Executioner wore gold ring - forbidden by Islam

[Moloch]

May 13, 2004— Crucial clues into the masked men seen in the videotaped beheading of American Nicholas Berg may come from the tape itself, as well as Berg's body, federal investigators involved in the case say. After analyzing the audio of the tape, the CIA has concluded with "high probability" that the masked speaker, who also carried out the beheading, is Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the top al Qaeda figure in Iraq. Zarqawi is also believed to be behind a wave of suicide bombings in Iraq against American targets.

The video of the killing, which President Bush has called a "brutal execution," was posted on an al Qaeda-linked Web site Tuesday, along with a verbal message from five armed, masked militants, who said the execution was in response to the abuses of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.

...

A close examination of the tape shows none of the five masked men is wearing gloves, so federal officials are trying to determine if there are any tell-tale tattoos on their hands. One of the clues the FBI and CIA is studying is the large gold ring Zarqawi is wearing on his right hand, giving off a glare several times during the six-minute tape.

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9529&TagID=2

[Dookus]

1. really?

[tuckessee]

5. How can you be positive....

...that's bin Laden?

Please don't say you believe it is just because the CIA and Rummy say it's so.

[oldhat]

7. My God.

My God. Nothing gets past you.

[Dookus]

14. because I have a sneaking suspicion

that the CIA, if they were intent on creating a double for bin Laden, would probably at some point in the process notice whether or not he wears a ring.

[stickdog]

39. "How can he be positive that ring isn't silver?" would be my first

question.

"What makes him think it's Bin Laden?" would be my second.

[Don_G]

2. Who Sez?

A marriage ring is a "western custom" and...given the control of the Government, Media and Billions that Dimbo has invested in the US....

[Emillereid]

3. I read somewhere that Zarqawi's is supposed to wear

a prosthetic and that the film shows no evidence of this.

[exDinosoar]

4. I'm sure murder beheading with a dull knife is also forbidden by Islam

I fail to see why anyone would focus on a ring while a young innocent man was tortured and murdered in a horrible manner.

[Disturbed]

6. Duh!

Maybe Berg wasn't decapitated while he was alive?
Maybe the guy who decapitated a dead person isn't who the CIA says he is?

[forgethell]

19. Maybe Berg wasn't decapitated while he was alive?

So? He was still killed.

[crossroads]

9. Your first post! Welcome to DU!

IMO the ring could be a clue if in Islamic law it is forbidden to wear it. Notice everything!

[ant]

12. are all rings forbidden

or just wedding rings? I don't know we should assume this is a wedding ring.

Either way, I don't think this proves the murderers are not muslim. Wasn't one of the hijackers a big strip bar fan? As someone else pointed out, isn't the murder itself against Islam? And, of course, doesn't Bush claim to be a Christian?

Just because a religion has certain rules doesn't mean people won't pick and choose whether or not to follow them. This might help investigators find the killers but it does not, on its own, rule out a muslim person.

[crossroads]

29. Wasn't sure about that, so I Googled this...

``3. It is forbidden for Muslim men to wear natural silk and gold. The wearing of a ring made of gold is forbidden for men, However, it is lawful for women. The prophet illustrated this to us through many ahadith, as in the one reported by Imam Abu-Dawood and Annesa'i, from Ali said: "One time I saw the prophet (S.A.W.) taking silk in his right hand and gold in his left and said: "These two are forbidden to the males of my ummah (or nation)"."

http://www.islam1.org/khutub/M_Perspective_W_Life_3.htm

i haven't seen the video yet, but intend to as all the talk about it has desensitized it a bit for me.

[louis-t]

63. Maybe OBL is really a woman.

<snicker.>

[ant]

10. the answer is in the article

A close examination of the tape shows none of the five masked men is wearing gloves, so federal officials are trying to determine if there are any tell-tale tattoos on their hands. One of the clues the FBI and CIA is studying is the large gold ring Zarqawi is wearing on his right hand, giving off a glare several times during the six-minute tape.

People are focusing on the ring because it might give a clue as to who did this.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

11. When you say tortured & murdered do you mean Berg or US prison detainees?

Just want to make sure I understand which set of atrocities you are referring to. ;)

JB

[vajraroshana]

15. It was unbelievably horrible, brutal and senseless

Focusing on the odd details that don't add up is one way of both coping with the horror and honoring this poor young man's death.

He and his family deserve to have the tough questions asked, even if they seem trivial.

[Sequoia]

58. Welcome!

[ant]

8. this doesn't make sense

I posted this elsewhere, but I'll repeat:

the CIA has concluded with "high probability" that the masked speaker, who also carried out the beheading, is Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the top al Qaeda figure in Iraq. Zarqawi is also believed to be behind a wave of suicide bombings in Iraq against American targets.

This is an incredibly sloppy analysis, and I would be surprised if this is actually what the CIA concluded. We all know the audio/video are really out of synch. What's more, the people are wearing masks, so there's no way to know whether the words we are hearing are actually coming from any of them. We assume we know who the speaker is because we see someone who appears to be reading from a piece of paper.

The fact that the voice belongs to Zarqawi does not prove that he is in the video. It only proves that we are hearing his voice. Again, I would think that the fact that the audio/video are so out of synch would raise some flags for whatever analysts are on the case. Maybe they've looked at this and determined it was meaningless; maybe they looked at it and are playing along with Zarqawi to hide what they know.

If neither of those scenarios applies, though, here's my own theory: Zarqawi's a wanted man, and I would guess it's difficult for him to get around. So he records his voice for these guys and they tape the murder to fit the audio. They did a lousy job editing/matching the two up, though. As for motive, I could see how they would want to give Zarqawi credit for this in that it's symbolic and raises his status, etc.

