Accuser in Duke lacrosse case indicted on murder charge

[The Northerner]

Source: Associated Press

DURHAM, N.C. (AP) — The woman who falsely accused Duke lacrosse players of raping her is now charged with murder in her boyfriend's death.

Crystal Mangum was charged on Monday in Durham with first-degree murder and two larceny charges.

Mangum has been jailed since April 3. She was initially charged with assault with a deadly weapon in the stabbing of 46-year-old Reginald Daye. He died after nearly two weeks at a hospital.

Mangum falsely accused Duke University lacrosse players of raping her at a 2006 party at which she was hired to perform as a stripper. She's had numerous legal troubles since then.

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lacrosse/2011-04-18-duke-accuser-crystal-mangum-murder-charge_N.htm

[hlthe2b]

1. wow...

I hardly know what more to say. If true, she certainly has closed the door on herself.

[sakabatou]

2. My reaction too.

[Drale]

3. Not only is she a murderer but she is a lier as well and

she damaged a bunch of young guys reputations. I remember when that was the flavor of the month and the news media where convicting those boys before even knowing the entire story.

[plumbob]

9. Perhaps it would be good to refrain from calling someone who has not

been convicted a murderer. Was she convicted of perjury? I know that at least one of those young guys went on to work for Goldman, so there seems to be little long-term damage to them.

Seems to me you're trying to turn this into the flavor of the month, convicting her without knowing the entire story.

Or maybe since she's one of "those" people, it's quite all right to do so.

[rpannier]

14. She did lie about the Lacross team

Nowhere did the person above mention perjury.
It's irrelevant that he went on to work for Goldman Sachs as it has nothing to do with her lying about them.

[NoGOPZone]

16. Don't lies, in the strictest sense, require the intent to deceive & not simply speaking untruths? nt

[pnwmom]

83. Of course she had intent to deceive. She was trying to make money

from this.

[NoGOPZone]

120. Wha't so obvious to you wasn't obvious to those involved in the investigation.

COOPER: Our investigators who talked with her and the attorneys who talked with her over a period of time think that she may actually believe the many different stories that she has been telling.

COOPER: What I would want to say is that our investigators looked at all of the records, think she actually believed what she -- the many stories she was telling, and we made the decision based on a lot of things.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/11/cooper.transcript/

Law enforcement has no doubt she told a false story. They're not sure it was deliberate. In fact, the quotes above come very close to saying it WASN'T intentional.

[pnwmom]

128. They chose to overlook the testimony of her co-workers then.

dited on Tue Apr-19-11 01:55 AM by pnwmom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

The strip club's security officer said that Mangum told co-workers four days after the party that she was going to get money from some boys at a Duke party who had not paid her, mentioning that the boys were white. The security guard did not make a big deal of it because he felt that no one took her seriously.

[NoGOPZone]

135. Define 'overlooked'. Can it possibly be that they were aware of this

claim, and either found it lacking or not enough to prove intent on her part? Also, why do you characterize this statement as 'testimony'? The link in the article indicates the quote came from an interview the News Observer had with the security officer. Testimony, in its strictest sense, is done while under oath.

[defendandprotect]

149. She seems to be talking about money they owed her ... "hadn't paid her" ....

[pnwmom]

162. Except they did pay her, according to the other dancer. Crystal must

have wanted more.

[defendandprotect]

191. When someone says "paid" it suggests that they provided some service they

expect to be reimbursed for --

It's not the language of extortion.

[NoGOPZone]

177. Also the quote doesn't specify how she intended to get the money

Even if investigators determined the quote to be accurate, it's not a lot on which to prove intent to deceive.

[defendandprotect]

22. Sure she did -- wouldn't every downtrodden exotic dancer do the same?

All we know is that the power of $$ was on the side of the Duke boys she

accused --

This will be another Tawana Brawley case -- until some day someone commits

suicide -- or decides to talk.

[RZM]

59. We know a lot more than that

We also know that she lied. It's really pretty clear. If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

[defendandprotect]

60. Actually, not really ... a great deal was known in the Brawley case ...

and there has been one suicide in that case --


In this case, the attacks on the prosecutor - Nifong - pretty much

disrupted the case and the information --

Obviously, he didn't realize that in charging these wealthy kids he had

a tiger by the tail!

It's very unlikely that she lied --



However, note that she cannot be roused -- by security guard or police -- to move out of the car!

THE SECURITY GUARD 'DID NOT SMELL ALCOHOL ON MANGUM'S BREATH' --

but thought she might have been under the influence of other drugs.


After departureAs Roberts drove away with Mangum, the two women began to argue. Roberts pulled over and attempted to push Mangum out.<22> When that measure failed, Roberts drove Mangum to a nearby Kroger supermarket, went inside, and spoke to a security guard. She told the guard that a woman was refusing to leave her car. The guard walked to the car and asked Mangum to leave, but Mangum stayed in the vehicle. The guard said that she did not smell alcohol on Mangum's breath, but thought she might have been under the influence of other drugs. At 1:22 AM, the guard called 911 to report that Mangum refused to leave the car. Police then arrived, tried to remove Mangum from the car, and questioned her.<23>

Further ...

The police then took Mangum to the Durham Access Center, a mental-health and substance-abuse facility, for involuntary commitment. During the admission process, she claimed that she had been raped prior to her arrival.<24> Mangum was transferred to Duke University Medical Center and received treatment for genital injuries, but it was unclear whether or not these injuries were consistent with rape. There were no abrasions, tears, or bleeding in the vaginal area, but investigators did find swelling in the vaginal area, along with tenderness in Mangum's breasts and lower-right quadrant. There was no blunt-force trauma, but Mangum had two non-bleeding scratches on her right knee and a non-bleeding scratch on her right heel.

This is a "substance-abuse facility" -- do we have any info on a blood test having been taken

which would tell us what she had in her system?

At Duke University Medical Center she receives treatment for "genital injuries" -

they did find "swelling" in the vaginal area -

NOTE: NO REPORT ON RECTAL AREA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case#After_d...


MEANWHILE ....

During Nifong's ethics trial on June 14, 2007, the complete DNA findings were revealed during Brad Bannon's testimony. It revealed, according to conservative estimates,

that the lab had discovered at least two unidentified males' DNA in Mangum's pubic region;

at least two unidentified males' DNA in her rectum;

at least four to five unidentified males' DNA on her panties;


and at least one identified male's DNA in her vagina.<45>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

[RZM]

62. Believe what you want

But you're in a pretty exclusive club at this point.

[defendandprotect]

63. Same for you ...

[RZM]

64. Except for the 'exclusive club' part

I'm confident in claiming that most people who followed the case would agree with me that she lied.

[defendandprotect]

67. I've seen no signs ...

that you have "followed the case" --

If there is an "exclusive club" it is certainly the wealthy of Duke!

[RZM]

74. I probably didn't follow it as closely as you did

But that doesn't mean I'm wrong nor does it mean that you're right.

I don't think that she told the truth about what happened that evening. I don't think she was sexually assaulted by any Duke lacrosse players.

Were some of them behaving like assholes? Probably. Would I like them all if I got to know them? Perhaps not. But I don't think they committed rape.

I think what's drove Magnum's defenders both then and now is a desire for the events of that evening to neatly correspond with how they believe the world works. If you believe that men oppress women, whites oppress blacks, the rich oppress the poor, and the many oppress the few, then I can see the temptation to draw certain conclusions in this situation.

The problem is that those are trends . . . they are not iron-clad rules that manifest themselves in every possible circumstance.

[defendandprotect]

75. But from what you are aware of ....

For instance --

Any theories on this ... ?


During Nifong's ethics trial on June 14, 2007, the complete DNA findings were revealed during Brad Bannon's testimony. It revealed, according to conservative estimates,

that the lab had discovered at least two unidentified males' DNA in Mangum's pubic region;

at least two unidentified males' DNA in her rectum;

at least four to five unidentified males' DNA on her panties;


and at least one identified male's DNA in her vagina.<45>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case



:eyes:

[RZM]

77. 'Unidentified male' means 'unidentified male.' It does not mean 'Duke lacrosse player.'

I don't have much of an opinion at all on that.

[defendandprotect]

79. And besides that ...

even given the presence of that DNA -- and presume they could say roughly

how old it was --

there is also the possibility that a condom/s was used -- therefore, no DNA.

Time will tell --

[LisaL]

80. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

The only thing time will tell is whether Mangum will be convicted for murder.

[pnwmom]

90. SHE said no condom was used. But you know better, right?

Time has already told everything that will be told about the lacrosse case -- at least, in terms of the students' innocence. And Mangum herself is providing the end to this story.

[defendandprotect]

142. Not aware of that -- will look for it next time I'm checking info on this --

[pnwmom]

163. And when you do, you'll find out that that was another Nifong lie,

telling the media that "maybe" the students all used condoms, when he knew that Crystal, in her statements, denied this.

[defendandprotect]

192. Again, I'll have to drag up info on that -- as I recall there was confusion about it ...

you're saying it was "Nifong's lie" --

I'll check when I can --

[pnwmom]

251. The only confusion arose from Nifong's false statement.

He knew that there was no lab evidence that a condom had been used, and that she also denied that condoms had been used.

[pnwmom]

89. Right. In fact, it excludes the lacrosse players.

They are the only men who definitely did not have sexual contact with Mangum.

[defendandprotect]

144. Not entirely ....

If I recall correctly, from recovered fingernails, evidently there was some match

to one of the players -- however, the argument was made that this could have been

a case of contamination from other articles in the bathroom garbage can.

[pnwmom]

164. It was a "partial match" that wasn't enough to link him

because it was PARTIAL and likely due to contamination. When REAL scientists (as opposed to people who conspire with Nifong) examine DNA evidence, they are extremely careful to exclude evidence that has been contaminated, such as items in a waste basket in a defendant's own bathroom.

[LisaL]

78. Is it really that difficult to figure that one out?

[pnwmom]

88. She gave "performances" to strange men in their hotel rooms. For money.

She had a "driver" who took her to these "performances" and waited in the car.

Use your imagination.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

145. And these Duke players hired her -- !!! But they complained that they had wanted white girls!!

Are Johns really superior to prostitutes? Is that the argument you want to make?

[tammywammy]

148. You're the one wondering how she had 5 unidentified males DNA on her

It's because she was an escort. All the white members of the lacrosse team gave DNA samples. That unidentified male DNA wasn't from any lacrosse member NOR her boyfriend.

[defendandprotect]

151. Why wouldn't anyone wonder -- in which case it would be important to

know the age of the sperm -- its viability.

Also, don't see anything on blood tests for this woman -- yet big question as to

whether she was in a drugged state.

Also, presume they checked whatever was on her person -- any kind of drugs?

[tammywammy]

152. She admitted to taking drugs and drinking before arriving at the Duke house

"Police notes also indicate the the accuser said she had one or two large-size beers before the party and had taken Flexeril, a muscle relaxant, which might have contributed to her inebriated condition later when officers first encountered her and thought she was drunk."

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1092027/

[defendandprotect]

181. You've submitted this article in defense of the players?

Two New York Times reporters reviewed more than 1,800 pages of evidence that Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong turned over to lawyers representing the three players. Although the reporters found inconsistencies and gaps in the prosecution's case, they said notes taken by Sgt. Mark Gottlieb are part of "a body of evidence to support (Nifong's) decision to take the matter to a jury."

A 27-year-old North Carolina Central University student told police that three lacrosse players beat and raped her during a March 13 team party at an off-campus house, where she was performing as a stripper. Dave Evans, who graduated from Duke in May, and juniors Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty have been charged with kidnapping, rape and sexual offense in the case.

Also a reminder that ROLLING STONE spent some time at Duke interviewing students -- not a

flattering picture by any means. I'll resurrect it, but as I recall there were amazing

levels of poor self-esteem among the females often willing to sacrifice their dignity and

humanity to males on campus.

Defense attorneys have argued that written medical reports don't support the rape allegation. But a nurse's oral description of injuries the night of the alleged attack are consistent with a rape, and Gottlieb wrote that the accuser appeared to be in extreme pain when he interviewed her two days later and that signs of bruises were emerging, the Times reported.

The defense also has argued that the accuser gave different versions of the events of March 13. However, the files show that aside from two brief early conversations with the police, she gave largely consistent accounts of being raped by three men in a bathroom, the Times reported.


Meanwhile, can't repeat any more of the article verbatim, however --

Gottleib's notes back up Magnum's description of those she accused.

Agree, Magnum had two large beers before the party - but how long before?

And is Flexeril something that dancer's take? Prescription drug?

But, take exception to this . .

"which might have contributed to her inebriated condition later when officers first encountered her and thought she was drunk."

Rather, they smelled no alcohol on her breath -- and thought she was drugged. That's why they

took her first to a drug-abuse facility.

