Senator, Sobbing for Son, Pleas for Suicide Bill

[PfcHammer]

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=5624325§ion=news

Senator, Sobbing for Son, Pleas for Suicide Bill
Thu 8 July, 2004 23:02
By Joanne Kenen

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - For a few moments on Thursday, the only sounds in the U.S. Senate chamber were the sobs of a grieving father.

Oregon Republican Gordon Smith took the floor to introduce a youth suicide prevention bill named after his own dead son.

"He saw only despair ahead and felt only pain in his present. Pain and despair so potent that he sought suicide as a release. As a release," Smith said, recalling his son Garrett, who killed himself in his college apartment last September, one day before his 22nd birthday.

Smith recalled a "beautiful child, a handsome baby boy" that he and his wife Sharon adopted a few days after birth. He had vast intellectual gifts but struggled with learning disabilities, dyslexia, and bipolar disorder, sometimes called manic depression, Smith said.

[Dover]

1. I wonder if Senator Smith voted for sending our young boys to Iraq?

A lot of suicides as a result of that too. They are all our "beautiful" children...and hope for the future is in short supply.

[swag]

4. Why yes he did

He's one of the less revolting Republican Senators, but he did ignore my exhortation to stop Bush's march to war, and sent me an idiotic letter in reply.

I feel bad for his family and their lost son.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. So did Kerry.

Just sayin'

[swag]

18. Yes, that is highly regrettable for all of us.

I will vote for him anyway.

[Chicago Democrat]

40. Kerry made a mistake...Ya know it would really be great if he admitted it.

And blast Bush for lying, warmongering etc...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

60. He's blasting Chimp for lying...

..he's just not admitting his culpability. Edwards also has yet to repent. It'd make a difference, believe me.

[HarveyBriggs]

59. Kerry was duped. Whose side you on?

I get a little tired of the Nader/Bush/Cheney cabal line getting pedaled in this forum.

Harvey Briggs.

[dolo amber]

64. How much confidence

are we supposed to have in him if he was that easily duped? I'm nobody, and I knew it was a crock of shit...didn't you??

[primavera]

93. Don't sweat it, we'll all vote for him

.. but that doesn't mean that we all need to approve of everything he's done. Everyone here knew that the war on Iraq was bogus from the get go. Kerry had access to infinitely more information and had greater experience, it's inconceivable that he didn't know better. He wasn't duped into anyting, rather he was doing what politicians do: hedging. And I do think it's fair to observe that hedging, while understandable and forgivable, is not morally on par with the integrity of people like Senator Byrd who had the guts to call a crock of shit a crock of shit, despite what the newspapers and Fox News would say about him as a consequence.

Read Teddy Roosevelt:

"The President (or the candidate, as the case many be) is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
- President Theodore Roosevelt, 1912

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

106. Duped?

How is pointing out that Kerry voted for the war resolution pedaling the Nader/Bush/Cheney line? I was just trying to point out that, in this context, I don't think it's fair to criticize someone who lost his son to suicide just because he voted for the war resolution.

I don't know about you, but I lay blame for the war where it belongs: At the feet of George W. Bush.

[catzies]

15. You're a better person than he is, definitely. You have real values

more than I can say for him. I pity his loss, but if the shoe were on the other foot, would he pity mine?

[liberalhistorian]

38. No, I can

guaran-damn-tee you he wouldn't. In fact, he'd lecture you about how it was all your own fault and responsiblity, say your child/family member should have just picked himself up and shaken it off (like you can do that with mental illness, a physical, biochemical brain problem, anymore than you can just "shake off" diabetes or cancer or any other physical illness) and it's your problem and no one else's and why should other people who don't even know you care, etc., etc. Been there, done that with repukes. Unless it happens to them, of course, then THAT is a different story.

[HuckleB]

22. So you have a problem with this bill?

[devilgrrl]

43. No...

but would we be hearing about it had he not been effected by suicide? I tend to think not - whether repug or dem. :shrug:

[HuckleB]

54. Alas, that's the way the system, and life, often works.

At least something positive might come out of this for once.

[goddess40]

49. They based their votes on the lies that the bush admin told

Not that gets them out of the dog house, because a lowly citizen such as I saw through the lies as did the majority of the world population.
The majority of the blame for this mess rests on bush and his henchmen.

[Zhade]

63. Your post makes an interesting, if unintended, point.

How can we be angry with the Republicans who voted for the IWR, if we excuse the Dems who did so as being "duped" and lied to? Who's to say the Republicans weren't duped as well, if indeed anyone was duped (I and millions more around the world weren't, but nevermind that).

Isn't that the very definition of hypocrisy?

[LifeDuringWartime]

68. its possible that

many were eager to go to war, no matter what. which senators have ties to the defense industry?

[maxrandb]

105. They Voted for the WAR because at the time that is what the

American people wanted! Look, if the DEM's had come out in force against this war, especially since the Repukes manipulated the vote so that it occurred RIGHT BEFORE THE NOVEMBER MID-TERM ELECTIONS, then every cheneying cent of the money the pukes got from Kenny Boy and his ilk would have been spent on adds attacking the DEMs as weak on defense and national security.

Don't forget that this little war vote was brought out to help secure the repukes nefarious power through the mid-terms. We'd be lucky to have 30 seats in the Senate if the DEMs had fought * on this.

Sorry, but that is just a reality. At the time of this vote, 79% of Americans believed that Saddam and OBL were sleeping with each other. Nothing else the DEMs could do.

Better to live to fight another day.

