U.S. Rep. Steve King of Iowa: Abuse amounts to hazing

[4dsc]

http://dmregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040514/NEWS09/405140343/1001&lead=1

This guy must be listening to Rush.. What a damn idiot!!

U.S. Rep. Steve King of Iowa said Thursday that Iraqi prisoner abuse amounted to little more than "hazing" and called for Democrats to stop criticizing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

But U.S. Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa said such comments belittle the seriousness of the physical and sexual abuse and "degrade America."

The exchange between the Iowans - King a Republican and Harkin a Democrat - came as Rumsfeld made a surprise visit to Baghdad, President Bush said he has been "disgraced" by the scandal, and members of Congress continued looking into what went on at Abu Ghraib prison.

King said in a written statement that the abuse cannot compare to what Iraqi insurgents have done to Americans. "The dismembered and charred corpses of American contractors dangling over the Euphrates River in comparison to the abuse committed by a few soldiers at Abu Ghraib are like the crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer compared to those of Heidi Fleiss," said King.

[rooboy]

1. I fail to see how the dead guy packed in ice was "hazed". n/t

[robbedvoter]

8. That's cuz you're not "fraternity material"

:eyes:

[saigon68]

41. I'd love to see him with a burning Flashlight SHOVED up his RECTUM

Or maybe being ridden like a dog by some interrogator who is pantsless.

This Idiot (I apologize to Idiots) is a prime PREVIEW of the Coming Fascist state.

[tom_paine]

57. Yep. But I won't be around to see it, saigon68

I suspect neither will you.

"Live Free or Die"
--New Hampshire State Motto

[progressivebydesign]

64. More Skull & Bones hijinx?

That man should be impeached from his position in D.C. Just repeating his Rush talking points. What a subhuman.

[stevedeshazer]

56. Another chickenhawk talking tough

I love these tough guys who didn't serve.

[sniffa]

2. sure it is

haven't you heard of frat pLedges getting raped in?

[Solly Mack]

3. Well, now we know what King did throughout his school years n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

4. Yeah, becoming a "free" American is like joining a fraternity

too bad the dead guy couldn't take it...

[robbedvoter]

5. WH never repudiated Limpballs comments. These are talking points

that will be now spread through the land. It went the same with France: hate radio-nutz in congress-liberal media-W

[dedhed]

6. Republicans are nothing if not consistant...

... in their idiocy. Still using the "hazing" comparison?!? I guess that's called steady... as in steady leadership.

:bounce:

[City Lights]

10. Steady, BOLD leadership.

;-)

[displacedtexan]

7. Let's "haze" King!

We would be prosecuted for "hazing" King--- kidnapping, sensory deprivation, starvation, sexual humiliation, rape, murder...

What an asshole!

[OKNancy]

29. Not King, but his children

Would he like his children to be "hazed" in such a manner?

[LiberalFighter]

66. I will volunteer... better yet... Iraqi's should volunteer

[CWebster]

9. 'boys will be boys"

is what he will be saying next.

[snippy]

11. Just some republican torture pranks. n/t

[ze_dscherman]

12. Wow, what a tough mofo of a rep-repuke, the world will sure look up to him

NOT

[ze_dscherman]

13. Can somebody give the world that ***********'s email?

I'd love to let him know what I think of this.

[Shadder]

17. No public email address, but...

Washington, D.C. Office
Office of Congressman Steve King
1432 Longworth Office Building
Washington D.C. 20515
[phone]
Fax: [phone]

Storm Lake Office
Office of Congressman Steve King
607 Lake Avenue
Storm Lake, Iowa 50588
[phone]
Fax: [phone]
Sioux City Office
Office of Congressman Steve King
526 Nebraska Street
Sioux City, IA 51101
[phone]
Fax: [phone]

Council Bluffs Office
Office of Congressman Steve King
40 Pearl St.
Council Bluffs, IA 51503
[phone]
Fax: [phone]

[calimary]

20. You can call him a jerk - TOLL FREE!

See my sig line...

[ze_dscherman]

25. Won't work from Germany

- unfortunately.

[calimary]

45. Indeed, didn't realize that.

You can get everybody's emails if you go to www.congress.org - then to its directories. They have phone/fax/email/address info for everybody on the Hill.

[salin]

14. After the congressional review of the pics - I thought I read that

one congressman (I think a republican) referred to a prisoner who had appeared to have been beaten, knocked down on the floor and then appeared to be urinated upon.

That doesn't sound like "fraternity hazing" to me. I don't even think that those spewing the RNC talks believe them, but that the goal is to reframe the mental public image into something that is somewhat familiar and not so harsh - so that later, when this passes, the remembered characterization is greatly minimized.

