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pettypace Donating Member (695 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:00 PM
Original message
U.S. Students Remain Poor at History, Tests Show
Source: New York Times

American students are less proficient in their nation’s history than in any other subject, according to results of a nationwide test released on Tuesday, with most fourth graders unable to say why Abraham Lincoln was an important figure and few high school seniors able to identify China as the North Korean ally that fought American troops during the Korean War.

Over all, 20 percent of fourth graders, 17 percent of eighth graders and 12 percent of high school seniors demonstrated proficiency on the exam, the National Assessment of Educational Progress. ...fewer than a third of eighth graders could answer even a “seemingly easy question” asking them to identify an important advantage American forces had over the British during the Revolution, the government’s statement on the results said.

The tests were given last spring to a representative sample of 7,000 fourth graders, 11,800 eighth graders and 12,400 12th graders nationwide. On average, for instance, white eighth-grade students scored 274 on the latest test, 21 points higher than Hispanic students and 23 points above black students.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/education/15history.html?_r=1&hp



This article is a kick in the stomach for history majors. The subject merits more study due to it being intertwined with virtually any other subject out there.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Founding fathers took back their guns from the Brits on orders from Jesus while riding on raptors
What do you mean that's not the correct answer?
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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. 'Seemingly easy question'
Uniquely American Answer: "We had GAWD on our side! Nothing else mattered."
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's Part of the Reason so many vote Republican
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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
60. +1
And the reason so many Republicans keep repeating the same blunders. x(
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. when was civics classes yanked from public schools?
was it a purely political move?
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JAnthony Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
69. +2 This is precisely why we are in the mess we are in!
Republicans simply do not care, only think of their pocketbooks, not the logic and reason things are as they are.

The only reason the Great Depression ended was when the USA entered WWII and went MASSIVELY into debt, not to end the Depression, but to win a war, but the massive debt was never a concern.
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bigworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. National History Day competition is underway in DC this week
The kids here are amazing, and many of them really have a grasp on history.

A super organization doing good work; I wish more kids would be aware of it... http://www.nhd.org
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
67. I participated in NHD as a kid in middle school
Had a blast!
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SoapBox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. No shit sherlock! It's part of the Every Child Left Behind program...
and home schooling.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
42. It is not an accident, that's for sure.
We can't have the worker bees know the history of the worker bees.

In fact, we can't have them even realizing that they are the worker bees.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. First reason why:
The history textbooks are abominable. The scholarship is decidedly lacking, the writing poor. The books originate from Texas with the Board that censors "real" American history from reaching impressionable students.

And teachers are not that well read on ALL issues found in American history and barely familiar with those issues found in the textbooks. The teachers are reliant on the textbooks (see above) and can't extrapolate when there is an error or an outright lie.

When I was a substitute teacher dong fourth grade history, I had the kids close their books when I saw that Native Americans were referred to as "savages". I proceeded to give "The 'Other' Thanksgiving Story", about the settlors and their growing greed to take and privatize land needed to farm and hunt. The Native Americans being attacks for protesting. Starving for lack of access of the land. I told the kids that they should go to the library and read more about this topic to get their own facts to make up their minds what probably happened.

History is subjective, subject to the facts and how the facts are interpreted.

BTW, history is taught without the passion and the issues too often. The right materials and the right instructor and you could students of history for life.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Perhaps,
you could encourage your students to read Loewen's "Lies My Teacher Told Me" or Brown's "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee."

(BTW, I encourage you to say "many teachers are" instead of lumping us all in the same category.)
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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Yes, and a quick check of the NAEP test shows a problem with THEIR
content.

Here's a link to the question and answer:

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/itmrlsx/detail.aspx?subject=history

Which of the following is the main reason the Pilgrims wanted to leave England?
To escape bad treatment because of their religion
To find good land for their farms and towns
To trade with Native Americans
To start a new country
The correct answer is A.


Their answer is incorrect. The Pilgrims left England for Holland, because Holland had greater religious tolerance than England, which had a state church. People were fined for not attending (that's the bad treatment, I suppose). However, in Holland, after they had been there a decade or more, their kids started wearing Dutch clothes, speaking Dutch, and DATING DUTCH GIRLS! The horror! Their children were not growing up to be little mini-mes of THEM! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

So they loaded up the boat and went far far away.

Their question is far too vague to be answered well. Left England for where? What is "bad" treatment?

If this question is representative, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I'm hardly impressed with the test.
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I am reading an interesting book right now
called "Making Haste from Babylon". The reason for the Pilgrims coming to America was the beaver according to the book. While the Dutch influence on their children was a contributing fact for their final decision to leave Europe, the lack of upward mobility in the Netherlands was also an important consideration. The fact that you had constant wars between Protestants and Catholics, and the Netherlands was a hot spot for this conflict also did not help.

The question is a poor one and it does reinforce the one dimensional treatment that history receives. I guess the problem with trying to teach history is that do you go broad and shallow or narrow and deep in your study? I had this issue when I tried to do Western Civilization in 7th grade in Homeschooling my daughter. I split the cow so to speak. I took quite a bit of time with the ancient world in particular with Rome, but went much faster through the Middle Ages etc.

The scary thing is that you can graduate from our local school system without ever studying the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Reformation, or the Enlightenment. In 7th grade they take a semester for Ancient Western Civilization and then do a semester with modern human and physical geography. They then take two years for U.S. History (1/2 of 8th grade, all of 9th grade, and 1/2 of 10th grade). They then only have one elective available in which they might study Western Civilization, and it is a semester course covering everything from River valleys to the modern world.

As far as addressing the abuses of Western Civilization, I think the schools do it probably to the point of missing the good things that have come from Western thought. Look at the New York Social Studies test for middle school for example. The treatment of native Americans, black slaves, and the Japanese internment camps are prominently covered in the questions.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Much
of what our students are taught as 'history' is sanitized, ethnocentric propaganda. I discovered this while still a middle school student, because my parents supported my voracious reading of non-fiction works. I encourage you to read "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen, each and every book written by Barbara Tuchman ("A Distant Mirror" is one of my faves), and "The American Age" by Walter LaFeber.
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Some examples were I think you are tipping the
balance in the other direction. Every U.S. History textbook I have ever seen (going back to mine in the 1970s-1980s) and extending to my daughter's today has extensive sections on Joseph McCarthy. I have never seen so much as a panel on Walter Duranty.

The Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee, and the forced indoctrination of native Americans into Western culture were all prominently discussed in my U.S. History textbook (as they are in my daughter's textbook). While the tone is one of indictment of Western culture, no context is brought to the discussion. All individuals practice ethnocentrism, and most conduct war and conquest to secure resources for their societies. Like in Europe this was going on in America long before Europeans came to America. Europeans are even blamed for bringing smallpox to America even though it was, except for a few examples of intentional infection, something the Europeans really could not control.

What society today critically examines its history and the flaws and mistakes which that society made on its way to today? Do the Norwegians indict their ancestors for their behavior? How about the Muslim countries and their march across the Middle East, Africa, and Europe? The only thing you will see is regret about what were formerly Muslim countries which are no longer Muslim countries. I can't pick up a World History textbook without reading about continued indictments of the Crusades but the comparable prior and later expansions by the sword of Muslims is not discussed. Saladin is held out as a hero but what about Charles Martel or John Sobieski?

I know the Japanese refuse to address their treatment of the Chinese and Koreans during World War II. Mao is still a hero in China even after all those who died.

Goliad was not mentioned in my daughter's textbook, but the injustice in our relationship with Mexico is discussed in several places.

Now I am not saying that the above information should not be included. What I am saying is that folks should really study history and understand it. Also I am not a big fan of blood guilt. Just because folks who looked like me owned slaves and pushed Native Americans off their land does not mean I am guilty of those actions. There are lots of good things about European society, and I think we are in danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater if we don't recognize that fact.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. actually, Norwegians do indict their ancestors for their behavior.
The Vikings are pretty much reviled as barbarians and robbers in Norway today. You only see Viking pride among Norwegian-Americans, or ironically enough, among the English.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. hmm...
I have tried to suss out what you meant by your first sentence. Still not sure...

The rest of your post seems a continuation of your initial observation. I was not negating your initial observation. However, given that our nation's textbooks have historically misrepresented our past, I felt you might be interested in some resources that I've found quite different. I am sure there are many resources available; these are a few of the ones I've found most enlightening.

Furthermore, history should never be about blaming and shaming. However, if our species can learn to take responsibility for our actions and attitudes, rather than sanitizing the record of our existence, perhaps we can learn from our mistakes without carrying a burden of 'blood guilt.'

You know, saying that 'all individuals practice ethnocentrism' is rather indefensible. I was not referring to any other nation than our own. Acknowledging our nation's ethnocentrism does not negate the ethnocentrism of other nations.



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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I am currently reading "Lies my Teacher Told Me"
and comparing it to a typical High School American History textbook (McDougal Littrell American History).

ML American History states that Wilson was a segregationist who set Civil Rights back. It also mentions his interventions in Latin America
Helen Keller is not mentioned in the text. Debs is mentioned and his unjust imprisonment is also explored in the text.

Lies claims that the motivation for accessing the Eastern spice trade was the blockade by Muslims. ML American History says it was a desire to bypass the middle men (Muslim and Italians) and access the East directly which is true and pretty typical for any businessmen.

I do not find two pages on Columbus in ML's American History, but only a few paragraphs. They are far from being hero worship, but a statement of facts regarding Columbus. He was looking for a quicker way to Europe, but he was stupid and did not understand the diameter of the earth. He was in search of treasure, and he never knew he had landed on a new continent.

Diseases and overwhelming technology are presented in ML American History as primary advantages that Europeans have in the conquest of America in spite of what Lies claims. Conversion by the sword in Spanish controlled areas is also discussed in ML American History along with primary documents discussion of the enslavement of native Americans in Latin America.


I am still reading both books, but I think I have proven my point that "Lies" was written to satisfy an agenda and in a few sentences I have shown where "Lies" lies so to speak.

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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Wow...
I didn't get that about Loewen's book at all, and I totally disagree with your closing assertion.

Loewen's research points out our nation's persistent inability to develop history curriculae for secondary schools that ISN'T partisan or mendacious. He is not the only social scientist to address this issue. Hopefully, he won't be the last.

I am finding his book somewhat repetitive and pedantic. On the whole, however, his scholarship is timely and warranted.

(BTW, you might want to check pages 33-35 in Loewen's book, wherein he does not claim "that the motivation for accessing the Eastern spice trade was the blockade by Muslims." Given that you are dead wrong about this, I doubt sincerely you've actually bothered to read Loewen's book.)
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Lies is stating what is in the U.S. textbooks - blockade by Muslims
I should have been clearer that this is another example which is contradicted by the ML American History textbook. The ML American History textbook states Portugal and the other Western European powers wanted to bypass the middlemen which is true. No mention is made of a blockade in the ML American History textbook. Lies is trying to say that textbooks indict Muslims for a blockade as an attempt to smear the religion.

A main point of Lies is that U.S. textbooks are inaccurate or incomplete, and I am trying to make the point that, for at least one widely used textbook, the examples cited are not present. This is just in the first 32 pages of Lies. Like I said I am reading it in comparison with the ML American History textbook.

When you are trying to cover 400 plus years in a textbook, it does not leave much time to explore all controversies. The claim is that these textbooks are whitewashed, and I am saying that I do not see this. Are they perfect, no. Do they have time to go into all the flaws of the people studied - no. I really don't know how you do create a U.S. History textbook that is perfect. Some High Schoolers may be ready to read Guns, Germs, and Steel, but most do not have the intellectual capability or the desire to do this.


It should be remembered that even subjects like Physics and Chemistry are covered in a general fashion in High School. The presentations are incomplete at best for both subjects. Even more so for a course like Physical Science which tries to present both topics in a year in 9th grade.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
81. I could see Beaver as a Factor, but Fishing was the big issue
It is known that Europeans had been hitting the Grand Banks (South of Newfoundland, East of New England) since at least the 1200s. Do to Gulf Stream, it was a week trip from Boston to England in the 1700s, a little longer in the 1200s, but just by days maybe even hours.

On the other hand, to get to the Grand Banks from Europe meant to fight the Gulf Stream. In the days before Steam that meant a Six week Voyage, longer if you hit bad weather or had a huge load.

