Al Franken To Steve Jobs On iPhone Tracking: I Want Answers

[meegbear]

Source: TalkingPointsMemo.com

Sen. Al Franken (D-MN) wants answers. After reports Wednesday that Apple's iPhones and iPads secretly store information of the user's location, Franken wrote Apple CEO Steve Jobs a strongly worded letter. "The existence of this information -- stored in an unencrypted format -- raises serious privacy concerns," Franken wrote.

According to O'Reilly Radar, who broke the story, the Apple products log "latitude-longitude coordinates along with a timestamp." The fact that the data is unencrypted and unprotected, they report, means it could be easily accessed if it lands in the wrong hands. The devices store about a year's worth of data, the researchers found. Their full report can be found here.

"It is also entirely conceivable that malicious persons may create viruses to access this data from customers' iPhones, iPads, and desktop and laptop computers. There are numerous ways in which this information could be abused by criminals and bad actors," Franken wrote.

Franken expressed special concern for iPhone and iPad users who are minors, writing that an "estimated 13% of the 108 million iPhones and 19 Million iPad devices sold are used by individuals under the age of 18."

Read more: http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/04/al-franken-to-steve-jobs-on-iphone-tracking-i-want-answers.php?ref=fpblg

[wtmusic]

1. Encrypted or not, it shouldn't be stored. nt

[nykym]

2. Say like maybe law enforcement!

"It is also entirely conceivable that malicious persons may create viruses to access this data from customers' iPhones, iPads, and desktop and laptop computers.

Michigan law enforcement;
http://www.geekosystem.com/cellebrite-cellphone-hacker/

[Taverner]

16. If I were promoted by how many people I can set up for a conviction, I would do that

Also - that would assume I had no ethics...

[onehandle]

3. There is talk of an update for iPhones coming to remove this. It didn't exist until recently...

...and may have actually been a leftover from testing the current system.

[Tippy]

4. Simple Slution Don't Buy iPhone iPad

[onehandle]

5. Or Android. Google sells your surfing habits to marketers. nt

[tridim]

7. Google doesn't track your physical location to the second.

Only Apple does that.

[onehandle]

22. That's total bullshit.

You make it sound like someone is watching a monitor.

The data is imprecise and not collected by Apple.

[jayfish]

24. The data is precise.

The folks who wrote the iPhoneTrack application, which plots the data, artificially defuse the results.

http://petewarden.github.com/iPhoneTracker/#8

To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in you’ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately.

How do you know what Apple is doing or planned to do with the data? The iPhone ecosystem is closed.

[onehandle]

28. From your link:

'As far as we can tell, the location is determined by triangulating against the nearest cell-phone towers. This isn’t as accurate as GPS, but presumably takes less power. In some cases it can get very confused and temporarily think you’re several miles from your actual location, but these tend to be intermittent glitches.'

Which is what I have read elsewhere.

Additionally, as reported at your link, the data is not going to anyone. Not Apple, not the government, nobody.

[RoccoR5955]

33. ALL cell phones triangulate. It's the nature of the beast.

Otherwise they wouldn't be able to work. You don't think that the phone company has a record of all this activity? Think again. And it's not illegal for them to distribute it any way they want to, because the 4th amendment protects us from GOVERNMENT search and seizure, NOT corporations.

[onehandle]

50. Well, let me know when Apple comes to collect iPhones for this data.

Then it will be a story.

In the meantime, nobody has this data except the owners.

[DireStrike]

53. Because there's no way for cell phones to transmit data

[onehandle]

56. The group that re-reported this itself says that it's not being transmitted.

Look upthread. It's stranded on the users devices.

And incidentally, any cell phone can be tracked, smart or not.

[jayfish]

83. Keep grasping.

Let's see. We have, everyones doing it "to make better phones". Then we jump to "the data isn't precise". How does that help make better phones?. Finally the data doesn't get used because it "isn't being transmitted". I which case it's really, really helping make better phones. What is this for exactly again? Oh yeah! We don't know. You even threw a couple "look! teh Google" in there. Because Apple's so above board we need to look at Google/Android for doing the same thing. What's next? Microsoft made Apple do it?


ON EDIT: Crap! I missed, "it's a bug". Of course it is. :eyes:

[Devil_Fish]

70. +1. HAHA NT

[Hissyspit]

42. Location tracking and logging also on Android:

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/mlcastle/5641787212

"Not quite as accurate or intrusive... Still dangerous and obnoxious..."

[onehandle]

51. Nobody cares because Apple is the top dog.

They have no clue how dominant is in our online lives.

iPhone makes for a better headline, because they revolutionized the mobile space.

[hlthe2b]

117. Not true. Update to the article last night confirmed android caches as well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x939554

[jayfish]

125. I'm not seeing that info anywhere.

If it is true though. Buy Windows! :rofl:

[hlthe2b]

126. Google is your "friend"... Provided one link earlier. Here's another

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/android-phones-also-track-user-locations/

Android phones also track user locations

Following reports of the iPhone location tracking capabilities, a Swedish researcher has found that Android phones are doing the same.

On Wednesday, a discovery was made that could result in every divorce lawyer in the country opening a meeting with a new client with the question: “Does your other half have a smartphone?”

The discovery revealed that since last June, when Apple released iOS 4, the iPhone (and iPad) has been capable of collecting data on the movements of its owner. Although it’s thought that the data is not being passed on to a third party or utilised by Apple itself, the news may have come as something of a shock to iPhone users who value their privacy.

The surprising revelation might have caused some owners of Android phones to scoff in derision from across the digital divide at Apple advocates who worship their phones. “Unbelievable,” they may have whispered quietly under their breath while gently caressing their beloved Android phone.

But it has now emerged that phones running Google’s Android operating system are also recording the same location information as their Apple counterparts.

