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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:46 AM
Original message
The Roots of Torture
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989481/

The road to Abu Ghraib began after 9/11, when Washington wrote new rules to fight a new kind of war. A NEWSWEEK investigation

May 24 - It's not easy to get a member of Congress to stop talking. Much less a room full of them. But as a small group of legislators watched the images flash by in a small, darkened hearing room in the Rayburn Building last week, a sickened silence descended. There were 1,800 slides and several videos, and the show went on for three hours. The nightmarish images showed American soldiers at Abu Ghraib Prison forcing Iraqis to masturbate. American soldiers sexually assaulting Iraqis with chemical light sticks. American soldiers laughing over dead Iraqis whose bodies had been abused and mutilated. There was simply nothing to say. "It was a very subdued walk back to the House floor," said Rep. Jane Harman, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "People were ashen."

The White House put up three soldiers for court-martial, saying the pictures were all the work of a few bad-apple MPs who were poorly supervised. But evidence was mounting that the furor was only going to grow and probably sink some prominent careers in the process. Senate Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner declared the pictures were the worst "military misconduct" he'd seen in 60 years, and he planned more hearings. Republicans on Capitol Hill were notably reluctant to back Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. And NEWSWEEK has learned that U.S. soldiers and CIA operatives could be accused of war crimes. Among the possible charges: homicide involving deaths during interrogations. "The photos clearly demonstrate to me the level of prisoner abuse and mistreatment went far beyond what I expected, and certainly involved more than six or seven MPs," said GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham, a former military prosecutor. He added: "It seems to have been planned."

Indeed, the single most iconic image to come out of the abuse scandal—that of a hooded man standing naked on a box, arms outspread, with wires dangling from his fingers, toes and penis—may do a lot to undercut the administration's case that this was the work of a few criminal MPs. That's because the practice shown in that photo is an arcane torture method known only to veterans of the interrogation trade. "Was that something that dreamed up by herself? Think again," says Darius Rejali, an expert on the use of torture by democracies. "That's a standard torture. It's called 'the Vietnam.' But it's not common knowledge. Ordinary American soldiers did this, but someone taught them."

Who might have taught them? Almost certainly it was their superiors up the line. Some of the images from Abu Ghraib, like those of naked prisoners terrified by attack dogs or humiliated before grinning female guards, actually portray "stress and duress" techniques officially approved at the highest levels of the government for use against terrorist suspects. It is unlikely that President George W. Bush or senior officials ever knew of these specific techniques, and late last —week Defense spokesman Larry DiRita said that "no responsible official of the Department of Defense approved any program that could conceivably have been intended to result in such abuses." But a NEWSWEEK investigation shows that, as a means of pre-empting a repeat of 9/11, Bush, along with Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft, signed off on a secret system of detention and interrogation that opened the door to such methods. It was an approach that they adopted to sidestep the historical safeguards of the Geneva Conventions, which protect the rights of detainees and prisoners of war. In doing so, they overrode the objections of Secretary of State Colin Powell and America's top military lawyers—and they left underlings to sweat the details of what actually happened to prisoners in these lawless places. While no one deliberately authorized outright torture, these techniques entailed a systematic softening up of prisoners through isolation, privations, insults, threats and humiliation—methods that the Red Cross concluded were "tantamount to torture."

more

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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. It can't happen here
And if it does, somehow it doesn't represent US.

What have we become? It was clear from the beginning of their war of terra that they would justify anything.

Our soldiers became animals, carrying out the policies of their superiors, because the policies were inhumane. Somewhere, maybe here, I heard the phrase "moral waterloo." I think that pretty much sums it up. All these self-righteous Republicans are the ones standing naked now -- bare-assed naked in their hypocrisy and evil.



http://www.wgoeshome.com
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It can't happen here?
Torture is not that uncommon a practice in American prisons and it's been going on for decades. Time to open your eyes to reality.



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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. True and especially in Texas.
Methinks it is time to evaluate how we treat ALL prisoners.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Some Chicago police tortured people into saying they committed murder
And after these fuckheads got false confessions from these innocent people they were sent to death row. It is well documented.

