U.S. Military Says Shiite Rebels Seem to Have Ceded Karbala

[maddezmom]

KARBALA, Iraq, Sunday, May 23 — American commanders said early Sunday that insurgents loyal to a rebel cleric appeared to have given up control of central Karbala, where they had been shielding themselves at two shrines.

~snip~

"It looks like they just packed up and went home," Col. Peter Mansoor, commander of the First Brigade of the First Armored Division, said in an operations tent on the city outskirts where he monitored field reports. Referring to Mr. Sadr, Colonel Mansoor said, "I think his days are numbered."

~snip~

At 12:45 a.m. on Sunday, soldiers at the scene of the raid saw 10 Iraqi police cars and three police pickup trucks speeding up to the outskirts of the old city with their lights flashing. The police officers told the soldiers they were doing a patrol. The fact that the police could travel around the old city, if only on the outskirts, indicated that the insurgents were no longer in control, Colonel Mansoor said.

During the raid early Sunday, Iraqis at a nearby teahouse told soldiers that busloads of fighters from Falluja who came to town last week had left Friday. The fighters fled after concluding that they could not stand up to American tanks, these Iraqis said.

An Iraqi reporter for The New York Times in Karbala said he had seen militiamen putting their weapons in bags in recent days and trying to leave the city. Some residents of the city have distributed fliers denouncing Mr. Sadr and the presence of his fighters.

~snip~
more: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/international/middleeast/23KARB.html?th

More melting away?

[burrowowl]

1. Faded into the

landscape to fight another day? And maybe to spare the city?

[ColdWarZoomie]

21. Yep-

There were only 3-5,000 insurgents causing all this trouble 6 months ago.

Interesting how we keep killing and capturing hundreds every week yet the same ole 3-5,000 dead-enders remain.

Sadr's guys took a gamble that we would not go in with overwhelming force. They have now learned that we are willing and over-powering. So it's time for a change in tactics to meet their strategic goals.

Fact is, we are now *responding* to the Iraqi's moves. They will melt into the woodwork, rise again, and we'll respond with overwhelming force while the political situation disintegrates.

[Ella]

33. "The guerrilla must move amongst the people . . .

as a fish swims in the sea."

More quotes from Chairman Mao who became chairman because, among other reasons, he was a superb guerrilla fighter and leader.

http://www.military-quotes.com/mao-zedong.htm

I suspect Sadr is aware that if the Iraqi people are happy to have his fighters "swim" among them they cannot lose. If the people turn against them they can never win. So I suspect he and his men have relationships to repair before they can continue fighting.

The next week or two will tell the tale.

[Jacobin]

42. Preeecisely

We haven't learned a damn thing about guerilla warfare. Not one damn thing.

[saigon68]

52. US MILITARY IDIOTS

They refuse to Read Chairman Mao or General Giap,

In a fight for Freedom, the fighters must move quietly like fish in the lake and work with the people.

Don't worry NEOCONS they''ll be back later to kick your ass--

LOL

[Journeyman]

2. So much as the Iraqi army did in April 2003. . .

the Mahdi have blended back into the populous, taking their weapons with them. Now they'll bide their time, harass our soldiers daily, and wait for their next opportunity to strike in force. Meanwhile, our puffed up command will believe the insurgents defeated, and that Sadr's "days are numbered." And the spiral downward continues -- somewhat slowed, but unabated. . .

[daleo]

3. I guess they decided not to fight 40 tanks right then and there

They will be back, at a time and place of their own choosing. That is how guerrilla war works, Mansoor. Expect an explosion soon, in or near the Green Zone. Just a hunch.

[izzie]

4. Makes me think about reading about the partisans of WW2

Most were still their after the war was over and Tito (AKA) took over the govt. in his country and even Stalin had trouble with him.

[Kagemusha]

5. So after three weeks, the US has conquered the holy shrines.

Someone besides me see something very wrong with this image?

[Disturbed]

6. US Commanders...

are either delusional or they are lying. Hmmm...could be both.

[WVhill]

7. It makes no difference.

Most Iraqis don't want a war fought in their neighborhood. The peace gives us more time to build up the Iraqi police forces and ferret out weapons caches. We're still finding large caches of military stuff. The odd AK47 aren't an issue. The RPGs, especially the latest version are a concern as are the shells used for improvised bombs. The more of those we take out of circulation the safer the situation for our folks and the Iraqis that want a normal life.

