Fidel Castro can live to 140, doctor says

[wubbathompson]

Date: May 19 2004


Fidel Castro's doctor denied rumours that the president's health was ailing, saying today the 77-year-old leader is in excellent health and claiming he can live at least 140 years.

Dr Eugenio Selman Housein said Mr Castro continues to run and swim and pointed to the president's participation in a massive protest march on Friday.

Castro led the march past the US diplomatic mission in Havana to protest US policy against the island's communist government for about 800 metres, walking slowly and with some difficulty.

"He is formidably well," Mr Housein told reporters at a conference on "satisfactory longevity" in the capital city. The press "is always speculating about something, that he had a heart attack once, that he had cancer, some neurological problem."

But Mr Castro is healthy enough to live at least 140 years, said Mr Selman, who heads a "120-years Club" that promotes wholesome habits for the elderly.

"I am not exaggerating," said Mr Selman, who believes people are capable of living five times the number of years it takes for the human body to fully grow - which he said is around 25 years.

Cuba's life expectancy, which is 76.6 years, is one of Latin America's highest, and just below that of the United States, which is 77.4 years, according to the CIA World Factbook.

Mr Selman is never far from Mr Castro and marched near the leader on Friday. He is one of 250 medical experts from Latin American and the United States participating in the longevity conference, which runs to Friday.

AP

http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2004/05/18/1084783511071.html

This is just funny

[David__77]

1. Wouldn't that be interesting!

He could outlast many more US presidents. I have no doubt he will outlive this Bush and whoever comes next.

[stopthegop]

2. bad news for the Cuban people...eom

[htuttle]

3. ...in Miami. (n/t)

[Tinoire]

8. Have you been to Cuba or are you content to repeat US

right-wing propaganda about the place? The Cuban people are in no rush to see the old colonialists come back.

[stopthegop]

9. the one's trying to cross the straits to Florida on rafts seem

to be unhappy with the current rulers....

[htuttle]

11. A lot more people risk life and limb to get here from Mexico

Does that mean that Vincente Fox is 'worse' than Castro?

[stopthegop]

15. no...it means it's easier to walk across the border than swim eom

[Judi Lynn]

16. How would you explain the hundreds of deaths annuallly

"walking across the border?"

In 2000, there were between 388 and 430 known migrant deaths along the US-Mexico border. Between 1995 and 2000 there were over 1,400 known migrant deaths. (Sources: Orrenius, Pia, "Illegal Immigration and Enforcement Along the Southwest Border," Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas: The Border Economy (June 2001), pp. 30-36. Online. Available. Cornelius, Wayne, "Death at the Border: The Efficacy and 'Unintended Consequences' of US Immigration Control Policy, 1993-2000," Center for Comparative Immigration Studies Working Paper no. 27 (November 2000). Online. Available.)
(snip)

http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=32

[stopthegop]

17. larger numbers...and it's a horrible situation...

I agree...the immigration situation (coming into the US) is a mess..

I just meant crossing over land is much more plausible than over the water, that's all...

[Judi Lynn]

24. Are you serious?How would you explain all the drowings in the Rio Grande?

(snip)
The Rio Grande, known on the Mexican side as the Rio Bravo, seems docile at this turning point. In fact, 844 undocumented immigrants have died between here and Brownsville from 1993 to 1996.2

In the past decade, the number is probably as high as 3,000, according to an ongoing study by the University of Houston.3 About 72 percent were drowning victims, belying the river's placid origins. The remainder were hit by cars or trains after crossing, succumbed to dehydration in the arid desert, froze to death in the frigid mountains, or were murdered by smugglers and common criminals who prey on the most vulnerable.

Others have perished, too, their bodies washed downstream and disfigured by the water's grim current or decomposing in the brush, never to be recovered.

Only 14 of the Texas counties directly on the border have their own medical examiners. The others depend on justices of the peace, who try their best to identify the "floaters," as immigrants who drown while trying to cross the river are known locally. In Mexico, officials of the different states are charged with investigating and documenting the deaths. All work diligently. But autopsies are rare, resources are limited, and few medical investigations ensue. Many bodies, including growing numbers of women and young children, are never identified--and many families never learn the fates of their loved ones.
(snip)

http://www.window.state.tx.us/border/ch11/monument.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On edit:
Adding more information.

Border crossing victems do some serious drowning in California, as well. They are just as drowned as any Haitian or Cuban or Dominican, etc.:

Another 177 migrants died by drowning, mostly in the All American Canal, an aqueduct for agricultural irrigation that parallels the Mexico‑US border for 53 miles near Calexico in Imperial County. The canal averages 21 feet deep and at some places is as wide as a football field. Its undercur­rent is deceptively strong (15‑20 miles per hour). Moreover, the lancheros (boatsmen) who ferry would‑be illegal entrants across the canal in rubber rafts in groups of eight or more for a fee often overload the rafts, which capsize and dump their human cargo into the canal. Others drown by at­tempting to float into the United States on inner tubes via the New River, which flows from south of the border into California. The New River is one of the world's most contaminated waterways‑so polluted with industrial wastes and typhoid, cholera, and hepatitis bacteria that the Border Patrol refuses to send agents into it to rescue drowning migrants. Where the New River flows under a bridge, migrants must float submerged, holding their breath, through a 30‑foot‑long culvert. Drowning is, in fact, the most fre­quent cause of death among migrants in the El Centro sector. This, too, is a direct consequence of the concentrated border enforcement strategy: mi­grants entering via the All American Canal and the New River are seeking to avoid the worst of a scorching, multi‑day trek through the desert.

The incidence of migrant deaths along the Mexico‑California border resulting from traffic accidents and homicides remained essentially stable from 1995 to 2000, while deaths from environmental factors and drowning increased sharply, together accounting for 78 percent of total deaths. Borderwide cause‑of‑death statistics compiled by the US Border Patrol from FY 1998 through mid‑2001 show a similar pattern: 76 percent of migrant deaths for which a cause was known were attributed to heat, cold, and drowning (US General Accounting Office 2001: 25). Unquestionably, con­centrated border enforcement has made illegal crossings more dangerous.
(snip)

http://www.pacificcouncil.org/public/publications/articles/OCR_cor2.htm

You'll note, no one else has the "Wet Foot-Dry Foot" policy which only Cubans receive, which allows ALL Cubans to stay in the U.S., once they arrive in the U.S. without being intercepted, and can start receiving their Cuban Adjustment Act benefits.

[RummyTheDummy]

26. Castro severly restricted internet access to Cuban citizens

Does that mean he's a champion of freedom, too? Im amazed some people here glorify Castro for whatever reason.

[Judi Lynn]

27. Why don't you provide a link to your information?

Many of us heard that they closed the blackmarket loopholes for the internet.

[RummyTheDummy]

57. Here you go. Educate yourself.

Standing in line for three hours to check my email sounds like Utopia. Suuuuuuuuure.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/01/21/cuba.internet.reut/


HAVANA, Cuba (Reuters) -- At a downtown Havana post office, Cubans line up for hours for their turn in the "surfing room."

When users get to one of the four computers, they can send and receive e-mail and surf an Intranet of Cuban Web sites, but access to the global Internet is barred.

Getting online is not easy in communist-run Cuba, where the state strictly controls all Web servers and recently announced plans to crack down on illegal Internet access.

