Mom Drove 3 Kids Into NY River, Surviving Son Says

[alp227]

Source: Associated Press

NEWBURGH, N.Y. (AP) — A woman who had just been involved in a domestic dispute loaded her four children into a minivan Tuesday night before letting one out and driving the rest of them into the Hudson River, firefighters said. The woman and three young children were killed.

The 10-year-old boy who had been let out of the minivan ran to a nearby fire station and alerted firefighters, Chief Michael Vatter said. The boy told firefighters his mother had driven off a boat ramp in Newburgh, about 60 miles north of New York City, and into the murky water of the river, Vatter said. Inside with her were the boy's siblings: two boys, ages 5 and 2, and an 11-month-old girl.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/04/13/us/AP-US-Familys-Minivan-River-Deaths.html

---

This article also references the Diane Schuler case from 2009 where that woman drove the wrong way on a highway, crashed, and killed several passengers and herself.

[Drunken Irishman]

1. Remember what's her fuck from Ohio (or some midwest state) that drove her kids into a lake?

Then blamed it on a black man?

Sickening and depressing. It's a shame these people are driven (no pun intended) to their wits end like that. Mental health is a major problem in this country and yet we continually ignore it.

:(

[murielm99]

2. Susan Smith

And then there was the fundie mom who drowned all her kids. I blame her husband as much, if not more than her. Andrea Yates.

There is a woman in my area who drove her kids into a river and drowned them, too. She just pushed the car off a pier. It did not get the publicity of the other cases.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. Yes...Susan Smith. And you're right about Andrea Yates...

I was put off by her husband from the start. He ignored every sign there was and is just as culpable as she was.

[mackerel]

4. Tonight I was at my wits end. I just left everyone

at home drove off to the other side of town, got out and took a nice long walk. It totally changed my perspective on everything and I was able to calmly return home.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. I've had my share of issues raising kids...

Where I've got to turn away and walk out the door to cool off before I do something I'll regret (not kill, mind you, but maybe say something really, really hurtful or throwing a shoe at 'em).

[wordpix]

21. very difficult to do as a single parent---you need a big support system

[defendandprotect]

6. Remember also that Susan Smith was a victim of incest -- among other things ...

these are people obviously suffering psychological conditions we know nothing about!

[Drunken Irishman]

7. I agree...

I mean there is something obviously going on when a mother kills her kids.

[No Elephants]

112. Yeats entire family ignored every sign, but, yes, her husband was the worst.

[theHandpuppet]

16. I believe she was from South Carolina

But thanks for just assuming it was a woman from Ohio or "some Midwest state". :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

5. An un-rec because I'd hate to see this article used to judge this woman ....

none of us know what her state of mind was --

[SkyDaddy7]

9. Yes, but you have to understand there are parents here...

those of us who can't have children through no fault of their own...Plus, when know damn well what was going through the minds of those children who went into the river & especially the 10yr old who had to tell firefighters what the Mom he looks to for protection just did!

Urec all you want the only thing you will accomplish if any is possibly preventing others from seeing a problem that everyone should see!

[defendandprotect]

10. I un-rec'd it as a CAUTION -- judging others based on so little info only adds to confusion --

and you can see that again in the Susan Smith story where the details of her

own abuse came out only at the very end --

I sympathize with your personal situation -- but lashing out at me isn't going

to solve these problems!

This does all need more discussion -- it shouldn't be a taboo subject at all --

but discussion based on some detials -- some real knowledge of what has gone on.

No one knows right now what the problems were -- we may never know.

[murielm99]

11. I guess I didn't see anything judgmental.

Right after Susan Smith was mentioned, Drunken Irishman brought up the obvious need for us to consider her mental health, and the neglect in our society toward helping people like Smith and the woman in the OP.

[defendandprotect]

30. Notice that my message was general --

not directed towards you or anyone else here --

just an overall cautioning --

and it is good to see that given what we have learned from other cases there is

that recognition that there is much we don't know of what is happening within families

and with parents.

[masmdu]

17. WTF!..I'm Judging her on what we know..She killed her children...Are you saying there is some justi

justificatioin for this? Is there any additional info that could come out that would make this excusable/understandable?

No way. No matter what details come out.

Abused. Ok...she still chose to kill her kids.
Incest. Ok...she still chose to kill her kids.
Drugs. Ok...she still...(and on, and on, and on)

[SkyDaddy7]

28. I agree! Mental issues, past abuses or whatever...

3 kids died in terror & 4th will have life long issues yet we are suppose to withhold judging the situation pending what "might" happen to this evil woman in her past? WTF!

[defendandprotect]

32. And, then what is your judgment of her?

Other than the obvious that we know she killed three of her children and herself?