One of the reasons behind the Raise of the "Reform" Churches of the Netherlands, was do to the increase in wealth of the Merchant Class, as the ships became bigger from the 1200s onward. Around 1000 AD you had the Viking Long ships, replaced by the Cog (1200s), then the Galleon (1400s), then later even larger ships. The problem with these larger ships is you started to need additional men to haul them onto the beach every two years or so, and replace every nail in the ship (The Salt water turned them into useless rust) and replace what bad wood was on the ship. In the days of the Long Ship, this could be done by the Crew, the ships were small enough to be beached and un-beached as needed. With the Cog, you finally get to a size that the crew needed additional help. For example when the Santa Maria was sunk on Columbus's first voyage, he had to abandon the ship, for the crew of the Santa Maria and the Nina and the Pinta were NOT enough to drag the Santa Maria on shore for repairs. On the other hand the crew of the Nina and Pinta would do that to the Nina and Pinta, but that is how much smaller the Nina and Pinta, basically Cogs (If not very large long ships), compared to the much larger Galleon the Santa Maria.

The Dutch and English were the leaders in the movement to make Ships larger, and thus more economical to run. To do so, they would recruit people on shore to help them beach these larger ships and then help them do the repairs, and then to get the ship back to sea. The Reform Church tend to be found in rural areas where such help could be found, Netherlands, Southern England, South Western France, and the lowlands of Scotland (The Catholic Church stayed the dominant church outside of these areas, through I have to point out the other area of strength of the Reform Church was areas where trade had increased via the use of teams of horses and oxen to pull wagons, such as the Switzerland).

This increase trade enriched the growing middle class of the above areas. With them the local peasants also saw an increase in income. Thus both groups embraced the Reform Church over the traditional Catholic Church and even the Earlier Lutheran Protestant Church. The Puritans were of the Reform Church movement, as were the Congregationists, and Presbyterians.

I went into the Reform Church for its members were tied in with the adoptions of larger and larger ships. About the time the Reform church hit the above areas, the Middle Class had made the move to these larger ships and taken the local peasants with them. The New Middle Class wanted to control their society, and thus embraced the Reform Church for it was a rejection of Social System based on the Catholic Church AND the rule of the old landed Nobility. The theological difference were NOT that great between the Reform and Catholic Churches, but the real dispute was who controlled the Church.

Lets remember at that time the Church was larger, richer and more important in most people lives, then who controlled the Country. For example, while land ownership was determined by the State, personal property was determined by the Church, even in terms of inheritance. It was the Church that kept records of birth and deaths NOT the State. It was the Church that determined if a marriage was valid.

Prior to the Reformation, most marriages in Europe were in the nature of what we call "Common Law" marriages, that were later blessed by the Church and thus recorded in Church Records as a Valid Marriage. Please note Ceremony marriages were still legal in areas where some sort of Roman Law Survived, through always performed by a Catholic Priest, but it was NOT the norm for most people till after the Council of Trent. This ruling that ceremony marriages were the only valid marriages was an Catholic effort to reach out to the Middle Class. To a degree it worked, after the Council of Trent, the Protestant Movement tended to come to an end, and the Catholic Counter-Reformation went on the march, the Religious wars of the 1600s were more Protestant efforts to stop the Catholic Counter Reformation. All the Protestant Countries later accepted many of the Reforms made in the Council of Trent (For example the Gregory Calendar and the abolishment of Common Law marriages in most of Europe, even England, but NOT to the English Colonies).

The Catholic Church in the Council of Trent, abolished such "Common Law Marriages" in Catholic Countries in the mid 1500s, and thus it made in clearer who was a legitimate child and who was an illegitimate child (a little vague during the Middle ages). The purpose of this was to make in clear who inherited what from whom (Which had been a little vague during the Middle ages). Lets remember the above for who inherited what, and who owned what was determined more by the Church then the State in 1500s (And had been the case since the fall of the Roman Empire in the West around 450 AD). Once you accept that premise, you quickly see why it was religious toleration was impossible, it would be like have two different governments fighting over who determined your legal rights today. Thus the Reformation was more a fight over who was to rule Europe more then how one worshiped. In many ways today's freedom of religion is a reflection of how much power all of the Churches have lost since the Reformation. Counties do NOT care who you worship, unless it affects someone's ability to rule (Thus the hatred of Communism in the US in the 1920s to today, Communism, till the 1980s, is a threat to who controls the US. and thus to be feared and thus was NOT to be tolerated).

But back to fishing. The above was the Situation in Europe in the early 1600s, Catholicism was on the March, Protestants was on the Defensive. At the same time, the movement was to even larger ships (Compare the Mayflower, a "Small" ships of its day with the Santa Maria of 100 years Earlier, a "Large Ship" of her day with the Converted Bonhomme Richards of 1779 to see how ships have become larger between 1492 and 1779).

The Santa Maria was 223 tons (1492):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Mar%C3%ADa_(ship)

The Nina, is believed to be only 75 tons in 1492:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C3%B1a

The Pinta is believed to be only 60 tons (But bigger then the Nina, we have to be careful the guesses for the size of these boats varies):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinta_(ship)

USS Bonhomme Richard. 998 tons (1779):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonhomme_Richard_(1765)


The Mayflower (1620) was 180 tons, as to this ship we have a good idea, for it is reported, but the report is debatable, that timbers from the Ship was used to build the Mayflower barn in Southern England. A ship of that name was the source of the Timber for the barn, but it was a common name for ships at that time. so a debate exists if the timbers is from the Mayflower that took the Pilgrims to the New World or another ship by that name):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower

The Mayflower barn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_Barn#The_Mayflower_Barn

Back to fishing, again. With the adoption of larger and larger ships, the fishing fleets of Europe started to go to bigger and bigger ships. Generally the fishermen were slower to adopt bigger ships then other merchants, for the simple reason of the increase cost to buy and maintain such larger ships. The Nina and Pinta were still of the Size the crew could do the needed repairs (And why such 100 tons and smaller ships were the preferred ships of the Caribbean pirates in the 1600s and 1700s).

On the other hand, larger and larger ships were being built and used, even for fishing and such large ships needed more people then the crew to do needed repairs. Worse do to the Gulf Stream it took six weeks to three months to get to New England but only a week to return to Europe. I suspect that starting with fishing on the Grand Banks, it became common practice to beach the fishing ship on a New England Beach, do repairs using wood and nails brought from home (And maybe a little trading with the Native Americans). Then un-beached the ship, haul in the Catch, process the Catch, and head for home.