Just a theory. While at this point I do not believe this is a US conspiracy - mostly because I don't see a motive and, quite frankly, I would hope US conspirators have better audio/visual tech skills than what's shown in that tape - I do think there are some inconsistencies in the video that need to be explained.

[TroglodyteScholar]

20. You don't see a motive?

Do you recall what was on the front page of every newspaper in the 10 days prior to the decapitation? Do you suppose it may benefit the Bush administration to have a story that tops the prison abuse scandal in brutality and senselessness?

[ant]

24. and this was the best they could come up with?

Executing a man with an anti-war family in retaliation for the abuse?

Whoever came up with that bright idea should be fired ASAP. It's ridiculous. And, more importantly, it not only failed to bury the scandal, it highlighted its consequences and how bad things actually are in Iraq. You really think the admin wanted that?

If they wanted to divert attention they would've pulled some totally unrelated stunt rather than something that explicitly ties itself to the scandal they're trying to bury. As it is, they gave the public a brutal awakening to the consequences of current US policies and the media got its "fallout to the prison scandal" angle. At the very least they could've had the killers say, "this has nothing to do with the scandal, we are killing Berg because he is free and we hate freedom!"

No, the "bury the prison scandal" motive doesn't make any sense.

[mallard]

Re: Doesn't make any sense...

... for those who don't want it to - only.

berg was clearly caught up in dome serious disputes if he had been busted and jailed. The details on what all went down with that remain unknown.

A Chilean reporter on location at the time claims Nick was removed from police custody by US forces. The government denies this and claims they tried to help him get the heck out of Iraq, indicating there WAS contact after his release from police custody.

So did Nick just wander over to the Green Zone for that to happen, or may he have bumped into coalition 'reps' at a casual sidewalk cafe? Supposedly, there was an official offer of safe transit (which he declined on).

His father DID file a lawsuit against the government in early April. That's a fact.

He WAS wearing an orange jumpsuit in the execution video. That's the standard US prisoner uniform, no?


So, to say the timing of this media stunt - in the wake of an all-time-hardest-core exposure of quasi-satanic (especially for Muslims) ritual abuse practice by uniformed US soldiers - "doesn't make any sense" is simply irrational, mate.

The event has mangaged (to a degree) to realign the national pro-war focus - to give that side 'breathing room' in terms of renewed morality, and it happens when it's never been more needed (for them) right on cue.

If it made "no sense" (as you say) THEN it would be right to point out how it makes no sense, but since it makes SO MUCH SENSE, the fixers get called in pronto to deny the light of day, anyway. It's about the best they can come up with - blind (loyalist) denial.

Who do you work for?

[ant]

49. did you even read my posts?

berg was clearly caught up in dome serious disputes if he had been busted and jailed.

And yet we know that many of the Iraqi prisoners were innocent. Being arrested in Iraq these days does not mean you are caught up in some serious disputes. More likely than not it probably just means you were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

The government denies this and claims they tried to help him get the heck out of Iraq, indicating there WAS contact after his release from police custody.

Again, doesn't follow. They could've offered him help the day they released him. Their claim that they offered help does not prove that they had contact with him after his release, unless they're saying the offer was made later. Even then, a phone call or meeting to offer help does not actually point to anything - it's merely a fact that at this point tells us nothing.

He WAS wearing an orange jumpsuit in the execution video. That's the standard US prisoner uniform, no?

It's also a standard halloween constume that you can buy online. The US does not have the world's only supply of orange jumpsuits.

So, to say the timing of this media stunt - in the wake of an all-time-hardest-core exposure of quasi-satanic (especially for Muslims) ritual abuse practice by uniformed US soldiers - "doesn't make any sense" is simply irrational, mate.

Except that's not at all what I said. In fact, the original post where I used that phrase quite explicitly drew attention to inconsistencies.

In this second post, I said that claiming the US' motive in staging this stunt was to draw attention away from the prisoner abuse scandal doesn't make any sense. The event itself is tied to the prison abuse scandal. How do you try to bury a story by expanding on it and giving it new dimensions and angles? That's just absurd. If they wanted to bury the story then a big plane crash or some big bombing in Saudi Arabia or Israel would've been waaaaay more obvious and effective.

The event has mangaged (to a degree) to realign the national pro-war focus - to give that side 'breathing room' in terms of renewed morality, and it happens when it's never been more needed (for them) right on cue.

That's not true at all. The hard-core on both sides have not changed their view of this war, and the group in the center is seeing a war spin out of control. Look at the polls. Bush's approval is dropping, support for the war is dropping, etc.

If it made "no sense" (as you say) THEN it would be right to point out how it makes no sense, but since it makes SO MUCH SENSE, the fixers get called in pronto to deny the light of day, anyway. It's about the best they can come up with - blind (loyalist) denial.

Oh please. Not only have you completely misunderstood/misrepresented my original post - basically what it was that I said made no sense - but you've made a bunch of assertions that do not follow from the claims you give to back them up. Just because you know the US made Berg an offer of assistance does not mean you know when that offer was made. Just because Berg was picked up in Iraq does not mean he was actually guilty of anything. And I'm completely confused by this obsession people have with the orange jumpsuit - as if the US government is the only entity on earth with access to orange jumsuits!

Again, all I said in my post was that the motive given for the US staging this - that they were trying to bury the prison scandal - doesn't make sense. So far I have yet to see any sort of clear motive at all. Then fact is Berg's murder hurt the admin. They would be complete political idiots to stage this themselves.

[Sterling]

80. Just addressing your first point

that is all I have time for right this second.
I don't think they are rounding up westerners the way they are Iraqis and other Muslims. Do you. I have many friends who have been there since the war and none of them were hassled by any authorities.

