Report: Many weapons (70%) used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S.

[kpete]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- A trio of Democratic U.S. senators called for tougher firearms laws and regulations after releasing a report that showed a large number of weapons used by Mexico drug gangs originating north of the border.
More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report.

"Congress has been virtually moribund while powerful Mexican drug trafficking organizations continue to gain unfettered access to military-style firearms coming from the United States," said Sen. Diane Feinstein of California.

In a letter this month to Feinstein, the ATF acknowledged that the United States keeps no record of criminal firearms seized in Mexico and that "the Mexican government does not submit every recovered firearm to ATF for tracing."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/14/mexico.guns/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[hlthe2b]

1. Deep within our own gun forum....

With the release of this report, I hear the rumbling of yet another (rhetorical) volcanic eruption...... ;)

[Bragi]

3. Yep, and it's right there in post #2

The DU guns forum regulars are no doubt assigning roles and duties right now.

Can't have people thinking there's a problem with Mexican cartels operating with guns that originate in America.

heck, if there were more guns, then everything would be fixed, and ah, Mexicans would be able to stand up to the cartels.

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[slackmaster]

4. Bragi, do you understand that "guns that originate in America" are not all cut from the same cloth?

Millions of rifles, grenades, machine guns, etc. have been provided by the US military to prop up dictatorships in Central and South America. Millions more have been sold to the Mexican army and Mexican police departments. Those, plus other weapons like Kalashnikov rifles smuggled in from other countries, account for the bulk of weapons used by Mexican criminal gangs.

The issue is not the civilian sporting firearms market in the US, but numbers are being twisted in an attempt to make a case for enacting new restrictions on the kinds of weapons that you and I can buy legally.

[Bragi]

5. I support restrictions on guns

That includes guns that "you and I can buy legally".

The reason is that I'm not acutely afraid of everyone else, so I don't feel the need to walk around with lethal force devices on my person at all times.

Personally, I wish gun-toters would come to grips with their unrealistic fears, and have the courage to join with the vast majority of their non-paranoid neighbors in living gun-free, and unafraid.

[Kolesar]

6. It's not the "gun toters"

It's the weapons industry activists spreading this fear and misinformation.

[slackmaster]

8. d00D, I don't carry guns around either, nor am I afraid of people other than bad drivers

I just collect firearms, and have a vested financial interest in keeping them legal and available.

It seems to me that people who support additional restrictions are the ones who are fearful.

Personally, I wish gun-toters would come to grips with their unrealistic fears, and have the courage to join with the vast majority of their non-paranoid neighbors in living gun-free, and unafraid.

I wish gun-ban enthusiasts would wake up and realize that fear of others is by no means the only reason that people own firearms, even ones owned for self-defense.

[Kolesar]

30. Seeing your neighbors dead makes one "fearful"

slackmaster: "It seems to me that people who support additional restrictions are the ones who are fearful."

[PavePusher]

39. And you'll apply that philosophy to cars any minute now, amIrite? n/t

[fascisthunter]

32. EXACTLY.... (nt)

[PavePusher]

34. If you are "not acutely afraid of everyone else"....

then why do you want to restrict firearms so desperately?

Could it be.... FEAR??

[smirkymonkey]

37. Well said.

Most Americans live in constant fear. I think that explains our gun lust very well. I feel as you do and I live in a very large city.

[RC]

16. Really, what difference does it make whether the guns are civilian or military if they all come

from one place, the U.S. of A? They are manufactured because there is demand. Military hardware because we invent reasons to ship them to trouble spots we stir up and civilians hardware because pop and sons see a way to make some money.
If someone would put the United States out of business, peace would break out because of the shortage of personal war toys.

[slackmaster]

17. My POINT is that the goal of Senator Feinstein et al is to make propaganda points in support of...

...needless restrictions on US civilian sporting firearms.

Restrictions that would do NOTHING to improve public safety in the USA or in Mexico.

It's a classic Big Lie. Here's a quote from the Feinstein, Schumer, and Whitehouse report:

As an example of the type of arsenal being stockpiled by Mexican criminal
groups, on April 30, 2011, Mexican federal police found numerous weapons
behind the mirrors of a home gym in Ciudad Juárez including three anti-aircraft
guns, dozens of grenades, a grenade launcher, AK-47s, several makes of machine
guns and more than 26,000 ammunition cartridges.vi

Source: http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Files.View&FileStore_id=beaff893-63c1-4941-9903-67a0dc739b9d

Here's the deal: Machine guns, AA guns, grenades, grenade launchers, and (real, selective-fire) AK-47 rifles ARE NOT being diverted from the US civilian sporting arms market. You can't just walk into Wal-Mart or Big Five Sporting Goods and buy ANY of those things. That has been the case since 1934, but many people (including you apparently, RC) are not aware of that, so they are easily fooled by this propaganda.

But Feinstein, Schumer, and Whitehouse are using the report to bolster their calls for additional restrictions on the US civilian sporting firearms market.

Do you see the logical disconnect now, RC? Distorted information is being used for political purposes unrelated to public safety.

[smirkymonkey]

38. Hey, but at least we're EXPORTING!

:sarcasm:

[jpak]

40. The come from US gun shows and gun shops - the cartels use straw buyers the send them to Mexico

Some have been caught with dozens of weapons

and still the GOP/NRA will deny the evidence

yup

[slackmaster]

2. The Astute Reader(TM) will note that no distinction is made between diverted military weapons...

...and civilian sporting weapons illegally exported from the US to Mexico. An M16 rifle that was sold to El Salvador in the 1970s may have "originated" in the USA, but that's a very different thing than a rifle bought illegally for a Mexican in a straw purchase at a sporting goods store in the USA.