E-mail accounts are available at the Cuban Postal Service, but writing to friends abroad comes at price: A three-hour prepaid card costs $4.50, one-third of the average Cuban monthly wage.

"It's very expensive for us, but this is the only way we can send e-mails at will," said Ignacio, a health ministry employee, facing a two-hour wait.

[Judi Lynn]

71. Here's another CNN article which has some information some of us

read about a long time ago.

Most important, government officials -- after a long and torturous debate over whether the Web would be used to subvert the socialist regime -- have now seen the light. A 1997 decree mandates that the entire island be wired as fast as scarce resources will allow. And an e-commerce commission -- patterned after the one that developed the Clinton administration's Framework for Global Electronic Commerce -- is laboring to clear regulatory hurdles to domestic business-to-business transactions and exports.
(snip)

The Cubans opened a single gateway in 1997, run by a government agency called the National Center for Automated Exchange of Information. E-commerce czar Fernandez, one of the leading Internet proponents in that debate, says, "I'm a pioneer, and the definition of a pioneer is 'the guy laying in the middle of the road with the arrows sticking out of his back.' But now we're not discussing whether the Internet is a good thing or not. The issues are: How? With what financing?"
(snip)

Even with the right credentials, it's still difficult to get government permission. For example, it wasn't until last year that high-profile entities like Granma International and the Telematics Department of the Jose Antonio Echeverria Institute -- a leading university computer-studies program -- gained full Internet access. But once it's granted, the government does not censor, filter or -- it appears -- survey traffic. Many people gain limited Net access with permission for an e-mail account only. (Some of the more enterprising individuals in this category try to skirt restrictions and get foreign e-pals to send them Web sites as e-mail attachments.)
(snip)

Cuban leaders will have to take more radical steps, such as relaxing Net-access restrictions, if the country hopes to attract big Net investments like those flowing to South American countries. But broad Net access in Cuba seems unlikely as long as U.S. officials maintain their anti-Cuban policies. The embargo also prevents Cuban ventures from going public on the Nasdaq -- like other Web startups around the globe -- limiting their potential to raise cash and grow.
(snip)

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/04/11/cuba.online.idg/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To get a sound understanding of what is happening in Cuba, without resorting to pieces written by U.S.-paid "independent" journalists in Cuba, or right-wing writers from the States, cranking out propaganda for the continuing obfuscation of Cuban matters, you'll need to read Cuban history in depth, and learn who gains from continuing the embargo, and its attendant tentacles which influence Cuba's trade or lack thereof with other countries which depend on the U.S. for important material stability.

Continuing the travel ban keeps a lot of dimwitted people out of Cuba who might otherwise start seeing what the heck has been going on. As long as the travel ban's in place, those people, since they aren't very intellectually active, simply rely on the constant barrage of propaganda Cuba for their "education," which is complete misinformation, and must be replaced by real information sought out deliberately, if they seek a way out of their confusion.

As Mika has pointed out, Cuba is operating on a limited budget, (you'll need to understand the embargo and related legislation) and focuses on its priorities, bringing attention to the most urgent problems first. It is operating with a fragile phone system, and is just starting to get up some steam in computers. Since they've only been at it a few years, it's a good time to remember Cuba is a Latin American country, and should NEVER be compared to America's material standard of living. Some people never seem to be able to make the connections here, and remain clueless.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit to add photo:


Three young people at the Havana Palacio Central de Computación,
with the server/network administrator for the facility and for Tinored
(the youth network that is part of Cuba's internet), in blue jacket.
The young men were working on web design and teaching themselves software.

Brief Initial Report on
Investigation of Literacy and Computer Literacy in Cuba,
participation in Cuban Library Tour, February 19-March 6, 2001
(Presentation to UM/ACT All-Hands Meeting March 9)

Cuba is poor and rich. Education is free up through PhD. Not a typical third world living standard.
Cuba is not bowling alone. * Highly organized society. PCC, FMC, UJC, CDR, CTC, ASCUBI, even baseball games. A lot of social capital. Public feeling reflected this: safe, courteous, relaxed.

The Cuban economy is in transition even while the effect of Soviet collapse and US embargo/blockade is very real. From agriculture (sugar) to tourism to "high value added (high tech) products and services." Visible European presence, esp Spain. Cuba is pursuing collaboration, not isolation.

Computerization. The first sectors to get wired have been the research sectors and the enterprises (e.g. finance); people get computers when their job requires it and as they become available. Internet access (ISP) costs 30 pesos/month ($1.50), although that can be waived. Public computing (education/higher education, libraries, community centers, etc.) is the next priority. Their networks seem slow; email predominates over browsing. But much web development has already begun. Sites are delivered via intranet, along with online databases. There is also Cuba on the web for people outside Cuba. Note: The José Martí National Library posted an announcement of our visit on their site.
(snip)

http://www.communitytechnology.org/cuba/ACTinitialreport.html

[RummyTheDummy]

74. Interesting point

What you seem to be saying is that as long as my government doesn't control my access to the internet (among other things), I couldn't care less that another government controls the freedoms of their citizens.

Second, Reuters, the company that produced and published the CNN link I provided has done some very solid reporting over the last year on a range of issues most notably the war in Iraq. I dare say they rival the BBC in terms of presenting an issue in its truest form, unlike so many of our US news outlets.

Third, Reuters is not a US media outlet. It was founded in London by a German.

http://about.reuters.com/aboutus/history/


Fourth, the link you provided is four years old while mine was from Jan. 22nd of this year. It represents how things are in Cuba NOW, not the ideals of some failed commission.


In a poor nation like Cuba, obviously the technology infrastructure is going to be limited and tricky at best. I wouldn't expect every citizen to have the kind of "on demand" access to the internet we have. However I find it totally unacceptable Castro's government would bar access to non state approved websites and limit users to what amounts to a state sponsored intranet.

Many on this board destroy Bush and the Right for limiting our personal freedoms via the Patriot Act or strong arming Disney or CBS into not showing a particular film and rightly so. It would be nice to hold all leaders from every nation to the same standard.

Personally, I couldn't care less if Castro is a communist. Cuba is obviously a beautiful nation with beautiful people. Where I differ is I don't confuse those facts with a govt. that controls information. Even in this fucked up country we have other options besides domestic cable news and print outlets. It's called the web.

[Judi Lynn]

75. You've involved several subjects, so there's no way to get a handle here

The difference in four years doesn't seem to be a fatal flaw to me. I could find more, but frankly, I just don't want to spend the time. That was the first thing I found which seemed to fill the bill.

The point I was trying to land was within the article, and that was the country has only been in the computer business a few years. Period.

Second, their resources ARE meager, and if you claim that they are using that as an excuse to not have the same cultural advantages you are using in your state, you're clearly unaware of Cuba's situation.

That's why you'll see people encouraging people who TRULY haven't done reading on Cuba to get in there and start reading. Then you won't feel a need to try to bait others who HAVE either tried to read a lot, or have actually been there.

I've NEVER heard Reuters is in ANY way more honorable than any other outlet. I HAVE heard they have made dreadful errors in their Latin America reporting, consistantly.

I took a quick look for material on Reuters, and here's one ort I found from a reporter who contributed material on the Jessica Lynch story. I don't think I'm going to look and look at length for more, as anyone can do that for HIMSELF or herself, and it's easy for the person who actually has something to gain. I don't. Here's what I saw:

Reuters did use one quote from the story I wrote last week in the final paragraphs of one of their earliest Lynch stories, which was sent out for publication early Tuesday morning.

