Kay WMD Report could be devastating to Dems, good for Bush

[RegenerationMan]

I know this is from Debka.com, which is sourced by Israeli intelligence and is considered right-wing but Debka consistently reports the news a couple of months before we hear it here, if we ever hear it at all Plus for whatever it's worth, the Library of Congress acknowledged Debka's amazing Internet coverage of the Iraq War which accurately reported for instance how the War started secretly on Wednesday yet it was only on Friday that the U.S. press released the news that troops were in Iraq and near Um Qasr. There is really no other site like it on the Web, not even Janes.com (Jane's Report). So take it with a grain of salt, if that makes it taste any better.

According to Debka, the WMD Report out soon from David Kay, based on the mountain of Iraqi documents will have hard evidence of large WMD programs in Iraq, with video of Iraqis telling how prisoners were subjected to chemical and biological weapons tests. A mass grave of 3,000 supposedly killed by these tests is being analyzed through multiple autopsies. Seven and a half miles of documents were sorted into 3 batches, quote below:

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=533

<snip>

The Kay team spent the first month of its mission sorting into three batches what he described as “an estimated seven and-a-half miles of documents”, many of them collected by US military from Iraqi official buildings, but many others handed over by Iraqi civilians.

The data yielded is substantial:

Batch One: Records of Saddam’s chemical, biological and nuclear programming with notes on budgets, manpower and procurement requirements. Detailed are the Saddam regime’s plans, productions processes and timetables for WMD development as well as special programs for concealing it all from UN inspectors for twelve years. Saddam’s officials hid these thousands of documents from the United Nations Blix-ElBarardei inspection team and left them out of the voluminous “full accounting” Baghdad submitted to the UN Security Council before the war.

Batch Two: This group, which also consists of many thousands of pieces of paper, tracks the implementation of the WMD programs with time schedules and assessments of progress made in each category and inventories the stocks building up in the illegal arsenal. Scientists or engineers would often win bonuses for notable progress in their work.

Batch Three: This pile offers leads to locations where forbidden weapons may have been concealed when the records were drawn up and ways to access them, including the evidence of the transfer to Syria by Saddam’s agents of large parts of the forbidden program.

After talking in secret to the Senate Armed Services Committee, Kay declared there was a “truly amazing” deception program to throw UN weapons off the trail. We have people who participated in deceiving UN inspectors now telling us how they did it.”

<snip>

This is such good news for Bush, Blair and PM Howard of Australia, that Howard is now looking to hold a snap election at the end of the year. Even though no WMD weapons themselves have been found, the report says they WERE SHIPPED TO SYRIA, so Bush is off the hook and Assad is on the hook.

PLUS an Italian investigation says anti-war Italian intelligence agents forged the Niger documents to make Bush/Blair look bad!

Talk amongst yourselves!

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!!

[indictrichardperle]

1. LOL

a stack of paper and a few Chalabi INC stooges lying their ass off on video tape.

Yep, Debka is one reliable source........:evilgrin:

I guess that settles it. LOL

[Rose Siding]

6. They thought they had Galloway, too...

"Found" documents in Iraq had said he did deals with Saddam. It was problematic that tests revealed they'd been created within a few weeks instead of years ago as had been the claim.

[mpsteve]

10. I agree

So what if he had weapons and did this and did that. Tell us something we don't know.

The hawks always, always, always want ignore the fact that Iraq was NO imminent threat to us. The policy of containment was working well and at a substantial discount to the $80 billion we've spent thus far.

[Rhiannon12866]

68. And I agree with you

Iraq was never a threat to the U.S., despite Bush*s ridiculous contentions that they were complicit in 9/11 and had ties to al-Qaeda. Because no one called him on this, he got away with actually saying they were responsible and the majority of the American public probably believes this.:grr:

The fact that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi and that the U.S. had the intelligence that the Saudi royal family has supported Islamic charities which funded al-Qaeda is never mentioned. They are BFEE buddies in big oil and not even included in his ``axis of evil.'' I am glad that this last is finally being publicized because of the censored 9/11 report, but this story may come to nothing, like so many others.:shrug:

Yes, containment was working, and it not only cost the American taxpayers much less in dollars, but also did not result in the deaths of hundreds of American soldiers and thousands of Iraqi citizens.;(

Welcome to DU, mpsteve! We're glad to have you, and your informed voice, among us!:toast:

[mjb4]

2. Moving the Goal posts are ya!

we never went to war over a WEAPONS PROGRAM! we went to war over TONS of weapons ready to deploy in 45 minutes! ready to kill Americans Ready to kill Iraq's neighbors! Now we are praising a WEAPONS PROGRAM designed by the US Rumsfeld defense in 1980's...stay with the original argument. They already think US citizens are dumb. Don't confirm it by easily ignoring the truth and their lies.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

30. Actually, 50% of Americans are dumb...the Repuke side. :)

n/t

JB

[zonmoy]

46. or

has had their minds straighjacketed by their preachers and religious leaders.

[bitchkitty]

81. AND -

Don't forget - by the television.

[LiberalFighter]

67. I watched a PBS doc on Watergate this afternoon

At the time... about 50% of the American people were unaware of Watergate.

The program was Watergate Plus 30: Shadow of History

[chillwindblowing]

33. it's time to punt

thank you for expressing so eloquently. you have read my mind

[peterh]

44. That’s it in a nutshell…

We knew they had physical stuff prior to `98 and the intellectual capacity to produce the physical stuff has always been there, but then, that could be said of any country. But, it’s the physical stuff that got top billing and only physical stuff can be classified as an immediate (45-minute type) threat. It’s the old “bait-and-switch” and we’re not buying it.

[alcuno]

3. Paperwork?

We invaded for paperwork? I heard David Kay use the "7 1/2 mile" language weeks ago.

All I care about is the nuclear threat. It's the 21st century; everyone has bio and chem stuff.

