China Tells US 'Good Old Days' of Borrowing Are Over

[kpete]

Source: Reuters

China Tells US 'Good Old Days' of Borrowing Are Over
By REUTERS
Published: August 6, 2011 at 10:48 AM ET

NEW YORK/SHANGHAI (Reuters) - China bluntly criticised the United States Saturday one day after the superpower's credit rating was downgraded, saying the "good old days" of borrowing were over.

Standard & Poor's cut the U.S. long-term credit rating from top-tier AAA by a notch to AA-plus Friday over concerns about the nation's budget deficits and climbing debt burden.

China -- the United States' biggest creditor -- said Washington only had itself to blame for its plight and called for a new stable global reserve currency.

"The U.S. government has to come to terms with the painful fact that the good old days when it could just borrow its way out of messes of its own making are finally gone," China's official Xinhua news agency said in a commentary.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/08/06/business/business-us-eurozone.html?_r=1&hp

[msongs]

1. incompetence in congress and the white house = USA is screwed lol nt

[Joe Bacon]

79. It's Game Over.

Now let's see how we pay the bills. And watch as the world will dump the dollar as the reserve currency.

[snappyturtle]

137. I agree with you. Do you think an emergency session of Congress

will be called? Should be imho.

One aspect I would add to your "Now let's see how we pay the bills" is now the government will have to deal with creditors just like so very many of us have had to do.

I also think that S&P is of bigger importance (hard to believe in light of their part in the mortgage fiasco) than some were espousing last night including Bernie Sanders. They as much as said if not directly said that we needed revenue....hint.... the unwillingness of the government to tax the rich has been noticed globally! Again imho.

[Joe Bacon]

199. Why? They won't do anything.

The Tea Party has effectively gelded the Congress. Congress won't do anything. The endgame for the dollar is now in play and it can't be stopped.

[Kurmudgeon]

80. Obama didn't create the debt crisis, the blame both sides excuse doesn't work here.

[Truth2Tell]

82. He didn't create the mess, but

he hasn't done what needs to be done to fix it - raise taxes on the rich, unwind the military empire, or reign-in the flow of capital out of the economy. He hasn't even advocated these things, much less fought for them. And he's the President - has been for a few years now. The blame now lies squarely on him.

[MissDeeds]

145. Agreed - It used to be "the buck stops here"

Now it's supposed to stop anywhere else. The "it's not his fault" meme is wearing thin. If he wasn't up to the challenge, he sure as hell shouldn't have run for the presidency. He knew he would be inheriting a complete, monumental disaster from Bush, yet he assured us (well, some of us) that he was going to put the country back on the right track. He knew the Republicans were a toxic stew, yet he still chose to run. His inept leadership is squarely on his shoulders. No more damned excuses. The buck still, ultimately, stops with the president.

[abq e streeter]

146. +1

You expressed it perfectly .Thank you.

[Knight Hawk]

147. as Socrates said "Know Thyself"

And as Dr.Phil says"what were you thinking".I have always sincerely believed Obama was running for VP and/or having a dry run in 2008 for a later real run.In his heart of hearts I believe he knew he was not ready to be president on at LEAST one level.

[Divernan]

150. He was blinded by his ambitions and lacked the patience

to wait the 1 or 2 terms until 2012 or 2016 for the knowledge and experience of a few complete terms in the Senate. Very many saw him as a potential presidential candidate, but not so early in his political career. He delivered his famous DNC Convention speech in August, 2004. He was asked about his presidential ambitions while running for the Senate seat. As quoted below, he said "I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years."
http://theobamafile.com/ObamaSenate.htm

Responding to questions about his intent to serve out the six year senate term, Obama says, in this video, (since removed), that he will not run for the presidency in four years. (Notice: The video has disappeared. Using WayBackMachine, I found two links -- both played empty videos -- a lot of stuff is being scrubbed from the web.)

Here is what he said in the video: "I think I've been very clear. Ah-ah-mumble-mumble, there's a presidential election in four years. I'm not running for president in four years."

Here is a backup story -- during a meeting with reporters at his Illinois campaign headquarters after his election to the U.S. Senate, he ridiculed as "a silly question" whether he would run for president or vice president before his term ends in 2011. "I’ve never worked in Washington," he said. "I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I’m the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois."

In November, 2004, Obama is elected to the United States Senate. In his farewell speech to his colleagues in Springfield, on November 8, 2004, was less eloquent than his DNC speech, but no less heartfelt. Afterward, he faced the Springfield press corps for the last time. Someone asked why he had already ruled out running on a national ticket with Hillary Rodham Clinton in 2008. His answer was crisp and immediate. "You know," Obama replied, "I am a believer in knowing what you’re doing when you apply for a job. And I think that if I were to seriously consider running on a national ticket I would essentially have to start now, before having served a day in the Senate. Now, there are some people who might be comfortable doing that, but I’m not one of those people."

[sendero]

210. Believe me..

.. this is exactly the attitude the voters will have next year. It IS the economy,stupid, and Americans are no better off than they were when Obama took office and it's his freaking fault.

[Kurmudgeon]

179. What a crock, He's fighting a House where the numbers are against him.

Blame the American voter if you're not happy with what Boehner and the gang on doing.

[hughee99]

190. The numbers in the House weren't always against him.

I seem to recall him having 2 years with the Democrats controlling both houses.

[rhett o rick]

203. He's fighting? You could have fooled me. He seems to be compromising. nm

[Fearless]

83. He didn't created it but he has furthered it by his policymaking.

Extending the tax cuts to the wealthy. Taking tax increases to the wealthy. The "unemployment insurance bargain". The debt capitulation. And much more.

[StarsInHerHair]

106. & not prosecuting those wealthiest who broke our laws

[Fearless]

114. Absolutely!

[defendandprotect]

104. Unfortunately, Obama was there ... and he was putting Social Security/Medicare "on the table" ..!!!

The mask is off -- it's over --

[TomCADem]

161. So, You Support Medicare/Social Security Cuts To Keep China Happy?

If everyone is blaming President Obama for China getting pissed about debt, does this mean you support even steeper cuts?

[defendandprotect]

171. Think you've responded to the wrong post --

However, if not --

OBAMA HAS ALREADY DEEPLY CUT AND DESTROYED SOCIAL SECURITY --

2012 WILL BE THIRD YEAR OF NO COLA'S -- AND SETTING UP SUPER CONGRESS WILL

FINISH NEW DEAL SAFETY NETS --

That will destroy not only Obama but the Dem Party as well -- rightly so!


Obama has earned the blame for his three years of of game-playing with the GOP --

Obama has earned the blame for the recent game-playing with the GOP on the debt ceiling --

Obama has earned the blame for destroying the economy in any number of ways --

-- recognizing how serious the meltdown was on top of our already horrid unemployment

situation -- and failing to respond sufficient -- i.e., suggesting a stimulus which was

only 20% of what was required according to economist advisers -- and then settling forless!

-- recognizing last August that this was a depression and not pushing the FED for further

stimulus --

--- in fact, recognizing all of that and not pushing Congress to take back their responsibility

to direct the economy themselves rather than putting that trust into the hands of a private

bank !! We need to have elected officials -- not a private bank -- decide on economic issues --

unemployment, stimulus, whatever -- safety nets -- not a Super Congress and not the FED!


What I support is -- a 50% cut in the military - having nothing to do with China -- but having

to do with ending this MIC fiasco/fake. And that would also include all of our intelligence

services -- ending the "national security state."

I'd support bringing every one of our troops home from wherever they are around the world!

And I'd support ending this imperialism that is in full swing, also under Obama's term!!

I'd support cutting Congress's salaries by 25% -- and their benfits -- all of them until

they give us universal health care -- MEDICARE FOR ALL.


And if you're still confused ....

I'd have supported a RECALL on Obama immediately after he took Koch Bros. DLC Rahm

Emmanuel into the White House -- that is before he even picked the gang of thieves he selected

as his financial advisers!



Again -- the mask is off -- Obama is over --

[Creideiki]

133. Obama ignored the People's Budget which took care of the long term debt crisis

It does it without screwing over working people, too.

Odd. Why would a Democratic President refuse to talk to the people from his largest caucus?

[rhett o rick]

186. He isnt fighting hard enough. We must draw the line and fight or our democracy will continue to slip

away. It's time for Obama to go before the American people and tell them the facts and let the chips fall where they may. This pat-a-cake he is playing wont do.

[Joe Bacon]

200. He ISN'T fighting. He's NOT lifting a finger to help us!

Obama put cuts to Social Security and Medicare on the Table. He has set a DANGEROUS precedent. When he did that, it was the last straw for me!!!!!

[rhett o rick]

202. So what can we do? nm

[defendandprotect]

102. +1 -- Elites aren't going to go for a "buy American" campaign ....

they'll still want ever last nickle they can harvest from slave labor

around the world -- !!

[seeker4ever]

143. Kochs and the Corporacrats WANT America to look like China!

Corporate fascism, draconian social darwinism, massive wealth gap, aristocratic rule. You know, everything that the TEA party is paid by corporate fascists to defend and that some "nameless" democrats pretend to fight.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Being criticized by a communist country for excesses in capitalism

with the former's bottom line higher than ours is the height of irony.

[robinlynne]

21. China is as capitalist as we are, just in a different phase. "Communist" CHina was a long time ago.

[No Elephants]

23. How is it ironic? Has China overspent? Overborrowed?

How many wars is China waging right now?

For what parts is it overpaying by over 500%

Obviously, it may have over-lent.

[humbled_opinion]

40. LOL your kidding right?

Enslavement of your own people out weighs any of the positives you listed.

[Butch350]

94. Come on how are we any better than China...

Ok maybe our air is a little better to breath, (for now) but we are
just as much enslaved as the people in china - just in another way.