By Tuesday afternoon, the quote was reduced to one sentence. Still, my byline appeared.

By Tuesday night, the quote was gone and Reuters was siphoning information from television reports. The beginning of the story was toned down. The part about ''media fiction'' was removed. But even then, my byline remained.

I understand that news wire services often edit, add, remove, or write new leads for stories. What amazed me was that a story could have my byline on it when I contributed only a few sentences at the end--and in later versions I didn't contribute anything at all.

The stories contained apparently fresh material attributed to sources I did not interview.

Maybe that's the way that wire service works.

I would like to make it abundantly clear that somebody at Reuters wrote the story, not me.
(snip)

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=3601&catcode=10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One thing I have heard is that in many places they simply rely on local talent, which can mean anything, as they don't send their own reporters everywhere, and it's something like "catch as catch can."

I did see, glancing through google that there are tons of articles written on problems with Reuters stories, bias, libel, etc., etc.,

You can read them at your own leisure. Reuters is NOT a sacred name in journalism. There simply isn't one.

[RummyTheDummy]

76. Yada Yada Yada

What you haven't answered is whether or not it is right for a govt., or in this case a dictator, to restict information to its citzens. It really is that simple. So is it okay?

And how exactly does it cost the govt. more if a Cuban citizen visits Yahoo, DU etc. than it does when they're limited to their crappy intranet? Or are you naive enough to think that's done because of limitations within the system? If that's so, then I expect when Cuba is fully up and operational when it comes to internet access in the way we know it Castro will of course remove those restrictions, correct?

Never said Reuters is flawless. I do however note that it's not a flag waving org. like Fox, CNN and MSNBC and the rest of the US media. There is a difference. I suspect you would have found fault with whatever example I provided.

[Judi Lynn]

78. You'll need to slow down and do your homework like the rest of us.

Jump in and start reading like a so and so, and read as much as you can. Don't stop until you know you really understand.

Here's a great bunch of info. you may have not seen:

The Cuban Solidarity Act of 2001 was preceded in 1992 by the "Cuban Democracy Act" (The Torricelli Act), signed into law by Republican President George Bush (in Miami for the signing with CANF representatives present), and in 1996 by the Helms-Burton Act, signed into law by Democratic President Bill Clinton. The former law forbids foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies from trading with Cuba and bans ships that have visited Cuba from docking at U.S. ports for six months. Ninety percent of the trade banned by this law consists of food, medicine and medical equipment; therefore, this law is in violation of U.N. resolutions and customary international law that prohibit food and medicine from being used as a weapon in international conflicts. The 1996 Helms-Burton Act authorizes U.S. investors to sue in U.S. courts against foreign companies utilizing their confiscated property in Cuba. Additionally, the executives of such foreign companies are refused entry into the U.S. The law also prevents any U.S. president from lifting the embargo until a transitional government is in place in Cuba and requires U.S. representatives to international financial organizations to oppose loans to Cuba. Finally, the Helms-Burton Law imposes without judicial review fines up to $50,000 on U.S. citizens who visit Cuba at their own expense without receiving U.S. government permission in advance. It is interesting to note that the U.S., the nation always describing the lofty value of freedom for the people, is the only Western nation where traveling to another country is a crime.

A total embargo of U.S. trade with Cuba has been in effect since February 7, 1962. This embargo became part of the "Trading with the Enemy Act" of 1917 which forbade commerce with enemy nations or their associates. It implies both a hostile state and a declaration of war. This embargo forbids U.S. citizens from spending any money in Cuba, thereby effectively banning travel to the island nation. Violation of the Trading With the Enemy Act subjects U.S. citizens traveling to Cuba to fines up to $250,000, and up to ten years in prison. The embargo is so total that it bars U.S. imports of third country products that contain any Cuban materials, such as nickel, for example.

Because the U.S. embargo and subsequent laws relating to Cuba have an extraterritorial effect, interfering with the normal flow of international economic relations with other nations, the embargo is legally a blockade. A blockade is an act of war as established in international law in 1909 by the Naval Conference of London. The United Nations General Assembly has voted overwhelmingly every year since 1992 to end the U.S. embargo against Cuba, asking instead that all member states, including the United States, adhere to the U.N. Charter and international law. Often the only two member states voting against this resolution are the U.S. and Israel. The Organization of American States (OAS) in a February 17, 1995 letter called the U.S. medical embargo against Cuba a direct violation of international law.

Whether forty-two years of paranoid, violent behavior by the U.S. government and its Cuban exile community against the nation of Cuba is a product of severe mental illness or egregious criminal intent can be debated. But the fact that this chronic lawless behavior has continued for so long without being arrested is a sad commentary on U.S. society, and on international institutions designed to preserve sovereignty under international law.
(snip)

http://www.brianwillson.com/awolcuba.html

All this info. can be cross checked and verified in tons of other sources. I really hope it helps.

[Mika]

86. Consider this

Cuba has been facing ever increasing sanctions by the US throughout the 70's 80's and 90's, and now Herr Bush is cutting remittances from US based Cuban migrants. Remittances are extremely important to all Latin American and Caribbean countries, as noted in the most recent IDB report....

REMITTANCES TO LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN REACH A RECORD $38 BILLION
http://www.iadb.org/NEWS/Display/PRView.cfm?PR_Num=56_04&Language=English

Latin American and Caribbean migrants working in developed nations sent some $38 billion back to their home countries last year, up from $32 billion in 2002, the Inter-American Development Bank’s Multilateral Investment Fund announced today.

MIF Manager Donald F. Terry disclosed the data for 22 countries in the region at a conference on remittances organized ahead of the annual meeting of the IDB’s Board of Governors, which will take place here March 29-31.

Remittances, which last year surpassed foreign direct investment (FDI) and official development assistance (ODA) combined as a source of financing for the region, are likely to continue to flow due to a combination of demand for labor in industrialized countries with waning population growth rates and the paucity of job opportunities in most Latin America and Caribbean countries.

“People will continue to move north and billions of dollars will continue to flow south,” Terry told the audience at Lima’s National Museum, adding that about one in 10 Latin Americans are supported by remittances from relatives working abroad.

Some $30 billion of the total amount sent last year by migrants came from the United States, said pollster Sergio Bendixen, who has carried out several surveys for the MIF.

Still, Cuba has marshalled its scarce resources (including very limited internet capabilities) in order to create and maintain the social infrastructure THAT THE CUBAN PEOPLE DEMAND. Cuba surpasses every country in the Latin Americas and the Caribbean in their education and health care efficacy.

Lack of credit (thanks to heavy US pressure and anti Cuba sanctions) needed to build-out an advanced internet system is a major problem in Cuba. It results in limited servers and limited connections (also, the US sanctions reduce Cuba's access to lower cost equipment). As a work-around Cuba uses a custom infranet and reserves many connections for the country's health care and education infrastructure. Still, it is woefully slow and inadequate by modern standards.

Still, all Cubans have access to free email accounts in the public library system as well as (limited) access to the internet there.

Without a flourishing economy and a large credit line, building out and paying for a modern internet infrastructure is very difficult.

Ending the US embargo & sanctions on Cuba and ending the US travel sanctions on Americans would do wonders for the overall Cuban economy, which would result in a much improved internet infrastructure and subscribers who could pay for lower cost connections.