Enlighten us with your wisdom -- all from this one article!

[No Elephants]

115. Evil? Good grief. Worse attitude toward insanity than 7000 years ago

At least in Biblical times, folks accepted that insane people were possessed by a demon. They did not fault the insane person for being possessed, nor did they attribute any bad things an insane person did directly to the insane person. They faulted the demon.

Seems like attitudes toward mental illness have gone bakwards, which is one reason people are too uninformed and/or ashamed to seek help or confide in anyone.

[SkyDaddy7]

123. So if she was simply killing herself & the kids as...

an act of REVENGE for her husband cheating on her would you consider her to be "evil"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ARARyt9yF8&feature=feedu

[NOLALady]

132. Maybe it was more despair

than revenge.

[defendandprotect]

31. Only YOU are suggesting anything like that -- !!!

Are you flaming the discussion sufficiently now?

[No Elephants]

114. Insanity. No one is saying deify her, but an insane person has no defense against insanity. None.

[SkyDaddy7]

27. You act as if her "possible" past abuses will somehow...

make this easier to swallow! I am all too familiar with mental issues my best friends wife just tried to kill herself last week & did suffer past abuses...However, there were 3 little kids who died in terror & a 4th who will suffer mental issues the rest of his life over this!

You may or may not intend to but you come off as if you are defending what this woman did pending her history...Past abuse or not there is no defense. We should try to allow this to help put a focus on mental issues but there is no rational way to minimize what this woman did as it appears you are trying to do...Even if she was abused as a child.

[defendandprotect]

33. "Excusable" ... ? Is there no sorrow in your soul for this woman and her children?

That's just the point -- we have no idea what happened her, except that a

tragedy has occurred.

You may or may not intend to but you come off as if you are defending what this woman did pending her history...Past abuse or not there is no defense. We should try to allow this to help put a focus on mental issues but there is no rational way to minimize what this woman did as it appears you are trying to do...Even if she was abused as a child.

Of course, I offered no "DEFENSE" of what this woman has done --

That suggestion exists solely in your mind -- if you don't understand that, then get on with

your condemnations!

[houstonintc]

44. A tragedy she inflicted!

She is the one who inflicted this tragedy.

[defendandprotect]

49. Show me someone here who is denying that -- !!

What we do know now is that she is a 25 year old mother of 4 children --

possibly suffering domestic violence --

One of the children was an 11 month old which points to the possibility of

postpartum illness --

One of the saddest things about the rise of the right is their ability to convince

so much of the public that "punishment" is the solution to everything wrong --

"Beware of those with a strong urge to punish" --


Nature has total faith in women and has give most of everything to do with children

and childbearing to women -- and it is a tremendous responsibility. That doesn't

mean that things don't go wrong occasionally -- like postpartum illness.

Or that human suffering doesn't distort human thinking --

[houstonintc]

51. No DV claims mentioned in Article...

"Police said there was no history of domestic violence at the address."

Straight from the article.

All this talk of Nature has total faith in woman vis a vis children is a crock of nonsense as far as I'm concerned. You just seem to be doing everything to deny the fact that she just fucking killed her kids it seems and took herself down as well. Add to that orphaned, unless he has a living father that is, her sole surviving child.

Domestic violence? She was a single parent. And the police have no record of that happening. You can't just make up stuff and assume excuses for this.

[defendandprotect]

53. "Domestic Dispute" at the address -- Police called --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4811908&mesg_id=4812189


All this talk of Nature has total faith in woman vis a vis children is a crock of nonsense as far as I'm concerned. You just seem to be doing everything to deny the fact that she just fucking killed her kids it seems and took herself down as well. Add to that orphaned, unless he has a living father that is, her sole surviving child.

Domestic violence? She was a single parent. And the police have no record of that happening. You can't just make up stuff and assume excuses for this.


Get on with your condemnation -- obviously you're in a rush to do it!!

Meanwhile, if you're male, you'll never be pregnant -- carry a child in your body --

breastfeed a child -- and more than likely if you're male, your children will be taken

care of by a woman --

Tell me that's not fact --


If you can slow down to show perhaps some sorrow over this rather than pre-judging this woman

maybe you'd end up with a broader understanding of it.

[houstonintc]

60. Rush? Not really,,,

But I find it a little unnerving that she is being sainted as a martyr.

Cool, as a male, my children can also be taken from me in a divorce for no other reason then I don't have the favored sex organs... what of it?

I will lay a judgement on what I see, thus far unless something more comes out, she has killed three people and herself and almost a forth if the boys account is to be believed.