[ze_dscherman]

8. You seem to forget

That an overwhelming majority of Iraqis wants the US occupiers out? That there is no possible peace in Iraq because people are willing to fight for that? That there will be no "normal life" as long as U.S. troops are in Iraq?

You also seem to forget that much more ordinary people in Iraq are killed by U.S. troops than by militias.

[maddezmom]

28. looks like the US military is getting impatient w/ Iraq Police force

By Ibon Villelabeitia

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. forces handed a list of 25 suspects in the lynching of four American contractors in Falluja to Iraqi police Sunday, a sign of their growing impatience with the lack of progress in arresting the culprits.

~snip~

"The arrest of those people is a priority for the coalition forces," Colonel John Toolan, regimental commander of the 1st Marines Regiment told reporters in Falluja, after handing over the list at a security meeting with Iraqi police.

~snip~

Falluja's Police Chief Sabar al-Janabi said his men were doing all they could to catch those responsible, as well as other criminals in the Sunni Muslim city west of Baghdad.


"We are making arrests every day. We have caught a lot of car thieves, we will soon arrest the terrorists," he said, referring to the contractors' killers.


U.S. forces said the suspects on their list participated in the murder and mutilation of the contractors. They declined to reveal the names, but said they included some "outsiders."

~snip~
more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=7&u=/nm...

[WVhill]

30. We have to give them a chance to stand on their own two legs

before we go around them. That seems to be the procedure that's developed. We give the clerics and the Iraqis a shot at maintaining order with the caveat that if they don't, we will. Sadr is wanted for killing a rival cleric. He has to go to trial. Same with the ones responsible for the contractors' deaths.

[NickB79]

37. They had plenty of chances

During the widespread uprisings throughout April, thousands of newly trained Iraqi police were employed to help control the fighting. After the fighting died down a bit, it was then reported that 40% of the Iraqi forces refused to fight their own people, and 10% actually joined the rebel forces and fought against us. We spend time, money and equipment training and arming them, and a full 50% either refuse to fight or shoot back at us! The Iraqi security forces had plenty of chances to shine, and they failed miserably. If those are the guys we're leaving in control of this country, there is no chance for democracy in Iraq.

[saigon68]

68. THOSE CREEPS WERE MERCENARIES

They were not contactors. A mob got them and killed them in revenge for what the US was doing to the Iraqi people.

[NNN0LHI]

84. A contractor is someone who comes to your house with a lunch bucket...

...to fix your plumbing. The 4 guys who got roasted in Falluja were nothing but hired killers. We call them hit men here in the USA. You want them brought to justice so bad, you go catch the people who killed them. Onward christian soldier.

Don

[NickB79]

36. Um, they have enough munitions to stay stocked for DECADES!!!

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of weapons depots scattered across Iraq right now, storing the conventional weapons Saddam stockpiled over the last 20 years. Most of them cover hundreds of acres of land each, with a combined armament supply reaching into the MILLIONS of tons!!! These depots are poorly guarded, if they are even guarded at all, and these guards are more often than not Iraqi police not above taking bribes to turn their heads while some of their inventory is "misplaced." Even if only 10% is still usable for weapons, there is enough there to last for decades at the current rate. Just look at the bombing of the UN building last fall with 500-lb aircraft bombs on a flatbed truck, or the recent roadside attack with a howitzer shell containing decomposing sarin components. The only sources for these are munitions depots, the same ones we're supposed to be controlling.

The military has already stated it will take at least 15 years to carry out controlled explosions to destroy all the munitions, but even assuming we blew it all up tomorrow, the Iraqis would still have plenty of weapons. Their borders are very porous right now, with little in the way of border patrols. Their weapons of choice are Russian and Chinese-made weapons, very cheap to buy in bulk. With hundreds of millions of Saddam's dollars unaccounted for, it's a safe bet that much of it went into the hands of Iraqi Republican Guard generals still fighting in Iraq, who are now using the money to supply their fellow guerrilla fighters. What they can't scavenge, they can afford to buy.

Invading a mosque to destroy a single weapons cache is like stomping ants: it might feel satisfying to kill one, but you'll never be able to put a dent in their population.

[WVhill]

48. If the munitions are not stockpiled near major population centers,

booby trap them and walk off. Since there's no WMD, what do we care? The border issue is a huge problem. Now's the time to use any landmines that Saddam stockpiled. Anyone else remember the SCUD launchers that went missing after GW I? What happened to those?