[ant]

84. on that first point

I don't think they are rounding up westerners the way they are Iraqis and other Muslims. Do you.

Depends on who the westerners are with and what sort of documentation they have. Berg himself told friends that he believed he had been picked up by Iraqi police (before being handed over to the US) because he had a Jewish last name and an Israeli stamp on his passport. source

Again, the mere fact that he was picked up does not prove he was guilty of anything or involved in anything questionable. Reports from the people who saw him last do not suggest he was worried about his safety.

From the above article:

He wasn't mad. It was just an adventure for him. He said, 'This s**t happens. It was bad luck'."

[frylock]

61. great post, welcome to the board..

don't be discouraged by the people on this board who blindly accept so-called official accounts, and refuse to keep an open mind in regards to doing some research, or acknowledging that there is something not at all right about this.

[TroglodyteScholar]

48. Here's why I say that motive is valid...

Think back to before it happened so as not to take into consideration the reactions/responses of people around the world. Now, try to determine whom an event such as this may benefit. Al Qaeda or the Iraqi people? No way. Nobody even wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole. Everyone is condemning it, Westerners and Easterners alike...the only evidence we even have that Al Qaeda is responsible is that the video first appeared on a supposedly Al Qaeda-related Web site (a claim that has been questioned by many, can someone repost details?) And terrorists are NOT stupid -- they think things through in a very strategic manner. Unfortunately, I believe the same could be said of the Bush administration.

[ant]

50. it's still ridiculous

Now, try to determine whom an event such as this may benefit. Al Qaeda or the Iraqi people? No way. Nobody even wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole.

By that logic I should be able to argue that the US did NOT abuse prisoners. Who benefits from photos of abuse? Bush or the US war effort? No way. Nobody even wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole.

Your argument only makes sense if we require that all Iraqi people be in on the plan, and no one is claiming that. A handful of people did something awful - it makes sense that some people will support it and others will condemn it. That's exactly what we've seen with the prison abuse scandal and that's exactly what's happening with the Berg murder.

And I would say this does benefit terrorists, Al-Q or otherwise. They were able to kill an American in revenge for the prison abuse. That elevates their standing in the eyes of those who wanted revenge and positions them as leaders of the anti-US group(s).

Everyone is condemning it, Westerners and Easterners alike...the only evidence we even have that Al Qaeda is responsible is that the video first appeared on a supposedly Al Qaeda-related Web site (a claim that has been questioned by many, can someone repost details?)

No, we also have the voice of Zarqawi.

In any case, nothing you've said here counters my points regarding the US' motive given earlier. Again, you do not bury a story by expanding on it and making it even more gruesome. That's completely and utterly ridiculous.

[TroglodyteScholar]

53. Hmm

"By that logic I should be able to argue that the US did NOT abuse prisoners. Who benefits from photos of abuse?"

Well, assuming nobody outside the prison learned about the abuse, the us DID stand to gain from the abuse. You do recall mention of interrogations going on, right? You really think people were doing those things just for shits & giggles?

"No, we also have the voice of Zarqawi"

Have you ever heard him speak? Do you recognize his voice? Would you even recognize him if you saw him on the street, much less in this video? You must be a very trusting individual to just accept whatever the FBI says about this.

The only reason anything I've said is "utterly ridiculous" is because you've already made up your mind. Nothing you said answers any of my questions. Furthermore, I never used words like "ridiculous" in describing your thoughts, so how about a little respect -- at least until you come up with some actual facts that settle my concerns.

[ant]

56. c'mon

Well, assuming nobody outside the prison learned about the abuse, the us DID stand to gain from the abuse.

Right, which is why I explicitly mentioned the photos. I realize they were doing this for psychological interrogation stuff and whatever else, but my point remains: The fact that people in the Arab and/or Muslim world have spoken out against this murder does not mean it was not carried out by Arabs or Muslims, just like the fact that Americans have spoken out against the prison abuse does not mean it wasn't carried out by Americans. Some people speaking out against the murder does not mean killing an American in revenge for the prison abuse will not give the murderers a position of respect and authority in the eyes of some people, just as avenging American deaths plays very well with certain segments of the population here.

Your argument was that the murder gains them nothing, and I very clearly explained what it could gain them. I'm not saying that is the answer, but it is a legitimate possibility, as legitimate and as possible as the idea that this was a big US government conspiracy. In fact, I would say it's more likely, for reasons I've already explained.

I'm not saying conspiracy is impossible, I'm just pointing out the gaps in your logic and alternative explanations you have overlooked.

The only reason anything I've said is "utterly ridiculous" is because you've already made up your mind. Nothing you said answers any of my questions.

I very clearly explained to you why the motive you proposed doesn't make any sense, and you have yet to refute my points on that. Instead of addressing my argument, you changed the argument, coming back with a post on how there's no motive for the terrorists. I explained to you that there is. I've done this twice now.

And I have not made up my mind. How you can say this when my very first post on the issue was to draw attention to inconsistencies in the video and the CIA's claims about it is just beyond me. You clearly missed the entire point of my post, choosing instead to focus on the one tiny comment that didn't fit your views.

Forget respect - I'd settle for people who bother to read posts before accusing everyone who disagrees with them of being tools for the machine.

[TroglodyteScholar]

70. I'm done with you, guy

"I'd settle for people who bother to read posts before accusing everyone who disagrees with them of being tools for the machine."

As someone who asks that others read his posts before replying, would you like to tell me where I said anything even remotely resembling what you paraphrased above?

Tool or not, you draw a lot of conclusions that aren't present & then accuse me of doing the same thing. Clearly we're not communicating well with each other. It certainly doesn't help that you jump to use words like "ridiculous" and put words in my mouth when I haven't done or said anything to provoke such behavior.

