'What's a Catholic to do?' Abortion may force a decision: church or polit

[DaveSZ]

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/election/article/0,1299,DRMN_36_2906165,00.html


'What's a Catholic to do?'
Abortion may force a decision: church or political party

By David Montero, Rocky Mountain News
May 22, 2004

When it came to choosing presidents over the past 26 years, few votes were as reliably Democrat as Liz Clark's.

The 46-year-old from Lafayette stood outside Spirit of the Christ Catholic Community and mentally scrolled through the list. Carter. Mondale. Clinton. Just once in the past eight elections did she not pull the lever for a Democrat. She won't say who, however, and claims not even her mother was privy to that nugget of information.

This presidential election would appear to be a no-brainer for Clark. Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, the presumptive Democratic nominee, is consistent with most of her political ideology. Like her, he's also a Catholic. Giving Clark pause, however, is Kerry's stance on abortion, an issue she hadn't strongly considered before. But the recent fallout created when several prominent bishops around the country said they wouldn't give him Communion caused her to think twice.

Michael Sheridan, bishop of the Archdiocese of Colorado Springs, took it a step further when he said recently that Catholics who vote for candidates supportive of abortion rights cannot receive the Eucharist either.

-more

[maddezmom]

1. glad I didn't convert when I married my husband

:eyes:

[saigon68]

2. HOW ABOUT CANDIDATES WHO SIGN DEATH WARRANTS ?

hey BISHOP ------HOW about Candidates who sign death warrants to execute mentally ill PRISONERS ?????

The BISHOPS SILENCE ON THIS ISSUE IS DEAFENING !!!!!!!!!

[leftchick]

10. Or how about all of those Candidates using BIRTH CONTROL?!?

It is the same thing as abortion to the Catholic Church!

[Alerter_]

11. or pro-war candidates for that matter

The Pope was against the war - why aren't they denying communion for pro-war voters?

[EdGy]

15. or the pro-choice Republicans...

like Ridge and Giuliani.

[modrepub]

18. More division

This seems like another attempt to fracture another Democratic leaning voting block. Catholics have generally supported Democrats. Notice only Democratic candidates have been targeted. The no child left behind act seeks to weaken teacher unions, recent charges against Greenpeace attempt to intimidate activists, the list goes on. I don't think its a grand conspiracy, but it does seem well targeted against Dems at this point.

[saigon68]

20. PARDON THE PUN

IT STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN

[The Zanti Regent]

19. What about PRO CHOICE AH-NOLD??????

Hmmm, will Dër Gropinater get the wafer?????

[sadiesworld]

3. Looks like RW propaganda from here.

[saigon68]

16. IT IS RW propaganda

More swill to mislead the Sheep with.

[Hekate]

41. US media's not covering "the most important story out of Rome this week"

Amazing what crap we are getting passed off as news. Try this -- the Pope is going to personally give Dubya a piece of his mind, and THIS we're not hearing on the nightly news. As a non-Catholic, all I can say is "Give 'im hell, John-Paul!"
Hekate

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But given the media's sudden preoccupation with Vatican pronouncements, how is it that if you want to read the most important story out of Rome this week, you have to go to a paper published in London?
On the front page of this weekend's edition of the Tablet, England's oldest Catholic newspaper, there is this: "The American President, George W. Bush, will be asked by the Pope at their Vatican meeting on 4 June to stop basing his policies in the Middle East on the use of force, a leading curial cardinal said this week." According to Cardinal Pio Laghi, former papal nuncio to the U.S. and a frequent messenger between the Vatican and the White House, the pontiff wants a multilateral peacekeeping force in Iraq, "one that is not under those who organized the war."
According to the cardinal, the pope intends to remind Bush that "the end never justifies the means, respect for life must always be honored and that struggle against terrorism does not justify giving up the principles of the state of law."
Meanwhile, Reuters reports that in the forthcoming issue of Inside the Vatican magazine, Cardinal James Francis Stafford, a senior American prelate serving in the Roman curia, will denounce the torture of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers and intelligence agents.

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/cl-et-rutten22may22,2,3464564.column?coll=cl-calendar

REGARDING MEDIA / TIM RUTTEN: Put faux uproar into context
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[bleedingheart]

4. How about people think for themselves and go to church for

spiritual guidance ...and I see guidance as an suggestion...not a mandate....

[SayitAintSo]

5. So are we to take moral guidance from the protectors of Pedophiles ?

Anybody have problems with that ?

[wellstone dem]

6. As a Catholic

I have always, always, always, voted for the candidate who is the most consistently pro-life on all issues. I look at the candidates stand on abortion, death-penalty, welfare, foster care reform, environment, war. And I have always had an easy decision. I vote for the pro-life candidate---the democrat.

[jpgray]

8. Bingo

Plus, supporting the right to choose isn't supporting abortions. Abortions will happen with or without Roe v. Wade, but keeping them legal will save the lives of women.