By the early 1600s, it was clear that you needed people living in New England to help in doing such repairs to such larger ships. The Spanish had been slave hunting up and down the Coast for over a hundred years by the early 1600s. It is believed one of the Reason the Native American permitted the Settlement of both Jamestown and New England was the whites had Cannon, the native Americans did not. The white settles could NOT stop an concentrated Spanish attack on their Settlements, but that had NOT been Spanish practice. Instead it was individual Spanish ships doing the Slave hunting (Technically enslaving people was illegal under European Law of the time period, but it was legal to buy and sell people born as slaves or enslaved under the laws of whatever non-European Country the slave was found. The Spanish got around this ban, by claiming that the Slaves they "purchased" had been slaves where ever the Slave was from, if the slave objected and said he had never been a slave, the Spanish said he was lying. We know this to have been happening do to the "Black Legend" first written about by a Catholic Priest who was in the Caribbean in the 1500s. This report later became famous among Protestants as propaganda against the Spanish, they ignored that it was a Spanish Catholic Priest that first wrote about the problem).

Do to the Spanish raids (And the spread of Small Pox do to contact with Europeans, mostly the Spanish in the 1500s), most Native American tribes suffered a 90% death rate in the 1500s. Thus the need for Cannon and more people to fight off these slavers. Thus the support for white Settlement by the Native Americans in the early 1600s (By the mid 1600s Native Americans appear to have regretted the settlement, and thus you see the start of the Wars between the White Settlements and the Native Americans, in 1620 in Virginia, a little later in New England).

In England (and to a limited degree the Netherlands and other areas where the Reform Church was strong) the need for additional bodies in New England to help them repair their fishing ships became more and more clear as the fishing fleet slowly abandon Sloop size vessels, like the Nina and Pinta, and adopted larger size vessels like the Santa Maria and the Mayflower. Thus, an additional source of income for New England farmers was to provide labor to do such repairs. With the Settlement of New England, the fishing fleet also did NOT have to carry their own wood and nails, they could get both in New England (Thus New England became a center for Shipping as the 1600s turned in the 1700s). By the American Revolution, such repairs were common (And the main wealth of John Hancock, who is believed to be the richest man in America prior to the Revolution, he retains that position, or that of the Second Richest after the Revolution, the debate is whether Washington's land holdings in Western Pennsylvania exceeded in value John Hancock's wealth, given that the King of Europe gave Washington all types of personal presents, that he used to enrich himself, it is a close debate. An example of such gift was from the King of Spain, who provided Washington two donkeys and two horses, of the type used to breed mules in Spain, it is believed most US Mules are decedents from those gifts, gifts to Washington personally NOT to the US Government).

I am getting off on tangents again, so lets get back to fishing. New England growth after 1620 (especially after the Puritans settled after 1630) seems to be tied in with the growth of the Shipping industry in Europe. As ships became larger, the need to more and more people to breach and un-beach such ships became more and more important. Women were tied down to spinning thread, that was made into cloth by huge machines hauled by wagon to where the farmers were. The owner of the Machines would make the cloth out of the threads, in exchange for some of the Threads. The excess cloth was then sold to Ship owners to use as sails.

The above tend to be ignored in most History books, for its shows how economics affected the settlement of America more then any other reason, even religious freedom (Which itself was tied in with one's place in the economic situation in New England).

After 1800, New England's tie in with the Shipping industry started to die out. Manufacting slowly became more important. Farming became more important (For Example the Dukes of Wellington's main source of wheat for his troops, while he was fighting in Spain against Napoleon, was New England, even AFTER the start of the War of 1812, thus New England opposed the War, even while its sailors were being impressed, Support for the British was a profit center for New England between 1800 and 1820, profits to New England Farmers and New England Shippers and New England Sailors. This is strange given that during the US Revolution and for at least 100 years before, it was New England that wanted to be independent of England more then any other section of the English Colonies).

With the end of the War in Europe and the end of the War of 1812, New England farmers saw a lost of markets for their grain (Wellington's army went home) and New England Shippers saw less demand for shipping such wheat (again, do to the end of the War in Europe). The resulting unemployment (both small farmers and Civilian Sailors) saw a drop in income in New England, that forced both groups to look into the growing business of spinning cotton into cloth in huge factories. In turn, the growth of these Cotton Mills, lead to higher wages in New England by the 1830s, then the Irish came in and were willing to work for much less then Native New Englanders. Thus the Irish Catholic started to move to New England, ending New England's total control by the Congregationalists that had controlled New England since the early 1600s (By 1900s the Irish Catholics controlled large sections of New England). By that time, dry docks and Wet Docks were finally being built in the US to take care of the even larger ships being built, so the need to beach ships came to an end (The first dry dock in the US was built in Norfolk Virginia just before the US Civil War). Thus what had been a New England tradition slowly died out in the 1800s as ships became even bigger.

Yes, a went and covered a lot of material, for history is the interaction of people, and as such never simple (For Example, Oliver Cromwell, the "Victor" in the English Civil War, 1640-1650, was a radical Puritan, but in 1659 just a year before he die of natural cases, he lead his army to France, and in the Battle of the Dunes, fought along side French Troops, lead by the Catholic Cardinal Mazarin, against Spanish and English followers of the son of King Charles I, who Cromwell had executed for being to close to the Catholic Church. Yes, Cromwell fought along side a Catholic Cardinal against a fellow Protestant, the future King Charles II, in France. As his reward, England was given the City of Dunkirk, provided Cromwell agreed to protect the Catholics in Dunkirk, which Cromwell did. Dunkirk was later sold by Charles II to France, to pay off the Debts of Charles II. It was the last time Dunkirk was under English Rule, Dunkirk had been English off and on since the 1200s).

More on the Battle of the Dunes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dunes_(1658)

My point is history is NOT simple, it can be complex. Its complexity can make it interesting, but that same complexity can make it confusing, especially if you want consistency in history. Economics is a large part of History, but most people in the past and today, do NOT want to address economics, for it often leads to divisions (i.e. what helps the Upper Middle Class, may hurt the peasants, thus why the Upper Middle Class and the Rural areas that could get value from helping repair and operate larger ships turned to the Religion most tied in with Upper Middle Class Standards, while the Nobility and Peasants stayed with the Religion that best handled the interaction of such peasants with the Nobility. Religion became less important as the State assumed more and more control over the Economy, and with that control, religious disputes, other then theological arguments, died out.