If you were, in fact, just pointing out gaps in my logic (I'm still not really sure you had a point at all), for future reference...your enlightening and informed commentary might be better recieved if it's not loaded with insulting language and foregone conclusions.

[ant]

72. that's interesting

I still don't see any arguments from you refuting my explanation of why the US motive you put forward is ridiculous.

One, simple question: how does staging an event intricately connected to a story bury that story?

This is the logic of your argument, and I am saying it's ridiculous. And this isn't namecalling, either, the logic in that argument is absurd. It is unreasonable, it does not follow, etc. It's like saying the best way to stay dry is to go out on a boat. The best way to stay dray is to avoid water completely.

Tool or not, you draw a lot of conclusions that aren't present

Such as? Can you give me an example of where I've drawn a conclusion? Didn't I specifically say that I have not made up my mind on this?

& then accuse me of doing the same thing.

What I've accused you of is bad logic and ignoring plausible alternatives. You also commented that I must be very trusting and unwilling to keep an open mind, and that's where the tool comment I made came from. If you had read my initial post on this at all you would realize how wrong you are.

It certainly doesn't help that you jump to use words like "ridiculous"

I believe I explained why I found your theory about US motives ridiculous. The primary issue is presented in bold at the top of this post. I've drawn attention to this discrepancy repeatedly and have yet to get an answer about it.

[TroglodyteScholar]

73. My last post to you..

You love to say "if you'd read..." etc etc, but did you even read my first post that you responded to? Here we go ONE MORE TIME. Your question that has already been answered is this: "how does staging an event intricately connected to a story bury that story?" My answer that I have already stated is this: video of the brutal decapitation of one of our guys makes the old headline (prison abuse, humiliation, torture, whatever you want to call it) seem like child's play. It is impossible for me to be any clearer.

If it would please you for me to back up and say it doesn't bury the orignal story, but puts it in an entirely different light (one which is more favorable to the Bush administration), then I'll let you be so gratified.

You really should quit being so insistent that I'm not reading your words until you comprehend what I've written -- without having me restate it.

[ant]

74. alright

If it would please you for me to back up and say it doesn't bury the orignal story, but puts it in an entirely different light (one which is more favorable to the Bush administration), then I'll let you be so gratified.

Alright, that makes a little more sense. So now the motive isn't "they wanted to bury the story" but "they wanted to shift its focus." While I personally still don't buy it - why try to give it a different angle rather than bury it completely by staging a large truck bomb at an embassy or something? - at least it makes more sense in that the staged event was more suitable to these ends than those you originally stated.

Of course, there's still the issue of why they would choose to murder a guy from an anti-war family who had already tried to sue them. It seems to me you would want to pick a target with a pro-Bush family that could them come out and cry for the cameras and rally the public around the terrible murder of their son, etc. As it is, they picked someone whose family can now use the murder to expose how out of control this cycle of violence is. Again, I would just assume that the US' dark forces are a little smarter than that.

And the reason I said you don't read my posts is because I've already agreed there are inconsistencies in this story that need more explanation, so to say I must be incredibly trusting would require that you ignore my previous comments. And so you know, I have no personal interest in this either way. I know what the US is capable of and would not be surprised at all if they did stage this. My only point is that the explanation of US involvement offered so far is pretty weak, and there are still alternative explanations, some more plausible and likely than US conspiracy. It's not about what I want to believe because I really don't want to believe either way. I don't care who did it as much as I care that we know the truth, whatever it might be.

edited subject heading

[TroglodyteScholar]

76. For the record...

...my original post simply said, "Do you suppose it may benefit the Bush administration to have a story that tops the prison abuse scandal in brutality and senselessness?" I don't make any mention of the decapitation knocking the prison scandal entirely out of the news.

As for why they would choose to murder him...There are a few possibilities. One, he was a civilian in Iraq who was not affiliated with any of the big government contractors. It could even be said that the work he sought (working on communications towers) was directly competitive with the work of some of the corportate recipients of government contracts. Furthermore, maybe he saw or experienced something while in Iraq that the government would rather wasn't exposed. Maybe something with his interrogation, maybe something else...who knows. This isn't terribly likely, but we all remember how any journalist in Iraq during major combat was either embedded or fair game. So that at least a possibility.

This situation sucks, because while we all know it's fishy, the possibilities for what actually happened (& why) are absolutely limitless. Until more info becomes available (and who knows if it even will?), all we can do is speculate.

I just want to know the truth, too...and I don't expect to get it from the US gov't OR the US media. I guess I don't expect to get it at all.

[ant]

77. just two points

"Do you suppose it may benefit the Bush administration to have a story that tops the prison abuse scandal in brutality and senselessness?" I don't make any mention of the decapitation knocking the prison scandal entirely out of the news.

Now, now...I think the implication of a story that "tops the prison abuse scandal" is one that surpasses it in media coverage, i.e., knocks it out of the news, especially since the sentence before the one you've quoted was, Do you recall what was on the front page of every newspaper in the 10 days prior to the decapitation? Even if "bury the story" wasn't your exact phrase, you clearly meant that the abuse story would no longer be on the front page. It would be buried. This point about the motive being to provide a pro-US/pro-war spin on the existing story is separate.

It could even be said that the work he sought (working on communications towers) was directly competitive with the work of some of the corportate recipients of government contracts.

I don't think his company was much competition for the big guys. In fact, I remember reading he worked as a subcontractor, so I would guess he was looking to the big guys for work.

The point about him seeing something while being interrogated makes the most sense, but then I doubt he saw anything that thousands of others haven't already seen. You would also think that if he did have information he would've been anxious to get out, or would've at least appeared somewhat nervous. The people who saw him at his hotel after his release but before he went missing don't seem to be reporting anything unusual, and I think they've described him as being optimistic about his work in Iraq. That just doesn't fit the profile of a man who has bad information about the US government.

