Nato strike 'kills Saif al-Arab Gaddafi', Libya says

[Viva_La_Revolution]

Source: BBC

A Nato air strike in the Libyan capital, Tripoli, has killed the son of the Libyan leader, Colonel Gadaffi, a government spokesman has said.

Colonel Gaddafi himself was in the house which was hit by the strike, the spokesman added, but he was unharmed.

His son Saif al-Arab was killed, as well as three of the Libyan leader's grandsons.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13251570

---

BreakingNews Breaking News
Update from Tripoli: Moammar Gadhafi was in house hit by NATO missile, escaped injury, Libyan official says - AP

ShababLibya‎ Ibrahim Musa al Gaddafi - spokesman for gaddafi regime claims NATO killed Saif al Arab Gaddafi (younger son) tonight as his house was hit

NATO strike kills Gadhafi's son, Saif al-Arab Gadhafi, Libyan official says - Reuters

[EmmettKelly]

1. Hurumph, the almighty Ronald Reagan could only get

an adopted daughter, that pales in comparison.

[Turborama]

71. A daughter who was adopted posthumously by Gaddafi

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/30/971803/-Questions-regarding-claimed-death-of-Saif-al-Arab-Gaddafi

[Hannah Bell]

119. lol. it was a three year old, if adopted "posthumously" does that make the murder more righteous?

[dipsydoodle]

2. BBC link

A Nato air strike in the Libyan capital, Tripoli, has killed the son of the Libyan leader, Colonel Gadaffi, a government spokesman has said.

Colonel Gaddafi himself was in the house which was hit by the strike, the spokesman added, but he was unharmed.

His son Saif al-Arab was killed, as well as three of the Libyan leader's grandsons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13251570

as well as three of the Libyan leader's grandsons.........

[Turborama]

72. Moussa Ibrahim said they were nieces and nephews of Saif al-Arab

Ibrahim would not give the names of the three children, who he claimed were killed, except to say they were nieces and nephews of Saif al-Arab and that they were younger than 12. He said they are not releasing the names yet to protect the privacy of the family.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/2011430224755721620.html

[Devil_Fish]

3. This is just fucking sad. You go to assassinate Saddam, or Qaddafi, or what ever fuck wad your mad a...

and before you know it, wedding parties are getting bombed by predator drones. How many fucking civilians do you have to kill to take out one dictator? Hell Saddam is dead and we are still over there killing civilians. This country is fucked up.

[barbtries]

5. agree.

i just take no satisfaction whatsoever from this news.

[MadMaddie]

10. Hunh Ghadaffi is not innocent in this event

His oppressive regime has killed thousands of it's own citizens. His citizens have taken up arms against him. His military was bombing by air and helecopters a resistance that had handguns and rifles. Ghadaffi had the chance like other Middle Eastern Leaders to stand down and accept the fact that their citizens are done with them. HE made the decision in his war on the citizens.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8423934/Libya-claims-of-rape-murder-and-kidnap-as-vengeful-Gaddafi-troops-renew-assault-on-rebel-held-Misrata.html


Ghaddaffi using cluster bombs on civilian populations?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42610762/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13251570

Ghadaffi could have gotten his grandchildren out but he didn't. Why? Because he was going to use any means necessary to crush the civilians who don't want to be his slaves anymore. The grandkids should have never been sacrificed by this madman.


Junior should have taken him out years ago but that didn't happen because just like all of the other dictators they were in bed with him.

There is no easy answer, I am not a big fan of violence and war. I do believe in evening the playing field.

[Devil_Fish]

23. The children are Innocent. That's mainly what I'm sad about. NT

[Igel]

25. Not for some.

Guilt is hereditary, or can be displaced to the first bad guy in line. Whatever happens, it must be placed at the feet of somebody that we know is guilty, already, so as to shelter those we like and feel sorry for.

If a little kid reaches for candy after being told no and his father lands a good one so that it breaks his skill, there's always the chance the father will say, "If he'd just done what I said, he'd be okay now, so it's his own damned fault."

[EFerrari]

26. It's not that difficult to recognize that assassination is wrong. n/t

[bhikkhu]

59. The worst kind of person in the world -

is one who puts himself in a position of power over others against their will. The usual eventual thing then is a war to depose a tyrant, where armies of regular people are assembled and arrayed in the field against each other to fight and kill and destroy in merciless battle until "the balance is tipped" and too few are left alive on one side or the other. Then if the tyrant (who has meanwhile been living quite well in his palaces) wins, books and songs are written, and he becomes the hero of the age. If the tyrant loses, then he probably negotiates a comfortable retirement somewhere out of the way.