[MuseRider]

18. Paper work as WMD

7 1/2 miles of paperwork could cause one hell of a traffic jam in one of our free American cities!

[booksenkatz]

4. Not devastating to Dems

If true, it would only prove that America should have let the inspectors continue to do their work. Nothing can ever justify America's pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation. Nothing.

[bearfartinthewoods]

80. if they have iraquis willing to tell tales of outwitting the UN inspectors

that sort of negates the 'let the inspectors do their work' idea

[MuseRider]

5. Looks like Mr. Kay has been

a busy boy. Covered all the bases and leaked it all to Debka. Hmmmm.

[Melinda]

7. Could be, schmood be, consider Kay:

What David Kay is leaving out of his bio these days is that until 2002, he was VP of SAIC, a company rolling in Bush defense contracts. Kay produced "retroactive" evidence of WMDs for Bush I. Now he's Bush and Tenet's pick to get the goods...tho' he was fired in 1992 from his UN job for unethical behavior

Link

Like Bremer, Rice, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the cast of hardened corporate characters, David Kay is an overfed relic from a past rightwing hawk regime. Under Reagan, he was a chief scientist for the Pentagon as well as serving as a section chief for the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Administration of the UN) from 1983 until 1991. During this time, Hans Blix - Kay's boss - who was a man of integrity, was continually pressured by first Reagan, then Bush I. to come up with 'evidence' that oil-rich Iraq posed a sufficient nuclear threat for the US to invade (and thus to capture the oil).

In fact, until Kay came along, most experts in most western nations believed there was no evidence for an extensive WMD program in Iraq. But after the war, when Bush I needed greater validation for his actions in the run up to the 1992 election, Kay was made chief nuclear inspector for the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) on Iraq. UNSCOM was created in response to the Bush claims that Iraq was a hotbed of WMD weaponry that had to be 'dismantled.' Kay's investigations turned up all sorts of 'evidence' -given the time lapse from the end of the war to Kay's mission, who knows how much of it was planted -possibly all of it. Certainly the contributions of some 'defectors' have been totally dicredited. But UNSCOM produced the same sort of arrays of conveniently -in fact, unbelievably- detailed documents, all just left 'just laying around,' waiting to be found by Kay and company. The same evidence we hear reported ad infinitum and sans question on NBC, CNN, et al. Thanks to Kay's obliging efforts for Bush after Gulf War I, the stage was neatly set for Gulf War II. In fact, the entire invasion of Iraq was trumped up over the UN clause referring to WMDs.

Whenever Kay makes the rounds of the Bush-controlled media these days, he is always introduced only as 'former UN chief weapons inspector' and 'senior fellow at the Potomac Institute for Policy Research.' In short, Kay skips over several years of his interim history. Why? Maybe because during the 'missing years,' he was Vice President of Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC), a company with extremely close ties to the Pentagon and to the Bush administration in particular. A company up to its armpits in post-war Iraqi business, not to mention secret contracts rumored to involve electronic spying. A company in which Kay is rumored to still hold a sizeable chunk of stock, one where he maintains a rich network of inside connections.

SAIC's recent history is interesting, to say the least. The company was commissioned by G. W. Bush in 2002 to construct a replica of a mobile WMD laboratory of the sort used by Saddam. This mock up, supposedly destined to be used to train teams searching for WMDs in Iraq, was designed by Stephen Hatfill, the WMD expert now being harangued into isolation and thus silence by Bush's FBI. Last spring, the Bush administration handed SAIC some of the biggest defense contract plums to be had -a billion-dollar chunk of the NexGen business and an unbelievably porky 10-year contract worth over $600 million. I bet Kay just danced a jig of joy over that one, with visions of overflowing stock returns. Just think how much gratitude a couple of billion dollars can buy. Maybe even enough to produce another round of "evidence," thus setting the stage for Gulf War III?

[DBoon]

23. Not rumored!!

....not to mention secret contracts rumored to involve electronic spying

No -- SAIC designs and implements systems for electronic spying. SAIC has huge contracts for implementing CALEA, which mandates that all telephone switching equipment be "wiretap ready" such that 1% of all calls can be monitored (that 1% is server orders of magnitudes higher than the actual authorized wiretaps).

Quoting from a press release:

SAIC and Telcordia Technologies provides telecommunications consulting services to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)'s Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) Implementation Section (CIS). In this effort, the SAIC CALEA Team provides CIS with an interactive Internet Web site that facilitates on-line CALEA information queries from federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies, telecommunications associations, and over 3,000 telecommunications carriers. The ability to empower outside organizations with 24-hour access to CALEA-related information and data is a key strategic element in the FBI's CALEA implementation strategy.

[Lostnote03]

55. Thanks for the post!!!

......When I saw the above topic I immediently recalled the recent IndyMedia report.....Thank you for posting this....This guy will be blown out of the water regarding credibility when he attempts to establish his "convincing" evidence for Jr. CIA President Bush....When Americans are imformed of his SAIC contracts as well as Blixs denouncement of his motives surrounding his UNSCOM dismissal there will be NO denying the "tit-for-tat" involved with his appointment.....Actually this just adds to the "highs crimes and misdemeanors" list for Bush....

[onecitizen]

84. I knew it, I knew it..........

I knew I had heard something a very long time ago about this dweeb. Something like him being a "double agent". I knew it was not one bit flattering to him and it would not instill confidence in him to legally find the goods on Saddam.

Tnanx for the link Melinda, I can rest now!

[lfairban]

92. SAIC was involved in Venezuela

About SAIC from Halliburton:
http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2000/hesnws_041000.jsp

I just found this:

Venezuela Today's Washington D.C. Bureau reports that Venezuelan lawyers have laid out their full case against Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) with the government side claiming that SAIC has been involved in "a pattern of half truths and lying in regards to the actions of state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) as they relate to a now defunct Intesa/SAIC joint venture. San Diego (California) SAIC is reportedly heading into bankruptcy.

http://adam.antville.org/stories/440371/

[wryter2000]

8. Thanks for reporting this

We shall see what we shall see. We didn't go to war over "programs," and if Bush takes us into Syria now, I think it'll be the end of him, even if it is the right thing to do.