This is a bullshit propaganda story intended to garner support for a renewal of the expired "assault weapons" ban, the demise of which in September 2004 has not resulted in any measurable effect on public safety in the USA.

The real problem in Mexico, besides its massive corruption and culture of violence, is a thriving black market in actual military weapons that were never available for sale to civilians in the USA.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. And that somehow makes it better? That our fucked up political

arms sales are destabilizing our immediate neighbor to the south?

No matter how you cut it, it comes back to US arms manufacturers looking to the bucks.

[slackmaster]

14. My POINT is that the goal of Senator Feinstein et al is to make propaganda points in support of...

...needless restrictions on US civilian sporting firearms.

Restrictions that would do NOTHING to improve public safety in the USA or in Mexico.

It's a classic Big Lie. Here's a quote from the Feinstein, Schumer, and Whitehouse report:

As an example of the type of arsenal being stockpiled by Mexican criminal
groups, on April 30, 2011, Mexican federal police found numerous weapons
behind the mirrors of a home gym in Ciudad Juárez including three anti-aircraft
guns, dozens of grenades, a grenade launcher, AK-47s, several makes of machine
guns and more than 26,000 ammunition cartridges.vi

http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Files.View&FileStore_id=beaff893-63c1-4941-9903-67a0dc739b9d

Machine guns, AA guns, grenades, grenade launchers, and (real, selective-fire) AK-47 rifles ARE NOT being diverted from the US civilian sporting arms market. You can't just walk into Wal-Mart or Big Five Sporting Goods and buy ANY of those things.

But Feinstein, Schumer, and Whitehouse are using the report to bolster their calls for additional restrictions on the US civilian sporting firearms market.

Do you see the logical disconnect now, RaleighNCDUer?

[PavePusher]

35. It makes it, at best, extremely dishonest to restrict the legal manufacture and sale...

of civilian guns, when they are not the actual problem.

Please let me know if that's any clearer.

[valerief]

7. I thought the US made EVERYONE'S weapons. That what we make. Weapons and WAR. nt

[Heretofor]

9. Gun shops?

Are Mexican cartels coming into the USA gun stores, buying them illegally by the thousands, and then bringing them back over the border to Mexico? Or are they getting them from other, easier, less able to get caught means?

[slackmaster]

10. The article doesn't say. It IMPLIES that they all came from US gun shops.

And a lot of people aren't well enough informed to see the core dishonesty of what's been presented here.

[david_vincent]

12. Interesting link

http://articles.cnn.com/2000-06-28/us/gunland.01_1_gun-control-group-gun-control-gun-industry?_s=PM:US

[booley]

25. Good link

and it will continue to be ignored because it doesn't the narrative.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. 70% OF THE FIREARMS SUBMITTED.

LOL.

No distinction between weapons the US Government supplied to the Mexican Government, and civilian weapons.

[RC]

18. See my post #16

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Partially agree, partially disagree.

Plenty of other nations produce a surplus of war toys, but I agree if the US vanished into the sea, the surplus would dwindle considerably.

[jpak]

41. How many guns? 29,284

They don't call it the "Iron River" for nothing

yup

[MakingANoise]

15. Careful People

You know the Right Wing is all over the Operation Fast and Furious, claiming Obama illegally sent guns to Mexico

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml

[slackmaster]

19. Actually, Operation Gun Runner was started during the George W. Bush administration

Nice try at diversion.

[MakingANoise]

21. no diversion!

seriously, i did not know this, and have been getting hammered by right wingers on other forums regarding this operation.

didn't mean to divert, thanks for letting me know about where that operation started!


:)

[slackmaster]

23. It's a major scandal no matter who is saying what about it

It's contributed to many deaths.

[MakingANoise]

24. agreed

The thing that has dissapointed about President Obama is his continuation of quite a few of Bush's policies....still, i hope once he IS re-elected, since he won't be running again for re-election, that he will actually do many of the things that we hoped he would do :)

[PavePusher]

36. This argument makes my head explode.

Integrity would seem to suggest that getting re-elected doesn't matter, if you do something useful during the first term. If you're in the game simply to get re-elected, you are playing the game incorrectly. This, of course, applies to all politics and politicians.

[NickB79]

20. Wow, talk about lies, damn lies and statistics

First, you have this:

"70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report."

But then, you have this:

"the Mexican government does not submit every recovered firearm to ATF for tracing."

If they aren't submitting all the firearms recovered to the ATF, how do we know they aren't cherry-picking the guns they do submit? Is it possible they only submit guns they are fairly sure come from the US, and withhold guns of clear Russian or Chinese origin?

[pampango]

22. The money they use to buy the guns comes largely from US, too.

We are the major market for those drugs, so we supply the money.

Mexico just supplies the triggermen and the victims while we wonder why there is so much violence there.

[fascisthunter]

26. US gun sellers are making a killing

question is, who is doing the selling?

[oldbanjo]

27. May be the CIA

[slackmaster]

29. Most of the selling of the weapons in question happened decades ago

Under the Reagan administration, a lot of them.

[PuffedMica]

31. This topic has be addressed before

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x422574

[fascisthunter]

33. surrre... everyone move along

whatever you say