In either case, in the destroyed villages and cities, while burying the the many dead on all sides of violence, disease, famine, accident and misery, the devastated families ponder whether assassination is really all that wrong.

Again, the worst kind of person in the world is one that puts himself in a position of power over others against their will.

[EFerrari]

61. You could say the same thing for the political elite of NATO

that decided to manipulate the Libyan uprising.

Obama, for instance, is at a party right now, no?

[Hannah Bell]

120. oh, please. libya was not overrun with "violence, disease, famine, accident & misery".

unlike, say, congo, where the us has engaged in decades of proxy war & millions of deaths.

the freaking hypocrisy of all this pious handwringing is soo fucking disgusting.

[bhikkhu]

125. I was speaking of the leaders of war in general

and the "morality" of targeting those responsible for war, rather than the people who follow them. I know you have fixed opinions, but in bending the statement into something you can disagree with you do miss the point.

[stockholmer]

47. I think you really ned to do a deeper dig on the geo-petrol genesis of this, as well as tribal......

dynamic relations in Libya, the standard of living there (amongst the highest in Africa), Libya-Chinese-Russian recent alliances (that the west hates) and the US/UK using al-Quaeda in the eastern part of the country. Also, the quite possible set-up of Libya for the Lockerbie bombing (to cover up CIA rogue drug running ops in Lebanon and Syria), whilst you digging.





Lockerbie evidence 'planted by CIA'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lockerbie-evidence-planted-by-cia-1586487.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from the The Week (UK)

How Megrahi and Libya were framed for Lockerbie

Alexander Cockburn: Amid all the fuss about Megrahi’s early release, there remains strong evidence he didn’t do it

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/66187,news-comment,news-politics,how-abdelbaset-al-megrahi-and-libya-were-framed-for-lockerbie-bombing

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lockerbie Diary: Gadhaffi, Fall Guy for CIA Drug Running (Scoop from The Independent- New Zealand)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1103/S00072/lockerbie-diary-gadhaffi-fall-guy-for-cia-drug-running.htm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

"Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".

Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".

His revelations came even as Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries"....................


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

flashback 2 years (including Young Turks video) more US support of terrorist groups

Saudis and CIA back Khalid Sheikh Mohammad’s Jundullah in Pakistan and Iran?

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/saudis-and-cia-back-khalid-sheikh-mohammads-jundullah-in-pakistan-and-iran
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

flashhback to 2007 (BBC)

Libyan Islamists 'join al-Qaeda'

Zawahri called for North African leaders to be overthrown
A Libyan Islamist group has joined al-Qaeda, according to an audio message on the internet attributed to the radical network's second-in-command.
Ayman al-Zawahri purportedly said the Fighting Islamic Group in Libya was becoming part of al-Qaeda.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7076604.stm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

flasback to 2002 (Guardian UK) French intelligence experts revealed how western intelligence agencies bankrolled a Libyan Al-Qaeda cell

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/nov/10/uk.davidshayler

MI6 'halted bid to arrest bin Laden'Startling revelations by French intelligence experts back David Shayler's alleged 'fantasy'about Gadaffi plot

British intelligence paid large sums of money to an al-Qaeda cell in Libya in a doomed attempt to assassinate Colonel Gadaffi in 1996 and thwarted early attempts to bring Osama bin Laden to justice.
The latest claims of MI6 involvement with Libya's fearsome Islamic Fighting Group, which is connected to one of bin Laden's trusted lieutenants, will be embarrassing to the Government, which described similar claims by renegade MI5 officer David Shayler as 'pure fantasy'


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




The Power of Nightmares, subtitled The Rise of the Politics of Fear, is a 3 part BBC documentary film series, written and produced by Adam Curtis.
The films compare the rise of the Neo-Conservative movement in the United States and the radical Islamist movement, making comparisons on their origins and claiming similarities between the two. More controversially, it argues that the threat of radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organized force of destruction, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is a myth perpetrated by politicians in many countries—and particularly American Neo-Conservatives—in an attempt to unite and inspire their people following the failure of earlier, more utopian ideologies.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5lByw7kvS0&feature=related part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai6LhnW4Oa8&feature=related part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HvzR8w1z2g&feature=related part 3

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

remember, the USA seeds of al-Qaeda started in 1978 and 1979, under Robert Gates of the Carter regime, now he has been the Sec of Defense under both Bush and Obama

[Mimosa]

104. ^ WOW ^ Stockholmer, you put it all together!

Thank you for the effort.

