In new party platform, Democrats endorse some key pro-Israel positions

[Dardi]

WASHINGTON, July 8 (JTA) — The Democratic Party wants to send the right message to the American Jewish community about its priorities in the Middle East, but its platform fails to include several positions Jewish groups recommended.

The platform, being revised this weekend in Miami, resolves to uphold the close relationship between the United States and Israel, according to sources who have reviewed the relevant sections. It also negates a Palestinian refugee “right of return” to Israel and says the armistice line ending Israel’s 1948 War of Independence — known as the Green Line — cannot be the basis for negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, implicitly recognizing some Israeli claims to the West Bank.

“It is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice line of 1949,” the draft reads.

. . .

The platform could be an opportunity for Democrats to solidify their traditional base of American Jewish support with policy positions that match Bush administration support for Israel.

The rest:

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=Democratic+platform+eyes+Israel+&intcategoryid=5

This is interesting. I wonder if this will become a major campaign issue.

[Larkspur]

1. So to gain American Zionist support, Dems have to declare Palestinians

as sub-human and not deserving of humans rights.

How un-American!!!

[Dardi]

14. Wow, I completely missed the "sub-human" part

of the Democratic platform. Would you please quote for me the section where the platform declares Palestinians as "sub-human" and " not deserving of humans rights?" I sure would appreciate it.

Or was that just hyperbole?

[funnymanpants]

35. Look a little closer, please

Kerry is fully supporting the far-right in Israel. The cabinet of Sharon has members of a party that advocate ethnic cleansing.

As I've written in other posts, Israel is guilty of war crimes, including "willful kiling and torture." Their current policy is one of apartheid, in which the the Palestinians are treated as bad as blacks were treated in South Africa--at least if we are to believe the words of nobel-prize winner Nelson Mendela.

Kerry is fully supporting these policies. So it is not the least bit of a stretch to say that Kerry's platform strips Palestinians of their "human rights," and treates them like "sub-human."

[Dardi]

38. First of all, It's the Democratic Party platform

not the Kerry platform. Second of all, I'd like you to quote or refer to the section of the platform that suggests that anyone is sub-human. Show me the section that advocates or supports ethnic cleansing. Third, the article explicitly states (even in the section quoted above) that the platform does not fully endorse the Israeli position. As for blacks in South Africa, how many blacks were in the South African legislative body during apartheid? How many could vote? Now, how about Israeli arabs? You know, Kissinger also has one of those nifty Nobel Peace Prizes.

[funnymanpants]

70. stop playing dumb

If I lived in the 60's, I could state I am for states rights and that I think that blacks and whites should not inter-marry. Now I have't said that I think that blacks are sub-human. I wouldn't have to. Politicians rarely show their racism. However, that Kerry supports the far-right platform of Bush/Sharon shows he supports apartheid policies.

(Yes, I now that this is technically the Democratic platform. But see as I pointed in my post below, Kerry himself--who I think is a Democract--supports the far-right in Israel. By the way, I like your intelligent response to this post. You simply accuse those who don't agree with you as being Nazis? That is the same as calling them anti-semeitic, which earlier you claimed you would never do.)

When Neslon Mendela talked about apartheid, he wasn't talking about the Arabs in Israel. He was taling about the Palestinians living in the occupied territory. Mendala should know a bit about apartheid. He suffered from it.

I don't see how Mendala is like Kissinger. Did Mendelas covertley support a war in Campbodia, Laos, and Viet Nam that we dont' know of? Please, historians would like to know.

As I pointed out in other posts *every* human rights group that looked at the situation is Israel has found Israel guilty of "willful killing and torute," to quote from a general UN security council resolution that passed something like 142-2, with only the Israelis and the Americans voting against it.

Are you ready to say that 142 nations are wrong? Or are you going to revert to name calling, and label them Nazis?

[Classical_Liberal]

136. That section that advocates the west bank settlements

and says the green line should not be the basis of negotiations advocates ethnic cleansing, and putting the Palestinians into a Bantustan not to mention Apartheid. If the Palestinians don't get the West Bank where the fuck are they suppose to build a real state?

Let's just face it. The dems aren't just whimps. They are corrupt people who represent business and defence contractors, along with their buds, the repukes. Every 2 yrs they scare us into voting for them with a threat on abortion rights. Otherwise 90% of them are a waste of space, and not worthy of the money we pay them.

[Classical_Liberal]

137. People called "Coloreds" served in the Apartheid legislature.

though not in proportion to their numbers in the population.

[keithyboy]

101. Exactly why I won't be voting. There is no 'lesser of two evils' there is

just 'evil.'

[greendeerslayer]

91. not hyperbole

It is a human right to go home.

[wuushew]

96. self delete

[Dardi]

108. Says who?

n/t

[hrhdeb]

2. We live in America

I'm Jewish, and I am often disturbed by Jews I encounter who are going to vote for Bush, simply because he is good for Israel. I understand their sentiment, but I am casting my vote for the President of the United States of America and not for Prime Minister of Israel. Israel has its own elections for that. Maybe this new document will help. We certainly have a lot of cleaning up to do in our own country before we go worrying about someone else's.

deb

http://www.votewhileyoustillcan.com

[madrchsod]

9. welcome to du-nice site

deb..i was making the bouncing bush logo freeze ,it`s entertaining distraction from realizing i have to go to work soon..oh ya-nice thongs

[hrhdeb]

11. thongs

Thank you very much. The bouncing no bush logos make me very happy every time I look at them. Much in the same way that smileys do, but much more sinister.

deb

http://www.votewhileyoustillcan.com

[amandabeech]

100. I'm not Jewish, but

I occasionally have heard Jewish-American friends and colleagues say, "I vote Israel."

I can certainly understand where they are coming from and I can certainly understand Jewish-Americans considering U.S. policy toward Israel in deciding for whom to vote, but I find it troubling when it seems as though they do not take into account the best interests of the U.S. in the least.