[mbperrin]

9. Yeah, thousands of missiles, thousands of tons of chemicals..

hell, they just converted them to paper format; put 'em in the old Whizbang Instantaneous Converter Machine and covert from .doc to .fiendishWMDs, and voila! 45 minutes to launch, JUST LIKE THEY SAID!

Uh, so why the fuck didn't they use them? Downtime for machine maintenance, my friend, loading up the latest Microsoft patches, so thank Bill Gates for saving the world! Reliable software and we'd all be dead, right?


I WANT MY FUCKING THOUSANDS OF MISSILES AND THOUSANDS OF TONS OF FUCKING CHEMICALS AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!!!!!


If this works, can I write a letter describing the millions I have in banks and then run out and spend them? Please?

[DBoon]

24. Yes you can

If this works, can I write a letter describing the millions I have in banks and then run out and spend them? Please?

Why not? It worked for Kenneth Lay

[saskatoon]

78. Kenneth Lay

Re Kenneth Lay, has anyone heard ANYTHING in regards to him, you occassionally hear of some of Enron other characters but never Kenny Boy.

[0rganism]

95. Check the LBN forums, he just lost a million selling his Aspen mansions

Speak of the devil, eh?

Kenny Boy is an economic terrorist who will never do time.

[bigwoody]

26. Exactly, 45 min. notice to launch, TONS of this, 1,000's of liters of that

What a bunch of shit. With MONTHS of notice that the hated infidels were coming, not 1 attempt at the use of these weapons? So, an army that couldn't launch a WMD attack on an enemy at binocular range was an imminent threat to us like 7,000 miles away? BTW, now that we control the 2 largest oil supplies(Saudi and Iraq) in the world why have gasoline prices not gone down?

[CANDO]

42. Right you are, Bigwoody!

Now that we control the oil you don't suppose they are willing to hurt the money supply by lowering prices, do you? It was simply about control, not low prices.

[bearfartinthewoods]

83. how about 30 brand new MIGs

just for an example of saddamn's prediliction for burying things
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3116259.stm

US forces in Iraq have discovered dozens of Iraqi fighter aircraft buried in the desert, US officials have said.
A Pentagon official told the Associated Press news agency that several MiG-25s and Su-25 attack planes were found hidden at al-Taqqadum air base west of Baghdad.

The planes were unearthed by teams hunting for alleged weapons of mass destruction.

The discovery comes as America's weapons inspector in Iraq say they are making solid progress in the search for banned weapons the US says Saddam Hussein was hiding

[haymaker]

91. We can always count on you to come to the aid

of Bush on ANY topic. Migs are not WMD FYI.

And you know damn good and well why they were buried, so they wouldn't be blown up. Drrrr.

"Good work. You'll be rewarded soon after re-election." - Karl

[bearfartinthewoods]

100. let's see, when you say saddamn buries things that he doesn't want found

you're speaking common knowledge but when i say it, i'm supporting bush.

not one of your better efforts......

the point is that we should not take for granted that nothing will be found. if all these high muckity mucks have been interviewed and no one mentioned 30 freaking MIGs hidden under the sand, who knows what else will "surface".

[Birthmark]

11. I'm with the rest of these folks.

We spent a lot of lives and money for these WMDs. We want what we paid for not a story about it.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

12. B.S!!!!

So Mr. Kay, did you plant those Weapons?

[aquart]

35. No, honey. He planted the paperwork. Pay attention.

Don'tcha love how we're now supposed to invade Syria to get these mythical weapons?

Ooooh, everybody, be scared of Syria!

Pointing out that when al quaida (which is neither Iraqi nor Syrian) needed to bring down New York buildings, they didn't borrow a few nuke missiles from Saddam and launch them at us.

They moved to the US, and stole American aircraft which had already been fueled.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just push a button and launch a WMD?

[papau]

13. More Bull - Bush was warned by Israel about 9/11 - and ignored them

And we get a "don't ask about Bush and Saudi's, or Israel gets shot" bull shit.

The is should be posted on Free Republic - it would be believed there.

[Star]

16. The freepers don't buy it either

This was posted on free rep., and they're sceptical too.

To: Pubbie

Please do not quote *anything* from debka as a realiable source.

Their "Debka source" consists of a magic 8 ball, and little more.



To: ido_now

Re: Debka is a disinformation source which most Americans eat up.

Agreed!


To: ido_now

I think "Debka" is Israeli for "BS."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/957186/posts

[Redleg]

14. They will baffle us with bullshit.

Where did these top-secret documents come from? Don't people think they would be better guarded, etc.? Why would Saddam get rid of WMDs and not get rid of some of the docs that could incriminate him?

I can't wait to see what crap Kay dredged up. It will be long on conjecture and short on proof.

[oasis]

15. "weapons program"???????

:eyes:

[skip fox]

17. I'm not biting. One more reason for skepticism:

Are we supposed to believe that the administration that drug reporters to
a rose bush in an Iraqi scientist's back yard and touted the two trailers as
WMDs (and this is how W., himself referred to them AFTER they'd been called
into question) . . . are we meant to believe that they all of a sudden, over the
past month, decided not to make public findings which PROVE WMDs?

Listen, they're desparate and would have brought any new credible discovery of
and magnitude to the public's attention immediately.