While I get this move politically - it is foolish strategically - as it down plays the likely reprecussions in Iraq of anger focused upon the troops still stationed there - and it increases the likelihood of factions within Iraq who have historically have been opposed, to unite against the US in resistance. THey seem to keep "not getting it" when they claim that the problem is the pictures themselves (hence the "cbs is the problem for airing the pictures) - by demonstrating that they don't get that 70-90% of those prisoners were caught up in sweeps and, according to the International Red Cross, are not tied to Bathists, Saddam, the resistance, nor al qeada.. and that those folks eventually are released and DO talk to their families, friends and other members of their community. The republican lines indicate that the only problem is a domestic image problem, and those echoing the RNC line seem unconcerned with the military and diplomatic problems that the systematic behavior (caught on film) present.

[CWebster]

18. Excellent post, but

you don't really think they actually care about the safety of the troops?

[Tellurian]

27. as someone else mentioned earlier..

our troops are cannon fodder for the Republican agenda.

[salin]

63. exactly - and thus

a point to be made (campaigning) that resonates and makes fence sitters have to think for a second... then a minute... then a bit longer...

[Tellurian]

15. I would like King to give us a first hand report...

I really want to understand his definition of 'hazing' because hazing certainly doesn't resonate with atrocities. I imagine for Mr. King to prove his assertion, he should check into the Abu Ghraib prison for several months and possibly do it as a reality tv series in conjunction with a Bush/Iraqi Fundraiser.

[cothomps]

16. Great....

I hope the folks in the 5th Congressional District are listening to that crap.

I fear that some of them might believe it...

[2cents]

19. No-biggie for Stevie

Makes you wonder which dungeons he frequents.

[NNN0LHI]

21. Republican Senator cites rape, murder

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/05/08/rumsfeld_apologizes_for_abuse_warns_of_worse_images_to_come/

<snip>The new photos and videotapes provide evidence of the rape and murder of prisoners, according to Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, who was given a classified briefing on the matter.

''It is going to get worse before it gets better," Graham said. ''We're talking about rape and murder."

more...Just a little hazing King?

[M155Y_A1CH]

22. War is peace and..........

Yes indeed, and rape is just like consenting sex.

[Tinoire]

23. Where did these people go to school?

:scared:

I shudder to think what else they consider "hazing". Abner Louima? James Byrd? Emmett Till?

[TahitiNut]

36. Well, not to defend this asshole's remarks, but many would be ...

... disturbed to discover the kind of hazing that I (and many others) went through for a year at a US service academy. During "The Purge" (a few weeks leading up to Christmas break), the degree of hazing reached extreme levels.

"The Green Bench" - Required to "sit" against a (green) wall, back against the wall and legs bent at the knee in a 90 degree position, just like sitting on a knee-high bench, but there was no bench. A cadet is required to stay in that position until they (literally) can't hold it any more, or even walk. Sometimes accompanied by holding a rifle with arms outstretched. (After a couple of such sessions, I was unable to either stand or walk for about 15-30 minutes, and with some difficulty thereafter.)

"The Blue Bed" - Required to hold a half-push-up position beneath a bed (with a blue bedspread), sometimes with the "assistance" of a bayonet placed under one's chest.

"Uniform Inspections" - Repeated musters in the hallway wearing the required uniform - which could consist of several layers of clothing. The heat was turned up (radiators turned on high) and upperclassmen would be sweating just wearing T-shirts and shorts. Required to perform the Manual of Arms and various exercises. Ad hoc "inspections" of a cadet's room with demerits awarded for any clothing not hung/folded/stowed strictly according to regulations. (Too many demerits would result in a cadet being expelled from the Academy.)

"Calisthenics" - Hours of double-timing, running-in-place, push-ups, and other physical activity, usually carrying an M-1 rifle and wearing whatever clothing was required. Some "calisthenics" involved holding one's penis in one hand and one's rifle in the other hand while running back and forth in the hallway yelling "This is my rifle; this is my gun; this is for fighting; this is for fun!" -- all to the great amusement of the upperclassmen.

During "The Purge," these hazing exercises consumed every evening ... sometimes going on after hours. Many cadets were required to perform "fire watch" duties - get up at various times at night and report to an upperclassman's room. For many cadets, this could result in almost total loss of sleep for a night or more.

Almost all hazing was accompanied by upperclassmen yelling and screaming at "swabs" (freshmen), usually requiring them to answer with a wide variety of military and trivia knowledge.

Hard to describe ... but unforgettable. Basic training and fraternity pledging was virtually NOTHING in comparison. (I did all three.)

[Tinoire]

40. I agree it can get brutal but it's a far cry from having a broomstick

shoved up your rectum or being forced to fellate others. \

Lol, these boys are out of control!

[TahitiNut]

44. I have absolutely no argument with that.

I'm merely describing "mainstream" hazing at a service academy (from direct personal experience) ... and not even talking about some of the more abusive practices that've been identified (some of which were prosecuted) at military academies under the guise of that hazing. It does nobody any good to trivialize hazing - a practice that can itself go overboard and become felonious. Even compared to the extremes of hazing, however, the crimes against humanity being perpetrated by the US at Abu Ghraib, Camp Bucca, Guantanimo, and various 'secret' locations must be displayed for the world to see.