It is easier to justify actions based on one's beliefs, but harder to justify one's action for it helps you economically at the expense of someone else. Thus religion and other dogmas (Communism, Ayn Rand etc) are used to justify doing harm to someone else, when that is to your best interests. Thus such dogma must be promoted and protected. That is why New England was settled, to help the shipping industry, which was tied in with the Reform Church movement in Western Europe. The Reform Church provided the dogma that the Upper Middle Class wanted to hear to justify what they did to the old Nobility and the Peasants. Many of today's leaders do NOT want to hear such information, for it makes it easier to look at the economic reasons why they are doing something, not the stated reasons. Thus history is poorly taught, to avoid showing people the economic reasons for people's actions in the past, turning to the easier to ignore religions or Political justifications instead, even when just justification made no sense at the time and less so today.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Actually, Holland practiced a more 'pure' form of
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 03:04 PM by coalition_unwilling
Protestantism (Calvinism mainly) than that represented by the liturgy of the Church of England, at least in the minds of the emigres from England. Tolerance is a sword that cuts both ways, as the proto-Puritans who left England were hardly tolerant themselves, whence the perjorative 'Puritan'.
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Brother Buzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
73. Three of my ancestors on the Mayflower never resided in Leiden
They left directly from England. Two were 'Strangers' and religion freedom was not the motivation for their voyage; think adventure and fortune.

Only a third of the passengers started from Holland.

That being said, I don't disagree with the body of your post.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
63. Are you the real Wednesday Addams?
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
77. I have not come across a textbook that has referred to
native Americans as savages in the last 30 years. If they quote original source material, they may refer to native Americans as savages. If anything I have seen examples in which native Americans are presented in almost entirely positive while those of European descent, when they interact with native Americans, in almost an universal negative light.
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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sarah Palin's proof that it wasn't that great some years ago - even in college (all five of them)
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wilt the stilt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hell with our students
how about our political leaders? I bet people like bachman and sarah would not be proficient.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Isn't this information part of the curriculum teachers have to impress upon children?
If not, it should be after this.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. The history they learn is lies...teach them the truth and they listen
History has been airbrushed into disney cartoons
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not understanding history is crucial
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 12:41 PM by Bragi
Clearly, if citizens are to be ignorant about where things are going, then it is vitally important they not know how we got to where we are.

The very existence of a compliant, ill-informed, easily-led electorate depends on profound and widespread misunderstanding of history.

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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. In Texas, the FIRST part of US history to Reconstruction is taught in the 8th
grade, and part 2, AFTER Reconstruction, is taught in the 11th grade, so there would be little surprise why 4th graders would know nothing about Abe Lincoln, and why 8th graders would not know Brown v Board.

Like ALL standardized tests, this one fails to account for the situation of each child.

Love to see the released test, to see which answers are deemed correct. For instance, the only advantage American forces had during the Revolution was much shorter supply lines than the Brits. Dollar to a donut the "correct" answer was the popularity of the Revolutionary cause, which was hardly the case, but nicely jingoistic.

I'll look to see if I can find the released test online, because this nonsensical article tells me nothing.

And YES, I do teach US History.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. Actually, there was a second advantage - the application of guerilla tactics
that had the big British armies chasing their tails, exhausting themselves, until the rebels could fight them under favorable circumstances. It was the British inability to pin down and destroy the colonials that make the war stretch out for so many years.

I wonder if Washington was familiar with Sun Tzu.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. That's what I was going to chime in to say
Home court advantage goes a long way in war.
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Especially when your enemy has other powerful
enemies (the French for example). We may have eventually acquired independence without the help of the French, but it probably would have come about more like Canada or Australia and not the way it actually played out.

If Lord Howe had pursued after New York and Brandywine, Washington probably would have been caught and hanged. We have his American mistress to thank for that delay.

I think a good counterfactual series would involve the French sitting on the sidelines during the Revolutionary War. Does someone know of such a series?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
48. "the only advantage American forces had ...."
Shorter supply lines.
Faster command-and-control chains.
Local troops who knew the weather and terrain better.
Guerilla tactics.
Local armory stocks.
Simpler enlistment/recruiting methods.
France, Spain, Dutch assistance and blockades.

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Citizen Worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. From Orwell's novel 1984: "Who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 12:43 PM by Citizen Worker
controls the past." If public school students learned the real history of the "shining city on the hill" they would be repulsed and we can't have that.

edit: to add quotation marks.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Mass knowledge of history represents the greatest potential threat against corporate supremacy.


History advocates contend that students’ poor showing on the tests underlines neglect shown the subject by federal and state policy makers, especially since the 2002 No Child Left Behind Act began requiring schools to raise scores in math and reading but in no other subject. The federal accountability law, the advocates say, has given schools and teachers an incentive to spend less time on history and other subjects.



Perhaps the corporate supremacist/religious fundamentalist PTB prefer a repetition of Alexandria?






http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1285313

Here clearly were the seeds of the modern world. What prevented them from taking
root and flourishing? Why instead did the West slumber through a thousand years of
darkness until Columbus and Copernicus and their contemporaries rediscovered the work
done in Alexandria?
I cannot give you a simple answer. But I do know this: there is no
record, in the entire history of the Library, that any of its illustrious scientists and scholars
ever seriously challenged the political, economic and religious assumptions of their society.
The permanence of the stars was questioned; the justice of slavery was not. Science and
learning in general were the preserve of a privileged few. The vast population of the city
had not the vaguest notion of the great discoveries taking place within the Library. New
findings were not explained or popularized. The research benefited them little. Discoveries
in mechanics and steam technology were applied mainly to the perfection of weapons, the
encouragement of superstition, the amusement of kings.
The scientists never grasped the
potential of machines to free people.* The great intellectual achievements of antiquity had
few immediate practical applications. Science never captured the imagination of the
multitude. There was no counterbalance to stagnation, to pessimism, to the most abject
surrenders to mysticism. When, at long last, the mob came to burn the Library down, there
was nobody to stop them.