[onecitizen]

87. Don't forget that little airplane.........

made from a crafts store with a weed-eater engine that was supposed to be able to come here and distribute the WMD!! Remember that? hahahahahaha

[Aries]

19. " Kay is a very suspicious character"

Here's the antidote to the Debkafile spin:

xymphora

Sunday, August 03, 2003

What is David Kay up to in Iraq? Kay is a very suspicious character, and may even have been the person responsible for telling the Bush Administration that the International Atomic Energy Agency had produced a report in 1991 that indicated that Iraq was at the time just six months away from having a nuclear bomb, a report that Bush and Blair both used in their war propaganda but which in fact never existed. Many people, including me, thought that Kay was going to discover the weapons of mass destruction that he had previously planted in Iraq, thus saving Bush's bacon. This still might happen, although as we move farther along and he still has not found anything it appears more likely that he is going to come up with some other answer to Bush's problems with the missing weapons of mass destruction. Both Kay's words and the words of the Bush Administration seem to be leading us to the idea that Saddam had a 'program' of producing weapons of mass destruction, and the concept of a 'program' replacing the discovery of actual weapons seems to be the new answer of the Bush Administration:


1. In Bush's last pathetic 'press conference', which, given the lack of any real questions by the press was hardly a press conference, and, given the remarkable inability of Bush to think or speak, was hardly a press conference, Bush said (my emphasis):
"We know that Saddam Hussein produced and possessed chemical and biological weapons, and has used chemical weapons. We know that. He also spent years hiding his weapons of mass destruction programs from the world. We now have teams of investigators who are hard at work to uncover the truth."

and

"David Kay came to see me yesterday. He's going to testify in a closed hearing tomorrow, which in Washington may not be so closed, as you know. And he was telling me the process that they were going through to analyze all the documentation. And that's not only to analyze the documentation on the weapons programs that Saddam Hussein had, but also the documentation as to terrorist links."

and

"And in order to, you know, placate the critics and the cynics about intention of the United States we need to produce evidence. And I fully understand it, and I'm confident that our search will yield that which I strongly believe: that Saddam had a weapons program.

I want to remind you, he actually used his weapons program on his own people at one point in time, which was pretty tangible evidence."

Note how Kay is analyzing documentation to find the weapons program, and how Bush slides weapons and a program of weapons together by saying that Saddam used his weapons program on his own people, hardly likely unless Saddam hit them over the head with his documents. The play on words works because a 'program' might refer to the method of making the weapons and the weapons themselves, or may just refer to a potential plan to make weapons. Saddam just had the plan, and not the weapons. Bush's unscripted public appearances are so cringeworthy that you almost feel sorry for him for how absolutely unprepared he is for his job, but he did manage to remember to insert the key word: 'program'....

[Star]

27. Documentation to terrorist links?

And that's not only to analyze the documentation on the weapons programs that Saddam Hussein had, but also the documentation as to terrorist links."

Magically found in the 7 1/2 miles of paperwork, and obviously typed on an old Remington typewriter:

Hey, Saddam old buddy: You know those WMD you buried in the desert in 1998? The ones you've been hiding from the weapons inspectors? Well, we could sure use them. Especially that yellowcake you got from Niger. Let me know your price. Say Hi to your lovely wife and daughters, and give Udai and Qusai a punch in the arm for me. God is great! Osama

<<sarcasm off>>

[Sideways]

20. David Kay Is Full Of Shit

This little minature wanna-be is a fucking poster child of Bush suck-ups.

Do a google search on Kay if you have the time to burn. He is a small man with very BIG AGENDAS.

AKA his dick is very tiny but his narcissistic ideas are quite large.

[shirlden]

21. This looks like a job for the "evil Duers".

While the Debka report may not be correct, I do think we can assume that Mr. Kay was sent to Iraq to fabricate some evidence. Duers can begin nagging to get this story out and begin to question the veracity of Mr. Kay. Another job for the truth seekers her on DU.
Write letters to your editor and whatever else we can do to begin planting the truth in peoples minds before this "hunk-o-junk" Kay tries to prop up the Shrub with manufactured BS.

:argh:

[Snellius]

22. Makes no difference. Who would believe David Kay.

You can't trust the message if you can't trust the messanger. Besides there's nothing to confirm that Bush knew about any of this beforehand. A program is not an imminent threat.

[Room101]

25. Key words programs, not real WMD.

We went to war for an imminent treat via WMD.

[DemoTex]

28. Programs = software ... Weapons = hardware

Software is bullshit unless it has been processed into the hardware, and that hardware has been tested, proven, and manufactured. There is an old saying that applies here, especially considering the source (Debka): Money talks, shit walks. The "money" here is actual WMDs; the "shit" is specious WMD "programs."

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

29. Oh, GOD NO! Don't attack us with your papers!

Nice to see that David Kay is acting as an impartial investigator for the Bushites.

Boy, those "PAPERS" sure make the case for the immediacy of an Iraqi attack! We should learn from the Iraqis if they can move from ideas on paper to weaponized readiness in 45 minutes!

I'll say it again...DEMOCRATS WE NEED TO HAMMER HOME THE POINT THAT IT WAS THE "IMMINENCE" OF THE THREAT, not evidence of "programs" on paper.

JB

[ozymandius]

64. So were the Iraqis going to catapult these documents at us?

:thumbsup:

I mean --- someone or many people might have been crushed by the weight of these papers falling onto their helpless selves.

Papers??? Ooooh. I am so cared!

[ozymandius]

65. So were the Iraqis going to catapult these documents at us?

:thumbsup:

I mean --- someone or many people might have been crushed by the weight of these papers falling onto their helpless selves.

Papers??? Ooooh. I am so scared!

[Dirty Hippie]

99. Hey man

paper cuts can be nasty!!!

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. Funny how folks like RMan

like to show up around here and drop their little trial balloons and then sneak off again?

Saddam's wet dreams don't = mushroom clouds. I don't care how many children he's fathered. Only Clinton had a dick that powerful.