[Firebrand Gary]

65. Thanks for posting Madmaddie, I could not agree more.

[Dokkie]

11. There will be more of this

If theres anything the americans know how to do, it is killing brown people from the sky and dumping depleted uranium rounds in their city so even when the they miss the shot, generation of their enemy would suffer the consequences.

Death from the sky weeewt!!
USA USA USA USA USA USA

Am going to be sick for a while now :(

[The Northerner]

14. +1

[stockholmer]

30. +1, sadly

:(

[aquart]

38. As if we know more about killing than the MidEast!

Wake up! Take a history course. ANY history course.

[ronnie624]

81. The United States has leveled entire countries on numerous occasions.

You are the one in dire need of a history lesson.

[TomClash]

100. You beat me to it - a great point

At a bare minimum, 288,000 muslims in the last 30 years. Probably closer to 1 million.

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_killed_in_the_past_30_years

And that's just for starters.

[ronnie624]

102. Thanks for the link.

A person might concoct a semi-coherent argument for supporting the West's policies in the Middle East (which have always been about controlling resources), but to claim the countries there have killed more people than the U.S. government is odd. One doesn't have to be "anti-American" to recognize the fact that when the U.S. military drops bombs on other countries, lots and lots of people die.

[KurtNYC]

112. What did Libya do to us ? n/t

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

124. You mean, other than downing an airliner over Scotland? n/t

[inna]

88. +1

[crim son]

22. Yep.

It's disgusting.

[aquart]

37. Yeah. We're the only ones who ever did anything like that.

A whole lot of sons and grandchildren are being lost to Libya in this fight. Gaddafi and his family had a fine time for a long time. Frankly, I think it's NICE that there's a price to pay for that.

They had the chance to leave. They decided to fight to the death. This is what that looks like. Death. Root and branch.

It was fine by them to kill as many as it took to remain in power. Payback's a bitch.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mvd]

108. I agree. Doesn't matter to them if kids are killed or anything

All of NATO just seems to be another arm of the Military Industrial Complex. Also, why Gaddafi so important?

[harun]

115. +1

[dipsydoodle]

4. I should think they'll let the dogs loose in the morning.

I would.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

27. How anyone could be pleased about this or find this a way to deal with former "friends of America"

Well... when we Americans become KILLERS...we will suffer more killings of our own people.

If this is true...it's how low the Western World/NATO/UN's has sunk to support WARFARE AND KILLING of INNOCENTS...instead of Diplomacy.

We are indeed heading to WWIII...It's too late.

[Mimosa]

105. KoKo, you see what I'm afraid to predict.

Nobody in the world trusts the USA. Our government 'befriends some leader or dictator, then turns on them whenever convenient.

Remember Karzai said something like that about 2 years ago? He's been hedging his bets with the Taliban.

[medeak]

8. Can we believe Libyan spokesman? n/t

[dipsydoodle]

9. Are you having a laugh.

The live footage is all over UK TV news. The journalists have all been invited to go there at daybreak.

[medeak]

101. experts skeptical in Daily Beast

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-05-01/gaddafi-attack-is-the-libyan-dictator-making-some-of-it-up-for-propanda/?cid=hp:mainpromo1

[bhikkhu]

12. ...as thousands on both sides put their lives on the line

their own lives and the lives of their families, all over the f*k'd up mind of a dictator who won't leave and calls his countrymen dogs and cockroaches...

I have to say, being pretty thoroughly anti-war, I have no particular sympathy for the guys at the top who pen out the orders in their perfumed marble palaces, and who's decisions pit tens of thousands of regular people in struggles to the death with tens of thousands of other regular people.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jakeXT]

13. pretty hole

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/30/us-libya-attack-idUSTRE73T2HV20110430

[tabasco]

15. Too bad for the kids

their father was piece of human garbage that deserved to die.

Now get that lucky SOB Muammar!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pinto]

16. Kadafi son, grandchildren killed in airstrike

Source: LA Times

Kadafi son, grandchildren killed in airstrike
Los Angeles Times | April 30, 2011


Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi survived a NATO missile strike Saturday that killed his a son and three grandchildren and wounded friends and relatives, Libya's spokesman said.

Kadafi and his wife were in the Tripoli house of his son, Saif al-Arab Kadafi , when it was hit by at least one missile fired by a NATO warplane, according to Libyan spokesman Moussa Ibrahim.

The one-story house in a Tripoli residential neighborhood was heavily damaged.