Fortunately, those who vote based solely on U.S. policy toward Israel seem to be very much in the minority.

Thank you for bringing this up in a thoughtful and appropriate manner, Deb.

[stepnw1f]

168. Welcome hrhdeb!!!

Very good point.

[IA_Seth]

3. Yuck

This is one part of the platform I have to continue to disagree with. Our leaders continue to do nothing but promote the Israeli's treatment of the Palestinians. I can only imagine if it were a Muslim or Communist state that treated people within its borders the way Israel does.

I read things like this and it makes me sad that even us, the democrats, the opposition to the Grand Old Party of Facism wants to stand up for the leaders in Israel.

[soothsayer]

4. Nah, both camps are in Israel's pocket, so its a moot point

Kerry will never call Sharon a war criminal. Even Michael Moore left Israel (and PNAC) out of F-911. We're all terrified of being called anti-Semetic or whatnot.

[Dardi]

5. What does PNAC have to do with it?

n/t.

[Larkspur]

6. I'm not afraid of being called anti-Semitc by Israel's thugs

Arabs are also of the Semitic tribe. Israel and her allies forget that.

Also, I'm a neo-pagan and despise the Abrahamic god, who is a god of men, for men, and by men, a god of male supremacy and patriarchy. Since this god is the god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, I can't be called anti-Jewish either.

[Dardi]

13. That is some fascinating logic

You "despise the Abrahamic god" but you "can't be called anti-Jewish." Sure. Oh, and while Arabs are certainly semites, the term "anti-Semitic" refers specifically and exclusively to hatred of Jews.

[leesa]

39. Is that from your dictionary. Get a grip , Israel's current government is

fully as evil and murderous as the Bush government. Learn to separate 'Jews' from the 'government of Israel'. Israel is indulging in horrific genocide.

[Dardi]

42. That is from ANY dictionary

How about you go look in one and come tell me what you find. As for "horrific genocide," Hitler engager in horrific Genocide. Millions dead. Stalin engaged in horrific genocide. The Sudan, which will not be sanctioned because of France's veto, is engaging in horrific genocide. In each of those cases existing populations were destroyed. The Palestinian population is growing at a fantastic rate and has been for as long as the population has been measured. That is some pretty weak genocide.

You'd think that the slaughter of all of those thousands of civilians in Jenin during the horrendous Jenin holocaust would have made a dent, but apparently not.

[Classical_Liberal]

138. Genocide is over the top, but ethnic cleansing isn't

Give Israel the west bank as this platform advocates and that is precisely what this policy is.

[Larkspur]

46. I get along with Jews fine. My horse is cared for by a Jew.

And I pamper my Jewish stable owner's pet Vietnamese pot belly pig, Calvin. I don't think he's an orthodox Jew.

At Yuletide/Christmas/Chanukah time, we exchange gifts and last year I gave as one of his presents a box of Chanukah biscuits for his pet beagle. My non-Jewish friends and I also clean the horse and pig stalls on Saturday and Sunday while my Jewish stable owner works 12 hour shifts as an EMT.

I have no problem relating to Jews per se. I don't like their god, but unlike Xtian fundamentalists, they don't force me to worship the Abrahamic god and I don't force them to worship my religion.

But when it comes to Israel, my Jewish friends, who are Zionist or blindly pro-Israel, and I have heated disagreements, but on most other topics outside of Israel, we either agree or have mild disagreements, just like I do with my non-Jewish friends.

One can strongly opposed Israel's apartheid policies and get along with Jews, both those who agree and disagree with Zionism. It all depends on what the friendships are really based upon and agreeing to calling a "timeout" when the heated discussion on Israel gets too much for both parties.

[Dardi]

51. Your horse is cared for by a Jew?

You pamper a Jew's pig?

Well, that settles it then. I retract everything that I've said so far. I can't compete with the Jewish pig-pampering.

[Larkspur]

59. Yep, and my Jewish stable owner loves my horse

He loves all the horses, and he brags to his friends at work about my friends and my pampering of his pet pig. For the first Yuletide, I gave his pig a picture of Miss Piggy to hang up above Calvin's stall, and Bernie, my Jewish stable owner, did so. Bernie has a great sense of humor, just like me.

[Cassandra]

104. Then I guess Bernie...

has no sense of humor at all.

[Larkspur]

177. He'd disagree with me over my stance on Israel

I said that when I mentioned him. He knows that I oppose Israel's actions against the Palestinians, but unlike the Likkudites on this board, he and I can still be friends and co-exist. Bernie, I think, is not a conservative or orthodox Jew. He follows the Jewish holidays but is fairly moderate on Jewish practices, otherwise, he wouldn't have a pet pig.

[drdon326]

133. I wonder what Bernie would think of your post ? n/t

.

[Chicago Democrat]

166. Tell me about you horse!!! I love horses, they are so wonderful!

My friend does Drossage (sp) and has a new horse she bought from Germany. She is tiny.

[The Magistrate]

53. In Other Words, Ma'am

"Some of my best friends are Jews...."

"The mind wobbles."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Jim Sagle]

190. Horseshit.

[neverborn]

192. Well!

"Also, I'm a neo-pagan and despise the Abrahamic god, who is a god of men, for men, and by men, a god of male supremacy and patriarchy."

I think I love you. :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Freddie Stubbs]

135. Is Moore's in Israel's pocket also?

:shrug:

[Jim Sagle]

7. Yessssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Larkspur]

8. Are you anti-Arab-Semitic?

That's what a Zionist is.

[Dardi]

12. A zionist is "anti-arab-Semitic?"

Not only are you inventing new terms, you obviously have no idea what existing terms (like zionist) mean. Kindly link to a definition of "zionist" which even suggests that a zionist is anti-anything.

[Larkspur]

37. Anti-Arab-Semitic and your links to Zionism

By using Anti-Arab-Semitic, I was trying to distinguish between those who hate Jews from those, including pro-Israel( or Zionist) Jews, who hate Arabs and other non-Jewish Semitic people.