[RegenerationMan]

40. Sorry had to leave--Lightning storm, had to power down

I think we can assume that MSNBCFOXAOLCNNABCTIME will all cover the Kay Report big-time 24/7 for at least a week. Whether we here at DU think it true or not, the media whores will use the WMD report to cover up that there was no imminent threat--and don't forget they will trumpet over and over and over and over and over that the report says the WMD went to Syria.

At that point, Bush can say "hey, it's a good thing those Italian anti-war activist intelligence agents fooled us with those Niger letters, and we made a mistake going to war. Good thing, hey?"

And Amuricans, looking at the Kay report and Iraqi confessions ad nauseaum, will swallow the whole thing hook line and sinker. That much looks like a certainty. The question is, what are we here at DU and the Dems going to do about all this?

Putting down Kay and saying imminent over and over is just not going to be enough with 3,000 bodies experimented on by some Iraqi Josef Mengele. Think harder, folks!

And all this will come out just when Dean was having a great week.

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. Keep trying to expose the truth

And stay away from quoting sources such as Debka, it only help to spread their propaganda.

[RegenerationMan]

43. Are you saying there will be no Kay Report?

I agree that Debka is not to be fully trusted. But given that we now live in a world where you have to look at the NewsChannel4.com TRAFFIC REPORT to find out that 320,000 people are protesting in midtown Manhattan, I'm glad to find anything that has any information. Then I can at least make up my own mind. Please name another site on the Mideast that has as much uncensored info as Debka and I'll monitor that as well.

Debka has been more accurate than not, after looking at it for over a year and a half--and they are not likely to make up all of this as disinformation as they are saying it will soon be released. Egg on the face in short order--so I think this report is true.

My thread here is not whether the Kay WMD Report is true or whether to trust Debka, it's heads-up, it looks like a train is comin down the track. The imminent threat argument will get run over by that train if it arrives the way I think it will, with the media blaring.

[gulliver]

45. If Kay reports only "programs," it will hurt Bush.

It will just revive the fact that Bush overstated the case for war. The media sees Bush's "shift the goalposts" strategy. This Kay thing is exactly like previous attempts by the Bushies. They announce that devastating evidence will appear in the future in order to stay afloat today.

The lack of an al Qaeda connection is just about to hit. Then will come Bush's delaying the 9/11 report with Saudi connections in order to keep the focus on Iraq.

When Kay's report comes out, if it only has "programs," we can say goodbye to Bush.

[RegenerationMan]

47. Unfortunately, the report details how the WMD went to Syria

See Batch 3: Documents detailing how the WMD was shipped off to Syria. That makes the War on Terrorism a Triple Header and gives Bushco their big excuse. There was an imminent threat--and there still is, they will pontificate. The media will have the shipping manifests maybe and the truck drivers who drove them there to interview (worst case scenario).

What will Dean and Kerry say to that? See, this is more complicated than you might first think...

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!!

[gulliver]

48. Wrong again RM.

This is all a fantasy by Debka aimed at quelling the rising undertoe about to drag little George into the sea. They've already tried the Syria angle. Now they are getting desperate.

[RegenerationMan]

49. I hope you're right!!

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!!

[chomskyite2]

60. RM, give up. Duers wont accept you with 97 posts.

harsh reality. its real democratic.

[gulliver]

61. Has nothing to do with it.

Nothing to say? Just pound the table....

[chomskyite2]

63. you're kidding yourself

du in general puts low post counts under much higher suspicion, and discredits many people who, unfortunately have not spent hours and months on DU

[Trajan]

69. Low post counts ....

and a shady disposition ......

Yeah .... we HATE that ....

and: .. those beady eyes .....

JUST like those ........

[sandnsea]

51. put on your thinking cap

Shipping manifests??? That is the single funniest thing I've ever heard.

Come on, the WMD were shipped off to Syria and our satellites and whatever other technology just missed it?!? These were mobile labs, remember? You can't just move them without them being noticed. We had special ops on the ground before the war started. And, if Bush let these weapons be shipped to Syria, that's another screw up, not the actions of an Administration that's on the ball.

The military took NO ACTION to even attempt to secure ONE SINGLE SITE. Why? Because they had no evidence a weapon actually existed. None. Zero. Zip. You seriously believe they would have left our troops open to attack if they KNEW something?

Have you even read the Dod, State Dept and CIA reports and testimony to Congress? They're online you know.

Shippping manifests, that is so funny.

[Julien Sorel]

62. Israel wants the U.S. to invade Syria next. Debka is a

mouthpiece for Israel. Is it any wonder this kind of garbage would show up on Debka? I'd have been surprised to see anything else.

Kay's report will be a bunch of politicized bullshit slapped together with the sole purpose of helping to cover Bush's ass. And Americans will buy it, because it's what they want to hear.

[kainah]

59. Ask people if they would have gone to war over DOCUMENTS?

We have to keep focused on the fact that * took us into an unprecedented, preemptive war. Americans, even a lot of 'muricans, were disturbed by that. They wanted proof. He gave them proof -- in frightening numbers of WEAPONS and connections to terrorists. Remember what the debate was and don't let him shift it. Do the ends justify the means? If it was legitimate to go into Iraq simply to liberate the Iraqis, why isn't it right to go into Liberia to liberate the Liberians? People would like to believe that this wasn't about the weapons but when you ask if these other excuses justify other wars, they know it doesn't.

Also, remind people that many of these mass graves resulted from the Shi'a uprising that we encouraged and then refused to support and that the person responsible for that was George H. W. Bush.

And just keep talking to people! The media is not going to do it and the right-wingers sure aren't shy about shoving their flags in our face. But we are shy about telling them our beliefs. That has to change before anything else does. If there's no public debate, it is at least in part our fault for not engaging the debate.

[hayu_lol]

32. 7 1/2 Miles of papers...all without dates...

Kay, like so many Bush appointees, has no business in the business for which he was selected. Kay has a BA from Univ. Of Texas, Austin, and a MA/Phd from Columbia. Field of study: International Affairs.