[Catch22Dem]

2. That would be so hard to watch...

I really feel for the guy. A terrible thing to have to go through. I often wonder if the people who kill themselves think about the people they're leaving behind. I'm sure they do, or the wouldn't leave letters for their families. I don't know, I'm just rambling. Seems like such a waste, and I've never been at a point in my life where ending it would have been considered an option. I just value it too much to do something like that. Rambling again. Sorry.

[luaneryder]

5. Yeah, I don't know that I could have watched that

My 22 year old son was killed in an auto accident almost 6 years ago. Had he took his own life it would have been even harder to absorb. I feel for this father as I do John Edwards.

[Catch22Dem]

7. So sorry to hear that...

I can't even begin to imagine, nor do I want to. So sorry.

ON EDIT: I'm sorry if that sounded rude. What I meant was, I hope I'm never put in a situation where I have to understand what people who lose their children feel. I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. Every time I hear about kids dying before their parents I become a basket case and fail to articulate my feelings.

[HuckleB]

23. Most don't leave letters or any form of communication.

More and more, we're finding that, for the majority (70 plus percent of suicides), the end comes very impulsively. In fact, a number of studies now show fast, severe changes in serotonin levels right before suicide attempts.

The bottom line: Those who don't know what depression, schizophrenia and bipolar disorders are like, simply can't imagine the pain. We can't compare our experiences. Our brains simply work too differently.

[mzmolly]

3. I watched a bit of the testimony, but missed this portion.

I do hope that mental health issues are given the attention they deserve.

Wow look at this last portion of the article.

Endorsing Smith's $60 million bill, Nickles said, "I have no doubt as a result of us passing this legislation, we'll end up saving a lot of lives, maybe thousands of lives." The bill would help states develop prevention strategies and fund more mental health services on college campuses.

More than 30,000 Americans kill themselves each year and suicide is the third-leading cause of death for people aged 10-24.

New Mexico Republican Pete Domenici, who has been very public about his daughter's struggle with schizophrenia, had gone home early, but threw on a suit and dashed back to the Senate to sympathize with Smith.

Domenici said he would make another push for the bill he's advocated for years that would require health insurers to treat serious mental illness the same way they treat physical illness and lashed out at fellow Republicans who had anonymously used a procedural move to block it. "I don't know who you are yet," said Domenici, "but I'll find out."

[Catt03]

10. Whoa......

Intense response. And, hate to admit it, but he is right about insurance companies paying for mental health. In addition to the fact the the US is one of the lowest in spending and acceptance of mental illness in developed countries.

[aquart]

83. This bill is worthless.

They're going to hand out a few pamphlets?

This kid had a lifelong struggle with a society that doesn't know what to do with this kind of problem. It wasn't going to go away and he knew it.

Domenici's bill is worth looking at. This suicide bill is a pathetic Republican bandaid and the grieving parent who proposed it should be ashamed.

[UpInArms]

6. suicide is a tragic permanent solution

for generally temporary problems.

I have had some personal up close and in my face dealings and they have left lasting psychological scars.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. But therein lies the problem..let tragedy strike a Republican and they'll

act..nevermind the millions they dragged their heals on before tragedy struck them...nevermind the cuts to state budgets that led to the abolition of so many public services...nevermind their stacking of the courts against the interests of consumers that led to decisions that allowed these conditions to persist...nevermind the suffering of others...nevermind the manner in which they have fucked over medicare, headstart and other valuable programs that COULD make a difference....I am truly sorry for his loss...but I am disgusted that he would personally fashion a bill for HIS needs after ignoring the needs of others.

[Catt03]

13. Right

let illness strike any politician's family and they become health activists

[lumpy]

28. i.e.

Ronald Reagan

[fortyfeetunder]

57. George Nethercutt (running for WA state Senate)

he's broadcasting these ads in W. Wa about his diabetes activism because his daughter has it.

I wish they had the passion to crusade solutions for other illnesses that strike others and not when it's first in their family.

[oneighty]

14. Yes

Destroy the social programs and soon everybody finds a place of hurt.

180

[liberalhistorian]

16. Exactly! THAT is one of the things that

just makes me so totally crazy when it comes to repukes and the right. Only when things affect THEM PERSONALLY do they give a flying damn, and even then only to the extent that it still affects them. And for anyone else in the same situation, it's always a "lack of personal responsibility" or some other such bullshit, whereas when it happens to them it's NEVER their doing, EVER!!

My nephew committed suicide four years ago due to undiagnosed schizophrenia, so this isn't a new situation for my family. I'm truly sorry Senator Gordon had to go through that and truly sorry for his loss, but where the fuck was he when his wonderful, compassionate party was decimating mental health services (thanks Raygun), decimating funding for even emergency mental health services for juveniles, etc., etc., etc.?

[They_LIHOP]

29. Truer words never spoken....

The fundamental difference, I believe, betwixt 'them' and 'us' is the development of a trait known as EMPATHY. Empathy is a part of both an individuals personal emotional growth (usually starts to happen around age 5), and the evolution of life on this planet (only very advanced species are capable of it).

The 'Cons are people who are either less evolved, or simply less emotionally mature, than we Liberals. They believe that competition (aka capitalism) is the end-all, be-all of a functioning society, and seem to lack empathy as an inherent trait. They view EVERY aspect of life through the prism of 'how does this affect ME and MINE', period. Libs on the other hand, we value cooperation (hence most of us are at least sympathetic to some or many aspects of socialism, even as we see it's futility at this stage in the evolution of man), and have empathy for all human beings (and even animals), as a matter of course. We didn't learn it, it is simply how we are. Evolved. Emotionally mature. Complete human beings.