End the US embargo on Cuba. Now!

[Almost_there]

88. You're comparing apples and telephones...

You can't even begin to compare poverty to oppression, and you also can't say "more people die coming here from Mexico than Cuba". Yes, that is very true. How about as a percentage of the population? Last time I checked, Mexico is a massive country with the largest city in the Americas, and Cuba is a small island in the Atlantic. People are willing to risk a lot more crossing 80 miles of open ocean than 20 yards of a river and sometimes a desert.

Its disingenuous to compare the two situations. If Castro lives till he's 140, good for him. But, bad for his people. Let's be honest, ok? The gyu is a tin pot dictator, pretending to be a Communist leader. Yes, things are socialized there, but, you're kidding yourself if you think it is paradise, and yes, I know several people who have been there. Beautiful beaches, terrible poverty, state militiamen everywhere. (And no, they are not Americans I know who have been, the people I know view Castro as oppressive to his people).

Bring back the fascists? Hell no. But, let's give the people of Cuba a chance, and having Castro live to 140 won't help.

In my opionion, he is knocking at death's door if this guy is talking like this.

~Almost

[Mika]

90. No, you are comparing oranges to telephones

How about comparing the immigration perks offerd to Cubans vs. Mexicans.


Mexicans are deported by the hundreds of thousands per year, but still they continue to try to escape the tyranny and poverty of Mexico in mass quantities. They come here to earn money.

Cuban migrants come here to work also, but they are offered a spectrum of immigration perks - like... instant resident status, instant work visa, instant green card, instant social security, instant access to section 8 assisted housing, instant access to the entire school system. But yet, of the 20,000 legal immigration visas offered to Cubans by the US every year, not all are applied for.


Mexicans are offered NONE of the immigration perks that Cubans are, but still... Mexicans pour into the US "escaping" Mexico.

[Almost_there]

91. Financial vs Political...

I guess I see Mexico as a "free" country with elections, where yes, there is vast poverty, which breeds tyranny, and Cuba's elections consist of 1 person, 1 vote, 1 choice. The policy of allowing Cubans freedom into the US once they reach soil is almost humorous to me, but, that's the way its been for some time. I don't agree with it, but, it highlights how powerful the fascistas are in Florida.

"IF" we did that with Mexicans? When was the last time you were in Nueva Laredo, TX? San Diego, CA? San Diego is just about half US citizens, and the rest are illegal Mexican immigrants. So, are they allowed to stay? You tell me why the ER's in San Diego hospitals are flooded with cases where people have no ID, no way to pay, children are in school where mom and dad are illegal, but, since the child was born here, they are citizens, entitled to everything that you and I are as equal citizens. The parents aren't deported typically because the fact that they are granted visas since their child is now a citizen. Let's not get started on the "vile oppression" of Mexicans in Mexico, they come here for opportunity in most cases, not "freedom". There is such a difference as the difference between night and day.

~Almost

[Mika]

97. AlmostT - Why don't you try reading some of the posted links?

"Cuba's elections consist of 1 person, 1 vote, 1 choice." <-- posted by Almost_there


Almost_there, you obviously haven't read any of the links posted regarding the structure of the Cuban electoral system.

Discussing Cuban politics with you at this point is like discussing it with an Ostrich.






Bye bye. :hi:

[Judi Lynn]

92. Mika, you are kind to provide information concerning Cuban elections

It's a pity some people won't take the time to try to grapple with the material and walk away finally knowing a little bit about Cuba, rather than recycling regurgitated right-wing propaganda.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000>

(snip)
THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.
(snip)

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[Almost_there]

94. Huh? This is a pro-Castro stance?

So, only 20% of his population would leave the country where they were born and raised, where their families are, their friends are, and try to get out given the chance? That's POSITIVE?

Come on, let's be serious. First, if 20% of Americans (residents of the USA) wanted to leave, well, THEY COULD!

Second, 20%? TWENTY PERCENT? Wow! I am not sure if this is pro Castro or pointing out that look! They have some shadows of freedom! Just don't push that envelope! Or we'll reduce that 20% by a few more! Sorry, I have no love for Castro, I have Cuban friends (born in Cuba, left at 2) and have spoken to people have been to Cuba and have indicated that many people would try to get here if A) the possibilty of death wasn't so high, B) they wouldn't get turned around in the Gulf by the Coast Guard, C) if they got sent back, straight to your bedroom young man! and D) it would mean leaving everything, EVERYTHING they have and hold dear.

I just think that people here tend to view Castro as a great political Giant, bringing peace, prosperity, progressive thought to his land and people, when in fact, he is simply a Socialist dictator who revolted, won, and has held power with an iron grip.

~Almost

[Judi Lynn]

12. What about the hundreds who die annually coming from Mexico

or the great numbers going by boats from Haiti to the U.S. or from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico, or from all over Latin America up through Mexico to attempt a border crossing into the states across the desert, the Rio Grande, etc.?

Are THEY running away from Cuba, as well, or are you uninformed?

On edit, adding article:

Posted on Mon, Jan. 19, 2004





Dominicans continue to make dangerous covert trip to Puerto Rico

BY RAY QUINTANILLA

The Orlando Sentinel


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - (KRT) - The confounding winds in the Caribbean Sea have washed wayward ships onto these shores since the days of Christopher Columbus.

Last week, the same crosswinds steered eight rickety vessels, containing 178 people from the Dominican Republic, toward beaches on the western shores of Puerto Rico.

The Dominicans braved choppy seas in search of an opportunity to improve their lives. One woman, trying to flee approaching U.S. immigration authorities, jumped into the ocean and began swimming toward her destination rather than face authorities who sought to intercept her at sea.

Her body was later found near the coastal town of Aguadilla. Ironically, she washed ashore not far from where Columbus once landed.

In a development that has seemingly defied solution, the numbers of Dominicans making this same voyage continues to grow, according to U.S. Border Patrol.

Since last October, for instance, the numbers of "boat people" apprehended leaving the Dominican Republic for Puerto Rico has hit nearly 2,000 on land and sea, up 60 percent from the same period a year ago.
(snip)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[stopthegop]

13. no...they're not running from Cuba...

they are all running TO the United States...seems that may be relevant in some way...

[Judi Lynn]

20. More people are starting to find out about the Cuban Adjustment Act

Obviously there are some people who don't know about it, and there are some Cuban-Americans who don't want the U.S. taxpayers to know about it, period, as it's an ENORMOUS needless drain on the country, financially, and a real pork barrel bonanza for Florida Cubans.

Under the Cuban Adjustment Act, our privileges extend far beyond what is offered to other exiles or immigrants. Even in post 9/11 times, Cubans reaching U.S. soil, lacking documents or with false papers, have access to a work permit, welfare assistance, U.S. residency, and in due course full citizenship rights. These privileges stand in sharp contrast to the hardships endured by millions of Latin American immigrants; living lives outside legal protection and without political representation. In Hoffman v. NLRB, for example, the Supreme Court ruled that an undocumented immigrant has no right to back pay or salary compensation even if unjustifiably fired from work.