Otoh ... Gottlieb took "few handwritten notes" -- and his chronological entries were made "from

memory" and "notes made by other officers"

[tammywammy]

195. Would an actual court document help you out?

http://www.newsobserver.com/content/media/2007/10/5/20071005_laxlawsuit.pdf

"While at Duke Medical Center, Mangum claimed that she had been taking the
muscle relaxant Flexeril and had had one drink earlier in the evening. At UNC
Medical Center, however, Mangum stated that she was taking other prescription
drugs in addition to Flexeril and was very drunk at the party"

Also you can review the AG's report here: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/final-duke-rape-report-issued

[defendandprotect]

209. The NY Times reviewed the 1,800 pages of evidence and concluded differently ...

which is what I reported to you, based on the article YOU gave me!!

Is there anything in particular that you are pointing to in this AGs report?


APRIL 27--Two weeks after exonerating a trio of men charged in the Duke lacrosse case, North Carolina prosecutors today released a report detailing numerous 'self contradictions' on the accuser's part as well aother investigative deficienciesin the case that led them to drop all criminal charges. The 'Summary of Conclusions' report, a copy of which you'll find below, was released this morning by North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper, who took control of the Duke case from Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong, whose handling of the matter has resulted in the []b]filing of disciplinary charges against him. One portion of Cooper's report addresses 'credibility issues' on the part of adult dancer Crystal Mangum, who leveled rape charges against the three Duke students. In another section of the document, Cooper describes recent interviews with an erratic Mangum during which she made several new claims that were contradicted by 'photographic, documentary, and testimonial evidence.' Additionally, during an April 4 meeting with investigators, Mangum (pictured in the above mug shot) 'demonstrated unsteady gait, slurred speech' and other mannerisms consistent with her behavior on the night of the purported assault. The report notes that prosecutors confirmed that prior to her meeting with investigators, Mangum took several prescription drugs, including methadone; the sedative Ambien; and Paxil, an antidepressant. (21 pages)

>>> NY Times reviewed the same evidence and concluded differently on same points --

Presumably there is a more lengthy report which may go into the "other investigative deficiencies"
but the NY Times also contradicts that.

As for the "recent interviews" with Mangum trust they might have been taped? Would be interesting

to see them - and to understand what "several new claims" were made -- and who determined they

were "contradictions of photographic, documentary, and testimonial evidence." Trust all of this

was made public?

The "drugs" Mangum was taking then and earlier all seem to be LEGAL prescription drugs --

and given her 'demonstrated unsteady gait, slurred speech' and other mannerisms consistent with

her behavior on the night of the purported assault" in Cooper's opinion . . .

would this condition not have made her vulnerable to any aggression towards her?

I'll save the links -- thanks!

[tammywammy]

212. "other investigative deficiencies"

page 20
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/final-duke-rape-report-issued

No DNA
No medical evidence
No witnesses to confirm her story
Witness' story changes significantly

Read the AG's report, it goes over all her various versions of that night.

And the witnesses stated she was "stumbling and unsteady when she arrived" pg 5 & pg 14

[defendandprotect]

241. You do not require DNA to accuse someone of rape --

The medical evidence can be considered to suggest she was raped --

The woman who was with her at one point also suggested she was away from her

view for a time during which this incident could have occurred -- and then she

retracted it.

NY Times read the accounts and said they found her original information consistent.

Let's be honest -- the NY Times seems to have placed its bets on the underdog here --

while the AG was obviously propelled into action by a rightwing Senator, if I recall

correctly.

Granted -- I think the fact that Nifong was left to handle this case is what created

this "fiasco."

Had he in all of this time met with her -- or had it been reported to him how unstable

she was -- I doubt they would have gone as far with it as they did.

Obviously, she was not going to be a witness who could withstand a few days of court

appearances and be believable.

[pnwmom]

252. The NYTimes has since acknowledged that they weren't given

access to all the evidence. They wrote that report several months before all the facts finally came out.

The AG was propelled into action by the growing amount of facts that had been introduced into evidence -- bank photos, cell phone records, the other dancer's testimony, and even Crystal's own increasingly contradictory accounts. By the time the AG got involved, the tide of educated opinion had already begun to turn.

[pnwmom]

213. The NYTimes did NOT review the same evidence in August

because much of the evidence had been withheld and didn't become available till several months later. The NY Times only had access to the limited evidence that Nifong wanted it to see. Just because he gave them a ton of pages didn't mean he gave them all the important evidence that he had.

Yes, Mangum appears to have been taking a bunch of legal drugs. And, yes, that could make anyone vulnerable. But there is ZERO evidence that any of the students were involved in any kind of an attack on her. Even the other dancer wouldn't support Mangum's story.

[defendandprotect]

242. Agree with that -- however, you do not require DNA evidence for rape --

The other dancer did suggest that Crystal was out of her view for a period of time --

and perhaps more -- would have to review old files to dig that up -- but later she

retracted it. Obviously, there was a lot of force upon these women to retract.

[pnwmom]

166. There is no question she was in a drugged state -- of her own making.

Along with drinking about 48 ounces of beer in the half hour or so before her arrival, she acknowledged taking Flexeril, a muscle relaxant that interacts with alcohol.

What is the relevance of the age of the sperm? None of the sperm was linked to any of the 46 Duke students.

She also acknowledged "performing" in a man's hotel room that day, using a vibrator. Yet another reason, besides the multiple DNA's, why she had a little vaginal "swelling."

[defendandprotect]

182. Well, she certainly WALKED in with no problems -- but coming out was something quite different --

We can assume that the muscle relaxant she took caused the deterioration --

but there are other possibilities.

I'll take your info that she took this beer and muscle relaxant A HALF HOUR before her

arrival. But again, she walked in -- and was seen by the neighbor across the street

standing between the houses talking -- she was not swaying or in any obvious way drunk

or drugged. Yet, her departure is quite different.

What is the relevance of the age of the sperm? None of the sperm was linked to any of the 46 Duke students.

Obviously, to know whether it was sperm deposited during the evening -- or something she might

have arrived with in her body cavities.

She also acknowledged "performing" in a man's hotel room that day, using a vibrator. Yet another reason, besides the multiple DNA's, why she had a little vaginal "swelling."

Well, vibrators don't deliver sperm/DNA --

and, I'll have to check the Wiki article -- or medical report -- but don't think it was

written up as "a little" vaginal swelling. Nor do I think that a vibrator would create any

swelling that lasted into the late evening or even early morning hours -- !

[pnwmom]

223. Don't you know how alcohol is processed in the body?

Do you really not understand that there is a lag between the time of drinking a lot of alcohol and when the alcohol goes through your digestive organs and into your bloodstream? And that you only appear drunk after enough alcohol has entered your bloodstream? That is why it makes perfect sense that she could have arrived and appeared to be sober, and left appearing drunk.

The sperm did not belong to any of the men who were present at the party. You can imagine that there were "other" men somehow there, but there is absolutely no evidence of that.

She had no bruising, according to the medical report, only a small amount of vaginal swelling. And, no, vibrators don't deliver sperm or DNA. But men who pay for escort services in hotel rooms often do -- and the presence of a vibrator wouldn't inhibit them. And her "boyfriend" did take her to "perform" in a hotel room for a man earlier that day.

[pnwmom]

165. They obviously were incredibly naive and didn't know who they were hiring. n/t

[defendandprotect]

180. These fraternity boys were "naive"? Didn't they previously hire exotic dancers?

[jeff47]

118. Because there's no other possible source for that DNA

From the same Wiki article:

"27-year-old Crystal Gail Mangum,<1><13><14> a student at North Carolina Central University,<1> had been working part-time for about two months as an escort<4> and stripper for Allure Escort Service. (Early claims that Mangum had only recently taken up this line of work and that the party was "the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group"<15> were incorrect; Mangum was working at strip clubs at least as far back as her 2002 arrest"

Hrm...working as an escort...wonder where DNA might have come from....

Also:

"Shortly after the party, the prosecution ordered 46 of the 47 team members to provide DNA samples (the only black member of the team was exempt since Mangum had stated that her attackers were white), though some members had been absent from the party. The players gave cheek swabs and statements to the police the day after the party."

So, since they had the team's DNA, the fact that the samples were 'unidentified' clears the team.

So what, exactly, are you accusing the Duke team of?

[defendandprotect]

146. No other male or males may have visited the fraternity house that night?

Presumably they also made some determination of the age of the sperm in her

vagina and rectum --

I'd also like to know what they found in her system -- alcohol/drugs?

[tammywammy]

150. Alcohol and drugs that she admitted SHE TOOK before she arrived there.

All the white members of the lacrosse team willingly gave DNA samples. None of their DNA was found on her. Those are the people she accused of rape, their DNA was not found on her.

I am absolutely dumbfounded how you continue to defend her. Falsely accusing someone of rape is despicable.

[defendandprotect]

153. Whatever she said she took, obviously there had to have been blood tests --

especially that she was found in what appeared to be a "drugged" state --

and was taken originally to a clinic which dealt with drug-related problems.

However, the DNA from her fingernails found in the garbage did provide some

connection to one of the players --

though the argument was made that there could have been cross-contamination

from articles in the garbage.

[tammywammy]

154. And yet still, none of the DNA in her vagina or anus matched any of the men she accused.

The DNA on the fingernail wasn't even on the underside, it was on the top of the fingernail, so cross-contamination from other items in the trash can is highly likely.

[defendandprotect]

179. True --

as we both agree.

If there is one thing that this woman would have understood in a very

concrete way, it would have been that she wielded very little -- or no power --

in the community where she made these charges -- and vs the students she accused.

The very fact that she ended up as an "exotic dancer" and in the "escort" business

would have been daily evidence of that for her.

The very "ungentlemanly" behavior exhibited towards her and her companion "dancer"

pre-the charges also would suggest that they were sending a very clear message of

their racism to her -- and where the power was.

Unfortunately, past history -- especially with male athletes -- of rape and gang rapes

echoes through this case -- and what we have learned is that very often these very

prominent and popular guys prey on the most defenseless of females. And, if they aren't

already defenseless enough, often drugs are used to make them so.

That this case may be an exception and counter to the patterns we've seen -- so be it.

Time will tell.

[pnwmom]

256. Time has told. The clock ran out on this one long ago.

All the wishful thinking in the world won't make Crystal's story -- any of her stories -- true.

[pnwmom]

168. Yes, there were toxicology tests, showing that she had drugs

in her system. And she was an acknowledged drug user. So what?

And the tiny bit of DNA that may or may not have been linked to a student -- too little DNA for a positive match -- was found in a garbage with other materials touched by students. So it couldn't be used as evidence at all, precisely because contamination couldn't be ruled out (in fact was likely.)

[defendandprotect]

188. I'll look for the toxicology report next time I have a chance ...

and we all pretty much agree, the fingernail could very likely have been a

contamination picked up in the garbage can --

[pnwmom]

167. Oh yeah, right. Now the culprits must have been OTHER Duke students.

You will go to any extreme to excuse this woman.

In one story, she had five attackers. In another, three attackers. In another story, she had 20 attackers! And those evil Duke students were raping her orally, anally, and vaginally all while she was suspended in the air in this teeny bathroom. And they didn't use condoms but they didn't leave any DNA -- either inside her body or on her clothes.

If you had really informed yourself about this case, rather than just repeating Nifong lies, you would have figured out long ago that this case never made one bit of sense.

[defendandprotect]

193. Come on ... when someone states "there is no possible other source for the DNA" ...

the possibility wouldn't come to mind of someone other than the Lacrosse players

being at the party that night?

The reports -- as confirmed by NY Times -- say her statement was consisent --

Well -- someone left DNA -- that's for sure.

Obviously, we have to right now crown you queen of "informed" --

Again -- time will tell.

[pnwmom]

257. Why do you keep mentioning an August report by the NY Times

when her stories continued to change after that date? When the documents in August were incomplete even then?

The NYTimes has since discredited their own report. They did an abysmal job of reporting this case.

Yes, someone left DNA, that's for sure. Five someone's. Most likely , considering her job as an escort, they were men who paid to leave some DNA with her.

[tammywammy]

269. Read the damn AG report.

She was not consistent. Yes, she had DNA on her, because she was with 'customers' earlier that day and had intercourse with her boyfriend.

She said the attackers did not wear a condom, that they ejaculated in her anally and vaginally and yet ZERO DNA from her accused attackers or ANY of the lacrosse members were actually on her. The DNA didn't match because she was lying. How do you not get that she lied?

[jeff47]

236. First, once can not determine the age of sperm.

Second, she admitted that she had been 'working' that day. She 'entertained' clients at a local hotel before the party.

The Duke kids didn't do this. Again, what exactly is your beef with Duke students? You are ignoring all the evidence to cling to the idea that someone from Duke did something wrong.

[pnwmom]

87. Well I did. And you are right. The evidence was overwhelming

that, not only were the students innocent, but the "crime" never occurred at all.