A Semite

Dictionary term -- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Semite

A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

A Jew.

Bible. A descendant of Shem.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. -- http://www.bartleby.com/65/se/Semite.html

originally one of a people believed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah. Later the term came to include the following peoples: Arabs; the Akkadians of ancient Babylonia; the Assyrians; the Canaanites (including Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Ammonites, and Phoenicians); the various Aramaean tribes (including Hebrews); and a considerable portion of the population of Ethiopia. These peoples are grouped under the term Semite, chiefly because their languages were found to be related, deriving presumably from a common tongue, Semitic. The Semites were largely nomadic pastoralists, although some settled in villages.
<snip>

Zionism

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. -- http://www.bartleby.com/65/zi/Zionism.html

modern political movement for reconstituting a Jewish national state in Palestine...
<snip>

Since the Holocaust and Founding of Israel
After World War II the Zionist movement intensified its activities. The sufferings of the European Jews at the hands of the Germans demanded the opening of a refuge; the stiffening opposition of the Arabs increased the urgency. At this time the World Zionist Congress was divided, the Revisionists demanding all Palestine and the General Zionists reluctantly accepting the United Nations plan to partition Palestine (see Israel). After the Jewish state was proclaimed (May 14, 1948), the Zionist movement was forced to reevaluate its goals.

Against those who argued that the simple expression of support for Israel was sufficient for affiliation, the movement’s 1968 Jerusalem Program defined the goal of personal migration to Israel as a requirement for membership. However, most Jews in the United States and other Western democracies seemed content to support the Zionist movement as a means of supporting Israel, without any personal commitment to living there. The Zionist movement today facilitates migration to Israel and supports Jewish cultural and educational activities in the diaspora.

Mahatma Gandhi Rejected Zionism from The Wisdom Fund http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/0815-GandhiZionism.html

Gandhi's major statement on the Palestine and the Jewish question came forth in his widely circulated editorial in the Harijan of 11 November 1938, a time when intense struggle between the Palestinian Arabs and the immigrant Jews had been on the anvil in Palestine. His views came in the context of severe pressure on him, especially from the Zionist quarters, to issue a statement on the problem. Therefore, he started his piece by saying that his sympathies are all with the Jews, who as a people were subjected to inhuman treatment and persecution for a long time.

"But", Gandhi asserted, "My sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and in the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after their return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?"

He thus questioned the very foundational logic of political Zionism. Gandhi rejected the idea of a Jewish State in the Promised Land by pointing out that the "Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract."
<SNIP>

Gandhi withstood almost all Zionist attempts at extracting a pro-Zionist stance from him. G.H. Jansen wrote about the failure of Zionist lobbying with Gandhi:

- "His opposition remained consistent over a period of nearly 20 years and remained firm despite skilful and varied applications to him of that combination of pressure and persuasion known as lobbying, of which the Zionists are past masters."
<snip>

Gandhi went back to his initial position by categorically stating that "But in my opinion, they have erred grievously in seeking to impose themselves on Palestine with the aid of America and Britain and now with the aid of naked terrorism... Why should they depend on American money or British arms for forcing themselves on an unwelcome land? Why should they resort to terrorism to make good their forcible landing in Palestine?"

There were an influential number of Jews who thought that force, only force, could ensure the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. They adopted terrorism as the method to achieve their national goal. This policy of subjugation of the Palestinians by Zionist terror was totally rejected by Gandhi in no uncertain terms.
<snip>

Reflections on Zionism From a Dissident Jew http://www.mediamonitors.net/timwise1.html
by Tim Wise
Media Monitors Network, September 6, 2001

...it is difficult to deny that Zionism, in practice if not theory, amounts to ethnic chauvinism, colonial ethnocentrism, and national oppression.
<snip>

"Anti-Semite" will be the other label offered me, despite the fact that Zionism has led to the oppression of Semitic peoples -- namely the mostly Semitic Palestinians -- and is also rooted in a deep antipathy even for Jews. Though Zionism proclaims itself a movement of a strong and proud people, in fact it is an ideology that has been brimming with self-hatred from the beginning. Indeed, early Zionists believed, as a key premise of the movement, that Jews were responsible for the oppression we had faced over the years, and that such oppression was inevitable and impossible to overcome, thus, the need for our own country.

Tim Wise is an activist, writer and lecturer based in Nashville, Tennessee.

[Dardi]

43. You looked up semite

congratulations. Now go look up anti-Semite (in the same sources, if you don't mind ... wouldn't wnt to move those goalposts, now would we?). In spite of the "anti," the words are not direct opposites. For further reference, look up flammable and inflammable, valuable and invaluable, etc. In language, things are not always what they seem.

As for what Zionism is, the OPINIONS of people does not define a term. Gandhi was anti-Zionist? Dr. King was pro-Zionist. So was Ray Charles, for that matter. So is Clinton (both of them), Truman, JFK and Churchill.

Zionism is support for the continued existance and prosperity of the state of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people. Nothing more, nothing less. Feel free to be anti-Zionist, but let's not be coy about what that is.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Okay, that was funny...

For a variety of reasons, and I'm sure you didn't mean it to be, but congrats on doing it...

You said: 'As for what Zionism is, the OPINIONS of people does not define a term.' Then go on to voice the opinion: 'Zionism is support for the continued existance and prosperity of the state of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people.' So I take it that what you originally meant to say was: '...the OPINIONS other than mine do not define a term.'

Feel free to be anti-Zionist, but let's not be coy about what that is.

No, let's not be coy. In the spirit of doing away with coyness, can you fill everyone in on 'what that is'? ;)

Violet...
Smart-arsing away since November 2002...

[Dardi]

50. I gave a definition, not an opinion

Zionism
Main Entry: Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Zionism

Seems that I just about nailed it.