But these privileges also have a sinister side. Once in the U.S., Cuban Americans are restricted to only one visit within a twelve-month period to deal with a family emergency in Cuba. We are also limited as to the amount of and the frequency with which money may be sent to family and loved ones on the island. Parents who abandon dependents in Cuba escape prosecution, but those who do assume parental responsibilities cannot claim income tax deductions generally afforded to other immigrants with dependents in their country of origin.

Today, support for Cuba-policy is fueled more by the perks and turf protection granted to hardliners in the Cuban American enclave of Miami than by what is in the wider interests of all Americans. Federal funded Radio/TV Marti has been granted millions of dollars this year alone, money which is lavished through a patronage system to pro-embargo ideologues, despite the fact that TV Marti is not seen in Cuba and Radio Marti is ignored by 95% of the population. U.S. funds also rain on other groups in the Cuban American community, rewarded for the preservation Cold War rhetoric and policies still directed towards Cuba. These rewards foster dependency on Federal funded funds with ensuing corrupting effect on community life, making it unusually difficult for Cuban Americans to speak out against a policy that is in direct contradiction to American principles of free trade and travel.
(snip)

http://ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarticles/scst053102levy.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(snip)
The third proposed reform is to put an end to the quasi-asylum status of Cubans who arrive illegally in this country. The Cuban Adjustment Act is an anachronism of the Cold War that treats all Cubans as if they were fleeing persecution. In our current practice, we recognize that is not the case any longer. Those Cubans who are intercepted attempting to enter the United States illegally are given the opportunity to request asylum and are given a hearing if they present a convincing case that they have been persecuted or will be persecuted if they are returned to Cuba. However, most of the intercepted Cubans fail this test and are returned to Cuba, where follow-up programs have convincingly demonstrated they are not subjected to persecution. If the Cuban Adjustment Act is abolished, Cubans will be put on an equal footing with Haitians and all others who arrive illegally in the United States and seek to stay. They will have to present an asylum claim, and if they are not entitled to that protection, they will be removed.
(snip)

http://www.mnforsustain.org/stein_d_asylum_policy_fair_may_2001.htm

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

23. Because of America

http://www.dsp.org.au/dsp/Cuba_alt/part3.htm#1


snip---------------------------
'Rafters'

In the early 1990s, under the impact of the economic crisis caused by the collapse of the Soviet bloc, the pressure to emigrate from Cuba grew again. The new form this took was the hijacking of boats.

Cuba pleaded with the US government not to accept violent hijackers, or at least to punish them once ashore. Washington haughtily ignored the Cuban pleas, instead hailing every new arrival to create even more incidents.

Inevitably, a Cuban border patrol guard was killed and the revolutionary government reacted as it had in the case of the Peruvian embassy. The government announced that it would no longer try to prevent individuals from building rafts to get to the US, thereby setting off the "rafter" crisis.

This time, because the rafts were being built in Cuba by Cubans, there was no practical way for the US to put an end to the wave of emigration except by coming to an agreement with the Cuban government.

Cuba sought two essential goals in the negotiation. The first was to get the US to stop encouraging illegal emigration, to stop granting legal status to those who made it to Florida illegally. The second was to get the US to facilitate large-scale, legal emigration. Cuba largely succeeded on both counts. First, the US agreed to turn back all illegal immigrants caught at sea. (By and large, rafters did not count on making it to Florida, only to the limit of Cuba's territorial waters where a US Coast Guard cutter could pick them up, having been notified by relatives or friends in Miami of the projected date of the voyage).

The US agreed to issue the legal maximum number of visas, 20,000, every year, and even found a loophole to double that figure for the first couple of years, holding a lottery if not enough people with close relatives in the US applied.

That accord has come under increasing strain in the past year due to the emergence of organised smuggling and changes in US practices. The smugglers are often those involved in the drug trade. They typically charge several thousand dollars a head and use very fast speedboats. The goal now is to get the émigrés to dry land in Florida, because under a new US policy, those who make it to dry land can stay, but those caught in even a few inches of water on the beach are deported. This is commonly known as the "wet foot/dry foot" policy, the latest reinterpretation of the 1966 Cuban Adjustment Act.

This new element led to highly publicised clashes on the high seas and near shore between the smugglers and the Coast Guard. After an incident in 1999, in which Coast Guard personnel capsized a boat, causing several people to drown within range of TV cameras, the Coast Guard seems to have largely abandoned its interdiction efforts.

At the same time, the US has cut back the issuing of residence visas from 40,000 to 20,000. Because those with close relatives in the US get preference, the number of visas now available to others is relatively small.

That's why the right-wing émigré groups in Miami seized on Elián's case and transformed the boy into a poster child for illegal immigration. That's the reason for the highly publicised birthday party, the trip to Disney World, the shower of gifts, including the heavy gold chain Elián is made to wear, an appropriate symbol of his enslavement.

Camarioca, Mariel and the rafter crisis which led to the current immigration accords represent major battles waged by the revolution to force the US to accept responsibility for the results of its policy of constantly encouraging emigration. Under the current accords, the US is committed to granting at least 20,000 visas for permanent residency a year, and to discouraging illegal immigration by sending those who try to cross by boat back to Cuba.

[radwriter0555]

51. You mean like the criminal Marisol who kidnapped her son, to be with her

convict boyfriend?

The people who come to the US from Cuba are by majority, criminals.

Ask Jeb's pals.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

64. just as many try to get in fromother countries

the difference is we, thans to the miami rightwingers, let the cubans stay, while turning back haitians, mexicans, etc

[0rganism]

65. Did you know they get AUTOMATIC US CITIZENSHIP for doing so?

Yeppers, unlike the people from Haiti or Mexico or the rest of Latin America who get sent right back if they get caught, all a Cuban has to do to get full US citizenship rights is ignore the immigration process (which does exist, you can get a visa to emigrate to the USA quite legally in Cuba) and go directly across the straits. American immigration policies actually encourage and reward people who risk their lives in flimsy rafts.

[nodehopper]

19. Have YOU been to Cuba?

And if you have been to Cuba, have you been outside the parameters established by the government for tourists?

The whole Cuba thing reminds me of Western idealists who said propaganda was ragging on the USSR, and really they were building a socialist paradise.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Americans go EVERYWHERE in Cuba, just like the British, Canadians, etc.

There are DU'ers who have been to Cuba many, many times, and have gone all over the island using any number of types of transportation, have continuing close friendships there, have gone everywhere, UNRESTRICTED. They rent cars and bicycles, and none has ever revealed he/she was followed, of COURSE.

What areas do you imagine are off bounds? Please inform us.

This article discusses a trip high-ranking U.S. officials paid to Cuba, on invitation, to scour their facilities:

A group of senior retired U.S. military and diplomatic officials have returned from a five day tour of Cuba (February 5-9) with observations of a nation slowly liberalizing its political and economic structures at the same time their shrinking military forces are assuming a new role.