[Sterling]

81. "Clearly we're not communicating well with each other"

And it's not your fault.

[ant]

83. riiight

It's all my fault, what with my demands that things make sense and all. :eyes:

[killbotfactory]

13. These assholes are about as Muslim as Bush is a christian

Or, you know, those "pro-life" people who see no problem in killing doctors.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. Mohammed Atta loved gold jewelry, cocaine and pork chops.

So said his stripper girlfriend in Florida.

And that begs the question: what is "Al Qaeda"?

[Mokito]

44. what is "Al Qaeda"?

IMHO, the same as every other power hungry organization or person for that matter: Do As I Say, Not As I Do.

[RobinA]

47. Yep

Celibacy is supposedly a vow that Catholic priests take, but that doesn't mean the all pedophile priests prove that the Catholic Church is a CIA front.

[Just Me]

17. BAH!!! *throwing up*,....n/t

[pinniped]

18. These jokers don't even know for sure...

and look at this statement:

One of the clues the FBI and CIA is studying is the large gold ring Zarqawi is wearing on his right hand, giving off a glare several times during the six-minute tape.

Either way don't expect the "real" truth to come from anyone in the POS bu$h misadmin.

[chenGOD]

31. Wow, thanks, I missed that one completely.

They're trying to see if the gold ring that Zarqawi is wearing will lead to clues as to the identity of the wearer of the ring? WTF? Do they really expect people to buy this?

That's the most ridiculous statement I've seen in oh...well easily the last day or so (there are so many ridiculous statements coming out of the mal-administration these days)....

[montana_hazeleyes]

21. We'll never learn the truth about anything

as long as the fox is always in charge of investigating the break -in of the hen house.

[AMP 397]

22. I Doubt it.

I personally doubt that the ring has any significance but if any of you can find out more i would love to know about it. Although i did hear on CNN that investigators are not letting go of the thought that they have not ruled out that the CIA may have had something to do with this to cover up the Iraqi Abuse photos. Which if were true i have no clue what i would think of this country.

[Shopaholic]

23. NBC confirmed the story about the gold ring

this morning on the Today show.

[Erika]

33. It's Sad.

No one trusts the Bush administration to tell the truth about anything.

[catzies]

60. Welcome to DU, AMP 397.

Please tell us what you think about this country now, just for comparative purposes.

Are you saying the CIA was doing the covering up, as opposed to committing the crime itself? The reports and photos we're seeing now go back to January; don't you think the Pentagon was doing the covering-up then?

If you're old enough to remember Watergate, you'll recall the saying "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. I think Berg was dead before his throat was cut and his head removed...

...because when the juglar was cut there was not the massive outflow of blood that I would have expected to see.

Just a thought.

[Tansy_Gold]

35. How many beheadings have you seen that you "expected"

a massive outflow of blood?

I'm not trying to attack anyone, but is it possible that your expectation was in error, rather than the video?

And by the way, I believe it's the "jugular" vein, but veins don't usually spurt, so I suspect you really mean the carotid artery.

[burrowowl]

38. The caritoid arteries

do spurt far and wide. And these arteries are in the neck.
What you see on TV and Movies does not reflect how the body reacts to sudden trauma. Hell, even killing a chicken, rabbit, pig etc. by cutting its neck gives off blood, this is why some prefer slitting throat to wringing neck. Ringing neck produces more blood in the meat and is claimed to be tastier, slitting throat makes the blood come out to be used for making blood saugage or gravy.
When one slaughters an animal the caritoid is aimed at and a bowl is used to collect the blood. Just digging into a neck produces a mess all over the place.
Even nicking the caritoid produces quite a bit of blood, have witnessed this. Fortunately the person was able to be sewn up since the caritoid was only nicked.

[SidDithers]

46. Clint Malarchuk - goalie for the Buffalo Sabres...

Took a skate to the neck in 1989, and had his jugular cut. I remember seeing blood spurting from the wound immediately after.

http://www.ubersite.com/m/32313

Sid

[0007]

79. Also there was very little movement of Berg's body during the executing

of removing the head. It sure as hell looked stagged to me.

[will work 4 food]

26. "CIA did it to take the heat off the Pentagon

blueridge
"CIA did it to take the heat off the Pentagon"--NBC reporter
Wed May 12, 2004 23:17
69.43.13.218

"...the CIA did it to take the heat off the Pentagon"--NBC reporter stated tonight prime time news, continuing, "...a story that will not die easily here in the Arab world".
NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw, May 12th

Thus said the reporter from NBC News already "innoculating" the public against this reasonable "conspiracy theory" being promulgated by more questioning minds in both America and overseas. BUT IT MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD!

The previous article posted, "Fishy Circumstances and Flawed Timelines" is worth reading, especially the numbered observations at the close of the article. But there is more to add:

1. Both Drudge and Aljazeera report that "ööA body found on Monday by US military patrol along a roadside over the weekend was identified as Berg's."
ALJAZEERA
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C6F93CE0-8FCB-425E-BD40-672B38CF68B1.htm

Note the confused reporting in this direct quote, "on Monday", "over the weekend", by US military patrol. Was it found on Monday or over the weekend--which one? Does this make sense to anyone? Or was someone scrambling a press release (in panic) of wording that was hastily contrived, and uncertain themselves about how the facts would compare to the report. VAGUE TIMING BEGS THE QUESTION, WHEN WAS THIS BODY REALLY FOUND?

Secondly, how was the body identified as "Berg's", if it was headless? Or was it? How do you quickly identify a body without a head?

Third, WHO were the U.S. forces that found it? Were they the same ones involved in his illegal detention?