The same definition from other sources:

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861707176

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=92207&dict=CALD

http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=Zionism&matchtype=exact

http://www.bartleby.com/61/86/Z0018600.html

As for what anti-zionism is, it's the opposition to the continued existance and/or prosperity of the state of Israel. Sorry if that wasn't 100% clear.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. The problem with never looking beyond dictionaries...

...is that they do tend to miss out on important things. Originally, political Zionism had the goal of a Jewish homeland (nothing about a modern state or religious communities) anywhere, and Palestine was one of a few suggested sites...


As for what anti-zionism is, it's the opposition to the continued existance and/or prosperity of the state of Israel.

Glad you cleared that up, and that you agree I'm a Zionist. There's some twits floating round the internet who try to equate anti-Zionism (depending on how they choose to define it, and that's usually as unthinking support for Jabba and his gang of thugs) with anti-Semitism. Glad yr not one of them!!

Violet...

[Dardi]

69. I had never suggested that you're an anti-zionist

Hopefully, such vile creatures are rare on DU.

[wuushew]

72. What is wrong with being pro or anti-zioninst?

Is it a dirty word?

[Dardi]

74. See the discussion, above

I object to people who are against the existance and/or well-being of the state of Israel. You may or may not. I don't know.

[wuushew]

75. I am anti-Zionist

As I believe the right to self-determination does not extend to land on which a people did not previously occupy. That being the case the nation of Israel can and should exist as part of a two state solution with the Palestinians establishing a sovereign nation in the entire west bank. The wall must be dismantled, but it could however be re-erected on the Israeli side of the the green line.

[Dardi]

81. How is that anti-zionism?

It seems to me that you're just discussing the precise placement of borders. Since you're for the existance of Israel and, presumably, in favor of its continued prosperity, you would be the very definition of a zionist.

Welcome to the club.

[Larkspur]

76. If Israel was created on Anartica, then I'd be pro-Zionist

but Israel had no right to Palestine because it was already occupied by another group of people.

[Dardi]

86. So you're for the dismantaling of Israel?

Since, as you say, it has no right to exist anywhere but in Antarctica (I can't think of another 100% unoccupied place, can you?).
In effect, you're opposed to Jews having a state anywhere. They should have all just gone home after WWII.

[Larkspur]

178. There was no valid reason to create Isreal in the first place after WW II

That was Ghandi's argument.

The Nazis were defeated and the Jews could have returned or lived within the nations they lived. To found Israel in Palestine would lead to the expulsion of the Palestinians who already lived there, and Israel would be committing the same crimes they accused Europeans of.

Anartica as a place to house the new Israel would have been the only logical choice because there were no humans living there. Palestine was occupied by mostly Palestinians before post-WW II Israel was formed.

Most Jews today don't live in Israel, so the argument that Jews needed their own homeland falls short.

[Freddie Stubbs]

187. There already were many Jews living there at its founding

who do you think defended it when the Arabs invaded the day after Israel declared independance?

[The Magistrate]

204. Gahndi, Ma'am

Suggested the Jews of Europe commit collective suicide as a triumphant moral rebuke to their Nazi tormentors. His view of the question was otherworldly, at best. He was killed in the afterwash of the partitioning of Pakistan out of India, before Israel was established, in any case.

Jews were not accusing Europeans in the wake of World War Two of driving them out of their reidences: the Jews of Europe had been subjected to a calculated industrial effort at extermination by Nazi Germany, that came damned close to success. Your idea that Jewish survivors of this could simply return to their homes is no better founded: the great majority of Jewish survivors came from the pre-war centers of European Jewry, Poland and Ukraine, whether they were most emphatically un-welcome among their former neighbors: many who did attempt to return were killed by mobs.

It is curious that you suggest a proper place for these refugees would have been a spot that would make the Siberia of the Gulag seem a summer resort by compare. You may be unaware of the harsh conditions there, that make any sort of self-sustaining inhabitation an impossibility. The fact is, you have no practical alternative for the course adopted at that time by the Jews themselves, and by the United Nations, in dealing with the situation that existed after the Second World War. Nor does it really seem you are interested in one, even today.

[The Stranger]

200. Your false assumption is that his opposition is to any kind of state.

The opposition appears to be to a racist, bigoted, occupying apartheid state.

[Jim Sagle]

134. Are you anti-American as well?

Do we all have to pack up and move becasue the Indians were here first?

Who cares what you think?

[Larkspur]

184. If you didn't care what I thought, why did you respond to my post?

Native Americans actually welcomed the first Europeans and it was Native Americans that saved the Pilgrims from death during the Pilgrims first winter.

Many Native Americans were willing to live alongside Europeans, but they didn't want to be driven to extinction or shoved into small reservations, most of which could barely sustain them as a tribe. By treating Native Americans as sub-human, Europeans could justify seizing lands the tribes lived on, enslaving them or exterminating them. FYI, Adolph Hitler found the European-American treatment of Native Americans inspiring.

[The Stranger]

201. Perhaps anti-Apartheid, in the vein if South Africa, is more accurate.

South Africa gave up its Apartheid ways and was accepted into the community of nations. That is the historical analog.

[Jim Sagle]

198. Tough.

[RowWellandLive]

107. Unfortunately anti-Zionists

are far from being rare on DU.

[Violet_Crumble]

122. Anti-zionism is vile???

Uh, why?

Violet...

[Chicago Democrat]

157. Two servings of Anti-Zionism for me too please... I'm a secularist.

Secular Nationalist..

"And the Lady of the Lake brought forth Excaliber to signify that I Arthur should be King of the Britons" says Arthur

"Just because some moistened bent lobs a cimitar at you is no basis for a form of Government! Suppose that I were to go around saying that I was Emperor of the World because some aquatic tart gave me some sword?!!" says Dennis

[Larkspur]

Zionism is a form of colonialism and ethnic chauvanism...

and that is why Ghandi opposed it.