Odd that there is reports of domestic dispute minutes after she decides to drown her brood... I guess if someone gets hit anywhere in the world it's a damn license to kill anyone? Whatever her life's issues are drowning and taking out several others is not just or right or even justifiable.

And back to my supposed gender, male or female we all love our kids. Maybe your of the opinion (The sexist PoS opinion IMO) that someone with a penis' can't care for their damn kids by some biological act of our creator... but it's none sense as far as I'm concerned.

[defendandprotect]

67. "She is being sainted as a martyr" -- ????? Whaaat -- ????

Cool, as a male, my children can also be taken from me in a divorce for no other reason then I don't have the favored sex organs... what of it?

And because of that you're waging a vendetta against this dead mother?


And this seems to suggest your own paranoia ...

Odd that there is reports of domestic dispute minutes after she decides to drown her brood...

and lack of reading. The police were at her home in response to the "domestic dispute" call

just about the time she was driving into the Hudson!


And back to my supposed gender, male or female we all love our kids. Maybe your of the opinion (The sexist PoS opinion IMO) that someone with a penis' can't care for their damn kids by some biological act of our creator... but it's none sense as far as I'm concerned.

Doubt you are in a frame of mind to understand anything I'm saying to you -- HOWEVER, it is not

sexist to point out that females BY NATURE have the larger role in caring for children.


Perhaps we need a bit more leveling here -- every day I read stories of males abusing women,

abusing children -- sending young males off to war and to their death and woundings --

and certainly males murdering women and murdering children. Do we need to post those every

day now in order to bring a bit of reality to this discussion?

[houstonintc]

69. Lol... Talk about sexism.. you are classic

Your pulling in this "Mother nature magic" BS into the conversation. As if I a male can't grasp this concept of loving or caring for a children. I guess I'm to damn inferior in your eyes?

Also the Huffingtonpost article is better written, the AP one is choppy and poor in detail.

sexist to point out that females BY NATURE have the larger role in caring for children.

It is, you basically writing me off that I couldn't care for my own kids simply because I have a penis. Something that if I was more PC I'd get offended by, but I will say it is a repugnant insult to me and every father in the world.

Perhaps we need a bit more leveling here -- every day I read stories of males abusing women,

abusing children -- sending young males off to war and to their death and woundings --

And I could find a thousand tales of women harming kids, hitting their male lovers and committing all sorts of horrible crimes? But you don't see me saying everything with a vagina is a lying Jezebel do you?

Nope? Maybe I should since apparently it is fair game to get an Axe to grind because some people do bad things and some of them are of a gender that isn't my own.

and certainly males murdering women and murdering children. Do we need to post those every

day now in order to bring a bit of reality to this discussion?

Let us post the stories of female murders, molesters, abusers, thieves and liars? Those who defraud, defame, and do horrible acts?

Wait that would be stupid because their vagina didn't make them do it, Criminals are criminals evil has no gender bias.

[defendandprotect]

70. 90 posts and you're already on IGNORE -- !!! Great work -- !!

[houstonintc]

71. Some ignore...

You continue to respond. I must of struck a nerve or revealed some truth.

[No Elephants]

117. Self Delete.

[LisaL]

57. She might have been a single mother, but the kids obviously

had bio dads. It appears that last three all had the same father, and the first boy had a different father. The domestic dispute appears to have been with the bio dad of the last three kids.

[houstonintc]

61. From the article...

All we can say is she was "upset" with on of the childrens fathers, the father of several of these kids does not live with them and for whatever reason she doesn't want the father around her kids.

A) Nothing in the article supports this claim that she was definitively suffering some DV.

B) A relative reported a domestic disturbance.

C) 4 people are drowned, 1 mom and 3 of her kids.

Maybe we shouldn't damn her to hell, but I won't be making a martyr or saint of her. On the evidence so far this person has committed a terrible act.

[No Elephants]

116. Who made a saint of her or said this wasn't terrible?

[SkyDaddy7]

72. I think we both agree this was beyond horrible, correct?

I think if we differ it is my first & honestly my only concern is with the children who were truly the innocent victims in all this...Especially the surviving child. As far as the woman goes it is obvious she had severe problems & who knows what her twisted logic was for killing her children...And what does it matter she killed her children & nothing can be done to change that. The only thing I would hope is maybe it will shine a brighter light on these things.

As far as your comments go I was not the only one who took issue with you seeming to be more worried about people judging this woman than fact she killed her kids! Whether that was your primary source of concern or not you made it seem that way by pointing out you un-rec'ed the article simply because people had harsh words for her. Mental issues or not she took the lives of her own children & destroyed the life of the surviving child so to expect people not to have harsh words for her is odd.

