Qaddafi Forces Fire Cluster Bombs into Civilian Areas

[Bigmack]

Source: NYT

MISURATA, Libya — Military forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, who have surrounded this city and vowed to crush its anti-Qaddafi rebellion, have been firing into residential neighborhoods with heavy weapons, including cluster bombs that have been banned by much of the world and ground-to-ground rockets, according to the accounts of witnesses and survivors and physical evidence on the ground.

Such weapons, which strike large areas with a dense succession of high-explosive munitions, by their nature cannot be fired precisely, and when fired into populated areas place civilians at grave risk.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/world/africa/16libya.html?_r=1&hp&emc=na

---

Hmmm... thought we were the only people allowed to use cluster munitions and Willie Pete in civilian areas.

[EFerrari]

1. I noticed something else about this article.

It doesn't describe the opposition fighters at all. How many fighters, what are they using and where are they?

This isn't reporting, this is yet another NYTs effort to gin up a war.

[stockholmer]

11. +1

[EFerrari]

22. The Libya reporting is full of this stuff.

The New Yorker just tweeted a tribute for a cartoonist that was shot at dusk in Benghazi.

RT @tnynewsdesk: Cartoonists Honor a Fallen Libyan Street Artist http://nyr.kr/fYLhBh
25 minutes ago via HootSuite

All the cartoons in the tribute show him being killed in some way by Gaddafi.

I can't find a news report that says anything more specific than "unknown assailants". He was a gifted anti-Gaddafi muralist but there is no evidence whatsoever that he as an individual was singled out to be shot in that dusk at the height of the conflict. It could just as easily been "friendly fire", iow.

[joshcryer]

35. The accounts of his death would not in any way indicate "friendly fire."

The fact that you're so easily swayed by "doubt" shows where your biases lead.

[notesdev]

2. Pure propaganda

How are you supposed to drop a bomb when you can't keep a plane in the air?

[Shiver]

3. Bombs can be launched from the ground.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Err, not really...things that are ground launched are normally artilerly of some sort

shells, rockets, missiles, those kind of things

[happyslug]

13. Mortars drop "Bombs", Artillery fire Shot and Shell

The word "Bomb" was originally the name of a Projectile fired from a mortar and that then "Drops" behind any fortifications or natural obstruction. When airplanes started to drop explosives, the term bombs were applied to them for like mortar bombs they came almost straight down on the target.

The term "bombs" to this day include what is fired from mortars.

The largest mortar in the US inventory is 120 mm, but the Israelis use a 160 mm, and the Russians use 160 and 240mm mortars.

And article advocating the adoption of a 155mm smooth bore mortar for US use:
http://www.g2mil.com/Heavy-Mortars.htm

Libya do have 160 mm Mortars, and thus Mortar "bombs".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Army

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. American vice English usage

US Army last I checked did not call them mortar bombs

[happyslug]

38. When I was an 11C (Mortar man), we referred to them as "Rounds"

"Rounds" include the "Bomb" AND the propelling Charge, since we only had to account for each "Round", that is the term we used. When I was a 13B (Artilleryman) we used the same term (Round) for the same reason. The Charge varied in both type of support weapon depending on the fire mission, so we had to deal with excess Charges (The Excess charges were lined up next to each other then burned by the "Chief of Smoke" as we left the Firing site). Thus the term "Charge" was used the used, the term "Round" was used, but no one used the term "Bomb", "Shell" or even "Shot".

Thus the term "Bomb" is still the correct term on both sides of the Atlantic, but it is rarely used for we were liable for each "Round" (including the Charge) not just for the "Bomb", "Shell" or even "Shot". When the Round was fired, that was one way to account for the Round, If we did not fire the round we had to turn in the whole round, including the "Charge". Thus the term "Round" was used, for it included the "Charge" AND the Bomb/Shell/Shot was useless without the Charge and we had to make sure the entire "Round" was turned back in.

[EFerrari]

5. The thing is, it may be that this reporting was difficult and dangerous

to do. Chivers should get full credit for that.

But the presentation is totally propagandistic. Did the NYTs ever see a war it didn't like?

[joshcryer]

32. I think the Guardian has done a much better report.

Don't read NYT since they started limiting views.