Led by Rear Admiral Eugene Carroll, U.S. Navy (Ret.), now Deputy Director of the Center for Defense Information, and Ambassador Robert White, Director of the Center for International Policy, formerly U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador and Paraguay, the group visited a number of military facilities as well as the partially completed nuclear power plant at Juragua near Cienfuegos, Cuba. Other members were Major General Edward Atkeson, U.S. Army (Ret); Brigadier General William Lanagan, U.S. Marine Corps (Ret); Vice Admiral Ralph Weymouth, U.S. Navy (Ret); and Jack Mendelsohn, a retired foreign service officer, now Deputy Director of the Arms Control Association.
(snip)

Admiral Carroll summed up the group's observations: "There is nothing going on in Cuba today which poses any threat to the security interests of the United States in military, political or nuclear terms. General Rosales del Toro stressed over and over again that Cuba stands ready to discuss any and all issues with United States representatives on the basis of mutual interests and mutual respect. He invited active members of the U.S. military to come to Cuba for such discussions."
(snip/)

http://www.cdi.org/issues/cuba/cubatrip.html

AND THIS ARTICLE IS OLD. I've had it for years. Since it has been written, tons MORE military men have been there, as well as tons of Republican and Democratic Congresspeople, their staffs, and hordes of American businessmen, their staffs, farmers, all kinds of food producers and middlemen, people connected to medicine and the drug industry, scientists, musicians, actors, artists, students, and THOUSANDS of American tourists, including Cuban-Americans going back on vacation and to visit relatives (although they have "fled," according to some less informed right-wingers).

[Minstrel Boy]

28. Well done, JudiLyn.

I'm finding the ignorance regarding Cuba too depressing today to even engage it.




The international situation is complex. The adventurist policies —adventurist! — of this administration have given the world increasingly insoluble problems. The economic order imposed is ever more unsustainable. That is why nobody finds it strange that uncontainable social movements break out, and that revolutions break out, anywhere, anytime. This is already happening.

...

In Spain, despite the fact that most of the media backed the wrong cause, they saw how the people were capable of striking back and giving a beating to the madame, just as in similar circumstances the Venezuelan people have given more than one beating to the traitorous oligarchy in their country.

We must have confidence in the peoples, and the more they learn, the more general culture and political culture they gain, the more difficult it becomes to treat them as herds of ignorant illiterates.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/mayo/vier7/1mayo.html

[Judi Lynn]

31. Great photos! The young guys look really miserable, don't they?

(Although I've not been one of the lucky ones going to Cuba so far, I have heard from TONS that the people they have met and seen in Cuba are united by a far more upbeat spirit than anywhere in Latin America. I've heard this enough to believe it, after considering the sources.)

From the post:

Latin America’s solidarity with and support for Mexico and Mexico’s for Latin America are crucial. More than half of Mexico’s territory was snatched from it by its northern neighbor and great danger threatens what is left. The US-Mexican border is to all intents and purposes no longer the Rio Bravo of which Martí spoke. The United States has gone much deeper into Mexico. That border is today the line of death, where about 500 Mexican die every year. And all because of a brutal, ruthless principle: free passage for capital and goods; persecution, exclusion and death for human beings. And yet, millions of Mexicans take that risk. Today, the country obtains more income from their remittances than from oil exports, in spite of the high price of the latter.
(snip)

Last week Mexicans protested Vicente Fox's decision to vote with _Bush at the U.N. They went out in the streets with their signs, indicating they were damned sick of it.

Thanks for your comments. It's a damned shame people feel encouraged to start repeating Miami-Cuban rightwing Battistiano propaganda without awareness they are desperately ignorant of the facts, and others can see it, and too slow-witted to start doing research to find out what the truth is.

[Tinoire]

29. Yeah I have and I saw Castro wandering through the crowds to

THRONGS of adoring fans, to throngs of people who know that he has had their best welfare at heart and are thrilled with the fruit of the revolution.

Never have I seen anything like it in my life.

I'd suggest you take a trip down there and see for yourself.

There were, btw, no restrictions on where we could go or what we could see.

[Judi Lynn]

37. So you're one, too! Congratulations! That must have been amazing!

Are you saying, he didn't have the entire place cleared for blocks so he could pass by majestically, inside a bullet-proof limosine? (How can anyone forget that many times certain U.S. people have tried to kill him?)

I read recently that a lot of Cubans see him as a national hero, similar to George Washington.

[psychopomp]

77. My friend got back two weeks ago

He is a formally-trained Swiss dancer and went there to learn dance from a master. Anyhow, he was told that, regarding Castro, nobody knows where he stays "but he lives in my house." My friend took that to mean that Cubans have great love for Castro and that he has a sentimental place in their hearts.

He also told me that Cuba looks very poor, as if "they left the world fifty years ago." Everything is in a state of disrepair and all of the cars are from the 1950's. Take that for what you will.

[Judi Lynn]

79. How interesting............

I have heard many Cuban citizens love him, but that remark is really expressive, pointing to some very deep feelings of respect, affection.

You can find a lot of interesting photos by going to any of the search engines and clicking on "image" and putting in Cuba and the name of any of Cuba's cities. You can see AMAZING photographs. This one is from Camaguey:


Cars!

http://www.lumika.org/cuba_vintage_american_cars.htm

[Sandpiper]

35. Wasn't the Bay of Pigs disaster

Based on the faulty premise that the majority of Cubans were secretly pining for a return of the gangsters and criminals of the Batista government?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Castro's a saint, but I think Americans assume that because we hate him, Cubans must hate him too.

[Judi Lynn]

40. They were slightly surprised, weren't they?

It was their group the Cubans rebelled against.

It is their group which has one of the most corrupt, vile political system in the country in Florida, and it is their group which has mis-managed Miami to the point it has been labeled the most violent city in the country at times, "Terror capitol" of the country, and multiple winner of the "poorest large city in the U.S."

Throw in vote fraud scandals, wildly crooked local politicians, many of them sent to jail, some still operating, a horrendous suppression of any possible dissent for years and years, and you've got the very pile the Cubans couldn't get out of their government and out of Cuba nearly fast enough. That same hierarchy contains a whole lot of rabid Republicans, although among more recent Cuban immigrants there are many Democrats.

[Alerter_]

56. yes, the Americans thought they would be greeted with flowers

JFK and the Liberal Democrats, no less, believed that they would invade Cuba and that the Cubans would gladly overthrow Castro and welcome the American liberators with open arms. Didn't work that way though. Sound familiar?

[LondonAmerican]

87. Bad news for everyone

The good news is that the story is just more typical leader worship, propaganda of the sort that aging tyrants love to crank out just before they bite it.

[radwriter0555]

4. I wish we could clone him. He's an exemplary leader, one who should be

appreciated, not hated.

He's devoted his life to keeping his people safe from the clutches of the greedy corporations... and it's worked.

The demonization will continue, unabated, I'm sure though.

[qwertyMike]

5. Interesting to note

That the life expectancy in Cuba is 77 or so, almost the same as the US. The literacy rate is 98%.

Uncle Fidel doin' sump'n right.

[BayCityProgressive]

6. Its always easier to follow

right wing propaganda and bash Cuba than it is to actually take the time to learn about it. Yes, they have their ups and their downs but so do we as acountry and as a government. The US is the one invading countries, stealing resources, using slave wage labor, and instigating coups all over the world.

[radwriter0555]

50. wanna really freak out a Cuba basher? Ask them what THREAT Cuba poses

to the USA.

All they can do is wave their arms and shriek "But they're COMMUNISTS!!!!" and then they contemplate naval lint.

[0007]

55. Fidel Castro is a true countryman in the strictest sense

His ideals and morality are the highest - bar none

[DS1]

7. Attention Americans! Your Bacteria are slitting their throats on our beach

In fact, we have not even seen any of your agents.

Run home you capitalists swine before you are crushed by Castro's mighty army!