I share your concern as I think most here do that mental issues need more attention...However, like I said before unrecing the article because people had harsh words for her is why you got the push back you did as it did appear your first & main concern was with this woman's reputation & not with the fact she killed her kids. I know, or at least think I know that is not the case but you did make people wonder.

[truth2power]

14. Yes, and we should not confuse discussions of causation

with justification of the act. The two are entirely separate.

[defendandprotect]

34. Discussions of what caused this based on no information in this article ...

except the simple fact that the mother and her three children are dead

would be meaningless -- other than to express sorrow --

The only fair guess -- guess -- on this is that she was not in a sane frame of mind.

[truth2power]

43. There is nothing wrong with speculating about causes at any time...

My point is that often people don't want to talk about causes or motivations when a tragedy occurs; the thinking being that somehow it's a justification of the act.

[defendandprotect]

45. There was no info in the original article to speculate on -- except to judge --

since then we know this young woman was only 25 years of age -- with 4 children!

Domestic violence, as well --

and an 11 month old which may suggest postpartum illness --

Most of all we have to understand that we are all human -- and right now humanity

is suffering greatly --

Also that Americans have always been propagandized by our right wing to understand

little of postpartum illness -- to disbelieve it --

We are being taught by the right wing to disregard the harm their policies do --

and rather to look for punishment of those who are suffering from it.

Have to run out and hope I haven't stated this too badly or roughly --

:)

[No Elephants]

118. Please do not advance rational and excellent points. We confuse easily.

[a la izquierda]

18. She killed her kids...

I think people are kind of hoping she had a mental disease, and not that she was some evil woman. I really don't think it matters what her state of mind was. Three little kids, dead. A mom, dead.

[defendandprotect]

46. Do you have any knowledge of postpartum illness ... ?

[a la izquierda]

74. Nope, I live in a cave. It's amazing I have internet access.

[a la izquierda]

75. Nope, I live in a cave. It's amazing I have internet access.

[No Elephants]

119. It matters if you are calling her evil. Please see Replies 114 and 115.

No one would dream of saying Christopher Reeve was lazy not to have run a marathon after he became paralyzed. An insane person may be equally unable to behave any differently, yet we say it doesn't matter if a woman was insane or sane when she killed her kids?

Mind you, I am not saying she was insane. Or that she was a model mom when she was sane. Or that this is not terrible, no matter what.

[Rebubula]

19. Judge???

Hell...she killed 3 kids.

I think that I can judge her pretty easily. Her problems or mental issues - who the fuck cares? She killed 3 kids.



3 kids...dead.



You kill kids and I have no pity or concern about your mental state or anything. Period.

[defendandprotect]

36. And how do you "judge" women with postpartum illness?

Something Europeans long ago came to terms with --

and something that the rightwing here in America continues to use to

bludgeon women?

Mental issues have no effect on behavior?



http://www.womensmentalhealth.org/specialty-clinics/postpartum-psychiatric-disorders/

[houstonintc]

42. Some judgement is apt...

Unless other evidence comes to light it seems she just killed three people, her own children no less. Maybe not tar and feather her name but ... lets not ignore that.

[defendandprotect]

47. Remember, she also killed herself -- that requires a special frame of mind ...!!

We now know also that she was a 25 year old, with four children --

and likely suffering domestic violence --

She had an 11-month old which points to the possibilities of postpartum illness.

Let's not ignore any of that -

[houstonintc]

50. DV? Wait isn't she single? Also no mention...

DV, great I'm being beaten... I can now drown some kids... I am glad I will get sympathy no matter what I do as long as I have the DV card in my hand.

O wait, from the story...

"Police said there was no history of domestic violence at the address."

So where are you get this Domestic Violence claim? She was a single parent, who was this mysterious abuser? Anything to make this not on her I see.

So were do you get this Domestic Violence claim?

[defendandprotect]

62. Catch up --

The alert was called in by an aunt of Armstrong,who told police she heard "tussling" in the background. The aunt told police Armstrong had a history of domestic problems with Jean Pierre, the father of three of her children.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110413/NEWS/104130378

[houstonintc]

63. Is that DV or arguing?

So far their isn't anyone coming forward alleging this domestic violence charge.

Heard "tussling" might lend me to believe violence happened...

However DV = Drown children and self?

What were they fighting over anyway?

Also note that further in the article you cited it says:

"About 8 p.m., Lashaun Armstrong showed up at the fire station and reported that his mother had driven
their vehicle into the river. Lashaun is staying with a female relative, police said.

A downstairs neighbor on Williams Street, Jim Simeon, said a woman and her small children lived upstairs but he'd never spoken to them.

He'd often heard the sounds of children playing come through the ceiling.

"The kids play, but not fighting," Simeon said. "It's terrible."