Zionism advocated that Israel be a Jewish state and that meant that Israel from its foundation was based upon prejudice and either removal or segregation of non-Jews, including the native Palestinian population that had lived there before the Jewish immigrants. That is another reason why Ghandi opposed it.

Haaretz reported a couple weeks ago that 64% of Israeli Jews favored segregating or removing Israeli Arabs. Looks like Israeli Jews are backwards to being the new generation of apartheid supporters and seggregationists.

[Dardi]

67. NOw you see, THAT's an opinion

Thanks for making a clear distinction.

BTW, are you opposed to the existance of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Qatar, Kuwait and other Muslim countries? Do you think that the creation of Pakistan, for the express purpose of gicing Indian Muslims a nation, was an apartheid horror?

[Larkspur]

80. What is Apartheid?

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861586159/apartheid.html

segregated political system: a political system in South Africa from 1948 to the early 1990s that separated the different peoples living there and gave particular privileges to those of European origin

Apartheid evolved from colonialism and it's purpose is for the ruling elite, usually descendets of colonists, to continue subjucating the native population. The use of brutal methods is accepted by the ruling elite to protect their priveldged status.

Both Archbishop Tutu and Nelson Mandela of South Africa, both victims of South African apartheid, have labeled Israel's policies against the Palestinians "apartheid." Since Palestinians are the native population being brutalized by Israel, then I don't see where Palestinians are practicing apartheid against Jews.

Wanting ones own country, especially if the native population of the region desire it, is not a form of apartheid. It is most often called Independence.

[Dardi]

Again

Are you opposed to all of the countries listed? In how many of them can Jews have political power? In how many of them can Jews own property or conduct business freely? In how many of them can women hold political office or even vote? How many of them allow for gay rights?

In Israel, Arab (Palestinian) Israelis vote, conduct business, hold political office, own property and can be openly gay, if they are so inclined. Same goes for Israel's Christian population. Arabs, Christians and Jews go to the same hospitals and are welcome in the same stores and restaurants. Is that the way it was in South Africa? Is that the way it is in any of the countries I listed? Pakistan was recently created expressly for Muslims as a Muslim nation. Non-Muslims who had lived there for generations were displaced (if they were lucky). Do you oppose Pakistan's continued existance? Being anti-Israel isn't anti-Semitic. Being anti-Israel while willfully ignoring far worse transgressions on a much larger scale by scores of other nations is.

[Violet_Crumble]

128. There's no apartheid in the Occupied Territories??

While it's correct that there's no apartheid inside Israel, there definately is when it comes to the Occupied Territories, or are you going to try and dispute that?

Violet...

[Larkspur]

179. There you go again

1) You try to diffuse the fact that Israel is committing major human rights violations by pointing to other Arab nations, whose founding was based upon European colonial rule, Cold War politics, and US foreign policy that favors authoritarian rule in those countries.

To answer your question, Israel is a lot like those authoritarian Arab countries. Both practice brutal oppression against people within their borders or in occupied territories. Israel, being a Jewish state, is no different than a Muslim state, the only difference is that the Arab nations were mostly occupied by native Muslims anyway, but Israel is an artificial country created by the UN per US pressure and settled by foreigners from Europe.

2) You confuse Apartheid or malicious and brutal seggregation with colonialism and native peoples' desire to rule themselves. Israel practices apartheid against the Palestinians. There is not doubt. Both Nelson Mandela and Archbisop Tutu, who suffered under South Africa apartheid, agree that Israel is committing grave suffering and injustices against the Palestinians just like what they experienced in South Africa under Apartheid.

3) Would I like those authoritarian Arab nations to democratize? Yes and there is nothing within Islam that opposes democracy. Iran was a democracy in 1953, until the US overthrew that government and installed a tyrant, the Shah of Iran. What aborts democracy in this nations is often foreign intervention that favors local strongman to rule as proxies for them.

[IA_Seth]

197. Fair Comparison?

You said:

"Are you opposed to all of the countries listed? In how many of them can Jews have political power? In how many of them can Jews own property or conduct business freely? In how many of them can women hold political office or even vote? How many of them allow for gay rights?"

Ok, and may I add, how many of them can rely on our veto power over EVERY resolution passed that is not in their favor? How many of them can rely on the amount of foreign aid given to Israel? How many of them can flaunt UN resolutions for YEARS and not have any consequences? How many of them are counted as close allies in the same light as Israel? How many of them have nuclear weapons but will not sign any treaties against such weapons?

Let's not put up a facade here of Israel being a-ok.

[Jim Sagle]

199. Israel's a-ok by me.

:thumbsup:

YMMV.

[Classical_Liberal]

140. Well Pakistan was a result of the same movement that created

Israel and has created roughly the same problems. Along with Israel it is the most likely hotspot for the next exchange of nukes. Frankly, I would have voted against its creation as well. So would Gandhi. Having said that, both countries exist, as does the US despite it's native inhabitants, and you can't go back.

However, a two state solution is impossible if the green line is not the basis for negotiations so I fail to see why anyone thinks this platform is anything but a complete mess, and a cave in to a right wing group that will vote repuke anyway. Likudnik Jews have been lost since Reagan.

[Larkspur]

54. Revisionist Zionism is the extreme terrorist version of Zionism and

advocates removing all non-Jews from Palestine to create a Jewish state. Non-Jews and Jews who don't meet whatever criteria Revisionist Zionists say a Jew is are not welcome in the new Israel, per them. Jews are also fighting amongst themselves on who a Jew is.

I find it laughable that narrow-minded people can't accept the fact that anti-semitic means more than just anti-Jew. The dictionary definition http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anti-Semite agrees with me --

an·ti-Sem·ite

n. One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

n. Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews. -- An`ti-Sem\"ite, n. -- An`ti-Sem*it\"ic, a.

adj : discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion n : someone who hates and would persecute Jews

I've never denied that anti-Semitic did not include being against Jews. I went to the root of the word "Semitic" and found that it had broader connotations than what narrow-minded people use it for.