Read more: http://link.latimes.com/r/BLQF5E/71ZIS/NJ3GHN/N3M2W/EKX8Z6/XL/h

[Incitatus]

17. It is clear that they are targeting him. Kadafi is going to die. nt

[Igel]

28. And it's a mistake.

We've done it before, when it could be deemed personal, in trying to off Saddam.

Now that assassination is official NATO policy, there's no moral high ground if somebody decides the just and good thing to do is kill Cameron or Sarkozy, Obama or Merkel--or any of their kids. After all, fair's fair.

Of course, it's only fair if we do it. It's beyond reprehensible if they do it. We get to decide universal morality, after all, and how the universe is when rightly ordered. Even if we have to do the ordering (around).

At least NATO should have the moral conscience to do it in a weaselly way, with poison or exploding potted plants.

[KoKo]

31. I understand what you say and agree...this is a terrible time we live in..Blood Lust..No Controls..

There's not much one can look to these days. It's kill or be killed...who is next? If Obama and his Children were taken out...would there be cheering over this? What if folks see us the same as we are supposed to see them and decide that "WE" are the enemy?

We are NOT THE RULERS OF THIS WORLD...and any Civilization/Empire who ever THOUGHT they WERE RULERS...are now in the History Books as FAIL! FAIL!

This is NOT the AMERICA I WAS TAUGHT about...CONSTITUTION/BILL OF RIGHTS! THIS IS SOMETHING EVIL that has taken hold and it's why we of some Moral/Ethical Persuasion need to FIGHT BACK against this kind of Action.

[aquart]

48. As opposed to what other time?

Really, has NOBODY here read a history book? ANY history book?

How about the Bible? Checked that out for moral warfare?

You've got to stop taking tests with Cliff Notes.

[boppers]

94. Who would kill Obama, and why, vs. who would kill Khadaffi, and why?

False equivalence makes the argument reduced to absurdity. Is Obama at war with US citizens in the south, dropping bombs on Atlanta, rolling tanks through Florida?

Also, the US has a moral right, and legal obligation, to prevent mass slaughter of people by madmen. It's in the Constitution, BTW. The whole thing about "treaties", and our UN treaties, in particular... which obligate us to act to prevent slaughter.

[KurtNYC]

113. What did Gaddafi or his grandchildren do to us ?

we just killed his grand kids. Forget analogies.

The Constitution and the UN do NOT say you can assassinate heads of state, let alone miss and kill children.

How do drones and cruise missiles fired from thousands of miles away "prevent slaughter" ? Seems like just the opposite.

[boppers]

116. How old were you on December 21, 1988?

I'm guessing very young, or you weren't following the news.

Are you also asking what did Osama Bin Laden ever do?

[Hannah Bell]

121. which was after we tried to kill him in 1986.

so obviously "lockerbie" isn't the answer to that question.

good to know the "international community" is ok with assassinating other country's leaders.

[boppers]

123. The question was not "what has he done lately".

...and when they are given an opportunity to surrender to a court of law, without escalating to violence, it isn't assassination.

It's suicide by cop.

It's quite popular among the mentally deranged.

[sabrina 1]

127. If the South took up arms against this president, what

would the US military do about it??

The Consitution DOES NOT give a US president permission to assassinate leaders of other countries, PARTICULARLY when they are not attacking the US.

All of our treaties underscore that we must abide by agreed-upon laws. What law permits extra-judicial assassinations of foreign leaders? Please link me to that law!

Btw, when Bush even hinted at such violations of the law, the 'left' was outraged and called him a 'dictator'. Since when did we come to the conclusion that Bush was right after all?

[aquart]

45. Yup. No "command and control center" excuse here.

NATO wants him gone. Wonder if he'll take the hint.

[boppers]

95. You don't think the leader of the armed forces is a valid target? The top soldier?

He puts on a soldier uniform, he makes himself a legal target.

[Mimosa]

106. Igel, you have just explained why fundamentalist Islam is gaining converts.

Middle Eastern and North African Muslims have nowhere to look but to Allah for justice. They feel persecuted in this world. They are very smart about the history of Western Imperialism.

[pinto]

18. (LA Times update) NATO strike kills youngest son of Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi

From the Associated Press
April 30, 2011

.Libyan leader Moammar Kadafi survived a NATO missile strike Saturday that killed his youngest son and three grandchildren and wounded friends and relatives, Libya's spokesman said.

Kadafi and his wife were in the Tripoli house of his 29-year-old son, Saif al-Arab Kadafi, when it was hit by at least one missile fired by a NATO warplane, according to Libyan spokesman Moussa Ibrahim.

"The leader himself is in good health," Ibrahim said. "He was not harmed. The wife is also in good health."