[mmm]

51. you want to use landmines on innocent Iraqis?

I don't know how to comment on that without getting
tossed from DU. (How do you feel about the KKK?)

[WVhill]

53. There are ways of getting around that.

Publicize the hell out of it with signs and remote speakers activated by motion. It's all standard stuff. The only ones at risk are those both deaf and blind and there's no reason for them to be out in the dessert by themselves.

[NickB79]

58. And knowing how well the military has worked so far in Iraq

All the signs and speakers will be in English.

Would you support putting the same setup along the US-Mexican border to stop illegal immigrants? After all, this is where narcotics that kill thousands of Americans per year are smuggled in. We lose more US lives annually to drug use than to the attacks in Iraq, so by your logic we would be even more justified to landmine our own border, right?

[WVhill]

72. First be assured that

I'm not in favor of the drug war. Second: I believe the folks entering illegally via our border with Mexico are probably some of the hardest working folks on the planet. Would I mine our border. Nope! I'd open the gates. I haven't read of any Americans from south of the border converting to radical Islam. Have you?

[saigon68]

70. Here's your Mercenaries

[NickB79]

56. "Use any landmines that Saddam stockpiled"

Let me get this straight. We go into Iraq claiming we're going to remove Saddam from power because he has killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. After he's gone, we place his own landmines along the entire Iraqi border, sit back, and watch as thousands more civilians are killed and maimed by them? And we'd be better than him how again? Even if someone attempted to set up such a system, you're looking at laying mines along thousands of miles of border. You'd be looking at over a million landmines required for the area. Landmines that will remain lethal for years, if not decades, to come. Remember all those landmines laid by both sides in Vietnam? They're still killing hundreds of farmers annually.

To think you could lace the entire border of a country the size of California with landmines, put up a few warning signs about them and walk away while civilians die is probably one of the most callous ideas I've heard in a long time.

[WVhill]

60. Years ago the state built a new road in a mountainous part of southern WV.

They wanted to keep heavy coal trucks off the subgrade until the pavement was laid. To do that they had the contractor take the lead oxide out of the loader tires and fill 55 gal. barrels. Each of those barrels weighed over a ton. They used the barrels to make a barricade with the spaces left between the barrels too short to allow a truck or car to squeeze through. Unfortunately they didn't have enough lead oxide to fill all the barrels in the barricade so some were empty.

Days later they came back and found that someone had driven on the gravel subgrade after moving one of the barrels aside. the barrel that was moved was one that weighed over 2,000 lbs. The barrels on both side that weren't moved, were empty.

I take it you've never played poker.

[NickB79]

64. So you're advocating bluffing them?

As your own story illustrates, someone took a chance and moved the barrel. It is funny that he wound up chosing the most difficult barrel to move, but the fact remains that he tried, just as many Iraqis would try to cross the border despite the warnings. Some would be successful, some wouldn't. It would be a fair bet that many of those that fail would be civilians.

I've played poker many times. I know that, for every player who puts up a bluff, there are those that will call them on it. Even worse, there are those that will call thinking it's a bluff only to end up losing to a better hand. Only in this case, losing means losing your life, not your money.

[WVhill]

71. I've seen photos of vehicles stacked up to cross the legal access points

between Mexico and the US. How many folks have you heard of crossing the border for legal purposes by swimming the Rio Grande and hiking for miles at the same time risking death from the climate?

If they're involved in something illegal, they take their chances. Maybe, in the case of insurgents, they pick the empty barrel. Maybe they go boom instead. Free will can be a bitch. If they have nothing to hide, they can cross at the checkpoints and not take a chance of going boom.

[NNN0LHI]

9. "Seem to Have Ceded Karbala?" Why don't they go on in and confirm it?

What is this? A "faith based" victory? Go right on in boys. There appears to be nothing to worry about. Maybe?

Don

[WVhill]

10. The proof

is the progress we can make in other areas if we're not diverted by insurgents. Oil production is close to 2M barrels per day. That is almost equal to the additional capacity the Saudis can turn off and on in a short period of time. If that can be doubled or tripled and maintained, we've won. At some point the fact of growing Iraqi oil production will make a difference in global oil markets.