[The Magistrate]

57. But the Root Of The Word Anti-Semite, Ma'am

Is in nineteenth century European reactiobary politics, where the term was coined specifically to indicate opposition to Jewish influence and presence in national life, and by persons who thought such opposition an unreservedly good thing. The word Semite was at the time much used as a polite euphemism for Jew, as Ethiope and other African allusions were used for Negro, direct reference to the lesser breeds being considered a breach of manners. the people who wished to promoye action against Jews in national life wanted their terminology to be respectable as possible....

"It ain't what you know, it's what you know that ain't so."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Larkspur]

61. Then it's time to expand the definition of anti-Semitism to include

all Semitic people because that is what Semite is. Just becaue you want to rely upon 19th century definitions doesn't mean that the word should remain with that definition. English is a living language and that means that new words, new definitions, or expanded definitions of old words can appear.

[Jim Sagle]

84. So you're going to tell us when the dictionary's wrong? LOL.

[Larkspur]

180. I didn't say the dictionary is wrong. I said it supported my definition

of semite and therefore anti-semite.

[The Stranger]

202. I'll do it: The dictionary's wrong. There.

[The Magistrate]

90. Of Course The Language Lives, Ma'am

As does the urge of persons to distort it for political gain. Even you, if pressed, would likely admit that a hate for Jews is distinct from a hate for Arabs, or Phonecians. Therefore, a word with a distinct and longstanding meaning of hate for Jews needs no expanding into signifying hate for these other groups. This is particularly so since a war between Jews and Arabs features so prominently in political discourse. It would be like saying during the Great War that an expression signifying hatred for Prussians ought also to include Englishmen, since both groups can be regarded as Germanic peoples. The reason attempting to blur the meaning of Anti-Semite is so popular among a certain stripe of radical opponent of Israel is simple: the vehemence of the stand taken by them often echoes the expression of racialists on the same subject, and opens them to attack as fellow travellers with such retrograde elements, due to the interchangeability of the expressions employed. They find it embarrassing, and rather than alter their behavior in consequence, prefer to attempt to alter the terms the language makes available to describe it.

"When I use a word, it means what I say it means."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Larkspur]

183. I'm not embarrased to rebuke Israel. I do so justly.

You wrote

The reason attempting to blur the meaning of Anti-Semite is so popular among a certain stripe of radical opponent of Israel is simple: the vehemence of the stand taken by them often echoes the expression of racialists on the same subject, and opens them to attack as fellow travellers with such retrograde elements, due to the interchangeability of the expressions employed. They find it embarrassing, and rather than alter their behavior in consequence, prefer to attempt to alter the terms the language makes available to describe it.

And some Jews, especially those defending Israel's apartheid policies, use the label "anti-Semitism" as a political weapon to silence dissent and extort favors unjustly.

I think it's long past time to make anti-Semitism mean what it's suppose to mean -- prejudice against the Semitic peoples, both Jews and non-Jews of Semitic origins -- because the Nazi Holocaust did not make Jews immume to prejudice, and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and those who protest that treatment is proof of it.

I'm not anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic. As I've said, my horse is cared for by a Jewish stable owner and I pamper his pet pig. He, not me, owns the land and stable were my horse is, and he and I are friends, even if we disagree on Israel.

I have no prejudice against Jews per se, but I do oppose Israel's apartheid policies against the Palestinians. What I strongly object to is Israel's abuse of power over the Palestinians, not the fact that they are Jews. So I'm proudly anti-Israel but I'm not anti-Jewish. There are Jews who opposed Israel's apartheid policies, you know.

I also object to the Abrahamic god because it's a god of male supremacy, but that doesn't make me anti-Jewish or as you would have it, anti-semitic.

If you say opposing Israel is a sign of anti-semitism or anti-Jews, then the ancient Israelite prophets were also anti-semitic or anti-Jews because they spoke out publicly against the abuse of power by Israel's political leaders of their era.

[The Magistrate]

203. Anti-Semite, Ma'am

Means still what it was meant to mean by the people who coined it: hate for Jews. This has long been a staple of reactionary political movements, and feeds off centuries of Christian tradition in the West. Some opponents of Israel have taken up these same reactionary vocabularies in their eagerness to somehow make a dent in the thing they oppose, because an appeal to old prejudice is a thing not easily forgone in a propaganda battle: it guarantees at least some audience, if not a particularly savory one, for the effort.

You will be absolutely unable to cite any words of mine stating opposition to Israeli actions is Anti-Semitic, only that unquestionably some of the opposition to Israel is indeed rooted in Anti-Semitism, and that some of the propagandas made in furtherance of that opposition appeal, whether conciously or not, to traditional Anti-Semitic beliefs. Where this is unconcious, it ought to be remedied by understanding; where it is concious, it deserves denunciation for what it is, an appeal to reactionary bigotry of the blackest sort, unbecoming to anyone who claims to espouse left and progressive ideals.

It is doubtless true that there are elements of ethnic and religious bigotry involved in some Israeli actions towards Arab Palestinians. This is not only an unexceptionable statement, it is an unimportant one. These are the common failings of humankind, that no group of people does not display through many of the individuals within it. There is a good deal of ethnic and religious bigotry involved in some Arab Palestinian actions towards Israelis: nothing in history or life today has operated to make Arab Palestinian Moslems and Christians immune to bigotry. If you are going to attempt to choose sides by reacting against any display of bigotry by representatives of one, you will have no choice but a strict and studied neutrality in almost any question involving human beings.

"When faced with two conflicting stories, chose the one which shows humans at their worst."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Jim Sagle]

22. No I'm not, and no it isn't.

[Classical_Liberal]

139. That is what likudnik zionism is. There are many tolerant

zionist. Most who advocated the two state solution are zionists too. Mr. Sagle is a likudnik. He loves the idea of sticking the Palestinians in Bantustans. He claims to support two states, but every move to kill the two state solution is applauded.