Another bushit flake.

[Code_Name_D]

34. Oragomi evdince

If you fold all of that paper work is a perticular way, it can sure look like a nuckler bomb,

[MasonJar]

36. Report

To me that seems hardly credible since the Democrats are calling for its release; they (for example, Bob Graham) know exactly what's in the report. They investigated it.

[Wonder]

37. that is true about debka

I use to check them out regularly and they did seem to be ahead of things. On the other hand, they are also guilty of disinformation. I guess the question that comes to mind is which party best serves the current Israeli General's.

Depending on how one answers that question can help determine whether this is worthy info or just disinformation to undermine a change in party here in the state.

[Gloria]

38. With all our fancy satellite technology, why didn't we see all this

shuffling off to Syria? And if it's hidden in Syria, how come our fancy toys aren't picking it up???

Or did all this stuff go out with the art work in truck convoys to Jordan?

It's a load of crap.

[w4rma]

39. Debka was utterly wrong during the invasion (very politicized)

And this looks like more of the same hype they put out during the war. *And* Bush/Blair still lied and exagerated about nearly everything to get their invasion. *And* the invasion has *still* done nothing positive for Iraq or the Middle East. What Bush is doing is impeachable.


There is really on one source of reliable information on this war - and it's coming from Russian spies

Monday April 7, 2003
The Guardian

Every day, as the war rages, there are winners and losers. Not just on the battlefield, but in the stock market. The indexes and the exchange rates swing wildly as euphoric Pentagon briefings ("Basra is Ours!", "Victory in Days!") turn sour.

The Dow Jones is 200 up on today's headlines, 200 down on tomorrow's. Currencies soar and crash with every Qatar press briefing. Truth is not the first casualty of current war reporting, it's the daily casualty. Place your stock-market bets according to CNN and you'll be broke in a week.
...
Russia, superpower that it was, still has spy satellites, state-of-the-art interception technology and (unlike the CIA) men on the ground. The beauty of GRU is that it does not (like the CIA) report directly to the leadership but to the Russian ministry of defence. In its wisdom, it makes its analyses publicly available. These are digested as daily bulletins on www.iraqwar.ru.

The Russians have a contrarian view on the current conflict. What was it Kissinger said about the Iran-Iraq war - "Ideally we'd like both sides to lose"? That's what the Kremlin thinks about Operation Free Iraq.

From its neutral stance, GRU offers detailed, top-grade, and wholly unspun analysis. The bulletins are in Russian (bilingualism is suddenly in demand on Wall Street). You can get English translations a day later on Venik's Aviation website (www.aeronautics.ru).
...
Pity Baghdad

There are other sources of high-grade intelligence available to the trader wanting to be two days' head-up on the opposition. You can buy bootlegged Chinese intelligence reports in Hong Kong (apparently the Chinese have bought that downed Apache helicopter the Iraqis were dancing on) and Israeli analysis in Tel Aviv.

But why waste money when the Russians are giving away the best stuff free? Invest intelligently and get rich.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,931084,00.html

[BelgianMadCow]

86. thanks for the links, + english site

Instead of on www.aeronautics.ru you can also find the english version of www.iraqwar.ru at http://www.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en

:-)

[Minstrel Boy]

50. Debka is worth reading only to know

what Israeli intelligence wants us to think.

[blm]

52. The Kay report was ALWAYS going to come out in Bush's favor.

Kay has been a BFEE point man for years. Anyone who doubted it is a fool with no idea what the BFEE can and WILL do.

[Ress1]

53. This might explain

why Sen. Nelson seemed so convinced there would be proof after he and others were briefed by Kay the other day. All we can do is wait to see what the boys roll out.

[jpak]

54. The BFEE forged the Niger uranium documents

What is to stop them from forging WMD "program documents"

ChimpCo must be held to the same standard as Saddam Hussein.

Produce the WMD - or else.

[neuvocat]

56. Let's assume this was actually true

if those WMD's have been "found", there is too much speculation to meet the findings to begin with. Another thing is that it would only prove that U.S. troops were killed over something that could have been peacefully resolved by the U.N. weapons inspectors.

Bush isn't squirming out of this and you know Graham won't let him off the hook.

[dennis4868]

57. I think it is safe to say that....

if Kay does not find anything he is NOT going to report the truth. And that is probably why they need more time to disclose their "findings." They need more time to make stuff up. Problem is that the media whores and the democratic leaders in the house and senate will all fall for it like they did before the war. I think we are screwed. Kay will come up with videotapes of Iraqis (probably Iraqis who were willing to lie to the camera for some good money), documents, and other crap to convince the ignorant public and spineless democrats that Sadaam was indeed a threat to our country and could have knocked us into ablivion in 45 minutes if he wanted to (by the way, if that was the case why didn't Sadaam do it to us a long time ago?).

So how do we (dems with a spine and who do not trust anything that comes from this White House) deal with all of this when the Kay report comes out. It really worries me.

[gulliver]

58. It's sheer genius, but it won't work.

This is a bluff on top of a switcheroo. "You people better stop saying that we lied (exaggerated, or were incompetent) when we said that there were WMDs. Any day now, your going to see a report that there were 'weapons programs'. You'll look like fools."

It's flim flam.

If the Kay report comes out and says that Saddam had WMD programs that he was trying to hide from inspectors, the Bushies are screwed. It will finally prove that Iraq had no WMDs, and that's all. It will be the coup de grace on the Bushie's "lies and exaggeration program." They will crow about the weapons programs, and the media will just replay the quotes of Bush and Cheney saying Saddam had actual weapons -- tons and tons of them.

