Lech Walesa: Germany and France Share Blame for Iraq War

[kskiska]

The former Polish president and Nobel Peace Prize winner says Germany and France are partially to blame for the Iraq war, because they failed to convince other EU members of their case against invasion.

In an interview with German public broadcasters ARD and Deutsche Welle, Lech Walesa said he would not have sent Polish troops to Iraq if he were still president. The former leader also pointed his finger at the two bigger EU members, France and Germany, blaming them for failing to prevent the Iraq war.

"If I had still been president of Poland at the time, I would not have sent troops to Iraq," Walesa said. "I would have met with the heads of government from Germany and France and worked for a common European position. It's not the United States that is to blame for the war, but rather the EU, and in particular Germany and France. They knew the war was coming and they failed to prevent it."

more…
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,,1433_A_1217538_1_A,00.html

[ithacan]

1. ummm, what about Bush????

Seems like Lech is leaving out a huge part of the story...

[Goldmund]

2. That makes no sense whatsoever.

[fizzana]

3. And I blame Poland for WWII because they failed to stop

Germany from invading.

[TankLV]

38. You said it perfectly.

What an idiotic remark from a remarkable statesman.

Some days, it's just best to go back to bed and wair for a new day.

[Sirveri]

4. Right

And it's societies fault because we didn't prevent someone from molesting a child. Nothing to do with the child molester at all.

[damnraddem]

21. Hey, officer, don't give me that ticket! YOU should get it.

After all, you didn't stop me from parking in front of this fire plug.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Hey Lech. Eat some shit n/t

[gratuitous]

6. gratuitous: Lech Walesa's head has spun around 360°

This is spin like you can't believe!

Yeah, the people that were against the war are now responsible for it's fucked up prosecution. Waaaah! You never told us how screwed up things could get. Or if you did, you didn't force us to listen! It's all your fault! Waaaah!

[keithyboy]

33. This is the man whose ass Reagan kissed for union rights and then

proceeded to ban one of the biggest unions in the US, Air Comptrollers.
Now Lech is just about against all unions. If you want to defeat your enemyies just make them rich.

[JVS]

42. 100% consistent: Stooge of the West!

[kimchi]

7. It's not the United States that is to blame for the war-right about that.

Bush is to blame.

I'd say 10 million people did try to prevent it; and no one would listen to us.

[HuckleB]

8. So all of us who protested, spoke out, wrote letters against the war...

are to blame because we failed to convince the administration of our case against invasion?

Sheesh.

[jobycom]

12. Do you feel blameless?

I don't. I tried to stop it, but failed. But I benefit from it. I drive my little Prius, which gets great mileage but still burns gas. I buy food, electricity, other goods that require oil to get to me. I live in this society and pay taxes to support the troops financially. I benefit from this war, even though I despise it.

I don't feel blameless. I'm ashamed of myself and of the nation for this invasion and occupation. I don't feel the type of guilt that those who supported the war should feel, but I feel as responsible as them.

[funnymanpants]

26. Me too. I feel guilty for sleeping and breathing.

Not.

C'mon. No wonder we can't get people to join our rallies when people are walking around with a saint's complex.

[jobycom]

29. Your perogative, I guess

It's not a saint's complex. It's refusing to have an ostrich complex.

[funnymanpants]

31. What?

I don't think an ostrich can have a comple--then again I'm not an animal psychologist.

You feel guilty for buying food? Good grief! And I would like to ask you how anyone besides Halliburton has benefited from the war.

[Zhade]

61. Well then, what's YOUR solution?

Using your logic, the best way to not be complicit would be to not exist.

Okay, guys and gals, time to drive into the garage and close the door behind ya!

</sarcasm>

I mean, Jesus. Yes, we share .0001% of the blame, but by GOD, let's not ignore our own devious hand at work in all this!

:eyes:

[damnraddem]

22. So that's why I feel so GUILTY!

Yes, it's all my fault -- because I didn't stop the Invasion.

[neuvocat]

40. Its the whole world's fault then.

Those worldwide protests failed to convince anyone that going to war in Iraq is the wrong thing to do.

[JVS]

43. Actually I believe I've heard something akin to that here on DU

[jobycom]

9. LOL I love it! He's brilliant!

He's not saying Bush isn't responsible, he's saying Germany and France should have tried harder. He's sort of implying that maybe they didn't really want to try harder, or else that they were too afraid to stand up to Bush. He's taking them to task for letting down their end. It's a good point.

But the better point is the one implied about Bush. Bush isn't to blame, because he just did what he was expected to do. Sort of, you can't expect a pig to show manners. It wasn't our job to stand up for peace, because we are who we are. It was up to the civilized Europeans to put us in our place.

[aquart]

15. Is Poland part of the coalition?

[jobycom]

16. Lech Walesa isn't president in Poland, no more than Carter is here.

[struggle4progress]

25. Yep. A few months ago ...

they were talking about bringing their soldiers home. Bush yanked their chain real hard and they shut up.

[pschoeb]

30. He is not brilliant, he is an egotistical hypocrite

He supported the war, and wanted the UN to support it. See my post #28 for details. He is now hopeing no one will remeber, and he can get himself in the news and come off with some antiwar person, maybe especially in Poland where now support for the war is extremely low. He probably being a stooge for the President in 2003, was probably not a good idea, and now wants to "moderate" that position.

[UpInArms]

10. really!

Those "cheese eating surrender monkeys" and "chocolate makers" are just as guilty as those 14 million "focus group" members!

[daleo]

11. Walesa must have got a call from the neo-cons

U.S. is not to blame, but France and Germany are? The neo-cons must have called in some chits. Remember "Let Poland be Poland", Lech? It's time for "Let Iraq be Iraq".

Oh, well. Reagan and Heston have Alzheimer's so maybe Lech is going that way too.

[peterh]

13. Lech…get a grip….

It was going to happen and no one, short of Congress getting a clue, was going to stop it….even Perle admitted it was on in Nov. `02


http://www.rense.com/general32/inspt.htm

admitted the US would attack Iraq even if UN inspectors fail to find weapons. Nov `02

[BonjourUSA]

14. I prescribe : absolute rest

[russian33]

18. I prescribe: Pound Salt!

That statement made no sense...France and Germany? yeah, OK buddy!

[Kellanved]

17. oh the nerve

A former Polish President might have been able to keep Poland outside the coalition, but for my knowledge he remained silent at the time.

As to preventing the war: the US media might have been able to prevent it (using the arguments presented by the nations blamed above) , but they had better things to do at the time... :grr:



I remember the world's media crying "Anti American" when Schröder said that the war is coming. Although Schröder was proven correct, the myth of his Anti-American campaign is still around.

Another excelent opportunity to remain silent missed.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. Lech's been eating a little too much polish sausage because...

...he's seeing links where none exist.

[Zhade]

62. Best comment on this thread!

You win the DU Polish Sausage Analogy Award.

Smile for the camera!

:evilgrin:

[damnraddem]

20. And I want to blame Poland for WWII, ...

for not preventing Germany from invading other countries, including Poland. I also blame China for not stopping Japan from invading other countries. Well, I guess I'll also have to blame Ethiopia for not stopping Italy.

Hey, now I've really got the swing of this thing.

[Tellurian]

23. Bush must have sent Lech a "huge" B-day present! $$$$$$$$ n/t

[truthisfreedom]

24. wait... maybe that's just his way of saying WWII is our fault...

huh?

[dansolo]

27. How could Germany and France have prevented the war?

The only way that they could have stopped the war was to force a second UN resolution, and having the vote fail. This would have eliminated any alleged legitimacy to the invasion. The problem was that the US and the UK backed away from a second resolution when it was obvious that the Security Council wouldn't have passed it. I will agree on one point--France could have forced a vote on the second UN resolution.

[pschoeb]

28. I blame Lech Walesa for Iraq war!!!

What a piece of hypocritical shit, Lech supported the war and wanted the UN to support it. Fuck off Lech

March 12, 2003

WARSAW, Poland(AP) - Former Polish President Lech Walesa, the winner of the 1983 Nobel Peace Prize, on Wednesday urged the U.N. Security Council to back a U.S.-led war on Iraq (news - web sites) and criticized the United Nations (news - web sites)' "ineffectiveness" so far.


WARSAW, March 12 (AFP) - Lech Walesa, a former Polish
president and ex leader of the legendary Solidarity
trade union, urged the international community on
Wednesday to line up behind the United States in its
hardline stance on Iraq.

"The United States is the only country having a rapid
reaction force at its disposal and which wants to use
it to resolve the Iraq crisis," Walesa said in an open
letter received by AFP.

"Given the impotence of the United Nations, the
international community should authorise the United
States and its allies to represent it to take the
measures which are indispensable," Walesa, a Nobel

Peace Prize winner, said in the letter.
"We have to use the American military potential with
the backing of the UN Security Council," he added.
He said that if that did not happen "we will see new
misunderstandings spring up and mutual accusations,
which will only have the effect of weakening
cooperation between democratic countries.
He was referring to divisions over Iraq between
European countries on Iraq.
Poland has sided with Britain in firmly backing the
hardline US stance in the Iraqi conflict, unlike
France, Germany and Belgium which are opposed to
military action.

Since his defeat to current president Aleksander
Kwasniewski in 1995 Walesa has remained outside
politics.

[funnymanpants]

32. Thanks!

If you're feeling stupid, Welesa, my suggestion to you is to keep your trap shut rather than make yourself look more stupid.

[oblivious]

45. Great catch, pschoeb. Thanks! Here's another important link. Thieves!

Poland seeks Iraqi oil stake

Poland, which has sent troops to support the US-led forces in Iraq, has acknowledged its "ultimate objective" is to acquire supplies of Iraqi oil.

The Polish Foreign Minister, Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz, said his country had never disguised the fact that it sought direct access to the oilfields.

..."We have never hidden our desire for Polish oil companies to finally have access to sources of commodities," Mr Cimoszewicz told the Polish PAP news agency.

...Access to the oilfields "is our ultimate objective," he added.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3043330.stm

Published: 2003/07/03 21:47:09 GMT

[Zhade]

63. Sounds like he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize...

...just as much as that murderous traitor Kissinger.

What a fucking world we live in.

[Rochambeau]

34. Do not forget that France is also

against any religion reference in the future EU constitution while Poland is in favour and of course Walesa himself is wearing every day a badge showing the Black Virgin. France really doesn't share many views with Walesa now... "Old Europe" said Ronald Dumbsfeld..........Wich one ?

[rooboy]

35. Lech Walesa and Poland are NEW Europe.

It was up to NEW Europe to stop the war because they're the ones who had Rumsfeld's ear.

[Rochambeau]

37. You may be right, I always confuse NEW with MODERN or PROGRESSIVE

and OLD with OLD...This is why I am progressive. I have faith in human progress.

[lumpy]

36. How many poles does it

ta...never mind...

[deminflorida]

53. Right better never mind.....

my wife is Polish....they've stuck by us thru thick and thin...Bush and Co. have lied to them about the visa waiver pilot program....

Period....check the facts, unless your a FREEPER and don't care too.

Jokes like that make you no part of my party, I'm sure many here would agree.

Chris....

By the way....Bring IT ON......

[Voltaire99]

39. As an opponent of war myself...

...I feel completely vindicated. Everything I warned against, everything I and others on the left foresaw, has come to pass. The right wing and their centrist allies in this war can hang their heads in shame. Particularly the center: nice one, you unprincipled saps.

Yes, our public arguments and demonstrations went unheeded.

Was that our fault? Heh: please, brutha! To paraphrase something Disraeli once said, I am only bound to furnish my debating opponents with problems--not the answers to them.

So Lech can fuck himself; it's been ages since he played with a full deck.

[Zhade]

64. Same here.

And I'm sick to be proven right - AGAIN.

[JVS]

41. Sorry, Poland chose to get in and it's their own damn fault

Being an independent country includes responsibilities like that. If Polish politicians and statesmen cannot accept responsibility of independence then other arrangements can be made.

[Matilda]

44. It's just as well as he's no longer President

if that's the way his mind is working.

Getting a bit too old now, losing the plot entirely.

[Emillereid]

46. What a crock!!!

"They neglected to bring together the old and new EU member states," he added. "Such an important organization as the European Union should have spoken out with one voice against the war. If that had been the case, the United States could not have ignored it.

Wanna bet Lech -- Bush wouldn't have even flinched in ignoring it!

edited to get bold thingie working right

[DivinBreuvage]

47. Bad history from hysterical people on this thread

Those of you who are trying to use the example of Poland in World War II have botched the analogy. The correct lesson from that example supports Lech Walesa. England and France SHARE THE BLAME for World War II because they did not have the nerve to put the smack down on Hitler when he marched into the Rhineland, when he raped Czechoslovakia, or when he invaded Poland. A Franco-British invasion of Germany during any of those crisis moments would have knocked Hitler off his throne right quick.

Similarly, France and Germany SHARE THE BLAME for Iraq because when it came time to put their money where their mouth was they backed down. Is Bush the primary culprit? Of course he is. France and Germany didn't cause the crime, but they could have done more to stop it and didn't.

[daleo]

48. So, you are saying they should have invaded the United States?

To prevent the invasion of Iraq. That is the only conclusion that seems to logically follow from what you have written. If so, I think it would have only made matters worse for the world, as laudable as it might have been in intent.

[DivinBreuvage]

54. No, and I don't think you're trying very hard when you say

that "that is the only conclusion that seems to logically follow". If Germany and France were really serious about it they might have tried getting Hussein to allow them to put troops on the ground in Iraq before the shooting started and make an attack on their troops tantamount to a declaration of war. The reason the Hitlers of the world keep getting away with what they do is that no one ever has the nerve to call their bluff early in the game. So now France and Germany may get to stand around being all innocent and lamblike while Syria and Iran come under the gun too.

[daleo]

56. Had France and Germany put troops in Iraq it would have been equivalent

to declaring war on the U.S., had the U.S. then attacked Iraq and their troops. It would have required the cooperation of the Hussein government, though, which was rather unlikely at that point, I think.

It certainly would have been a courageous move, but I can't see it being anything but a bluff. Had a shooting war developed that included French/German troops against U.S./U.K. troops, I would not have put it past Bush and/or Blair to have gone nuclear against France's nuclear weaponry, in order to neutralize it. Who knows if the Russians, Chinese, or Israelis would have become involved at that point. It just would have been too great a risk, in my opinion, to the peace and safety of the entire world.

During the 1930's Britain and France may well have been able to nip Hitler's ambitions in the bud, although I don't know if that is certain or not. In this case, I doubt that the combined strength of France and Germany would have stood a chance against the combined strength of the U.S. and Britain. The PNAC doctrine is not exactly friendly to Europe's interests, so I don't know if Bush would have held back.

So, although I understand your reasoning in principle, I just don't think it would have been wise at this time. Unfortunately a showdown along these lines may eventually transpire, if Bush and other believers in global domination are not voted out (and kept out) by the U.S. population.

[TankLV]

49. You are free to be delusional.

Damn women, didn't stop the rapist enough. It's all HER fault!

And WE'RE "hysterical" for trying to stop this goddam fuck from happening, so WE'RE to blame!

Damn, why of course! (NOT!)

And you are how old, and you've had alzheimer's for how long?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste on such idiots.

Sometimes it's best to not open your mouth and prove to the world you're total lack of any sense or intelligence.

Just a helpful suggestion, bucko.

[DivinBreuvage]

52. Again, a bad analogy. Do you people even bother to think these through?

You are incorrectly transposing France and Germany with Iraq. In your analogy, if properly done, Iraq is the rape victim. Germany and France are the bystanders who issue a few high-sounding, hand-wringing remarks of disapproval while the rapist is stalking his victim, but who then turn away and stop their ears when he grabs her.

In such a case I think the bystanders DO share some of the blame, even though of course they aren't directly culpable of the crime. Perhaps you believe they're innocent and shouldn't be expected to intervene. If so, then we'll agree to disagree.

By the way, nice trick introducing the outrageous emotional example of blaming rape victims in an attempt to derail logical discussion by getting people all worked up with visceral reaction.

[DivinBreuvage]

55. A helpful suggestion indeed. Perhaps a high-school English teacher

could teach you how to write legitimate analogies. And also the difference between "you're" and "your".

[Matilda]

51. What more could France and Germany have done?

Their views were made plain in the U.N., and they refused to support
the mandate sought by Bush to invade, thereby rendering any such
invasion illegal.

Perhaps they could have toured Europe, as Blair did, trying to make
their views known, but quite honestly, those countries that did
support the U.S. were all doing so because they wanted something
in return. Doubtless that was the view of Poland at the time - they
needed aid, and were being pragmatic. Not likely that anything
or anyone could have changed their attitude, given that it isn't
likely that anyone really believed in the reasons Bush gave for
war, but chose to go along or not according to their best interests
at the time.

Poland made a bad call.

[dansolo]

60. France and Germany could have submitted a second resolution

Either France or Germany, as members of the Security Council, could have forced a vote on a second resolution on Iraq. A second Iraq resolution, which wouldn't have passed, would have prevented the U.S. from arguing that the U.N. resolution 1441 authorized them to take whatever action they chose.

[JVS]

65. I blame the French and British for making a commitment to Poland that...

they obviously were not capable of keeping. Britain and France should have let Poland slide and built up strength so that they could have confronted or contained the Germans in a manner far less disasterous than what they did. They declared a war that they were unable to fight properly, lost almost all of Europe in that war and Britain only survived because the Germans made the collosally stupid move of invading Russia, which had been building up for the war. France and Britain should have built up their forces too rather than just going off half cocked.

[agincourt]

50. I do not agree,

Bush-Cheney would be fat-headed enough to invade Iraq with not a single allie in tow. Pressure from Germany and France would not have stopped this thing. Legitimate mid-term elections might have stopped this thing, maybe.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

57. While he is right that the EU needs to form a common policy....

what Lech has failed to understand is that the Neo-Cons were HELL BENT on attacking Iraq. Had all of Europe and China and Japan stood firm against Bush, he still would have gone to Iraq.

He really should get all his information together before trying to make the argument.

:eyes:

[Dirk39]

58. Hello from Germany,

is this the guy, who received millions from the mafia and the CIA and the Gladio-Network to "liberate" the polish workers and fight for higher wages esp. for the Lenin-shipyard...

And now, after he did suceed, the workers in Poland earn less than ever before and the Lenin-shipyard doesn't exist anymore...

But this hardcore anticommunist-dissident is pro-life, I guess.

Marry Havel and leave me alone,
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[burrowowl]

59. Lech is a

brown-noser to the U$ and always has been.

[John_H]

66. Lech Walesa: "Give us American Dollars please." n/t