He said he heard nothing on Tuesday night."

So what exactly is this tussle?

[defendandprotect]

65. The aunt seems to be aware of the mother's mental problems and the "tussling" --

-- and presumably there will be more to be related to the police by both

the aunt and the son --

Until then --

[houstonintc]

66. Cool beans

But until that time we have a really sketchy basis to be giving her sainthood as the poor martyr of DV and other issues.

Sorry but she just drowned three innocent children, unless more comes to light proving she didn't do that, they death is on her hand and the guilt rests with her in that act.

[defendandprotect]

68. "sketchy basis to be giving her sainthood as the poor martyr" .... WTF?

You're on IGNORE --

[Lance_Boyle]

73. Looks like one of the usual suspects is playing the IOKIYAW card.

Ignored can defend this murdering scum all it wants to - it's best for the rest of us to let ignored have its little delusion. Ignored is not educable on the matter of women sometimes being bad people.

[houstonintc]

77. Shhhhh

It's not PC to admit that evil is a human condition.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. I am forcefully reminded of an old joke about the holders of a certain mindset::

"Two social workers are walking down the street when they come upon a mugging victim.

The victim is lying in the gutter and has been beaten to a fare-thee-well. One social worker says 'This is terrible!

We have to do something!' The other one says "Yes, we need to find whoever did this. They need help badly...."

[tabasco]

76. Yeah. lots of spree killers end up killing themselves.

It requires a murderous state of mind and a suicidal state of mind. The latter doesn't mitigate the former.

[No Elephants]

113. An 11 month old baby opens the possibility of severe post-partum depression,

but it could be anything.

Four kids, one an infant, a body not yet fully recovered from pregnancy, going to school to boot and a cheating man add up to a mess in themselves. Wouldn't take much more to put someone over the edge.

[WatsonT]

125. Isn't it common to judge people based on their actions?

And I can think of many things that could justify suicide.

But not taking others with her.

[demigoddess]

12. what conditions caused her to do this? mental illness is

a possibility, but there are also societal ones, unemployment, foreclosure, lack of health care, etc, etc, etc. And the very thing that can prevent things such as this are being cut from our society. In europe they have more of these social programs and they have fewer child deaths as a result.

[d_r]

24. those aren't mutually exclusive

those stressful situations can exacerbate mental illness

[bucolic_frolic]

25. Television could have caused this:

Vehicle in River or Lake has grabbed headlines during the last 10 years. Wonder if she would have t done this without those past events in her mind?

[defendandprotect]

39. Interesting ... but we should remember that she was also killing herself ...

I think any psychiatrist would say that you have to be in a certain frame of mind

to do that -- and it isn't a sane frame of mind, that's for sure!!

Even those who would be suffering great pain -- like those in a burning building --

are making a choice they can only see as "less pain" for the moment -- but those on

the ground will still shout "Don't jump!" --

[defendandprotect]

35. +1000% ---

[global1]

13. If The Mother Let The Boy Out Of The Van And He Ran To A Nearby Fire Station......

how did he know the exact spot where the mother ran the van into the river. "The boy told firefighters that his mother had driven off a boat ramp in Newburgh, about 60 miles north of NYC, and into the murky water of the river."

[Control-Z]

15. My thinking is poor journalism

rather than questions about the child's story.

[chatnoir]

37. The article a few posts down gave more details

"CITY OF NEWBURGH — A 10-year-old boy escaped from his mother's minivan after she drove into the Hudson River with three of his siblings, drowning them Tuesday night, police said Wednesday morning.
...
At a news conference Wednesday morning, police said Armstrong's 10-year-old son, Lashaun Armstrong, opened a window of the minivan and escaped after his mother drove off a boat ramp. He worked his way to shore and then was picked up by a passer-by, who took him to the fire station nearby."

[LisaL]

56. She didn't let him out, he escaped from the minivan.

[Autumn Colors]

20. This is the town where I grew up

Article says she lived 6 blocks from where she drove off. That means she probably lived in the very WORST part of this city that has had problems with poverty (and racism) for decades and has also had a terrible gang problem of late.

I left Newburgh when I was 17 and never looked back. My family lives on the outskirts of the town. My gut says poverty was probably compounding any other issues that were going on.

[defendandprotect]

38. We often don't recognize how much of America has been reduced to GOP's "third world America" --

and, imo, we have too little insight into that --

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

29. It seems you have a very negative view of heterosexuals

Were you abused by a heterosexual as a child, or something?

[Historic NY]

23. from our local paper

<snip>
Cops, troopers and firefighters stood along the shore as the van was wenched from the dark water.

"It's a horrible sight, all of them in the car," said City of Newburgh police Chief Michael Ferrara.