According to a report in the UK Guardian, the discovery was made by a Swedish researcher by the name of Magnus Eriksson. He has shown that smartphones running the popular Android operating system also record the location of their users, albeit for a shorter length of time. Eriksson says he was prompted to take a look under the bonnet of an Android phone after hearing about the iPhone’s location tracking capabilities.

The Guardian report says that Eriksson’s research uncovered the fact that Android devices “keep a record of the locations and unique IDs of the last 50 mobile masts that it has communicated with, and the last 200 Wi-Fi networks that it has “seen”. These are overwritten, oldest first, when the relevant list is full.”

What, if anything, happens to this data is not yet clear, but what is becoming increasingly obvious is the massive weight placed on the growing importance of location-based services, a market which research firm Gartner says is currently worth $2.9 billion, and growing fast.

***********************
Still not satisfied? Track down the UK Guardian original story referenced. :shrug:

[jayfish]

128. I Was looking at the Engadget story.

Sorry... No one should be doing it whether it's Apple, Google, MS or HP/Palm.

[hlthe2b]

131. Sorry, I'm a little sensitive as some don't want to hear...

that there could be an issue with their particular "brand." Having had an android based smart phone for a short time at work, and now with a personal iphone, I would definitely want to know if this affected the phone in my pocket, regardless of whether it is, as you say, Apple, Google, MS or HP/Palm.

I'm just hoping this is just a "bug" or something that affords a reasonable explanation (and solution). The worst possibility is if this has come as a result of a secret agreement between the Federal Government and the companies. Ok, that's all the tin foil I can muster for today...;)

[jayfish]

132. No harm, no foul.

I figured we just has our signals crossed.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DCKit]

8. All of whom seem to be here, unreccing this thread. nt

[arikara]

9. Well I'll rec it

cause I have no use for big brother. Which is another very good reason not to fry my delicate brain cells with an i-phone.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

13. I'm reccing because I have an iPhone and want answers too. nt

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Incitatus]

100. Some fanboys may be employees, family members of employees,

or perhaps stockholders. Either way, Big Brother loves them and thanks them for their support.

[tridim]

120. Can you figure out why my post was deleted?

It broke no rule that I know of.

:shrug:

[Incitatus]

134. I have no idea.

I don't believe you broke any rules either. An overzealous mod who didn't like your point?

[tridim]

135. Probably, but based on the content it has me a bit concerned.

Do we risk censorship if we disagree with what Apple (or another company) is doing?

Scary stuff.

An answer from Skinner or a mod would be nice.

[jayfish]

10. Rep. Ed Markey Too...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/04/rep-ed-markey-wants-privacy-answers-from-steve-jobs-again.ars

Questioning Apple's privacy policies has become a bicameral proposition. Twenty-four hours after researchers provided a new open-source tool for iPhone users to view their phone's logged location history, Senator Al Franken (D-MN) and Representative Ed Markey (D-MA) have both issued sets of questions for Apple CEO Steve Jobs. While Franken's letter requests a "prompt" response, Markey wants answers "within fifteen business days."

[wowimthere]

11. Disturbing. What's more insulting is that telcom companies believe they have the Right to

track you, use your information the way "they" see fit after you buy their product. If I buy a lamp, the store that sold it to me doesn't have a right to it after I've paid for it. These companies and the government seem to feel that they have rights that really aren't inherently theirs. If I buy a product I should feel like it is MINE! Tracking seems to indicate that your use of their product isn't really a right after purchasing it. Go Al!!!

[Jello Biafra]

14. Isn't that what the Patriot Act is all about? n/t

[wowimthere]

15. Yeah... you're right. Absolutely. I just think it's all pretty vexing. A president lies us into

war with the governments approval and they want to track our every move? Ain't that something. It seems our officials need tracking. Hard to keep up with all the shit they pull. I don't understand why these tel-coms want to act like well... officials instrumental in designing the patriot act... after we buy their products.

[stockholmer]

107. because the largest private corporations/banks ARE the government

[woo me with science]

41. "If I buy a lamp, the store that sold it to me doesn't have a right to it after I've paid for it. "

"If I buy a lamp, the store that sold it to me doesn't have a right to it after I've paid for it. "

You nailed it.

This mentality is dangerous, and it is spreading.

You also see it in new automobiles that come equipped with a computer system only the dealer can access. You must return to them for service and pay their prices, and they can even demand you come in for maintenance at specified intervals, or your warranty can be voided. You can't go to an independent mechanic anymore, unless that mechanic has purchased the right to the system from the dealer. No more getting a good deal from your brother-in-law or a discount mechanic you know. In effect, you end up leasing a car that you should rightfully own.

Computer software companies are doing it, too. Many games now require you to have an internet connection that gathers data in order to play. They also will allow you only three or five installations of the game on your computer before disabling it, because they assume that multiple installations mean you are pirating the product. It couldn't possibly be that you reinstalled the program because of viruses or some other reason. Again, you end up leasing the game instead of owning it.

These strings on products, whether they are gathering information about you, sucking additional money from you, or preventing your continued use of something you supposedly purchased, are simply wrong.

Once you pay for something and walk out the door, it should be yours.

We need legislation to address this nonsense before it goes any further and infects other products we buy.

[Nay]

44. I may be wrong, but since private companies are not the govt, then they

can track their customers however they want, whenever they want. Govt is constrained by (what's left of the) Constitution, companies are not. It is incumbent upon the customer to reject items like this creepy phone.

[nolabear]

12. Gee, kinda makes me wish I had a more interesting life.

There she is, playing Scrabble in the checkout line of the QFC again...

[2banon]

59. making light of this matter may be fun now,.. but you could regret it in the future.

that's what should be kept in mind.