"The attack resulted in the martyrdom of brother Saif al-Arab Kadafi, 29 years old, and three of the leader's grandchildren," Ibrahim said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-kadafi-son-killed-20110430,0,6137491.story

[KoKo]

44. "29 years old and his three children" ...his wife was spared.

Okay..... I wonder what kind of bloody scene that was. Did the three children die instantly or in agony..writhing in pain, suffering until the lights went out for them?

Death is not always instant. Children's deaths are particularly hard to deal with unless one is a psychopath who gets off on that kind of thing.

This seems to be something terrible as more news comes out. I don't know how Nato can justify this. But, they will and in a day or two no one will remember any of it.

[freshwest]

19. Same thing done by Reagan. Deja vu.

[MineralMan]

20. Wow! That's really escalating things.

I wonder whose idea that was. Since he was not killed, he'll be out making propaganda over this as soon as he can. Not a good result.

[KoKo]

36. Making propaganda? Who was killed? Who is spinning killing?

HUH?

[MineralMan]

39. Yes, making propaganda.

I know who was reported to have been killed. I'm spinning nothing. My opinion is that we should stay the fuck out of the Middle East altogether. That has always been my opinion.

This little sortie did not work out well. Such things rarely do. It was a bad idea.

Please direct your anger more appropriately.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yupster]

21. I have no idea what we are doing there?

We need to be out of there now though.

[Octafish]

79. My country murders children.

I thought I voted to put a stop to this.



What happened to change my, eh, expectations?

[Turborama]

83. "according to Libyan spokesman Moussa Ibrahim"

Who also said that the Libyan youth were being drugged by Al Qaeda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/-anderson-cooper-accuses-qaddafi-lying-video-2011-3

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/02/acd.01.html

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/03/acd.02.html

[KoKo]

24. This is a terrible thing which has been done..it will be on all our heads and souls.

n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

32. WHO THE FUCK do we think we are?

What a bullshit, slapdash, slipshod, on-the-cheap, addle-headed little imperial fiasco we've decided to sustain. Happy SIXTH WEEK of this crap, and we can't mount a coherent effort here.

So we killed his son and three of his grandsons. Are we proud of that? Meanwhile, in Benghazi, the fundamentalist hobby-heroes fire their guns into the air, delighting in the possibility that the great Satan is in trouble.

There are mothers and siblings here, and even though they've enjoyed the fruits of wealth, their family members are dead. This guy's not Saddam. His sons aren't like Uday and Qusay. He's actually done things for his people, and much of the revolutionary outcry is from people in Benghazi and other Cyrenaican cities and towns who lost loved ones when their relatives went on a fundamentalist frenzy against Qaddafi 16 years ago.

I guess they can fire their guns into the air in infantile enthusiasm now that the Qataris--and certainly others--are so thoroughly violating the embargo.

Here is what our President and other leaders need to understand: privileged as we are with such great power, we need to be good stewards of the world's dreams. Okay, fine, stop laughing. Here's the real issue: if we're going to mount a WAR, which is what this is, we need to do it in the most effective way. This is ugly. This is sloppy and selfish.

I'm going to go hug the kids right now, and FUCK YOU to all those who cry crocodile tears about the saving of the many thousands who never got killed in Benghazi. These are real deaths. Sure, they're children of privilege, but they're deaths nonetheless.

We suck as a nation for this, and we will pay for it. This will reverberate in untold ways, and any R2P sanctimoniousness will be undercut in so many ways by this.

Remember why Bill Maher got such flack from ABC? It was because of his line about being cowardly for killing from the air.

[KoKo]

33. K&R..for your taking time to show the consequences of actions...

Remember, thought that few people read long posts, thoughtful posts, in this time, here on DU.

But, in these times, who of good conscience should or can remain SILENT!

[aquart]

42. The defense of dictators is always impressive.

And the fundamentalists who lost family? Too damn bad for them.

WHAT are you smoking?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

54. I claim...WHAT?

Pretty sure I didn't say what you think I said.

Saying something is "impressive" is "trashing"? Really. Well, I am impressed that anyone could decide that killing dictators and their families is wrong but no biggie to kill fundamentalists when they have been annoying which is what was posited by the poster to whom I replied. Seemed to rip the moral high ground right out from under him and I think it's fair to notice that.

And since this discussion is all about the morality of killing whoever, it does seem to fit.

[PurityOfEssence]

58. Tears for theocrats?

Those who would force their worldview on others aren't "good"; they're nasty, selfish and primitive.

This man, for all his many faults, has been inclusive. Religionists HATE "others" and demand their exclusion.