Bush will try to say the weapons were smuggled out to Syria, but that's patently ridiculous on its face. If there were proof that the weapons were smuggled into Syria, um, we would be shoving it right in the U.N.'s face at this very moment, not waiting for Kay's final report. The U.S. would be calling for an immediate turnover of said weapons from Syria. To do otherwise would be to leave the (bullshit, non-existent) weapons in Syria. It's a GD bluff, and another irresponsible kiddies-playing-with-grown-up-stuff disgrace from the Bushies.

[goforit]

66. Even Bush's die hard supporters will know it is staged/ Pathetic!

Now just to let you know.....Debka as far I've been able
to see has been right 50% of the time.

Just a toss of the coin.(I've been reading them for 2 years)

They have been a great PR tabloid for Sharon and his croanies
And they will manipulate everything to make Bush look good!

Whether or not there is evidence at this point in time,
still does not grant the President full power to go to WAR
on just hearsay!

Bush willNEVER be able to regain the trust of Americans!!

And given the lack of resistence from Saddam,it
shows that he was NEVER a threat to the US or the rest of the World.

[Trajan]

70. The 'Imminent Threat'

We were exposed to the death of 7.5 miles of paper cuts .....

and ... and .... and ....

They had 500,000 gallons of LEMON JUICE too! ! ! .....

The BASTARDS ! .....

No WONDER the PNAC saved us from this horrible menace ........

[rman]

71. Documents, Programs of Mass Destruction

but no Weapons thereoff.

[Shanty Oilish]

72. Do we stand on the head of this pin?

People don't care what we find in Iraq, what we don't. They only care about what we do next. Are we going to invade NK/Iran/Cuba/Liberia/Saudi Arabia/Syria? Are we on a roll?

People either want to roll, or they don't. And since 9/11, an awful lot of them do.

[Bragi]

73. Don't panic...

When this comes out, yes, the initial uncritical media reports will favour Bush, especially in the mainstream US media, and there may well be an immediate spike in public opinion saying that he didn't lie.

After this, public analysis of the evidence will take place, and eventually any gaps between the stated reasons for war, and the evidence in the Kay dossier, will start to appear in the (mostly-international) media, and ultimately be reflected in the mainstream US media.

It is important to remember that there is a lot of independent expertise in independent institutes, in academia, and in places like the UN, which makes it hard, if not impossible, for Bush to fabricate WMD evidence out of thin air.

This is why they haven't planted evidence so far, and I think the restraining effect of independent experts (especially at the UN) will continue to play a positive role in preventing Bush from digging out from his lies.

Anyway, that's how I see it. The Kay report may muddy the waters for a while, but ultimately, unless it offers slam-dunk credible evidence (unlikely), it won't undo the perception that Bush was dishonest in the reasons he gave for invading Iraq.

Given the hubris and dishonesty of the administration, there's even the possibility that there will be more verifiable lies in the dossier (as opposed to exaggerations, spin, etc.) and that these will themselves will add to the erosion of confidence in Bush.

- b

[skip fox]

77. I'm with ya, Bragi

but I'm almost certain there will NOT be a 'slam dunk' (credible evidence of WMDs)
or we would have seen it already.

This administration was so desparate they called the 2 trailers WMDs (Bush in a European
speech) even after experts said they were prob. for the production of hydrogen, and then
they grab reporters in Iraq to make them look at a few items buried beneath a rose bush.
Given this level of desperation, can you imagine them finding a real smoking gun (credible
evidence) and simply sitting on it? Boy, I can't.

And I don't believe they will find anything either, for this reason: if there were WMDs, some
Iraqis would already have pointed them out. Hell, the captives are turning on Ba'ath party
members &c. Why would they keep quiet when offered incentives like $ and promise not
to prosecute. (We are so desparate, that I know we've made such offers--prob. save haven
for them and family &c.)

So . . . I don't think we'll even have to worry about the worst case that you put forward. But, like
you say, even then there will only short term harm to Dems while the evidence is weighted in
the public mind.

Good post. Bragi, and welcome to DU :toast:

[ewagner]

88. another point

These guys have a tendency to screw up almost everything they touch. I don't think Kay and crew are much different. I'm counting on a couple of things: First they will lie through their teeth;and, Second, they will lie so badly that a third grader will be able to read through it.

Hope I'm right.

[saskatoon]

85. Anyway, that's how I see it. The Kay report may muddy the waters for a whi

You people must know American voters that I don't.I sometimes think you are living in a dream world. You are talking about people like yourselves who READ and analyze and THINK. Don't you realize how damn dumb and unknowlegeable most voters are! I live in a different world than you. The people I know, after they have voted---hey, that's their civic duty ! stick on their little lables that proclaim "I Voted" AND they don't know shit from apple butter. They hear on tv the silly patter praising Bush and listen to their Electronic preachers and they go out there and do their civic duty and VOTE for every damn asshole on the ballot. Jeez!

[Zero Gravitas]

74. So What?

Iraq had a WMD program in the 80s and maybe early 90s (we knew this already) all this "evidence" does not justify Bush*'s war. There were no WMD stockpiles in 2003 and no imminent threat to the US.

[MattNC]

75. oh please

All of the military and intelligence resources we had focused on Iraq, we should've been able to easily see any 'secret' weapons transfer from Iraq to Syria. Gimme a break.

[radwriter0555]

76. PLEASE! Debka as CREDIBLE??? They reported the CHINESE ARMY was assisting

with the afghanistan resistance to the US invasion.

Give me a freaking break.

[Snellius]

79. Where did this pinhead headline come from?

"Devastating to Dems"? You wish.

[janx]

89. Journalists try to get cute with language these days. Some days

I literally can't understand what I'm reading because it's so bad that I get sidetracked by that ridiculous stuff. The major news mags are the worst when it comes to the jargon.

[Dr Fate]

82. We supposedly had "evidence" and "documents" before the war.

At this point we should have physical possesion of the "tons" of weapons that supposedly threatened our lives.