[cbdo2007]

17. Wow, anybody tracking me is going to be bored out of their gourds.

Really I can't see this being a problem for anyone except maybe celebrities and politicians and criminals.

[Maat]

23. Do me a favor and go secure a copy of the U.S. Constitution ..

and Bill of Rights. Please particularly focus on the Fourth Amendment. Please consider sticking up for your guaranteed freedoms. The rest of us would appreciate it. See, when you let the Powers That Be piss on your rights - well, unfortunately, ours go down the drain also.

[cbdo2007]

35. You don't have a right to have an I-phone. See, this is where capitalism takes over.

If people don't like this, don't get an I-phone. If enough people don't get an I-phone Apple will change this. It doesn't have anything to do with the Fourth Amendment.

Personally I wouldn't own a product if I found out it was tracking and recording my movements, so my rights are doing just fine. Yours are too, just get the same phone as me and Apple will go out of business.

[2banon]

61. The point is, that is was a secret. Consumers were not informed.

And by the way, I didn't hear this factoid mentioned on Market Place last evening, when the subject of the iphone market gains were being discussed.

[pokerfan]

66. I am reminded of a West Wing scene

The Short List (s1e9)

SAM: Put him on a bus.

TOBY: Mr. President, if this is really about abortion, we already talked about...

SAM: It’s not about abortion. It’s about the next 20 years. Twenties and thirties, it was the role of government. Fifties and sixties, it was civil rights. The next two decades, it’s gonna be privacy. I’m talking about the Internet. I’m talking about cellphones. I’m talking about health records, and who’s gay and who’s not. And moreover, in a country born on a will to be free, what could be more fundamental than this?

[2banon]

69. Wow! Nice Recall! I don't even remember that..

:thumbsup:

Might have missed that particular episode or scene, but I was a die hard fan.

Interesting that you have that verbatum..?

But I agree it's right on point! and precisely describes our concerns. Why others seem to be dismissive of this issue is beyond comprehension.. It might be a generation gap thing.. :shrug:

[pokerfan]

73. It was a very passionate plea.

Probably why I remember it. They had a choice between nominating someone who was wishy-washy on privacy but a slam-dunk in the senate and the Edward James Olmos character: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_oo39VgwwI#t=3m21s.

[2banon]

140. omg ..i just watched this twice..it should be fb'd and sent out to Obama;s staff

Congress Critters too. amazing script, wonderfully delivered. thanks for the link! :thumbsup: :applause:

[pokerfan]

141. I like how Bartlett touches on enumerated rights

BARTLET: Peyton, do I have the right to put on an ugly plaid jacket and a loud polka-dot tie and walk down Main Street?
HARRISON: Yes.
BARTLET: Where in the Constitution is that right guaranteed?
HARRISON: First Amendment. Freedom of expression.
BARTLET: What about the use of cream in my coffee? Surely, there can be no free speech argument to be made there?
HARRISON: No.
BARTLET: So you have no objection to the state of New Hampshire passing a law banning use of cream
in coffee?
HARRISON: I would have strong objection, Mr. President, as I like cream as well, but I would have no Constitutional basis to strike down the law when you brought this case to the Supreme Court.
BARTLET: As I lose the votes of coffee drinkers everywhere.

These fucking "strict constructionists" need to have one of the amendments tattooed on their foreheads:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution">Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights,
shall not be construed to deny or disparage others
retained by the people.

[2banon]

148. Never ever hear about the 9th amendment.

from the teabaggers or the these so called strict constructionist.. the hypocrisy and cherry picking is astounding..

[w0nderer]

67. what phone doesn't track?

what cellphone do you have that doesn't use standard cellphone technology?

all gsm phones track location to an extent so as to make choices on which towers/tranceivers to use, it's part of how they operate
most of them record it/cache it at least for a while, to speed up access in areas often visited

examples would be:
nokia (google netmon / service menu ) (the one i put in netmon was 7+ years ago and it would let me track myself to 150 meters+/- once i mapped out the towers in my area ) all I did was make it tell me data it was already getting and caching

all androids do it to some point too
https://github.com/packetlss/android-locdump
will let you dump that information

further information
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking

i'm not defending apple or anyone else
just saying how the tech works

[pokerfan]

80. I don't think anyone is complaining about the tracking per se

but rather the lack of encryption and the maintaining of logs and history...

At the presentation, Alasdair Allen and Pete Warden opened the file on one of their phones and found more than 21,138 data points collected over 293 days—that’s more than 70 times a day that the iPhone recorded locational data. Users clearly don’t know this is happening, and there’s no clear way to delete this data without hacking your iPhone.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/iPhone-Tracking-Is-News-To-Us-paidcontent-221494325.html?x=0&.v=1

[primavera]

113. Are we confident any other cell phone company is any different?

First of all, let me say that I DO care about privacy and the very first thing I do with any new phone is turn off the GPS. Still, my understanding is that every time you use the device to make a call or enable the GPS for map/location services, or even to be able to receive an incoming call, the device, of necessity, has to know where you are to function. Is it really plausible to believe that telecom companies don't retain this information as our devices feed it to them? Is storing that information locally on your device substantively different than Verizon and AT&T storing it on their servers?

[pokerfan]

133. There is no need to maintain a year's worth of data

If you're suggesting that other phones/carriers are doing the same, then I guess the burden of proof is on you to support such accusations.

[primavera]

137. I honestly don't know, but have you ever looked at one of your bills?

Just reading my cell phone bill has pages and pages of detailed transaction records, each coded with its own unique identifying number, for every time so much as a single byte of data was transferred to or from my phone. The entries have all sorts of detail about time and place, and that's just the information I can see, the info that the cell phone company has elected to share with me. I'd frankly be surprised if AT&T wouldn't be able to tell which cell phone tower each of those transactions involved. In terms of retention of data, those statements are presumably retained by the cell phone company for not just one year, but probably several years.

Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not defending Apple. Rather, my apprehension is that what they're doing isn't substantively different from what other companies are doing. If the only difference here is that the iPhone is storing locally a copy of the information that the phone carrier is already storing on their servers, is that an important difference? Or should the focus of our anger be at all cell phone providers for not respecting that their customers have privacy rights?

[pokerfan]

138. There is no need for servers to archive a year's worth of tracking data

I agree on the multiple pages of billing info. For that matter, does anyone really read their EULA? They could claim the right to your firstborn somewhere in the fine print on page 17. Which is why privacy legislation is needed.

[primavera]

142. Don't even get me started on contracts of adhesion...

... I'll start foaming at the mouth, it makes me so angry. The notion that anything a corporation prints in microdots hidden amongst 50 page contracts is legally binding because the consumer agreed to it freely and willingly strikes me as one of the most preposterous fallacies in our legal system. Yes, the buyer needs to be wary, but the drafter of the contract should also have a duty to not confuse and obfuscate. Moreover, the whole idea of freedom to contract is predicated upon the idea that both parties are free to choose. What freedom of choice does the consumer have if the only way to obtain commonplace services is to sign away all of their legal rights? I suppose one could choose to never buy property, never open a bank account, never get a job, never seek healthcare, never obtain utilities, never get phone service, in other words, you are "free to choose" to return to the Stone Age and live like a hermit in a cave wearing a bearskin, but if you wish to function in the modern world, you have no freedom to choose anything other than to acquiesce to whatever corporate America wants of you. Grrr.... see, I told you I shouldn't get started talking about this stuff. :-)

[w0nderer]

147. you have correct understanding

for the phone to be able to decide which tower to use, it continously connects to multiple towers and keeps track of their strength

each tower of course has an 'ID'

so with 3 towers or more and strength from them one can triangulate a location, precision depending on density of towers, which is basically what the iphone does
3gs (compass enabled phones) also give bearing to tower, making it even easier

and yes, it has to have much of that information to work

and yes, telecom companies keep it, probably at least 6 months if not a year,
i haven't kept track with what has passed lately from homelandsecurity?

anyway hard drives are cheap, compression is cpu cheap, text takes little room, and keeping law enforcement/DHS happy is a good policy for a company

better basic explanation of cellphone workings if you are interested
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone.htm

[tridim]

121. My prepaid phone doesn't track..

and isn't connected to my name/address/credit card at all.

[w0nderer]

143. they all track

actually, if it's a modern (newer than 8 or so years) cell phone, it does track, it's inherent in the design, it has to

shorter term than a year? maybe, most likely even
but if it uses any modern cellular technology it does keep a cache of
tranceiver towers it's in touch with (ie..triangulation data) as well as strength of those towers
as well as a time stamp

if it's not connected to you by name or cc then it would be harder to associate it with you, not impossible for a dedicated person

given location and timestamp data as well as charging data (yes that's also normally logged, actually often enough so is temperature of battery) one could extrapolate that spending 8 hours + in one location and charging there often MIGHT signify "home"
and do a look up on such address to find residents

that'd be into the deep end of digital forensics/playing hunches though

can you get at the databases/caches of all phones? that's another thing completely

given service software (rom / flashing service soft) for nokia? likely you can if you can get the soft, for samsung? probably
, apple or android? a root or jailbreak away, motorola? probably, never had much time to play with motorolas

you could hardware read the memory / dump the phone (takes opening phone and electronics lab conditions (tapping into the chip live))
comparatively speaking this would be cia/nsa/fbi area, not something most home electronics people would play with

or cellubrite it,
http://www.cellebrite.com/forensic-products/ufed-standard-kit.html
most likely this would be either someone working for a phone store or law enforcement

main point: does your phone store some data on tracking? has to, or it won't work

[Maat]

84. Well, I disagree there, too.

What people are really afraid of here is the government getting a hold of data that was obtained without their consent or knowledge, and using it against them in court.

By the way, I don't have an I-Phone. I am concerned, however, about data that is obtained without a customer's knowledge or consent, when reasonable warning has not been given. I am also concerned about the ramifications of this kind of conduct being allowed to continue.

[Occulus]

97. Here's the problem.

Let's take a current, ongoing, real-world example for comparison. Many employers already require drug screens, but, by your logic, if we didn't buy their products because they require drug screens, or if we didn't offer ourselves for hire because of that, the business would go out of business. Yes?

But that didn't happen when drug screens were becoming common practice. Not even close. Most of the time, we don't even know whether they require random testing, scheduled test, or a simple pre-employment screen. It's not as though they advertise the fact! Furthermore, I'm certain that, were a movement to form made of people asking for that information prior to doing business with them, such companies would simply refuse to answer yea or nay to the question. After all, they're a private business- it's their option, right? Right?

So now, today, this very minute, we have employers requiring social networking information, including in some cases the actual passwords to accounts at social networking sites. But if we were to not do business with them, or work for them, they would go out of business, as you claim. Yes?

Except that's not happening because it's beginning with law enforcement! And that right there is how they get you to accept that, gee, maybe it's okay if some jobs require you to give up your password (your fucking PASSWORD, man!) to Facebook or whatever. After all, it's only for law enforcement right now, and we all want them to be honest, don't we?

And so, five years from now, when some or most employers require a data dump from your smartphone on a per-shift basis in order to retain your job, well, that'll be fine, won't it? After all, we can just not do business with them or not work for them and they'll shut down, right? Right?

Bollocks. Balderdash. To put it bluntly, bullshit.

And now for the coup de grace: I don't have a smartphone or a Facebook account. When I Google my full name or variants thereupon, I get NO truly relevant or revealing results. I am invisible to "Teh Google", which means for all practical purposes I'm not "on" the internet. How long will it take for that to be seen as "abnormal", and flag me as "unemployable" because I'm NOT an open book?