Our politicians and corporate thugs are bending us a over barrel, (no kiss, no towel), with taxes and no jobs.

Sounds like a type of slavery to me - don't even talk about minimum wage.

Yep, china sounds like to place to be economy wise. (yeah SA, maybe I will move there).

Have a nice weekend dudes and dudetts.Sp

[Mojorabbit]

78. They have a housing bubble ready to pop from what I read. nt

[MADem]

182. Yes, they do--ready to pop like a big nasty zit!

http://www.businessinsider.com/proof-of-a-big-chinese-housing-bubble-as-far-back-as-2008-2011-7

[jzodda]

46. China is more capitalist than we are

They are in the robber baron stage of capitalism, like we were in the 1890s...

[nxylas]

61. And will be again, if the Kochs et all have their way

And they will.

[Truth2Tell]

84. "the robber baron stage" has always been the permanent state of American capitalism. nt

[readmoreoften]

47. China is not communist. They're capitalist. The premier of the CP is a billionaire.

Working for the state gives corporate perks just like here. The working class is clearly not in control of China.

[Xithras]

63. China is a single-party Authoritarian Capitalist state with socialist public welfare policies.

It hasn't really been communist since the 1980's. Nowadays they have their own hybrid system that plucks features from various other political and economic systems. It's uniquely Chinese.

[seeker4ever]

144. It's a Corporacratic dream. It will be America is a few years.

[blank space]

155. fascist

pure and simple

[hifiguy]

215. True enough, but it cannot be denied that the Chinese middle class

has been growing at an astonishing rate for the pastr 25 years while our middle class has been getting ground into mulch at an ever accelerating rate.

[David__77]

168. China's state council has a premier, not the CPC. And he's not a billionaire.

Nor is the Chinese president and CPC general secretary a billionaire. No one in the CPC central committee politburo is a billionaire, and I do not believe anyone in the entire central committee is a millionaire, let alone a billionaire. Very rich people are represented in the National People's Congress and other bodies, however. Obama is much more wealthy than Chinese leaders.

[lunasun]

177. Yes no pretense there on what is really going on unlike here . They know they are under control of a

capitalist communist state and didnt even seem that concerned about not being able vote for who is "in charge" when I visited.

Doesnt surprise me - we all knew our bad US$$ rap was gonna come

[SleeplessinSoCal]

93. Putin isn't holding back either...

'They are living beyond their means and shifting a part of the weight of their problems to the world economy,' Putin said.

'They are living like parasites off the global economy and their monopoly of the dollar,'

[FreakinDJ]

3. Why not - Predatory Trade practices / sought to destabilize US currency

nothing out of China surprises me

The Tax Breaks America offers for outsourcing jobs to China does surprise me

[lovuian]

5. China is the culprit here as well as the Banksters

working hand in hand in destroying our country

they underestimate the American people

I say good riddance to China

[FreakinDJ]

8. No Love lost there

China told the Asian Economic Summit countries to divest the dollar in 2008

[cstanleytech]

15. This will sting like hell but hey, sometimes ripping

the bandage off is better then slowly pulling it off.

Its not just chinas fault nor the bankers, the fact is its everyones from you and your neighbor to your congressman and senator to the presidents of the US both current and all past ones thats caused these problems and ya I include myself in this when I say everyone and if we want to really fix it we need to pull our heads out of ass and get to it and do what it takes to fix the problems we are having.

So if that means higher taxes then they need to be passed, if it means some programs need some trimming to make them run smoother and more efficiently then trim them.

[plumbob]

25. Not my fault. I have never voted for any of the current incumbents, state

or national. I have taught in my economics classes for 15 years the following:

1) High (90%+) marginal taxes are the best for the economy.
a) If business and people are too lazy to take advantage of tax breaks, the extra money helps us with programs we like.
b) If business and people are ambitious, they will invest in real things, like new business locations, payroll increases, new
housing, and all the other things we give tax breaks for, pumping up the real economy with jobs and income.

2) High (100%) estate taxes over some deductible, say $2 million.
a) Keeps the GINI at a reasonable level, which promotes innovation and rewards merit, rather than DNA.
b) Without it, the winners are pre-picked and lazy, dumb, 3rd+ generation trust funders control the world (you see how that's
working out now).

3) We must remove the personal liability shield for corporation officers and criminalize their individual behavior as well as the
company behavior, and mandatory incarceration without the possibility for parole must follow for corporate malefactors. The
corporation itself must be eligible for the death penalty.

These modest reforms, along with eliminating a standing military, would balance the budget, make life more pleasant, and provide citizens with jobs and income.

Been preaching this since 1995 6 classes a day.

[cstanleytech]

29. It applies to those in the past in elected office to not just incumbents

so if you every voted then ya it applies to you to, your claim does make me wonder if you decide to sit out the last presidential election and not vote?

[plumbob]

33. I have never sat out any election since I became eligible to vote in 1970.

The last winner I voted for was in 1996 when a former classmate of mine was elected mayor of this city.

I did not vote for a "major party candidate" in the last presidential election, fwiw. You?

[cstanleytech]

87. Yes, I voted in the last election and have ever since I turned 18 as I decided

that it was my duty to vote in an election to vote for whoever would imo do the best job in office as not to vote would be doing a greater disservice.

[caseymoz]

65. Stupid and ridiculous.

Trying to guide this nation by your vote every two years is like playing pool with a pair of chopsticks. The wealthy have exploited the flaws written in the Constitution. Middle class and below have to work every day, and therefore obey their employers or clients. So, one learns to obey superiors as a survival reflex. Where are they going to find time or get the will to effect the direction of the government?

Meanwhile, the wealthy have set up a propaganda machine that misinforms and mis-educates. They've destroyed public and higher education.

So, how is this my fault? How is this the fault of anybody outside government, government contracting, lobbying, the wealthy class or the media? Certain sectors have specific blame, but not people who are actually losing their livelihoods and what little power they have.

[cstanleytech]

90. I agree about the every 2 years having to vote causing problems

but as to why imo its everyones fault, thats complicated but I'll attempt to explain.
IMO its all our fault because in the end we all in one way or another decide the course of the nation and our current problem with the debt isnt solely the fault of any one party or person, some of us have less of a voice true but that doesnt mean we have no voice at all so we need to pull together and stop the petty bickering because we cannot afford it any longer.

[caseymoz]

152. I don't decide the course of the nation.

Now, maybe with extreme luck I'll be put in that position, or one of us will be put in that position, but so far in my life there has not been any time I decided the course of this nation. My vote is just a flea among ants. The most you could say is, I have a minute chance of guiding this nation.

No, we've always delegated and deferred to leaders to guide the nation. Unfortunately, the only leadership available to us is inclined to do the same corrupt things, whether they say they will, and appeal to Republicans, or deny they will, and appeal to Democrats, they're drawn from the same deck.

So, I call it like this: it's the leader's fault. I hardly have time to keep an eye on them now, I definitely couldn't find time to do it when I was working, and would have feared my employer's wrath.

So the questions are, where and how do we get another deck to draw them from, and how do we keep it from getting stacked?

[cstanleytech]

167. Who elects the leaders?

We do. So we share in making the mess its in atleast a little.

[caseymoz]

188. Who chooses the leaders to elect?

That's done by money and propaganda.

The object is not to "share the mess," the object is to start the cleanup. Why is one of your goals to "share making the mess"? First, it isn't true reflection of reality, and second, instead of making things better, it makes them marginally worse. If I can accidentally cause this due to actions that were practical and straightforward, then there's no way I'm mentally equipped to do anything about it. No way. And many people would see it that way.

Moreover, any fair judgment would put the blame on people who have criminal intent.

No, I didn't have a hand in any of this. All that happened here is that the bad guys won, because they kept playing when the rest of the citizenry couldn't.

For example, did the citizens of Chicago have any say with Al Capone winning control of the city? No. Were they able to do anything to get rid of him? No. If they had picketed his operations, do you think he would have stopped? There's little difference here.

Short of the morally repugnant action of class warfare and bloodshed, which has its own awful consequences, there wasn't much citizens could have done to avoid this. The wealthy were going to do what they were going to do. They've learned to guide votes according to scientifically demonstrated techniques. They weren't asking for our votes, they were guiding them.

No, I won't "share the mess." I'll work on the cleanup, but I had no hand in doing this.

[cstanleytech]

193. Trying to use money excuse isnt valid imo because we still cast votes.

Sure money can help influence an election as can propaganda but as we saw with Carly Fiorina in her attempt to win it doesnt insure a victory as the people decided with their votes that she wasnt what their state needed just like in the presidential election the majority of us decided that we didnt need or want McCain/Palin in office as president and vice president.

[caseymoz]

204. All Carly Fiorina showed was that some products aren't salable.

No matter how much advertising is behind them. Some shit doesn't smell better no matter how perfume you pour on it. That was already well-known, BTW. Fiorina wasn't chosen. She went in there herself, and possibly despite the best advice.

The Koch brothers and Ruppert Murdoch are astute enough not to run themselves. No, they pay for candidates who are salable.

Obama actually outdrew McCain in donations, including corporate donations.

Then they could always just break into the voting machines and steal elections. And they apparently did try. They estimate that Obama got 8 million votes that either weren't counted or were flipped to McCain.

Furthermore, what did we gain by making their choice? The will of the people put Obama in office, and he turned out to be just another corporatist. Not the disaster Palin would have been, and a marginal improvement over Bush.

So, what happens when your hopeful and the candidate merely lies to you? I'm responsible for that?

[cstanleytech]

205. You are still responsible for your vote even if a

candidate lies or changes their minds about a position later on once in office though i do find it charming that you believe you shouldnt be.