[Tinoire]

50. Lol, I know

You didn't imply that and I didn't mean to imply that you implied that. All I can say to your post is "ditto"!

[TahitiNut]

54. Well, I can add to my reply with ...

:toast: :hi: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :yourock:

(I miss ya, luv!! And I still think that was the best dressing I've ever had in my life. Wow!)


On edit: For those of you who haven't met Tinoire in person - YOUR LOSS! (nyah, nyah, nyah!) She's a trip!

[Tinoire]

61. LMAO! I'll send you the recipe in time for next Thanksgiving

unless you can make it out here :)

:loveya:

[RapidCreek]

69. Yea the difference is you could have told them to stuff it up their

asses. In fact I would hazard to guess...If you did like my old man and kicked the living shit out of one of the upper classmen (he was a recently discharged WW2 82nd airborne sargent 1st class/jump master) I suspect they would have given you a VERY wide birth. Worked for him...then again he wasn't an academy boy...but a college student.

Were you Annapolis?


RC

[TahitiNut]

70. USCGA '61-'63

(Pretty much like USNA, but no appointments. Competitive exams only.)

It's really not sufficient to say "you coulda." Coercion comes in many costumes, but it's always a "If you want to ____, then you'll comply" adhesive 'contract.' With torture, of course, it's the word "live" that fills in the blank. Indeed, torturers rely on the "you coulda" thinking ... by saying "you coulda given us the information we want." The victim is ALWAYS purported to be in control of his own victimization. It's codependent 'logic' on steroids ... gone even more insane.

Again, there's no equivalence relationship but the comprehension of one can yield an increased comprehension of the other. The cloak of 'subordination' in an authoritarian/totalitarian subculture, the corruption of power, the 'blame the victim' mental duress ... all these are huge lessons we can see even in our everyday lives. One cannot honestly examine these lessons and not conclude that we're ALL just as likely to be a torturer as the tortured when this thinking becomes as rampant as it's becoming. It's a Pogo moment.

[RapidCreek]

71. I'm familiar with it, my cousin tried to get into USCGA

but they wouldn't accept him....so he went to ISU and then enlisted as a first luey. He ended up doing R and D on advanced sorts of diving apparatus and eventually became an X/O on a cutter. It was in the mid 80's I think.

The fact is Tahiti, is that you could have walked out of the CGA if you had WANTED to. Many do...you did not. Iraqi prisoners cannot walk out of a prison if they want to....they'd be shot and killed. You WANTED to be in the USCGA and were willing to put up with whatever you thought was required to remain so. Iraqi's do not want to be in prison nor are they making themselves the victims of torture so they may continue to enjoy the honor of being imprisoned or the subsequent salary, social standing or job skills acquired as a result. You were not coerced to jump through all the hoops you jumped through to get into the USCGA. An Iraqi walking down the road minding his own business doesn't one day decide that he'd like to spend some time in Abu Garhib, stop the nearest soldiers and request they take him there. The soldiers don't tell him before he can take advantage of the lessons he will learn at Abu Gahrib he must first file a formal application and weather a rigorous selection process.

There is quite a difference between willing subordinating ones self and being tortured. Comprehending that an Orange is spherical really doesn't increase the comprehension of what a basketball is. Suggesting that an Orange and a Basketball have even remotely substantial equivalent form or function because both are Spheres and both are Orange is fallacious to the extreme. Purporting the validity of such a comparison hardly serves to make clear the very real and distinctive differences between each of these objects....quite the contrary, in fact.

While I respect you immensely I find that drawing parallels between hazing and torture is fallacious at best and very, very dangerous at worst. It cannot and should not be allowed or condoned.

RC

[TahitiNut]

72. Well, isn't that like saying one can't get AIDS from straight sex?

Sound like an extreme simile? Yeah, I suppose so. :shrug:

Please note that all the participants in the Stanford Prison Experiment were legally able to quit at any time. They were student volunteers.

Does that invalidate the lessons learned? Nope. I don't think so.

Again (and it's really sad I'd have to repeat this), I'm not drawing a moral, ethical, or legal equivalency between the crimes against humanity at Abu Ghraib and the most extreme (in terms of prolonged and promulgated) hazing of which I'm personally aware. I am, however, saying that I can use my personal experience, both as a hazee and as a hazer, to better understand the psychological factors at play.

You might notice that I left the USCGA toward the end of my 2nd year. The major reason I did so was my resistance to doing hazing - as a hazer/upperclassman. Either despite my experience or because of it, I wasn't able to "get with the program." I tried (wow, did I!) ... but I just couldn't figure out (stubborn, I guess) how to do it "right." It felt very, very awkward and "not me." I felt the same awkwardness in my fraternity. I felt the same awkwardness when I lived in the segregated south. I felt the same awkwardness in Viet Nam. (I could never work up the same groupthink attitudes toward the 'enemy.') I felt the same awkwardness when, as an employee, the other white males would casually congregate and speak disparagingly of certain 'minorities.' I don't know why, but I now feel it's OK that I didn't (and don't) "fit in" even though not "fitting in" was the most usual nightmare of my life.