Don

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I have
a family member who had the same thing happen in Newark NJ in the 70's.

Fortunately the victim was totally exonerated in court.



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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. A Republican governor in Illinois emptied out death row over this
The cop who was supervising the torture under his watch is now playing golf everyday and enjoying his retirement in Florida on his police pension.

Don

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. That's one of the main reasons
Edited on Sun May-16-04 10:43 AM by DoYouEverWonder
why I oppose the death penalty. Why too many of the people on death row are innocent. And killing one innocent person is way too many.

DNA testing is starting to help, but of course Asscrack is trying to block that.

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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. In the immortal words of the Don (Scalia)...
"Mere factual innocence is no reason not to carry out a death sentence properly reached."
---Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, First Clinically Insane Member of the Supreme Court


Thanks to last night's "quote" thread...
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. This Is a Slightly Different Take from the Sy Hersh Story
discussed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x557424

the sad, funny, horrific thing about the Newsweek story is that it's being published 2 and 1/2 years after the fact that everyone knew the reason the prisoners were shipped to Gitmo was to keep them in a zone where we wouldn't be restricted by the Geneva Convention. Everyone knew this and no one in the mainstream media would say a goddam peep except to start the most tentative dialogs about torture.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Nothing new here, in fact even congress allowed it...
US interrogators turn to 'torture lite'

The second half of our investigation finds America bending the rules in the wake of September 11

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Saturday January 25, 2003
The Guardian

The United States is condoning the torture and illegal interrogation of prisoners held in the wake of September 11, in defiance of international law and its own constitution, according to lawyers, former US intelligence officers and human rights groups.
They claim prisoners have been beaten, hooded and had painkillers withheld.

Some prisoners inside American penal institutions and detention camps have been subjected to interrogation techniques which do not leave injuries, but which lawyers consider to be abusive. Others have been sent to countries where electric shocks and more conventional forms of torture have been used, according to the claims.


<SNIP>

At a hearing last September of the House and Senate intelligence committees, Cofer Black, then head of the CIA counterterrorist centre, said of the treatment of suspects: "This is a very highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know is there was a 'before 9/11', and there was an 'after 9/11'. After 9/11 the gloves come off."

One official, who has supervised the capture and transfer of prisoners, told the Washington Post last year: "If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job. I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,882002,00.html

So tell me, are the Bush admin and military/intelligence solely to blame for torture being used, or do the House and Senate intelligence committees deserve some of the blame for not stopping it TWO YEARS AGO!
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Don_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. Rumsfeld Authorized It
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nothing has hurt Bush more than the torture pics and the media will
be trying desperately to normalize and justify torture.

Yesterday, the NYT ran a story about how difficult it is for all the people who moved to the US for asylum from political torture to hear these stories.

They're suggesting that maybe we shouldn't see the pictures because they hurt people in the US (which is one of the rare times the major media gives the feelings of non-white, non-American born residents of the US so much weight).

There are going to more stories like that.

This one is pretty reprehensible. Nesweek is trying to make torture seem OK because we're doing it for 9/11.

I don't think 9/11 has turned us into animals.

And it's pretty rich for them to make that conneciton since nobody can really tell us who did 9/11 and how they did it, and there hasn't been a single arrest or conviction of anyone closely connected to 9/11.

Thank you torture for helping us get answers, eh?

And what did the torture achieve in Iraq? Any arrests? Any victories? Any uprisings suppressed? How much Freedom did the tortures deliver for Iraq?
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. finally in print......let's see what happens from here
They all need to go at once.
Yes they have said things in their speeches throughout the years that told people this was happening...but congress continued to roll over dead for them. This is a failure of ALL executive branches.

And right now the judical branch has before it the paper for allowing a president unlimited rights to jail people without due process and what will they do with that.

If it had not been for the photos, no one believed this was happening. People and human rights organizations have been throwing up flags since afgan....and no one in this country in a position of authority did anything......