[caseymoz]

207. The country hasn't followed my vote since I've been of age.

How am I responsible for that? Dean was my choice in the Primaries, but guess what? He wasn't part of the Deck of Leadership. Obama was. And I still think he's marginally better than McCain and Miss Grizzly, though I'm probably going to be proven wrong on that. So, in that case, do you vote to put somebody in office or to keep somebody out of office.

I've been wanting to ex-patriate to Canada for almost six years, and I'm responsible because Canada doesn't doesn't want me.

As for your statement that you're responsible even when you've been deceived: by that reasoning, Cons should never be prosecuted because their marks should know better.

You're right, I'm totally responsible for this mess because I'm the losing side. Just like you. Let's be brothers in shared blame so despise we each other more than we despise ourselves, and definitely more than we despise the ones who are doing harm with criminal intent.

Self-blame is lazy, mentally in practice. And it's a de-motivator.

[cstanleytech]

209. your still focusing on one issue

which is those we elect and its bigger than that and its one that everyone contributed to unless your a hermit living in the sticks who havent come out of the deep woods in 25+ years.

[caseymoz]

211. Sorry, I reject that.

100 percent totally. Nothing you've said has changed my mind, and given the sample, I believe nothing you say will change my mind about it. And I don't care what you think of me about it. If you're playing with a stacked deck, you will lose, no matter how skillfully you play. If a few people have the power to stack the deck, the rest of us will lose no matter how good our choices. Period.

And don't tell someone who's as far out of power as a human being could get without being dead that his caused this mess. You're just being insulting now.

[caseymoz]

212. Errata and adendum

The second to last sentence should have read, "And don't tell someone who's as far out of power as a human being could get without being dead that his actions caused this mess.

I'll add also, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in original sin. When somethings wrong that I couldn't have possibly done, I don't look for reasons why I'm guilty anyway. Nobody should.

[shireen]

154. "IMO its all our fault"

I think saying
"collectively our fault" may be a better description.

[cstanleytech]

166. Point to you, yes "collectively our fault".

[saras]

81. Tenure really serves a legitimate purpose, doesn't it?

No wonder the anti-education brigade hates it so much.

What do you do with the students that go into shock when you teach this?

[plumbob]

125. That's 90% of them, because this is west Texas, very anti-union, pro-boss

area. My grandfather came here in the 30s to organize the oilfield into the IWW and ended up bedridden 4 years after his beating by company goons.


So: we start with history, show the tax rate the year I was born (92%), examine standards of living and so on.

Chip away all the time with observations like: the rich get more government services, so they should pay more. Example: which house fire consumes more resources: mobile home 1500 square feet on west side, which burns completely in 30 minutes, leaving the fire crew to douse hot spots and go home, or a 14-bedroom three story home 9,000 square feet on the east side?

Where does food stamp money end up? Poor get fed and food is in the sewer within 24 hours and benefit is over. Money goes to the grocery store, to the jobber, to the wholesaler, to the processor, ends up at the farmer, the large corporate farmer who winds up buying more land, equipment and other assets with the same money and getting richer.

We also play income distribution Monopoly, where five players start with the percentage of wealth we actually have, along with the property. We play until there's only 1 player left, then everybody switches and plays a new position: the old 1 becomes 5, 2 goes to 1 and so on, until we have played five rounds in all to account for differences in skill level. The #1 player wins every time (actually a #2 player has won twice in 15 years, but no other deviation). This means good player, bad player, dumb player, smart player, your outcome was determined by your inherited starting position.

They hate that, since hard work and education are supposed to be factors of success.

Here's the starting lineup and a little hard information for them on the score sheet. By the end of week 18, most of them seem to get it.
(Sorry that the formatting gets lost in the table)

PLAYER 1 NAME/ID

PLAYER 1 NAME/ID PLAYER 2 NAME/ID PLAYER 3 NAME/ID PLAYER 4 NAME/ID PLAYER 5 NAME/ID
Start $3750 Money Start $1725 Money Start $1050 Money Start $675 Money Start $300 Money
Start $2850 Prop. Start $1300 Prop. Start $800 Property Start $500 Property Start $240 Property
Total Start $6600 Total Start $3025 Total Start $1850 Total Start $1175 Total Start $540
Properties to start with:
Boardwalk $400
Park Place $350
Short Line $200
Pennsylvania $320
North Carolina $300
Pacific $300
Marvin Gardens $280
Ventnor $260
Indiana $220
Kentucky $220

Player 2 Properties to start with:
Atlantic $260
Illinois $240
Tennessee $180
St James $180
Virginia $160
States $140
St Charles $140


Player 3 Properties to start with:
Oriental $100
Electric Co. $150
Pennsylvania RR $200
B&O RR $200
Water Works $150

Player 4 Properties to start with:
Reading RR $200
Vermont Ave $100
New York $200

Player 5 Properties to start with:
Connecticut $120
Baltic $60
Mediterranean $60


Date:________________________ Period:___________ Person filling out:_____________________________

Income Inequality in the U.S. By Kimberly Amadeo, About.com

One-quarter of American workers make less than $10 per hour, which creates an income below the poverty line. These are the people who wait on you every day: cashiers, fast food workers and nurse's aides. Or maybe they are you. Meanwhile, the top 1% of workers earned more in income than the bottom 40% of workers. This was in 2005, when the economy was still booming. Now that the economy isn't doing so well, the bottom 40% is really feeling it.
Everything has been blamed from cheap labor in China, unfair exchange rates and Wal-Mart to outsourcing, greedy corporate executives and illegal immigrants.
Income Inequality Background
Despite an economic recovery, the number of Americans in poverty increased 15% between 2000-2006. By 2006, nearly 33 million workers earned less than $10 per hour, which creates an annual income of less than $20,614. This is below the poverty level for a family of four. Most low-wage workers receive no health insurance, sick days or pension plans from their employers, which means they can't get sick and have no hope of retiring.
During this same time period, average wages remained flat despite an increase of worker productivity of 15%, while corporate profits increased 13% per year.
Between 1979 and 2005, household income (after taxes):
1. Tripled for the richest 1% of households.
2. Rose 80% for the top fifth.
3. Rose 21% for the middle fifth.
4. Rose 6% for the bottom fifth.
(Source: The Big Squeeze, Steven Greenhouse, pp.6-9)

[defendandprotect]

108. At the least .... !! Thanks !

[caseymoz]

60. Nope. I'm not guilty of anything.

Nothing. Zilch.

I'll do what I can to fix it, but the simple fact is, I didn't do any of it.

No, this country screwed itself up without asking me. It's not like I'm guilty of omission either. I've been on the losing side too often, and even when I've been on the "winning" side, as with Obama, he didn't follow the policies I hoped he would follow. The candidate marketed was not the candidate sold.

It solves nothing to make yourself sound as guilty as the Scumbaggers, who will admit to this credit debacle and will say they were right all along.

I'm on SSDI now, where trimming means things like hunger or eviction. I'm trimmed to the bone. Trimming medicare (whose premiums already come out of my check) would mean no medical care. I'm hardly living high off the hog before the "trimming" either. So, "entitlements" mean you're entitled to live on the edge. Never mind raising a family, if you're sensible. It's a level of existence that keeps you sterile.

I don't demand any more. So, trim it from people who have money, who won't starve, get evicted, or go without medical care when they do. I'm already shouldering my burden to keep this country solvent, and I'm not in any way guilty if it isn't.

[cstanleytech]

100. See thats part of the problem right there people in general

dont realize its not always about what you earn but also what you buy.
What do I mean? I mean almost all of us with very few exceptions buy clothing and items made overseas we dont tend to buy american made products we also often get the support for more and more products and services from overseas and we dont hold the companies accoutable and thus the companies think its ok transfer more jobs overseas and thats not to mention our habit as nation of borrowing money (and credit cards count as borrowing money btw)
My point here is we are all (and yes I include myself) at fault for our nations current problems to one degree or another and we need to pull it together and stop playing the "lets blame the other person/political party/ corporation" and solve this because while that game is fun the fact is if one of us goes down most of us will end up sinking along with them and i just dont look forward to that kind of trip to the bottom.

[caseymoz]

151. I don't even buy that this has anything to do with it.

You really think that in the long run companies would have let us buy American? When the labor costs were so much cheaper? No. That's part of the reason why American made products could not be found at stores.

No one does real retail anymore. Here is how it's done now. The companies selling products pay stores for shelf-space, and pay for placement. The stores might then have some piece of the sales, but the point is, if a clothing company puts enough money into keeping their stuff on the shelves ultimately the public is going to have to buy or do without.

With "Made in America" costs being so much higher, there's no way such a company can compete in the bids for shelf space and placement.

It's a matter of survival that anything I buy be at economical prices. So, sorry. No. I'm not guilty of that in the least either.

Can't you just get people to take action without telling them that just living their lives makes them guilty?

[The Green Manalishi]

22. No more at fault than a drug dealer for supplying what the "victim" wants.

Why can't *both* sides see that we need to have a dialog, not a screaming match. We are borrowing too much, spending unwisely and not getting enough for what we are paying.

For example, what we spend on healthcare; if you combine public and private spending, we are already spending enough to provide everyone with healthcare. There is no one with any credibility, from left or the right on this current budget situation. We've got the worst of both capitalist and socialist approaches with the benefits of neither (unless you are very rich)

The pubbies have a point- government has to do a *LOT* more with a LOT less; we've had to do that in private industry for years: budget cut 20% *and* do more with higher quality faster; the Post Office, Army and every other organization paid for by taxpayer's dollars needs to be held to the same criteria- every year expect a smaller budget and more stringent objectives. It can be done. Tactics such as claiming a reduction in the rate of growth is a cut undermines the credibility of a lot of our spokesmen, too.

[mainer]

34. And when China calls in its loans?

We may want to say good riddance to people we owe money to, but you can't exactly say good riddance to the bank holding your home mortgage, can you?