So ... I do take some lessons from my experience. Yes, I do make comparisons. I'll continue to do so ... without any inference that there's an equivalence.


On edit: BTW, did you know that cadets are in the military and subject to the UCMJ? Did you know cadets can be court-martialed for disobeying an order? for going AWOL? Did you know that "blanket parties" were not uncommon? The situation is a bit more complex than most appreciate.

[RapidCreek]

77. The thing is they were volunteers not arrestees.

That's the very real difference. I can't believe a person as eloquent and intelligent as yourself seems so incapable of making that distinction. Nobody coerced them to participate in a Prison Experiment. They volunteered. The inhabitants of Abu Gahrib did not volunteer to take up residence there. They did not ask to be there in any way shape or form.

Yes I am well aware that blanket parties were not uncommon. I put an end to several conspiracies to hold them. I did so because they were not lawful and the "order" to give one was not protected by the UCMJ...a point which I made effusively clear to those who advocated that course of action. People, whom I shall add, outranked me in some instances. I served enlisted active duty in the Navy...and I was exposed to several cadets....and yes they, like myself were subject to the UCMJ. Interestingly many in the hierarchy of the military and its derivatives rely on mass ignorance of the UCMJ while wielding their own abridged version as authority to give unlawful orders and direct the actions of those who suffered that mass ignorance.

One case comes specifically to mind. A Master Chief was molesting female recruits at ONTC and I, a third class petty officer burned his ass...severly. I was a master at arms in the galley at which these recruits ate their meals. One day I noticed a recruit sitting at a table ignoring her food crying hysterically. I asked her what was wrong and she refused to tell me. I asked why she refused to tell me and she said she was ordered not to. After about a half hour....a period of time over which the rest of her company left the galley and returned to their quarters, I finally managed to get her to open up. I did so by explaining what was and was not a lawful order. Not before, her desire to leave with her company forced me to order her to to stay seated. I explained that I would take the heat if she got into trouble. She relayed that she and nine other girls were being regularly molested by, and forced to have sex with, this Master Chief at their company. Shortly thereafter, I received a telephone call from this Master Chief asking where his recruit was. I told him she and I were on our way to discuss a problem she reported to me with a Commander, one who was in charge of the Galley and at the top of my relative chain of command. He "ordered" me to cease and desist and return his recruit to her company. He asked me if I new who he was and what rank he held. He informed me that he was giving me a direct order. I replied that I did...but under the circumstances which were reported by his recruit his order was not enforceable under the UCMJ, quite the contrary in fact. I further instructed him that should he have a problem with my refusal to follow his order that he should take it up with my superior, a Commander, at which point it got REAL quiet on the other end of the line...and he hung up. To my knowledge this Master Chief is now a resident of Ft. Leavenworth Kansas. I made that happen. I made it happen because I knew what was a lawful order and what was not a lawful order. Their was a similar incident which I tackled...not involving sex but physical abuse, entrapment, exposure of records without consent and conspiracy...which occurred a year later but I'm not going to go into that. Suffice it to say, in both instances those whom I went up against out numbered me and out ranked me and assumed I was incapable of going to the library and reading the UCMJ or hadn't taken the time to do so already. I succeeded because I was protected by the UCMJ and they were not. Those who went to the brig, got demoted and or reprimanded called me a Sea Lawyer. Well that I may be....but I'm a Sea Lawyer with a commendation and an honorable discharge who knew more about the law than they ever hoped that I would.

I left the Navy two and a half years into my enlistment with an honorable discharge. For much the same reasons you did. Before I left however, I was offered an appointment to OCS and encouraged to stay. I was told by the folks in JAG I was the sort of individual that the Navy needed more of. I respectfully declined, stating that I had observed much to much that was wrong with the Navy...and not very much that was right about it. I pointed out that I didn't like the stacked deck nature of the US military...or the rather hollow expectation that enlisted people should have some sort of innate knowledge of the UCMJ. I explained that I appreciated the offer but had a bad taste in my mouth and just needed to leave....and I did...on very good terms. I suppose deep down I left the military because I have a very difficult time giving respect to someone who has not and does not earn my respect. In short, I don't believe respect is ordained or bestowed upon one via the passage of time....I believe it is something which one should come by as a result of his or her actions, thought processes and over all deportment...regardless of that persons "station" in life. I was, in the military willing to tolerate those of a higher rank and follow their orders as long as they were lawful. Whether I respected them or not was another thing all together. This was my problem with the military...all to often it's artifices were designed to impede recognition of the legality of certain sorts of behavior by those of higher rank. These artifices seemed intentional and unduly dangerous to walk under.

In short, situations are as complex as we allow them to be. Often times their complexity is nothing more than a thin facade shored up by our own ignorance, apathy, lack of pride, need to belong and fear. Those who depend on this facade know this and depend upon it.