[joshcryer]

68. INCLUSIVE? GADDAFI INCLUSIVE? TELL THAT TO THE BERBERS.

TELL THAT TO THE MUSLIMS.

TELL THAT TO THE AFRICANS HE BLAMED FOR ISSUES IN THE EARLY 2000s.

:puke:

[PurityOfEssence]

110. It's hard to justify claiming the moral highground at this point

Had we not intervened, there's a strong likelihood the revolution would have been put down by now.

Maybe not, of course, since I don't have the soothsaying ability of so many of the interventionists.

The "rebels" need to take some responsibility for taking up arms when they didn't really have the numbers or ability to win, and they should also take responsibility for fighting in urban areas without allowing safe passage for civilians. They're essentially using human shields in Misrata, although nobody seems to want to hear the term used against a group that is so morally unquestionable.

We started this. We have the ultimate responsibility. We also have the responsibility for the children in Misrata, and I do feel bad for them as well.

[joshcryer]

69. Where were you with the 20 verified children deaths in Misrata?

You know, from cluster munitions. Oh right, you blamed the fucking rebels for Gaddafi's use of extreme force.

[PurityOfEssence]

84. The rebels take no responsibility for putting others at risk

Human shields.

[joshcryer]

98. See? The double standard is hilarious.

Misrata indiscriminately shelled with cluster munitions = focused strikes on an insurgency.

NATO attacks a military compound = Gaddafi family home was attacked (nevermind the pictures show that the house was built like a fucking bunker).

The rebels moved the vast majority of the Misratian population away from the fire zone.

Gaddafi, if the report is to be believed (and I still don't know if it's true), brings his grandchildren to the center of his military compound.

[Honeycombe8]

103. Maher's comment was that it was BRAVE to suicide-kill. Not the opposite,

as you suggest.

[PurityOfEssence]

126. Here's the quote; it's what I said it was

"We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly. You're right."

[Firebrand Gary]

34. I am keeping my perspective about this.

That son of a bitch was just as guilty as his father of murdering the people of Libya. I wonder how the families of those who have been murdered by the Gaddafi regime feel about this? I wonder how the families of the two journalist who were killed feel about this? I wonder how the families of Pan Am flight 103 feel about this? I don't care who's son he was, he has been playing a direct part in slaughter of innocent humans and I am thankful that he can no longer do that.

[EFerrari]

40. Your perspective is a rationalization for murder.

It's wrong when Gaddafi does it. It's still wrong when we do it.

[Firebrand Gary]

50. I appreciate what you are saying and I do agree, murder is wrong.

That said, should the world just sit by and watch? I hate war, God knows I hate war. However, it is the high, unfortunate cost of liberation.

[KoKo]

52. Do you feel Iraq has been "Liberated?" Vietnam, Korea were liberated when we lost those wars?

Are we Americans "LIBERATED" by your standards.

Should the Iraqi's, Vietnamese, Koreans and Libyans have decided THEMSELVES...who would liberate them?

Do we Own their Countries or do their CITIZENS own their countries.

Would it be Okay if someone decided America needs Liberation? Would you have condoned Bush and Laura and their kids being killed for stealing an election, driving our economy and world's economy to the brink by supporting more and more deregulation?

Should we have been Liberated from Bush? How about Nixon? How about McCain/Palin ...if they had won.

What if the Global Economy thought that American Banksters had taken everything down and decided to hunt down and kill off American Banksters, HedgFunds and Stock Market Traders and started picking off them and their wives and killing their children?

Would we think that was justification for their evilness?

[Firebrand Gary]

55. Thank you for completely ignoring what I said.

It must be nice to live in your idea of freedom. Yes, our own country still has issues. We do still make mistakes, it is expected. Remember that we are a young democracy. No matter how we slice it, the world can be a dark place.

AGAIN, I HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT WAR.

Just because I feel that way does not change the FACT that many innocent people are still being killed by the hands of their brutal dictators. These people will never have the opportunity to fight for their livelihoods so long as they are beaten down and submissive by an oppressive regime of Gaddafi's size.

As for the rest of your commentary, I'd appreciate as a fellow progressive that in the future you would refrain from the attempt of marginalization you encroached upon. The silly Bush, Nixon, McCain/Palin liberation point is ridiculous. WE ARE NOT KILLING OUR OWN PEOPLE!

[AtheistCrusader]

85. Well buckle up, because Gaddafi is going to kill everyone and everything he can

as he goes down. Count on it.

[Arrowhead2k1]

53. I wonder how the families of the victims of the regimes of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain

who have been murdered by their respective regimes feel. We don't raise a finger to help them, we keep supporting those regimes.