Now that these devices are so very ubiquitous, and so very entrenched in our daily lives, we have a serious problem. Once again, law must restrain capitalism. "Just don't buy one" simply doesn't cut it anymore, and is in fact a very childlike view of our society and the interaction between law and business (and especially when considering technology). More and more, the internet and online capabilities of various type are becoming a utility, similar to electricity and running water. I would go so far as to claim, given what we saw happen in Egypt, Japan, and elsewhere, that internet access should be considered a basic human right, along with food, shelter, and potable water.

We don't tolerate our employers requiring copies of our electric bills to flag us for possible cannabis cultivation and potential termination. We don't countenance our collection agencies looking at our electric bills to see if maybe we have a bigscreen TV we really shouldn't have purchased given what we owe. We should not tolerate our movements being recorded without our knowledge or consent by a device we have perhaps purchased outright (or, if it's a friend's device in your car as you take a road trip, a device you never purchased at all in the first place).

This is a very big problem. A simple boycott will not suffice this time. We need legislation, strong legislation, out-and-out prohibiting this kind of data collection and storage without the express and unambiguous permission of the purchaser, and we need to demand that consent be requested and delivered in language understandable by a larger segment of our society than law students (no thirty-page disclosure forms written in legalese).

This is NOT okay. This is NOT acceptable. Nobody on this site should be ho-hum about this; it's happening to too many people, and being done by too many companies, for the effect to be trivial. In a related story, the "Color" app for the iPhone actually turns on the microphone and collects and transmits audio from the mic to the company's servers so the audio signature can be used to determine where you are and who is around you who is also using that application.

That pisses me off even though I don't even have an iPhone. How am I to know whether what I say is being recorded and transmitted by someone else's iPhone? I can't know that. How am I to know if a friend in the car has an iPhone with location services turned on? Should I tell them they have to leave it behind? Would they?

I don't think you're giving this problem enough thought. What I'd like you to do after you read this is to go off somewhere and try to consider all the ways someone around you having one of these devices might compromise your privacy, even though you don't own the device. Don't just assume you know what they're capable of; go read some specs and technical reviews and try to find out what you can about how they collect this information and what they do with it.

Basically, this isn't about the devices I own; this is more and more becoming about the devices owned by the guy sitting next to me. His toys are starting to demolish my privacy, without me being aware of the fact. That's not right no matter how you look at it.

[Incitatus]

101. +1,000,000,000. Excellent post

[cui bono]

105. Excellent post indeed.

"A simple boycott will not suffice this time. We need legislation, strong legislation, out-and-out prohibiting this kind of data collection and storage without the express and unambiguous permission of the purchaser, and we need to demand that consent be requested and delivered in language understandable by a larger segment of our society than law students (no thirty-page disclosure forms written in legalese)."


Might I add that this granting of permission/consent should not be a requirement to using said device or else it's the same thing that poster said but it's the corporation saying it, "don't agree then don't use it". You will get left behind in today's high tech society not using this technology. A lot of people's livelihood depends on their using it.

Ye, we need legislation to put a stop to this and to protect our basic right to privacy from corporations. After all, they ARE the government now.

[stockholmer]

108. so so on point, one of best posts I have read on DU

:toast:

[mountainlion55]

110. Agreed 1000%

Excellent post!:smoke:

[cbdo2007]

114. I understand what you're saying, though comparing hiring practices to

something that may directly harm the consumer, and whether or not to boycott because of them is a really poor comparison.

There have been countless examples of consumers not buying products that were poorly reviewed and/or worked poorly. Every year there are hundreds (thousands?) of products that enter the marketplace that don't survive because not enough people are buying them. If I-phone sales today, after this story broke, were 5 units - Apple would change their policy in 5 minutes. Consumers who know this information and STILL buy the phone are saying that they don't care and are basically agreeing with the policy.

[florida08]

63. thank you

when I see/hear people say...so what I'm not doing anything wrong, I cringe. Most of us aren't but that's not the problem. What can it be used for in the future is. Privacy is being chopped away while the sheep play with their toys.

The problem folks is there was no transparency on this little detail. Had you known and still purchased it ok but that's not what happened.

[TheMadMonk]

102. AND Houston we have a problem.

Apart from the small handful finding alcohol and hormone induced stupidities they released into the public domain, coming back to bite them on the arse, the vast majority of the current generation simply does not have the same views about personal privacy that we oldsters in our 40s and above have.

They're constantly in contact with their "friends network", tweeting their locations, blogging even their bloody bowel movements. A majority would be willing to exchange even more of their privacy (say agreeing to install an app like this which DOES report back to base) for a "gift" or money.

Look at those who deliberately live "Big Brother House" existences with live webcams in every part of their homes. Look at the popularity of the show itself.

For a long time we've all been voyeurs, prying deep into the lives of sport and movie stars. And they became in their way professional exhibitionists for our titilation. Now every second young person you meet is an amateur exhibitionist, who quite frankly doesn't give a shit for his, yours or anyone else's personal privacy above the level of not being subjected to guffaws or sympathetic looks at the urinal.

[jayfish]

129. 40's and above seems to be the right cut-off.

Being a child of the Cold War, it's just ingrained in me to be leery of this stuff. Can you imagine the heads that would roll if this shit was going on and known to the public in the 80's.

[wowimthere]

27. Well then if their the problem why are tel-coms invading average users' privacy?

[cbdo2007]

37. Because consumers allow them to.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. It would be useful to criminals to plot when you are likely not to be home.

Oh hey, he's gone overnight, every saturday, get the moving truck... etc.

[cbdo2007]

36. There are easier ways for them to find this info out than hacking into my cell phone :)

I work from home and could easily tell you all of my neighbors schedules and when they go out of town.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. This could tell you much more.