I know why you feel ok that you didn't and don't fit in. It ain't a mystery to me. You are not an ignorant, apathetic, prideless joiner who lives in fear of being ostracized. At least you aren't any more. People like you and I scare the shit out of the Rumsfelds of the world. For if the world were predominantly populated by people like ourselves Don Rumsfeld would be relegated to cleaning toilets some place. It is difficult to discern and finally realize the comfort of not fitting in. Actually it is hard to recognize that you do fit in...but you fit in with those like yourself...who feel no need to give that group to which they belong a name...or a secret hand shake or a uniform or hat with a tassel on top. It is difficult to ascend above a natural acquiescence to our baser instincts...but that like other higher order animals is the secret and measure of our success as a species.

All that said. I appreciate that you learned something as you threw off the yolk of group think. I appreciate that you were able to glean what you believe to be incites into the minds of a torturer and his victim through participation in hazing, though I don't believe you really have any idea of what occurs on an emotional level to a person who is forcibly detained, beaten, raped and abused with the very real possibility of death. The only people who have any idea of that are people it has happened to. I'll accept that you are not suggesting that hazing and torture are in any way equitable. The thing is...is that in one way they are ...hazing is not harmless...it is a testament both by the hazer and the very willing hazee to a particularly sick mindset. It is a ritualistic acceptance of domination through violence and the sort of hollow respect achieved by ones willingness to adhere to this mindset relative to time. Hazing is sick and torture is sick and on that level they share a characteristic.

shit....I'm really tired of talking about this.

As far as your headline....Well, isn't that like saying one can't get AIDS from straight sex? No it isn't. It's like saying one has a choice whether one engages in straight or gay sex and all that either include unless one is raped.

RC

[Liberal Veteran]

24. Humiliation of civilian prisoners is in violation of treaty we signed.

As a US representative, making excuses for a blatant violation of US law is disgusting.

[klook]

26. So, Steve, which is it? "Little more than hazing" or "appalling abuse"???

From King's web site:

Washington, D.C.— In recent days, the actions of a very small number of U.S. soldiers have marked our country with a scarlet letter. This is isolated behavior that can, must, and will be investigated by the Pentagon under the direction of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld. The handful of soldiers who committed this appalling abuse are not representative of the U.S. military and will be punished for their crimes.

(emphasis mine)

[4dsc]

35. Where his email address??

I noticed that its not on his website...

[klook]

39. Email address and good ideas

See post #30 in this thread (thanks, Mel!) --
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=554491&mesg_id=554656&page=

[snippy]

42. So he is a liar as well as a Satanic asshole. Does he have an opponent

in November? If so, can the democrat win?

[klook]

46. Joyce Schulte

She's not the only Dem running for King's seat, but appears to have the best chance of winning.

See article about Joyce Schulte's run, and her campaign web site.

[yellowcanine]

28. That RW talking point is soooo last week. The new pictures and evidence

that culpability goes way up the chain of command for relaxing interrogation rules to the point where the Geneva Convention standards for prisoners were violated has flanked the "Outrage about the Outrage" blathering.

[Mel]

30. Here's what we can do

A) Contact King and tell him what we think of his BS
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]


check this out
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11083291&BRD=2554&PAG=461&dept_id=507134&rfi=6

He criticized Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry for giving aid to the enemy for his criticism of President Bush's foreign policy, including the war in Iraq.

"Kerry is anti-military," King said.

He supports the elimination of the Internal Revenue Service and the creation of a national consumption tax at the retail level, King said.

He was elected to the House of Representatives in November 2002.</snip>

B) King's up for re-election I say we make sure that doesn't happen!:bounce:
Let's:kick:
Joyce Schulte is running against King here's a link to her web site
http://www.schulteforcongress.com/

I say we support her, send her donations and let her know that King is out of step not only with Iowans but with Americans we don't support torture and we don't consider it to be frat pranks!
http://www.schulteforcongress.com/

[klook]

43. I just sent Joyce Schulte's campaign 50 bucks!

Thanks for the link, Mel. And thanks to 4dsc for informing us what a schmuck Steve King is.

[eyesroll]

31. You know, Mr. King, hazing is illegal in Iowa:

708.1 Hazing
     * 1a. A person commits an act of hazing when the person
       intentionally or recklessly engages in any act or acts involving
       forced activity which endangers the physical health or safety of a
       student for the purpose of initiation or admission into, or
       affiliation with, any organization in connection with a school,
       college, or university. Prohibited acts include, but are not
       limited to, any brutality of physical nature such as whipping,
       forced confinement, or any other forced activity which endangers
       the health or safety of the student.
     * 1b. For the purpose of this section, "forced activity" means any
       activity which is a condition of initiation or admission into, or
       affiliation with, an organization regardless of a student's
       willingness to participate in the activity.
     * 2 A person who commits an act of hazing is guilty of a simple
       misdemeanor.
     * 3 A person who commits an act of hazing which causes serious
       bodily injury to another is guilty of a serious misdemeanor and
       could be referred to civil authorities.
     * 4 Display of materials and use of language
     * 5 Public posting or utterance of obscene language, or the display
       of lewd or pornographic material or erotic art is not allowed on
       campus.
http://www.stophazing.org/laws/ia_law.htm

And, Mr. King, whether or not you consider the abuse serious, it violates the Geneva Convention, which, since we signed it, we are bound to:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Pentagon (news - web sites) officials conceded on Thursday some of the interrogation methods approved for use by the U.S. military on Iraqi prisoners may violate the Geneva Convention governing treatment of war prisoners.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20040513/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_dc

So, Mr. King, are you saying we shouldn't follow laws?