This is about US/NATO interests and a vain attempt to rearrange the balance of power in their favor. Nothing more. Anyone who thinks our forces are there to actually help poor people get better rights for themselves is just buying into the bullshit. 3 children were vaporized today thanks to NATO.

[MasonJar]

41. That is horrible. We killed his son and three grandsons. Three innocent

children. My God! What kind of monsters are we?

[aquart]

43. Normal kind.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

57. Hyperbole much?

I don't have a lot of patience with high horse righteousness.

I'm a whole lot more interested in WHY NATO chose to bomb an obviously non-military target after making a military excuse the last time.

Is it possible it was done as a warning to Syria which is getting quite bloody? Or is NATO getting sick of the mess and figured the quickest way out is just to kill the bastard?

I'm always sympathetic when targets hide themselves among "innocents" and depend for their safety on the humanity of their hunters. Aren't you?

[harmonicon]

56. Yeah, I guess assassination isn't illegal anymore... who knew? nt.

[iamtechus]

60. HAS THIS BEEN VERIFIED?

By some source not associated with Gadhafi?

If it's true, I can only say that Moammar should be hung for hiding behind the children. Those children should have been removed from harm's way weeks or months ago.

[Turborama]

64. No. This is only going by what Gaddafi's spokesman Moussa Ibrahim is saying.

No bodies have been shown, no evidence apart from rubble and big holes in the small house the footage is coming from.

Skepticism should not just be directed at Susan Rice, NATO, etc, people who are hearing this news should be skeptical of Gaddafi's propaganda machine, too.

For a start, I don't believe Gaddafi Senior was in that small house in a residential district. He's most probably safely tucked away in one of his bunkers at night.

[joshcryer]

66. +1

Gaddafi was not in that house. There's no evidence whatsoever to support that.

[EFerrari]

74. First reports can be wrong, that's true.

However that doesn't explain why NATO is bombing a house in a residential district. That hasn't been disputed.

[Turborama]

75. NATO confirms strike but not Gadhafi’s son’s death

TRIPOLI: NATO says it struck a government building in Tripoli but can’t confirm that one of Moammar Gadhafi’s sons was killed.

Sunday’s statement comes hours after an airstrike that the Libya regime said killed Gadhafi’s youngest son Seif al-Arab and three of the Libyan leader’s grandchildren. Gadhafi escaped unharmed.

NATO says it struck a “command and control building in the Bab al-Azizya neighborhood” Saturday evening, insisting all its targets are military in nature and linked to Gadhafi’s systematic attacks on the population.

Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard says he is aware of unconfirmed reports that some Gadhafi family members may have been killed and he regrets “all loss of life, specially the innocent civilians being harmed as a result of the ongoing conflict.” - AP

http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/NATOconfirmsstrikebutnotGadhafi__8217_sson__8217_sdeath/Article/

[Turborama]

76. "First reports" can not only be "wrong", they can also be fabricated &/or embellished with lies. n/t

[EFerrari]

77. Right, like claiming this house is a command and control center.

There's a lot of BS flying in both or maybe every direction.

[Turborama]

78. We don't know whether it was or not. As I said above, skepticism should go both ways. n/t

[citizen snips]

62. good job NATO!

[SHRED]

63. The USA keeps digging a hole

Oh yeah...sure it was NATO and all but...

[Turborama]

67. It was reported in February that this son had defected and was taking refuge in Benghazi

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/in-rebellious-east-fears-grow-that-exiled-loyalists-will-make-bloody-return-2225171.html

And http://www.deccanherald.com/content/141025/sent-crush-protesters-gaddafis-son.html">here, http://story.chicagochronicle.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/c8ac3000ee01c7aa/id/748307/cs/1/">here, http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110225/local/gaddafis-son-join-pro-democracy-protesters-reports.351948">here, http://www.sify.com/news/sent-to-crush-protesters-gaddafi-s-son-joins-them-news-international-lczs4qaefed.html">here, http://www.sott.net/articles/show/224911-Gaddafi-s-youngest-son-joins-Libyan-protesters-">here

[EFerrari]

87. It was reported by PressTV. n/t

[Turborama]

90. And this story about NATO killing the same son is sourced directly from Gaddafi's spokesman. n/t

[EFerrari]

93. Yep. n/t

[Turborama]

91. Also, I don't know if you noticed but that 1st link was from The Independent (UK)

The UK's most anti-war broadsheet newspaper.