[JHB]

76. China bought Treasury Bonds, the same as anyone else...

...including the Social Security trust fund and scores of other US pension funds. They can't "call in" those bonds. they'll get paid on schedule like everyone else.

And if they can't be paid, it's due to bigger problems than China, unless you're talking about "free trade" with them.

[coalition_unwilling]

85. "Calls in its loans"??? Care to elaborate? Are you speaking

figuratively? U.S. Treasury notes and bonds are almost entirely not 'callable'. All you can do is hold to maturity at which point they are redeemed for the bond's face value or sell the bond at the prevailing market rate in advance of maturity.

China can dump its holdings, that's for sure, but then China will have to find something else to do with the cash. Don't think the Eurozone offers any more safety than U.S. does right now.

[cstanleytech]

123. It offers even less safety than the U.S. imo

After all they have Greece, Ireland and Portugal and none of those have the potential to largely dig themselves out on their own where as the U.S. does.

[jeff47]

110. Neither China, nor your bank, can "call in the loan"

Because there's no mechanism for them to do so. If your bank tried, they're in breach of contract.

[mainer]

140. What I should have said was: "dumped its US debt"

http://www.financialpost.com/news/features/What+happens+China+dumps+debt/4133420/story.html

Either way, you can't just say "screw China". Just like you can't say "screw you" to any of your creditors.

I'm amazed that DUers place all the blame on China, and refuse to accept the fact that China didn't force us to borrow money from them.

[liberation]

73. China is conducting the same monetary policies on us, as we did on Asia in the 90s

which led to the collapse of Korea, Thailand, etc. If anything, it is the Americans who underestimate the Chinese people. Just because most Americans have the historical memory of a fruit fly, it does not mean that is the case for the rest of the world.


What you're seeing now is the "how you like them apples" phase, except that the Chinese are Will Hunting, and we're just the entitled douche who just got owned.


The is a strange quality about American exceptionalism, in which we assume we're always the good guys and the victim, even in cases when we are neither.

[dotymed]

127. IMO, They have not underestimated us yet.

Yes, the Banksters, Politicians, Chinese, Elites, etc.., have been purposely destroying America, especially in the last decade. The very politicians who were in charge of raising (or not) the "debt ceiling," were placing bets (Eric Cantor)

that the American dollar would be devalued. Guess what? Their (insider trading) "bets" have paid off. Our credit rating has been been down-graded, which devalues our dollar. Of course, this will result in higher interest on any

borrowing. Our credit score is shit. It became that way because"our elected officials" deliberately threatened to not pay our bills. A few hours before our utilities were shut off, they said "okay, since the President agreed to 98% of

our demands, we'll pay the light bill."

I am certain that if William Holder is alive and occasionally awake, he will prosecute the members of Congress (who were responsible to maintain our credit score), for treason. Intentionally harming our country's financial standing, in

order to realize a profit, can be prosecuted as treason. Especially when it is committed by a sitting Congress-member.

The long term consequences are much worse. The possibility that the world will retain as it's reserve currency, a form of money that does not even have a "triple A rating" is ridiculous.

This will greatly increase the price of every commodity we purchase (few are American produced). The main reason that gasoline is relatively cheap in America as opposed to Europe, is because the American Dollar is the worlds reserve currency.

The ramifications of the "Kabuki Debt Ceiling" show will go far in the further destruction of America. The wealthy will get wealthier, the average American will suffer more and America's standing will steadily decline.

Damn, and of course no-one (except maybe Obama) will be held accountable.

We are quickly becoming the USSR of the 21st century. If our "party" does not Primary and find a new FDR, we are through.

[Sherman A1]

138. Precisely

[loudsue]

11. If China would let their currency reflect their actual value, this wouldn't be happening at all.

It's CHINA'S monetary policy that is to blame, and the US congress KNOWS it. It's the invisible hand of the actual rulers of this world that are in play here, and they are a powerful, and wealthy bunch, beyond the imagination of 90% of the people on the planet. The US government is obviously doing the bidding of those who rule, just as every other government in the world is doing.

It would be really nice if we could believe that the fascade we see of world governments was true. But there are too many things that continually pull back the veil / curtain, and show what is behind it all.

[FreakinDJ]

12. Not to mention US refusal to close Tax Loopholes that outsource American Jobs

Nope - I'm not going to shut up about it no matter how much DUers refuse to acknowledge it's existence

[George1984]

16. How is any of this China's fault?

Living outside our means by borrowing, and when that gets us in trouble, borrow more??? How about closing tax loopholes, trimming the Pentagon by 70%, which would have the troops and equipment in the homeland protecting the borders from within, being available for the citizens when crisis occurs at home? Working on roads, bridges, transportation alternatives, energy alternatives. These military companies could change where there R&D goes, to the value of the country. This is what needs to be done. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the debt could be repaid over the next 20 years or less, while protecting medicare and SS.

No the US is in trouble, but have no one to blame but itself. The worst part is it can be easily fixed, has the ways and means to do so, but won't. When the people stand up against that 1% wealth machine, it will change for the better.

[BlueJazz]

97. Yep, you nailed it George.

..also...Welcome to DU. :)

[jeff47]

119. Because what you propose isn't legal, for one thing.

The US Military can not legally "protect the borders" except in very narrow circumstances. Like an invading army is trying to cross that border. They couldn't patrol the border on a regular basis. That's why those jobs are assigned to the national guard and law enforcement agencies. And it's why the military is very sparingly used during disasters despite all the hardware that could help - it's not legal.

Second, the only long-term budget problem we have is the growth of health care spending. Any "solution" that doesn't reduce that isn't a solution.

[George1984]

170. Pardon the language used

I meant protect the borders as in have the military hardware and troops in the US. Not in all these foreign lands, starting fights, or claiming we can fix a problem between to ethnic cultures who have never gotten along. They say we need the protection from people who would do harm to us, except if we brought our toys home, we would be more respected and actually liked on the world stage.

As for healthcare, it needs to go back into the hands of the government,federal, and not state. I hate to say it. But the costs are rising due to the insurance companies, their over head, and their spending on high priced figure heads, and as well as political contributions. They spend more money on fighting claims and having people deny a person for some loop hole in their policy. It is crazy. It works in England, France, Australia and Canada. Those countries all spend less per capita on health care and everyone has it. Seems ok to me. While none of those systems are perfect, are there not people who could cherry pick the good parts from each and implement it?

Fix healthcare, bring back the jobs, use the creative minds for good, and cut the defense spending. Alright I'm done, where's lunch?? :)

[George1984]

175. Not legal to help?

Going back at this, how is it not legal for the military to protect the borders, sail the east and west coast, watch for anything fishy? What about the lady who had a couple of F-16's help her land in Chicago? Is that not the military? Is that not protecting the president? How about during floods? Say those 50 or 60 thousand troops were actually here, could they not go fill sand bags, help distribute food, and build temporary housing? Sounds odd.

And besides, it isn't legal to invade other countries with false data, but that never stopped anyone ;)

[jeff47]

178. You are conflating the national guard and the regular military.

The national guard are state entities. They can perform law enforcement and disaster relief duties.

The regular military is a federal entity. It can not.

Air patrols are conducted by the national guard.
Sea patrols are conducted by the Coast Guard, which is not part of the military. They're under Homeland Security.
The people protecting the president are Secret Service, a title 7 (law enforcement) entity.
Floods - national guard again.

[CJCRANE]

184. "...nearly 28% of total US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan

at the end of 2007 consisted of mobilized personnel of the National Guard and other Reserve components".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States#Developments_after_September_11.2C_2001

[jeff47]

191. Yes, the feds can borrow the national guard from the states

Your point is?

[George1984]

192. Not sure if that was directed at me..

But I will roll with it. When they say the Pentagon is 56% or so of the budget, being the military, that does not include the National guard, the Coast Guard etc.?? Along with all the buildings they maintain, the equipment, and the personnel?

I was stating that if the 50,000 or 60,000 troops / personnel parked over seas were home, they still need to train, they still need to prepare,but it is cheaper at home than abroad. Wasn't Halliburton billing the govt $500 per day for food per soldier in Iraq?? Doesn't cost that much here. And then when a tornado, hurricane, major tragedy occurs, they are there to be used. So I will say my point is, the budget can be drastically cut, without actually cutting anything, by bringing the troops and equipment home.

Sorry being Canadian, I misunderstood where the budget was. Our military does whatever is required, when rivers flood, storms wipe out cities etc. Thought it was the same there. My bad

[jeff47]

201. No, it wasn't. But some answers

"But I will roll with it. When they say the Pentagon is 56% or so of the budget, being the military, that does not include the National guard, the Coast Guard etc.?? Along with all the buildings they maintain, the equipment, and the personnel?"

Nope. The national guard is paid for by the states. Coast guard comes from Homeland Security's budget. There's a minor complication though: when the guard is federalized, the federal government pays the guardsmen. So the guard soldiers that are in Iraq and Afghanistan are getting paid by the federal government and using federal equipment while they are there. They revert to state funding when they get home.

"I was stating that if the 50,000 or 60,000 troops / personnel parked over seas were home, they still need to train, they still need to prepare,but it is cheaper at home than abroad."

It's cheapest wherever we already have infrastructure. So if the soldiers leave Afghanistan and move to our mega-bases in Germany, S. Korea, etc, it's approximately the same (there's some stipends for being overseas, but the difference is not large).

And, more to the point, we're already working on that. We're drawing down troops already.

"And then when a tornado, hurricane, major tragedy occurs, they are there to be used."

And that's where my point comes in. The federal military can not be used to respond to a tornado, hurricane or major tragedy. It's against the law. The guard can while under state control, but not the Pentagon.

