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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 07:47 AM
Original message
Sarin gas verified
Heard this on local news-only source I can find on it.
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/05/26/473194.html

Wed, May 26, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Comprehensive testing has confirmed the presence of the chemical weapon sarin in the remains of a roadside bomb discovered May 15 in Baghdad. The determination, made by a laboratory in the U.S., verifies what earlier tests had found: the bomb was made from an artillery shell designed to disperse the deadly nerve agent on the battlefield. The origin of the shell remains unclear, and finding that out is a priority for the U.S. military, an anonymous official said.
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cspiguy Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Saddam Lied, People Died... (Eyes Rolled)
one chemical weapon versus 87 billion dollars worth of death raining down on the iraqis. Real good sense of balance. :eyes:
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Only 29,999 munitions left to find
http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-wfsection+article+articleid-238.html

Second, as with biological weapons, Saddam Hussein has never accounted for vast amounts of chemical weaponry: 550 artillery shells with mustard, 30,000 empty munitions and enough precursors to increase his stockpile to as much as 500 tons of chemical agents.
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74dodgedart Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. OK--- can we leave now ??
I feel safer already..
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cspiguy Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. you forgot the /sarcasm
n/t
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. Show me stockpiles of chemical weapons, recent production of
chemical and biological weapons, and a viable nuclear program.

Then we'll talk. As Dennis Kucinich said on MTP Sunday, while holding a pic of the shell: "We went to war over this?!".
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Russert was really dismissive of DK wasn't he?
Early in the segment DK made the obvious points of how misguided, contrived, and unplanned the whole war was/is (my words not his) and Russert looks at the ever respectable Duncan Hunter (R-Ca.) and said something like, "Do you want to respond to what HE said?"

I've never seen Russert not refer to someone by their name and title even former.......

I'm not a huge DK fan (I do respect him for saying what needs to be said) in terms of the Dem primaries but that was disrespectful.
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. "The determination, made by a laboratory in the U.S." - oh well !!!
.
.
.

The United States did the testing . .

nothing here,

moving along . . .

:eyes:
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Not even on Foxnews.com-the terror alert is the main story
http://www.foxnews.com/

No mention what so ever. Hmm maybe they put it out but don't want a lot of attention paid to it as maybe it isn't what they want to hang their hat on. Then again they just might have out boogiemanned themselves.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. LMAO. A mortar round. That's their WMD. Psychos. (nt)
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. Shell dated to pre GW1-US supplied
And who decided that this shell needed testing?

And what happened to the 2 soldiers being treated
for "Sarin inhalation"?

And Berg suddenly disappeared from the USMedia , huh?

That particular snippet then made it into the final
composite video, possibly as part of a message to those
who might question the wisdom of King Bush. Berg may
not have been intentionally killed, but his dead body,
together with a pre-existing interrogation videotape, made
an excellent video distraction from the stories of torture
and murder, and has even been used to argue that
continued discussion of the torture issue is unpatriotic as it
puts the lives of Americans in Iraq at risk. The
American knuckledraggers see the video as confirmation
that the 'sand niggers' are subhuman, thus confirming
the righteousness of murdering them in large quantities. It
has been an extremely useful piece of propaganda, and
is almost certainly a fabrication of the Pentagon or the CIA.
-xymphora

And 5 Roads to Hell Speech didn't work out so...
Watch out for that Terrorist Bomb! There're Here!

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Papa Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
10. Read this commentary by Scott Ritter. Weprobably already know the origin
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0521/p09s01-coop.html


"What makes this relevant now is the ongoing speculation about the source of the sarin chemical artillery shell that the US military found rigged as an improvised explosive device (IED) last week in Baghdad. If the 155-mm shell was a "dud" fired long ago - which is highly likely - then it would not be evidence of the secret stockpile of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that the Bush administration used as justification to invade Iraq.As a United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998, I know that the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), the US-led unit now responsible for investigating WMD in Iraq, could quite easily determine whether this shell had been fired long ago or not. Given the trouble the administration has had in documenting its past allegations about WMD, releasing the news of last week's sarin shell without the key information about the state of the shell itself seems disingenuous".

and.....

"Given what's known about sarin shells, the US could be expected to offer a careful recital of the data with news of the shell. But facts that should have accompanied the story - the type of shell, its condition, whether it had been fired previously, and the age and viability of the sarin and precursor chemicals - were absent. And that's opened the door to irresponsible speculation that the shell was part of a live WMD stockpile. The data - available to the ISG - would put this development in proper perspective - allowing responsible discussion of the event and its possible ramifications."