The last scientist who worked in the Library was a mathematician, astronomer,
physicist and the head of the Neoplatonic school of philosophy - an extraordinary range of
accomplishments for any individual in any age. Her name was Hypatia. She was born in
Alexandria in 370. At a time when women had few options and were treated as property,
Hypatia moved freely and unselfconsciously through traditional male domains. By all
accounts she was a great beauty. She had many suitors but rejected all offers of marriage.
The Alexandria of Hypatia’s time - by then long under Roman rule - was a city under grave
strain. Slavery had sapped classical civilization of its vitality. The growing Christian
Church was consolidating its power and attempting to eradicate pagan influence and
culture. Hypatia stood at the epicenter of these mighty social forces. Cyril, the Archbishop
of Alexandria, despised her because of her close friendship with the Roman governor, and
because she was a symbol of learning and science, which were largely identified by the
early Church with paganism.
In great personal danger, she continued to teach and publish,
until, in the year 415, on her way to work she was set upon by a fanatical mob of Cyril’s
parishioners. They dragged her from her chariot, tore off her clothes, and, armed with
abalone shells, flayed her flesh from her bones. Her remains were burned, her works obliterated,
her name forgotten. Cyril was made a saint.b

The glory of the Alexandrian Library is a dim memory. Its last remnants were
destroyed soon after Hypatia’s death. It was as if the entire civilization had undergone some
self-inflicted brain surgery, and most of its memories, discoveries, ideas and passions were
extinguished irrevocably. The loss was incalculable.
In some cases, we know only the
tantalizing titles of the works that were destroyed. In most cases, we know neither the titles
nor the authors. We do know that of the 123 plays of Sophocles in the Library, only seven
survived. One of those seven is Oedipus Rex. Similar numbers apply to the works of
Aeschylus and Euripides. It is a little as if the only surviving works of a man named
William Shakespeare wereCoriolanus and A Winter’s Tale, but we had heard that he had
written certain other plays, unknown to us but apparently prized in his time, works entitled
Hamlet, Macbeth, Julius Caesar, King Lear, Romeo and Juliet.
Of the physical contents of that glorious Library not a single scroll remains.



Thanks for the thread, pettypace.
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Heretofor Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Simple explanation, maybe...
No printing press.

It's not that there was some grand conspiracy then to keep the masses ignorant, it's just that it was expensive to do so. Copying books by hand is hard. An agrarian economy without mechanization needs people in the fields, and whether "conspiratorial" or not, that's how civilization survived until mechanization and the printing press.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. That's true but the same restriction of having no printing press
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 02:46 PM by Uncle Joe
applied to the church as well, and yet their teachings were presented to the masses and religion combined with royalty dominated for the next millennium.

It came down to a question of priorities, having an educated, populace knowledgeable of the world and humanity's role in it or a people focused more on the next life than the one they were experiencing with their physical senses and sense of justice.

Ancient Athens had an agrarian economy with no printing press and yet that didn't prevent them from honoring mass education at least for a while until they started heading toward empire.

I'm of the mind that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, whether a conspiracy was done consciously or subconsciously, the results are the same and Hypatia’s death; (which certainly didn't happen in a vacuum) and the ensuing 1000 year Dark Age, are a direct result.

I also don't believe the inherent dynamic between that of corruption and power has changed over the ages, thus the modus operandi among the corrupted, powerful ones stays largely constant, keep the people ignorant and it becomes all the easier to manipulate them.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hardly surprising
Willful ignorance is an artform here.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. History is so yesterday
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. Of course this was predicted...
For three decades, high stakes testing has forced schools to focus only on what is on the test. Most of the time, that is math, basic reading (vocabulary), and simple declarative writing. Almost everything else like history, art, music, PE, science, geography, languages, and even "how to behave" were all abandoned. The interesting thing is that the highest scoring Eastern and European schools have some very different ways to school; but the best international results come from places that respect the teachers, foster individual growth instead of group testing, and promote creative thinking.

We should pay history majors competitive salaries as teachers along with a number of other important subjects. Remember that "those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it" (attributed to George Santayana in one form and Edmund Burke in another).
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
68. The best history teachers I had
were history majors. They had a passion for and understanding of history that was sorely lacking in vanilla teaching majors. That passion and understanding translated into excited teaching, which lead the students to become excited about the subject. It was infectious. My civics teacher (this is back 1991, they were still teaching it for a full year then) was a political science major, and he was passionate about teaching the subject, and we had FUN, with him going far beyond the bare bones textbook. So many history teachers teach only the textbooks, which are the worst, so very boring. History is so interesting (it's stories people! sex, war, alliances, etc!), and it's as if every effort has been made to drag it down and remove anything that is remotely entertaining.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. Baloney!
I bet they knew every contestant booted off "American Idol" and "Dancing With the Stars" so far this year. Who says they don't know history!
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. Maybe it's because our US history has become a political tool. Anybody can write their own
meaning to past events. Just ask Palin.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
53. History is ALWAYS political. There is no unbiased history.
The winner writes history and makes himself out to be the good guy.
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Nossida Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. The reasons are simple.
Most US Students read History books more
suited for flag waving, rather than an
objective review of the historical facts.
WW2 a shining example. Most Americans get
their History off the History/Disney channel,
which is utter drivel for the most part.
If space permitted, I could give you a
multitude of falsehoods I myself have heard
them spew. With many facts omitted, and in
many cases sheer Pro Western Propaganda.


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Lionel Mandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. You nailed it.
When I was in high school, the only history class every student had to take was US history. The stated purpose was to instill feelings of patriotism. This was in the 1950s and probably had something to do with fear of communism.

The textbook was BORING!!! The teacher was stupid. After being subjected to a year of that propaganda, it took me several years to get over my revulsion for history, and especially for American history.

In college I was required to take a year of "Western Civ." I wouldn't have taken it if it hadn't been required. Now I'm glad that I took it. I learned to distinguish the subject from the instructor. I learned that professors know more than graduate students do, and that with few exceptions the professors are more interesting to listen to than TAs. Also that I couldn't bullshit my way through a well-taught history class. It was actually necessary to think before I opened my mouth. I had had this experience before in math and science classes, but not in history.