"Sorry being Canadian, I misunderstood where the budget was. Our military does whatever is required, when rivers flood, storms wipe out cities etc. Thought it was the same there"

Our founders feared a large standing federal army would be used to impose martial law and other bad things(tm). So there are severe restrictions on what the federal military can do within the US. State militias (which became the national guard) were not restricted at the federal level - it was assumed the states would do whatever they felt appropriate, and if one state became a problem, the other states could use their militias to 'solve' the problem. Which is what happened in our civil war. At the time, there were no federal troops. The US army during the civil war was made up of the state militias.

It doesn't mean the law is always followed. President Eisenhower used federal troops to enforce federal rulings during the civil rights movement. Essentially the 101st Airborne invaded Arkansas. He got away with it because the only entity that had the power to stop him (Congress) declined to do so.

[liberation]

96. Of course

whatever the problem is, for sure it is other people's fault.

[David__77]

169. Actually, all currencies should give up the float.

There was tremendous world economic growth both under the Bretton Woods regime as well as other fixed exchange currency regimes. We need more macroeconomic control, not less. China is much closer to the right monetary path than is the US.

[MrTriumph]

4. How about we create jobs in the US by not buying from the Cheating Chinese?

Note: Contrary to the Obama administration, it is widely understood the Chinese cheat by keeping their currecy undervalued.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Just closing the tax loopholes would work for me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x89186

[MinneapolisMatt]

6. Fine by me.

Let's pull our fucking American jobs outta there.

[chalky]

7. Fine. They can return the jobs that they "borrowed" from us.

n/t

[treestar]

10. Well then we just won't buy their stuff

And build factories here!

Pretty stupid for a country which would have no economy without us and other advanced economies to buy their cheap stuff!

[high density]

13. So let's stop buying from China

And let's build stuff again here. It solves all of our problems, but no company wants to be the first to take this step because it does not maximize the profits for next quarter.

[iamthebandfanman]

14. republicans have made this country look weak!

they should be ashamed!

i think its time we brought up how unpatriotic they are.

[Creideiki]

134. Not just Republicans. Conservatives.

There are conservatives in both parties.

And so we are screwn.

[n2doc]

17. I know how to raise some money

How about withdrawing from whatever trade agreements we have with China, and slapping a 100% tariff on all chinese made goods? Remember that twit last week who said he couldn't 'make money ' selling hats sold in the us so he bought Chinese ones? Wonder what he would do if said chinese hats suddenly cost more that US made hats? If he couldn't sell them then perhaps someone else would step in and do so.

Yes process for chinese made crap would rise. Big rip de do, we are barely getting by anyway, and the new factory jobs to make said goods here in the usa would give people money to buy again.

Either that or print enough money so that they can't jigger their currency like they have. Once they lose that bit of advantage we shall see how well they can compete.

[dgibby]

18. Cost of meds will skyrocket.

http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/05/03/want-to-know-which-drugs-are-made-in-china-check-out-this-list/

It's not just cheap plastic we get from China. They have a corner on the market in precious, rare minerals, too.

[No Elephants]

26. We could fix that, if we had the will.

[LiberalFighter]

19. A good website

Alliance for American Manufacturing

The Alliance for American Manufacturing (AAM) is a unique non-partisan, non-profit partnership forged to strengthen manufacturing in the United States. AAM brings together a select group of America’s leading manufacturers and the United Steelworkers. Our mission is to promote creative policy solutions on such priorities as international trade, energy security, health care, retirement security, currency manipulation and other issues of mutual concern.

We believe that an innovative and growing manufacturing base is vital to America’s economic and national security, as well as to providing good jobs for future generations. AAM achieves its mission through research, public education, advocacy, strategic communications and coalition building around the issues that matter most to America’s manufacturing sector.

Of particular interest
China and Currency Manipulation

[begin_within]

20. What do we need their money for anyway.

[totodeinhere]

37. We need it to finance our massive debt and without it we would be in a real pickle. n/t

[quaker bill]

77. Actually it is more like

they need some place to store all those excess dollars we have been sending their way.

[begin_within]

88. So China is now our bank?

What does that say about our sovereignty? Our stature in the world?
After we bought every useless trinket they could make in the last 40 years?
We end up in debt to them? What the hell happened?

[totodeinhere]

91. I don't know exactly how it came to this and there is plenty of blame to go around for

why it happened. But it's a fact that China is by far the largest holder of foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities.

[jeff47]

115. Actually, we don't.

The vast majority of our debt is owed to US citizens and companies. China owns a small fraction of what they do.

China reached it's position of owning so much debt in an attempt to keep the Yuan low vs. the dollar, so that Chinese labor remained cheap relative to US labor. Like all pyramid schemes, it's not sustainable.

[Initech]

24. We are running a failed system. Borrow & spend does not work. Tax & spend does.

[madville]

27. China is not the United States' biggest creditor

The Social Security Trust fund is the United States' single biggest creditor. China owns 7.5% of the US debt, the SS trust fund owns almost 18% of the US debt, or about 2.5 trillion.

[madrchsod]

71. please do not confuse people with the facts...oh yes...

then throw in our internal bond holdings.

[coalition_unwilling]

86. Actually, I think China only holds about 4.5% of US debt, but otherwise

your point is well taken. The China bashing taking place in this thread is really apalling.

[jeff47]

116. And single biggest creditors are bad ways to measure such things.

The millions of US Citizens and Companies that bought US Debt vastly outstrip what's owed to China.

[Drahthaardogs]

28. Good. Maybe now we need to tell China

that the "Good old days" of severely undervalued currency and cheap imports are over as well. We need fair trade practices, we have for years.

[humblebum]

30. That's OK. My good old days of buying Chinese ended a couple years ago.

It's more expensive but if more do so the prices will go down. Also, getting warranty and coustermer services are so much easier and better.

[mainer]

31. China's military % GDP: 1.65%

US military %GDP: 4.7%

Maybe that's part of our problem?

[BR_Parkway]

32. Why falsely state that China is US biggest creditor? Social Security trust fund is

it's like the perception that the bulk of our oil comes for middle east, when it's merely a fraction

[madville]

39. Social Security is essentially broke since the trust fund is US debt

Just a big box full of IOUs.

[Lasher]

57. Fallacious old right wing cliché.

I get tired of debunking this bullshit, only to see it repeated endlessly by people who want to default on the Social Security Trust Fund bonds.

[BR_Parkway]

59. They just don't want to have to pay it back

[Lasher]

98. That is my perception. Everything else is rationalization and propaganda.

[melm00se]

64. quick question

where will the money come from to pay off those IOUs/bonds?

[Lasher]

70. Quick answer

The same place any money comes from to satisfy our obligations.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lasher]

95. Borrowing more, taxing more, growth in the economy, or cutting some other program.

You get money to fund the military. You get money to pay interest on the debt owed to other countries. You get money to redeem the Social Security Trust Fund bonds the same way.

You think the Social Security Trust Fund is make-believe because it's internal debt? What about the Federal Pension Trust Fund? It's just the same—all $800 billion of it. You mean there are no military pensions? What about the $280 billion in Medicare Trusts—are those fake? And, the highway trust and all other government trusts? $3.1 trillion all told.

And what's the problem with "paper"? A thousand dollar bill is paper, the check I write, my stock certificate, my government bond—all paper. Did you expect the trust would be made of diamonds?

http://zfacts.com/p/336.html

Hell, most of us don't even get paper anymore. Do you think your checking account should be declared worthless because your monthly statement is a worthless piece of cyberspace?

What of the millions of Americans who own Treasury bonds, all paper? Seven trillion dollars of national debt has been spent on government programs, and there is "nothing left." Has the US of A defrauded the world of $7 trillion?

When you put money in the bank you get paper, and they lend your money to someone who spends it. Your cash does not stay in the bank. Do you really think the SSA should have a storeroom of cash?

[AdamVikingen]

35. Time for change

It is not that i want to be mean or anything, but as a Marxist and fellow human in this our only world, i believe this is a really cold wake up for the U.S. Its time to face the fact that the USA are not the mightiest and wealthiest nation of the world any more.

It is time once and for all to admit that the U.S system isn't the very best in the world and then its time to go onward and evolve! S system cant remain the same for all time as the "Republican Party" proclaim, in these times of need radical changes are needed otherwise the U.S will not only crumble, it will totally fall apart.
And changes like "Removing Labour Unions" as the Republicans said was a good idé, is the very worst idé ever made up. Make the labour Unions completely free from the government.

1.) Free the labour Unions!
2.) Lower the military!!
3.) Remove the trade blockade around Cuba and North Korea!! (I say North Korea because the fight against North Korea is already lost, lets face it, try to get to them trough diplomacy instead of trough violence!)
4.) Stop the huge business owners play around with their workers!
5.) Set ""High"" standards so you can prevent crisis like these!

These are only 5 small things that needs to be done, but these things are 5 strong factors that can change a whole lot in the economy! its time to face that the U.S economy isn't the strongest in the world. The U.S dont only needs to get their economy going plus, they also have huge depts to pay, the biggest depts in the world matter in fact. It will take huge amounts of work, do it right and just and everything might become well in the end!

[bitchkitty]

148. Good luck with that, honey.

Not trying to be mean, but until and unless there is a bloody revolution in this country, none of this will happen. Sorry, I've been beaten into cynicism.

[totodeinhere]

36. A lot of people in this thread seem to think that it's OK if China cuts us off.

But we need someone to finance our massive debt. If China cuts us off we will have to pay a higher interest rate to someone else, and that will translate into more trouble for our economy. A more likely scenario however is that China continues to buy our debt but demands a higher interest rate and that too is bad news for our economy.

[readmoreoften]

48. You got it.

[totodeinhere]

51. I left out the most likely scenario.

We are China's biggest trading partner and they need us to continue to buy their goods. If our economy tanks then we buy less from them and that hurts their economy as well. So I suspect that in spite of what they are saying now they will continue to buy our debt at reasonable rates. Like it or not, our two countries are joined at the hip. We borrow from them; they sell to us.

