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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:52 AM
Original message
St Paul's Cathedral closed over protest
Source: The Independent

St Paul's Cathedral has been forced to close its doors to the public because of the anti-capitalist protest taking place outside.

The Dean of St Paul's, the Rev Graeme Knowles, said the decision to close the cathedral was made with "heavy hearts".

He said the decision was taken after church officials received a report by health and safety officials.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/st-pauls-cathedral-closed-over-protest-2374036.html
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. In what way are the protests threatening health and safety such that a Cathedral would need to close
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 09:11 AM by GreenPartyVoter
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Celefin Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Just cite a 'health and safety official' in the UK
...and you'll get away with almost anything.
Truly amazing.

Nice way of making the protesters unpopular.
Protesters forcing Cathedral shut due to health and safety concerns = bad guys.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. religion doesn't hold up to strong scrutiny which would affect it's health?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. In this case, it looks like a Fire Concern i.e. Safety Concern
The Term "Health and Safety" is a term of art within the law to cover anything from Fire dangers to disease. It is a catch all. In this case the concern seems to be to many stoves in the tents, and the fear is that a tent will catch on fire, spread to the other tents and then to the Cathedral.

I am sorry, the protesters should NOT be using any type of stoves or other form of heat. I use to be in the National Guard and when we went out on maneuvers, even in winter, it was rare to have any source of heat other then our sleeping bags. This was true even in sub freezing temperatures. We were expected to live in our Shelter halves even in sub freezing weather (And while winter is coming, it has NOT yet hit England).

Now, when I was in the Field Artillery we tended to have a tent with heaters, but when I was in the Infantry, it was shelter halves and sleeping bags. Now, we did use heaters, but only for brief periods of times (We had to carry the fuel, which we did NOT want to carry to far or to much). I had a small portable peak one camp light, that gave off a lot of heat. I suspect many of these protesters are using similar devices, but in tents right next to each other which is a recipe for disaster,

Sorry, what the protesters need to do is get rid of every heating device they have, eat their food cold (or have it brought in from someplace else). The Generators need to go, live without artificial light, it is a possible through much more difficult in an urban area like London then in Rural areas like when I did National Guard Training (i.e. in rural areas bright lights are rare and far apart, in urban areas, everything tends to have Artificial lighting, which means your eyes have a difficult time adjusting when it comes to NOT using artificial lighting yourself).

If all of the heat and lighting sources were removed, so would most of the "Health and Safety" Hazards. Yes, heat makes life a lot nicer in winter, but they are PROTESTING and as PROTESTERS they have to give up on certain comforts, which in this case means artificial lighting and heating.

I would give the same advice to the people occupying Wall Street, NO Stoves, No gasoline Lanterns, no Generators. Do NOT give the Police grounds to declare your protest area a "Hazard". Keep in Clean (And this means assigning people to clean up the area, and to require EVERYONE to keep the area clean, as My Father use to say when we were done picnicking or camping in an area, he wanted the area CLEANER then when we started the Picnic or Camping activity. Talk to the Police and see if they have any guidelines as to how close the tents can be, most will have no guidelines, but some will, and if given any guidelines that are reasonable, follow those guidelines. Try to import in Porta-potties to take care of Human waste, and have them change out regularly (and in this regard twice as often as recommend and have twice the number of such units as recommended by the supplier).

Yes, what I am recommending requires some adjustments, for example internet service would be minimized do to a lack of electricity etc,

Now, I do not mean you have to cut out ALL stoves, you may want to set up one area where such stoves can be used. This should be away from anything that can catch on fire i.e. a metal table brought in to hold a camping stove so everyone can have a hot breakfast for example. You want to be able to show that such an area is while outside any chance of catching ANYTHING on fire. Have a common Breakfast at about 8:00 am, done by 9:00 am, and if people miss it they get no hot meal. Other meals can be done similarly, but you want to be able to show that ALL fire sources are within one area and that area is contain and unlikely to catch anything on fire (And have Fire Extinguisher on hand to put out nay fire that does occur outside of the Cooking units).

As to Human Waste, have everyone go elsewhere to take a shit or a piss, do NOT permit anyone to do either out in public and do NOT permit anyone to depose of either other then in proper sewerage system (i.e. down a public rest room toilet, even if that means someone has to carry a bucket of piss and shit two or three times a day to the nearest toilet one can dump it into, more often if needed). This paragraph is presuming porta-potties are not available or usable at the site being occupied. Do NOT look like you care less of the health of others given your desire to protest, look like you do care and make the extra effort even if that means people have to do things they normally do not (Like carrying a bucket of shit down the street).

