Used cooking oil to be used as biofuel to fuel KLM flights to and from Paris

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Used cooking oil to be used as biofuel to fuel KLM flights to and from Paris
By Associated Press, Updated: Wednesday, June 22, 3:36 AM

AMSTERDAM — Dutch airline KLM says it plans to use recycled cooking oil as biofuel to power flights to and from France.

The carrier says that starting in September it will begin flights between Paris and Amsterdam using biofuel made from used cooking oil.

KLM managing director Camiel Eurlings said in a statement Wednesday that the airline does not have to make any changes to its aircraft engines to use the new biofuel.

The airline said the move is intended to help reduce KLM’s carbon emissions while having a “minimum negative impact on biodiversity and food supply.”






Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/used-cooking-oil-to-be-used-as-biofuel-to-fuel-klm-flights-to-and-from-paris/2011/06/22/AGfpLVfH_story.html

[Corruption Winz]

1. Hopefully, this pans out..

Maybe it'll cost a bit less and ticket prices might begin to die down a few nickels and dimes.

[Sherman A1]

2. Now, was

"this pans out" a pun???????

:rofl:

[Corruption Winz]

5. Lol. I can't believe that anyone caught it..

First response, too. As I chuckled while I was typing it, I just figured people were going to overlook it.

I believe a DU fist bump is in order. :fistbump:

[Judi Lynn]

7. Yep, I wondered if it was intentional, as well. Good one!

http://indocgroup.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Frying-Pan-Man-164x164.jpg

[Sherman A1]

10. It was indeed

Punny!


We should all go sit at the "Cool Kids table" now and let the rest envy our coolness!:toast:

[dipsydoodle]

3. All inflight meals will in future be restricted to

[pink-o]

62. well, French fries are really Belgium fries

...and the Netherlands once ruled Belgium, so it seems appropo that Amsterdam to Paris would be the route for the Pomme Frits flight!:7

[Odin2005]

11. "Pan", LOL!

[truthisfreedom]

4. This can only improve the smell of being stuck on the runway for 45 minutes

in queue. Or not, as the case may be.

[xchrom]

6. Cool. Nt

[JJW]

8. Extra order of them freedom fries

got to fuel the flight to freak land, Amerika.

[cigsandcoffee]

16. Not that Holland is freaky or anything.... n/t

[FailureToCommunicate]

9. Gee, how could using cheap cooking oil to fly jets adversely

affect food prices?

(KLM sez “...minimum negative impact on ... food supply.”)

[Ikonoklast]

22. It's already been used, it's no good for food anymore.

It will have no impact of food oil prices.

[formercia]

36. ...and besides...

..rescue crews prefer the smell of deep-fried Crispy Critters.

[polmaven]

12. That explains it!!!

I thought I smelled french fries!!!!

[Javaman]

13. Yeah, cooking oil...about that...

how was that cooking oil manufactured? how much fossil fuels went into it's creation.

So while KLM likes to taut this as "green", it is actually very far from green.

It's just moving the goal post a little further down the field.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. Que?

This is *used* cooking oil - a waste product. If you have any alternatives to offer other than petro jet A, I'm all ears.

It's nice to see that they got past the temperature-gelling problems of bio-Jet-A. At least I really hope they have... in all likelihood the "bio" fuel contains a small percentage of bio added to the usual petro Jet A. Same as the "biodiesel" pumps we see at normal fueling stations. You have to dig deep to find B100 or B99, and the B20 normally found at, for example, Exxon, can be a blend of anything from B5 to B20.

[Javaman]

15. I don't care if it's waste or not...

it still has to be manufactured at some point.

On top of that, it's the waste product of cooking. Unless the restaurants were using solar fry cookers, those same stoves were either using gas or electricity for power.

And unless that electricity was powered by wind or solar, it was more than likely powered by coal. Which the last time I checked was a fossil fuel.

using cooking oil is nice, but the reality is, it's not as clean as you think.

it's still a waste product from a source that more than likely uses fossil fuel. And if it's vegetable cooking oil, than it most certainly was manufactured using fossil fuels. and the vegetables from which it originated was probably from a factory farm which uses gross amounts of fossil fuels to grow those same vegetables.

As the price of fossil fuels go up, so will the price of cooking oil and so will will the price of it's disposal as "waste" for it's reuse.

Thinking cooking oil as being "free" clean fuel is ignorant.

[uppityperson]

18. If the option is throwing it away, I am all for it being used rather than trashed

[Javaman]

19. while that might be true, saying it's green is still incorrect.

recycling is wonderful, but given the fact that this creates demand, then it no longer becomes waste but a product.

As such, it still requires fossil fuels to produce.

And given this is the airline industry, for them to ramp up for a fleet, this would create additional CO2 as industry then starts producing cooking oil for airline use.