Traders drive the markets. Once they realize higher levels of Iraqi oil production are there to stay, it takes the edge off other factors that can drive the market by introducing uncertainty. That is why many nations hope we will not succeed in Iraq. They don't care about the Iraqis or Iraq. They don't want us putting them in a headlock. That's exactly what's happening. The Syrians, Saudis and the mullahs of Iran are all at risk.

As long as the Iraqi police can do their job, we don't have to respond. Our troops can be used to better purpose.

[starroute]

11. Well, it's a theory . . .

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that it doesn't matter whether there is actual peace in Iraq, as longer as we control the oil and can use that to tell off the Saudis and prop up our own economy.

Americans can keep dying, Iraqis can keep dying, none of it matters as long as we can swat down those pesky insurgents long enough to keep the oil flowing.

Do I have the gist of your argument?

[WVhill]

16. Not really.

the Saudis were behind 9/11 either directly through the Wahhabis or indirectly through so-called charities. The Saudis have curtailed the Wahhabi clerics somewhat but still have a long way to go to reform. It's not a question of telling them off. This is radical Islam versus Western Civilization. Oil is a weapon.

"Americans can keep dying, Iraqis can keep dying, none of it matters as long as we can swat down those pesky insurgents long enough to keep the oil flowing." AND the everyday life of the average Iraqi improves beyond anything experienced previously. It does matter if nothing good comes out of it. Otherwise the deaths were for naught.

At some point, as has already happened, the Iraqis themselves will take care of the insurgent problem. The insurgents need popular support and they don't have that locked up.

[jmcgowanjm]

14. Can you source those production figures please?

[WVhill]

18. Iraqi oil production figures.

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/powers/2004/0201.html

From what was reported recently, with no interruptions, production is still bumping 2m barrels per day. The Saudi figures should also be on the net. I believe the Saudis are at 10m with the ability to quickly go to 12m barrels per day.

If the Iraqi can reach 3.5m that will be close to doubling output. Tripling output (about 5.4m) will obviously require more investment and more time. Reaching prewar levels (3.5m, close to double current levels) shouldn't be difficult if the insurgents are handled.

[jmcgowanjm]

22. This article should not reassure

Iraq in December pumped 1.98 million barrels a day, based
on Bloomberg data.

The highest output since the war started was 2.38
million barrels a day in March, or 4 percent below pre-war
levels.

(These are snapshot figures designed to disguise. Like if I drove 90mph for 1 km at a certain time and then said that's
the speed I'm driving to my destination during that certain time
even though the rest of my journey was driving at 50 mpk.)

"The strategy was to have another country be able to
provide more crude that was competitive to Saudi Arabia," said
Kamel al-Harami, former president of Kuwait's Q8 brand of
petrol stations in Europe and Thailand. "We're in the second
year
and we're just not seeing it."

Astute investors should recognize the implications of
declining worldwide oil production and adjust their portfolios
accordingly.

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=613&fArticleId=2081274

One of the most important assumptions underlying the
oil market is that the Saudis can act as almost swing
producers in the event of a supply disruption. That is far
from clear.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/18/1084783514440.html

[WVhill]

29. Long term we could see some unhappy outcomes.

If world wide oil production falls in coming years, Alaska is going to look like a pin cushion once the oil companies have their way. Same if the production doesn't fall but instability in the Mideast prevails.

[jmcgowanjm]

35. When world wide oil production falls in coming years

it will be too late to make Alaska a pin cushion.

Production will fall and the instant it does, the entire
global financial derivitives $150T inverted pyramid will
fall.

The good news is that there won't be enough oil
to cause the Global Warming Scenario.

Another shattered illusion for our friends at the Department
of Defense. How much more can they take?"-
Justin Raimondo

The astonishing punch line at the end reveals that the
people who are watching the movie in horror are actually
the same people who are IN the movie committing the
bloody murders.

You can imagine the wide-eyed hysterical laughter when
the main character realizes he is the person in the movie
doing the killing. In fact, if you watch the evening news
tonight, and then go into your bathroom and stare into the
mirror, you can probably re-create the scene yourself.
-John Kaminski

[WVhill]

54. Bush never gave up on drilling Alaska.

If gas prices go much higher, Congress is going to hear a lot of constituent screaming to drill. Forget the fact that Alaska oil goes to the west coast or to Japan. California doesn't have the refinery capacity to handle more oil and California gas or the oil doesn't get shipped to the Midwest or east coast.