[pnwmom]

86. Anyone who followed the case closely and is capable of logical reasoning

knows that it is impossible that the crime she described ever occurred, and that the students she accused were completely innocent.

[pnwmom]

85. None of the DNA belonged to any of the Duke students.

And the evidence demonstrated not just their lack of guilt, but their clear INNOCENCE. The "crime" that she described simply could not have occurred.

[pnwmom]

84. She had most of the media, Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton

on her side.

Thanks to their good, and expensive, attorneys, the Duke students were able to demonstrate their complete innocence. Without that representation her LIES could have sent them to prison for decades.

No one deciding to "talk" is ever going to change the fact that she lied and the students were innocent.

[NoGOPZone]

122. Sharpton had little involvement in this case, mainly because Mangum herself

refused to meet with him.

[pnwmom]

169. Well he certainly jumped on board with a flurry.

But he apparently was smart enough to realize that he was on a sinking ship.

[nolabear]

15. How do you know that there was no long term damage done?

Just because he works for Goldman doesn't mean he doesn't suffer. So you're doing it, too. "Those people" just depends on whom you choose to disparage.

Btw I feel prettty rotten for all involved. This kind of thing doesn't come out of a happy life.

[plumbob]

20. How do you know there was? As you know, a negative cannot be proven.

That leaves the burden of proof on showing damage.

Next?

[XemaSab]

70. So one of them went to work for Goldman. BFD.

If a person survived a horrific plane crash and retired in the south of France, does that mean that the plane crash wasn't a horrible incident?

This seems to be what you're implying.

[plumbob]

111. I am saying exactly that - it had no negative effect on their life.

Or is retiring in the south of France bad, and did or did not the crash happen?

[pnwmom]

134. Except for millions in legal bills that their families owe,

almost a year of their lives lost to the trial, and the disruptions due to changing schools. But the worst thing was spending a year in fear that they'd end up in prison for decades based on trumped up charges. That kind of psychological trauma can't help but have a negative effect.

[defendandprotect]

194. Agree -- the families and these students deserve consideration and respect for

what they went through --

And, possibly they do still owe millions for lawyering, but thought that the schools/

students raised money for the defense and hiring of Bob Bennett?

Someone posted something like that -- will try to find it and reread it --

HERE ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4818686&mesg_id=4819407

[pnwmom]

91. ONE went to work for Goldman, and this proves that NONE of them were traumatized?

It cost them over a million dollars in attorney's fees, and I don't see any of them making millions on this, do you? None of them hired publicists, like she did -- even though they probably could have made lots of money on the lecture circuit.

Yes, she's one of "those people": those people being people with long rap sheets and histories of violence (remember the fire-setting that also involved her boyfriend) who FINALLY face the consequences of their actions.

[plumbob]

112. Perhaps you missed the hiring of Bob Bennett

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2406672

Duke boosters, families hire ex-Clinton lawyer

DURHAM, N.C. -- A small group of boosters and others close to the Duke University lacrosse team have hired President Clinton's former lawyer as part of an aggressive public relations effort to argue that the players did not sexually assault a woman at an off-campus party.

Bob Bennett, a former federal prosecutor and Washington attorney who represented Clinton in the Paula Jones sexual harassment case, is serving as a spokesman for a group calling itself the Committee for Fairness to Duke Families.

[pnwmom]

129. He was hired to help free them from false charges, NOT TO MAKE THEM RICH.

Unlike Mangum, who was looking for a pay-off.

[plumbob]

141. Funny, I thought lawyers were for that.

Well, have a nice life defending your relatives or friends or idols or whatever they are to you. You are not answering any of the points I've brought up, so I must wish you a fond adieu and a sincere wish that you get everything you've got coming. TTFN

[pnwmom]

160. The lawyers give credit to the media for helping the facts of this case

to see light. They played a critical role since the prosecutor was withholding exculpatory evidence.

I realize your mind is closed, but have been answering for the sake of any viewer who is actually interested in the truth.

[defendandprotect]

186. Agree: Think it is helpful and important that we all keep trying to answer

as best we can -- even when minds seem closed which makes it more difficult -- !!

:)

[defendandprotect]

185. Come on -- Bennett is HEAVY DUTY lawyering -- !!!

[pnwmom]

215. So? When you're facing a lying, cheating prosecutor

who is withholding important evidence, you need the best lawyer you can possibly get.

[defendandprotect]

246. Bob Bennett is not only a lawyer he is a political influence --

[pnwmom]

258. That was fortunate. Otherwise Crystal's lies might not have been caught

in time to prevent three young men from having been falsely imprisoned.

[defendandprotect]

279. Just pointing out that not everyone gets a Bob Bennet --

As I've said before, I don't think Nifong was competent to handle this case --

beginning with the pictures shown to Crystal without "dummy photos" being used --

and the fact that in 6 months he still hadn't interviewed her.

When there was finally an interview by Cooper -- think it was Cooper -- it becomes

clear that she isn't going to make a viable witness.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

117. "... there seems to be little long-term damage to them."

You should try being falsely accused of something. Then tell us how much you liked it.

Oh, there's the small matter of the legal bills too. Where, please, do the families of the falsely accused players go for reimbursement?

[WatsonT]

121. Yeah, sure would be a shame if we jumped to conclusions without all the facts

and besmirched her good name.

[laureloak]

231. Legal bills in excess of $1 million is NOT long term damage?

Get real.

[NotThisTime]

157. I agree, this woman victimizes men, period. She should have been locked up for false reports and

arrests in the case of the Duke Players.

[defendandprotect]

187. Now prostitutes "victimize" men? Thought it was the other way around -- !!

[LisaL]

205. Well Mangum is accused of killing one.

[pnwmom]

226. No, "prostitutes" don't. But Crystal did.

Crystal put three students through hell for almost a year, and now she's apparently "victimized" her boyfriend, too -- with a knife.

[defendandprotect]

245. And you were there and you know -- unquestionably?

Certainly Crystal has not profited in any way -- in fact, some suggest

she was greatly hurt also by the events and aftermath.


However, I think the other poster's comments are quite telling of how males

trick themselves into believing they ARE victimized by prostitutes when actually

it is the other way around.


As for this attack on her boyfriend, would expect that Crystal will be found guilty of that crime --

[pnwmom]

248. The point is that she lied, and kept up those lies for almost a year,

and didn't care who she hurt with her lies.

If she hurt herself in the process, so be it.

[defendandprotect]

280. There is no way to know that she "lied" -- unless you were there -- were you?

If Crystal was assaulted in some way that evening -- and we certainly do not

have a clear record of what happened -- then she has not lied.

Neither one of us was there that evening --

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

4. She does have a great name. nt

[Faygo Kid]

5. -1.

Not funny.

[Champion Jack]

6. She should run for office as a republican

she has all the qualifications...

[Rage for Order]

7. She should have been in prison for arson and falsely accusing people of rape

This murder would never have happened if this piece of trash had been in prison where she belongs.

[plumbob]

10. Wow, she has not been convicted of anything, but you brand her a

murderer, arsonists, and perjurer?

Amazing to read this on a progressive blog.

[Rage for Order]

23. She most certainly has been convicted

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7068705/

Duke lacrosse accuser charged with attempted murder, arson

Posted: February 18, 2010

Durham police early Thursday arrested the woman who four years ago falsely accused three Duke University lacrosse players of raping her. Crystal Mangum assaulted her boyfriend, set his clothes on fire in a bathtub and threatened to stab him, investigators said.

Police charged her with attempted first-degree murder, five counts of arson, assault and battery, communicating threats, three counts of misdemeanor child abuse, injury to personal property, identity theft and resisting a public officer.

Shortly after 11:30 p.m. Wednesday, police received a 911 call about a domestic dispute at 2220 Lincoln St. Authorities said they believe the call came from one of the three children inside the house.

When officers arrived, they found Mangum and her boyfriend, Milton Walker, 33, fighting. According to police documents, Mangum scratched, punched and threw objects at Walker and told him, "I'm going to stab you, (expletive)!" She then went into a bathroom and set his clothes on fire in the bathtub, police said. Officers called the fire department to put out the flames. No one was injured.

Milton was not charged, police said. The three children inside the house, ages 3, 9 and 10, were not injured.

She threatened to stab her boyfriend in 2010, and then she did stab her boyfriend last week.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/04/18/1138586/crystal-mangum-indicted-for-boyfriends.html

A grand jury has indicted Crystal Mangum in the murder of her boyfriend Reginald Daye.

She was accused of stabbing her boyfriend, Reginald Daye, during an argument. Police were dispatched to 3507 Century Oaks Drive at 3:15 a.m. April 3, and found Daye stabbed in the torso. Daye, 46, died last Wednesday at Duke Hospital, police spokeswoman Kammie Michael has said.

Mangum, the woman at the center of the Duke University lacrosse scandal five years ago, is in the Durham County jail. She originally faced a charge of assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill inflicting serious injury. Her bail is set at $300,000.
Quantcast

Five years ago, Mangum accused members of the Duke lacrosse team of sexually assaulting her while she was working as a stripper for an escort service. The accusations were eventually labeled as false, and the case was dismissed by state Attorney General Roy Cooper. The case garnered nationwide attention

Mangum made headlines again last year when Durham police charged her with felony arson, child abuse, vandalism and resisting a law-enforcement officer.

Mangum was convicted of child abuse, vandalism and resisting an officer.

Her rape allegation was proven to be nothing but a pack of lies, and she was convicted of 3 crimes just 1 year ago in another case. Who knows why they didn't charge her with a felony for trying to frame the Duke Lacrosse players; maybe they thought the poor woman had been through enough already.

:eyes:

[LisaL]

32. Unfortunately the jury deadlocked on arson, which was a most

serious charge that could have put her away for years. It sure seems to me like she keeps getting one brake after another in the city of Durham, NC. And now her boyfriend is dead.

[Rage for Order]

35. She should have gone to prison for the false rape allegations

She should have gone to prison for the same number of years as the men she accused of rape would have served if they had been convicted based on her lies. Had that happened then she wouldn't have been arrested in 2010, and her most recent boyfriend wouldn't be dead because she would have already been in prison. She is a prime example of the total failure of the justice system to do its job.

[plumbob]

40. Deadlock = no conviction, yes?

She does seem to be one of those lucky ducks that things work out very well for, just as Barbara Bush noted about another fortunate group, doesn't she?

[pnwmom]

130. 5 convictions for misdemeanors in the same altercation. n/t

[plumbob]

39. murderer, arsonists, and perjurer?

Seems to me that child abuse, vandalism, and resisting an officer are not at all related to these earlier names. Are they related to the lacrosse players? Child abuse? I had no idea they were THAT young; vandalism? What, she left the heel of her shoe in their spotless living quarters? Resisting an officer? Again, no idea that any of the players were officers.

Or perhaps my original statement was correct: she has been convicted of nothing related to any lacrosse players, nor as a murderer, arsonist, or perjurer to anyone at all.

[LisaL]

44. She was never prosecuted for anything related to the lacrosse

case, because AG Cooper has decided she believed the stories she told. But that is neither here nor there.

[Rage for Order]

55. LOL. Defend her all you want

You're right, Crystal Mangum is innocent, and OJ Simpson will resume his search for the "real killers" when he gets out of prison. You and the Gang of 88 can have her. Interesting side note: the Gang of 88 has tried to remove their original statement from the internet; fortunately it was captured in photos, caches, and text versions for posterity's sake. I've copied the full text of their statement below so you can stand with them in solidarity!

:rofl:

?force=1

We are listening to our students. We’re also listening to the Durham community, to Duke staff, and to each other. Regardless of the results of the police investigation, what is apparent everyday now is the anger and fear of many students who know themselves to be objects of racism and sexism, who see illuminated in this moment’s extraordinary spotlight what they live with everyday. They know that it isn’t just Duke, it isn’t everybody, and it isn’t just individuals making this disaster.

But it is a disaster nonetheless.

These students are shouting and whispering about what happened to this young woman and to themselves.