It's one thing for someone who drives a diesel to synthesize their own bio-diesel for their own use via the local used cooking oil from a fast food place. It is another thing entirely when an industry suddenly uses it for it's production.

[uppityperson]

20. i agree that it will change demand, turn it into a product vs using waste

[Javaman]

57. Thank you, finally someone who gets it. nt

[Thor_MN]

45. Some would complain if they were hung with a new rope.

Talk about your nattering nabobs.

Hydro requires concrete which requires baking limestone which requires... fossil fuel energy.

Wind requires steel which requires... fossil fuel energy.

Solar requires electronics... FFE...


I guess we are well and truely fucked and shouldn't do a damn thing, because somewhere down the road it isn't truely green.

[Javaman]

56. yet another zero to 60 answer.

it's either one way or no way to you right?

While I have clearly stated time and time again that cooking oil isn't as green as people would like to think, point to me exactly where I say, not to use it? Not to recycle?

It's really insulting for people who, rather than ask me directly, feel they need to insult me behind my back before actually reading my posts. j

I'm a reasonable person and as such I am open to a real discussion, but it seems I piss off people when I point out the hypocrisy of the green movement as if it is some sort of holy grail.

The failure of many people here on DU and society as a whole is they fail to understand what open loop and closed loop recycling in means. Open loop is cradle to grave. That means the end product can't be reused again. Closed loop is cradle to cradle. Meaning that the end product can be used again without any adverse effects on society or the system.

Recycling is always good, but please don't confuse the recycling of cooking oil as closed loop, because it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Right now a typical passenger jet burns 1 gallon of fuel per second. Let that sink in. Now think of just one large airline, having hundreds of flights per day. Now think of the amount of cooking oil that would be needed to keep those planes in the air?

right now, recycling cooking oil falls into the novelty category and covers the current need for that hobbyist sector. Now think of it being used on a wide spread basis. Several studies have already shown, that there just isn't enough cooking oil to go around if we all started recycling cooking oil for our vehicles. Now imagine airlines ramping up it's use.

At the amount they require in volume, someone has to step in to manufacture that same oil, because now there is a demand. The seed stock, the farming and the manufacturing process to make that cooking oil is not a closed loop recycling process.

Which means that a factory would have to keep pumping out NEW cooking oil, that was once recycled, for the airlines.

Then we get back to co2 footprint of it's manufacture. And THAT is what I'm talking about.

While the reuse and recycling of cooking oil is wonderful on a small scale, it would truly suck on a large scale.

[Thor_MN]

63. And you have made zero leaps while pissing in their cheerios.

They are talking WASTE oil. No one has suggested using new cooking oil to fuel plans. The waste oil's CO2 footprint is fully depreciated as it's never going to be used again as cooking oil. And speaking of closed loop, you are the only one that is doing it. They never implied that it was closed loop.

So they find a use for waste oil, save some jet fuel, and some find the need to vehemently piss all over the story. Have a nice day.

[Ikonoklast]

23. So, we should stop growing food?

You are completely wrong on this, they are using a resource that was previously of little value, and turning into a viable transportation fuel, taking the place of refined petroleum.

It's being recycled, and can be done so very efficiently.

It is a very green solution.

[Javaman]

27. you are missing the point.

of course you choose instead to go from zero to 60.

All I'm stating is: cooking oil isn't as green as people like to think.

It takes fossil fuels to manufacture it and if an airline ramps up it's use, just like ethanol, there will be a whole industry devoted to just making cooking oil for the airline(s),

Which gets back to the carbon foot print. And it is the same argument that is used for ethanol production.

It's just plain stupid to create an industry based on a food product that no one eats but is burned as fuel.

and getting back to your snarky remark about "should we stop growing food", no and yes. No, we don't stop growing food, but yes, we use a different means instead of using fossil fuels in the machinery, pumping ammonia into the ground and using natural gas for the fertilizers.

Organic methods have proven to yield as much if not more food under equal circumstances as fossil based growing methods.

Then and only then will any by product from the ag industry will be truly green.

And your statement of saying, "they are using a resource that was previously of little value" is completely and utterly wrong. cooking oil has been reused and cleaned for decades. this isn't anything new.

[Ikonoklast]

28. Cooking oil has never been re-used beyond a certain point.

You can only re-use it so many times after each heating, as each time the 'smoke point' the temperature at which the oil starts to smoke gets lowered.

Too low a smoke point, and the food doesn't get cooked correctly, rancidity in flavor is apparent as heat breaks it down a little each time, and the oil then gets replaced with fresh.

It used to go for animal feed, or was then discarded.

It would be too expensive to use virgin oil stock for biodiesel, that is why discarded used oils are being used.

You used to have to *pay* someone to pick up used cooking oil, it had so little value.