[funnymanpants]

32. Very articulate response

Do you know that every human rights group who has looked at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has found Irael guilty of war crimes and "willful killing and torture?"

[Cassandra]

109. And what did they find...

when they turned to look at the Palestinians? Suicide/homicide bombings of civilians perhaps? Torture and racketeering among their own? Rampant corruption and a complete unwillingness to run a state?

[Violet_Crumble]

124. How does that make what Israel does right?

Or are you a proponent of the two wrongs make a right school of thought?


Violet...

[neverborn]

193. Do you do anything but cheer on Israel on this board?

[Dhalgren]

10. You know,

I heard about this neocon/freeper plot to have a disruptor go into the news and find items that might cause disruption amonst DUers and then post away. Always maintaining his/her innocense, that "hey it was a news item and I was just posting!" Hmmmm... That being said, it makes no difference what Kerry or the Democratic Convention espouses - everyone with a modicum of intelligence and a single thread of patriotism left in their bones will vote against George "Caligula" Bush in Nov. So divisiveness won't really work this time around. The devil in the WH is far worse than any demon trying to get in.

[Dardi]

15. Are you sure

it wasn't a Skull and Bones-PNAC-AIPAC plot? It's so hard to keep track.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dardi]

19. Really?

It seems that there are quite a few smartasses here who have been around for years. They're some of the best posters here.

[NNN0LHI]

27. Really. Ain't you got some money to raise for Nader or something? n/t

[Dardi]

29. Nader?

Nader ain't my bag, baby. He's got a point about the problems with a two party system but, for now, his cause seems quixotic and he won't be getting any money from me.

[RowWellandLive]

111. So someone is a "smart ass"

if they disagree with you?

[NNN0LHI]

16. I know. The mods have been weeding them out pretty good too n/t

[David__77]

18. I would support not addressing settlement specifics.

Too often, the US pokes its nose where it doesn't belong. I think the countries of the region must settle this matter principally. Palestinians have legitimate national rights and there are legitimate concerns on the part of the Jewish citizens of the State of Israel.

While the platform statements may be true in many regards, I still think that it's best not to be this specific. The boundaries, if any, should be mutually determined by those parties whose sovereignty and national rights are effected.

[funnymanpants]

33. That is a cop out

The Israelis are in clear violation of many international laws, including security coucil resolutions. The US gives Israel 5 billion dollars a year. Just after the latest intifadah broke out, Amnesty International asked the US not to provide Israel with Apache hellicopters, which Israel uses to mow down Palestinians.

The US provided Israel with a record number.

The utter contempt the US has shown towards Israel is one of the main problems in the middle east. Real leadership means a president will address this issue.

Instead, Kerry choses to support the far-right in Israel, which has in its cabinett a party that advocates ethnic cleansing.

Kerry's stance towards Israel will certainly mean oppression for the Palestinians. It will also mean more insecurity for the US.

[riverwalker]

20. ummmmm o.k.

thanks JTA for the advice on what American election issues should be. We'll file it right here--> :hurts:

[Dardi]

23. How is the JTA giving advice

rather than reporting on what the proposed platform is? Does the fact that the story was reported by JTA change the substance of the Democratic Party platform? Will you feel better when it's printed in the Washington Post or another non-Jewish publication?

[riverwalker]

113. the Washington post is "non-Jewish"??

are the Buddhists going to hand us a list of demands too? How about the Hindus? Is Israel a religion, a race, or a nation?
Make up your mind, because it seems to change with the situation. When will Nepal give us their demands of our platform? What does Sweden demand the Democrats swear allegiance to? Can we have just ONE, just ONE freakin' election in my lifetime, that does NOT put Israels "wants" before ours, JUST ONE?

[Dardi]

118. Are you saying that the Washington Post is a Jewish publication??

Seriously? Israel is a nation. Judaism is a religion. Jews are a religious group, an ethnic group and a cultural group. Israelis are a nationality that includes numerous religious, ethnic, racial and cultural groups. I hope this helps with your language difficulties.

Now, where did the JTA list any demands? In fact, where did anyone issue demands to anyone.

Oh those insidious, demanding Jews, always infringing on your democracy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. You recently posted another article from this website...

...and this article appears to be just as dishonest as the other one.

So, do you know the articles are being dishonest before you post them, or are you really that naive?

[Dardi]

24. How is this article in any way dishonest?

And I posted this after the link in the first post went down and I went to check on it (and saw this article). Again, how is this article dishonest?

[Dardi]

41. Crickets chirping ...

chirp - chirp

[Violet_Crumble]

48. While yr chirping...

Here's something to while away yr time with. I love quizzes!

http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz/

;)

Violet...

[Dardi]

52. Rather a dated quiz, don't you think?

I do believe that it was discussed to death on Matthew Yglasias' site some time back.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Does the date really matter?

I'm sorry, but is there some expiry date on statements supporting genocide, like those made on LGF?

Violet...

[Dardi]

58. Just doesn't seem particularly timely

and not even remotely relevant to the current thread. You want to discuss LGF? Go there to do it.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. Oh, it did to me...

Anyway, no need for the tinge of hostility. I was merely welcoming a new DUer by giving you an interesting quiz to do while you patiently chirped in waiting. Not really sure why you think that to discuss any other site or source on the internet that we must go there to do it. Not really fond of hanging out in racist freeper cesspools like FR and LGF :)


Violet...

[Dardi]

64. Yeah, it's a long wait

And no answer seems forthcoming. Disappointing. Anyway, saw the "LGF Watch" link on your site. For someone who doesn't like to hang out there, you sure do seem to have it on the brain. No, you don't have to go there to discuss it but could you at least start a new thread? It's really rather off-topic for this one. As for the hostility, I assure you that it's all in your mind.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Tell me about it...

I'm still waiting for you to answer post #49...

