School Discipline Study Raises Fresh Questions

[alp227]

Source: The New York Times

Raising new questions about the effectiveness of school discipline, a report scheduled for release on Tuesday found that 31 percent of Texas students were suspended off campus or expelled at least once during their years in middle and high school — at an average of almost four times apiece.

When also considering less serious infractions punished by in-school suspensions, the rate climbed to nearly 60 percent, according to the study by the Council of State Governments, with one in seven students facing such disciplinary measures at least 11 times.

The study linked these disciplinary actions to lower rates of graduation and higher rates of later criminal activity and found that minority students were more likely than whites to face the more severe punishments.

“In the last 20 to 25 years, there have been dramatic increases in the number of suspensions and expulsions,” said Michael Thompson, who headed the study as director of the Justice Center at the Council of State Governments, a nonpartisan group. “This quantifies how you’re in the minority if you have not been removed from the classroom at least once. This is not just being sent to the principal’s office, and it’s not after-school detention or weekend detention or extra homework. This is in the student’s record.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/education/19discipline.html

[jtuck004]

1. That's good, 'cause I hate stale questions. n/t

[No Elephants]

6. Besides, fresh questions and fresh kids kind of go together.

Ok, not great, but I gave it a shot.

[bluestateguy]

2. When you burden teachers with overcrowded classrooms

I bet you they will be more prone to look for reasons to get rid of troublemakers by 86ing them to the principal's office, rather than babysitting them in the classroom.

[SheilaT]

3. In 2003 or 2004 my son was suspended

from school for three days for showing up at a school function obviously under the influence of alcohol. I was mortified, as (like so many parents) I was unaware that he was doing things like this.

A year or so later he was arrested for possession of marijuana. It is extremely fortunate that the jurisdiction we lived in had a benign approach to a first-time under age offender. He had to complete several drug-abuse related programs, report this to his high school, undergo drug testing for about six months -- which I'm sure he cheated his way through. But because he wasn't criminalized, and because he was basically a good kid, we got through it. He completed the diversion program (as they call it there), finished high school, went to college, and is a reasonably successful young adult today.

Yes, there need to be sanctions of some sort. It helps a lot if parents are involved, as we were. It also helped that the college he went to really did not care at all about that incident. They didn't even rescind his partial scholarship. Maybe what made the most difference was that in his freshman year at college he met a young woman that he dated the rest of the way through college. They broke up several months after graduation, but I sometimes think that her influence also helped him a lot.

[jtuck004]

4. "which I'm sure he cheated his way through"

:rofl::smoke:


And, I suspect your involvment was a tremendous help in getting him get through everthing else that really mattered.

[SheilaT]

5. We still refer to that time as

"The Year From Hell".

In the spring of his senior year he moved out of the house, and we didn't really know where he was staying, although we correctly guessed he was with a particular friend. A couple of times a week I'd drive over to his high school to see if his car was in the parking lot, because my biggest fear was that he'd simply stop attending school. But he actually did attend, although his grades dropped precipitously during that time. His teachers knew that something was going on, and they treated him gently. It helped a lot that he was attending a small independent school, rather than being lost in a huge suburban high school.

After about six weeks he called us up and asked if he could move back home, which we readily agreed to. It's hard to describe, or even remember, how incredibly angry I was at him at that time. What I wanted more than anything was to make his life the living hell I felt mine had become. Fortunately, my husband had a cooler mind about this. When he asked to come back we readily agree, just setting some limits about curfew and drugs, which he seemed to obey. He graduated, we had a less than wonderful summer, and he went off to college. By the time we waved goodbye to him at his dorm, he was much happier. When we saw him again a couple of months later he was completely transformed. I think what he needed more than anything was to get away from home and his parents.

These days he's gainfully employed, has moved to Portland, Oregon, and in his spare time is going to the various comedy club open mike nights and seeing if he can make it in stand-up.

Shakespeare said it best: All's well that ends well.

[No Elephants]

7. Glad it ended well. Robert Downey, Jr.'s wife was the only thing that

straightened him out. (At least, he seems to be straightened out.) Thank goodness your son met his reformed before things got to the Downey level. Then again, I'm sure you weren't sharing joints with your son while he was practically still in diapers, as did Downey's dad.

Anyway, thank goodness your son fared better.

[ejpoeta]

11. I think the biggest problem with schools is this no tolerance every punishment fits every infraction

Now, I understand the why, but it reality they just don't want to have to get to know the kids or to have to take the time to take them individually. If you have a good kid that has never had any problems who has done something stupid at school, then say when i was a kid (i am 38) they would take into consideration what was going on at home. my mom was sick or something.... That's not to say I wouldn't get into trouble for whatever it was, but it would be based on the situation. I never got into drugs though.

I am glad your kid got his life back on track. That is the time they need to be guided instead of thrown away. And as a parent we are always wondering what to do and you are never really sure because each child reacts differently to different things. I am glad you set down rules before you let him come back. That probably helped.

We all struggle in our lives. We do it in different forms. I just wish the schools were able to deal with it. Unfortunately there are those who don't seem too concerned about that. They don't want to have to pay taxes and they think they pay too much already. School costs too much! Yeah right. I'd say it should cost more! How much is it going to cost when these kids end up in jail instead of school and working and paying taxes because they were thrown away because schools don't have the money to pay teachers to keep classroom sizes down so they can teach these kids so they don't act out and can learn and on and on it goes.

[AngryAmish]

14. There was hardly a high school function is showed up to while sober

1. Didn't go to many high school functions. The main problem with them is they are filled with high school students.
2. It is unfair to ask students to do these sorts of things sober. I sure wouldn't (and did not) do it.

