Microsoft IT Hiring Problems Bogus, Say Programmers

[Newsjock]

Source: Information Week

What IT labor shortage? That's what reps for unemployed programmers and other IT workers are asking in response to Microsoft's claim that it needs to import more foreign help because the United States isn't producing enough individuals with the high-tech skills it needs.

Workers' advocates say that if big tech companies are having a tough time finding qualified employees it's only because they are limiting their searches to younger, less expensive workers.

"Experienced IT workers who are over 40 years old have a hard time even getting noticed by companies like Microsoft," said Rennie Sawade, communications director for WashTech, an affiliate of the Communications Workers of America. "They're really after the younger, more inexpensive workers."

Sawade also rejects claims by Microsoft and other high-tech employers that more experienced IT workers are not getting hired because they lack skills in hot new areas like cloud and mobility. "I doubt the ones they are bringing over on H-1B visas necessarily have those skills. They give them a three-week crash course and then call them a Java programmer."

Read more: http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/microsoft_news/231300189

[OhioChick]

1. Micro$hit is full of shit n/t

[DocMac]

20. This is absolute bullshit!

My brother is a QA Director. What is the real truth is that these recruiters KNOW that they can make more money off the foriegn workers and keep the same billing rate and who's resume do you think gets sent most often? We discuss this problem all the time. What is worse, many of these companies hang onto the "mass manual testing" and fear the complicated tools, and these manual testers make $35/hr or more. My brother trained students to do manual testing for the University of Memphis and it isn't difficult, as I understood.

It is absolute bullshit to push our young people aside. The manual testing effort does not need to be outsourced and training can handle the tools. On the bright side, my brother does the interviews.

[ChromeFoundry]

2. I have several friends that work for MS...

This is absolutely 100% correct.
Microsoft will only hire someone over 40, in a development role, if it is to fill a specialized niche position where only someone with a lot of years of experience could fill.

[idlisambar]

10. Microsoft will generally hire the best person it can get

Your friends and this article are missing the picture. There are a lot of people over 40 at Microsoft in development, and as time goes on the demographics shift older still. The main factor at work here is that after a certain age the pool of top talent that wants to work in development as an individual contributor gets smaller. By 40 if someone is really good they more than likely will have taken on a leadership role (exceptions exist of course). Microsoft hires older development managers all the time.

Your comment about "specialized niche positions" does not ring true at all. There aren't many such positions at Microsoft in which only an old hand from outside would be needed. There are some niches, in the sense of old code that is in maintenance mode, but these niches are typically filled by Microsoft veterans who have a lot of history with the area.

[ixion]

14. If they're always hiring the 'best person', then why is their software crap?

Using your logic, they should have the best software, they don't. In fact, M$ has a reputation for writing (and worse, releasing) bug-ridden software full of security holes.

Sorry, your defense of M$ doesn't ring true.

The other thing is that I know one of the chief architects there. He's an idiot who I wouldn't trust to write my website.

[idlisambar]

17. it's the same everywhere

Not a MS specific issue. The story is no different at IBM, Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc.

Whatever your personal experience with Microsoft products, all of these companies hire from the same talent pool. MS doesn't always hire the best person but the standard is high.

As for your "Chief Architect", that is not a real title. The title "Chief Software Architect" has been held by exactly two people in MS history -- Bill Gates and Ray Ozzie, both are no longer with MS -- but both could easily handle a website.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idlisambar]

18. Been on the site since 2003

When I worked on Dean campaign. Infrequent poster but like the links in Editorials.

I don't know anything about nursing. I do know about the software industry.

[ChromeFoundry]

16. Microsoft rarely hires 40+ tech pros

because they like their employees to work long hours and they like to pay them lower than what an individual more seasoned would demand. The work/family balance is less of a demand from a younger person. Health insurance premiums drop as your workforce is lowered. And when you ship jobs overseas, you don't have to worry about those pesky labor laws found here in the states. Of course, there are exceptions to this general practice where the projects demand. Project leads and managers often are promoted from the internal pool of guppies.

Granted, Microsoft does create some incredible software (as do all of their competitors) it could be much better and incorporate fewer bugs if the architects and the entire development teams where more seasoned. Their code reviews would also take 1/3 of the time... but their profits in the short term would take a hit. The picture they do not see is that over the long term, their image would increase as the quality elevated. But this would not show immediate results in their quarterly profit statements, so it's not a priority.

When I mentioned "specialized niche positions" I was not referring to legacy products; Acquisitions and their consistent robbery from external technologies is the area I was keying in on - and their legal staff to handle litigation, of course!

I believe that I am seeing the bigger picture here, and you are still starstruck by the Emerald City in Redmond. Sometimes it helps if you take off the sunglasses and take an unfiltered look. I don't see them as the great evil Satan that most like to point fingers at... but I also don't see them gaining canonization for sainthood anytime soon either.

[idlisambar]

19. I think we agree on some things

I agree that projects go more smoothly with experienced and skilled people doing the work. A bad programmer can sap a lot of resources.

The main point I wanted to make is that the 40+ thing is not MS specific at all, it is a feature of the industry. At least at the world class firms. If anything, Google is even more geared to the young hire. My point about having a thinner talent pool for top older IC's also stands. The typical career path of a star in the industry is to take on a leadership role by a certain age. A lot of folks also just get burnt out by coding and head to the business-oriented roles.

It's true, there is a lot of internal hiring in Microsoft but that's true in a lot of places. Insiders will have the advantage of familiarity and access that can give them an edge.

On "niche positions", I can see that with acquisitions and I don't know about legal at all so I'll take your word for it.