[klook]

32. Good work!!

This is the thing I've never understood about this puny "no worse than hazing" pseudo-defense. Who says hazing is OK??

[Ilsa]

33. Oh well, in that case, I guess the military won't mind

if other nations that capture US military personnel employ these same hazing standards to our troops. Thanks for clearing that up, Rep King.

[Beware the Beast Man]

34. This is becoming the mantra

of all the repukes it seems. Check out the thread I posted earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=175&topic_id=630&mesg_id=630

[Norbert]

37. Duh! Hello! Stevie! Are you there. This isn't college life.

This is a prison for God sake. The Iraqi detainees are unwilling participants. They get no membership card. They get no pledge pin.

Jeez. And I bet he got bent out of shape when the high school girls did their hazing thing last year.

Must be hard to find good help in Washington D. C. nowdays.

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[leesa]

47. Good. Keep saying this. Every time they say it, it puts another nail

in the GOP coffin.

What appallingly cruel and brutal people these are!

[74dodgedart]

48. "Hazing" is illegal in most states. So is assault, sexual assault, etc

What a moron

[LeftHander]

49. Letter I sent to Congressmen

Your esteemed colleague Rep. Steve King from Iowa recently compared the abuse that P.O. W. detainees allegedly suffered under U.S custody to "hazing".

“The dismembered and charred corpses of American contractors dangling over the Euphrates River in comparison to the abuse committed by a few soldiers at Abu Ghraib are like the crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer compared to those of Heidi Fleiss. What amounts to hazing is not even in the same ballpark as mass murder." - Steve King (R) Iowa, May 13 2004.


The torture of P.O.W.s is wrong and is never justified under ANY circumstances and should never be taken lightly. It certainly is not equal to hazing. "Hazing" is a voluntary act where the person being hazed allows the acts to be inflicted upon them as a sign of solidarity. I do not condone hazing personally and find it degrading, violent and criminal. We have seen the criminality of hazing in recent videos of American High Schools students.

Steve King's statements are completly out of line and as my duely elected representative you should take steps to publically condemn his statement. It is divisive and non-productive and does nothing bring to prevent or prosecute such abuse from occuring in the future.

The last thing the American people, our soldiers and people of Iraq need now is lawmakers making light of damage caused by these allegations of abuse and torture by U.S. Military Intelligence, Military Police and Other Govenment Agencies.

[4dsc]

51. Here's what rightie has said

When I ask him why he didn't repudiate Mr King's statement: Why should I repudiate them? He didn't say anything wrong. If he's taking about hazing, even you've posted that hazing is illegal, so by your own words he's saying that the abuse was illegal.

[funnymanpants]

73. Don't use hazing analogy

While the above letter is well-worded and forceful, it seems on some level to concede that the treatment was like hazing. This allows the people who want to apologize for torture a rhetorical victory.

I know that hazing can be brutal. But I think the treatment in Abu Ghraib goes way beyond any enforced initiation ceremony. One of the prisoners who was in the human pyramid described his treatment. He was kept in solitary confinement for something like 20 days. He was shackled to his cell for 23 hours a day. He, along with other prisoners, have stated that a beating would have been better, because a beating would heal. The trauma he has undergone never will.

Personally, I am going to try to never start debating anyone who tries to apologize for the torture. It is like debating if the holocaust was justified; just by engaging someone, you legitimize his debate.

[oldcoot]

52. Release all the photos and all of the tapes, now!

If it is just a hazing prank, then it is really no big deal to release all the photos and tapes now.

[Francine Frensky]

53. Much Better Analogy -- Fallujah = black man dragged behind truck

Fallujah, the four on the bridge, was a hate crime, committed by group of angry young men who hate america. For us to go in and flatten that city (THAT"S what we're missing with this photo-distraction right now, the fact that the US is covering up war crimes committed in that city), is equivalent to bombing Texas after those two rednecks dragged the black guy behind their truck (also a hate crime). Hate crimes should be prosecuted by local police, not the military.

The logic behind those equating Fallujah to prison abuses don't realize their "logic" goes the other way too, if the prison stuff was "isolated individuals" then Fallujah was too and that city didn't need to be bombed.