. . .We want the absence of terror. But we don’t really know what that means . . . We can’t think. That’s why we’re so silent; we can’t think about what’s on the other side of this. Terror robs you of language and you need language for the healing to begin. 1

This is not a different experience for us here at DukeUniversity. We go to class with racist classmates, we go to gym with people who are racists....It’s part of the experience. 2

If it turns out that these students are guilty, I want them expelled. But their expulsion will only bring resolution to this case and not the bigger problem. This is much bigger than them and throwing them out will not solve the problem. I want the administration to acknowledge what is going on and how bad it is. 3

Being a big, black man, it’s hard to walk anywhere at night,
and not have a campus police car slowly drive by me. 4

Everything seems up for grabs--I am only comfortable talking about this event
in my room with close friends. I am actually afraid to even bring it up in public.
But worse, I wonder now about everything. . . . If something like this happens to
me . . . What would be used against me--my clothing? Where I was? 5

I was talking to a white woman student who was asking me “Why do people --
and she meant black people -- make race such a big issue?”
They don’t see race. They just don’t see it. 6

What Does A Social Disaster Sound Like

You go to a party, you get grabbed, you get propositioned, and then you start to question yourself. 7

. . . all you heard was "Black students just complain all the time, all you do is complain and self-segregate." And whenever we try to explain why we’re offended, it’s pushed back on us. Just the phrase "self-segregation": the blame is always put on us. 8

. . . no one is really talking about how to keep the young woman herself central
to this conversation, how to keep her humanity before us . . . she doesn’t seem
to be visible in this. Not for the university, not for us 9


I can’t help but think about the different attention given to what has happened from what it would have been if the guys had been not just black but participating in a different sport, like football, something that’s not so upscale. 10

And this is what I’m thinking right now – Duke isn’t really responding to this. Not really. And this, what has happened, is a disaster. This is a social disaster. 11

The students know that the disaster didn’t begin on March 13th and won’t end with what the police say or the court decides. Like all disasters, this one has a history. And what lies beneath what we’re hearing from our students are questions about the future. This ad, printed in the most easily seen venue on campus, is just one way for us to say that we’re hearing what our students are saying. Some of these things were said by a mixed (in every way possible) group of students on Wednesday, March 29th at an African & African American Studies Program forum, some were printed in an issue of the Independent that came out that same day, and some were said to us inside and outside of the classroom. We’re turning up the volume in a moment when some of the most vulnerable among us are being asked to quiet down while we wait. To the students speaking individually and to the protestors making collective noise, thank you for not waiting and for making yourselves heard.

We thank the following departments and programs for signing onto this ad with African & African American Studies: Romance Studies; Psychology: Social and Health Sciences; Franklin Humanities Institute; Critical U.S. Studies; Art, Art History, and Visual Studies; Classical Studies; Asian & African Languages and Literature; Women’s Studies; Latino/a Studies; Latin American and Caribbean Studies; Medieval and Renaissance Studies; European Studies; Program in Education; and the Center for Documentary Studies. Because of space limitations, the names of individual faculty and staff who signed on in support may be read at the AAAS website: http://www.duke.edu/web/africanameric/

Notes:
1 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
2 quote by Danielle Terrazas Williams, a first-year student in Duke's Ph.D. program in history, taken from Independent
3 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
4 Unattributed quote made by an African-Amerian male at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
5 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
6 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
7 quote by Audrey Christopher, a recent graduate of Duke, taken from Independent
8 quote by Audrey Christopher, a recent graduate of Duke, taken from Independent
9 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
10 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere
11 Unattributed quote made at March 29th forum, or elsewhere

[Broderick]

127. durhaminwonderland blog

is a professor named KC Johnson who has written for years on this case relentlessly from the beginning and had a hand in bringing Nifong down in my estimation. That whole thing was a unmitigated hoax from the beginning and politics of race relations and the halves and have nots. He also wrote a wonderful book that outlined the case in detail and anyone who can't see it for what it was is blinded by stereotypes they want to see in reverse.

[pnwmom]

93. Vandalism? She set a fire. Nifong had every reason not

to prosecute her for perjury. Who knows what she could have testified about him.

[ronnie624]

57. This forum is not a court of law.

She's a murderer.

[pnwmom]

92. She WAS convicted of 5 misdemeanors -- in another crime involving

an attack against this same boyfriend. The jury deadlocked 6-3 on the charge of arson.

And she should have been convicted of perjury in the Duke case. There's no question that she gave numerous false statements since her own statements contradicted each other extensively.

[LisaL]

202. No, that was a different guy.

[Rage for Order]

208. The attack in February 2010 was actually a different boyfriend

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7068705/

When officers arrived, they found Mangum and her boyfriend, Milton Walker, 33, fighting. According to police documents, Mangum scratched, punched and threw objects at Walker and told him, "I'm going to stab you, (expletive)!"

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lacrosse/2011-04-18-duke-accuser-crystal-mangum-murder-charge_N.htm

Crystal Mangum, 32, was indicted on a charge of first-degree murder and two counts of larceny. She has been in jail since April 3, when police charged her with assault in the stabbing of 46-year-old Reginald Daye. He died after nearly two weeks at a hospital.


I can see how it might get confusing, though. She threatened to stab her other boyfriend, Milton Walker, last year, but this year she actually did stab (& kill) her boyfriend, Reginald Dye.

[Esurientes]

278. n/m

Rage for Order already posted the name of Crystal's 2010 boyfriend.

[harmonicon]

28. so, once accused someone's immediately guilty?

Do you not get the irony behind what you've just posted?

[Rage for Order]

37. She should be in prison regardless of the outcome of this case

That said, she has a http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7068705/">history of threatening to stab her boyfriends. When she was arrested for a different incident last February (for which she was convicted of child abuse, resisting an officer, and injury to personal property) she told her then-boyfriend (in front of police officers) "I'm going to stab you, (expletive)!"

It's a proven fact that she lied to police and the District Attorney's office about her "rape". In this most recent case, the neighbors called the cops earlier in the evening because Mangum and her boyfriend were fighting. The cops left and a little while later Mangum's boyfriend was in serious condition following multiple stab wounds, and Mangum was arrested in a nearby apartment. I wonder if, during her fight with her now-dead ex-boyfriend, she also told him, "I'm going to stab you, (expletive)!"

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/9380958/

For the second time in 14 months, the Durham woman who falsely accused three Duke University lacrosse players of rape has been charged with assaulting a man with whom she was living.

Police said Mangum stabbed Reginald Daye, 46, in the torso with a kitchen knife during a dispute at 3507 Century Oaks Drive early Sunday.

"If you do get out of jail, you're to have nothing to do with the victim at this time," District Judge Nancy Gordon told Mangum during a brief court hearing. "Stay away from him. Don't text him. Don't Facebook him. Don't have somebody do it on your behalf. Stay away means stay away."

A man who said he was Daye's nephew called 911 to report the stabbing, saying it occurred while Daye and his girlfriend were arguing about rent money. The caller said police came to the apartment complex earlier while the couple argued, but the stabbing occurred after the officers left.

[kwassa]

190. Who appointed you judge and jury?

[plumbob]

41. Thank you.

Seem to be some very concrete folk posting here.

[bluestateguy]

8. Here is where I claim vindication and say "I told you so"

(in the most sneering obnoxious voice you can think of)

Had the DA prosecuted her for fraud and obstruction of justice back in 2007 and put her away for a few years, none of this would have likely happened.

All of you who supported this "victim" to the very end have a big ickey egg on your face.

[plumbob]

11. Gosh, since she has been convicted of nothing, is it quite right to call

for prison anyway?

Perhaps we should wait for the facts of the case before condemning her. I seem to recall a lot of prep-lovers demanding that assumed innocence be the rule of the day.

But, since she's neither the "right" class, color, or gender, or occupation, perhaps it's okay. Just leave her hanging on a barbed wire fence somewhere.

[SkyDaddy7]

12. I was on your side all the way down the thread until...

you brought up "since she's neither the "right" class, color, or gender, or occupation"

I do not think anyone here that is perhaps jumping the gun on the murder charge is doing so for those reasons & the legal system has been more than fair to her so far. IMHO

...As much as I agree with you on not convicting her for murder it is fair to say this woman has had several chances. One cannot deny she has been treated fairly by the authorities despite the obvious pattern of trouble she seems to get in on a regular basis.

[defendandprotect]

25. The protectionism that you see is for the wealthy/sporting class ... Duke boys --

It is a class argument, but the other way around --

Meanwhile, you might ask yourself what this downtrodden exotic dancer thought

to gain by creating false charges against these college kids?

And with so much money on one side of the battle re Duke, I wouldn't say that

she ever had a fair chance. Anyone who believed her story was intimidated.

It is reminiscent of the Tawana Brawley case -- not a parallel -- but a situation

where power was overwhelmingly on one side. Save for the AA politician whose

name I can't think of at the moment -- ah -- Al Sharpton. And he was certainly

also punished dearly over decades for that support.



After a Decade, Brawley Reappears and Repeats Charges
... confident and defiant Tawana Brawley ... any voice contesting her account. Supported by the grand jury report, critics called the Brawley ... less racially divisive politician
www.nytimes.com/1997/12/03/nyregion/after-a-decade... - Cached


http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/03/nyregion/after-a-decade-brawley-reappears-and-repeats-charges.html?pagewanted=all

[pnwmom]

95. What did she hope to gain? Money and attention.

She hired a publicist, and she had Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton running down there to help her. One of them even offered to pay for a scholarship for her.

And it was all working really well for her for MONTHS. The media was enthralled by her story.

Fortunately, the Duke students did have the means to defend themselves against her lies.

Why do you keep bringing up Brawley? It's a completely unrelated case.

[defendandprotect]

155. And how much "money" and what kind of "attention" did she gain -- ?

As I recall it, at one point she couldn't leave her house because of threats?

And certainly Nifong was not up to the job -- and completely intimidated.

I continue to mention Brawley because there are similarities -- gang rape, an

AA woman -- and white males -- with tons of intimidation.

[pnwmom]

170. She failed. Miserably. That doesn't mean she didn't try.

And if some members of the media hadn't caught on and made public information Nifong was trying to hide, three innocent men might have been sent to prison for decades.

[defendandprotect]

183. Think we need to review that info that Nifong was "trying to hide" ....

However, most of all this young woman would have understood the odds against her

every day -- especially in providing the "services" she did to males -- and in her

experiences that evening with the males at the fraternity.

Still don't find it likely that she didn't get the message -- and don't see revenge

as a motive, either.

[Posteritatis]

106. Or it's for, y'know, the innocent. (nt)

[defendandprotect]

156. And you're also making that argument for this woman now?

[msongs]

13. so you say she is not the right class, color, or gender....well you are allowed to have your views n

[plumbob]

19. You musta missed the " " around right.

Or if not, you are certainly entitled to your view as well.

[provis99]

46. he's perfectly free to have an opinion on her guilt.

This isn't a courtroom bub. It's a blog.

For example, I think George Bush is a war criminal, though he has not been convicted of war crimes. Or perhaps you would tell me to think otherwise.

[pnwmom]

94. Since the dead man named her as his attacker, and she has

a history of violent behavior involving him, it is highly unlikely that she will even go to trial. Don't you think she's likely to plead?

[joshcryer]

115. It depends, his naming her may not be usable.

It depends if the context is a "dying utterance." Otherwise she will not be able to "face her accuser" and that evidence can't be used.

Hopefully the police got a dying utterance out of the guy.

[pnwmom]

133. If he made a dying utterance, hopefully

it meets the legal requirements.

[defendandprotect]

184. Who's minding the store? Are you on a break? Meanwhile . . .

trying to refamiliarize myself with this case --

and certainly "boyfriend" seems to be the same one she evidently attacked once before?

But also wondering is this "boyfriend" or pimp?



Sad ... sad ... for everyone involved!!

[LisaL]

200. No, the guy she is accused of killing is not the same one

whose clothes she was accused of burning in the arson case. A different guy.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Parents, keep your children OFF THE POLE!

PB

[BlueIris]

159. Yeah, because I'm sure her choice of profession caused her to get indicted for murder.

:sarcasm:

[Corruption Winz]

18. The fact that people are still sticking up for this woman is remarkable..

And unless they were using this, "hasn't been convicted of anything yet" argument with the Duke lacrosse players, they have no right to use it now.

The fact is that there is a great book named Guilty Until Proven Innocent by Donald S. Connery that clearly outlines what really happened. She should have been imprisoned long ago. Whether or not she committed this murder is irrelevant to that fact. At the very least, this wouldn't have happened to her.

[plumbob]

21. Well, of course if the lacrosse players had been in prison prior

to graduation, they couldn't have been at the party and nothing could have happened to them, right?

Prison for everyone to keep them safe!

[Corruption Winz]

30. You're sarcasm leads me to believe that you didn't get my point...

What I'm saying is that even if she didn't murder him, she couldn't even be a suspect as she'd have been in prison. Simple enough.

The fact of the matter is that this woman is constantly around questionable circumstances and seems to always come out looking the worse for wear.

[plumbob]

38. I understood it perfectly. People who are around questionable

circumstances are always guilty of something, qed, if they were in prison, everyone would be better off.

I agreed, by noting that if the lacrosse players had been in prison prior to these questionable circumstances, they would be safe from harm by anyone, simple enough, and deserve to be there, obviously, because they were around questionable circumstances.

Your own language is interesting - claiming that she is somehow an aggressor who "always comes out looking the worse for wear", which is normally language we would reserve for victims.

Interesting, isn't it?

[defendandprotect]

68. +1000% --

:)

[Corruption Winz]

131. Not really..

What is interesting is that you still seem to be hung up on something that you're not totally getting. I'm not saying everyone should be locked up. What I'm saying is SHE should be locked up. She shouldn't be locked up for being around questionable circumstances. She should be locked up for falsely accusing men. That, in this particular case, would have allowed her to avoid this situation.