Such as, how FAR out of town they went. Abberations in pattern.
It could also gather that info much easier than a human looking out their window, watching the neighbors movements, with a simple malware app meant to gather this file off the phone.


Apple saw fit to obfuscate the data when presenting it in it's OWN software application, right? They did that for a reason, not for fun.

[quakerboy]

96. Not really

The way you describe, you would have to be my neighbor to know my schedule. There has to be a connection. I live in a busy area, literally my front door looks out on a strip mall. Even with as much traffic as goes by, I would notice someone I didn't know out there consistently watching long enough to determine the pattern. The connections grow. The chance of being caught grows.

If you can find a way to hack that data remotely, you can hit a house in one neighborhood where you have never before been, then another across town where you have also never been.

[XemaSab]

38. How many people are going to go check their spouse's phone?

Or their child's?

How many cops and DA's are rubbing their hands together and cackling with glee? How many judges are writing up papers allowing the cops to seize the phones of suspected criminals?

Just because it's "your" phone doesn't mean that other people don't have access to it.

[cbdo2007]

75. I'll be checking my spouse and child's phones. They don't have an expectation

of privacy from me. In fact every parent should be keeping tabs on their children.

Like other posters have mentioned, they can already triangulate and find your location using any cell phone technology, and they do already do this, so again this isn't really that big of a deal.

[TheMadMonk]

103. Adulterers & adultresses, wayward kids, estranged partners,...

...battered spouses, stalkees (not all are famous) the list goes on and on and on.

In law enforcement it could be used to short circuit search and seizure laws simply by giving police an itemised itenerary along which to concentrate their searches.

In setting someone up for a fall (or an outright frameup), it makes laying a false evidentiary trail BEHIND a targetted individual a snap. The biggest danger would be in oversalting the trail.

Imagine a serial killer who's victims select themselves by downloading a compromised app. And then select their place of demise as well.

Short of implanting a "tracking chip", there really is no better way of recording a person's movement than "bugging" his mobile phone. An item which most people today would grab before their trousers on their way out of a burning building.

[penndragon69]

18. I never trusted apple,

and i never will.
Just one more step into the Cyber police state.

[freshwest]

31. Still smarting over Adam and Eve getting the munchies, huh?

:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

91. Yeah. Apple's gonna steal all your tin foil.

[AlbertCat]

19. could be abused by criminals and bad actors,

Like Ronald Reagan and Fred Thompson?

[L. Coyote]

45. lovers. husbands, employers, law enforcement, FBI, CIA, NSA, MIA, DOD, IRS, USA,

[Occulus]

94. Not to give employers or potential employers ideas, but

is it really all that far-fetched to imagine a prospective employer requiring this data to determine a potential risk of increased absenteeism?

Many of them already require drug screens, even for low-wage menial jobs or retail work. Some are already asking for the passwords to social networking sites. Not just your username- your password.

How long will it be before you have to sync your smartphone to your employer's computer for a data dump once per shift?

[L. Coyote]

119. Lots of people already do have to sync their employer-owned devices.

And, thoise devices also contain lots of hidden software that tracks workers.

[Uncle Joe]

20. The American People have lost too much of their privacy; in one way or another as it is.

Thanks for the thread, meegbear.

[hunter]

21. It was for a new marketing app, like Clippy from Windows...

"Oh, I see you are going to visit your mistress. Don't forget to buy condoms! Would you like me to recommend a brand she'll thoroughly enjoy?"

[Javaman]

25. More than likely, it's a marketing tool.

a sneaky slimy marketing tool but one never the less.

They track the people who own the ipad or ipod, find out their various travel and buy habits via the places they go to, then sell the information to other marketing firms to target you to buy more useless crap.

[onehandle]

29. Except that the data stays on your devices and is not sent to Apple.

Now if every iPhone owner voluntarily brought in each unit and waited for Apple to hack into your encrypted data, then you might have something there.

[Exilednight]

72. Apple doesn't encrypt the data. n/t

[Devil_Fish]

74. it's not encrypted. NT

[onehandle]

77. You can encrypt your backup through iTunes.

So let me know when that programmer comes to get 'your' iPhone.

[Javaman]

82. not sent to apple yet.

it will be.

don't worry, they have an app for that.

[onehandle]

112. No they don't and now that this error has been spotted, it will be removed.

It's a good thing that it was found.

It's a bad thing that people are jumping to conclusions when even the 'discoverers' say that in its benign.

[Javaman]

115. I was making a joke

Cripes

:eyes:

[onehandle]

116. Sorry.

Everyone is so deadly 'serious' in this thread that I'm having trouble tracking my own data.

;-)

[KurtNYC]

26. Jobs: "iPhone...Disappear me!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aqArfGIHhQ&feature=related

(almost as good as the iRaq)

[RoccoR5955]

32. This is not new, nor is it secret. It's been around for quite some time

It's been around since iOS 3.2, when location services were updated for the first time, and it's not just the iPhone that keeps track of the phone's location. ANY cell phone can track location, and ALL smart phones do. Even if you shut the location services off, you can be tracked on any cell phone, by the way the phone is tracked by the cell towers. They keep track of your call, and hand off to a different tower by the Electronic Serial Number (ESN) which is a part of each and every cell phone. They wouldn't be able to work without it.

At any rate, there's a discussion on the iPhone being old news here: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/iPhone-Location-File-Not-New-Not-Secret-113850

[w0nderer]

144. since sometime 2010 at least

"iOS forensic analysis for iphone, ipad, and ipod touch" by Sean Morrissey mentioned on page 145 then chap 7 and 9

i'm sure there was mention before but since that's when i got my iDevice and the book

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

34. Just turn off...

the "Location Services" found in the settings.