I wouldn't be surprised if the drilling isn't a big topic when the next congressional seesion starts. Of course the oil traders will bid the price down once Congress gives in, leading most folks to believe that turning Alaska into a pin cushion really chopped prices.

[Bridget Burke]

44. So gas up your Hummer....

And roll on down the road. Let's just "handle" those insurgents.

Too bad you can't just put blood directly into the tank.

[WVhill]

55. Sorry, to disappoint.

I drive an old 6 cylinder engined truck. No one is getting rich off me.

[NNN0LHI]

15. How many of your family members are in Iraq dying and being maimed...

...to keep the oil flowing and to help keep the markets stable may I ask?

Don

[WVhill]

19. None

Most of us served in the WWII and Vietnam eras.

[NNN0LHI]

26. What does "us" mean? Got a mouse in your pocket?

And don't veterans from WW II and Vietnam have children, grand children, and great grandchildren? Why are none of them in your family doing their part in Iraq getting killed and blown up for the oil that you suggest will stabilize the markets for those like you who are so concerned about it?

Don

[WVhill]

31. As for immediate family

without considering sons, daughters and grandchildren, everyone including my mother served. Neither of my kids has chosen to enter the service although my daughter considered joining the Navy after HS. She chose college instead.

As for others, I suspect some may be serving but none of the ones I know about. My mother's side of the family is huge, because of numbers alone, some must be in the services.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. Your post is chock full of wishful thinking. Not going to happen. Period.

[WVhill]

20. Time will tell.

Almost 2m barrel a day is not to be sneezed at. The insurgents are desparate to prevent that. Even after the pipeline attacks, the production was 1.5m barrels a day.

As for wishful thinking. We owe the Iraqis a life free from chaos and strife. It's time to clean up the mess. THEN go home.

[jmcgowanjm]

24. The production is 1.5m bbls per day

And the promise was after we invaded Iraq
oil would be in the low 20's.

And we would make Iraq a Swing Producer.

And by rapidly pumping these fields we're
going to get less oil in the future.

And I'm sure Kuwait is still taking oil out of
Ramallah, the reason for GW1.

When stealing you do not pamper the victim.

[WVhill]

32. Lets hope those promises are fulfilled in the future.

[NNN0LHI]

38. Yea. Thats just what we need. More "faith based" oil production n/t

[NickB79]

39. They were doing over 2 million bpd BEFORE we invaded

So, they were doing over 2 million bpd even under economic sanctions, we invade, and then their production drops. We're still struggling to get back to normal, which we still haven't reached. If the premise of this war was to get more oil, we would have actually been better off NOT invading, since we were getting more oil per day before. It would have been cheaper to have bought the oil rather than spend hundreds of billions on an invasion.

It's like Bush's "job growth" numbers. He came into office, lost 3 million jobs, but then trumpets 500,000 new jobs created 2-3 yrs later. We're still 2.5 million jobs in the hole!

[WVhill]

57. A lot of that I agree with, with one exception.

Saddam, had major problems expanding oil production because of the sanctions.

[NickB79]

65. Actually, it's worse than that

Saddam had problems not only expanding oil production post-1991, but also had serious problems simply maintaining the existing ones. Since he was limited to how much oil he could sell due to sanctions, there was no incentive for him to maintain any more than of the wells than were needed to produce monthly quotas. It has already been widely reported that it will cost many billions of dollars to rebuild the Iraqi oil infrastructure. Some oil deposits have been managed so poorly that the wells have lost sufficient pressure to maintain production rates.

Now, our own sanctions are coming back to bite us in the ass as we have to spend our own money to rebuild oil wells our sanctions forced into disrepair. All this at the same time oil prices hit all-time highs. Ironic.

[Jacobin]

43. You DO realize, I hope, that the latest poll in Iraq

says that 87% of Iraqis want us gone right now. Are you suggesting that they aren't capable of making a good decision about our presence?

How is it that we are "cleaning up" and "stabilizing" Iraq right now?

Our presence there is what leads to the violence.

We screwed up big time.

[WVhill]

61. I don't think we have a choice

about Iraq. I agree we screwed the pooch. We never had a plan for after the invasion. I still think there's too much to lose if we bail.

[NNN0LHI]

78. Bail now or bail later

All that is left is to find out how many names you want for there to be on the Iraq War Memorial when we leave.