[Fozzledick]

12. RTFA: 120mm mortar shells

[dipsydoodle]

16. Made in Spain

Components from the 120-millimeter rounds, according to their markings, were manufactured in Spain in 2007 — one year before Spain signed the international Convention on Cluster Munitions and pledged to destroy its stocks. Libya is not a signatory to the convention, while the Spanish Defense Ministry had no immediate comment. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42610762/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

US is not a signatory to the convention either.

[joshcryer]

34. Just one of many oil for arms deals that EU had with Libya.

Sad, really. Amazed the US didn't get in on that shit (the US backed out of one arms deal once the Arab Spring began).

[joshcryer]

29. It's called a mortar?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. The Soviet Grad rockets complained about are similar to the ones being fired into Israel

[dipsydoodle]

7. The only aircraft which could have dropped cluster bombs

are NATO's.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Submunition weapons are not limited to being air lauched

Artillery shells including mortars, surface launched missiles and rockets can all carry them.

[joshcryer]

28. This particular bomb is a mortar.

Nice try though.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. Do they have 'made in the USA' on them?

[orangeapple]

18. Made in Spain

why take the time to respond without reading the article, especially when the answer to your question is in the article?

[pscot]

10. How primitive

Civilized nations use predator drones.

[Poll_Blind]

14. The Israelies get a free pass too. They dropped 1.2 MILLION cluster bomblets in 2006 on Lebanon.

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

:shrug:

PB

[EFerrari]

15. And those were American made. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

17. Yes, most of them were. Israel makes their own but they went through their older US-made...

...stocks at the beginning.

PB

[joshcryer]

31. I don't believe they should be used.

I don't buy the US's justification that the bomblets aren't susceptible to secondary explosions.

[al bupp]

19. Human Rights Watch Witnesses Attack Into Residential Area

From: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/15/libya-cluster-munitions-strike-misrata

Human Rights Watch Witnesses Attack Into Residential Area
April 15, 2011

(New York) - Government forces loyal to the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, have fired cluster munitions into residential areas in the western city of Misrata, posing a grave risk to civilians, Human Rights Watch said today.

Human Rights Watch observed at least three cluster munitions explode over the el-Shawahda neighborhood in Misrata on the night of April 14, 2011. Researchers inspected the remnants of a cluster submunition and interviewed witnesses to two other apparent cluster munition strikes.

Based on the submunition inspected by Human Rights Watch, first discovered by a reporter from The New York Times, the cluster munition is a Spanish-produced MAT-120 120mm mortar projectile, which opens in mid-air and releases 21 submunitions over a wide area. Upon exploding on contact with an object, each submunition disintegrates into high-velocity fragments to attack people and releases a slug of molten metal to penetrate armored vehicles.

"It's appalling that Libya is using this weapon, especially in a residential area," said Steve Goose, arms division director at Human Rights Watch. "They pose a huge risk to civilians, both during attacks because of their indiscriminate nature and afterward because of the still-dangerous unexploded duds scattered about."

[EFerrari]

20. Will HRW also condemn the opposition forces' use of weapons

in residential areas?

Or are they still busy getting political credit for President Obama?

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/85856/the-speed-paradox

[dipsydoodle]

21. The link explains

how NYT got their information which makes the whole issue suspect given HRW's record of disinformation.

edit - forgot to say :hi:

[EFerrari]

23. It's a shame that an organization we should be able to rely upon

for its human rights mission routinely abandons that mission for political purposes. :hi:

[joshcryer]

30. I don't think there's anything political about reporting on easily verified cluster munitions.

[joshcryer]

33. Cluster munitions are in the same category as mines, they're highly indiscriminate.

I think that the opposition shouldn't use mortars either, they're only "slightly less" discriminate than cluster munitions. But I will admit that at least when a mortar lands it's going to damage the immediate area, whereas cluster munitions destroy vast swaths.

[Turborama]

25. Human Rights Watch under the bus in 3... 2... Oh, wait...

... looks like they're covered in axle grease already.

[joshcryer]

27. The vast majority of human rights organizations are ignored or debased by the usual suspects.

There's no question that cluster bombs were used.

[dipsydoodle]

36. Criticism of Human Rights Watch

The respected <1> international non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch (HRW) has been accused by critics of being influenced by United States government policy,<2> in particular in relation to reporting on Latin America;<3><4><5><6><7> ignoring anti-Semitism in Europe or being anti-Semitic;<8> biases in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict; and unfair and biased reporting of human rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia.<9><10><11> Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased against Israel<12><13><14> and that requesting or accepting donations from Saudi Arabian citizens causes it to be biased;<15> it has also been accused of unbalanced reporting against Hezbollah in Lebanon<16><17> and against Palestinian militant groups.<18>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch#Allegations_of_bias_concerning_Latin_America

'nuff said.