2. Here is the smoking gun: If the body was found on Monday (May 10th), or previously "over the weekend" (prior), how could the execution and video be taped on May 11th, as is reported?

"The statement in the video was signed off with Zarqawi's name and dated 11 May" (Drudge and Aljazeerah).

An Arab magic trick indeed...to be able to execute a man on video tape ("May 11"), AFTER HIS BODY IS FOUND BY US FORCES, on "May 10th"!!!!! The video is not the only thing that appears fuzzy!!

3. The video was dated May 11th, typical Judeo-Masonic (CIA/MOSSAD) signature and M.O., like 9/11, and the recent 3/11 in Spain. Sorry, there is an M.O. to this "terrorism" that matches that of government psy-ops! Funny how they never mention the obvious pattern of dating isn't it? And the "terroists" signed his name to the video, though they wore hoods and masks! (Why?)

4. Berg's father filed law suit against the illegal detention of their son....and, bingo, he was released the next day (but not very popular we can be certain)!
"His father, Nick, filed a lawsuit on 5 April stating Berg was being held illegally by the US military in Iraq. The next day Berg was released." Aljazeera and Drudge

5. The Guatanamo Bay type US issue prison suit is very suspicious! Either he was handed over to the alleged "terrorists" in it--meaning US forces complicity to rid them of an American "dissident"--or the executions are Government--i.e. CIA (well-fed, lily white hands, hooded...but leaving the name of the executioner?)!

6. According to the video clock notations in the film, the "execution" took place between 13:46 and 13:47....apparently around 1:46 to 1:47 pm. Why is the video time not in Arabic? Do Arabs use military time?
<http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm>

7. "God is great".....typical propaganda to libel militant Muslim jihaders with the crime, while they have lily white hands, their victim in US issue prison clothes, and video time in US military English!

8. The TIMING of this event being reported to the American public, on May 11th evening (note how quickly this went to full-blown news coverage by 6:30pm EDT on the very day of the execution......fast......and conveniently. Even MORE remarkable is how this was reported to Congress (not sure when) during WORK HOURS IN SESSION, precisely as the Pentagon, Rumsfeld, etc., were being grilled, and Senators were investigation the horrific prisoner abuse, and who was behind it! TALK ABOUT WELL-COORDINATED AND EXPEDITED 1) EXECUTION 2) BODY FOUND, IDENTIFIED, 3)NOTIFICATION OF KIN, 4) REPORTED TO CONGRESS...5) RELEASE IN FULL DETAIL WITH VIDEO TO NETWORK NEWS..........ALL IN ONE AMAZING DAY!!!!!

Is that a credible timetable WITHOUT government involvement? The 9/11 "hijackers" were not even identified for a couple days....but this one is instantly solved, and we are expected to swallow it whole without choking!

8. The pattern of US government information, from Bush, the Pentagon, Jessica Lynch, justification for Iraq, the "911" story is a HISTORY OF PROVEN LIES AND FALSEHOODS FOR POLITICAL ENDS!!! So why should ANYONE believe this!!

This is the most inaccurate combination of facts of any realistic scenario of an execution and identification of who did it--contrived in panic and haste to deflect the outcoming of literal "war crimes" by US forces--that would not be sustained in any court of law, except that of the naive and brainwashed American mind, that has a Yankee flag wrapped around its eyes and ears!

BUSH GOVERNMENT (CIA) DID IT......AGAIN!

One more piece below, by Andrea Mitchell of NBC, how not just the Army, but Special Forces and the ever-present CIA were ALL involved in the gross abuses and deaths of Iraqi prisoners, in this bogus war..... THIS PROVES CIA INVOLVEMENT AND MOTIVE FOR COVERING UP ABUSIVE TORTURE AND KILLINGS, AS WELL AS ADMITTED COVERUPS ABOUT THEM.

May 6: As the investigation into the prison abuse scandal expands, there are new indications it reaches beyond the Army. NBC's Andrea Mitchell has details.
NBC Nightly News

Delta Force, Navy SEALs involved in abuse?
By Andrea Mitchell
Correspondent
NBC News

Updated: 6:15 p.m. ET May 06, 2004As the investigation expands, officials tell NBC News that special operations forces, including both Delta Force and Navy SEALs, were possibly also involved in abusing prisoners in Iraq.
In fact, one prisoner, Mon Adel al Jamadi, died while being interrogated in Abu Ghraib by a CIA officer last November, shortly after being captured by Navy SEALs. Al Jamadi was being questioned about a plot to attack U.S. forces with plastic explosives.

An autopsy revealed al Jamadi had broken ribs and had been “badly beaten.” His CIA interrogator has told investigators the prisoner was injured before he was turned over to the CIA — something the Navy denies.
In a second case, the CIA is being investigated for the death of Iraqi Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush near the Syrian border, also last November. The CIA says he died several days after they questioned him.

A third CIA prisoner died last June in Afghanistan — also after a severe beating.

Did the CIA or other intelligence agencies tell the guards to get the prisoners to talk? According to former CIA officer Robert Baer, “I can’t believe that those MPs knew enough about Arab culture to systematically do this.… Somebody prompted them.”

Intelligence officials deny directing the abuse. But the Army’s investigation said military intelligence and “other government agencies” — the Army’s code for the CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency and special operations forces, “actively requested that MP guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses.”
The general who was in charge of the prison says it got out of hand. Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski remembers, “They said, ‘Hey, that worked pretty well.’ They told us to take the clothes away from those six prisoners, and nobody seemed to think that that was wrong, so let’s take clothes away from 12 of them.”

Now the CIA confirms that some of its officers hid prisoners from watchdog groups like the Red Cross — violations also under investigation.