That said, I am sorry for the man's loss. Some good may come of the tragedy IF it will cause him to think twice about voting for actions which may be expected to cause OTHERS similar pain in their lives - something I'd guess that he's considered.

On second thought, nah... It won't. Because this 'lack of empathy' trait is too deep, too fundamental - you either have it, or you don't. But this bill is a step in the right direction, I'll give him props for attempting to evolve beyond the thought-processes of, say, a wasp, and into the realm of the honey-bee...

'Course, though, being a GOPper, he'll want it to be called the <son's name> Smith Act of 2004 or some such, just so the base will understand that he's not REALLY 'empathetic', he just want's something to 'come of' the death of his son. Wouldn't want to alienate the base by acting like you CARE about PEOPLE in general beyond YOURSELF. Freeper-type's would vote against him for sure if he did that! They'd look at him like he had two heads and a tail...

[Colin Ex]

81. This is not a particularly nice post.

Reading this, you'd think Republicans beat kittens in the streets starting at age ten or something.

Makes me glad DUers aren't running the country.

-C

[Colin Ex]

80. Well, according to his biography, he would have been

practicing law and operating a frozen food company.

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=S001142

So that's what he was doing while his party was decimating mental health services. I don't really think this is something we can pin on him.

-C

[HuckleB]

24. Sorry, but it's not just the GOP.

This is a pattern repeated in politicians of all stripes the world over.

This is a good bill. Let's be happy for its existence.

[calico1]

39. I agree

I did see the portion where he was talking on the floor of the Senate--or should I say, sobbing. Very pitiful and I couldn't help but feel for him. I have a family member who suffers from depression. All I will say is its very hard to help a person who does not want to help themselves. I hope this bill passes if it can help prevent more of this. I would not wish this on anyone regardless of their political views.

[sandnsea]

70. You got that right

Here's what he just said in Eugene on July 1. He STILL doesn't get it. If I didn't have a little human decency in me, I'd write him and tell him, too bad, his son should have just made different choices.


Urbina challenged Smith's assertion that food insecurity - worry about going hungry - rather than hunger plagues low-income families here.

High gas prices hammering Florence residents are driven by the growth of the middle class in India and China, which drives up the cost of fuel here, he said.

And a living wage sounds good, but Oregon already has one of the highest minimum wages in the country, and if businesses were required to pay more, they'd stop hiring, he said.

Congress can do something about helping strengthen the safety net, said Smith, who supports the Good Samaritan Act, which would make food donations easier for businesses.

He also said that people facing the challenges described at Wednesday's meeting needed to be "incentivized to go make different choices."

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/07/01/d1.cr.food.0701.html

[Colin Ex]

79. You know what? Something as severe as suicide,

I don't give a fuck. What matters is that we're seeing eye to eye now and can work for this common goal.

I'm more than willing to let the past be if it means getting badly needed help for a lot of kids. No sour grapes on this: what matters is that we're ready to knock it out for a common goal, and I welcome that.

-C

[Neecy]

11. This is very sad

It's a shame that the Human Man-God, Ronald Reagan, decimated the local mental health care clinics in this country. We're still feeling the effects of it.

Strange how it takes the suicide of a Senator's family member for them to restore programs that existed in the 1970's. I guess that's the only way for the proles to gain some crumbs.

Still, it's a tragic story and I feel sympathy for the Smith family. No father should go through this...

[CBHagman]

17. Domenici has been a public advocate for mental health care.

As far as I can recall, Senator Pete Domenici has been a very vocal advocate of mental health care. I believe he did bipartisan work with Paul Wellstone, God rest his soul. You will recall that Domenici cried while being interviewed following the tragic loss of the Wellstones and their staffers.

Anyway, I hate the fact that lives, especially young lives, are lost to suicide. Unfortunately, the members of the House and Senate are no strangers to this. Rep. Bart Stupak's (D-MI) son killed himself a year or two back. That has to be one of the most unimaginable tragedies a parent can face. I am sorry to hear that Gordon Smith's family is going through the same thing.

[4_Legs_Good]

12. screw partisanship.

Anything that helps the mentally ill has my endorsement.

It's nice and refreshing to see Republicans fighting for something worth fighting for. Good luck!

david

[k in IA]

19. They just showed it on the NBC nightly news. It was very sad.

[Career Prole]

20. "He saw only despair ahead..."

"He saw only despair ahead and felt only pain in his present."

Yeah, repugs had a lot of people feeling that way last September.


The chamber was almost empty as Smith began to speak, as he lamented that there is "no owner's manual to help you bury a child, especially when the cause is suicide."

There's no owner's manual to help you bury a child, period!
Whether it's suicide in a college apartment, or a young soldier shot in Baghdad, or an Iraqi toddler blown up in Fallujah.
Bush lied and Gordon Smith helped. A dead child is a dead child. Sometimes you reap the whirlwind.

[HuckleB]

26. "Sometimes you reap the whirlwind."

Sorry, but that's just unnecessary and ugly. It's the type of ugliness that keeps death and destruction in play, that keeps people in this country from talking to one another. It's unkind to the core and serves no purpose whatsoever.

[Career Prole]

31. Damned straight it's unkind!

It's also hard-meat reality. We ignore flag-draped coffins for political expediency, we censor graphic footage from our nightly newscasts so Mr. and Mrs. Comfortably Numb won't be offended at the sight of soldiers dying needlessly in their name, and hundreds of dead Iraqi children don't get one single stinking column-inch! Who in the hell cries for them?
Pardon me if I don't fall all over Gordon Smith cooing "There there, Gordy..." because his kid killed himself over perceived difficulties. There are many, many more kids who kill themselves because of real-life misery and actual hollow-gutted despair. Who in the hell cries for them?