[Turborama]

37. No, some intro on Wikipedia which I could rewrite in 2 minutes is not enough.

Especially when you look at the ongoing massive debate that has erupted over this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch

Also, look at how poorly written the 1st part of that Wikipedia article is...

Poor research and inaccuracy

The Rupert Murdoch owner of The Times, accuses HRW of a lack of sufficient expertise to report on warfare because the organization has never hired any former members of any military or any person with expertise in warfare with the sole exception of Marc Garlasco.<26> The Times accuses HRW of overriding its own researcher who wished to rescind a factually inaccurate report accusing Israel of responsibility for the Gaza beach explosion (2006).<26>

HRW has been accused of bias in gathering evidence because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "sceptical of anyone in a uniform."<26> Robert Bernstein, founder of HRW, now accuses the organization of poor research methods, for relying on "witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers."<27>

According to The Times, HRW "does not always practice the transparency, tolerance and accountability it urges on others."<26>
The pro-Israel research institute NGO Monitor has accused HRW of "faulty methodology", "misrepresenting international law", and "promoting the BDS agenda".<28[br />
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch#Poor_research_and_inaccuracy

So, let's do a little thought experiment:

If HRW quotes civilians and "anyone in a uniform" in Afghanistan after an incident and both have contradictory testimonies, which one is it that the majority of DUers are most likely to believe?


Next, here's one of the articles the references the intro. you pasted takes us to...

The "Swiftboating" of Human Rights Watch

Posted: July 20, 2009 07:30 PM

Last week witnessed a concerted attack against the credibility of the NGO Human Rights Watch (HRW), seeking to link supposed fundraising activities in Saudi Arabia with that organization's criticism ("bias", according to its detractors) of Israeli practices in the occupied territories, also claiming HRW is soft peddling on Saudi violations. It started in a Wall Street Journal piece, the Israeli prime minister's office and spokespeople weighed in, and then AIPAC and the rightwing blogosphere got onboard. The attack on HRW has now been ratcheted up according to last week's Jerusalem Post.

The former right-wing Israeli Government Minister, Natan Sharansky (also an ex-Prisoner of Zion, President http://www.newsweek.com/2005/03/06/a-scorned-idealist.html">George W. Bush's favorite author and occupation apologist) claims that HRW "has become a tool in the hands of dictatorial regimes to fight against democracies." Ron Dermer, director of policy planning in the Israeli Prime Minister's Office adds: "We are going to dedicate time and manpower to combating these groups; we are not going to be sitting ducks in a pond for the human rights groups to shoot at us with impunity".

The apparent trigger for this assault on a group that represents the global gold standard in human rights monitoring, analysis, and advocacy, was a visit by HRW's Middle East-North Africa director, Sarah Leah Whitson, to the Saudi kingdom. I happened to find myself on a panel at The Century Foundation discussing the Middle East with Whitson just days before this storm broke -- I went back and watched tapes of that panel discussion. To accuse Whitson of being soft on the Saudis or somehow singling out Israel for criticism is quite astonishing as I'm sure you'll agree if you take ten minutes to http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=EV&pubid=258">listen to her presentation -- of that, more in a moment.

=snip=

Ms. Whitson at HRW is not rolling over, this was her response: "Please, if there is something we got wrong, if one of the incidents or attacks we described is wrong, I would love to hear it. Because the Gerald Steinbergs of this world, and I guess now the Sharanskys of this world, love to give blanket denials, love to give blanket dismissals. But let's get down to the facts and let me know, did we get the fact wrong on any of these cases."

Full article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-levy/the-swiftboating-of-human_b_241634.html

You can't have it both ways, if they are a "tool in the hands of dictatorial regimes" surely they'd be whitewashing or completely ignoring what Gaddafi was doing?

The "Swiftboating" of Human Rights Watchand "blanket denials" are exactly what I've seen happen here over the past few weeks.

[EFerrari]

39. US policy on repressive regimes is self serving and inconsistent.

So is HRW.

[Turborama]

40. As I said...

Under the bus they go. Or maybe for some, if they're being consistent, they've always been there? :shrug:

What about Amnesty International, are they next?