No we all have to live with the fact that we are LESSSSSSSSS safe then before 9/11 and that we are no wanted in other countries based on the torture and atrocities done by this administration.

They all make laws and rules that allowed them to shirt around all these...so I am not sure what legal means we have of getting these guys. They have been covering their tracks as they go.... making up rules and signing off on them and having legal counsel sign off on things and making contracts......all the way up to the president. He has signed off on and obviously knows about this because it was in his State of the Union address.....yet everyone spent more time on some other 16 words that I don't even remember what that was about...
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. Welcome to the Gulag
If they get away with this, they will move on to the next step, imprisoning, torturing and killing their opponents at home without due process of law.

If the Supreme Court doesn't speak to this soon, we are lost as a free people.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Amazing that this country is even suggesting that torture is acceptable.
When I listened to callers on "Washington Journal" this morning,...I was seriously concerned by how many (particularly on the "support bush line") thought torture was okay or denied the actions constituted torture or suggested their are instances where torture is acceptable. I experienced a moment where I felt like I wasn't quite awake,...stuck between a nightmare and a dream.

What has happened to this country? Have a good chunk of our citizens lost all sense of moral competency? Have they forgotten that every single citizen is obliged to live by the rule of law? Geez.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thank 'NYPD Blue', 'Dirty Harry' and many other cop shows/movies.
I stopped watching NYPD Blue when I noticed that the main characters always beat and tortured cooperation and confessions out of the perps who were 'playing the system.' Y'know, the technicalities of Miranda Rights, Civil Rights, US Constitution, Congress, Amnesty Int'l, Red Cross.

That's what the phrase "defending the US without getting a permission slip" is supposed to encourage:

Reckless and Righteous Disregard of the Law By The Master Race.

FUHRER KNOWS BEST applauded by TV NATION.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. Imho and life experiences there are criminal cults known to law
enforcement which had been blocked by nameless individuals and agencies citing "national security" to cover-up what is known as SRA/Satanic Ritual Abuse, largely the legacy of Col. Michael Aquino of US Army MI and the Defense Intelligence Agency.

When not on duty working for national security, Col. Aquino was a priest in the Church of Satan, he exploited division within the Church of Satan to replace it with his own cult/religion the Temple of Set in 1975.


SRA is on some of the videos being held by the Pentagon and is being prosecuted, that is a growing rumor-that is why the evidence should be available on demand by all adult US citizens that seek redress of grievances under the laws and Constitution of the United States of America-not PATRIOT ACT or HOMELAND SECURITY which are now questionable imho.

As an American citizen under Wisconsin Law and the US Constitution I would like to state to the world that there are many living witnesses and survivors of SRA sanctioned by individuals and entities claiming authority under national security to prevent prosecution of unbelievable crimes that have corrupted and harmed US.

I must state for the world record, that at all levels of society here these criminal cultists were part of the biggest "secret" of all in the national security community MKULTRA mind control.

That said I'm gonna have a nice brunch.
:hi:
NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. So how does this work exactly?
Is Rumfilled running a satanic cult in the midst of a Fundie Xtian administration?
Are Bush and his whole lot of Fundies really working for Satan?

(The 80's SRA accusations appear to have been disinformation by
some "xtians" to divert attention from what their own clergy
was up to. It worked for a while.)

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wow!! what an article, and top of Seymour Hersh's article!
Well now, what does junior have to say about all his Generals and his lying fucking Secretary of Defense?

Is there a cell waiting for junior at the Hague?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Uncle rummy says
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. 1800 slides and videos as well
Man that was some busy seven bad apples. If they took turns, that is about 250 photos per bad apple, and a few videos.

"The photos clearly demonstrate to me the level of prisoner abuse and mistreatment went far beyond what I expected, and certainly involved more than six or seven MPs," said GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham, a former military prosecutor. He added: "It seems to have been planned."


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. This is an EXCELLENT article. I hope multitudes read it. Thanks. n/t
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. Our torture wasn't as bad as Saddam's, but give us a chance, we've only
been there a year!
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. Outstanding article........along with Hersh's article this is a must read
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