[HuckleB]

33. This is a good bill that might do something positive for once.

But you don't get that, do you?

No one's asking you to "fall over Gordon Smith cooing" anything. This board is about a good bill. A bill that deserves passage. A bill that might actually do some good, for once.

God forbid that anything good come out in this world unless its absolutely pure and comes from an absolutely pure source.

That's the reality. There's no need to mix the war --and all the other crap that we're all aware of-- up with this. You can criticize Smith elsewhere, under other contexts. All you're doing here is creating more of a problem in this nation. All you're doing here is copying the talk-radio nuts and their hatred. All you're doing here is following them down their road to making sure that no one ever discusses a damn thing. All you're doing is making sure that all anyone does is scream at one another. Do you think that's going to save any lives?

I don't.

Further, his kid had bipolar disorder. He didn't kill himself "over perceived difficulties." Perhaps you should educate yourself about mental illness and its causes before you make such a ridiculous statement.

[justjones]

41. You beat me to it....

Saying he killed himself "over perceived difficulties" is problematic.

Although I understand the point CP is trying to make when he/she says a you can't compare the pain of a parent who loses his child by suicide or because their child was forced to go to war under false pretenses, CP, qualifying a person's mental difficulties is what is going to prevent our soldiers from getting treatment they will need to combat their mental illnesses upon returning home.

It's like saying to those soldiers, "At least you made it home," what about those who didn't make it? There is always going to be someone "worse" off, but that doesn't take away the fact that the person is suffering. Qualifying mental illness basically belittles the mental anguish people with such diseases go through...ironicall, the same belittling that most likely prevented this politician's son from getting the treatment he needed.

[Career Prole]

44. You said that well.

Please see my post to the other guy...just ignore the anger, if you can.:)
Republicans don't give a hoot about menntal health...it's bad business for HMO's and runs up against that "personal responsibility" thing they love so much.

[HuckleB]

53. Thanks for continuing to spread useless generalizations.

Boy that sure is useful to the cause!

:eyes:

[ronabop]

85. Something is bothering me.

Okay, the death itself, by self hanging, occurred in Orem, Utah.

Orem out-Mormon's Salt Lake City. Orem is a place Mormons go (or are sent) when they're sick of all the liberals and loose moral values in SLC. (yes, really).

The adopted son left almost *no* trace on the internet. Damn near none. Most of the time, the son is only mentioned in terms of the rather obtuse press release. it's like his entire life was secret, hidden, up until his death.

From the pictures and information I could track down, he was cute... and neat.... and kind... and never had a girlfriend.... and was majoring in Cullinary Arts.

The thing I keep thinking:
What kind of known, "percieved difficulty", would inspire a Mormon family to send their child away from Oregon, into the heart of repression central, all alone, without a damn-near-required local support network?

It doesn't make any sense. Of course, suicide never makes sense, but this family had known there were various issues for years.

I guess I'm wondering if there was another issue that a homophobic right-wing father can't yet bear to face or discuss publicly.

-Bop

[HuckleB]

108. Oh brother.

It's time to get serious. This is unworthy, unnecessary speculation that serves no purpose.

Sheesh.

[Career Prole]

42. I've been under treatment for depression for years now.

My 10 year old daughter is diagnosed bipolar. Perhaps you should educate yourself about me before you make ridiculous statements.
His dad brings in 8 million a year. I guarantee you the kid wasn't working his way through college. Perceived difficulties.
Do you think your condescending scolding of a guy who's used up all this year's grief on other children unjustly killed and has none left for the senator will save a life?

I don't.

Where does Smith stand on this?
http://www.congress.org/bpkids/issues/bills/?bill=3258051

Oh, never mind...he's a co-sponsor.

Is Smith going to side against the drug companies on this?
http://www.rense.com/general52/hid.htm

Not too likely.

"All you're doing here is copying the talk-radio nuts and their hatred. All you're doing here is following them down their road to making sure that no one ever discusses a damn thing."

Bullshit. All I'm doing is not jumping on the only bone they tossed out for mental health and waving my hands yelling hallelujah, thank you. All things considered...they haven't done squat.
Cry me a river, dude.

[HuckleB]

51. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Your statements showed a clear lack of understanding of mental health diagnoses such as depression and bipolar, and suicide in general. For you to now make such a claim about yourself and your daughter is simply out of context with those statements. How am I to believe you on this? My God, you still maintain this baloney about "perceived difficulties" simply because the young man's family is wealthy. How can you make such a statement while trying to tell me that you are diagnosed with MDD and your daughter is diagnosed with bipolar disorder? Talk about a lack of congruence.

I haven't been condescending. And don't act, for a minute, like you're in some special boat when it comes to grief. Your reaction reeks of talk radio anger without reason. I called a spade a spade. You dont' like it? Tough.

I guess that's the kind of attitude you understand.

[slydemfox]

61. I'm sick

Wow--I am amazed. I haven't done a whole lot of posts, like to just see what people are talking about. But this discussion disgusts me. I would never have expected this kind of talk about a person who is dead, and from suicide, on a message board of democrats. I thought I'd never lose faith, that despite differences, we would not lose our humanity for others. Absolutely sick.