© 2004 MSNBC Interactive

[ze_dscherman]

36. Question number 6

Video recorders all over the world use "military" timecode. e.G. that's the ordinary way electronic instruments display time in Germany. Usuallay they can be set up either in a 24 hour display mode or "the American way" with AM/PM settings.

As well, it's pretty common that you find numbers and times on arabic websites in western style. Just look at the BBC Arab pages: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/news/

[burrowowl]

40. Europe uses the 24 hour clock as does

most of the world. Americans are about the only ones to use am, pm. Also about the only ones to put MMDDYY, most of the world uses DDMMYY.

[colonel odis]

42. that's because we use hindu-ARABIC numerals n/t

[ant]

52. a headless body

Secondly, how was the body identified as "Berg's", if it was headless? Or was it? How do you quickly identify a body without a head?

There was a head. Berg's own (anti-war) family has confirmed that they were told about how Berg was killed because they found the head separate from the body. They knew he was beheaded before the video came out.

Or was someone scrambling a press release (in panic) of wording that was hastily contrived, and uncertain themselves about how the facts would compare to the report.

Indeed.

[IronLionZion]

27. Mohammed Atta loved pork chops and strip clubs

so what? These bastards are already defying islamic law by killing innocent people.

[CelticKnight]

28. Murder of civilians, Etc.

I have a couple thoughts on all this. I'm new to website, and my comment will probably get me flamed.
First, I say it's a gimme that the abuse of prisoners is a sickening thing. I'm sure everyone agrees. What I would like to know, is why does this story go on DAY AFTER DAY, yet when civilians are killed, tortured, hacked up and dragged through the streets by so called Muslims, that story gets a one day treatment and no one gives the outcry that has been given to the detainees in Iraq. I read a story where the head cleric in Iran Condemned the action of these thugs killing civilians and stated this is not the way of Islam. Yet this story was not carried by anyone (I read this on an Arab website).
It's pretty sad when ALL the major news organizations and our politician's ignore and don't speak out the way they have on the abuse of prisoners concerning the daily killing of civilians by these thugs. Ive seen video of the fighting where these slime balls are using children and women as human shields! Nary a peep from the news and no outcry from the Arabs or capitol hill....
Lastly, I get tired of hearing the phrase "Islamic" or "Muslim" terrorists. Thats would be like a serial killer, because he is catholic being called a Catholic serial killer. These animals are not practicing Muslims. They are in the same genre as the idiots who kill abortion doctors and claim they are Christians. No such thing as a Christian murderer.

Flame away :)

[pop goes the weasel]

32. no flames from me

First, welcome!

Now, to your points. As far as the attention to the slaying of the contractors, I think you are wrong that it didn't get a lot of media coverage or attention from Capitol Hill or Arab media. For a brief period, it was the top headline. But then, the United States's deadline for turning over those responsible passed, and the US started attacking Fallujah, which caused a new crisis. So, the US response to the murder and desecration of the contractors is what reduced the attention to them, and not a lack of concern or interest by media or politicians.

I agree with you that calling murders "Islamic" or "Christian" or whathaveyou, distracts from what such people really are. That said, it is simply shorthand for what such people claim to be representing. If there was suddenly a cult of violent Trekkies killing in the name of James Kirk, they'd be called Trekkie terrorists, even though most Trekkies are mild mannered. Perhaps the media should instead call groups like Al Qaida or Christian Identity "so-called" Muslims or "self-described" Christians. But then you get into the tricky territory of some news reporter making theological judgment calls. So I don't know what the answer to that problem is.

[snippy]

51. News outlets can not make a profit repeating the same facts day after day.

When new facts come out about a story they report those new facts. When no new facts come out about a story they do not repeat the previously reported facts. It is a capitalism thing.

There is a small market niche for the endless repetition of the same facts day after day and there are several conservative news organizations which fill that niche. But for the broader market reruns of news is unprofitable.

Welcome to DU.

[Dover]

30. If there had been NO SOUND, would you have concluded these were

arabs or islamists?

[fortyfeetunder]

34. They could have been Murkans as far as I know...

I don't think the "authorities" know, they are just trying to foment anger against the Arab world....

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[nolabels]

41. Yes Mr. Grovebot, I think we got one ringy dingy

Ernestine, the Telephone Operator - Celebrity pseudonym of comedienne Lily Tomlin when she portrayed "Ernestine, the telephone operator" on the comedy variety program ROWAN AND MARTIN'S LAUGH-IN/NBC/1968-73. Seated behind an antique switchboard, looking like a fourth Andrew Sister, Ernestine played havoc with the Phone Company customer. Unofficially, her motto might be "Reach out and BUG someone." As she waited for her phone call to go through to her customers, she listened to the phone ringing at the other end of the line and counted "one ringy-dingy, two ringy-dingy...." When someone answered, she nasally continued with "A gracious good morning to you...Have I reached the party to whom I am speaking?" From then on, all "Bell" broke loose as Ernestine abused her phone customers, intermittently laughing like a pig (snort! snort!).

"Here at the Phone Company we handle eighty-four billion calls a year. Serving everyone from presidents and kings to scum of the earth. (snort) We realize that every so often you can't get an operator, for no apparent reason your phone goes out of order , or perhaps you get charged for a call you didn't make. We don't care. Watch this just lost Peoria. (snort) You see, this phone system consists of a multibillion-dollar matrix of space-age technology that is so sophisticated, even we can't handle it. But that's your problem, isn't it ? Next time you complain about your phone service, why don't you try using two Dixie cups with a string. We don't care. We don't have to. (snort) We're the Phone Company!" -- Lily Tomlin from "Saturday Night Live: The First 20 Years" (1994 Cader Company).
(snip)
http://www.tvacres.com/comm_ernestine.htm

[truthisfreedom]

43. is there this much analysis of the video footage from the torture prison?

let's see some glittering gold rings and faces reflected in buttons from that footage, as well as the stills.