Now, I ask you, where in that paragraph did I say this should be an across the board situation? Where did I say that if everyone is locked up, it keeps people safe? Where did I say that everyone should be locked up, period? Where would that even apply to people who haven't committed a crime, which she LIKELY did TWICE NOW?


Don't worry, I'll wait...........

[pnwmom]

96. Unlike Mangum, the students never did anything that should have put them in prison. n/t

[defendandprotect]

26. Can you suggest anything this downtrodden AA woman could have gained from a

false accusation?

[slackmaster]

27. Attention, and possibly money from a civil lawsuit if she got any of those men convicted

HTH

[Corruption Winz]

31. The same thing that anyone else does when they are in the same situation..

Surely, you're not trying to suggest that people don't lie about things like this on a regular basis?

It happens for TONS of reasons. Women who are scorned. Women who want the attention. Women who want fame and fortune or one or the other.

I say women because in cases of rape, it's generally women that accuse men. And the simple fact of the matter is that a woman should ALWAYS come forward when it really happens. That doesn't mean that when they do come forward, that it ALWAYS had to have happened.

I feel the need to stress that it's innocent until proven guilty and not guilty until proven innocent. If you notice, I haven't said that I feel she murdered this man. But, it's hard to argue that she'd be in trouble for murder if she was in prison for a crime that she LIKELY committed when it comes to perjury.

[defendandprotect]

50. Are you suggesting females are our rapists--?

Perhaps you don't know how completely this woman was harrassed after the charges

became know -- in fact, look what they did to the prosecutor!!


It happens for TONS of reasons. Women who are scorned. Women who want the attention. Women who want fame and fortune or one or the other.

This woman was invited and paid --

And what pray tell did she gain in "fame and fortune" -- ???


I feel the need to stress that it's innocent until proven guilty and not guilty until proven innocent. If you notice, I haven't said that I feel she murdered this man. But, it's hard to argue that she'd be in trouble for murder if she was in prison for a crime that she LIKELY committed when it comes to perjury.

Well, by all means, let's lock up anyone you think may commit murder!!

[pnwmom]

105. "Look what they did to the prosecutor"???!!!

That prosecutor should have gone to jail. He conspired with the lab to withhold exculpatory evidence. You're going to defend that kind of prosecutor?

Mangum told people at the strip club that she was planning to get some money from the lacrosse players. But the students knew they were innocent, and they wouldn't try to buy her off. So no, she didn't gain "fame and fortune." She gained infamy and fortune.

[defendandprotect]

158. The prosecutor was completely intimidated -- he had no idea that he

had a tiger by the tail --

I'll have to review that last part of the allegations against him -- it never

made any sense.

And, what Mangum said -- as reported by one person -- seems to suggest she wanted

the money that was OWED to her by the Lacrosse players --

[pnwmom]

171. Nifong was guiltier than she was. At least she had some mental illness

as a partial excuse.

You seem to have forgotten -- if you ever knew -- what Nifong's agenda was in all of this. He was on the losing end of a three-way primary election campaign in a town with a heavy concentration of African American voters. Then this case dropped in his lap. He immediately took over management of the case from the D.A. and went on TV, grandstanding about how he was going to take down those guilty Duke students on behalf of this poor black "girl." The more he went on TV, championing her cause, the higher his poll ratings were with voters -- and he went from behind to win the primary.

After that, he knew he was a shoe-in for the general election -- but he was stuck with this stinking case that he'd used to get all that free publicity. That's when he went into his "hide the evidence" mode.

[defendandprotect]

178. She was mentally ill?

Well, until I review the case -- and I have some stuff around in my computer --

will take your word for it.

Nifong looked to me like an ill-placed and anemic choice for a prosecutor --

don't know what his prior experience was, but certainly he was not up to this job --

especially this case. And, rather, it looked to me as though the case ran away with

itself. Duke also made decisions which they reversed. And there was a rather ugly

counter-defense for the players which further excited threats against the accuser.

Re "hide the evidence" mode by Nifong -- that is the point where his weakness and

incompetence are most on display. If he actually did intentionally "hide" evidence --

or get someone else to do it -- he was quite inept at it!

[pnwmom]

189. What was the ugly counter-defense for the students?

None of their lawyers or anyone else on their team launched any "ugly" counter-defense. But they did release bank camera photos, cell phone records, and other records that gradually blew Mangum's case apart.

Nifong succeeded in keeping evidence hidden until the State Attorney general finally personally took over the case and discovered the exculpatory evidence that had been withheld from the defense. If the State Attorney General hadn't taken over the case, those students would likely have gone to prison.

[defendandprotect]

196. As I recall it, students on campus defending the players ...

were saying some rather ugly things about the accuser --

which generated yet more threats to her.


Nifong succeeded in keeping evidence hidden until the State Attorney general finally personally took over the case and discovered the exculpatory evidence that had been withheld from the defense. If the State Attorney General hadn't taken over the case, those students would likely have gone to prison.

Again -- think all of that has to be reviewed -- wasn't it more like Nifong was "hiding evidence"

in plain sight?

[pnwmom]

207. So you think the three accused students could control

all the other students at Duke University? Of course they couldn't.

Blaming the three accused for the actions of all students at Duke would be like blaming other students at North Carolina State University for Mangum's actions -- obviously unfair.

As to Nifong, he may have been hiding some evidence in "plain sight"; other evidence -- such as the DNA evidence from 5 unrelated men, none of whom were lacrosse students -- he was simply hiding. He conspired with the testing lab to withhold that evidence from the defense.

[defendandprotect]

210. Only YOU are suggesting that --

You asked me about the reference I made to the counter-demonstrations --

and I gave you the answer.

As I've said, I've got info stored on this case --

As to Nifong, he may have been hiding some evidence in "plain sight"; other evidence -- such as the DNA evidence from 5 unrelated men, none of whom were lacrosse students -- he was simply hiding. He conspired with the testing lab to withhold that evidence from the defense.

but if you have a handy link to this info, it would make it faster.

If not -- I'll eventually be able to run it down!

Thanks!

[pnwmom]

211. As I said before, Wikipedia has a lot of accurate information

about the case. Here, for example, note in the first paragraph, "Mike Nifong falsely represented to the public and to the court that DNA had only been found from a single male source, her boyfriend." The explanation that Nifong and Meehan came up with -- that they didn't want to "drag anyone else through the mud" was ludicrous. The 5 sets of male DNA were all unidentified -- they didn't match any of the 46 students tested -- so how could they possibly be dragged through the mud? How can any "unidentified" person be dragged through any mud? This was exculpatory evidence, because it showed 1) that Mangum lied when she said the only person she had had sex with was her boyfriend and 2) having sex with multiple partners could explain, along with her using the "sex toy" in the hotel room, why she had some vaginal swelling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

After the initial rounds of testing done by the state crime lab were completed, the district attorney sought the services of a private laboratory (DNA Security of Burlington) to conduct additional tests. DNA from multiple males was found inside Mangum and upon the rape kit items that had been tested.<34> Mike Nifong falsely represented to the public and to the court that DNA had only been found from a single male source, her boyfriend.<35><36>

On December 13, 2006, defense attorneys filed court papers stating that the private lab had found DNA from multiple males in Mangum's body— but none that belonged to the accused players.<37><38>
On December 15, 2006, defense attorneys argued in a motion that the DNA report given to Nifong's office (and thus what the defense attorneys received) was incomplete, omitting information that showed DNA samples from several men on the woman and her underwear, but that none of the genetic material matched any of the players. The director of the DNA lab, Brian Meehan, acknowledged that the decision violated the lab's policies, but stated that his lab did not try to withhold information.<39> Rather, Meehan claimed, he decided to withhold the exculpatory DNA evidence after discussing it with Nifong in an attempt to not drag anyone else through the mud.<40>
DNA taken from all surfaces of three false fingernails belonging to Mangum which were retrieved from the trash in the bathroom (widely but falsely reported as DNA taken from the underside only of a single fingernail)<41> showed some characteristics similar to David Evans' DNA, according to the private laboratory, but the match was not conclusive.<42> Defense attorneys have suggested that any DNA present may have come from the tissue paper, cotton swabs, or other hygiene-related trash that had been in the garbage can along with the fingernail, since David Evans lived in the house. This was confirmed later by Attorney General Cooper's investigation: "... to the extent that Evans's DNA could not be excluded, the SBI experts confirmed that the DNA could easily have been transferred to the fingernails from other materials in the trash can".<43>
Nifong claimed that the lack of DNA is not unusual and that 75–80% of all sexual assault cases lack DNA evidence.<35> Rape victims often delay reporting by days or weeks, inadvertently destroying DNA evidence. In this case, Mangum had a rape-kit exam administered only hours after the end of the party, and the absence of DNA is considered unlikely by many legal experts.<44>
During Nifong's ethics trial on June 14, 2007, the complete DNA findings were revealed during Brad Bannon's testimony. It revealed, according to conservative estimates, that the lab had discovered at least two unidentified males' DNA in Mangum's pubic region; at least two unidentified males' DNA in her rectum; at least four to five unidentified males' DNA on her panties; and at least one identified male's DNA in her vagina.<45>

[defendandprotect]

216. Thanks -- I'll look it over --

[defendandprotect]

238. Again -- thanks for the link -- and thought

the wiki article interesting -- especially the LIVE footnotes --

and I reviewed the Disciplinary Hearing and would still have a long way to go

in reviewing this case but not a lot of time for it right now.

I would find it difficult, if not impossible to argue for Nifong since there is

no way to say he wasn't given sufficient opportunity to reveal ALL the DNA facts.

The court pretty much says he was involved in self-deception for his own self-interest.

And, I would not suggest that had there not been an investigation that he would have

eventually released the additional DNA info.

However, it was still pre-trial -- and one day some attorney may make an argument for him?

Basically, I think Nifong was hugely the wrong person to handle this case.


There will continue to be suspicions about the case, imo.

However, given Nifong's conduct, obviously these are the decisions that had to be made.

Nonetheless, I continue to feel that something did happen --


Thanks, again -- :)

[Corruption Winz]

136. "Well, by all means, let's lock up anyone you think may commit murder!!"

Why do people think this is across the board?

What is so hard to understand about case by case? What I'm saying is SHE should be locked up. She likely committed a crime. All the players besides a black player (since she said her attackers were white) took DNA tests and all 46 tests failed to find a match. All were willing to take polygraph tests. The only DNA that could link anyone to this was so insignificant that tissue paper could have transferred it.

Some stated that if you wait too long, it inadvertently destroys DNA. However, she was tested hours after leaving the party. Not long enough to destroy DNA. Virtually all medical examiners say that if she were to have multiple amounts of DNA on/in her body, something stronger would have stuck. Nothing did.

"During Nifong's ethics trial on June 14, 2007, the complete DNA findings were revealed during Brad Bannon's testimony. It revealed, according to conservative estimates, that the lab had discovered at least two unidentified males' DNA in Mangum's pubic region; at least two unidentified males' DNA in her rectum; at least four to five unidentified males' DNA on her panties; and at least one identified male's DNA in her vagina."

Yet, you can't link ANY OF THIS to the Lacrosse players? Either she's lying or accusing the wrong people. In my opinion, she's lying. Beside the point.

All I was saying was that if she were lying, which I believe she was, she'd have been in jail and all of this could have been avoided. I said nothing about anyone else or locking anyone else up. Just her.

You can disagree with her lying and my belief that she is a liar. That says absolutely nothing about other people or locking them up without probable cause. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

48. Umm. The evidence clearly showed her cry of "rape" was used by her to avoid ANOTHER trip to ...

... to the drunk tank.

[defendandprotect]

51. umm ... you want to explain that?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

54. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case#After_departure

After departureAs Roberts drove away with Mangum, the two women began to argue. Roberts pulled over and attempted to push Mangum out.<22> When that measure failed, Roberts drove Mangum to a nearby Kroger supermarket, went inside, and spoke to a security guard. She told the guard that a woman was refusing to leave her car. The guard walked to the car and asked Mangum to leave, but Mangum stayed in the vehicle. The guard said that she did not smell alcohol on Mangum's breath, but thought she might have been under the influence of other drugs. At 1:22 AM, the guard called 911 to report that Mangum refused to leave the car. Police then arrived, tried to remove Mangum from the car, and questioned her.<23>

The police then took Mangum to the Durham Access Center, a mental-health and substance-abuse facility, for involuntary commitment. During the admission process, she claimed that she had been raped prior to her arrival.<24> Mangum was transferred to Duke University Medical Center and received treatment for genital injuries, but it was unclear whether or not these injuries were consistent with rape. There were no abrasions, tears, or bleeding in the vaginal area, but investigators did find swelling in the vaginal area, along with tenderness in Mangum's breasts and lower-right quadrant. There was no blunt-force trauma, but Mangum had two non-bleeding scratches on her right knee and a non-bleeding scratch on her right heel.