[Career Prole]

71. Remember to mind the context, Sly...

Keep an eye on the big picture. You feel I lack empathy, no doubt. I have empathy to spare...but I'm also very mindful of the fact that the Republican party has done considerable damage to the mental healthcare system in this country. They only act like it's a problem when it bites them personally, and then throw together a bill and in this instance put their loved one's name in it.
There have been many, many mentally ill Americans who have had their support system ripped out from underneath them to pay for tax cuts for the rich and illegal wars. Republicans didn't give them a thought. No one cried on the Senate floor or wanted to name a program after John Doe from Nowhereville...no friends, no family, no future, and no hope so he maybe stepped in front of a train or fell into a bottle until he drank himself to death because he got put out on the street for the sake of budget-cutting when he couldn't care for himself.
No one gave a shit about John Doe then, and they won't tomorrow.
Senator Smith...sorry for your loss. Remember to walk the walk now that you've talked the talk.
Better? :)
Welcome to DU, Sly! :hi:

[HuckleB]

76. More useless generalizations, and, uh, apparent feigned empathy.

How very helpful.

Go back to your talk-radio mindlessness. Your self-inflicted, supposed pity party. You came here with nothing but venom, and even when you try to back away from that venom, that's what still shows most brightly. Sorry, but that's poison. It doesn't help. Not in this situation. This is a positve that you worked very hard to turn into the most negative thing that you could.

That's pitiful.

In the meantime, those of us who actually do give a rip would like to try to do some things to improve this country. God forbid that some of those things come from less than pure sources. That's democracy. It ain't pure. It's nature is dirty. And it contains a hell of a lot more empathy than you are able to muster in your current talk-radio filled world

Somehow a lot of good, clean things come out of this dirty democracy, despite the fundamentalists on all sides trying to keep any good from occurring without their spit hitting the fan.

----------

Sheesh. This is what worries me about progressive talk radio. It's going to turn DU and liberal discussion into the crap one sees on the Right Wing sites.

Yuck!

[Career Prole]

62. Then we have no more to say to one another, do we?

I haven't "acted like I'm in some special boat when it comes to grief". Your Senator has.
Accept your Senator's token concession to the mental health crisis in this country. Buy him a bouquet. Give him a hug and thank him for "caring".
People like you who keep meekly accepting the pittance the right is willing to give are the problem, not the solution.
You called me a liar, by the way. I'll take the high road and not come right out and call you a simpering complacent bootlicker.

[HuckleB]

75. Dude, you got caught.

Sorry, that's just the reality. How about taking the high road and admitting it?

Wow! Now that would be different. But it's clear that you'd rather play the old talk-radio shout 'em down nonsense, saying whatever comes to mind no matter how foolish.

So whaddya say? It's clear that you don't know anything about mental illness, yet you claimed to know it first-hand.

Come clean. It's the decent thing to do.

[Colin Ex]

82. Mommy, daddy, stop fighting! You're ruining my birthday!! (nt)

[HuckleB]

95. Colin, it's called a DISCUSSION!!! NOW GO TO YOUR ROOOOOM!!

Friggin' kids.

;)

[Justice]

21. Republicans Though Have Tunnel Vision On These Issues - Read This

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/04/14/time/carlson.html

"Hard-nosed budget hawk Senator Pete Domenici, whose daughter has suffered from mental illness, expensively amended the Kennedy-Kassebaum health-care bill to cover such afflictions."

This article was a real eye opener for me - showing how republicans will support the very program that helps their loved one, yet are unable to support other government programs that help those with other, perhaps similiar, perhaps not, equally devastating illnesses or events.

I should add that yes, I am very sorry for his son and their family - it is so very sad. I would though feel better if he were able to take his grief and do something for others. I would like to see a Republican sob for a stranger. On Monday night this week, I had the privilege of seeing John Edwards in Boston. He said, "it should bother us in this room that children are going to bed hungry tonight" - and he stated the number of hungry children and talked about this problem. John Edwards cares about strangers - and when he is Vice President, you can bet we are going to do something about child hunger.

[lumpy]

30. Pete Domenici

wouldn't give a rat's ass about the problems with mental illness if his daughter wasn't suffering from mental illness. You can be damned sure he doesn't have any feeling for anyone with any kind of affliction, financial, physical, or war torn.

[Career Prole]

69. Exactly! Problem is there are a lot of people who mistake that for empathy

It isn't empathy if you're blind to it until it affects you personally.

[stevedeshazer]

25. Gordon Smith is one of my senators.

I worked to defeat him (unsuccessfully) in 2002.

That said, depression is very real. My best friend Roy killed himself almost exactly five years ago to this day because or in spite of it.

Yeah, Gordo's a Republican, and to fan the flames even more, he's a Mormon.

So what.

This is an issue that should transcend party lines.

I dislike Gordon Smith's politics, and I will never, ever vote for him. But this depression/suicide thing I understand, and I won't begrudge him for that, and he is right to fight for a few million bucks to help depressed people. What's wrong with that?

Sixty million bucks appropriated for this is a pittance.

I can't believe I just defended Gordon Smith.

[Pastiche423]

45. In February of 2003

there were drastic cuts to many programs for the disabled and mentally ill.

In my county in Oregon, there were seven suicides w/i a month of the cuts. As an activist and as someone that was affected by the cuts, I wrote to Gordo, as well as Wyden and DeFazio. I got responses from Wyden and DeFazio. I got zip from Gordo.

I feel for his son's short and tortured life and hope a bill passes that will truly help those in need. Gordo gets the same response he gave to me.

[stevedeshazer]

56. Fair enough

That's why I oppose him politically. That's why I'm a Democrat. The fact that Wyden and DeFazio responded is no surprise, they've both responded to me, too.

Gordo's staff sent me a form letter when I wrote asking him to oppose the Iraq War resolution.

Losing a child tends to make one more sympathetic, I guess. Too bad it took that bad of a personal loss to make him see the benefits of suicide prevention.