[Tina H]

7. the choice is obvious:

ditch the religion

Abortion is a basic, absolute human right. On this issue there is no room for compromise. I don't care how healthy or sick or old or new a "fetus" is -- you can never, ever tell a woman how to manage things that go on within the confines of her own skin. That is just simple common sense.

If your religion doesn't get that, then it is time to ditch or switch.

[DaveSZ]

9. We should tell all of our Catholic friends

Roe V. Wade was decided by a Republican Supreme Court, and continues to be upheld by a Republican Supreme Court.

[Tina H]

13. yes, and also . . .

it is not like Roe v Wade sets up a framework for making any compromises on abortion issues.

Roe v Wade is very clear:

abortion law must be nationally uniform

and (more importantly)

no abortion will ever be illegal again, regardless of the circumstances.

There is simply no room for compromise on abortion -- Repukes made a good law (well, legal precedent) for once and it is not fair for them to use their own decisions to try drive a wedge in their opposition.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. she doesn't get to say much about what other women may or may not do

I remember there was a time when it was the "pill" that was an evil--and one, if one was Catholic, sinned if one took the "pill" It finally played out over the years as a matter in which one "followed your conscience". This because women virtually ignored the Pope's mandate. I imagine that pill issue was as involved with the politics as the abortion issue is although I did not pay attention much to politics at that time. Now it is abortion on the same footing, however, this causes deaths--death to women. It is estimated that seven hundred women die from childbirth, and many of those who died could have been saved, had they had an abortion.


I fail to understand why this obssession and focus on the bodies and the lives of other people who are not inclined to think the same--I can understand mandating that Catholics not have an abortion, even though it is a hierarchy of robed and rather pompously dressed men telling women what to do with their own bodies, but it at least is understandable from that point of view--but I do not understand why this church thinks a democratic government needs to follow the Catholic way on this or else they will PUNISH the politician, or the one who votes for that politician.

Of course, it is not a democracy in itself, so perhaps it is is simply elitism or force of habit.

It seems clear to me--Catholics can simply choose not to have an abortion--and that should satisfy the heirophants in charge of legislating and keeping track of a woman's menstrual period. Others refuse to let the hierophants dictate to them what they may or may not do with their own bodies and have a right to do so. Both sides, it seems to me, are taken care of under the law.

[Tina H]

22. sort of disagree

I think the Church takes the position that embryos are people and that abortion therefore is a situation that deals with two people, not one. If you buy this (I sure don't!), then it makes sense and is consistent that they would advocate for legal protections for embryos.

However, the important thing to always rememebr is that an embryo is not a person. Of course, the embryo is not a person. One person cannot live inside the skin of another. That is just common sense, but somehow the Church doesn't understand it. This misunderstanding is what leads the Church to its ridiculous positions on abortion law.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. yes, that is the reasoning, however, it is full of holes.

It is to be considered a person from the moment of conception and has something called a soul at that exact moment. Still, I think, full of holes.

[Auntie Bush]

33. The soul must be pretty damn small to enter the egg at

the moment of conception. Maybe those eggs grow up to be Republican and the souls that wait to see if the egg is viable and healthy before it enters the egg ...grow up to be Democrats. Sooo, political tendencies must be inherited! Glad my intelligent soul waited to enter my body when it knew it had a good loving habitat to grow up in. Pity those souls that jumped before thinking. LOL

[roach23]

34. they are just ignorant

Considering that a lot of fertilized eggs pass right though the woman's body without resulting in a pregnancy, and like 33% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, that's awfully inept for an "omnipotent" god.

[Tina H]

35. agreed

if there is even a such of a thing as a soul, it clearly does not enter and transform the fetal matter into an infant until the new being is totally outside the carrier / mother!

It just makes no sense to say that ensoulment could occur earlier than this. For the Church to miss something this plain and obvious!!!! Well, it certainly makes you wonder about their ulterior motives (and I think we all know what those are).

[Ilsa]

14. Since when did the Catholic church become a single issue institution?

I am outraged by this. I guess it's okay for a candidate to rob and murder and commit manslaughter, but God forbid he support a woman's right to choose for herself.

I wish this and the contraception issue were enough to get the membership to reconsider and flock to another denomination.

[bullimiami]

17. The Church is full of hipocracy.

Preists are guilty of molestation.
Murderers, thieves, liars....

These all get communion.

Maybe they need a serious rethink of their priorities.

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. So they think people won't vote for Kerry

because he's pro-choice but they will vote for the most miserable, incompetent, failure in US history, who has killed and tortured 1000's of people in just 3 short years? Give me a break.

[Liberal Gramma]

23. Between a rock and a hard place

I'd like someone to ask the Catholic hierarchy what a parishoner is supposed to do if the choice is between two candidates who support policies antithetical to the church? Kerry is pro-abortion, Bush is pro-death penalty, pro-war. Is abortion the trump card here?

