarded by G's army as they retreated.

They are largely unarmed and unfarmiliar with war theories --

Unlike the Egyptian protesters who it seems all served in the military -- compulsory.

[defendandprotect]

29. "A man's home"? This is compound where G is holding citizens as hostages/shields ..!!

These are citizens he's been kidnapping all along --

[EFerrari]

35. Hasn't it occurred to you that bombing a compound

where political prisoners are being held is an act of incredible stupidity, on top of everything else?

[defendandprotect]

37. Hasn't the monstrous brutality of Gaddafi occurred to you yet?

This man has been torturing citizens of Libya to hold onto power -- and been

doing it for 40 years!

Not only is he torturing prisoners being held -- but he has put people in the

crudest of prisons underground - for years!

This is a man who has planted landmines against his own citizens --

a man using RAPE as a weapon of war!

As Gaddafi's personal support deteriorates -- including that of his family -- and

advisers, I trust that there will be demands that he let those he has kidnapped go.

Preferably, Gaddafi will yield to the pressures of his people -- and international

pressures -- and leave.

[EFerrari]

38. I asked very specificly if you think that bombing a holding facility

where political prisoners are being held is a good idea.

Because *that* is the very illogic in supporting the military action against Gaddafi.

[defendandprotect]

39. Of course not -- what an inane question -- HOWEVER, it seems that the attack

on the compound has come from a former army leader who has defected --

And what is the "logic" of running drones over Pakistan and killing citizens?

Or our having attacked two nations based on the lies of 9/11?

Those two wars receive very little discussion here on a daily basis -- nor

the drones!

Let's hope that Gaddafi will forgo some of his cruelest and revengeful instincts

and let these people go --

Including Iman al-Obeidi, the woman who was gang-raped by 15 of of Kaddafi's soldiers --

There's a petition up in GD to try to help her --

[Amonester]

22. "our" cities.... like they "own" them....

f*ck that (other) a-hole :puke:

[joshcryer]

41. He does think he owns them, and he's going to have one fucking hell of a time taking Misrata.

Misrata is Sarajevo all over again.