[HuckleB]

110. I dunno.

I get share of non-responses and form letters from Wyden and Blumenhaer, too. Not too mention most of the other folks I've written to over the years. Smith knows he represents a state capable of dethroning him, if he pisses enough people off. I think this keeps a very conservative man a bit more moderate. The more we communicate with him regarding our concerns and hopes for the nation, the more likely he is to moderate his stances and votes. Sure, we'll still be unhappy the majority of the time, but every vote of his that we can swing our way is worthy, in my estimation.

[SharonAnn]

65. Sometimes people do good things for wrong reasons. I accept

the good things anyway, but I know that it probably hasn't changed the person who did it.

Accept the benefit, be sorry for his loss, and work to get him defeated.

[PA Democrat]

27. My heart goes out to anyone who loses a child

It's just sad that it takes a personal tragedy to elicit compassion for others.

[Cronus Protagonist]

32. Sad for the father but it's the son's life to do with as he wished.

Not the best choice, as all depressing things pass, but for him, he was an adult who decided he would prefer to be done with it all.

I don't agree it was the best choice, but I respect his authority over his own life. If you're not free to take your own life, you're not free.

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[HuckleB]

34. While I despise our legal system's stance toward suicide,

your post indicates that you don't understand bipolar disorder very well. It's very likely that this wasn't what most of us would call a "conscious" choice.

[Cronus Protagonist]

47. You just don't know

And you'll never know. Only he will know what it was like living with his disorder. I had a family member commit sucide by jumping off a bridge into traffic, so my comments were not without thought or compassion. Ultimately, only the person whos life it is, has sovergeinty over themselves and ultimately, only they can decide whether their quality of life is worth living with or whether it would be better to end it at their own discretion.

Having said that, I'm all for counselling services and free health care to those with personality or brain disorders to help them work through and with it and hopefully gain a better persepctive. However, even with that, it's still their own decision.

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[HuckleB]

52. We know a lot more about these disorders than you are acknowledging...

[Cronus Protagonist]

84. Please elucidate.

I'm interested to know what it is that I don't know and I, sure as there's no hell, don't know everything.

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
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[HuckleB]

90. Start here:

The Neurobiology of Depression:
http://www.lib.calpoly.edu/infocomp/modules/05_evaluate/WIC2b.html

-----
Why? The Neuroscience of Suicide:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0006AF90-5BC7-1E1B-8B3B809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Both pieces are getting a bit outdated, but I haven't been keeping up on how the popular science mags are covering the science, and, unfortunately the research pubs don't allow general access to the public.

A wonderful read is Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide by Kay Redfield Jamison -- actually all of her books are very accessible and help promote science and personal experience based understanding of mental illness.

[HuckleB]

94. One more:

http://www.neurotransmitter.net/bipolarsuicide.html

[justjones]

46. Slippery slope if you ask me.

Although I respect everyone's authority over their own life, I do not agree that someone who commits suicide is making the conscious choice to end their life. I will believe it when the statistics show that those who are positively identified as having no mental illness whatsoever start killing themselves at the same rate as those with a history of mental illness and those who are identified as having undiagnosed mental illness retrospectively.

Your argument falls in line with the same rationale that insurance companies use to not treat mental illness as a physical disease...."because it's a conscious choice." But I would argue that if you are depressed to the point of considering suicide, you should be treated just like you would treat someone who is mentally incapacitated because I believe from personal experience that all healthy person will always choose life.

[Cronus Protagonist]

48. Apparently I didn't make myself clear

I'm all for free supportive and theraputic care for the mentall ill. However, that does not extend to claiming sovereignty over another's life, either to take it nor give it. I oppose forced pregnancy, support a woman's right to choose and on the flip side of the same coin, I do not think the choice for or against suicide is a matter for the government - it's a personal choice that can only be made by the person involved, sick or not by societal standards.

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[justjones]

58. You made yourself clear, I just don't agree.

Not about goverment getting involved, just about personal choice. I think inherent in the personal choice to kill oneself is insanity. But perhaps our point of contention is the degree of personal responsibility one can take for their own insanity.

There's a reason why mentally ill people have executors and guardians, because they are deemed not to be able to make a personal choice that is always in their best interest. Thus, that's what I believe about those who are contemplating suicide.

However, I'm not saying the government should step in and take the authority, I just think the concept of personal choice when it comes to mental illness is a slippery slope. Your argument is along the lines of those Republicans use to justify not funding mental health programs....if it's a personal choice for someone to kill themselves then they could easily and equally make the personal choice to live, thus demonstrating that you can will yourself out of mental illness and thus we shouldn't fund another free handout because it's all about personal responsibility, blah, blah.

At the same time, I can see your point about not wanting the government to step in and take away someone's sovereignty over their own life, thus the slippery slope, the quagmire mental health creates.

[Cronus Protagonist]

86. OK, I see what you mean

And as you noted, I don't agree with you. Just because the "right" use a fact to their benefit or to another's detriment doesn't influence my thinking about that fact.

Your argument, and I may be wrong here, is that, since the Republicans use the fact of our individual freedom and total sovereignty over our own bodies and life force as an ax to cut funding for healthcare, you argue for a restriction on these freedoms because that is the opposite of the Republican position and it will save lives as well?

Being absolutely committed to personal freedom might be an attribute exhuded by conservatives, but it is also one that is essential if one is to have freedom at all, for nothing could be more basic and important in the life of a free person than his freedom to choose the path his life takes.

A love for freedom is not necessarily, or only, a Republican trait, it's a Democratic triat, an American trait and one of the finest human traits of all mankind.

It is surely a fact that we are sovereign over our bodies. And that fact is enshrined in the US Constitution for all to know, uphold and confirm.