All it does is help with maps, finding a movie theater, etc. and so on.

Yeah, Apple really wants to know all about my fu**ing boring life.

[w4rma]

104. Maybe not your life, but maybe instead someone with a more interesting life.

You should care about that.

[snot]

39. K&R'd! And Al for Prez!

[IamK]

43. Steve Jobs could have Al Franken rubbed out with just a wink,,,,,

Jobs is from the dark side....

[L. Coyote]

46. That pile of crap is still steaming. IGNORE!

Get rational!

[IamK]

88. It was widely known. that..........

Olof Palme publicly disparaged the "Lisa" and then stated "there will never be an Apple in Sweden" and you see what happened to him....

Jobs is an evil bastard .... The Woz said about Jobs..... out of the blue (and I loosely quote) "came in my office and put me in a figure four leg lock and forced me to change all of the window shades at Apple HQ from white to ivory....."

[L. Coyote]

118. Hearsay and rumors are always widely known

That's why they call them rumors :rofl:

[alp227]

47. wow glad i dont own iphone, and that website isn't related to Bill O'Reilly n/t

[HolyCity2012]

48. Al Franken: God Spoke

Al Franken: God Spoke is a 2006 documentary film featuring political commentator and current United States Senator Al Franken.

Al Franken: God Spoke, captures the emergence of Al Franken as a political commentator. The film is shot over the course of two years and follows Franken from his highly publicized feud with Fox News anchor Bill O'Reilly to his fierce campaign against president George W. Bush during the 2004 election.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x561182

[AsahinaKimi]

49. I wonder what Steve Jobs reply will be

or when it will be. This should be interesting..

:popcorn:


"Well, yes sir. It was ordered by a Republican operative with NSA, because they
need to spy..um, I mean, look in on Democrats in the House and Senate. In fact, let me see.. weren't you just standing at Ralph's BBQ at 5th and Cramer street? Having purchased a BBQ chicken on rye bread?? That sounds good sir, I prefer the SUBWAY sandwich place, thats about two feet next to it."

[PJPhreak]

52. .....

..

[craigmatic]

54. Stalking? There's an app for that. nt

[onehandle]

57. Yes. And 70 of them were discovered in the Android store just last month. nt

[2banon]

55. excellent synopsis, excellent letter from Franken..

I didn't care for Franken's radio program on Air America, but I'm quite impressed with his presence in the Senate. He's actions have been a very pleasant surprise.. Go Franken.. and I really like his signature, a work of art. :)

[McCamy Taylor]

58. Knowledge is money. I'll bet a programmer put it in there and sold the info to

a third party for a gazillion dollars. I doubt that Apple management did it deliberately, since the net result would be a pr nightmare when it was discovered.

Maybe Apple needs to pay its programmers more.

[onehandle]

64. Except as reported in the story, the data was not transmitted to anyone.

So unless that programer went physically into their homes, it's unlikely.

[pokerfan]

60. You want answers?

Jobs: You want answers?
Franken: I think I'm entitled to them.
Jobs: You want answers?
Franken: I want the truth!
Jobs: You can't handle the truth!
Franken: Did you order the tracking?
Jessep: (quietly) I did the job the board gave me.
Kaffee: Why did you order the tracking?
Jessep: (raging) Becasue we're a bunch of snooping control freaks!!!

[2banon]

62. LOL! Good one!

:rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause: :rofl: :applause:

[jumptheshadow]

65. I opted into the tracking system

I lost my iPod with all my data. Then I noticed that they had a new OS that enabled you to go to a website, track your iPod, put a lock on it, or wipe the data on it, and relay a message that would appear on the screen.

The loss of my iPod so disrupted my life -- my work e-mail was linked to it -- that I voluntarily downloaded the new OS.

My partner actually logs into the site every now and then when I'm late coming home. I have been known to miss a subway stop or five when I'm deeply engrossed in a book.

I see all the potential misuses of this system but I appreciate it, if you can opt into it.

[Corruption Winz]

68. Thankfully, I still..

send messages via pigeon. The fact of the matter is with technology, this type of thing is bound to happen.

Unfortunate, but it's the price you pay.

[Devil_Fish]

71. I've been wanting to write an app that will let you track your phone from another location.

Loopt is ok, but you can't turn it on remotely. I want a Lo Jack app. My wife keeps loosing her phone, and sometimes the finder is nice enough to return it, other times not. I know the damn phone knows where it is. If I am the owner of the damn phone, I should be able to access that info.

[onehandle]

76. iPhones have that ability built in.

Free. You can find your phone on a map from another iPhone or any computer. You can display messages to whoever 'found' it, or if it's stolen, erase your personal information.

http://www.apple.com/mobileme/features/find-my-iphone.html

[Devil_Fish]

87. is there one for the android? NT

[Cronus Protagonist]

78. Bad move by Mr Franken

He should have waited to see how Apple handled it. Now he just looks like a poorly informed chicken-licken.

[onehandle]

79. As much as I love Al, this appears to be grandstanding. Two top tech analysts say it's a bug...

..or a programming oversight that will be corrected in an update.

Meanwhile, another tech analyst says that Android phones do this as well, but in a more time limited way.

Facts are changing by the hour, and I think Al jumped the gun.

[Cronus Protagonist]

85. Yep

Agreed.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

86. Programming oversight? Yeah, right.

All the reaction to the press, including reaction from senators, is probably making Apple do a little back-pedaling.

Oops, we're tracking your every move? Our bad.

No matter. If Apple is going to "fix" this so the machines don't track you without your permission, good for them.

If the tracking could be turned on voluntarily, I'd bet there's a good road rally app in there somewhere.