Amnesty's Donatella Rovera said she had found "several bomblets and canisters all over the centre of town". Mohamed said Misrata's hospitals were seeing victims of what he described as "candy bombs – something that resembles a pretty bottle. You pick it up and it explodes and kills you."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/16/libya-muammar-gaddafi

ETA, In case you haven't read it yet, here's Donatella's recent report from on the ground in Misrata: http://livewire.amnesty.org/2011/04/15/in-misratah-a-city-under-siege/">In Misratah, a city under siege


Muammar Gaddafi's official spokesman Moussa Ibrahim denies that Gaddafi's military are using them.

I'm more inclined to believe Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International's witnesses on the ground than him, thanks.




http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/15/libya-cluster-munitions-strike-misrata

BTW My support for revolutionaries against their dictators has always been and shall remain very consistent.

[joshcryer]

41. "support for revolutionaries against their dictators has always been and shall remain consistent" +1

[Turborama]

26. The Guardian: Gaddafi forces 'using cluster bombs in Misrata'

Harriet Sherwood in Tripoli
guardian.co.uk, Friday April 15 2011 22.22 BST

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have fired cluster bombs into residential areas of the besieged city of Misrata, according to witnesses.

Human Rights Watch reported that four cluster bombs exploded in the city on Thursday and Friday, and two Libyan residents of Misrata told the Guardian that they suspected the munitions were being used.

Cluster bombs, banned by most countries in the world, explode in midair, indiscriminately throwing out dozens of high-explosive bomblets which cause widespread damage and injuries over a large area. The submunitions often fail to explode on impact but detonate when stepped on or picked up.

=snip=

(HRW) said that, based on its examination of submunition found in Misrata, the bombs originated in Spain. "The cluster munition is a Spanish-produced MAT-120 120mm mortar projectile, which opens in mid-air and releases 21 submunitions over a wide area. Upon exploding on contact with an object, each submunition disintegrates into high-velocity fragments to attack people and releases a slug of molten metal to penetrate armored vehicles," it said in a statement.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/15/libya-cluster-bomb-misrata

I guess The Guardian's going to get smothered in axle grease shortly, too.

[joshcryer]

42. Here's a report from one of the reporters on the ground in Misrata, I guess he's a liar:

http://cjchivers.com/post/4667042303/more-on-the-spanish-cluster-munitions-in-libya

He's seen the munitions up close, why would he lie about it?

[Baclava]

43. War is bloody, didn't they tell the 'no-fly zone' crowd?

What? You thought this was gonna be a video game?



---------------------

White Phosphorous and Cluster Bombs in Misurata - Where is the World?

[Turborama]

44. Is that supposed to be an excuse for the use of cluster bombs?

That photo is from when the attack on Benghazi was stopped in its tracks. Here's another one...



So?

Where are the reports of phosphorous being used in Misrata?

[Baclava]

45. No - it means there is no such thing as a "clean" war. But of course a 'no-fly' zone was the answer

It doesn't really matter to the victims what they died from, does it?

"Cluster bomb" reports one day - punji sticks, napalm and flamethrowers the next. War is hell.

Bombs, mortars, missles, machine guns, tanks - - they're still dead, and the war drags on.

[Turborama]

46. Nobody said there was.

You, however, have stated: "White Phosphorous and Cluster Bombs in Misurata - Where is the World?"

Rather than more obfuscating to avoid the question, have you got at least one report on "White Phosphorous... ...in Misurata" to share with us?

[Baclava]

50. I do - but it's just a video of burned corpses, grisly stuff - - probably more fear mongering

White Phosphorus used by Gaddafi forces in Misrata - Libya

White Phosphorus used by Gaddafi forces in Misrata. Bodies of the dead are burned by the phosphorus.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=99d_1300515925&c=1

[joshcryer]

48. Surely you agree some weapons are more potent than others, right?

Granted, the firebombing in WWII did more damage and death than the atomic weapons, so I should also add that proportion is needed to be considered.

I don't agree with the US cowardly avoiding the Cluster Munitions Treaty and the Land Mind Treaty and I'm sure there are others I don't currently know of (I actually didn't know the US even used Cluster Munitions).

[classysassy]

47. Cluster bombs

I wonder where the Col. got those bombs I am sure Libya don't make them,could it be our peace loving warmongers in our country sold them to him and made a fat profit?Believing the American media is like believing there is a tooth fairy.

[Turborama]

49. Spain

Read the article in the OP and some of the replies upthread.