Now I am enthusiastic about history, especially history of science and world war II. I read a lot and avoid the history channel.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
57. hmm...
Not to mention the rampant racism, sexism, classism, and ethnocentrism in most history textbooks.
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leftyohiolib Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. you dont need an education to say "would you like fries with that?"
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. Our teacher actually made us memorize the succession of royals from King Henry VIII on
I think that my teacher was pretty ignorant and uninspired, too.
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Corruption Winz Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. A bit of irony, I suppose...
Does anyone else find it funny that we continue to attempt to teach kids in the same manner within the same systems by the same means and they fail to learn? History, indeed, does repeat itself.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
58. Some
erudite individuals are addressing this. You might appreciate Sir Ken Robinson's videos regarding our species' dated and ineffective approach to educating ourselves. One of my faves is here


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Corruption Winz Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #58
80. Thanks, if I don't tire too early tonight, I'll probably check that out. nt
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Jeneral2885 Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
29. Frankly
speaking, i thought this is old news. Any please take it as a lesson to improve America's education system.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
30. Watching kids over the past 15 years,
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 02:03 PM by woo me with science
I have been incredibly impressed with the way they are taught math and language arts. The quality of the history programs have been less consistent. The lessons are usually very interesting and fun for the kids, but I think the main problem is that the subject is taught piecemeal.

The kids are often assigned one major project per unit, so they learn a great deal about one event or historical personality. Their knowledge of other things going on at the same time, and before and after, is very limited, and they don't get a sense of how what they are studying fits into the overall timeline of history.

They are limited in their awareness of how events affect each other and unfold over time. They may be aware of some specific events and people, but they struggle to really understand the difference between 1812 and 1942. If you asked them to name, chronologically, some of the most important events and ideas over a single century, they would have difficulty.

You can't teach history in isolated chunks. History requires an understanding of how events and ideas unfolded over time. I am not sure if this is a problem in other areas, but I have noticed it in two states and several schools.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. I think a big part of the problem
is that it's a lot easier to study something like how much being a slave sucked than it is to study something like how the compromises made during the writing of the constitution lead to the unravelling of the Union within three generations.

I remember spending a LOT of time on slavery in school. Like, hella time. Slavery is important, yes, but Professor XemaSab would spend more time on a variety of topics and instead of spending weeks on how much being a slave sucked.

The other big part of the problem is that there was very little in the way of narrative. I had textbooks where huge chunks of the book were long, autobiographical passages or character sketches, but the actual history didn't have any context or flow to it. Like there was almost nothing between the Founding and the Civil War other than a bunch of random skirmishes like the War of 1812 or the French and Indian War that didn't seem to connect anywhere, and then all of a sudden BAM! the US is in the Civil War.

If you'll indulge me, this is about how I'd set up a 12-semester plan for teaching the chilluns from 7th to 12th grade:

1 Geography
2 Ancient European and Middle Eastern History

3 The Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe and the Middle East
4 US History for Dummies (Introduce concepts that will be studied in more depth later)

5 The "Discovery" of the Americas and the history of the Colonies (with some discussion about Native Americans)
6 The Founding, the Revolutionary War, and pretty much everything up to the Civil War

7 The Constitution and Our Form of Government
8 US history from the Civil War (including a long discussion of the slave trade) up to the beginning of the Great Depression

9 History of the Western US (with some Mexican history and a lot of discussion about Native Americans)
10 Colonialism (with a special focus on Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia in the 19th and 20th centuries)

11 World History from 1928-1945
12 World History from 1945-Present (with a special focus on Communism in Europe and Asia)


It's Eurocentric, but it's a lot easier to trace thoughts and ideas in a direct line from the Ancient Europeans than from anywhere else. I also think you could get a lot more multi-ethnic stories included than just presenting them in the "fun facts" way in which they're currently presented.

There's no narrative in the way history is currently taught, and even though my plan obviously leaves stuff out, I think something like this would enable the teacher to have greater freedom with the material and try to convey the people and ideas to a greater extent than is currently possible. Seriously, spending one semester on US History before the Civil War is a crime, and spending another semester on US History since the Civil War is an even greater crime.


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MikeW Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. you left out a LOT of US history
post depression esp.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I'm proposing a semester to US and world history
from 1928-1945.

That's not enough?
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MikeW Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. what about the industrial revolution
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. The problem with this approach (see my other post)
is time. Narrow and deep or broad and shallow are the two choices. One possible solution is better integration of curriculum, but Social Studies shares the stage with Economics and Geography to just name two so how much time is really available. No way you can afford to devote two class periods to Social Studies.

I decided to educate my daughter at home this year in Social Studies and English for 7th grade. At school she would have spent a semester studying the River Civilizations to the Roman Empire, and another semester studying Physical and Human Geography. I decided to integrate English into Social Studies and made sure I at least covered the history to the depth at the school. I had my daughter read or watch plays about the period (derivative works of The Iliad and The Odyssey, Oedipus Rex, Julius Caesar, and How the Irish Saved Civilization). She also watched selections from I Claudius with me, read a juvenile biography of Augustus Caesar, and portions out of an extensive biography of Livia (this went into her term paper on Livia). We watched Eugen Weber's 52 episode The Western Tradition, but I did not have her do much in the way of writing after we completed Rome. Just not enough time. We did watch and discuss the episodes though, but it was like being hit with a firehose.

I am having her continue to read out of the Human Geography textbook and we are studying a World Atlas together. I did not cover the material I would like, but I know I covered a lot more than she would have in school, and her retention is better than she would have had at school. Logically Human Geography should come after a study of World History. Also with globalization I find Human Geography to be stuck in time - the world is much different place than it was even ten years ago.

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
32. They all know Paul Reverse rang bells to warn the British. Even that blowser from AK. nt
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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. "The bell heard round the world" was rung in Concord, NH, wasn't it?
...or was it Lexington, KY?
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redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. My youngest son got a perfect score on his US History and Govt Regents exam.
It is the state proficiency exam here in NY high schools. I think he may be the only student to have done that at our school.
Made us so incredibly proud!
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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
49. "China as the North Korean ally that fought American troops during the Korean War"
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 08:00 PM by cottonseed
Why would they need to know this? Really, what are the expectations for knowledge of "history". There's a LOT of God damn'd wars we fight. Whether China and North Korea where pals during the Korean war, you know, that other war between WWII and Vietnam in that 20 year period tacked on to the end of 6000 years of advanced human history. It's like getting pissed off that kids these days don't know who John Lennon was. Who gives a shit.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #49
71. If you knew that China, Russia, and NK were acting in collusion...
...You would be more likely to notice that Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Taliban are also working against the United States by drawing them into a far-away war in Asia that we cannot win.

But you don't give a shit, do you?