[defendandprotect]

58. You claimed "another" trip to the drunk tank ....

If you have any evidence of her having been previously in a drunk tank,

please post it -- !!


Don't know what you think these two references do for you post --

However, note that she cannot be roused -- by security guard or police -- to move out of the car!

THE SECURITY GUARD 'DID NOT SMELL ALCOHOL ON MANGUM'S BREATH' --

but thought she might have been under the influence of other drugs.


After departureAs Roberts drove away with Mangum, the two women began to argue. Roberts pulled over and attempted to push Mangum out.<22> When that measure failed, Roberts drove Mangum to a nearby Kroger supermarket, went inside, and spoke to a security guard. She told the guard that a woman was refusing to leave her car. The guard walked to the car and asked Mangum to leave, but Mangum stayed in the vehicle. The guard said that she did not smell alcohol on Mangum's breath, but thought she might have been under the influence of other drugs. At 1:22 AM, the guard called 911 to report that Mangum refused to leave the car. Police then arrived, tried to remove Mangum from the car, and questioned her.<23>

Further ...

The police then took Mangum to the Durham Access Center, a mental-health and substance-abuse facility, for involuntary commitment. During the admission process, she claimed that she had been raped prior to her arrival.<24> Mangum was transferred to Duke University Medical Center and received treatment for genital injuries, but it was unclear whether or not these injuries were consistent with rape. There were no abrasions, tears, or bleeding in the vaginal area, but investigators did find swelling in the vaginal area, along with tenderness in Mangum's breasts and lower-right quadrant. There was no blunt-force trauma, but Mangum had two non-bleeding scratches on her right knee and a non-bleeding scratch on her right heel.

This is a "substance-abuse facility" -- do we have any info on a blood test having been taken

which would tell us what she had in her system?

At Duke University Medical Center she receives treatment for "genital injuries" -

they did find "swelling" in the vaginal area -

NOTE: NO REPORT ON RECTAL AREA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case#After_d...


MEANWHILE ....

During Nifong's ethics trial on June 14, 2007, the complete DNA findings were revealed during Brad Bannon's testimony. It revealed, according to conservative estimates,

that the lab had discovered at least two unidentified males' DNA in Mangum's pubic region;

at least two unidentified males' DNA in her rectum;

at least four to five unidentified males' DNA on her panties;


and at least one identified male's DNA in her vagina.<45>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

[LisaL]

65. Nothing is as good as beating a dead horse, hah?

[defendandprotect]

69. If you want to actually "debate" -- try doing it -- !!

Otherwise you and your inane posts will be on ignore --

your choice!

[LisaL]

71. There is absolutely nothing to debate.

That horse is dead, dead, dead...

[defendandprotect]

76. Well, if YOU are saying it, it must certainly be true --

:rofl:

Bye --

[pnwmom]

100. The more you debate, the more you expose your ignorance

of the facts of the case.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

72. All that DNA evidence and none of it from the accused.

She was busy alright.

I don't know about drug tests but she admitted to being hopped up on Flexeril and booze BEFORE she attended the party.

And the night she loaded up on booze (twice the limit) stole a car and led the police on a high-speed chase ending in a crash the cops took her out for cake and ice cream. No time in the tank for HER.

LOL. You remind me of the hold-out WW2 Japanese soldiers found in the jungle 20 years after the war ended.

[pnwmom]

101. None from any of the other 43 lacrosse players, either.

[pnwmom]

107. Why do you keep implying that the 5 unidentified men's DNA

means that one of the Duke students is guilty?

All 46 white members of the team voluntarily gave DNA samples. (She claimed her attacker was white.) NONE of the 46 Duke students belong to the unidentified DNA in her underpants.

The reason Nifong withheld this information about the 5 men's DNA is because they did NOT belong to any DNA student -- and the 5 men's DNA explains why she might have some swelling in the vaginal area. She recently had sex with 5 men. Of course she had some swelling.

So this fact of the 5 men's unidentified DNA is actually more of the EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE that Nifong conspired to withhold from the defense.

And, yes, she WAS under the influence of another drug besides alcohol: she admitted to having taken Flexeril, a muscle relaxant known to interact with alcohol. And that's the only drug that showed up in her system. None of the Duke students fed her any drugs.

[pnwmom]

99. You know, you really should educate yourself about this case

if you want to intelligently argue your case. You are woefully uninformed.


As you can see below, the police were going to bring her to a mental health and substance abuse facility for involuntary commitment. But after she claimed to have been raped, they instead took her to the Duke hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

As Roberts drove away with Mangum, the two women began to argue. Roberts pulled over and attempted to push Mangum out.<22> When that measure failed, Roberts drove Mangum to a nearby Kroger supermarket, went inside, and spoke to a security guard. She told the guard that a woman was refusing to leave her car. The guard walked to the car and asked Mangum to leave, but Mangum stayed in the vehicle. The guard said that she did not smell alcohol on Mangum's breath, but thought she might have been under the influence of other drugs. At 1:22 AM, the guard called 911 to report that Mangum refused to leave the car. Police then arrived, tried to remove Mangum from the car, and questioned her.<23>

The police then took Mangum to the Durham Access Center, a mental-health and substance-abuse facility, for involuntary commitment. During the admission process, she claimed that she had been raped prior to her arrival.<24> Mangum was transferred to Duke University Medical Center and received treatment for genital injuries, but it was unclear whether or not these injuries were consistent with rape. There were no abrasions, tears, or bleeding in the vaginal area, but investigators did find swelling in the vaginal area, along with tenderness in Mangum's breasts and lower-right quadrant. There was no blunt-force trauma, but Mangum had two non-bleeding scratches on her right knee and a non-bleeding scratch on her right heel.

[pnwmom]

97. MONEY. MONEY. AND MORE MONEY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

The strip club's security officer said that Mangum told co-workers four days after the party that she was going to get money from some boys at a Duke party who had not paid her, mentioning that the boys were white. The security guard did not make a big deal of it because he felt that no one took her seriously.[

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. Not every evil act is associated with tangible personal gain.

She may have simply made up the allegations because she hates rich white boys.

Which may also explain some of her defenders.

[bluestateguy]

36. Their narrative was ruined when Nifong's case collapsed four years ago

And they are still enraged about it.

They sooooo wanted the nice little Lifetime movie channel storyline with the mean old rich white boys on the lacrosse team as the principal villains and Magnum as the innocent victim.

[lumberjack_jeff]

138. It appears to be mostly a couple of people. From "When Prophesy fails"...

Festinger stated that five conditions must be present, if someone is to become a more fervent believer after a failure or disconfirmation:
A belief must be held with deep conviction and it must have some relevance to action, that is, to what the believer does or how he behaves.
The person holding the belief must have committed himself to it; that is, for the sake of his belief, he must have taken some important action that is difficult to undo. In general, the more important such actions are, and the more difficult they are to undo, the greater is the individual's commitment to the belief.
The belief must be sufficiently specific and sufficiently concerned with the real world so that events may unequivocally refute the belief.
Such undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur and must be recognized by the individual holding the belief.
The individual believer must have social support. It is unlikely that one isolated believer could withstand the kind of disconfirming evidence that has been specified. If, however, the believer is a member of a group of convinced persons who can support one another, the belief may be maintained and the believers may attempt to proselyte or persuade nonmembers that the belief is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

The leaps of faith made during the duke lacrosse events are difficult to jump back from. The beliefs that Mangham was a victim (or "downtrodden") are so central to some people's world view, that they still defend her even now that she's a murderer.

[Scottybeamer70]

24. Karma.....or something

[struggle4progress]

29. Yeah, she doesn't seem a very attractive person. I didn't think the Duke kids who hired

her as a stripper were very attractive either:

... (1) ... team members called the two women “niggers” and “bitches”; (2) one threatened to rape them with a broomstick; (3) another spoke of hiring strippers in an e-mail sent the same night that threatened to kill “the bitches” and cut off their skin while he ejaculated in his “Duke-issued spandex;” and (4) one shouted to the victim as she left the team’s big house, “Hey bitch, thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt” ... http://feministlawprofs.law.sc.edu/?p=1455

I'm unimpressed with the whole crew: as I recall, she showed up drunk and later passed out on their porch, so -- instead off getting help for her -- the team took photos of her passed out and posted them all over the place

[LisaL]

33. Well she is the one now accused of murder, while last I checked,

they are either studying or working. So who exactly isn't a "very attractive person?"

[struggle4progress]

34. There but for fortune

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGP7taM6edc

[plumbob]

43. Pray tell, give the details of each of them.

[LisaL]

45. WTF would I do that, pray tell?

[plumbob]

49. You brought it up as a vindication of their low behavior previously.

So I suppose you really don't know if any of them are currently incarcerated?

[pnwmom]

108. What low behavior? Attending a party with a stripper?

Are you some kind of Puritan?

[plumbob]

113. Okay, let me get this straight - strippers who work at parties are evil,

murdering bitches who are seeking physical harm and large bucks from their customer/victims, but those who HIRED the stripper, and did not pay her, by the way, are just fun-loving joes with boisterous personalities and youthful hijinks to get out of their systems.

That about right?

Or do you think their mammas were glad to hear about the whole "party"? Their vicars were present? What about this whole thing made anyone look great?

Yeah, it's low behavior.

[pnwmom]

123. Absolutely not. Crystal Mangum is the only guilty person here.

She was guilty of falsely accusing the Duke students and she was guilty of several misdemeanors after she got in some kind of fight with her boyfriend that caused her to set a fire in her bathroom. That same boyfriend accused her of being the one to kill him before he died. But she isn't officially guilty of murder yet. She hasn't yet decided whether to plead on those charges.

But her actions don't make any other strippers guilty of anything.
And her actions didn't make the Duke students guilty of anything, either -- as hard as she (and her supporters) have tried.

Mangum is the only guilty party here. Oops -- I almost forgot. Mike Nifong must be included among the guilty parties, too. On a guiltiness a scale, he currently ranks higher -- unless and until Mangum is convicted of murder.

[defendandprotect]

197. +1000% -- exactly !!

[ButterflyBlood]

218. No, more like strippers who make up false rape stories and kill people have a problem

Most strippers don't do that.

[pnwmom]

102. If they had been charged with something we would have heard about it.

Instead, they're all quietly leading their lives. When, if they had been the attention seekers that she clearly was, they could have made a fortune on the lecture circuit.

[plumbob]

42. Yes, they are an ugly lot, inside and out.

I have sincerely wished that they will all live a very long time and get everything they deserve. Everything.

I wrote Duke off as a viable institution after that. Wouldn't hire another soul from there for anything.

[RZM]

47. LOL

Not a single word of condemnation for this woman from you in this thread, all because she wasn't convicted of perjury in the lacrosse case, though the available evidence seems to point to her being a liar. Yet, anybody who attended Duke University is automatically excluded from your favor?

Wow.

[plumbob]

52. Yep. Institutional rot starts at the top and creates an endemic

illness that permeates everything and everyone.

Duke is not exactly available to shanty folk, is it?

Used to be more was expected from those to whom much was given, but of course, these days, just grab everything and then shoot 'em in the face. Then make them apologize to you. Until colleges draft folk, I'll have to assume that students there like what it is.

Is it okay if I do my own hiring for my own reasons?

[RZM]

56. You don't need to involve me in your hiring decisions

You really aren't making much sense here. You're justifying your discrimination by making strange statements about grabbing things and shooting people in the face. It's kind of bizarre.

Even if the lacrosse students had committed rape that night (and the evidence seems to indicate they didn't), it would still be wrong to tar all Duke students with that brush. The fact that they were completely exonerated makes it especially difficult to understand where you are coming from.

My sense is that you just have something against certain people from certain backgrounds. I wonder how tolerant you are of others who share that same type of broad hostility toward different groups, especially groups that you personally favor?

[plumbob]

114. Dick Cheney shot a prominent Texas attorney in the face. The attorney

ended up having to apologize to Cheney. That is the exercise of power over decency.

These privileged young males used that same power to vilify this woman. They held and still hold, the power.

I do have everything against people who use their power to get things that ought to be reserved for merit, such as intelligence, perseverance, productivity. So yes, I do favor hard workers, intelligent folks who work for good, and those who produce value.

If that's wrong to you, sorry. You seem to feel just the opposite.

[pnwmom]

132. They vilified their FALSE ACCUSER. No, actually, they didn't.

They just spoke out on their own innocence.

But they would have been perfectly justified if they had vilified her.

[pnwmom]

110. Duke takes bright students on full scholarships.

And those accused students didn't do anything worse than attend a party with a stripper. What % of the male population in the U.S. has never done such a thing?

[plumbob]

116. Really? You never read the comments they made about skinning bitches

and such?

Do and return.