[No Elephants]

8. Linked, but which is the chicken and which is the egg? Or is that the wrong perspective?

"The study linked these disciplinary actions to lower rates of graduation and higher rates of later criminal activity and found that minority students were more likely than whites to face the more severe punishments."

A kid who is acting out in school is likely to bring on himself or herself disciplinary actions AND not learn much. Similarly, a kid who is not learning much is likely to act out in school.

Is the increase in disciplinary actions a reflection of a host of societal factors, or are disciplinary actions somehow causing failures to graduate?

Say what you will about religion--and I am for meticulous separation of church and state--fearing you might burn in hell for all eternity if you step out of line probably had some impact on the behavior of both adults and children when that belief was almost universal. So did widepread unquestioning respect for and obedience to authority, from police to teachers to elected officials. Neither of those things abounds anymore.

[jtuck004]

10. I can tell you from experience that the thought of burning in hell

never entered my mind, even after 5th and 6th grade in a little private Baptist-church-run school, and not after being made to go to church 2-3 times a week (is that more points?) for 9 or 10 years. Dad was a bit of a hitter, (though he only chained me to a fence once) but that taught me to be really good at not getting caught. Not the behavior he meant to teach, I suspect. I got rid of most of the superstitious stuff, and I think we get better behaved kids when they are raised at least partially on a farm, not in church.

True believers - in my earlier years at public school my mom sent a note to the school (4th grade) to not allow me to learn square dancing, lest I come home smelling like brimstone. It's a different kind of hell to sit in your desk and watch the entire damn class participating in something that you can't. Not good for your social life. :)

Maybe that's where I began to part ways with my Republican background and friends and begin to understand that there is nothing equal about separate - one of the few memorable lessons from that time period, good for a white kid...

Interesting comment in the paper at the op's link:

“We don’t really know enough about the reasons for African-American and Latino over-representation in school discipline. We have enough data to show that it’s more than just poverty and any greater misbehavior. My guess is it’s very subtle interactional effects between some teachers and students.”

"...subtle interactional effects..."

Maybe it wasn't subtle enough.

[mwb970]

12. Kids seem to see through religious BS better than adults.

I knew the Santa Claus story was false when I was 5 (sorry, reindeer can't fly, I saw them at the zoo), and the whole God-Jesus-Trinity-Saviour story sounded so much more wildly improbable and obviously untrue (sorry, virgins don't give birth, I read a biology book) than the Christmas tall tale I'd seen through so easily that I rejected it out of hand. As a child. Nothing I have seen or heard since has changed my mind.

[No Elephants]

Linked, but which is the chicken and which is the egg? Or is that the wrong perspective?

"The study linked these disciplinary actions to lower rates of graduation and higher rates of later criminal activity and found that minority students were more likely than whites to face the more severe punishments."

A kid who is acting out in school is likely to bring on himself or herself disciplinary actions AND not learn much. Similarly, a kid who is not learning much is likely to act out in school.

Is the increase in disciplinary actions a reflection of a host of societal factors, or are disciplinary actions somehow causing failures to graduate?

Say what you will about religion--and I am for meticulous separation of church and state--fearing you might burn in hell for all eternity if you step out of line probably had some impact on the behavior of both adults and children when that belief was almost universal. So did widepread unquestioning respect for and obedience to authority, from police to teachers to elected officials. Neither of those things abounds anymore.

[No Elephants]

9. Dupe.

[WatsonT]

13. Researchers have devised a revolutionary new device that is effective at reaching problem students

[NashVegas]

15. I'm Sure This Is a Better Representation For Helping Problem Students

[WatsonT]

16. Schools can't really fix families though

and it's not their job to do so.

[NashVegas]

17. Yeah, I Know

And I'm beginning to suspect that this is why we're going to be stuck with "school reform" to separate out problem kids from problem homes and put them in the equivalent of hopeless reform schools or worse; more and more of the people who make raising their kids to strive (as opposed to survive) are fed up and questioning why they should have to pay an additional $12k-$22k a year just so their kid can attend a school w/out so many fights, weapons & drugs.

[WatsonT]

18. I think in the long term

offering free birth control and sex education to everyone (but with a focus on poorer communities), no questions asked will be the best solution.

But something does need to be done about violence/discipline problems in schools. As long as that's an issue there is no way for those who wish to learn to do so. And that's a structural rather than financial problem.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. This post cannot be accurately described while abiding to DU posting rules. -nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. That's against the law in most states.

Thankfully.

[WatsonT]

23. Yeah, thank goodness

banning corporal punishment has eliminated all discipline problems in schools.

Teachers are now highly respected and can go about their jobs in perfect safety.

[bemildred]

19. Children ought not be in class unless they are willing.

There ought to be other alternatives for children not yet ready for classroom instruction.

[WatsonT]

24. That means that virtually no one will get an education

the student who actually wants to sit down and learn algebra is a rare one.

[bemildred]

25. I must be "virtually no one" then.

There is nothing like a manual job to make one appreciate the virtues of a good education. The problem is that our educational system has been so corrupted by greed for money and power that it no longer educates, it merely indoctrinates, and even that is not done well.

[Yo_Mama]

22. I am not sure this is at all valid

Both my brothers were extremely good students, and both had multiple suspensions. For fighting. Bullies. One of my older brother's suspensions was the max, and my Dad had to go to attend a conference to get him back in.

It seems to me that not much has changed.

Admittedly, my older brother is still recorded as a dropout, but that is because he dropped out to go to college full-time when he was 16. Drop-out stats can be highly misleading too.