[polmaven]

32. Sort of....

I heard a "spokesman" say yesterday that the abortion ban is actually Church doctrine, while the death penalty and the Iraq war are just the Pope's "own opinion". In other words, real, live "post-born" are not really important enough to protect by church doctrine, just the "pre-born".

I really think this incursion into the privacy of the voting booth will hurt the Catholic Church. Especially among women.

[lupita]

24. I chose to leave the catholic faith

I am not going to let them control my conscience

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. I left the catholic church

when I graduated from 8th grade and the nuns couldn't make be go to mass anymore. I had seen enough of their hypocracy by then. For example, on the day I made my first communion the pastor couldn't hold the chalice still because he was too hung over.

That doesn't mean there are good people in church but they are few and far between and the bad ones do much more damage.

But in this day and age, I really don't understand why anyone should listen to a bunch of corrupt, old, pompous frauds?

[trapper914]

25. Or...

How about candidates who say they are pro-life, but own a big chunk of a hospital chain that performs abortions (Bill Frist)?

[koopie57]

26. that is an easy one...

the answer lies in "says". You "say" what you are and then you can do whatever you want. Lie! It is not really a sin when republicans are in charge. George fixed it with the big daddy you know.

[indypaul]

30. Bishop Sheridan nor any other

person here on earth is my judge. His opinion on how
and for whom one votes is just that, his opinion. If
we have learned anything in the past 2000 years it most
certainly is that theocratic governments are to be
avoided as well as dictatorships and absolute monarchies.

[TankLV]

28. Which proves just how dumb as shit she is.

Hint: Being pro-choice IS compatible and not in conflict with Catholic teaching.

Being pro-choice is NOT being pro-abortion.

You can be anti-abortion - and in compliance with Catholic Church teachings - and pro-choice. You don't believe in abortion for yourself, but let others' decide for themselves.

The Catholic church does not insist on FORCING OTHERS TO YOUR POINT OF VIEW, last I heard. If that were so, then we are in serious trouble folks!

[TahitiNut]

29. Yup. (It's called "free will.")

[DaveSZ]

36. It seems to me like this bishop is trying to tell people to vote for *

If so, I think this is a disturbing trend for the Catholic Church.

Bush doesn't care about children's education, the environment, healthcare, and he's a warmonger.

But, as long as Jesus talks back to him, that makes him the best man to vote for?

[Baltimoreboy]

42. The Catholic Church

Is the true arbiter of what THEY say is their teaching. If they say that being pro-Choice is incompatible, that is THEIR choice.

[stickdog]

37. Simple. Order only from the left side of menu at the Catholic Cafeteria.

[keithyboy]

38. If you are not planning on having an abortion, don't worry about it!

Vote your conscience. How many issues will really affect your life? If abortion is not one of them, cross it off the list and vote on all the other issues.

[PurityOfEssence]

39. Revoke the Church's tax exempt status nationwide

If they're going to be a political organization, the let them pay for their own municipal services and behave like the service corportation they are. Let's not stop there, there are certainly other denominations that could use a comeuppance; the Southern Baptists are deserving of the same treatment.

[Hekate]

40. Catholic doctrine is more nuanced than that

This controversy is being fueled by a handful of right-wingers and of course by our faux media.

There's an excellent article in yesterday's Los Angeles Times -- I recommend the whole thing, but here's bits of it from the beginning and middle.

Hekate
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http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/cl-et-rutten22may22,2,3464564.column?coll=cl-calendar

REGARDING MEDIA / TIM RUTTEN
Put faux uproar into context
May 22 2004

The great Jesuit theologian John Courtney Murray... once wrote that "the law must countenance many evils that morality forbids." If that sort of nuanced religious thinking seems somehow novel, it isn't because it's absent from contemporary Catholicism's moral reasoning. It is, however, ignored in most of the mainstream American news media's coverage of the church.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
All but buried in the attention given ...Sheridan et al are the quiet voices of other, far more experienced and influential prelates. Cardinal Roger M. Mahony of Los Angeles, for example, said there will be no denial of Communion in his archdiocese. ...Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., wrote ...that he too opposes withholding the sacrament. Moreover ... during a recent visit to the Vatican, "it was clear that so many of the highest authorities in the church are in agreement with my position."
Archbishop John Vlazny of Portland wrote: "... if they are voting for that particular politician because, in their judgment, other candidates fail significantly in some matters of great importance, for example, war and peace, human rights and economic justice … then reception of Holy Communion seems both appropriate and beneficial." ... Add opposition to capital punishment and a call for universal healthcare to Archbishop Vlazny's list and you've pretty well covered the issues on which the American Catholic bishops are unable to get a serious hearing in the U.S. press.
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