[Lasher]

103. Better yet, we stop all this free trade bullshit with China and everybody else.

You sell us $100 worth of goods and services, then you are obliged to buy $100 of goods and services from us. You use slave labor in sweatshops to produce your goods, we charge tariffs on your goods instead of continuing the fools' errand of begging you to treat your people better.

The condescending Chinese would wither on the vine and we would prosper.

[totodeinhere]

113. Oh I agree with you, but more free trade agreements, not less are in the works as we speak.

n/t

[Lasher]

165. I am painfully aware of that.

Obama has been pimping them since the get-go. We badly needed a Democrat to turn this country around. But we sure as hell didn't need him.

[readmoreoften]

132. Agreed.

[jeff47]

105. We already have someone to finance our debt.

Us.

The vast majority of US Debt is owed to US citizens and companies. China is a tiny blip compared to that.

[totodeinhere]

111. Here are the stats.

Foreigners own approximately $4.45 trillion of U.S. debt, or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public of $9.49 trillion and 32% of the total debt of $14.1 trillion. China owns 26 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities. That's quite a chunk of change.

[jeff47]

122. 26% of 32% isn't a large percentage.

And my point is governments don't have to borrow from governments or foreigners. This OP (and a ton of people in this thread) are making that erroneous assumption.

If China cuts us off, we'll be fine. How do I know? They cut us off 2 years ago.

China drastically reduced their purchases of US debt in 2009. We were borrowing at about 3% at the time and we're still borrowing at about 3%.

But that's not nearly scary enough to get us to cut Medicare and Social Security so down the memory hole it goes!

[dogmoma56]

38. so is this hard ball because the Democrats didn't join a prayer meeting and pray the rich get richer

with our Over Lords the C Street anti-christ Nazi's and the evangelical Demionists.

[Leontius]

41. US tells China 'Good old days' of currency manipulation,

disregard of patent and intellectual rights, and 'free trade ' fraud are over. Time to compete on our terms.

[AndyTiedye]

42. Hey China, Who Are You Gonna Sell All That Junk To?

Funny how the world's most predatory capitalists reside in that "communist" country.

[ClarkUSA]

43. Stop buying China's goods. Start today, if you haven't already. I began years ago.

The PRC is angry because McAfee very recently publicly revealed evidence of shamelessly widespread global hacking by the Chinese government.

This is their payback. Fuck 'em.

[TomClash]

44. How about this?

You keep your money. We'll just arrange for COSCO's vessels to anchor in the ports of Shanghai, Shenzhen, Qingdao next to empty boxes on the pier.

[corkhead]

45. Where's my broker? SELL!! SELL!!1!!1

Monday is going to be a bloodbath on Wall St.

[Taverner]

49. IT'S THE EMPIRE, STUPID!!!!

Seriously, we could have had a balanced budget if we had just shut down 50% of our overseas bases.

Scotland?

Germany?

Okinawa?

WTF do we need bases there???

The 900 lb elephant in the room is our huge, bloated defense budget.

[dogmoma56]

50. ...because the GOP is out of control and a threat to the stability of the worlds economy in order to

keep a union vote out of Delta Airlines.. and from taxing the 400 richest families worth 1.4 Trillion Dollars who only pay up to 17% income tax.

the top 1% richest hold 42% of Americas Financial Wealth, 6 times that of the bottom 80% who hold only 7%.. the top 5% hold 72%, so the top 20% hold 93% of Financial Wealth. BOTTOM 80% HOLDS ONLY 7%!that is why there is a Recession.. nearly all the available money has been looted by the rich. there isn't enough left to run an economy ..

doug coe's C street Nazi cult that took over the GOP and their flying monkeys the Dominionists believe that God/Jesus only bless the Rich, Wealth and Power is proof of gods Favor of a man/corporation, so it is a "SIN TO TAX THEM". God Speaks directly to the rich/Powerful, the poor must "Submit" totally to their will, and become a slave to god. the poor/sick are being punished by god so it is a "SIN TO HELP THEM", AND not to torment them.

Trickle Down doesn't mean money, it means only gods blessings to those who followed gods greatest plan and made the rich richer. the New World Order is the Utopian Paradise created when all the worlds poor submit to gods great plan, and become slaves.. the GOP is Theocratic Cargo Cult of OCD psychotic narcissistic wealth/power hoarders.. in the 30's Depression FDR appointed Abraham Vereide to a Cabinet position to start programs for the poor to bring them out of poverty.. Vereide's plan was to start Dominionist evangelical "Revivals" all over the country, only the Poor who came and prayed thru and totally submitted to the Dominion of the rich and Gods great plan would get help. he was replaced ..he immediately began undermining the New Deal.. still the fundamental purpose of the GOP is to repeal the New Deal, because it is the work of Satan, communists and Socialists, all interchangeable.

http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html

http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060560053/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312653553&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Street-Fundamentalist-American-Democracy-Readers/dp/0316091065/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312653553&sr=1-1

i have seen some china TV where the oficial gov spokesman said they dont trust "Americas Shadow Government", but they like America

[ramapo]

52. US spent itself into oblivion, just like the USSR

Think back to the Reagan methodology to defeat the USSR. It was to break their economy by forcing spending beyond their means. We have done that and more. Gone into debt to an economic and possibly military adversary. China was smart. They could not defeat the US by military means but now they can squeeze us by our balls until we do what they want. It is all kind of funny in a sad sort of way.

[Lasher]

66. It's been tax cuts more than any other thing that have caused our deficits.

If we would repeal all the Bush tax cuts and terminate the Bush wars right now, we would return to surpluses - not counting the recovery costs of the second Bush recession.

[roamer65]

53. OK CHINA. Depeg from the dollar and see what happens to your economy.

Chicken shits. C'mon do it.:evilgrin:

[madrchsod]

72. 6.5% inflation in china with a housing bubble equal to ours

[L0oniX]

54. Does this mean the end of Walmart charge cards?

:evilgrin:

[Dave From Canada]

55. You guys need to get serious about cutting spending. In Canada during the mid 1990s, we cut almost

20% across the board, which led to 10 years of surplus budgets. And even now after the recession, we're expected to be back to balanced budgets in a year or two. You guys can't even cut 1% without whining about it. You're living in fantasy land.

[Taverner]

56. Amazing how much $$$ we could save if we just just shrunk the military 50%

just sayin

[CountAllVotes]

68. imagine how much we could save without these wars

Problem of debt would be solved!

[Dave From Canada]

120. Yep, your deficit would go from 1.5 trillion to like 1.1 or 1.2 trillion.

[Taverner]

172. Our total Defense Budget is $1.030–$1.415 trillion

Now that includes EVERYTHING, FBI Counter terrorism, DOD, Homeland Security, etc...

But if we shut down the empire, that would at least take a good bite out of the $707.5 billion we are spent last year in Defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Audit_of_Implementation_of_Budget_for_2010

[Lasher]

62. Easy for you to say, you don't have a bloated military/industrial complex hanging around your necks.

And you don't have a powerful oligarchy obsessed with a return to the Gilded Age. We have been overcome by fascism. If you were looking at cutting your national health care and old age pensions, you'd be whining too.

[Dave From Canada]

130. We have had to cut health care. But our health care isn't national. It's provincial. Each

province provides their own type of coverage, related to the Canada Health Act. The federal government provides some funding, but provinces provide much of their own. Our pension system doesn't need to be cut. Because we actually contribute the proper amounts to fund them. Even public workers contribute the appropriate amounts. We don't ask taxpayers to foot the bill.

By the way, just for your information, during the 90s:

Unemployment benefits were cut.
Education was cut.
Health care was cut.
Also our national railway and air traffic control were privatized.

[Lasher]

164. We actually contribute the proper amounts to fund our pension system too.

But our fascists want to cut it anyway, by reneging on the US government bonds held in its trust fund. We never really had any health care to cut. If we don't have health insurance from an employer, or if we can't pay ourselves, sometimes we die and/or go bankrupt. I don't believe anybody in Canada is going bankrupt these days trying to pay medical bills.

[Taverner]

176. And as a result you guys are feeling the stagnation too...

[jeff47]

107. You guys need to get serious about cutting taxes.

Cut your tax rates down to US levels, and you'll be in our boat.

Spending isn't the problem. Taxes are.

[Dave From Canada]

118. Really? Cause our corporate tax rate is a lot lower than yours. Taxes has nothing to do with it.

During the 90s, a ratio of 6 to 1, spending cuts vs taxes was used. You guys can't even get to 2 to 1 without whining. Oh, and we're cutting our corporat tax rate again this year.

[jeff47]

128. Our actual corporate tax rate is lower than yours.

The headline percentage is higher, but all the deductions and credits result in lower actual taxes paid.

And after you guys get your big corporate tax cut done the effective US corporate tax rate will still be about 1/2 yours.

Our financial problems are traced to 2 things:
-Stuff that's supposed to end (the wars, Bush Tax cuts). Not a long-term concern because they are ending.
-Healthcare spending.

Due to our private healthcare system, our healthcare costs are not sustainable, whether paid for by the government or not.

So no, tax cuts won't fix the problem. Neither will the confidence fairy. But single-payer would. That's why you guys did it years ago.

[Dave From Canada]

131. We also have corporate deductions. But we allow corporations to repatriate money abroad at almost

no tax. You guys don't make it worth businesses to repatriate earnings abroad because you tax it at like 30+%. We tax it at 2%. So foreign investment pours into Canada. While you guys keep it away. Not smart.

You can end the wars, and end all Bush tax cuts, but you're still going to have to cut spending, or reform medicare, social security and some other things. Because those programs are going to go broke. You have like 60+ trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities.