[pnwmom]

125. Only one Duke student sent the email to which you're referring,

and he wasn't one of the accused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case#McFadyen_e-mail

A couple of hours after the party ended, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the lacrosse team, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to have some strippers over and made references to killing them and then cutting off their skin while wearing his Duke-issue spandex and ejaculating.<30>

The e-mail was provided to Durham police by an unnamed Duke University employee with administrative access to the contents of student, staff, and faculty e-mail. The police claimed their source for the e-mail was an addressee. Some of the players suggested that the e-mail was conceived as humorous irony. Administrators asserted the email was an imitation of Patrick Bateman, the protagonist in the Bret Easton Ellis novel, American Psycho, which was read and lectured on in at least one Duke class. McFadyen was not charged with any crime, but he was suspended from Duke, due to what the university described as safety concerns.

[plumbob]

139. Some of the players suggested that the e-mail was conceived as humorous irony

So the others knew nothing of it, but could comment on the contents?

Really?

[pnwmom]

161. They commented AFTER Nifong released the email to the media.

And many students at Duke could have made the same comment because of taking the class that included American Psycho. Didn't you read your own link?

[plumbob]

175. Yep, but I though your claim was that there was no communication between

the email writer and the team?

Do you not read your own posts?

[defendandprotect]

199. I also continue to think this e-mail is important --

symbolic of a very pitiful state of mind, at the least --

12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.

[pnwmom]

219. Why? The writer of the email wasn't one of the accused. It had no

relevance at all except for its smear value, since people like you blamed the three accused students for an email someone else sent.

[defendandprotect]

243. I'm sure he wanted to "smear" his teammates -- !! HE wrote the article, not his critics--!!

it certainly has relevance as to a general state of mind and or views on

human sexuality and boundaries and violence -- and he is sharing these thoughts

with those he thinks will welcome them!

[pnwmom]

255. No, it had no relevance to anything but his own state of mind

after a boring party.

[defendandprotect]

282. Well, usually after a 'boring party" the crowd doesn't leave enmasse and shut everything down...

just before the police arrive.

Nor do I know anyone who after a "boring party" sent me filthy and violent e-mails!

Without a disclaimer that they were only his own, personal sick thoughts which he

expected would make the recepients puke!!


:eyes:

[pnwmom]

217. Where did I say that? The email writer was not one of the accused,

but he was a member of the team. Only 3 members of the team were accused.

[defendandprotect]

198. 12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.

The time line remains interesting --

and wasn't it one of the accused's father who was reported as having

visited the taxi driver?

The violent e-mail seems to simply echo the evening's events -- weirdly enough!!

[pnwmom]

221. So? There was no DNA, no witnesses -- even the other dancer failed

to confirm Mangum's story -- and during much of that time period Seligmann, one of the accused, was on his cell phone.

[defendandprotect]

244. When someone starts saying "so" in a debate, they obviously want something

to be disappeared --

You do not require DNA evidence to charge rape --

And again, at one point the other dancer did suggest that Crystal was not in

her presence for a period of time. Maybe more -- I'd have to review that info.

Later retracted that.

"During much of the time" ... is not all of the time.

Something like this could have happened in just a few minutes --

[pnwmom]

254. My "so" indicates only that your point had no consequence.

And as the A.G.'s report indicated, DNA evidence is not required. But in a case where the woman immediately goes to a hospital -- as Crystal did -- and a rape kit is obtained, it would be extremely unlikely to find no DNA evidence at all belonging to the perpetrator. When that happens it's usually because the woman has delayed reporting the rape and going to a hospital.

The other dancer herself said there hadn't been enough time apart for the attack to have occurred -- and that Crystal didn't appear to have been attacked and didn't say anything about being attacked.

[defendandprotect]

281. Your "so" was a suggestion that the gap in photo-taking shouldn't be considered ....

yet it is an important gap -- a telling gap --

And there's no "but" -- DNA is not required.


However, again, it would be preferable for me to go back and look at the info I picked

up at that time -- which I don't have time to do right now. I'm sure this subject will

be up yet again with Crystal's trial coming up. As I recall it Crystal made some comments

about being orally sodomized? And she made some interesting comments about that which

I'd like to read again.

Meanwhile, the other dancer did not say that --

As I recall, she said that it could have happened because Crystal was out of her view

for a period of time. Again, I'd have to recheck that. Later she retracted that info.

[pnwmom]

103. None of those 3 students was guilty of anything worse

than attending a party with a couple of strippers.

What is your problem?

[struggle4progress]

143. That case generated much more smoke than light. At some point, perhaps, someone

will attempt to carefully unravel the threads carefully and impartially, in any attempt to understand exactly what happened

I suppose that, if no one else were making the obvious remarks about Mangum, I might myself add such remarks to the thread. But, in fact, many people, here and elsewhere, have made the obvious remarks. So I really do not see much point in repeating those remarks myself: other aspects of the history here seem to me worth remembering, as shedding real light on the history

When the case was originally in the news, I never held or expressed any particular view about the guilt of innocence of lacrosse team members, with respect to the rape charges, nor have I, at any time since, claimed they were guilty of the charges

But I see quite distasteful behavior from many of the characters throughout the tale. Your reaction to my remarks -- "What is your problem?" -- seems to me just more of the unilluminating noise that has surrounded the story from the beginning

[pnwmom]

173. "Until Proven Innocent" is a well-documented, factual accounting

of the case.

But even Wikipedia contains a great deal of factual information, if you really do want to clear away some of the "smoke."

http://www.amazon.com/Until-Proven-Innocent-Correctness-Injustices/dp/0312384866/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303245623&sr=1-1

[struggle4progress]

174. No, that's by KC Johnson. I followed his blog at the time, and he quite careless with facts.

Johnson was motivated by rightwing political considerations. He regularly misrepresented details, such as: what Duke faculty said or other events in Durham. When someone finally attempts an impartial examination of the story, Johnson's little screed won't stand up

[pnwmom]

176. The primary author is a very well regarded journalist.

Whatever KC Johnson's right wing leanings, he was one of those who got the word out about the innocence of the Duke students. And I never saw any misrepresentations on his site that came close to the lies of Nifong and Mangum.

[laureloak]

235. DUKE is a fabulous institution!

I have to admit that I was disappointed in the way Pres. Broadhead and the faculty handled this incident but that in no way diminishes the accomplishments of one of the leading research universities in the world.

Mr. Plumbob, maybe you should reach up and brush that chip off your shoulder as you might have to depend on DUKE to save your life someday.

[plumbob]

262. I do believe that one of the several world class schools here in Texas

are more likely to impact my life. I don't have a chip. You yourself just said you were disappointed in the way they handled it, but are willing to do nothing to make it different next time.

I choose to take action on my disappointment. They're both valid, a matter of choice. You do what you like, and I will do the same.

But threatening me obliquely with the idea that I might need that institution for anything in my life is just silly.

[laureloak]

288. You have attacked DUKE throughout this thread trying to

discredit the institution. And I'm saying that although I wasn't pleased with their handling of this case, DUKE is an incredible school that fosters goodwill across the globe. Their DukeEngage program has set the standard for all institutions of higher learning in making a global impact. So give DUKE credit where it is due and when you're hell bent on bringing it down.

And, BTW, Ted Kennedy chose DUKE over all other medical facilities in the world to treat his cancer. Someday you might do the same, so never say never.

[defendandprotect]

53. Nice post -- a lot we seem to have forgotten about these guys -- !!

Not sure about that last part -- been a long time since I looked at this case --

but as I recall, she arrived early and was seen by the man across the street as

she was standing between houses talking with another female. Not swaying or anything

like that -- not seemingly under influence of alcohol.

Granted later, she seems to have been -- almost drugged?

And interesting reaction by the fraternity brothers who rather than helping her depart

took pictures!



12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

[LisaL]

61. Oh give it a rest already.

All of it was investigated to death. Amazing how some people never give up with their absurd ideas, no matter evidence to the contrary.
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

66. Good suggestion -- !! And given your powerful "debate" ....

I'll put you on ignore!!

Bye --

[LisaL]

73. On ignore? OMG! How will I go on?

:eyes:

[pnwmom]

104. By her own testimony, she had consumed enough alcohol

and Flexeril (a muscle relaxant that interacts with alcohol) to be drunk, during the half hour before she arrived. The effects hadn't hit her at the moment she arrived, but they did soon afterwards.

And the police tested her and she was NOT drugged.

[defendandprotect]

201. You can't have it both ways -- the police said "no alcohol on her breath" --

and Flexeril is a DRUG --

why wouldn't it have shown up in her system that night/early morning?

Unless it is something that is very short-lived?

In which case it could NOT then have accounted for the state she was in upon leaving!!

And the state she was in when police found her -- a state which they presumed was

one of being drugged. Again -- they smelled NO ALCOHOL on her breath.

[pnwmom]

222. She said she had up to 48 ounces of beer before she came.

That is, one or two 22-24 ounce cans of beer.

The police were about to take her to a place that deals with substance abuse, and alcohol is one of the substances they treat there. I don't know where you got the information that the police didn't smell alcohol on her breath, but what difference would that make? She ADMITS taking the Flexeril in the half hour before she arrived, and to drinking up to two giant cans of beer -- a large amount for a small woman, especially in combination with the muscle relaxant.

And the Flexeril DID show up in the toxicology test, along with other legal drugs.

Why do you keep arguing on these points when you aren't making the slightest effort to check the facts?

[WatsonT]

232. Best to just assume the men are guilty of rape

even in the absence of evidence. And even in fact in light of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Sure these guys may be innocent. But what about all the guys who don't get caught?

[pnwmom]

98. None of the 3 accused students did any of the things you mention here.

And the only evidence that ANY lacrosse player threatened to rape someone with a broomstick was a dancer's discredited testimony.

[struggle4progress]

147. From the NC Attorney General's Summary of Conclusions:

"... During the performance, there was sexual banter involving the use of sex toys between Pittman and some of the party attendees. This culminated in one of the attendees holding up a broomstick and suggesting its use as a
sexual object for the dancers ..." http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/final-duke-rape-report-issued

From a player's defense attorney: "... 'My inclination is that there was not any reference to the players' genitalia during their act,' says Mark Simeon, Roberts's lawyer. 'She didn't seem offended at all about the question of using sex toys. What upset her was the brandishing of a broomstick' ..." http://www.newsweek.com/2007/04/22/that-night-at-duke.html

From the NYT in 2006 (emphasis added): "... A photo taken by one player shows two women together on the floor surrounded by seven young men, many holding drink cups. A few minutes later, one of the men said something about using a broomstick in a sexual manner. The dancers stopped. An argument ensued. Using a racial epithet, someone yelled that they had asked for white dancers, not black ones. That much is agreed. It was 12:04 a.m. March 14. The question is, what happened in the next 30 to 50 minutes? ..."
Files From Duke Rape Case Give Details but No Answers
By DUFF WILSON AND JONATHAN D. GLATER
Published: August 25, 2006
news.duke.edu/mmedia/pdf/nytimes825.pdf

[pnwmom]

172. So? None of the 3 accused students was involved in any of that.

There was a videotape which clearly showed who said what to her -- and the three accused were not involved.

And NO ONE at the party was heard to suggest rape.

[defendandprotect]

204. Think the threat of penetration with a broomstick would be frightening --

and we've seen how often males are sodomizing women and other males with

various objects -- from broken plungers and baseball bats -- to flashlights!!

On and on -- PENETRATION!!

Where is this thinking coming from -- ???

[pnwmom]

224. When she's already playing with a vibrating dildo?

No one threatened to rape her with the broomstick -- someone stupidly asked if she wanted to perform with it, as she was performing with the dildo.

[defendandprotect]

239. You see no difference between self-application of a dildo and

someone else in an all male environment offering a broomstick?

Or no link to any of the other events where men have actually penetrated women

with everything from baseball bats to Coke bottles?

[pnwmom]

247. No difference between

the self-application of a dildo and the self-application of a broomstick.

Nothing that was said implied rape. I saw the video, did you? The men at the performance simply looked bored. They were sitting or lying on the floor, some of them looking half asleep.

And she certainly didn't appear to be frightened. It was just a couple women going through the motions, and some men who were probably already realizing what a stupid idea hiring them was.

[defendandprotect]

284. I've seen the video, but quite some long time ago -- why not repost it here ...?

Think we should all see it again -- !!

[defendandprotect]

203. Ah, yes -- the broomstick -- !!! Thanks for the reminder and links --

12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.

[pnwmom]

225. Seligmann was on the cell phone with his girlfriend for much

of that time, and made arrangements to leave the party. When it became apparent that he had a solid alibi, Crystal decided to change the time of the attack to 11:35- midnight. So the fact that there are no photos during that period is meaningless.

[defendandprotect]

240. "for much of that time" ....

In the end, I think the woman said Seiligmann wasn't involved --

but Nifong suggests she is being intimidated.