[BootinUp]

10. The Cuban version of Monty Python "I'm not dead yet"

[Paranoid_Portlander]

14. Anyone who makes it past 110...

... is a candidate for the Guiness Book of World Records. I think (not sure) the current record holder is about 114. Why did the doctor stop at 140? Why not make it 150 or 240?

[Judi Lynn]

22. A dull-witted reporter may not take the time to observe

a source is, perhaps, smiling, when he makes a remark, and is using hyperbole for emphasis.

A lot goes into having a grasp!

[nodehopper]

18. now that's what I call social realism!

Makes me think of Mother Russia.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Wow. Nobody can make a joke anymore.

Hyperbole. Irony. Satire. It's all dead, dead, dead.

THE DOCTOR WAS JOKING GODDAMMIT!!!

[Judi Lynn]

80. Better believe it. How else WOULD a non-brain-damaged person

take it? Jeez. Thanx.

[9215]

30. Wow! The BFEE really does fear the good example of

a country that doesn't knuckle under to their fascist designs. Cuba is a country that fought and won the "Drug War"--they just kicked the bastards out and the Cuban Mafia in Florida has been pissing and fuming ever since; must be a coincidence.

Infant mortality, literacy, and the health of Cubans is suppose to be the highest, or close to it, in Central and S. America as well.

While Cuba insures that "no child will be left behind" the BFEE run US just mouths off about it.

I've never figured out why an "oppressor" like so many claim Castro is would be interested in having a literate population, while the USA, a supposed uber-democracy, would rather spend their money on SUV's and monster TV's than educate their kids?

Also in the field of medicine Cuba has reportedly come up with some very good cures/treatments for illnesses. I don't have the facts on this handy. I'd like to hear more about this.

[tom_paine]

33. Actually the Monster TVs ARE for educating Imperial Kids.

To educate them into mindless Bushevik consuming sutomatons who will do whatever their Master says, whenever, and not have the critical thinking skills to question their orders and lies, even if they had the inclination to do so.

[tom_paine]

32. Always good to hear some Commie bullshit to balance out Bushevik bullshit

We are not the only ones ruled by lunatic Tyrants who dislike individual freedom.

[9215]

61. I don't think Fidel has anything against individual freedom

unless it substantially threatens domestic well being.

What is Fidel's benefit from all of this supposed tyranny? Does he have palatial estates? Rolls Royces, etc.?

[Zolok]

34. Translation:

Fidel is dying.
:)
Whenever the doctors insist that the leader is in superb health for a man his age, run for the hills a sh*t storm of epic proportions is approaching.
Lin Baio's doctors insisted that the PRC's fabled number two man was in robust nigh super human health.
Mao (his nominal boss) countered with lyric press releases extolling the great helmsman's god-like metabolism.
The settled the matter of who was healthier will an old fashioned firefight which Lin's side lost.

Hey no offense guys, but if Cuba is such a great place why aren't more people swimming from Florida to Havana in search of citizenship therein?
:)
www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[wubbathompson]

36. Good point

I've always wondered that myself. Any place that controls society to the extent Castro does cannot be that good.

[Sandpiper]

38. I'm certainly no Castro apologist

But what is the main reason for the US hostility toward him?

The answer to that is that we're still angry at him for putting his own people ahead of US business interests and not allowing US corporations to rape his country anymore.

Prior to the revolution, American companies controlled over 70% of all business interests in Cuba.

That's what the U.S. government is really pissed about.

[9215]

52. Fallacious argument. Cuba has never been given a fair shake.

That country has been under seige since it was established. Castro is governing a virtual fort against the onslaught of the multinational backed fascists.

How can we judge Cuba without considering this fact?

Besides the US has a relatively minor event like 9/11 happen and the BFEE wants to shitcan an already tattered Constitution. If the US with Bush at the helm was ever put under the kind of pressure Cuba has been under all these years they would end democracy in a flash and declare martial law.

[Longhorn79]

54. the US has a relatively minor event like 9/11 happen...

It's absurd to call 9/11 minor. I don't care what you are relating it to, it was an event of enormous magnitude on any number of levels.

[9215]

59. Relative to over forty years of embargoes and assasination attempts, etc.

toward a tiny island nation that is not a threat to the US? Relative to WWII?


IMO 9/11 was and inside job, so that complicates things even further.

[Judi Lynn]

39. Info. from a woman who has been to Cuba TONS of time

as a journalist. Her article on Cuban "exile" terrorist, Louis Posada Carriles, an interview she and another New York Times writer conducted got international attention.

From her book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeange in Miami and Havana:

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriates who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero,or comrade) are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.
(snip)

Page xviii, Preface
Cuba Confidential

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This certainly adds a little perspective to a hard-right spin one occassionally hears from people who have no knowledge whatsoever about Cuba.

[9215]

53. Real interesting stuff here Judilynn.

I'm filing this away.

[Judi Lynn]

72. Hi, 9215. There's a ton to learn about Cuba, wouldn't you say?

Once you realize we've been lied to about Cuba, the genie's outta the bottle, and it leaves you with a HUGE interest in finding out as much as you possibly can.

Thanks.

[qwertyMike]

69. Been going there on Vacation since '73 (Canuck)

In fact a buch of us went down to (symbollically) help harvest sugar cane. We weren't really needed, but.....solidarity.

Trudeau and Castro were good friends (Class shows) I think Castro was Godfather to one of Trudeau's, now adult, sons.

He left Cuba to attend Trudeau's fumeral a few years ago.


My daughter (18) and her friends wet there for Spring Break. Had a ball.

Wonderful people - very happy.

As to why they don't go back from Miami - GREED.
The USA was built on greed, and it attracts the greedy.







Funeral

[Judi Lynn]

73. Jeez, what a great photo, qwertyMike! The one at the top!

Very, very interesting, and their friend looks very handsome.

I have read and have been told Trudeau and Castro were good friends, and it looks as if their friendship spanned many years.

So your family has made multiple Cuba trips as well. I get the feeling she didn't come screaming back with any horror stories about the terrifying "police state," or people scared to death to talk to foreigners, or any of the propaganda yarns rightwingnuts spin the gullible in the States!

Now THAT'S a spring break!

[NJ Blue Collar]

41. I think the good doctor is joking

Fidel is dying. I don't know enough about Cuba to comment heavily, but the Wingers who go nuts about Castro fail to grasp just how much U.S. businesses controlled the island. Del Monte, and the big sugar producer at the time; the name escapes me.

Castro is no saint either. He has close to half a billion dollars stashed offshore and lives much much better than most of his people in his socialist paradise. Homosexuals and political dissenters are summarily jailed.

Me thinks the island will be a lot better off when he dies. I doubt the former elite (Miami Cubans) will be let back in, and US businesses will not have the control they once did. However, in time, I think the Cuban people will see free and open elections.

(That and I'll be able to get Cuban cigars w/out having to go through annoying round-about channels).

[Sandpiper]

42. The US has already said

That after Castro dies, they will attempt to subvert any governmental succession in Cuba.

[NJ Blue Collar]

44. It's because we care about their

'freedom', right? /sarcasm.

[Zolok]

43. I got no brief for Castro...

on the other hand if we can extend diplomatic recognition to the P.R.C. and our former opponents in Viet Nam then why exclude Cuba?

As for Castro's achievements...he has a lot of them to be sure.
So did Juan Peron....hospitals, roads, unemployment compensation, enfranchisement for women...its a long list.