[DocMac]

21. I don't think testing is a "specialized niche position".

I guess my frustration is caused by the steady onslaught of outsourcing and visa placements. My silly rant was more about the IT industry as a whole, not directed at Microsoft.

[OhioChick]

22. Bill...is that you?

From Redmond, interesting.

[No Elephants]

25. LOL! Wouldn't it be hysterical if Bill did post or lurk here?

[Missy Vixen]

27. Yeah, I thought so, too

DH spent 14 months working on a high profile project at the Evil Empire. He's over 40. He was told repeatedly that they did not have "the headcount" to hire him permanently, but he was repeatedly recognized for excellence within his work group, and other work groups they interfaced with.

He left for a permanent position elsewhere. He's now been approached for the second time by the guy who runs the group to come back. Of course, there's still "no headcount" for a perm position, but hey, that's not a problem, is it? Can't he just get some private insurance?

:eyes:

[LibDemAlways]

3. Microsoft's buggy, virus prone software is the end-result of their

commitment to hiring the cheapest, least experienced labor possible. If they hired experienced, knowledgeable people and paid them what they're worth, the product would improve exponentially.

[JDPriestly]

6. +1

[SKKY]

13. +2

[DocMac]

23. Poor software gets out

because the testing effort isn't enforced. It would never get to production if QA was enforced properly.

This is why I posted above that "testing is not a niche". It is a big part of the SDLC. I'm sure they have automation tools, but I feel like the manual effort should be from entry level college grads. They deserve the "chance".

[LibDemAlways]

24. My husband is an experienced software engineer who is

committed to the highest standards of quality and believes software should be thoroughly tested.

Last year he was laid off when a division of his company closed. He had numerous interviews at which he stressed his dedication to quality and belief in testing. That actually scared potential employers off. All they seemed to be interested in was "quick and dirty." It's no wonder so much software is a mess.

[onehandle]

4. I have three friends well over 40 who work for Microsoft.

From what they tell me, Microsoft prays that they leave and make major hints that they might be happier 'elsewhere' every year during their review.

[PatrynXX]

8. sounds just like John Deere

too bad the EEOC is corrupt.

[cstanleytech]

5. Microsoft is right, there is a shortage.

They just didnt finish the whole sentence which would have gone something like "There is an extreme shortage of experienced IT personal that we can pay dirt to and work to death."

[on point]

7. My suggestion is let them hire foreign, but require them to be paid 3x normal salary

Require them to pay a normal 'going rate salary' and then pay 2x more into a training fund for american workers and college students.

I'll bet that will clean up the fake shortage real quick


THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF IT WORKERS!!

Only a shortage of people willing to be micro serfs

[NikRik]

26. No you have it backwards !

Any Americian company hiring non Americian workers whom are completly qualified, should be given a extra tax burdon. They should be require to pay a non Americian employment tax for not hireing Americian first. Now if they(the company) have exausted all avenues lookig for a qualified Americian employee and can prove it then OK ! I somehow think that wont happen unless they fix the test in favore of the cheaper paid employee. Iam a 54 year old man who has been out of work since the start of 2009. Its destroying my marriage of 17 years & my relationship with my two teenage children. We I was still single at 35 years old, all I wanted was a family my own kids and a lovig wife. The first 13-14 years or so where great. Then the dream breaker bush completely destroyed my ability to be a good provider for my family. Iam not highly educated just a hard worker! I cant imagine being a engineer with all that knowldege they have and not beig able to find a job.Losing out to a non Americian citizen.Uneless the other appliciant is way ahead of me on the learning curve, any other reason,pay etc should not be a consideration when it comes to the multi million $ corperations. The whole thing stinks.
IMHO NikRik

[Shining Jack]

9. Buy a Mac!

Just kidding, not a Mac fan or non-fan. :D

[Hissyspit]

11. Apple has submitted 175 Labor Condition Applications for H1B Visa in fiscal year 2010.

MICROSOFT VISA RANK according to myvisajobs.com: #1

APPLE VISA RANK according to myvisajobs.com: #108

Apple: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Apple-H1B11-40571.htm

Apple has submitted 175 Labor Condition Applications for H1B Visa in fiscal year 2010. But this does not mean Apple has really got 175 H1B Visa during this period. The H1B Visa application might have been denied or withdrawn. When an employee renews or transfers his H1B Visa or changes work location, he/she usually needs a new LCA for H1B Visa. Department of Labor(DOL) typically certifies more than 3 times the number of foreign work requests than the number of H-1B visas issued by USCIS.

Among the H1B Visa petitions submitted by Apple in fiscal year 2010, 164 were Certified, 4 were Denied, 4 were Withdrawn and 3 were Certified-Withdrawn. The hottest 2010 H1B Visa jobs in Apple were Software Engineer, Systems Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Hardware Engineer and Quality Assurance Engineer. Most of those H1B Visa jobs are located at Cupertino, CA, Elk Grove, CA, Reno, NV, Waltham, MA and Coral Gables, FL.

Microsoft: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Microsoft/356252.htm

H1B Visa 2010: 2505 (labor condition application)
H1B Visa Denied 2010: 24 (labor condition application)
Green Card 2010: 0
Green Card Denied 2010: 0

[KansDem]

12. A video were posted on DU during the last week or so

It showed how a consulting firm advises American corporations on how to avoid hiring Americans in favor of H-1B workers. From job announcement to interview, the whole process was directed at discouraging Americans from wanting the job, resulting in a "need" to hire an H1-B worker.

It was discouraging indeed.