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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. It doesn't work that way. In real life for people with real jobs, 8th grade history
and a 1 hour lesson outlining shared interests of China, Russia, and NK during the Korean War isn't going to help me navigate these issues. It's just not. There are thought leaders and there is the press and then there is everyone else. If the thought leaders and press want to spend their time bemoaning the fact that 8th graders can't recall the exact reasons China and North Korea worked together in some war nobody knows or cares about they are more to blame then anyone for America's lack of understanding of current issues. So whether 8th graders can mine the depths of their memory for some obscure lesson learnt one day in 3rd period is something I pretty much don't give a shit about.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #74
82. Then you are condemned to the present.
And you will be much more likely to believe the lies you are told when the remainder of your future is stolen.

Unfortunately, you and two hundred million people like you will drag me with you.
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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. You're not as smart as you think you are.
I've been around long enough to realize this. "condemned to the present"? Please. You forgot why this was started. You're kind of just drifting off and I'll let you go now.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. You didn't even understand what that meant, did you?
But you're living it. Living the dream. Everything you've lost over the last thirty years was taken away from you through the use of time-tested tactics that you didn't have time to experience personally.

That's what history is: experience in a bottle. You don't drink of history, so you weren't able to recognize how it was happening, and refused to listen to those of us who did. The rest of your life will be solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short, and you probably think that "Hobbes" is a character in the funny pages.
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Galraedia Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. Republican's Distort the Truth
I have found through out my arguments with Republican's/teabaggers/right-wing nut jobs, that they are much more likely to have an altered version of actual history. For example, one once tried to tell me that Hitler was democratically elected and that the recession caused by the mismanagement of the Bush administration was actually cause by the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, which is complete bull.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
52. What they teach in history class isn't history anyway, it's nationalistic mythology.
Most people don't learn REAL history unless they take a college history course.
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. So what High School History textbooks
have you read? I hear the same argument on the other side (in fact I was the only naysayer during my church's The Truth Project - a Bible study which goes too far in claiming the Christian origins of the United States). A nationalistic mythology would not include the warts in our history. The textbooks I have seen spend plenty of time discussing these points. A large number of the questions on New York's exam of History for middle schoolers asks questions about these warts.

Slavery, Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee, Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, interventions/invasions, Jim Crow, etc. Sure you are going to find things left out of a 1000 page textbook covering 400 years of history. Just like a High School Physics or Chemistry textbook leaves out important information which is essential to really understanding the topic.

I agree that the nut cases in Texas are putting things in an American History textbook that should not be in there, but having a bowdlerized version of The Mayflower Compact without any reference to God or Christ is also a problem.

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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
75. that depends on the teacher and how well he/she knows the history
Even if a text lopsidedly presents Custer's last stand as pure good (Custer and US gov) against evil (the Native Americans), a good teacher would emphasize the other point of view as a counterweight to the mythology you're talking about.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #75
84. And whether or not the teacher's allowed to teach properly
Some regions micromanage their teachers more than others along those lines, and I've seen some places go to absurd extremes to make sure teachers stick to the tes - er, I mean, curriculum.

(At the other end, my two favorite teachers from high school were both specifically told by the school board they could teach what they wanted how they wanted; it was assumed they'd handle things better than the standard curriculum would.)
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
55. The Repukes want to keep our kids uninformed
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 10:10 PM by mvd
After all, an informed public might not do big business's bidding. The rich get the good schools under their privatization scheme. Sad, because there are so many advantages American forces had: French aid, knowing the land much better, quicker communications, the British having other wars going on, etc.
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LibertyLover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
64. Years ago I volunteered to go to my godson's high school history
class and do a class on ancient Egyptian history. I had slides from trips I'd made to Egypt to show as well. The presentation went very nicely and the kids were fascinated. Ed, my godson, had told me that he and his classmates hated history, but he liked it when I told him stories about it. It was afterwards, while talking to the teacher, that I realized part of the problem. For any high school history teachers out there, I am not painting with a broad brush, but after the class was over the teacher came up and thanked me and then said one of the most appalling things I've ever heard out of the mouth of a history teacher, or any other teacher for that matter. He said, "Gee, you sound like you really like this stuff." I told him that I loved history and that was why I had a degree or two in it. His response, "I can't stand it, but the summer vacations are nice." What do you say to that? I managed a very weak, "oh" and got the heck out of Dodge.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. "What do you say to that?" I would have reported it to principal and superintendent immediately
Any teacher who doesn't care for his/her subject, and/or the students, should find another line of work. And don't let the door hit them on the way out.
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LibertyLover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. If it had been my kid's teacher, I most certainly would have done
that, probably via a letter. However, it was my godson's teacher, so I reported the incident to his parents to deal with. I believe his mom may have done something.
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #64
76. You are so right
Bringing passion to the subject is the key. I love history as well even though I am an engineer. My oldest has lighted up in American History these past two years because her teacher loves it and it shows. I love talking with him, and I have a great deal of respect for him.

My oldest daughter's best classes have been with those teachers who love the subject. Be it Physical Science, Algebra, American History, or English - she has a different favorite subject each year just because of her teachers.

Unfortunately that only works with some students. Even though my daughter loved her 9th grade English teacher, she did not love the class because of the constant disruptions by other students. She had already come off two years of being taught English by someone who wants to coach and not teach English.

Between the disruptions and the lack of passion by a particular teacher, I made the decision to Homeschool my daughter in English and Social Studies for 7th grade, and we will continue with it in 8th grade.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
65. and I've taught high school students who don't know anything about slavery
much less who A. Lincoln was beyond president
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
70. One only needs to look at the present to know that.
Stealing elections

Starting wars on false pretenses

Corrupt Vice Presidents

Financial scandals

War profiteers

Serving hidden masters

Naked imperialism

Disaster profiteering

What made the Bush Administration unique was that they managed to duplicate the worst behavior of virtually all of the next nine worst Presidencies, and exceeded every one of them in magnitude, cost, and damage. But they didn't break much new ground.

They couldn't have gotten away with it if even a small percentage of Americans were aware enough of their own history to see the warning signs before the machinations of the Bush Administration could be successfully completed.

So Clio, the world's most unforgiving headmistress, made the United States take the condensed summer-school version of the class--and most of us slept through that, too.

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
78. Well, when so much funding is cut, what do they expect?
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Vehl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
79. It's easier for politicians ,demagogues and Corporations if people do not know history
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 05:20 PM by Vehl
That way they can continue to fool them with lies, and re-branded slogans. People who have knowledge of history will easily see through the BS , scapegoating and fear-mongering and zero in on the actual issues...we cannot have that now..can we?

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