Don

[maddezmom]

27. Kufa is a hotspot now & doubt they care about oil production

~~
"An estimated 20 Moqtada militia were killed when coalition soldiers returned fire after being attacked with rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire during a raid on the Selah mosque in Kufa" early Sunday, a military spokesman said.


Witnesses described tanks smashing through the gates of the mosque as helicopters hovered overhead in what would be one of the biggest military operations by US-led forces on the outskirts of the Shiite holy city of Najaf.


The dead and 54 wounded were taken to two hospitals in Kufa, doctors said. The US military said there were no reports of coalition casualties.


"Tanks crashed through the gates of the mosque compound during the night and soldiers entered while helicopters hovered overhead," said Hussein Yasser, 32, who lives near the mosque. The fighting lasted about an hour, he added.


Blood, spent shells and tank tracks marked the ground of the mosque compound, while the walls were riddled with bullet holes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1511&ncid=1511&e=2&u=/afp/20040523/wl_afp/iraq_worldwrap_040523114848

[kentuck]

13. The American troops ceded first....

Although there is little mention of the "deal"..

[SandyUSA]

12. Important info at other link on this site

The significance of the Mosque that has been violated while civilans have been killed by US forces in the process is being discussed at this link. This is after the older clerics had urged a truce that we have betrayed. If you want to know what the Mahdi Army really is, check this out:

I am new and not sure how to link from one message to another. Here is the URL:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x576421

[bemildred]

23. You link works fine.

I think they had best watch out for snipers.
It seems likely the withdrawal is tactical. The local
commanders - if they have any sense - know this, but
we need a win. so it will be propped us as a win as
long as that works.

[keithyboy]

25. They live to fight another day. But they kept us busy and hysterical

Wonder how much ammo we used up?

[WVhill]

34. From what I've read our soldiers and the Brits

are trained marksman. Other than close quarters, I would expect we've used more ammo from sheer weight of numbers. As for hysterical, I think methodical would be more descriptive. A recent dustup when insurgents outnumbered and attacked Highlanders led to many of the insurgents, the ones who didn't run off, being bayoneted when the Scots ran short of ammo. Our forces know how to stop insurgents.

The war has turned political which eliminates a pure military solution.

[NickB79]

40. They are also human

A soldier capable of hitting targets on the 500 yd line all day long when he is relaxed, perfect weather, no pressure, means crap when you've just been ambushed. You say you've served before. Have you ever been in an ambush or under heavy fire? You shoot anything that's moving that looks even vaguely like an enemy soldier. You "spray and pray", so to speak.

Methodical? Over 5000 Iraqi civilians have been reported killed in the past year since "major combat" ended. Was that methodical? I hope like hell it was not.

[Bridget Burke]

45. When did the war "turn political"?

It was politically motivated from the beginning.

And what's a "pure military solution?"

[WVhill]

47. Pure military means

The Pentagon plans and implements action without second guessing from the White House. In other words, screw Bush's re-election concerns. If insurgents attack our troops we pursue until they're captured or dead.

[Bridget Burke]

49. Just kill 'em all!

They're only Islamofascist terrorists sitting on our oil.

So much testosterone, so little brain power.

[WVhill]

62. Be reasonable Bridget.

Bush can't allow that because he wants to be re-elected.

[NickB79]

50. You bet!

And if that means killing thousands of women and children, so be it!

If that means bombing mosques, so be it!

If that means reinstating the draft to make up for all the casualties we would take, so be it!

If that means deploying tactical battlefield nukes, so be it!

If that means drawing Iran, Syria, and every Al Queda fighter in the Middle East into a multi-country war, so be it!

And if that means killing every man, woman and child within 500 miles of every oil well in Iraq to get that sweet, sweet crude, SO BE IT!!!

[WVhill]

63. I don't think so.

All that killing that is.

[NickB79]

66. But that's what "pure military" is

Killing, plain and simple. You yourself said to pursue them unti they are captured or caught. Currently we are doing just that, pursuing them. As we do so, we are destroying mosques, homes, and any civilians that get in the way. This simply feeds back into a cycle of violence, as those that have lost their homes, mosques and families pick up arms to fight against us.

We were far more "pure military" in Vietnam than we are being right now in Iraq. We carpet-bombed cities. We sprayed millions of acres of forest and farmland with Agent Orange. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. We deployed massive amounts of landmines that are still active to this day. We flooded the country with hundreds of thousands of troops, absorbed 58,000 deaths, and still maintained high troop numbers for years. And we lost. The Vietnamese didn't even have the fervent religious convictions that many in the Muslim world embrace, and still kicked our asses. I shudder to think how many thousands of soldiers we would lose if we embarked on a "pure military" campaign right now.