NO SALE.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

90. didn'rt Scott Ritter say that Kay was spying for the US and

the reason for the resistance from Iraq towards UN Weapons Inspectors?
can someone ...perhaps Will Pitt clarify this for me?

[Tinoire]

93. David Kay? The same man who ASSURED us the WMDs were there?

'Giving the world the bird'

Former weapons inspector David Kay, who is critical of the new round of searches, said Iraq has made almost two dozen "full and final" declarations over the years and that all were bogus. He doesn't expect anything new this weekend.

"If the document is only filled with stuff that was found ... before, if it doesn't acknowledge any activity over the past four years, I don't even see the need for further inspections," Kay said. "If the statement is, as I suspect it will be, fundamentally giving the world the bird, then the only solution is military action to remove Saddam."

Originally published on December 5, 2002
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/40949p-38611c.html

[Tinoire]

94. How beautifully convenient!

David Kay...
OSP (Wofowitz's own special little intelligence cell)...
Debka breaks the story...

Hmmmmm..... :thinking:


Kay, who has been named special adviser for strategy regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs, will be in charge of refining the overall U.S. search for banned weapons, according to a CIA press release. The Defense Department’s Iraq Survey Group, which will soon take over the search, will provide direct support to Kay, the CIA said.

“David Kay’s experience and background make him the ideal person for this new role,” Tenet said in a statement. “His understanding of the history of the Iraqi programs and knowledge of past Iraqi efforts to hide WMD will be of inestimable help in determining the current status of Saddam Hussein’s illicit weapons,” he added (CIA release, June 11).
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/40949p-38611c.html


For many critics, the primary problem with the prewar assessments of the Iraqi threat was that the administration slighted more-conservative and more-nuanced intelligence reports on Iraq from the CIA, while relying too heavily on more-aggressive and more-pessimistic intelligence provided by a small and secretive unit that the Pentagon set up in late 2001 called the Office of Special Plans. The real mission of OSP, critics allege, was to amass intelligence to help administration hard-liners make their case that the threat posed by Iraq was imminent.

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/thisweek/2003_6_12_womd.html

Democratic congressman David Obey, who is investigating the OSP, said: "That office was charged with collecting, vetting and disseminating intelligence completely outside of the normal intelligence apparatus. In fact, it appears that information collected by this office was in some instances not even shared with established intelligence agencies and in numerous instances was passed on to the national security council and the president without having been vetted with anyone other than political appointees."

The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4714031,00.html

And now Debka, Sharon's mouthpiece for disinformation prints this?

Hmmmmm... Couldn't they at least have gotten the Washington Post to do a "World Exlcusive" or something a wee, wee bit less insulting?

How gullible do we look? :eyes:

[Chomskyite]

96. Another thing debka has said recently

Russia was assisting Iraq in its construction of WMD facilities. Looks like that one proved untrue.

I'd like to see a list of predictions debka has made over the years so we can evaluate their batting average.

[Chomskyite]

97. Take a look at this piece of crap debka put up in December!

Here's the kind of thing that should give anyone pause before they read ANY debka report.

This is from http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=217

Thursday, December 5, the White House declared it already had “solid evidence” that Iraq does indeed have weapons of mass destruction. Where did that evidence come from?

DEBKA-Net-Weekly (No. 88, Dec. 6) called on its military sources to divulge the secret, independent inspection project launched by the United States well before the UN Security Council sent its inspectors to Iraq. To subscribe to DNW click HERE .

This project is in the hands of a special multinational task force made up of special elite units and armed with combat helicopters and aircraft, spy-planes and satellites. Unlike the Blix outfit, which is based in Baghdad, the alternative investigators are fanned out across the country. One well-placed source disclosed: “Our men in the field know where 90 percent of Saddam’s missiles and unconventional weapons systems are located, even the mobile ones that are moved from place to place every hour. We are keeping them under tight, on-site observation because when the war begins we want to be there before Saddam orders his men to hit the triggers.”

[Chomskyite]

98. More old debka malarky

Apparently they thought Saddam had some kind of supergun that could launch containers of goo at our spy satellites. Read up and laugh:

Saddam Dusts off His Old Super Gun

January 9, 2002, 3:39 PM (GMT+02:00)

Saddam’s super-cannon of pre-Gulf War fame is making a comeback. In its newly adapted form, the fabled monster gun is designed to fire nuclear, chemical and biological shells at US military targets in the Gulf, Middle East, Red Sea and Mediterranean, as well as targeting Kuwait, Bahrain, Turkey and Israel. This was revealed by DEBKA-Net-Weekly in its last week’s issue.

In its original form, the gun was capable of firing a warhead at Tehran or Tel Aviv, having a range of 1,500 miles - or more, if boosted by a rocket.

<snip>

But Saddam never gave up his grandiose plans for the super gun. One was to blast into orbit the military satellites he was building just before the 1991 Gulf War. In 1992 and 1995, experiments were made to launch spacecraft that would collide with enemy satellites making surveillance passes over Iraqi territory. On impact, the spacecraft would explode and spray the satellites with an adhesive substance that would put their cameras and surveillance equipment out of action.

Touting his super gun, Saddam once boasted a missile could be launched only once but a cannon could be used repeatedly to fire projectiles.

US and Israeli intelligence were taken aback to discover that not one, but three or four super guns, have just turned up in Iraq’s arsenal – advanced and more effective versions of Bull’s invention. It comes in two models, both hidden in the underground city Iraq has build as a hideaway for its government, top officials and strategic utilities in case of war.

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=123

I think debka is the Israeli National Enquirer for people who fantasize about being in Mossad.

[The Stranger]

101. Bomb us with "seven and a half miles of documents"?

Read the words he spoke to his people and note the quantities that were included:

The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin; enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. He's not accounted for these materials. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them. U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb.

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/bushtext_012803.html

Text: Bush's 2003 State of the Union Address
eMediaMillWorks
Tuesday, January 28, 2003