12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.


There is little about this case which is "meaningless" -- !!

[pnwmom]

249. Nifong is a proven liar and anything he "suggests" is without any credibility.

There is no significance to the 27 minute period with no pictures. Her final story was that she was raped between 11:35 and 12:00 -- NOT after 12:03, when your "27 minute gap" began.

And the other dancer who was present the whole time? Why do you pretend she wasn't there? She says that she and Mangum were never separated for more than a few minutes, during the whole evening, and therefore the attack could not have occurred.

So the only witness says Crystal's lying.
The DNA shows she's lying.
The bank photos show she's lying.
The cell phone records show she's lying.
Her different choices of attackers in the photo line-ups show she's lying.
Her wildly varying descriptions of the attack show she's lying.
Her own "boyfriend's" testimony shows she's lying.

Nothing Crystal says can be believed
and the whole case, in the end, was based on nothing
but Crystal's testimony.

Case closed.

[defendandprotect]

283. Nifong is also an INCOMPETENT liar --

12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.

There is no significance to the 27 minute period with no pictures. Her final story was that she was raped between 11:35 and 12:00 -- NOT after 12:03, when your "27 minute gap" began.

You seem to be trying to create the impression that you were there -- were you?

Let's be clear, even if you were there, you still might not know what happened in a bathroom

for 5 minutes, or 10 minutes -- or 15 minutes -- would you?

And the other dancer who was present the whole time? Why do you pretend she wasn't there? She says that she and Mangum were never separated for more than a few minutes, during the whole evening, and therefore the attack could not have occurred.

Because the other dancer says at one point that Crystal was actually out of her view and that,

yes, something could have happened. Then she retracts it.

Crystal absolved Seigelman -- was she "lying" then?

Meanwhile -- as I've said -- I don't have time for this right now -- and the subject will

be up again shortly, I'm sure.

So signing off for now -

[ButterflyBlood]

220. Uh, that was a reference to the movie American Psycho

Which was directed by a woman for the record.

[JVS]

81. I wonder if the Duke lacrosse team will show up at her trial.

[pnwmom]

109. I doubt if any of them wants to have anything more to do with her, ever.

[WatsonT]

233. In case she needs a character witness?

[houstonintc]

82. Which group of college athletes is to blame?

I'm sure the Crystal defenders are still aching for a juicy narrative fitting story out of this woman.

[moobu2]

119. I have a pretty good bullshit detector

and realized right away Crystal was lying. I've personally met several women exactly like her i.e. women who threatened to make false rape or molestation accusations against a guy they perceived as disrespecting them for some reason or another, so, she didn't fool me for a second, but, I didn't make many friends when I defended the lacrosse player back then on DU. Oh well....I was right again as usual (joking - kind of).

[defendandprotect]

206. We should resurrect some of those threads ... could be interesting --

[NightOwwl]

124. Haha I can't believe there are still people defending this woman.

While at the same time still trying to drag the guys who were falsely accused accused through the mud.

Republicans love attitudes like this...it's where they get some of their best talking points.

[pnwmom]

126. Back then, her supporters were accusing the rest of us

of not being progressive enough for not jumping into the Mangum fan base.

[moobu2]

137. Yes, I remember that well. All I said back then

was that there wasnt any physical evidence to support her story and that I have had the unfortunate experience of knowing several women that threatened to accuse someone of this exact same thing because of some frivolous slight they thought the other person had given them. Anyway, ALL the players had denied the charges, and there hadn't been a TRIAL yet... so I thought it best to give the lacrosse players some degree of the benefit of doubt until such time. But then everything came out, as we all know. But I remember how people acted about this here on DU and it was a little disappointing.

[defendandprotect]

214. Two interesting points from the article ....

Friends said Mangum has never recovered from the stigma brought by the lacrosse case and has been involved in a string of questionable relationships in an attempt to provide stability for her children. Vincent Clark, a friend who co-authored Mangum's self-published memoir, said he hopes people don't rush to judgment — echoing one of the oft-cited lessons of the lacrosse case itself.

Clark said Mangum realizes she has mental health problems.

"I'm sad for her. I hope people realize how difficult it is being her," Clark said.

-- and wonder if anyone has read her "memoir"? Three children?



Also --

A federal judge recently ruled that the three players accused of rape — Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and Dave Evans — can pursue a lawsuit against former District Attorney Mike Nifong and the police investigators who handled their case. The players have not sued Mangum.

Could be very interesting --- !!!





12:03 a.m.-12:30 a.m. – There is a 27-minute gap where no photos were taken.

[LisaL]

227. Mr. Clark is sad for her? Really? What about her alleged victim,

who is dead? Does Mr. Clark feels sad for him and his relatives?

[plumbob]

228. Interesting that the three are now considering suing in federal court for civil damages

after all those lacrosse-boy lovers insisted they just want to quietly move on with their shattered lives.

Looks like they'd like to pick up some cash, too.

[MellowDem]

229. Lacrosse-boy lovers...

wow, you got a lot of hate and bigotry in you. Do rich white "boys" always get you so worked up?

[plumbob]

230. Oh, do you think that it was the lacrosse-boy haters that were saying

they were not in it for the money?

Where do you find the hate or bigotry?

These were boys, not a one of them legal age to be an adult when all this happened.
They certainly played lacrosse (I guess, at least everyone said so)
They certainly have people who love them and will defend them against any and all charges.

So, "Mellow", do you often get this worked up over accurate language?

[slackmaster]

250. They are victims of someone bearing false witness, and deserve to be compensated for damages

Do you understand the concept of damages, plumbob?

[plumbob]

263. What were their damages? My understanding from their supporters on this

thread is that they are content to continue working towards their future Nobel Peace Prizes and only want to put all memory of this murderin' stripper aside.

[slackmaster]

267. The damage to their reputations is self-evident right here in this thread

Especially in posts like yours.

[LisaL]

270. Exactly. Clearly some people never give up their absurd

beliefs, no matter what.

[plumbob]

271. You do realize that civil damages must be proven in dollars, right?

So who gets sued for how many dollars?

[pnwmom]

277. At least the millions they spent in attorneys fees and court costs. n/t

[plumbob]

286. They apparently received around $20 million each from Duke in 2007.

But at least one of them didn't pay taxes on it, it would seem.

http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/tax/irs-sticks-former-duke-lacrosse-player-and-accused-rapist-65m-tax-bill

IRS sticks former Duke lacrosse player and falsely accused rapist with $6.5M tax bill

The name Reade Seligmann has been out of the headlines for awhile, but lately he's been back in the limelight. He was one of three Duke University lacrosse players who were accused – and eventually exonerated – in a racially charged rape case. Seligmann is now a law student at Emory University in Atlanta. And… according to public records, he now owes nearly $$6.5 million in federal taxes.

The lien was filed in New York City on February 17, in the amount of $6,492,377 and relates to income from 2007. That was the year Seligmann, now age 24, reached a settlement with Duke University. Though the amount of the settlement was never disclosed, the federal lien raises speculation that the tax liability is based on a settlement approaching $20 million. This is according to tax attorney Jeffrey Freeman of Birmingham, Alabama, a specialist in civil and criminal tax cases. Freeman told reporters at the Detroit News that this is the income that would be necessary to generate a tax bill of $6.5 million.



Well, this is probably all just politically motivated, because this saint would never do anything wrong, would he? That danged IRS is always sticking it to rich white people while black strippers get to keep their bucks tax free! What an unjust world!!

[pnwmom]

287. The bill no doubt includes substantial interest and penalties,

which that $20 million estimate wouldn't account for. But I'm glad that Seligmann got a good settlement. Maybe next time Duke or another college will think twice before throwing its students to the wolves for fear of bad publicity. (Duke knew, for example, that all 46 students had voluntarily given DNA, but kept silent when Nifong pretended that they hadn't cooperated.)

Duke University and its hospital, with its "nurse-in-training" shared the blame for the damages to the students. Fortunately, the students didn't listen to Duke's very self-serving advice not to get lawyers.

[plumbob]

289. So who will they sue next, since they are in federal court seeking permission to do so.

Duke has settled.

Perhaps the state? They have money.

[pnwmom]

290. The city of Durham employed Nifong, so they're responsible, too.

If you don't like the settlements, you shouldn't be blaming the students -- you should blame all the people who let Nifong ride roughshod for almost a year.

[plumbob]

291. I just think that it's funny when all the talk about "justice" comes down to $$$.

Funnier yet when a law school student at a mid-level school screws up the taxes on it.

Now THAT's entertainment!

[pnwmom]

292. Money is the only way we have for paying damages.

Unless you think the people who were responsible for this railroading -- not just Nifong, but all his helpers -- should have to sit in the stocks for a year, or go to prison themselves. (That wouldn't be a bad idea for Nifong, IMO.)

[pnwmom]

276. Millions of dollars in attorneys fees, and a year out of their lives.

[onenote]

253. have people who will defend them against any and all charges?

Maybe there are such people, but I haven't seen them here at DU. What I've seen here are people who will defend them against false and malicious charges and misstatements of fact and law.

[pnwmom]

260. Eighteen has been the age of adulthood for several decades now.

If the college-age defendants were African American football players, would you have called them "football boys"?

[plumbob]

264. So they can purchase alcohol legally? North Carolina doesn't think so.

http://www.ncabc.com/education/college/nclaws.aspx

Under 21

NC Laws

North Carolina General Statue 18B-302, makes it a criminal offense to aid, abet, sell or give alcoholic beverages to anyone under the age of 21. Attempting to purchase alcohol under the age of 21 or by using a fake or altered identification document is a criminal offense.

If you are 21 years old or over, you could be held responsible in civil court, under the DRAM SHOP laws, if underage persons are allowed to consume alcohol while under your supervision and/or provide, facilitate or aid underage persons in consuming alcohol resulting in death or serious injury. North Carolina laws allow damages up to $500,000.00 per occurrence.


So can adults to adult things or not? Or if there are adult things adults can't do, what are those things called? Post-adult?

Really?

Nice strawman on the other.

[pnwmom]

266. Doesn't matter. 18 is the age at which you can sign legal contracts

and thus is the legal age of adulthood. Most states deny alcohol to young adults. That doesn't change the legal age of adulthood.

And the example of "football boys" isn't a "straw man." It's an analogy. You know as well as I do that referring to the supporters of African American football player defendants as "football boy lovers" would be considered offensive, and rightfully so.

[plumbob]

272. Confusing age of majority with adulthood? Well, that's understandable.

:beer:

[pnwmom]

275. Confusing adulthood with drinking alcohol?

Well, lots of people do that.

[defendandprotect]

237. Evidently Nifong has already taken "bankruptcy" -- however ...

and keep in mind that I am one of those who feels that something did happen

that night -- I'm sure there were huge amounts involved for the families, though

seemingly they were quite privileged compared with this woman.

Everything is so out of kilter in America regarding justice that I'm actually amazed

when anything like it actually happens any more!!

Just beginning to review all of this stuff -- and a lot which happened later and

trying to catch up.

If you recall, near the end -- the young woman withdraws her accusation against one

of the players. And that's a question for me -- why? Nifong says intimidation and

certainly there was tremendous pressure on her to retract.

Still a lot to review and doubt I'll have time for it all --

but can only trust that time may bring more insight on all of this???

:)

[pnwmom]

261. Why did she withdraw her accusation against one of them?

Simple. Because she realized that no matter what time she said this attack occurred, he had an alibi. Better to cut him loose.

[defendandprotect]

285. Well, Nifong says intimidation -- and certainly this woman was being threatened ...

from day one to the very end --

I have no idea why Crystal retracted -- and neither do you.

You're guess is no better than anyone else's --

Meanwhile --

again -- I'm signing off for a while -- and if I have time will resurrect

my old info on this.

Again -- I'm sure the Crystal matter will be with us in the weeks to come and

we'll have other opportunities to debate this -- right now we're both just

repeating ourselves.

[pnwmom]

259. I hope they sue and are successful. The prosecutor was out of control.

Is that the kind of justice system we should have? Where a prosecutor embarks on a false prosecution in order to improve his primary election chances?

And those students families had to spend millions on their defense. They deserve compensation.

[plumbob]

265. So it really is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$ after all?

(sigh)

I'll have to take them off my future saints' calendar, then.

Can't wait for every person acquitted of any crime in any jurisdiction to sue over it.

[pnwmom]

268. Anyone who is attacked by a politically motivated prosecutor

who deliberately withholds exculpatory information SHOULD sue, to help prevent further abuses down the line.

[plumbob]

273. Any elected official is politically motivated.

:tinfoilhat:

[pnwmom]

274. Not all elected prosecutors will withhold exculpatory evidence.

But I agree, I'm not comfortable having elected prosecutors or judges.

[WatsonT]

234. Falsely accusing someone of rape should carry a stigma.

Her life should be difficult. At least as difficult as it would have been for the men she was trying to destroy.