[WVhill]

73. Actually Nick

the South Vietnamese army decimated the Viet Cong during Tet. They had huge losses from the surprise attack during a time of supposed truce but they stood their ground and inflicted worse on the VC and stopped them from taking any of their objectives. Of course Walter Cronkite reporting from his hotel in Saigon with the backdrop of flames missed that story.

We didn't lose. We capitulated to the shock of the North Vietnamese.

[saigon68]

77. That war was lost long before TET

[WVhill]

79. The war was lost when the media and the protestors

deemed it was lost AND before that when the politicians set the stage by hamstringing the military.

[bemildred]

81. Bwaaahhhahhhahhahaha!

That's the funniest thing I've read today.
I haven't seen that in a long time. It's ridiculous
you know. The media deemed it was lost because it was
lost. What do you think we should have done, turned the
place into green glass? That's the only thing they held
back. Do you think they bankrupted the country for fifteen
years to LOSE? Bwaaaahaaahaaahaaa!

[WVhill]

85. I didn't realize the media has the ultimate say.

For the facts on the war look up AND read at least one of the books written by a North Vietnamese general. You're in for a surprise. There were a couple of others published in this country, but I'd doubt you'd believe any of it.

But a North Vietnamese general? Why would he lie?

[bemildred]

88. Me neither, the media was not really relevant.

We all knew what a bunch of liars they were back then.
That was your excuse.

It's General Giap. He is very good. He kicked our ass.
Did you know Saddam liked to read his book?

[saigon68]

82. The War was lost when the USA went in to replace the French

A war of Nationalism can never be won by a foreign power.

The USA killed 3 million Vietnamese--what you are telling the people here at DU is that if the USA would have killed 10 or 20 million Vietnamese then General Thieu would be the "ELECTED FREE PRESIDENT OF DEMOCRATIC VIET-NAM"

NEOCON Perle and the boys obtain arousal fantasizing over victory in Viet-Nam. So do the rest of the DRAFT-DODGERS Cheney and the Chimpanzee.

Tellement très désolé pour les Etats-Unis au Vietnam

[WVhill]

86. I don't remember

posting "the USA would have killed 10 or 20 million Vietnamese then General Thieu would be the "ELECTED FREE PRESIDENT OF DEMOCRATIC VIET-NAM"

Refresh my memory and while you're at it, look up how many Vietnamese died after we left Vietnam.

[saigon68]

87. Not enough for you apparenty

But then I guess you were there too?

[saigon68]

69. Kill Em all and let God sort Em out ?

Eh sporty--- Hell of a strategy.

How many are you going to kill thousands? Tens of Thousands? Hundreds of Thousands? Millions? I think NOT.

[WVhill]

74. Let's not be dramatic.

BTW, do you know where that quote originated. I'll give you a hint, look up the first inquisition and the Cathers.

[saigon68]

76. I know where it came from

Its what the War Criminal Bush is doing in IRAQ

It is attributed to Arnaud-Armaury, the Abbot of Citeaux, and "spiritual advisor" to the Albigensian Crusade.

Pope Innocent III ordered the Albigensian Crusade, to purge southern France of the Cathari heretics. It began in the summer of 1209, with their first target - the town of Beziers. The Catholic faithful in Beziers refused to give up the Catharis among themselves. The crusaders invaded. When Arnaud-Amaury was asked whom to kill he replied "Kill them all. God will know his own." They did. The crusaders slaughtered nearly everyone in town, over 20,000, either burned or clubbed to death. Thus they achieved their goal of killing the estimated 200 heretics who were hiding in the town among the Catholic faithful. The brutal crusade continued on for the next twenty years. Eventually the Catholics devised a new approach for dealing with the remaining Cathari heretics in France. It was called "the Inquisition"

[WVhill]

80. Notice any parallels?

Like God fearing Christians killing Christians in that instance? Muslims killing Muslims? So which is worse? Killing for greed? Killing for the sake of religion? Or how about power? When a nation is shown to be incapable of protecting it's own, things start to get confusing. Just remember it's us vs. them to keep it simple and relieve the conscience.