Your argument, apart from setting off on the slippery slope you mention, presupposes that the establishment would be sane enough to interpret a person's life, behavior or thoughts and that society as a whole is what determines a "norm" and any deviation from that is suspect and should be restrained even at the cost of almost all of the person's personal freedoms.

You argue for, essentially, jailing or sedating someone to prevent them from killing themselves, for instance, because in the establishment view, considering and/or attemptin to kill onesself is indicative of insanity and therefore one loses the right over one's own life and death, one's freedom to wander the world and one's freedom to express onesself as one might wish.

I argue for providing proper care and free medical care for these people who find themselves having difficulties fitting into society and especially those who cannot do so at all.

Note that I did not propose killing or abandoning the mentally ill. I proposed free healthcare and a high respect for the sanctity of one's freedom to live as one wishes.

I think that's the definition of liberty.

Choose Kerry Lose Bush - FUCK BUSH - Drop Bush Not Bombs!
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[Guaranteed]

87. There are ethical arguments that disagree with you.

What gives a person value is their ability to reason, which, in turn, is our basis for autonomy. If one decides to commit suicide, then one is declaring that one has no value, and thus no reason. If you don't have reason, though, why should your decision be respected?

It's just hard to believe that anyone truly in their right mind, thinking reasonably, would want to commit suicide. I think that we have an ethical obligation, as a society, to keep people from doing it except under certain circumstances (like terminal illness). This is one of the very few social issues where I believe the government should interfere in people's lives.

[The_Casual_Observer]

35. Would this guy be in favor of this "Social Spending" bill

if he didn't lose his own son? Since he is a repuke, I doubt it. It reminds me of the time Reagan's buddy Brady got shot, all of a sudden he was transformed into a progressive anti-gun lobbyist.

[HuckleB]

36. Probably not.

Though he's more likely to be so than most Republicans, and even a few Dems, for that matter.

This is a good bill. It serves a good purpose. Let's support it, and fight him on other matters.

[The_Casual_Observer]

37. I would support the bill and others like it.

However I wouldn't support him.

[HuckleB]

50. I'm not sure what that means.

Obviously I wouldn't vote for him in an election. Heck, I've voted against the guy three times already. But I would support him in terms of presenting bills such as this.

[The_Casual_Observer]

73. That's what I meant

[Obamarama]

55. Leave the man alone....

I'm not familiar with his record or his agenda, but he's a Republican so I'mm sure whatever they are, I'm opposed to them.

What I do know is that if his son's suicide was the price of getting something done to help those on the brink of taking their own lives, it was far too expensive. The man was a father reacting to his son's struggle with life and his death by his own hand. Surely that can transcend political divisions.

[PfcHammer]

66. Senate passes suicide prevention bill

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N08458065.htm

US senator's tearful plea helps pass suicide bill
09 Jul 2004 01:06:10 GMT
By Joanne Kenen

Oregon Republican Gordon Smith took the floor to introduce a youth suicide prevention bill named after his dead son. With unusual speed, the Senate unanimously passed the measure within hours.

[Bolo Boffin]

72. I wonder if that had anything to do with this:

From the previous article:

New Mexico Republican Pete Domenici, who has been very public about his daughter's struggle with schizophrenia, had gone home early, but threw on a suit and dashed back to the Senate to sympathize with Smith.

Domenici said he would make another push for the bill he's advocated for years that would require health insurers to treat serious mental illness the same way they treat physical illness and lashed out at fellow Republicans who had anonymously used a procedural move to block it. "I don't know who you are yet," said Domenici, "but I'll find out."

Hmmmmmm....could be!

[The_Casual_Observer]

74. There are strict and low limits on coverage of mental illness

claims on private insurance programs.

When Rayguns was pres. it is well known that they put many mentally ill people on the streets. The City of Riverside Ca. was absolutely overrun. They would buy them a one way ticket out of LA to the Riverside Bus station. For years the streets of the downtown were crowded with these poor souls wandering around. It was unholy.

[Hobarticus]

67. Meanwhile, in the House...

The House continues to let the guvmint prosecute users of medicinal marijuana, overriding state laws allowing such use:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=671442&mesg_id=671442

I know it's unrelated, but somehow a tragedy's a tragedy, and suffering's suffering, only when it affects the GOP.

[HuckleB]

77. This is very unrelated.

There are many Democrats who find the whole medical marijuana argument wanting, and that doesn't make them bad people out to cause suffering. Usually that makes them scientists, researchers and front-line practitioners who struggle to see the logic behind these laws.

Sorry, but I do support the legalization of marijuana in general. I just find the medical marijuana justification very weak, lacking serious efficacy.

The program offered by Smith has a great deal of research and efficacy behind it, so I see no comparison.

[Colin Ex]

78. My sympathies to Senator Smith.

I'm sure this is going to haunt him for a long time -- I hope he manages to find his way through it as best he can.

Peace action to him.

-C

[LeftHander]

88. Frist will add a perm Death Tax amendment to this...

Then call for a cloture vote.

Then he will blame Democrats for playing partisan election year politics on a good compasionate bill.



All kidding aside....the loss of child is horrible by any means....even war.

[livinginphotographs]

89. I sympathize, BUT!!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/06/11/mental.health.ap/index.html

Maybe he should've talked some sense into his own party. Quite a few people remain untreated for psychiatric problems because they simply can't afford it, and who knows how many suicides that leads to?

Not to downplay the impact of this tragedy Smith's life, but why is it that Republicans seem to not give a flying fuck about any of these issues until they're personally affected (stem-cell research comes to mind)?