The main point is really not how the abuse "plays" over here, whether Mrs. Jones in Peoria is shocked by the photos, but how it plays over there. Doesn't anyone remember that part about winning the hearts and minds????

[cothomps]

55. King Opponent Gene Blanshan Responds

Gene's Response to King's Statements on Iraq Prisoner Abuse

For Immediate Release:

In a recent written statement Congressman Steve King compared the abuse in the Abu Ghraib prison to “little more than hazing”. With that statement he sets himself apart from the Bush administration, from the military, from religious leaders across this country and the world, and the rest of Iowa’s Congressional delegation. When Congressman King downplays the abuse to the level of college hazing he demonstrates that his extremism has placed him outside his own political party and the religious community. His statement underscores the fact that he doesn’t understand the ramifications of the events in the Abu Ghraib.

The acts of abuse have put our soldiers and sailors that are serving in harm’s way in even greater danger. With every passing week the perception that Americans are not liberators, but rather occupiers, has grown in the minds of the Iraqi citizens. Events in the Abu Ghraib prison only serve to reinforce that perception. Soon even Iraqi citizens who welcomed our arrival will be taking up arms against our troops or giving aid to those that will.

The United States is the undisputed world leader in economic and military strength. If we fail to combine those strengths with moral leadership, we will be perceived by the world as nothing more than a wealthy bully. Yes, the events in the prison do pale next to barbaric acts committed by others, but as a world leader we must hold ourselves to a higher standard. Once we begin to minimize or justify our actions by comparing them to the acts of barbarians, we have forfeited the high ground of a world leader.

One of the goals stated by the Bush administration for invading Iraq was the establishment a democracy in the Mid-East. Iraq would then become a template for other countries in the region. The success of the plan relies on winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi citizens. Many of those abused in the prison were guilty of nothing. They were simply caught up in a wide sweep conducted by the military. They should have been quickly interrogated and released. It is doubtful the seeds of democracy and rule of law will grow in the hearts and minds of those abused and their families. More than likely only anger, resentment, and revenge will take root.

Congressman King, this was not hazing. They were prisoners under American supervision. They could not quit the team or leave the fraternity. We dehumanized them and we will be sending them back on the streets. The ramifications of the events in the prison will echo through the Muslim world for years.


Gene Blanshan
5135 Panorama Drive
Panora, Iowa 50216
641-755-4154
Democratic Candidate for Iowa’s 5th Congressional District

http://blanshanforiowa.com/index.pl/responsetoking

(Joyce Schulte's site has also been posted - the 5th District has three people in the primary to go up against King - Blanshan is the only one with a response on his website...)

[klook]

60. Good one

Somehow I couldn't find anything on Blanshan when researching King's opponents. (Duh.) He looks like a good one, possibly better than Joyce Schulte. Thanks for the info. (not that I can do much about it, not being an Iowa resident).

[4dsc]

62. Not one mention of this on the evening news

I scanned the 3 news outslets here in Des Moines and I did not hear word one about Mr Kings remarks.. I could have missed any news but something tell me I didn't..

[truthisfreedom]

58. sounds like rep. king needs to go back to school. these a**holes are

popping up everywhere... take names. they are the enemy.

[Disturbed]

59. Fascist Twit

The reason that the Pentagon now does not want to release any photos or videos is that this evidence goes way beyond humiliation tactics and goes into war crimes and the policy set by Gen. Sanchez, who is accountable.

[uncertainty1999]

65. Frat boys should take a stand against being smeared like this!

[lebkuchen]

67. Call him

If you have any affiliation with the military whatsoever, use it.

[RapidCreek]

68. Does this mean he won't take offense if I make him strip at gun point

and jamb a broom stick up his ass? Maybe someone should ask him.

RC

[abracadabra]

82. Do unto others--is that so complex of an idea?

I thought that was the "Christian" thing to do--
Called the "Golden Rule" in first grade...
What the hell is so hard to understand about it???

I AGREE- anyone who refuses to understand it should experience it firsthand and then and only then might something possibly click for realization to occur.
If you don't want someone shoving things up your ass then don't allow or encourage people(guards at prisons) to do it.
If you don't want someone to rape your sister or mother then don't allow troop guards to do it (and make pornos of it).
Simple as that.

Are Americans the stupidest people on earth? or is it just our leaders who we "allow" to remain in control-==
I'll tell you there are those in control here who aren't playing with a full deck and if we allow it then we as a group are accomplice.

By the way if we don't want to use the Golden Rule we have to realize that many there in Iraq who live by
"An Eye for an Eye"
This in mind, people will be beaten to death,asses will be stuffed/women will be raped(American ones)
the choice is ours-

Let's remove all of these ignorant leaders who support the type of ideaology that
THERE is a RIGHT Time to do the WRONG thing--
WTF!
There is never EVER a right time to do the wrong thing--
PERIOD !!

It's not our oil --It's not our country--Iour troops have absolutely no business there(except the oil business)-
Let the Corporations use their OWN armies of highly paid Mercs.
OUR Troops Home Now !!!!