[saigon68]

83. Its more than US vs Them Its the dialectic between good and evil

If Saddam had done this to OUR POWs the DEATH PENALTY would be in play

But Pray tell, How could Saddam top this ???

When the POW had a PLASTIC FLASHLIGHT RAMMED UP HIS RECTUM ???

When a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG BIT HIM IN THE TESTICLES ???

When the POW had a 220 Volt wire attached to the TIP OF HIS PENIS ???

When Lynndie England was encouraged to help the POWs obtain erections so they could perform
ORAL SEX ACTS ON EACH OTHER and the PERKY PRINCESS OF ABU GHRAIB
PRISON COULD SHOUT "HE'S GETTING HARD"???

When a POW was beaten to death, HIS BODY PACKED IN ICE and TAKEN OUT IN THE
DESERT AND DUMPED Or the Photos of Graner and Lynndie’s sidekick the Lovely Sabrina
Harman smiling over the dead corpse.

When Lynndie apparently on Orders collected a number of Dirty Used KOTEX MAXI-PADS to
be worn and tied to the Heads of POWs, Or when Graner made POW’s eat food thrown in
Toilets and then commented that the Prison Guard part of him said he loved to see them “PISS
THEMSELVES”

How about interrogators torturing children and the presenting them to the parents to get them to
reveal WHATEVER?

When photos show a Naked man covered in Feces beaten in the head by a THUG holding a police
Baton?



When a Civilian Interrogator ANALLY RAPED A 16 YEAR OLD BOY IN FRONT OF GI
WITNESSES ( who apparently used a camcorder to memorialize the child’s screams as his
ANUS was savagely attacked) and the RAPIST is going to get a free pass because he was under
NO ONES JURISDICTION ???

Sometimes its hard to tell who is good and who is evil

[WVhill]

89. Maybe we need better labeling laws.

Do you think that might help? I'm trying to figure out how evil the Army is. Are we working on a 50/50 relationship, or is it tipped one way or another?

Was Saddam a 1/99 (good/evil) kind of guy? Or does it depend on the evaluator? If we captured one of the original 9/11 pilots before 9/11 and tortured him into revealing the plot how would you label that?

Likewise, we're court martialing enlisted over the Iraqi prisoner abuse. If Ms. England did all you say and gets, say five years of hard labor in Leavenworth, is that a good thing or are we back to the Yin Yang of it. How much must us good-hearted folks demand she suffer? Of course we're relieved of that obligation since the UCMJ will take care of it nicely. Isn't that convenient?

I guess I'm asking how do you react to evil? Stay home behind locked doors and hope no one come knocking? Decide to take the day off instead of going to work at the World Trade Center? Does the end justify the means? Did the information we obtained from the prisoners save any lives or are all military guards sadists that just happened to find their calling and it was all a travesty?

[Bridget Burke]

90. Again the 9/11 link.

"Decide to take the day off instead of going to work at the World Trade Center?"

Even Bush has discredited this--in so many words. He still uses the phrase "since 9/11" to excuse anything from wrecking the economy to starting an illegal war.

But we're fighting against "evil" so killing & torture are A-OK.

[NickB79]

41. How much ammo used up? A LOT!!!

From the MN Star Tribune:

"Alliant Techsystems Inc., the Edina-based munitions maker that is the U.S. Army's sole supplier of bullets, said Thursday it can't keep up with demand from the Army, which is rising to its highest level since the Vietnam War.

Alliant made 1 billion rounds of small-caliber ammunition last year for the Army and will make 1.2 billion rounds this year. But the Army intends to set its annual requirement significantly higher, possibly as high as 2 billion rounds a year, and plans to look for a second supplier, Alliant Chief Executive Officer Daniel Murphy said."

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/4763567.html

[yellowcanine]

46. Well, the Viet Cong used to give up territory and live to fight another

day as well. Jeez, you would think the military commanders would know a little history even if * doesn't. Guerrilla wars aren't about holding territory-just about everybody knows that, except, apparently Col. Monsoor and his superiors.

[Teaser]

59. stratfor says a secret deal...

Purportedly for political effect ("keep things quiet")

http://www.stratfor.com/corporate/index.neo?page=center&storyId=232242

[Disturbed]

67. Mutilation

I wonder what the legal penalty is for mutilating corpses and hanging them on a bridge?

[NNN0LHI]

75. They were fucking mercenaries. They kill people for money n/t