We have a single payer system, but it's not a federal system. Each province operates their own health care coverage, with some funding from the federal government. It seems like you guys wanna national type program. That would end up being even more expensive.

Oh and another thing. We don't allow hundreds of thousands of people to pour over our border illegally. We also don't provide social services to non-Canadians. That's something you guys may want to consider if you want your social programs to work properly.

[bongbong]

141. republican talking points

Interesting to see a Canadian poster put them up, although anything is possible with the Rendon Group active on DU.

[jeff47]

159. Wow..really don't know what you're talking aboot, eh?

Our deductions result in companies making billions in income and paying negative taxes. It's an example of how much better at tax cuts we are than you guys are - we've reached the point where the corporate taxes are paid to the companies instead of the government.

And no, there is not an extra surcharge for repatriating funds to the US. They're just income like any other. And repatriating funds has nothing to do with foreign investment - investment is not repatriation.

"You can end the wars, and end all Bush tax cuts, but you're still going to have to cut spending, or reform medicare, social security and some other things. Because those programs are going to go broke."

What you fail to understand is cutting those programs doesn't fix the problems. The problems are there whether or not the government pays for them directly. If we slash medicare but do nothing to reign in rising healthcare costs the government is still paying - lost productivity and lost income mean lower tax receipts.

"We have a single payer system, but it's not a federal system. Each province operates their own health care coverage, with some funding from the federal government. It seems like you guys wanna national type program. That would end up being even more expensive."

Insurance is the most affordable when the risk is spread across the greatest number of people. That's why a national system is cheaper - it spreads the cost best. Also, the largest pool of patients gives the greatest negotiating power, which generally results in the lowest cost. You are paying more for your Medicare program in order to keep it provincial. But at least you be comforted to know those damn Quebecois are using different-looking insurance cards.

"Oh and another thing. We don't allow hundreds of thousands of people to pour over our border illegally."

Yes, you've cleverly put your country in a location where you have very little agriculture. That way you don't need a large army of temporary workers.

"We also don't provide social services to non-Canadians. That's something you guys may want to consider if you want your social programs to work properly."

Our illegal immigrants actually overpay their taxes. Their employer is still required to withhold income taxes, and do so because they don't move - employers are easy for the IRS to track down. But the immigrants have no way to get that withholding back. Net result? More money in income taxes, Medicare taxes and Social Security taxes.

So I'm sorry you don't have a slave labor population you can exploit for extra taxes. Perhaps you can work out a way to monetize dead polar bears.

[onpatrol98]

162. So, tell us how you really feel, Dave...

From your post, it seems you have a very low opinion of Americans and our tax, immigration, debt, and healthcare systems.

Is this how most Canadians feel about America? We often take students abroad, but we warn them that the world does not view us as we view ourselves. Even so, this is a bit of eye opener. Many Americans idolize or perhaps idealizes the Canadian healthcare system. Our country has battles continuously over immigration. It's quite toxic. Because anyone who mentions immigration from your perspective is immediately shut down as racist. People who appear more sympathetic to illegal immigration in terms of the people who enter the country, are deemed supportive of open borders.

Perhaps, we've simply lost our ability to talk to each other. Even on DU at times, any dissent or disagreement dissolves into name calling and the ignore function. So, even on a democratic board, we don't seem to be able to communicate with each effectively.

I don't know about your assessments, but it is enough to make me think.

[George1984]

174. Dave's not here man....

Not sure what part of the country you are in Dave, but out on the left coast there are a couple of boatloads of foreign illegals in custody, getting 3 squares a day, a warm bed and television, at a healthy cost of almost 3k per person per month. They aren't 'allowed' in, but I sure as shit am paying for them. Saying our healthcare system is a single payer system is also false. I can go to the hospital and schedule an MRI, job, no job, rich poor, and wait for them to fit me in, in 6 or 8 weeks. So yes everyone is covered. Great. But I can also go to the private MRI clinic here in town, wait 1 week and pay $400 out of my pocket for the privilege. That is private healthcare. We have, and always have had a two rate system. I think they are great because no matter my situation, I know if I need a doctor I can see one, and they will do the best they can to fix me, and not worry about health insurance forms.

As for corporate tax, this year it is 17%, going to 16% next year, in BC. Any dividend income is taxed at 40%.

I would love to see where we cut 20% across the board. They weren't that high, there were wage freezes and cutbacks to things like healthcare and education, but a large portion of those cutbacks were at the top. They also shelved building new buildings for awhile and made due with current facilities. Many schools were closed and amalgamated but the schools were less the 65% capacity due to the suburban growth. So while Dave has some good points, they are not all in fact correct.

Since I go back and forth between our countries often, I would like to point out that the US has many many redeeming qualities, and the economy was once the benchmark. The top needs its head chopped off and the country would go back to the powerhouse it once was.

[onpatrol98]

117. Canada cut 20% across the board...

I didn't know that. I think we would need to be more strategic than that. Some things are starved now. Others could use more cutting.

[Horse with no Name]

58. "messes of its own making"

Kind of says it all.

[Kablooie]

67. I agree with China.

America has over borrowed to pay it's excessive bills.

The thing is that Clinton moved the country far along the path to managing it's finances.

Bushies destroyed all the progress and moved us back into the danger area.

I would agree that Medicare and SS need some rejiggering but only if everything else is rejiggered as well.

America's financial management is out of control and needs reworking but by someone who can be unbiased and balanced, taking everything into consideration.

This is probably an impossibility any time in the near future with the insane, blind politicians that our country has elected.

[madrchsod]

69. looks like china is the new world standard now...

i wonder if they are ready to put their currency on the world market.

[jeff47]

129. Nope, they're not ready to be the new world currency

That would require letting their currency float. Floating currency would destroy their exports. Destroying their exports destroys their economy.

That's why they bought so much US debt - to keep their currency low relative to the dollar.

[madrchsod]

136. exactly.....

[onpatrol98]

163. true

[unionworks]

75. Dear China

I am so sick of your crap. Keep your junk, we can make our own stuff.

[Truth2Tell]

89. Dear uninworks

Who's "we?" Workers? We can't make our own stuff. 1% of us have all the capital, and therefore they decide where stuff gets made. And they decided quite a while ago, along with the leaders of both of our political parties, that our stuff should be made in China. You and I don't have a say in that. Why blame China for the fact that the owners of all the capital in America have decided to make shit there rather than here?

[NickB79]

109. It would be great to see the US make it's own stuff again, but it won't happen

Because it would be the end of cheap consumer goods. It's amazing what you can get in Walmart these days that would cost many times what they sell it for to make here in the US, due to slave-wages paid to Chinese workers with no safety or environmental protections.

[JohnnyRingo]

92. Now we have the very same AA+ rating that China has.

Having said that, it seems a pretty haughty statement doesn't it?

[mainer]

142. Funny, though, how China isn't borrowing money from us.

[GreenTea]

99. Huge deficit started 30 years ago (Reagan) the lying idiot republicans want to blame Obama' 2 1/2 yr

as the cause of it all....George Bush by himself raised the deficit over 6 trillion dollars himself & Bush signed the bank bailout bill October 4th 2008 - This has been long in the making and the slimy republicans as always never accept any blame they just point fingers at the democrat, the black man they so desperately want to defeat to make America clean again for "their fat-faced people' Republicans only care about money and the greedy rich and their corporations.

What was the first thing Bush did when he stole presidency....the very first thing.....He gave huge tax cuts to the very richest 2% and there went President Clinton's surplus and Bush just kept on spending and republicans never said a word they were enjoying the gravy train, robbing the treasury.....

But as soon as a democrat is in office they start screaming about the deficit (because they don't want money to go to social programs republicans want tit to go to the rich and their corporations...so they scream, record number of filibuster and obstructionist holding the debt ceiling hostage)

And blame it ALL on Obama even though he inherited all their bullshit and just pappy Bush they left the economy in far worst shape then they told anyone....they took the money, laughed and lie and said let the democrats take the blame!

[defendandprotect]

101. Uncle Sam "the dead beat" -- by GOP and Obama -- !!

[jeff47]

112. So...where's the down side?

China was buying debt to keep the exchange rate between our currencies low. If they had let the currency float, the Yuan would rise relative to the dollar, and suddenly China's labor isn't cheap anymore.

So they threw a lot of money at US Treasuries to keep the Yuan low relative to the dollar. But like all pyramid schemes, it can't be sustained forever. So they're trying to save face by calling it the US's fault.

If China stops buying US Debt, and China doesn't go back on assurances that they'll let their currency float, the US benefits. Chinese labor isn't as cheap, and newly-middle-class Chinese can afford US goods.

[dipsydoodle]

149. the Yuan would rise

and ultimately become part of a new reserve currency which amongst other things will replace the petrodollar. That could lead to a 50% devaluation of the dollar in which case the price of Chinese and all other imports would increase substantially whilst making US exports considerably cheaper. Problem solved.

[jeff47]

160. You vastly overstate the benefit of the dollar as a reserve currency.

The US doesn't get an enormous benefit from the dollar being used by other nations. The benefit to us international deals with the US are denominated in dollars, so we're sheltered somewhat from currency fluctuations. Which may or may not be a bad thing, depending on exchange rates.

My guess is you're confusing the Yuan (or Euro, or whatever) becoming the de-facto global currency with our ability to issue debt in dollars.

Greece, Portugal and the like are in financial trouble because they can't deflate the currency their debt is denominated in. But oil deals being denominated in Euros doesn't reduce our ability to issue debt in dollars. We'd still be able to borrow in Dollars, just like Japan can borrow in Yen and Brazil can borrow in Real and the UK can borrow in Pounds.