[EFerrari]

92. They reported a rumor, not a fact. "It was said that".

[Turborama]

99. At the moment, it's only a rumor that one of Gaddafi's sons & 3 grandchildren were killed by NATO

By that standard.

[EFerrari]

114. By the standard of reading what is written?

LOL

[Turborama]

117. No, "It was said by ---- fill in blank ----" (Moussa Ibrahim in this instance) = a rumor.

It is and will remain a rumor until there is verifiable proof.

Rumor

A rumor or rumour (see spelling differences) is often viewed as "an unverified account or explanation of events circulating from person to person and pertaining to an object, event, or issue in public concern" (33)<1> However, a review of the research on rumor conducted by Pendleton in 1998 found that research across sociology, psychology, and communication studies had widely varying definitions of rumor.<2> Thus, rumor is a concept that lacks a particular definition in the social sciences. But most theories agree that rumor involves some kind of a statement whose veracity is not quickly or ever confirmed. In addition, some scholars have identified rumor as a subset of propaganda, the latter another notoriously difficult concept to define.

A pioneer of propaganda studies, Harold Lasswell defined propaganda in 1927 as referring "solely to the control of opinion by significant symbols, or, to speak more concretely and less accurately, by stories, rumors, reports, pictures, and other forms of social communication" (1927:9).<3> Rumors are also often discussed with regard to "misinformation" and "disinformation" (the former often seen as simply false and the latter seen as deliberately false, though usually from a government source given to the media or a foreign government).<4> Rumors thus have often been viewed as particular forms of other communication concepts.

Full Wikipedia entry with references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumor

[Muskypundit]

70. Wouldnt be surprised if it was just his son killed

Take anything from Qaddafi with a grain of salt. Just like the piles of civilians 'killed by nato airstrikes' they gathered who had obvious gunshot wounds, it wouldn't surprise me if no children actually were killed. Just like it wouldn't surprise me if children did die. Thats part of the mess, when there is no source of trustworthy info.

[classysassy]

80. Are we completely insane?

Where is the threat from Libya?We are wasting our money on a war that is none of our business.Why do we sit on the side lines when Israel invade another country,but we invade Libya because they are having internal problems,sheer madness?.We wonder why the Arab(Muslims) countries hate America,put on your thinking caps America?.

[classysassy]

82. "We kill Arabs don't we?

The insanity continues.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Prometheus Bound]

89. In a word, yes.

[CJvR]

96. The devil...

...protects his own.

Ah well better luck next time, although I suspect Gaddafi is going to be lurking in hospital and school basements from now on. The bombing of top officials should be expanded, why kill nobodies who are only following orders, more or less enthusiasticly, when you can nail the guys who actually gives the orders?

[LostinNY]

97. Thought this was suppose to be a no-fly zone only?

Obama said Qaddafi wasn't targeted, remember? Now we're killing little kids.

I was at Syracuse when 35 fellow students were killed over Lockerbie. The ones I knew wouldn't want this.

How many more Lockerbies have we just inspired?

[Mimosa]

107. In our names the militarists have created a thousand Guernicas of pain and despair.

In our names the militarists have created a thousand Guernicas of pain and despair.

LostinNY, you are right. Violence begets violence, not peace. Not unless 'we' are willing to do the unspeakable and nearly exterminate all the enemies 'we've' made. because 'we' are surely not making friends.

[Ter]

109. Did "Change" in '08 mean we'd change to more wars and brutality?

Can't blame that idiot Bush for this one. Time to elect an anti-war president. The last one was Carter.

[jakeXT]

111. Lots of antennas

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-05/01/c_13853580.htm


I wonder how far away the disabled children school is from this place
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE74001R20110501

[Turborama]

118. Good catch. Also constructed using heavily reinforced concrete.

[cqo_000]

122. Saif al-Arab death confirmed

ROME: The most senior Catholic official in Tripoli on Sunday confirmed on Italian television that Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi's son Saif al-Arab had been killed and appealed for a ceasefire.

"I confirm the death of the son of the leader," Giovanni Martinelli, the bishop of Tripoli, told the Sky TG24 channel.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Bishop-confirms-Gaddafi-sons-death-calls-for-ceasefire/articleshow/8138218.cms



French surgeon Gerrard Le Clouerec, who does not work for the Libyan government, was asked to independently identify the bodies of Saif al-Arab and two children. He said all three had died due to a blast. He said the children's faces had been obliterated by the blast so they were difficult to identify.

Le Clouerec said he also saw the body of a young man of about 30, with a beard and a thin moustache whose face matched a photograph he had been shown of Saif al-Arab.

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFLDE71Q0MP20110502?sp=true