Ferrara said it appears that the incident was related to an incident from earlier that evening.

Police responded to a report of a domestic dispute about 7:45 p.m. on Tuesday at 53 William St., Apt. 2.

When officers arrived at the address, however, there was no one inside. Minutes later, the 10-year-old showed up at the fire station to tell them what had happened
<snip>

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110413/NEWS/104130378

[defendandprotect]

40. Thank you -- A 25 year old Mom, children ages 5, 2 and 11 months -- in car --

and a 10 year old son --

City of Newburgh police divers found the bodies of the mother, identified as Lashandra Armstrong, 25; two boys, ages 5 and 2; and an 11-month-old girl inside the van Tuesday night.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

52. "winch" "wench" --not the same thing

[Lilyhoney]

26. My guess is Postpartum Psychosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

[Walk away]

41. +1

[defendandprotect]

48. +1

[defendandprotect]

54. Mother struggled with mental issues, stress -- "postpartum psychosis" suspected --

Lashanda Armstrong, who drowned self & kids in Hudson, struggled with mental issues, stress: experts

BY Barry Paddock
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Wednesday, April 13th 2011, 7:57 PM

"Whatever fight they had might have been the last straw in her mind," said Dr. Steven Tuber, a professor of psychology at the City College of New York who specializes in children and families.

"You're really talking about two processes that collide to create this kind of tragedy."


The alert was called in by an aunt of Armstrong,who told police she heard "tussling" in the background. The aunt told police Armstrong had a history of domestic problems with Jean Pierre, the father of three of her children.

and --

Armstrong was likely suffering postpartum psychosis, Coates believes, after the birth of her 11-month old daughter.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/04/13/2011-04-13_lashanda_armstrong_who_drowned_self__kids_in_hudson_struggled_with_mental_issues.html

[LisaL]

55. These claims appear to be based on nothing but speculation,

considering neither of these experts claim to have met her before he demise.

[defendandprotect]

58. "Experts" delivered the opinion - unlike your own speculation --

Armstrong was likely suffering postpartum psychosis, Coates believes, after the birth of her 11-month old daughter.

[LisaL]

59. Opinion? Well, if you think it's fine to diagnose someone

without ever meeting them, who am I to argue?
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

64. Did you want anyone to reach conclusions immediately? The mother is dead ...

she is needless to say not going to be able to tell them what moved her to do this.

Perhaps the young boy -- aged 10 -- can relate what might have been said in the car --

or earlier?

There are two things we seem to know -- that she had mental problems, was in a situation

of domestic violence -- and had fairly recently had a child --


There are a range of possible reasons Armstrong didn't just hurt herself, but her children too, experts said.

She may have been furious with her kids, trying to punish her husband, or even believed death was a way to protect her children.

"She could have felt the kids couldn't survive without her and would be better off in heaven," said Dr. Susan Coates, a professor in Columbia University's psychology department.

Armstrong was likely suffering postpartum psychosis, Coates believes, after the birth of her 11-month old daughter.

[friendly_iconoclast]

79. They're not the first DUer to claim telepsychological ability. n/t

Unfortunately.....

[czernobog]

80. Mental illness or not

She murdered the children. No sympathy from me. That is only on offer if you control yourself enough to refrain from such monstrous actions. And I am someone who has serious mental issues.

[Keith Bee]

81. Lashanda Armstrong, Distraught Mother, Drove Van Full Of Children Into Hudson River

Source: Huffington Post

NEWBURGH, N.Y. – Angela Gilliam called the police at 7:43 p.m. Tuesday. She was worried about her niece's well-being and said there was a domestic tussle going on at the younger woman's apartment in this hardscrabble city on New York's Hudson River. Police headed to the apartment but by the time they got there, it was empty.

Seventeen minutes later, Gilliam's grand-nephew La'Shaun Armstrong stood shivering and soaking wet in a firehouse down the street, struggling to get the words out: His mother, 25-year-old Lashanda Armstrong, had driven their minivan off a boat ramp and into the river, taking her three other children with her. All of them died.

Only 10-year-old La'Shaun survived, managing to open the driver's window and escape the van just before it slipped beneath the surface.

As the van hit the river, Lashanda Armstrong told her terrified kids, "If I'm going to die, you're going to die with me," NBC reported.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/lashanda-armstrong-distra_n_849141.html

---

Jesus. Jesus.

[sakabatou]

82. I wonder what drove her to do that to her children

Sad.

[NOLALady]

87. Maybe

In her state of mind, she didn't want them to be alone. She told the day care worker how alone she felt.

Heartbreaking.

[merh]

94. Actually, they have reported that she tried to reverse the car

she changed her mind but it was too late and the car filled with water and she and her other 3 couldn't get out.