:hi:

[onehandle]

89. Apple has not commented on the matter yet. nt

[jayfish]

90. I'll tell ya what the programming oversight was.

Prior to iOS4, the file used to store this data was hidden and located on a part of the device that is nigh accessible to the general user. This part of the device is not backed up to a local PC. iOS4 un-hid the file and moved it to the user accessible area of the device. This area of the device is backed up to a local PC. Basically they were hiding this dubious practice all along and screwed the pooch by making it public.

https://alexlevinson.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/3-major-issues-with-the-latest-iphone-tracking-discovery/

2) This hidden file is neither new nor secret.

It’s just moved. Location services have been available to the Apple device for some time. Understand what this file is – a log generated by the various radios and sensors located within the device. This file is utilized by several operations on the device that actually is what makes this device pretty “smart”. This file existed in a different form prior to iOS 4, but not in form it is today.

Currently, consolidated.db lies within the “User Data Partition” on the device. This is a logical filesystem that maintains non-system level privileges and where most of the data is stored. When you perform an iOS Backup through iTunes, it is backing up this partition. Prior to iOS 4, a file called h-cells.plist actually existed in the /root/Library/caches/locationd folder, but with hidden access from other software and applications. h-cells.plist contained much of the same information regarding baseband radio locations as consolidated.db does now, but in Apple Property List format rather than sqlite3. Through my work with various law enforcement agencies, we’ve used h-cells.plist on devices older than iOS 4 to harvest geolocational evidence from iOS devices.

So lets recap.

h-cells.plist = Pre iOS 4 / Radio Logs including Geolocational Data / Hidden from Forensic Extraction (usually)

consolidated.db = iOS 4+ / Radio logs including geolocational Data / Easily acquired through simple forensic techniques

This appears to be the guy who discovered the issue. He thinks he's getting in some good shots but I think he makes things sound worse.

[grahamhgreen]

123. So would using a Jailbroken iPhone with location turned off in SBSettings

prevent this data from being stored?

[jayfish]

124. This is not a part of location services.

The data is being compiled via cell tower and wi-fi triangulation and cannot be turned off through the UI. There is a group that claims they have an app for that and it does require a jailbroken device.

http://technology.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979251233

Good luck!

[w0nderer]

145. sbsettings won't affect it

unless you put the phone in airplane mode with no wifi (turn off all tranceivers on the phone)


for jailbroken device (remember jailbroken==no warranty, this post..same thing, your phone, your responsibility)

untrackerd is the easiest way supposedly, since i chose another way i can't vouch for it

the manual way is to ssh and remove it when you feel it's too big/contains too much data
or just ssh in as root and modify the data using sqlite3 (assuming you know sql/sqlite)

if you take that route make sure you are comfortable with a 'unix' commandline

on ipod touch the path is:
/private/var/root/Library/Caches/locationd/consolidated.db

i can't check if it's the same path on an iphone due to not having access to one currently

[Canuckistanian]

81. That's why I'm glad I don't have an iPhome

I can disable GPS anytime I want. And apps can't turn it on without my knowledge.

Besides, GPS is a battery killer if left on all day.

[w0nderer]

146. not gps

This has nothing to do with GPS

it is celltower data being used

all phones track that
apple tracks it more and more easily accessable than most though

[Jakes Progress]

92. OMG. Did you know that people can use your SS number to take your identity?

The solution must be to never get a SS numberr. Insert sarcasm thingie of your choice.

People. Just delete the data and don't give your phone to strangers. Cheers if your biggest worry about someone hacking your computer is that they find out you were at Starbucks last week. Sure they want to know where you ate lunch, not take you tax records or you personal data or email list. Sheesh.

[Bombero1956]

93. I have a question

I downloaded the app and tried running it and all it does is show a map with the word loading at the top of the screen. Am I using it wrong?

[smiley_glad_hands]

95. With googles latitude, i get access to all my location info. Carriers have it why shouldnt I?

Its an opt in service though, i can see a nice graph that breaks down where i spend my time.

I have no problem with googles service, dunno whats going with apple though. I would like to think google is at least encrypting my info.

[DallasNE]

98. Apple Is Not Capturing That Data For The Fun Of It

So what do they do with this data, sell it to advertisers? And if Apple is doing this how about others such as Research In Motion with Blackberry devices. It this information included in the fine print for these devices or are they running afoul of the disclosure requirements. Unregulated sucks.

[onehandle]

111. Apple does not collect or sell the data. It stays with the user.

Top tech analysts are saying that it is likely a bug in the form of leftover testing code from the beta software.

Nobody is accessing the data, it is not transmitted, and it will be corrected in an update.

[tridim]

122. As far as you know.

Closed systems suck for that exact reason.

[Ter]

99. Al only wants the government to track you, not Apple

His support of the Patriot Act made me finished with him.

[neoralme]

127. Yep. This is all theatrics. The only thing the tracking of the

Iphone can identify is the nearest transmission tower the phone is receiving its signals from. After his support of the Patriot Act Franken became just a name to me, nothing more.

[jayfish]

130. That is simply not true.

The data is very accurate. Keep telling yourself it's not if it makes you feel better though.

[neoralme]

136. You can triangulate to an approximate circle of location. The GPS

is not accurate. The original Iphone did not even have GPS. Myself, I don't care. Very soon, there will be a requirement to wear a locator chip or be fined. We are a fascist State now. My wife and I hope to leave the country early next year.

[mountainlion55]

109. WTF--- what about the 4th amendment!

I'm a real luddite when it comes to alot of the technologies that people use. They are unesessary and cost too much. I use pay as you go cell and don't like it but nowadays its a nessasary evil. Do people really think that all this tech,socail networking like facebook ect does not have an ulterior motive? Namely control of our freedoms and the enrichment of the ruling class. I have my doubts about any of these high tech oligarcs having my best interests in mind. :wtf:

[No Elephants]

139. Gotta love Al.