So, I suppose we should just go back to tossing it out instead of re-using it, because somewhere along the chain fossil fuels were involved in its manufacture.

[Javaman]

31. ...

:banghead:

where the hell did I say that???

You, like the other poster, completely missed my point.

All I am saying is: it is not as green as people would like to think.

Holy shit.

did you even bother to read my post?

you know what? fuck it.

Trying to educate people on the concept of cradle to cradle recycling is futile.

I give up.

[kestrel91316]

48. Ok, let's make this real simple, dude. Which is greener - fossil fuel, or used cooking oil?

You have 10 seconds.

[Javaman]

55. quick answer

it's a stupid question.

point me where I said not to use it? Show me where I didn't say it wasn't good to recycle?

You, like everyone else on this thread, you seem to enjoy putting words in my mouth.

I'm trying to point out the painful obvious, but alas, you all seem to enjoy to ignore what I'm saying.

As I have stated time and time, "it's not as green as you think".

What part of that don't you want to comprehend? It requires fossil fuel to manufacture and grow. Plus it needs a mono-crop seed stock to manufacture. Which is corn. Corn is cheap, grows fast and has major corporate friends.

I'm tired of pointing out the bleeding obvious to people who choose to keep their heads in the ground, just look below at my response to #54.

[Psephos]

30. All cooking oil is of biological origin. n/t

[Javaman]

40. oh for the love of god...

did you even read my post?

Do I have to keep repeating myself?

it's the fucking manufacture of the oil that I'm concerned with.

Fuck!

[Psephos]

41. Yes, I read your post, and your language is ambiguous.

Which means others reading it may conclude that cooking oil has mineral origins, regardless of what you think.

My statement, otoh, is unambiguous.

Don't read into it what isn't there.

[Javaman]

42. This is ambiguous?

I stated, "it's still a waste product from a source that more than likely uses fossil fuel. And if it's vegetable cooking oil, than it most certainly was manufactured using fossil fuels. and the vegetables from which it originated was probably from a factory farm which uses gross amounts of fossil fuels to grow those same vegetables."

Then I go on to say a little further down thread...

"It takes fossil fuels to manufacture it and if an airline ramps up it's use, just like ethanol, there will be a whole industry devoted to just making cooking oil for the airline(s)"

I don't honestly know where the hell you get ambiguous from any of that.

So again, did you read my post?

[Psephos]

43. I pulled it out of thin air just to create trouble, because I had nothing better to do.

:eyes:

[Javaman]

44. that explains it. everyone needs a hobby. nt

[kestrel91316]

47. When the alternative is FOSSIL fuels, used cooking oil wins all the way around.

Go back to the cave you crawled out of and let US do the thinking.

[Javaman]

49. Ah yes, yet another person who didn't read my post...

my issue isn't with the cooking oil per say, but how it's manufactured. Given the fact that this is a test flight and if it was successful, that means the airline(s) will be ramping up it's use.

There isn't enough waste cooking oil to fill the gap, so therefore it has to be manufactured. Cooking oil, in this case vegetable cooking oil, is manufactured by fossil fuel based machinery. The seed crop is grown via fossil fuel factory farms.

You can get pissed at me all you want, but the reality is, you only get one chance to recycle it. And once it's gone, it's gone. More has to come from somewhere, thus creating a demand. Which in turn creates more CO2 during it's manufacture.

people fail to understand the concept of cradle to cradle manufacturing. And as such, keep spouting off over just how "clean" it is, when in reality the process of open looped recycling actually is very far from clean.

but then again, people enjoy their ignorance. it keeps them warm at night.

[CleanGreenFuture]

59. I tried to friend you because you and I share some common interests but...

...when I try it says that I have to be a donor. Can't donate right now but when I can I'll give you a shout.

[Javaman]

60. Thanks. :)

Cheers.

[CleanGreenFuture]

58. Why didn't you read the post? And is this the way people treat each other

around these parts?

"Go back to the cave you crawled out of and let US do the thinking."

Really?


Really?

[kestrel91316]

46. So they should just dispose of their used cooking oil in landfills?

Or maybe you have a BETTER idea? Pour it down the drain, perhaps??

[Javaman]

50. Really? is that what you got from my post?

Where did I ever say I was against using it?

yet another person who fails reading comprehension.

In each and every one of my post I point out that's not as clean as people like to think. That it's the result of a fossil fuel based process. And if the airlines choose to use this as fuel, then it's production will be ramped up. Causing more co2 in the air from it's manufacture and from the factory farms using fossil fuels for the seed crop.

I honestly don't think you are that dense, but are just trying to stir the pot of ignorance. Which I might add, is very unattractive.

If you want "green" then be green, not sort of, kind of green.