===============================

Mom Who Drowned Family in Hudson River Tried to Back Out at Last Moment

A woman who drove her minivan into the frigid waters of the Hudson River killing herself and her three small children changed her mind at the last minute, throwing the car into reverse and admitting her mistake to her 10-year-old son who swam to safety.

~snip~

"I made a mistake, I made a terrible mistake," Armstrong told her oldest son, according to Maeve Ryan, a good Samaritan who found the soaking-wet child and brought him to a nearby firehouse.

"She tried to reverse the car out, but at that time it was too late," Ryan told the Associated Press. "He said, 'Mommy, I'm going to go get help,' and she said, 'OK.' And that was the last he heard from his mother."

~snip~

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-drowned-family-back-hudson-river/story?id=13377216

======================

It is sad, very sad.

[defendandprotect]

96. Thank you -- some say a trance-like state in suicide ... water may have shocked her out of it?

[merh]

101. The river water was very cold, in the 40's they said.

I've dived in 65 degree waters with skins and it is miserable and cold. Water like that is so cold that it is painful and the body shakes uncontrollably, you cannot do much of anything. It is amazing that boy was able to get out and swim for help.

It is just sad, she was not thinking rationally. It was not an act of evil.

[defendandprotect]

110. Good to see words of compassion ---

some yesterday wanted only condemnation and judgment --

and some think that sympathy, empathy are wrong --

[Taverner]

88. Narcissism

She felt the kids did this to her, when in fact her kids never asked to be born...

[harmonicon]

103. obviously, it was Fukushima.

No other reason for anyone to kill themselves. Just read DU.

[gateley]

107. Aren't you funny. nt

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zephie]

84. A little late... It's too bad no one caught it sooner.

[defendandprotect]

97. Budgets -- and pediatricians who perhaps now will look for signs of post-partum

illness in mothers?

[Keith Bee]

85. She's dead

No need for any kind of room at all

[Taverner]

86. Yes, I read that tragic part

Tragic because most of her kids were killed

You almost want to bring the mother back to life to kick the shit out of her for killing her kids...

[Raschel]

89. What a life ahead for the little boy who escaped. Poor baby.

[alphafemale]

95. This is going to be with him the rest of his life.

I hope he gets some good counseling so that he comes to understand nothing about this was his fault.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

91. She was just 15 when her oldest was born...

and there was barely a year between her youngest two. I can't imagine being the 25 year old single mother of 4. I also wonder if she suffered from PPD.

How heartbreaking...

[defendandprotect]

98. And suffering mental illness -- and

some kind of domestic disturbances from husband whom she wanted

barred from the apartment --

[GoddessOfGuinness]

104. Yet we can't afford mental healthcare services

:grr:

[defendandprotect]

109. Exactly -- or child care -- we were sending mothers of pre-K off to work for Minimum wage ...

with no care for their children!!

This "America" needs a huge shift in power!!

[raccoon]

124. But thank goodness we can afford 3 wars! :sarcasm: nt

[gateley]

92. I saw a snippet of her sister and brother talking about how she was hearing

voices (or something) prior do doing it, and called family up and said "I apologize if I ever did anything to hurt you".

Didn't click on the link but a news report I saw today mentioned she said "I made a mistake" but it was too late (I assume it was reported by her son who survived).

Just heartbreaking. I hate that she did that, but I hate that she was in so much pain that it made sense to her to do that. I wish she could have gotten help.

It's also heartbreaking that her family will hold themselves responsible for not "seeing" what she was going to do. Everybody suffers, and those beautiful children are lost. I hope her son is loved and cherished and heals as best as can be hoped for.

[defendandprotect]

99. +1000% -- thank you ...

for those expressions of compassion and empathy -- !!

[merh]

100. ABC reported that the van was found in reverse.

She facebooked before she left the house and after she drove into the river she changed her mind and reversed the van but it was too late as the van was filling with water. See post 13 or go to this link
for the ABC article.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-drowned-family-back-hudson-river/story?id=13377216

[GoddessOfGuinness]

105. I have a feeling her surviving son

is wise beyond his years. I hope he has a chance to be a child...

[gateley]

108. Yes - I didn't even think of that -- the chance to be a child. So sad. nt

[raccoon]

122. I hope he gets some good counseling. nt

[Omnibus]

93. That's not "distraught".

That's crazy. Evil, insane, and crazy.