[HuckleB]

91. Point taken, repeatedly on this board.

How about we use this as a start to change things for the better rather than get muddled up in past grudges?

That's my plan. I hope you'll join me.

[livinginphotographs]

97. And I posted this before reading all the other posts

on this thread.

So it's okay to give this guy loads of credit for some b.s. bill that's really only a band-aid on the problem, while his party allows the health insurance lobby to keep any real good from being done?

Lots of people with mental illness need medication. Many (and I know quite a few) that know that they need treatment don't get it, because they can't afford it. A touchy-feely bill that puts pamphlets everywhere doesn't do a whole lot of good. Working to give people more access to treatments and making insurance companies pay for them does a hell of a lot of good.

Like I said, I feel for the man's personal tragedy, but I'm not going to get all gushy because he threw us some peanuts after having something happen to him that's been happening to others for many many years.

[HuckleB]

101. Who's giving this guy "lots of credit"?

It's just so tiring to read the machinations for folks who feel that we must find the negative in everything.

Don't start with me on the mental health system. I know it from just about every angle you could imagine.

This is a start. God forbid that we choose to move forward for once, rather than rehash past complaints ad nauseum. Mental health patients don't have time for that type of nonsense. And that type of crap doesn't help them, so don't pretend that it does.

Sorry, it's just gotten to the point of absolute bizarro world nonsense. I know you won't like me saying that, but it has.

[livinginphotographs]

107. You are the one giving him "lots of credit"

Or at least that's what I've gathered while seeing you pretty much jump down the throat of everyone who's not sharing your utter gratitude to this guy for a bullshit bill. You constantly hint at your expertise with the mental health system, which I won't dispute, since I don't know you, but that doesn't give you the right to get condescending with everyone else, because likewise you don't know me, or what area I may know "from just about every angle you could imagine."

I have friends on college campuses that could probably benefit from the programs that are already in place, which consist of free counselors, anonymous suicide help lines, etc. But with depression that is more biological than situational, talking to a counselor is only going to do so much.

I feel bad for this guy, don't get me wrong, regardless of political party. This is a personal tragedy that no one should have to go through. But I don't think this is a step in the right direction, and I don't think it's going to fix a thing. What would be a step in the right direction is for our lawmakers to get out of the pockets of the health insurance companies and start treating psychological problems like all other physical illnesses, so these friends of mine could actually afford the drugs that they need to be taking.

[HuckleB]

109. It's time to grow up, my friend.

Read what I actually say, instead of what you want me to have said.

I've jumped on this because it's ridiculous and small-minded of DUers to go down the same road that the talk-radio right wingnuts have gone down. It's useless to portray everyone as the devil. It serves no positive end.

You don't want to understand that. You'd rather waste your time on mindless self-righteousness.

Fine.

I'll do some work while you whine.

Alas, it seems that fewer and fewer are willing to join me.

I know you won't. You think this is worthless. I guess we should all just give up.

Hey, maybe it's you that needs this service?

If so, please go. Go somewhere and get help now. Really.

[livinginphotographs]

111. Nice.

You tell me to grow up, then refuse to debate my point, instead resorting to calling me a whiner, and saying that "maybe it's you that needs this service."

I'm so happy you decided to enlighten me with your expert advice, since you're such an incredibly mature person. I didn't realize that disagreeing with you meant I needed "help."

I'm not being self-righteous, you are. I simply said that this bill doesn't do any good, so while feeling for this guy's tragedy, why should I feel grateful to him when a bill that actually be helpful was blocked by his own party?

Of course, since I need "help," I guess there's no point in even debating it with me. :eyes:

How about this: I "grow up" and you take the chip off your shoulder?

[Torgo4]

92. I Wonder if he cared...

....BEFORE it happened to him and it became personl.

Seems Conservatives only care in the 1st person, no empathy or "There but for the grace of God go I.." sentiment.

I DO feel sorry for him though. That's gotta hurt! :(

[JoFerret]

96. Why is that Republicans

can only get behind an issue for the public good when it directly affects them personally?

[ignatius]

98. My brother is manic depressive, it is a day to day thing with him

but as long as he takes his meds, he does ok.

The thing that gets me wiith the repukes is, there is very little empathy until a disaster strikes them personally. Like Alzheimers and Ronnie..he could not give a rat's ass that hundreds of thousands were dying of aids,Brady with gun control..I am sure there are many more examples but those are the ones I easily recall.

[depakid]

99. The bottom line

Mental health issues aren't any different than physical health issues and until we have universal healthcare, tragedies will continue to happen.

It's sad that it almost always takes something personal to drive that point home to Republicans and even many Democrats.

As far as Gordon Smith is concerned- perhaps he might spend a little more time and wield a little more of his influence closer to home, where his party has after years of constant battling, finally succeeded in dismantling the Oregon Health Plan- which once upon a time helped many, many people who suffered just as his son did.

[HuckleB]

103. Alas, the last Oregon legislature that actually did its job...

had Smith as speaker, working with Governor Kitzhaber. Two of the last of the old-school Oregonians in public service, actually trying to come to a solution rather than simply playing games with people's money and lives and services.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

100. Off-topic but... the headline writer should have a better grasp of English

"Plea" is a noun. "Plead" is a verb. A senator can plead for a bill or make a plea for a bill, but cannot plea for a bill.

I wouldn't nitpick if this were a DU poster's headline, but a news source should have higher standards... unless this is some British usage that differs from American usage.

[Joanne98]

102. Republican becomes human

This is a man bites dog story.........So RARE

[skip fox]

104. I watched on C-SPAN. It was moving and eloquent.

n/t