The Bush administration is just trying to milk this story and muddy the waters.





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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Great Post!
Kick!
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. Operative Phrase: NEW Bomb Made from OLD Shell
Edited on Wed May-26-04 09:34 AM by UTUSN
" .... made from an artillery shell designed to disperse the deadly nerve agent on the battlefield ...."


Other cable have said that this does not qualify as WMD because WMD are not on the battlefield, but rather aimed at masses of civilian population. Besides this, the shell has been said to date back to 1991, and if it was "designed to disperse" whatever, and probably HAD that crap in it AT SOME POINT, HOW MUCH of this sarin was NOW present?------traces? And what happened to the NEW bomb makers, exposed to sarin?

But, of course, HANNITY went WILD with self-importance announcing that the tests had CONFIRMED blah blah.
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Hard to believe even one shell was unaccounted for.
The US did such a fine job destroying it's chemical stockpiles, after all.
--------------------------------
November 21, 2000

Mr. Charles Scharmann
Office of the Program Manager
AMXRM-PM, Bldg. 111
Commerce City, Colorado 80022-1748

Dear Mr. Scharmann:

With the recent discovery of several additional bomblets at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal (RMA), the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is concerned about the health and safety of on-site workers, visitors, and nearby residents. While one such bomblet in a non-suspected area could be considered an anomaly; discovery of several more of these bomblets causes us to reconsider as to how much is really known about the disposal and destruction practices for these chemical munitions, and how many more are waiting to be found.

The military is the expert in addressing munitions and is the lead agency when remediating a Federal Facility site such as RMA. Current safety procedures for onsite workers and visitor tours have been based upon an understanding that the Army has always had a ‘healthy respect' for chemical weapons and had carefully managed all aspects of their handling from production through final disposition. However, recent statements made by the Army reflect an escalating concern related to finding additional bomblets. "At no time during this discovery and subsequent evaluation was employee, visitor, or neighborhood safety jeopardized <10/26/00>;" "National and local munitions and explosive experts have advised us that this bomblet is unstable and therefore, unsafe. Prolonging the decision to destroy this bomblet increases the risk to human life and heightens community fears in an already stressful situation <10/27/00>;" and "While discoveries like this bomblet are rare, there is the potential for more devices to be found <11/1/00>."

Relatively little information regarding Sarin munitions is discussed in the 1996 On Post Record of Decision. Section 2.1 states:

From 1950 to 1952, the Army designed and constructed the North Plants complex in Section 25 to manufacture the nerve agent GB, also called Sarin. GB was manufactured in the North Plants from 1953 to 1957, the major site for the free world's production of GB during this period. GB munitions were demilitarized in the early 1970s. One-ton containers of bulk GB, bulk VX agent, GB-filled bomb clusters, and GB-filled Weteye bombs were stored in toxic storage yards in Sections 5, 6, and 31.

The GB munitions which most likely were destroyed are those known to be stored in the toxic storage yards. EPA does not know what methods or equipment may have been used to identify munitions, such as bomblets, which had strayed from their appointed destination. Even if such a search had been conducted, it is likely to have used Schonstedt magnetometers mounted on a platform which does not have the same degree of accuracy as more recent technologies. The Army has stated that removal of metal found on the surface of Basin A after it was drained is the source of the bomblets discovered to date. Presumably, an UXO observer would have been present, as is currently required during remedial activities, and would have taken appropriate actions if UXO had been observed. It is unclear if a thorough assessment of potential UXO along the transportation routes between North Plants, Basin A, or the scrap metal yard was ever conducted. The ROD has identified small portions of section 5, 6, 19, 20, 25, 29, 30, and 32 as potential UXO (unexploded ordnance) or agent (Sarin/Mustard) areas based upon historic records. The scrap metal yard where the bomblets were found was never designated in the ROD as an UXO area and is located in an area with a high amount of traffic associated with remediation of the site.

While state-of-the-art in its day, the Schonstedt magnetometer has been evaluated to be no more than 40 percent effective at identifying munitions in the field and is most reliable in the first 1-2 feet below ground surface. This is especially disconcerting because much of RMA will be transferred to new owners. Since the time of the Schonstedt, more reliable technologies have been developed such as MTADS (Multi-Towed Array Detector System). A comparison of the Schonstedt magnetometer against the Multi-Towed Array Detector System (MTADS) technologies was conducted about a year ago at Badlands Bombing Range confirming the difference in detection capabilities between these two technologies. It would seem prudent to evaluate if munitions exist in the upper four feet of soil since Colorado's freeze-thaw cycles can push buried munitions/UXO at that depth to the surface. In areas where excavation is to occur, the evaluation must be as definitive as possible. MTADS uses several different technologies including a magnetometer, gradiometer, and electromagnetic sensors to detect anomalies. In addition to being a more effective tool for identifying munitions, an MTADS search can be performed relatively quickly and is cost-effective, ranging from $500 to $800 per acre. Although we are not wedded to using MTADS, we believe that in order to adequately address new concerns resulting from the discovery of the bomblets, the Army needs to consider reassessing parts of the site for UXO using the best available technology.

EPA credits the Army for quickly securing the first bomblet once it was discovered to contain sarin. Its placement in a protective steel canister within a Kevlar tent structure all within a tuff shed to limit the extent of exposure from a potential self-detonation has greatly reduced concerns regarding potential exposure of on-site personnel. Cancellation of visitor tours has eliminated concerns about potentially exposing this group of community members to an unnecessary risk. It is EPA's understanding that similar precautions are being put into place for the most recent bomblet finds. While EPA remains concerned about the potential risk presented by these bomblets and wishes to see an appropriate disposal resolution reached as quickly as possible, EPA is just as concerned about additional bomblets which have not yet been found and for which no protective measures have been taken. To continue remedial activities without a comprehensive reevaluation of UXO would seem to diminish the seriousness of this matter. To contemplate resuming the visitor tours, as described in the Remediation Venture Office's fact sheet, and on-site public meetings without first fully characterizing the location and extent of UXO, as well as taking appropriate precautionary measures, would potentially place members of the community in an imminently hazardous situation.

The Army's statements of their concern about the discovery of the bomblets; a lack of procedures to protect workers and on-site visitors if random chemical weapons or other UXO is found; the Army's incomplete assessment at sufficient depths or areas to determine there is not a potential chemical weapon or other UXO problem; and the potential risk from the unintended detonation of even one undiscovered bomblet requires the Parties to address this matter immediately and carefully. For these reasons, EPA recommends that all remediation activities be substantially modified or suspended until an UXO Interim Response Action (IRA) or other plan of action is completed. EPA expects that implementation of this recommendation will be coordinated with CDPHE and will be consistent with the requirements of their order. The IRA/Plan of Action should specifically evaluate the presence of munitions/UXO using the best technology available, such as MTADS, in 1) all areas for which excavation for any purpose is anticipated, 2) any property which is envisioned to be transferred to another property owner/manager, and 3) all locations in and around where munitions were handled or disposed. The IRA/Plan of Action should also include an approved disposal method for any and all munitions/UXO which are found. EPA expects that special consideration will be given for using the Explosive Destruction System (EDS) which has been demonstrated to be effective for mustard-filled munitions and which EPA understands has recently been tested with Sarin. The conduct of an UXO IRA/Plan of Action must ensure that no one, including onsite workers, visitors, and nearby community residents, are unnecessarily endangered (or potentially endangered as defined by CERCLA) by the presence of UXO.

Clearly, a comprehensive arsenal-wide assessment and response is needed. I would recommend that a meeting to discuss the development and implementation of a UXO IRA/Plan of Action be scheduled as soon as possible. While I consider this to be a Council-level topic of discussion, I recommend that the Remediation Venture Office and all regulatory parties provide technical staff at the meeting in order to expedite development of the UXO IRA/Plan of Action. Please coordinate scheduling of this meeting with Ms. Laura Williams, Team Leader for the RMA project. Her telephone number is (303) 312-6660.

Sincerely,

/signed/
Max H. Dodson
Assistant Regional Administrator
Office of Ecosystems Protection and Remediation

http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/sites/rma/rmasarinblt.html
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. The accountability issue has always perplexed me
Not just whether Saddam himself knew exactly what he had or if there was any kind of inventory system (probably not*) in the Iraqi military.

*We know that Iraqi commanders repeatedly got money for systems that they never produced and that Saddam was the target of several ruses and shams when it came to Nuclear programs ("red Mercury" which doesn't exist).

The "we know what they had and we know what we destroyed (apparently not) so where is the rest?" argument makes a huge leap at the beginning. How do we know what they had? The oft cited joke is "they have the receipts" but seriously if there was no inventory system where did the first number ( X -X =X )come from?
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. Wake me when they attribute this news to a real person
The usual garbage, no identifiable attribution. Also, I want to know where and when the shell was made, how old the gas was, etc. A decent chemistry lab ought to be able to determine these things.

"an anonymous official said", "a laboratory in the U.S."
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