[girl_interrupted]

111. Agree!

Why can't people who do things like this to their children, spare the kids and just kill themselves instead. It's sick, it's evil & it's selfish. And from what I read in the news today, she didn't let the 10 year old out, he escaped from the car before it went into the water. What a truly horrible memory that poor kid has to live with for the rest of his life. And the father isn't much better, he was arrested in February 2011, for not supervising the 2 year old, the child was found wandering around in the streets, partially dressed in wet clothing in frigid temperatures. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/woman_weeks_killed_plunge_before_KEpKPhh9ur4g7xil7mwtPK So many people want to have children and can't and these two selfish, despicable morons can and they treated them like dirt. Just pisses me off.

[mopinko]

102. depression is sneaky and horrible killer.

she had an awful tough row to hoe. people who have never suffered from depression have a hard time understanding how this all works. it is awful.
so sad to take those babies with her. i suspect she knew she would be leaving them an awful burden. hope the survivor makes it through. his row will be tougher still.

[czernobog]

121. I've been diagnosed

I've been diagnosed with depression and am currently on a cocktail of antidepressants, antipsychotics and stimulants. So, I know what it is like to be depressed and when your head just refuses to work right.

I can't find any sympathy for this woman in my heart. The children didn't have to die.

[houstonintc]

106. Nothing...

I do not see anything that could absolve this.

Whatever illness she had, I don't have much sympathy who kills innocent people... whatever your going through at the very least one owes it to the world around you to only off oneself and give others a fighting chance. If she couldn't handle life I'd have less revulsion if she had at least let the kids live and have a chance at life. Now only one survives...

Unless something big comes out, this is pretty twisted.

[mopinko]

127. you'd know nothing about her if she hadn't

she would be just one more quiet suicide. hardly tragic enough for the news media to notice.

[houstonintc]

128. Given the choice...

I'd prefer her not have had dragged her children to the grave with her.

[No Elephants]

120. Surprised to see Neanderthal attitudes toward mental illness in 2011--and among "bleeding heart

liberals," no less.

Wait, that was unfair. I have no reason to slur Neanderthals beyond s stupid cliche/stereotype.

[mopinko]

129. sad, isn't it.

i think it has a little to do with the meaning of the word mom for people, which means an awful lot of things for such a short word. but, yeah, people are awful clueless. talk about telling the barefoot to use their bootstraps.

i have kids. i have suffered depression. i know what it is like to think about doing such things. and i wasn't poor. and i wasn't single. and i wasn't alone, except in my own head. when you look back at things that made sense to you then, you know the meaning of the word black.

[houstonintc]

130. To Kill is to Kill...

I'm sure we've all had violent fantasies and felt alone.

I think the difference is most of us haven't gone and dragged several people to the grave in our fits of despair. At the end of the day, no context, no circumstance or sob story can resurrect the dead children.

Nor could it undo the images that will remain with the lone survivor.

[mopinko]

133. depression is not about 'fits of despair' it is about

a lifetime of despair. a tomb of despair. it is not about a sob story. it is about a life of nothing but sobbing, on the inside, where no one can hear you.
real depression is to 'fits of despair' what living in somolia is to having lunch at 2 instead of at noon.

[NOLALady]

131. +1000!

Unbelievable!

Depression is nothing nice. Been there.

Came out of it without meds, but hope to never have to experience that again.

[lastplace_winner]

134. judge not lest ye be judged

I definitely don't agree with what she did but I do agree with defendandprotect on some level of trying to consider her state of mind. Though this is not some lifetime movie mystery case, we only know few details. So how can we judge accurately?

Her sister admitted that she thought someone was watching her. Who says mental illness was even a factor? Perhaps she did have a stalker or someone bent on revenge through mental manipulation? There are people (bullies) skilled at this.

I would like to ask. If evidence were to come out later that someone was in fact threatening her and the kids in some way where she could tell no one or suffer an even worse fate, would you have a different opinion? Have you seen the movie "SAW"?

Yes this is reallllly stretching it but as long as ONE possibility exists, I cannot judge this woman. Because I simply do NOT know what her state of mind was and what triggered the event. I haven't followed the case and I stopped reading the posts early on, so I don't know any updates on the story. For all I know some bully was threatening to torture her or chop her kids up or something. Who really knew her life?

My heart goes out to the kids. Whether mommy was mentally ill, being stalked, or just having a bad day, I wish someone could have stepped in and saved them. And for the one that escaped, I can only hope that the trauma won't be as deep as we know it will and that he will possibly even forgive his mother.

Oh also, not that it's an excuse, but consider the women whose abusive husbands tell them that they will kill them and rape the kids when she's dead. Some people don't have good judgement and think they are saving the children. They think that murder is better than abandonment... I guess that would tie in with mental illness though...??

[NOLALady]

135. "They think that murder is better than abandonment."

I think that may possibly have been her frame of mind. From her description in the article, she was definitely not an "evil" person.