[dipsydoodle]

183. The issue is the petrodollar recycling program

If the dollar ceased to be the main reserve currency the petrodollar scheme would collapse. Broadly speaking petrodollars can only be reinvested back inside the US in some shape or form - that whats so clever about the scheme . :sarcasm:
End that and aside from reduced investment , if any , the US would lose its ability to print fiat money unabated.

[jeff47]

206. You know, I'm not sure if I've ever seen an argument that is more wrong.

"Broadly speaking petrodollars can only be reinvested back inside the US in some shape or form"

Um....no. Dollars are just a currency. There are lots of people outside the US who are willing to accept dollars in return for goods and services. For example, the people that sell oil for dollars. They then give those dollars to Mercedes when they buy a car. The Germans then go trade the dollars to someone else who may or may not be in the US.

"End that and aside from reduced investment , if any , the US would lose its ability to print fiat money unabated."

Again, wrong. The entire point of fiat money is you can always print it unabated. There is no physical good backing up the currency, be it gold or oil. It's value is entirely based on people around the world accepting that currency in return for goods and services.

[Vinca]

121. Here's an idea. I know it's crazy, but indulge me,

WE COULD BRING OUR FUCKING JOBS HOME FROM CHINA AND HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF TAX REVENUE COMING IN . . . AND THERE WOULD BE JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Sorry. I rarely yell, but it had to come out.)

[cstanleytech]

126. Exactly.

That and close the loopholes to generate more revenue and stop bickering an solve the problems like S&P recommended.

[lib2DaBone]

135. Esactly. Tell China...."IT'S OVER" no more shipping your inferior....

Tell CHina NO MORE shipping their rotten dry wall and inferior junk into the United States!

[FreeStateDemocrat]

124. We need to cut back on the 'Good Old Days' of importing Chinese junk.

[Firebrand Gary]

139. And GOOD OLD AMERICA should slap a 20% tax increase on all product made in China.

That put a cork in their mouths real quick.

[SanchoPanza]

153. The "good old days" of subsidizing exports through currency manipulation are over.

This is what China has been complaining about for years. Their growth strategy rests on two pillars: regular interest payments from U.S. debt securities, and making their goods cheaper in foreign markets by artificially devaluing the renminbi. The decline of the dollar has undermined its ability to do that, and in tern has undermined their ability to unfairly compete with the United States and other nations that have open currency markets. This is the root of their constant caterwauling for a new global reserve currency; the United States and the Eurozone aren't such a fat targets anymore and they're looking for a new way to keep up those 10% growth projections, because that's the only way they'll keep their citizenry working and in line.

In other words, take whatever you hear from their state-run media with an Everest-sized grain of salt.

[cppuddy]

156. to hell with china

The US should raise the chinese tariffs to 25%, like they do with our goods. Make their currency trade fairly on the open market. Make sure they play by all the rules we have too.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

157. ...but we can just print more money?

or give them bananas?

[McCamy Taylor]

158. China also wants us to cut social spending. China can go jump in the Yangtze.

[MichiganVote]

173. Well we know who will blink first nowadays.

[bamacrat]

180. The world needs us to be AAA rated.

We are the global reserve currency we are the largest economy, we spend more than most of the world combined. IF we stumble so does the world. The leaders of the AAA world need to make a plea to the American people to stop elected stupid people who are jeopardizing the world economy and destroying our country. Tea Baggers won't listen to anyone but maybe the goons who vote for them will see what they have done and demand tax hikes on the rich, then end of both wars, eliminating subsides for oil companies and rebuilding our nations failing infrastructure. Until we do these things we will continue to slide into irrelevancy. In 2010 China spent $114 Billion on defense, we spent $698 Billion. They have 5 times the people we do yet no one has messed with them, they are safe. We could cut our spending to $400 Billion and still have the biggest baddest military in the world. We are following the path of all great empires the world has seen. We have spread ourselves too thin, allowed radical factions to destroy or government, bankrupting our society and squandering the potential we once had. We can still be the world preeminent empire but we need to become the new age global leader. We need to be streamlined, progressive, stable, like a surgeon with their scalpel, instead of an oaf with a hammer. We should lead the world in culture, human rights and political and economical philosophies, not drag the world down with fantasies of free enterprise. The 20th Century is over, populations are radically higher, resources are running out and being consumed at an alarming rate.

Socialism may not be the answer either though. We are no longer a social democracy. We have morphed into an oligarchy, those who want and need controlled by those who have, and a government held hostage by those who feel that the rich and corporations deserve better treatment than people who find them selves outside that category. There are a growing number of republicans and those who vote for them that realize we cannot fix what is wrong without ending the breaks given to the richest. A countries government is the only entity that can adequately impact things like job creation, economic growth, and adequate living standards. Companies are not people, even though the Supreme court disagrees. They are run by the rich "job creators", but people are selfish and greedy, especially those who have. The people who have want more but don't need it, the people who need want some but don't get it. In our countries modern state all men are not created equal, a few are created rich and deemed more valuable and every one else is only important during election cycles. Until we return to a mentality that the majority fuel growth innovation and economic prosperity we will never again be what we were.

The only way we can regain our AAA credit rating and take back our place at the top is by tax increases. We can't just gut the budget and progress. The rich have to pay more, and not even a lot more. If the richest 1% paid 10% more than they do now we would have half the deficit we do now without changing anything. If you are making $10Million or more every year you will still be unimaginably rich. I'm sorry I just don't understand how anyone cannot understand why taxing the rich more makes sense, especially right now. Everything should be on the table and no Tea bagger should be allowed in the room with the table. End both wars, and the Bush tax cuts, cut oil subsidies and tax loopholes for corporations, legalize and tax marijuana and create a green economy based on hemp, solar, wind and biodiesel and we would lead the world once again. But, that won't happen because we are no longer just the USA we are now USA Inc.

[bamacrat]

181. The world needs us to be AAA rated.

We are the global reserve currency we are the largest economy, we spend more than most of the world combined. IF we stumble so does the world. The leaders of the AAA world need to make a plea to the American people to stop electing stupid people who are jeopardizing the world economy and destroying our country. Tea Baggers won't listen to anyone but maybe the goons who vote for them will see what they have done and demand tax hikes on the rich, then end of both wars, eliminating subsides for oil companies and rebuilding our nations failing infrastructure. Until we do these things we will continue to slide into irrelevancy. In 2010 China spent $114 Billion on defense, we spent $698 Billion. They have 5 times the people we do yet no one has messed with them, they are safe. We could cut our spending to $400 Billion and still have the biggest baddest military in the world. We are following the path of all great empires the world has seen. We have spread ourselves too thin, allowed radical factions to destroy or government, bankrupting our society and squandering the potential we once had. We can still be the world preeminent empire but we need to become the new age global leader. We need to be streamlined, progressive, stable, like a surgeon with their scalpel, instead of an oaf with a hammer. We should lead the world in culture, human rights and political and economic philosophies, not drag the world down with fantasies of free enterprise. The 20th Century is over, populations are radically higher, resources are running out and being consumed at an alarming rate.

Socialism may not be the answer either though. We are no longer a social democracy. We have morphed into an oligarchy, those who want and need controlled by those who have, and a government held hostage by those who feel that the rich and corporations deserve better treatment than people who find them selves outside that category. There are a growing number of republicans and those who vote for them that realize we cannot fix what is wrong without ending the breaks given to the richest. A countries government is the only entity that can adequately impact things like job creation, economic growth, and adequate living standards. Companies are not people, even though the Supreme court disagrees. They are run by the rich "job creators", but people are selfish and greedy, especially those who have. The people who have want more but don't need it, the people who need want some but don't get it. In our countries modern state all men are not created equal, a few are created rich and deemed more valuable and every one else is only important during election cycles. Until we return to a mentality that the majority fuel growth innovation and economic prosperity we will never again be what we were.

The only way we can regain our AAA credit rating and take back our place at the top is by tax increases. We can't just gut the budget and progress. The rich have to pay more, and not even a lot more. If the richest 1% paid 10% more than they do now we would have half the deficit we do now without changing anything. If you are making $10Million or more every year you will still be unimaginably rich. I'm sorry I just don't understand how anyone cannot understand why taxing the rich more makes sense, especially right now. Everything should be on the table and no Tea bagger should be allowed in the room with the table. End both wars, and the Bush tax cuts, cut oil subsidies and tax loopholes for corporations, legalize and tax marijuana and create a green economy based on hemp, solar, wind and biodiesel and we would lead the world once again. But, that won't happen because we are no longer just the USA we are now USA Inc.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

185. China's peg of their currency..

.. will soon be over too. Their hubris is not much less offensive than our own.

[russspeakeasy]

187. Dear china, so are the days of 2 1/2 % import fees..they are now 25%

the same as you charge us.:nopity:

[ArcherMike]

189. A "new stable global reserve currency"

Maybe the Chinese tyrant commie government should un-peg their currency from the dollar.

[jpak]

194. Thank you teabaggers

dumbasses

[CountAllVotes]

195. China poisons the world

As they have killed how many of our pets and us with their toxic imports.

We continue to support them anyway.

Pot meet kettle.

:dem:

[ozone_man]

196. That's OK, "there is an invention called the printing press."

- Ben Bernanke

Or from his predecessor Greenspan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4951633

[primavera]

197. Does this mean we'll undergo cheap plastic crap withdrawal?

[roomfullofmirrors]

198. trade war time. get some.

[mainer]

208. China may turn into a bigger consumer market than we are

And the U.S. is a smaller and smaller part of the consumer market every year. So our losing the Chinese market may be worse than their losing the American market.

In my own experience, I've found that the majority of my income now comes from abroad -- and not from sales within the U.S. It's happened only in the last five years. Americans just aren't buying anything these days.

[AverageJoe90]

213. What has post-Mao China done for anybody, anyway

[raccoon]

214. How dare the Chinese try to tell the US what to do! Don't they know the US is #1? :sarcasm: nt