That having been said I wouldn't want to live under Castro OR Peron's rule...

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[NJ Blue Collar]

45. You got me man.....

What I'd like to know is why Cuba did not go the PRC route; retaining the rehtorical trappings of socialism while opening the country up to capitalist development....

I agree w/ you Castro's achievements except for 'enfranchisement for women'. I guess you're right if you take into account how the status of women changed in cuba compared to other latin American societies, but I really don't think anyone in Cuba 'enfranchised' in the traditional sense.

'That having been said I wouldn't want to live under Castro OR Peron's rule...' - me neither.

[Zolok]

46. No no...I wasn't clear in that sentence...

one of PERON's signature achievements was the enfranchisement of women...along with the roads, hospitals, scholarships, old age pensions...he had a Castro streak before there was a Castro.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[NJ Blue Collar]

49. I understood you,

my point was just that under both Peron and Castro voting was a largely make-believe event.

[Mika]

62. Your point is make believe

I've been in Cuba during election season, and their elections are much cleaner and open than US elections - and their representatives are held accountable or can be recalled every six months of their term.


Make believe all you want.... well... I guess that Americans are left to imagine what Cuba is about because our own government restricts our freedom and denies us the right to travel there.... but, Cuba is democratic.

Just because obnoxious Americans who don't know jack about democracy nor sovereignty insist that it isn't doesn't make it so.

--


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[NJ Blue Collar]

82. Thank you for the links.

I always like learning new things. I certainly admit that I'm not super knowledgeable about all things Cuban; but I find it hard to believe that someone in Cuba can run and/or campaign against Castro in that country.

[Mika]

89. You have to go to Santiago de Cuba in 2007

Cuba's next election season comes in 2007. At that time one could go to district #7 in the city of Santiago de Cuba (F. Castro's home district).

There you will see several candidates posting their campaign literature and launching their campaigns - as I did in 1997. Some from union parties, some from the communist party (including F. Castro), some from the Christian parties, some from the social democratic parties, etc. Then there are party rallies and public debates, nomination sessions and party elections, on to the campaign in true, with the selected candidates. More debates, public slate approval, elections, public ballot counting, declaration of the winner. Six weeks later the winner of the district election is subject to the ratification referendum where said candidate must be approved by at least %50 +1 of the constituency in the district. If not, the process is started over for another election in six weeks. All of this is done completely in the open to the public - who participate on a large scale (in the %75 - %90 range).

I saw this process for the provincial and federal seats in 1997-98. Anyone in Cuba during election season can watch and attend any of these procedings (except for voting). Including the ballot count wich is done in public. Plenty of Brits and Canadians and Germans and Italians were there when I was. There are other DUers who have seen this too.

[qwertyMike]

95. Voting

Not like the good ole US of A, right?

[Vogon_Glory]

58. Cuba After Castro: My Fear For Cuba

My concern is that Cuba is caught in a devilish dialectic between Fidel's centralist state socialist political economic regime on the one hand and Dubya Bush/Tom De Lay/Otto Reich's intensification of the embargo on the other. It will be the average Cubans who will suffer.

I also feel that Fidel's continuing campaigns against small business and self-employment in Cuba will severely retard the growth of an independent business sector in Cuba that could better withstand the CANF/GOP embargo on the one hand and deal with Asia, Europe, and Latin America on the other. Without its own capital, Cuba stands a severe risk of reverting into an economic colony or a drug smuggler's landing strip after the sanctions fall away.

To my mind, without economic reforms on the mainland Chinese model, Cubans will find themselves repeating the same bitter experiences of ex-Soviets who learned after the fall of Communism that on the one hand that everything the former Soviet dissidents said about Communism was true and on the other everything the Communists said about dog-eat-dog capitalism was also true.

[Iceburg]

66. If you have ever been to Cuba you would know that the

business sector is extremely robust. They cannot build hotels and resorts fast enough to meet the demands. The big difference is that the wealth created in Cuba is shared/distributed to ALL the people not just the 3% of the "privileged" population.

[Vogon_Glory]

68. Sorry Charlie, But I Have Been To Cuba

Sorry, Buckaroo, but I have been to Cuba--twice. Cuba's business sector is unofficially divided into two parts--the foreign firms partnered with Cuba's government and the numerous individuals and small family businesses trying very hard not to get crushed by a state bureaucracy ideologically committed to forcing them out of business.

A better picture than either CANF propaganda or shameless Fidelista canting would be Ben Corbett's This Is Cuba: An Outlaw Culture Survives, which shows a far more accurate picture of the real economics of the island than apologists' eyewash.

This is not an apologia for the old pre-1959 elite. This is a defense of the little guys, the petit bourgeoisie if you will, who have been unwisely and unnecessarily persecuted since Fidel's blockheaded "intensification" of 1968.

[NJ Blue Collar]

84. I'm not sure the mainland

Chinese model would be good for the average Cuban. China has degenerated into a Sukarno-esque crony capitalism, which will probably hurt the average Chinese in the long run.

I hope the US does not try to interfere in Cuba after Castro dies (maybe w/ a dem in office??? :) ) so maybe they will develop into the social democracies of Western Europe.

[Vogon_Glory]

93. I Expect That The US Will TRY To Intervene...

I expect that the US will TRY to intervene in post-Castro Cuba, but it won't be nearly as successful as it used to be in the first half of the 20th century. You see, while the US was maintaining the embargo and prohibiting US firms from dealing with Cuba and limiting the contacts US citizens could have with Cuba, European, Canadian, Asian, and other Latin American governments and businesses have very successfully moved into the niches once occupied by United Fruit, the Hiltons, the sugar barons, GM, Ford, ITT, Standard Oil of New Jersey, etc. The levers the US once had back in the 1950's either will be considerably smaller and flimsier than they were even as late as Eisenhower's heydey or they won't exist at all.

Moreover, as powerful a military presence as the US may be these days, it doesn't wield quite the economic clout it used to.

[9215]

60. Castro booted the Cuban Mafia out of the country, closed the gambling

casinos and whore houses and put a serious crimp in the international drug trade. This, IMO, is one reason why he has been demonized. Check out Alfred McCoy's book "The Politics of Heroin: CIA complicity in the Global Drug Trade". It's all there.

[NJ Blue Collar]

85. I will, thanks for the referral.

n/t

[Lorien]

47. No, he can't

human cells can't live past 120 years.

[robertpaulsen]

48. Behold the power of Universal Health Care!

Very funny. He's been in power for 45 years and is shooting for another 63 years. Keep it up!

[Moderator]

63. wubbathompson

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
news source.

Thank you.

DU Moderator

[2cents]

67. Makes me wonder...

...if Cuba is working on stem cells (therapeutic cloning, etc.) and, if so, how successful they're being?

If rejuvenation through stem cells proves true, and you have enough bucks for the treatments, why not 140?

The trick for Castro is to live long enough for the "cure".

[TroubleMan]

70. Didn't Jiminy Cricket say that?

I'm no fool no siree...I'm going to live to 103!!

[supernova]

81. LOL! I wish that were true

for all of us!

It does make me wonder what the Cuban people will do after Castro dies, as we all do. He hasn't groomed anyone younger to take his place.

[Loonman]

83. Yay! Communism!

Not.

[goforit]

96. LOL!!!!.........Rub it in Bush....a little harder!!!