This is just some of the problems any long term occupation must face, and face them as soon as possible, let the existence of such problems provides an excuse to close down the protest. If the protesters do not, then the lack of care of these items will lead to an expulsion order on the grounds the protest is a danger to the "Health and Safety" of the protesters themselves AND the people and buildings around the area of protest.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. Don't get this 'anti-capitalist' crap; surely not stated by Rev Knowles.
He was more than gracious and open to the peaceful protest a few days ago.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. i just google mapped street view of st paul's
i can see why there could be a problem if the protesters did`t have their shit together. from what i read they haven`t.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm please that you checked
Yes - the issue concerns the event , albeit unlikely , of something untoward happening with anything up to 3000 people in the church quite aside from their duty of care especially to tourists on Saturdays and during the week.

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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. A commenter to the story said That's odd. He was just there & ppl were streaming into
the side entrance and the main entrance was unoccupied "except by the usual mob of tourists sitting on the steps."

Another commenter says it costs money to go into St. Paul's, £14.50. What do you bet it doesn't stay closed for long?
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. One would have thought they should have closed their doors
When we discovered the pedophiles gone wild with the catholic church, and the pope covering up for them.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. For the umteenth time
St Paul's is Anglican : not Catholic.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 04:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. Talks due on St Paul's and protest closure decision
Senior staff at St Paul's Cathedral are expected to meet City of London Corporation (CLC) officials later over the decision to close it - the first time since World War II.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15413255

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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. Statement from Canon Giles Fraser
The Revd Canon Dr Giles Fraser, Chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral, issued the following statement today (Saturday 22 October 2011)

"I remain firmly supportive of the right of people peacefully to protest. But given the strong advice that we have received that the camp is making the cathedral and its occupants unsafe then this right has to be balanced against other rights and responsibilities too. The Christian gospel is profoundly committed to the needs of the poor and the dispossessed. Financial justice is a gospel imperative. Those who are claiming the decision to close the cathedral has been made for commercial reasons are talking complete nonsense."

http://www.stpauls.co.uk/News-Press/Latest-News/Statement-from-Canon-Giles-Fraser
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. They would have shut the door on Jesus and his band of protesters too.
Jesus would have fit in with OWS - rich man, camel, eye of a needle.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Jerusalem
Edited on Sun Oct-23-11 09:56 AM by dipsydoodle
didn't have the City of London to contend with - the City / Square mile has its own rules and regulations within Greater London.

Its up to the church whether or not its open as a church but it may be up to the City of London as to whether they can remain there. The area they are occupying is joint St Paul's Cathederal and the City.

The protesters are well aware of that but stick to just blaming the church.

An impasse between St Paul's Cathedral and the protest camp that has spent eight days at its walls remains deadlocked, with activists saying they will not consider church officials' request for them to move elsewhere until they receive a fuller explanation as to why this is necessary.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/23/occupy-protesters-st-pauls-cathedral
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. So the church won't go against the money changers
No surprise.

Sometimes churches should stand up for the poor even if it annoys the rich. It's supposed to be what their founder would have done.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Will you try reading the posts that you are replying to??
From .13
> "I remain firmly supportive of the right of people peacefully to protest. ...
> The Christian gospel is profoundly committed to the needs of the poor and
> the dispossessed. Financial justice is a gospel imperative. Those who are
> claiming the decision to close the cathedral has been made for commercial
> reasons are talking complete nonsense."

He's talking about you.

The church IS standing up for the poor but, sad though it may be, they
do NOT have total control over the area where the protesters are staying
and so can NOT enforce the church's stated position in support of the
protesters.

There are plenty of reasons to have a go at different churches around the
world but in this particular case, you are wrong.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It doesn't sound like the church is trying too hard to support the protesters
"On a usual Sunday the 400-year-old London landmark would be full of worshipers and visitors. But the doors have been bolted since Friday evening when the dean, the Right Reverend Graeme Knowles, announced that the cathedral would remain shut until further notice because the 200 or so tents and marquees along its western edge posed a fire and safety risk."

"He said: "I remain firmly supportive of the right of people peacefully to protest. But given the strong advice that we have received that the camp is making the cathedral and its occupants unsafe then this right has to be balanced against other rights and responsibilities too.""

"The protesters are deeply reluctant, strongly hinting that they believe the Corporation of London, which governs the City district, has joined financial institutions to place at least implicit pressure on St Paul's to take action. The Occupy the London Stock Exchange movement says it has spoken to both the fire service and local health and safety officials and has been told there are no safety issues."


It strikes me that the church is using an over emphasis on safety to get rid of some inconvenient protesters. They sound pretty cozy with the status quo here.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-25-11 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. kr
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