[scoooter]

45. Points to ponder

Good morning

Seems the FBI is doing an autopsy on Mr. Berg. They will learn that he was dead before the beheading as they will find no aspired blood in his lungs. Of course the results will never be published.....I wonder why

I also wonder if a voice print match could be made from the scream to see if the scream was even that of Mr. Breg. Voice prints are used in criminal investigation on a routeine basis. If the voice is not Mr. Bergs and it were possible to compare voice prints of known agents where he was held, I betcha we would find a match.

I don't know if voice prints are admissable in court. But their use has been vital in assisting in criminal investigations that have led to convictions

Modern forensic science is a very powerful tool. There may be other indicators that can prove he was beheaded after he was murdered by the FBI, CIA or one of the mercenaries hired by this bunch of COWARDS

Most but; not all evidence of strangulation at the site will have been destroyed by the beheading. However there may still be some evidence left as he was beheaded above the typical site on the neck where a garrott would have been used.

They also appeared to be using the wrong type of knife that would normally be carried by an Arabian warrior. The knives I've seen used in these types of executions were curved like a sickle....not the typical U.S. military issue knife I saw in the video. Again Autopsy will show the type of weapon used.

Could it be possible to contact a Berg Family representative informing them of these suspicions. If this were a matter here in this country, it would be enough circumstancial evidence to re-open a criminal case

We demand justice be placed where it belongs. This also will be beneficial to the Berg family case when they file a wrongful death suit against the government and perhaps seek murder charges as well. There would also be great benefit from an independent autopsy.
_________________
That our brothers shall not have died in vain

FREEDOM!
William (Braveheart) Wallace's dying word

[FlaGranny]

54. Funny, an Egyptian

Muslim lady I know just loves gold jewelry, and she won't accept anything under 18 karats.

[Tansy_Gold]

55. Women are not prohibited from wearing gold, only men

I don't know the details, but the info has been posted several times in various threads on the general topic of the Berg murder.

Men cannot wear gold or silk, but women can. The Prophet said so.


Tansy Gold, not a Muslim but well suckered into reading far too much DU in the past two days

[FlaGranny]

67. Thanks for the information, I wasn't aware of the other

threads, I haven't been around here much lately. I also obviously do not know much about Islamic rules and such. I was just making a statement about a personal observation. :-)

[Nyati13]

57. Key word..."Lady"

Totally blows your statement out of the water.

The Islamic restriction is against MEN wearing GOLD rings. It does not relate to women in any way shape or form, and it also does not apply to rings made of materials other than gold (ie silver)

Jeremy

[FlaGranny]

68. Wow,

sorry about that! But my statement, by itself just says I know an Islamic lady who loves 18 karat gold. That statement is true. It seened ironic to me because, as you can tell, I'm not an expert on Islamic rules, and I have not read the other threads on the subject. I don't really believe my innocent surprise needs to be "blown out of the water." Peace.

[DS1]

59. is it not logical to assume that they've adapted Islam to suit themselves,

thus making the appearance of a simple ring a moot point?

[frylock]

64. but these people are supposed to be hard line fundamentalists..

It may be alright for you or I to indulge in a little meat on a Friday during Lent, but these guys are allegedly so hard core, that they would gladly give up their lives for their God. I doubt that they allow for concessions.

[DS1]

65. well, some would say meat is murder, and if these guys

don't mind murdering someone against the teachings of Islam, it's probably not big on their list of no-nos to wear a ring.

[frylock]

66. i'm no expert on islamic theology..

but I imagine there is some wiggle room in regards to murdering someone when you are convinced you are defending yourself against crusaders.

[Sterling]

82. I disagree that does not fit the profile of a zealot

They justify killing but that does not mean they take their religion less seriously as a result. The kinds of vices we are speaking of are more "secular" vices. Relgious people do horrible things in the name of their religion. However usually does not translate to them dismissing other tenents of their radical faith. I think to assume such is a big mistake.

[denverbill]

62. Why would Zarqawi wear a mask, but claim responsibility? n/t

[Just Me]

69. Kinda' weird to cleverly hide one's identity and take responsibility

at the same time.

[denverbill]

71. You never see Osama wearing a mask.

And supposedly Zarqawi is al Quaida also.

[no name no slogan]

75. So is drinking, adultery, murdering innocents, etc.

I know of many muslim men, in this country and elsewhere in the world, who wear gold wedding bands or other types of rings. I also know of many muslims who drink beer and liquor on occassion, and eat pepperoni pizzas, too, although the Prophet Muhammad spoke against drinking alcohol and eating pork.

Also, how many people here wear clothing made from two different fibers, or have grown two crops in the same field, or have eaten dairy and meat in the same mean? Well, according to Leviticus, you're going to hell, because these practices were forbidden as well.

Most devotees of one religion or another do things that are forbidden by their religion at least once in a while. This "gold ring" thing is just another red herring to distract people from the REAL problem: the continuing US occupation of Iraq. Sometimes we get too lost in the details of one act or another that we lose focus of the big picture.

[PATRICK]

78. Fanatical observance

That would seem to suggest(this is not a strong theory, please) former secularist Saddamites on one side or the other or both. What would be gained from shifting blame to AlQaeda for resistance Iraqis? Our "good" former Baathist Iraqis on the other hand would be a neater fit, the ones also in the hot seat for prison abuse now and during Saddam's reign.

If it was resistance secular forces why not take credit if honor and revenge was such a big thing? The Al Qaeda presumption looks ever weaker as well.

Yet the headline damage has been done. Truth will have all the power of a page 34 retraction six months after.