[octothorpe]

53. I get what you're saying, and I'm sure others do too.. However,

using your criteria for what is considered 'green' would pretty much make all production and human activity "ungreen". The only true "green" solutions are green jello and the ceasing of human activity. Really, using used cooking oil waste is a greener solution if it catches on, as it would reduce the amount of fossil fuels required over time. At least in a perfect world. In reality, the fossil fuels not used by the airlines would cause a decrease in demand, thus a decrease in price, and thus an increase of in demand for other uses.

I think.
I dunno. Thoughts?

[Javaman]

54. and again, you don't seem to get it either...

if they ramp up production, it would require copious amounts of fossil fuels to manufacture the cooking oil. (not even including the amount of cooking oil for a single flight. the average passenger jet uses one gallon of fuel per second. let that sink in for a while).

thus making it just another by product of the fossil fuel industry.

right now, as a cottage industry, the "green" movement loves to try and convince people that cooking oil recycling is completely green. It is not. It's just recycling, but not green.

Every single thing we do, use, manufacture and yes, even recycle, uses fossil fuels in one way shape or form.

I will give you an outside of the loop example of how recycling cooking oil isn't green aside from it's manufacture.

How do they retrieve the cooling oil? are the airlines picking up this used cooking oil in electric trucks? (which get their power from the grid, which is powered in the majority by coal). Are they using hybrid trucks? (which still use fossil fuels) I seriously doubt it. Then the facility that recycles the oil, is that solar or wind powered? While the process to recycle the oil maybe "green", all the ancillary support systems all run on fossil fuel.

Until we really understand the concept of cradle to cradle recycling and reuse, any form of recycling cooking oil for reuse is still using fossil fuels. Plus, once that oil is used, they still have to get more. Thus starting an industry solely for the airlines for their cooking oil (because there currently isn't enough used cooking oil to go around), which then spews more co2 and other heavy metals into the air.

[bikebloke]

17. Potat frites met mayonaise

Yum! What's for the in-flight snack? Vla or stroop vafel?

[CTyankee]

24. what is vla and stroop vafel?

sounds like you know Dutch food. I am going there in October. Tell me what is good to eat there!

[bikebloke]

25. Here are a few.

Vla is a kind of pudding. With friends, they always had it for dessert, sometime sprinkling muesli over it.

Stroop vafel is two thin round waffles with syrup in between. "Syrup waffle" translated into English.

There's drop. Licorice, though can be a bit salty.

Plus, whatever those rolls are from the hot vending machines.

There's a traditional fare with potatoes, onion and something else. Long ago, I tried to make it once, but it wasn't as good as my friends made it in Holland. So I didn't try again, which is why I can't remember the third ingredient.

[CTyankee]

26. Thanks! I'll be travelling by barge going to several little towns so I am looking

forward to the local fare. I'll be in Amsterdam, Haarlem, Lieden, the Hague, Delft, Rotterdam and Gouda. It is with a small art study group...

[smirkymonkey]

33. Also, they have some great Indonesian restaurants - try ordering

a Rijsstaffel (sp) - it traslated as a rice table with many indonesian delicacies and spices. It's delicious it you go to a decent Indonesian restaurant.

[bikebloke]

37. Gott's Pot

I remembered. Potatoes, onions and carrots. There was some war with the Spanish, and this all they had to eat, so they mixed it together.

[bitchkitty]

38. you mean hutspot?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutspot

[bikebloke]

39. That's it.

I'd never seen it spelled, only heard the term. I thought it might have the Dutch "G".

Thanks.

[smirkymonkey]

32. I don't know what they do to their frites, but they really are delicious

- and you don't have to eat them with mayonnaise, they usually have a variety of toppings, but ketchup usually isn't one of them. They are so tasty, you don't even really need a topping, just a little salt and pepper. Stroop vaffels are pretty good too - especially if you warm them first over a cup of tea or coffee.

[KamaAina]

21. zOMFG! Now the chemtrails will smell like French fries!!

:tinfoilhat:

[hunter]

29. Distance between Paris and Amsterdam is similar to San Francisco - Los Angeles

A train powered by French nuclear electricity makes the trip in three hours eighteen minutes.

[Remmah2]

34. As long as Ronald McDonald is not the air traffic controller.

Sounds like a good plan.

[OverDone]

35. That is neat

So many different fuel options out there, that we should be using.

[wordpix]

51. FINALLY a reason to go to McDonald's & KFC

:evilgrin: :toast:

[defendandprotect]

52. Will our skies smell like Burger King? Why not hemp oil ... ???

[formercia]

64. One of the reason hemp was banned in the US

Hemp seeds produce large amounts of high quality oil. It had been used as Lamp oil for generations but Standard Oil didn't like it competing with Petroleum. It really wasn't about Drugs, It was about Oil.

[Name removed]

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