[funnymanpants]

74. Sleep deprivation is the worst torture

One of the problems with the coverage of the Abu Gharaib scandal is that most people don't realize that the worst form of torture does not have to involve pulling out finger nails or the wrack.

The worse form of torture is sleep deprivation, as the Nobel-prize winning author Solzhenitsyn explains in his masterpiece *The Archipelago Gulag,* a work recounting his own experience of torture and slavery in the Stalinist prison system.

According to Solzhenitsyn, all the torture devices of the medieval ages were absolutely superfluous, because no human being could endure sleep deprivation. When prisoners in the Gulag were told of prisoners who heroically resisted torture under Hitler, they were unimpressed. They just didn't use the right technique, the Stalinist-prisoners said. The Stalinist prisoners knew that sleep deprivation would crack any human being every time in the most brutal way.

So when the likes of Rep Steve King start dismissing torture at Abu Ghairb in their flippant way, it appalls me. The techniques used at Abu Ghairb (and at other us prisons such as Guantanamo) are some of the worst you can subject a human being to. We don't need to see proof of cigarette burn marks, though we do have evidence that at least one prisoner died from a beating.

[CRK7376]

75. Jackass can

take my place the next time my unit rotates into Iraq/Afghanistan...Let him deal with the local populace that have lost nearly all interest or respect for US personnel...SOme of us actually do good overthere and try to help the less fortunate. Then idiots, leaders starting with Bush and going down to England/Garner... and their peers and subordinates make life absolutely miserable for those that are controlled, know right from wrong, understand the Geneva COnventions etc....IDIOT REPUBs...hurry up NOV so we can elect a new leader....

[peacetalksforall]

76. Hazing is a voluntary endeavor for social and monetary reasons on a

short and long term basis in a free world.

There is nothing voluntary about losing freedom and being tortured by representatives of a country who took it on their own to take over your country to free you and accuse you of a crime, detain you, and keep you from living with your family and supporting yourself and them.

Idiots.

[Hobarticus]

78. For all Iowans, I apologize...

I fired off a nasty note to his office after reading this on Friday. He doesn't speak for all of us.

[4dsc]

81. Who does he speak for??

I find it very interesting that republicans in the state of Iowa have NOT condemned his remark.. They have been quite silient on this subject..

[abracadabra]

79. let's compare who did what to whom

"the abuse cannot compare to what Iraqi insurgents have done to Americans."=---
???WTF?
I am an American(family here since the 1700's in Virginia) and these guys who support torture do not represent Americans.

What Bush's henchmen(or so called Americans)have ORDERED the lowest of their ranks to do is seen as "justified" somehow...?

40,000 bombs dropppen during the invasion?
if one Iraqi died with each bomb it would have "beheaded, mangled and killed at least 40,00 people(and they have said they do not keep track) that's just if each bomb killed one person--some killed none but some killed hundreds at a time--
beheaded them !!!
men, women, children, babies, dogs cats, elderly... and their homes--
beheaded thousands upon thousands.
And the tanks ordered to fire into neighborhoods!
Beheaded and mangled so many innocent people!

What's worse?
5 men beheading one man or two men, pilot and co pilot, beheading and disintegrating hundreds with the push of a buttton?

Insurgents?
I thought they said it was A Q. that beheaded Berg.

Insurgents aren't insurging--they are defending their country from inv aders who want to enslave them after they kill off a considerable portion of the population.

Rape Murder, Torture--all documented in the recent prison scandal--
Is that Hazing?

Americans attackers are insurgents and apparently our LEADERS don't care who the hell gets in their way be it women children babies--they order U.S. troops to have NO MERCY !
They teach the soldiers to HATE the"enemy"
So now the Iraqis are ALL the
"enemy"??
I thought they were wanting to free them. Now they are the ENEMY.
90% of these imprisoned turn out to be innocent citizens--
are they really the "enemy"?
The American POW's were treated kindly according to their own accounts.
I heard an interview yesterday with one soldier who was captured during the invasion who cannot believe the Americans would do that when the Iraqis had treated them so well and gave them medical attention etc.,when they were held.

Race WAR
REIGIOUS WAR.
BLIND Bigotry is what I would call that statement made by that Republican member of our own U S Senate.
The Senate should not be filled with racists and bigots who lump all Muslims together as Insurgents and legalize brutality toward any and all Iraqis--this guy should be asked to leave his office immediately-
Along with Rumsfeldt and all the other greedy bastards who have little regard for non american human life and the utmost regard for the almighty dollar--mmmm that sweet crude--bet they can just taste it now--
Not our country--not our oil--Troops home NOW !!!.

[Classical_Liberal]

80. He is Iowa's own Inholfe

He is probably a one termer though.

[Blasphemer]

83. This is why ALL photos MUST be released

This BS talking point needs to be stopped in it's tracks. How convenient that the Pentagon holds back the worst of the pictures while the pukes run around talking about "fraternity pranks" and "hazing". :mad: