Iraqi: U.S. Soldiers Laughed at Drowning

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_death_on_the_tigris&cid=540&ncid=1480

SAMARRA, Iraq - The 19-year-old Iraqi's swimming skills were no match for the Tigris. "Marwan, save me!" Zaidoun Fadel Hassoun screamed to his cousin, himself struggling to stay afloat. The teenager drowned; his cousin made it to shore. "I could hear them laughing," Marwan Fadel Hassoun said, recalling how U.S. soldiers pushed the young men into the river. "They were behaving like they were watching a comedy on stage."


The U.S. military said last week that three soldiers, now back in their base at Fort Carson, Colo., have been charged with involuntary manslaughter in the Jan. 3 drowning of an Iraqi detainee. A fourth soldier faces charges of pushing a second man, who survived, into the same river.


The military identified the victims only as Mr. Fadel and Mr. Fadhil. The four soldiers face between 5 1/2 years and 26 1/2 years in prison if convicted on all charges.


Thousands of Iraqi civilians have died since the Iraq (news - web sites) war began in March 2003. Some of them perished in the U.S.-led air and ground campaign. In the 15 months since the fall of Baghdad, many more have died in car bombings, or when caught in the crossfire as American troops battled insurgents or were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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[LiberalVoice]

1. "involuntary manslaughter"?

How about Second Degree Murder and, attempted murder.

[mom cat]

Right! What is involuntary about pushing someone to their death?

[riverwalker]

2. more details covered in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x668616

[opihimoimoi]

3. This is the Bush Effect. The Arrogance is Contagious.....

[qazplm]

4. Am I out of line for

witholding judgment til these soldiers have their day in court?

I mean it may be the defense attorney in me, but I am loathe to automatically take the Iraqi story as the gospel truth...it MAY be the truth, but then again, I think innocent til proven guilty is always a good guide.

[jobycom]

8. No, but also remember

that the Iraqis are in a position of subjugation to the well armed American soldiers, and that the soldiers are there to "protect" the Iraqis. The Iraqis have no way to defend themselves against soldiers with the power of life and death over them, almost on a whim. The Iraqi men couldn't fight back or even resist, without a reasonable assumption that they would be killed for doing so.

I'll withhold judgement, but my judgement will be more harsh towards them if they are guilty than it would be to a couple of gangs fighting it out.

[jobycom]

10. And to carry my other post further

Even if there is a justification on a personal level, there is still no excuse for us being in a situation where our soldiers are in a position to carry out such a deed, justified or not. So it is still an indictment of our whole invasion and occupation that civilians who would otherwise be alive keep getting killed by our troops. So either we have a few bad apples, or we have a bad system, but either way we have no justification as a nation.

[DulceDecorum]

14. Were those two Iraqi men

presumed innocent until proven guilty?
What were the charges?
Was Tigris the judge in a trial by water?

Those soldiers inflicted the death penalty upon that kid.
Turn about is fair play.

I have not forgotten what their brothers-in-arms did in Somalia.

The attack on Mogadishu was particularly vicious. Quoting Bowden: "The Task Force Ranger commander, Maj. Gen. William F. Garrison, testifying before the Senate, said that if his men had put any more ammunition into the city 'we would have sunk it.' Most soldiers interviewed said that through most of the fight they fired on crowds and eventually at anyone and anything they saw."
http://www.rense.com/general18/blackhawk.htm

On its first mission, the force inadvertently arrested nine Somalian United Nations employees. A later mission arrested a friendly Somalian general who was being groomed by the United Nations to take over a Mogadishu police force. But by late September, the task force had begun to hit its stride with the capture of Osman Atto, Aidid's banker. The deadly Oct. 3 raid was the sixth and last.
Most of the Rangers who fought were only a few years out of high school. These young men were shocked to find themselves bleeding on the dirt streets of an obscure African capital for a cause so unessential that President Clinton called off their mission the day after the fight.
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/rang16.asp

Bring 'em home.
John Stebbins could use a few cellmates.

[qazplm]

16. I dont know

because I wasnt there, and neither were you.

I am not going to assume EITHER SIDE is telling the truth, but what I will do is assume these soldiers are innocent til proven guilty, especially until I can get more information on what happened besides the statements of one side of the incident.

If it turns out the soldiers are guilty, no one will be more harsh towards them then I...til then, I will wait to hear the whole set of evidence.

[merh]

20. These were detainees. (n/t)

[greblc]

5. Unfortunatly I'm not suprised.

The military is another world. Insanity like this happens more often than we'll ever know!

But Nuns don't shoot as well as Soldiers.

[Chicago Democrat]

6. It will be so hilarious when the army slaps them on the wrist for it.

Might even fine them $100. No... Iraqi innocent lives are much cheaper to them.

[qazplm]

7. you are quite wrong on that one

the military justice system is actually better than the civilian justice system, and I say that as an army defense attorney.

[jobycom]

9. From the outside

it looks like the definitions of murder, assualt and other violent crimes are a lot less stringent than they would be outside the military. If this were a gang of inner city youths pushing a couple of well-dressed businessmen into a river and laughing while one died, they would already be convicted by the media and would be facing at least the threat of capital punishment.

[qazplm]

12. well thats the fault of the media, not the army

what the army does is this...

its less experienced lawyers start off as prosecutors.

generally, the more experienced lawyers become defense attorneys.

Plus the defense generally has the advantage of having the same resources as the government.

So what ends up happening is that the system much more closely follows the spirit of innocent til proven guilty then the civilian courts.

However, make no mistake, the prosecutors assigned will do their best to get a conviction, these are generally qualified, especially on a case like this, and talented attorneys, but my thoughts are, especially knowing all of the defense attorneys at Fort Carson, is that the defense counsel(s) will have some success on the behalf of these soldiers...that doesnt mean the army is "slapping them on the wrist".

And again I caution that we maintain the spirit of innocent til proven guilty, there is nothing more liberal than that mindset IMO.

[jobycom]

13. I'm not into scapegoating

But innocent people shouldn't wind up drowning by being pushed into a river by armed men they can't fight. No one could try to save the man?

Something is wrong. If these soldiers are innocent, then the military is to blame.

[qazplm]

18. well that's assuming that is what happened

maybe it IS what happened, maybe the Iraqi's are telling the entire truth.

However, I for one am of the opinion that you would probably do better to have a suspicious and sceptical attitude towards what both Iraqi's AND soldier's say at first glance.

Odds are, one side or the other is lying.

[Chicago Democrat]

11. I will believe that when it happens

and that's no compliment to the civilian justice system. But thanks for the encouragement, it great to have you here.

[DulceDecorum]

15. Ummm

what do you know if civilian justice?

[qazplm]

17. I know its a system where

defense attorneys generally have little to no resources, especially when representing the poor...

its a system where often the courts are so crowded that moving cases along trumps justice, in a military court, a guilty plea trial will NOT take less than 2-3 hours minimum, while in civilian court, it can take all of 2-3 minutes.

its a system where the only check or balance is the discretion of the prosecutor, unlike the military system where actually roughly 2-3 different people minimum have to agree to pursue charges before it gets to trial...

I could go on but I think I can make a somewhat reasoned argument at least.

[bluestateguy]

19. Hopefully convicted before election day

It would surely mean 3 less votes for Bush!

[JSJ]

21. 'the troops' are BAD,BAD, BAD n/t

[Moderator]

22. Duplicate

Sorry I didn't catch it sooner...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x668616