I tend to take an interest in helping to expose racist right-wing poison, which is what LGF is, wouldn't you agree? As for 'have it on the brain', I assure you that it's all in your mind...

Violet...

[Classical_Liberal]

141. Jim Sagle says that all the time

hmm?

[Freddie Stubbs]

149. It is dishonest becasue

does not endorse the far left's opinion on this issue.

[Violet_Crumble]

169. I'm curious...

What is the far left's opinion on this issue?

Violet...

[Freddie Stubbs]

171. They believe that

the Palastinians are oppressed by a terrorists state called Israel.

[quaoar]

25. Why is it

That whenever the subject of American relations with Israel comes up, the mention of any criticism of Israeli policy brings a charge from someone that the criticism is anti-Semitic?

And I'm not singling ou this board. It seems to happen everywhere.

Is it possible anymore to criticize Israeli policy without being accused of anti-Semitism?

[Dardi]

26. I don't know how to answer your question

but I'll note that no one in this thread has been accused of being anti-Semitic (though one person was asked if they were "anti-arab-Semitic," whatever that is).

[quaoar]

28. Well

The anti-Arab-Semitic thing was a new twist for me. I'm used to chatboard debates in which the hurled accusations are of the more standard, "You must be anti-Semitic" variety.

The discussion here deviated from the platform and its positions on Israel into anti-Arab-Smitism, the "Abrahamic god," etc. My question was more generalized. I'm not singling out this thread. But this topic always seems to draw that accusation eventually.

[The Magistrate]

47. Actually, Sir

If you review the discussion above, the question of Anti-Semitism arose when a pair of persons critical of Israel declared they would not be intimidated by being called Anti-Semites. No one had called them any such thing. This is a very common ploy, by which such persons seek to discredit anyone who disagrees with their staples of boiler-plate hysteria on the subject.

"You can't cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Ah, I see...

So it very rarely or never happens that folk who claim they are supporters of Israel will accuse others who don't share that same blind support of the Israeli govt of being anti-Semitic, whether it's outright accusations, or clumsily veiled insinuations? Because, that is complete and utter bullshit. You've been around here long enough to have seen how some have behaved in another forum here, and to know some of the people those accusations and insinuations have been thrown at..

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

92. It Does Happen, Ma'am

But it had not happened in the opening stages of this discussion. Here, one person said that Mr. Moore probably did not mention Israel in his recent film so he would not be called an Anti-Semite, and another boldly proclaimed she was not afraid to be called an Anti-Semite by pro-Israel thugs. That is what introduced the word into the discussion of the Democratic party platform. It is a common gambit of radical opponents of Israel, to claim that they are being called Anti-Semites, when no such charge has actually yet been levelled; it is at least as common, if not more common, than actual charges of Anti-Semitism. It has several attractions: it promotes a delicious sense of victimization, which some people find an enjoyable thrill; it serves to demonize the opposition they encounter, since many times people will not look to see whether the charge actually has been made, but take it on the word of the person who howled it is present without investigation; and, it tends to turn the discussion into such a cul de sac as this, which, enjoyable as it may be, distracts from the point actually at hand, and thus serves to disguise the frequently poor quality of the critique presented against such normal political developments as a plank in a Party platform that both caters to a particular constituency, and reflects the sentiments of a majority of the voters in an up-coming contest.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Violet_Crumble]

127. It happens a hell of a lot...

See, I have been called anti-Semitic elsewhere at DU (and now it's been strongly implied in some more recent posts in this thread). I didn't realise you saw me as a 'radical opponent of Israel'. Thanks, I guess. Lucky I didn't mention my Jewish ancestry, lest I have the 'in other words, some of my best friends are Jews' line thrown at me, cause after all, isn't that nothing more than a veiled accusation of anti-Semitism?

Glad you find this cul de sac enjoyable. I've found it rather lame, but it's a boring and carless Saturday afternoon, and the only thing I've learnt from it is that there are some people who display an appalling double standard when it comes to picking up on bigotry (eg, the slighest percieved whiff of what may be anti-Semitism is jumped all over, but endless excuses are made as to why other forms of bigotry aren't really bigotry), and that there are some sad sacks who get a buzz out of trying to 'draw people out' by trying to put words in their mouths. I've got zero respect for those sort of folk, and when they bleat away about their favoured form of bigotry, they may as well be howling at the moon, for all the attention and respect I give them...

Violet...

[RowWellandLive]

120. Is there any other country

that you scrutinize and criticize with as much vehemence and regularity as you do Israel? There are major human rights violations going on all over the globe. Where's your outrage? Is Israel the worst of the worst? Would you rather live personally, or have your daughter live in an Islamic state or Israel? Would you rather be openly gay in Israel or an Arab country? Would you rather be on trial for a petty crime like shoplifting in Israel or an Arab country where they might cut your hand off? Would you rather your daughter be raped in Israel where they would punish the offender or an Arab nation where honor killings are common and tolerated?

I don't expect "blind" support of Israel. What I do reject is this ridiculous double standard that is applied. If it doesn't come from anti-Semitism I am at a loss to explain where it's roots are.

The energy spent attacking Israel is simply disproportionate. As a Jew I feel that I am able to discern anti-Semitism better then a non Jew and our opinions on the subject should carry some weight. In the same way that if an African-American detects racism in an area where I might not have originally seem it, I will give his/her views a sincere hearing and usually defer to those affected since they know best. The Jewish voice here is often derided and dismissed. We are the ones that can best evaluate what is anti-Semetic. The double standard that Israel is held to stinks of it. Take a poll of Jews.

[Violet_Crumble]

125. Yeah, my own...

I guess that makes me anti-Australian, does it?

What double standards? Tell you what. You trot off and find me a state that is doing what Israel is doing, come back and show me where I support what that state's doing, and you can claim that I hold a double-standard and it may come from anti-Semitism. I won't hold my breath waiting on that one...

Sorry, but criticism of Israel for the occupation is NOT attacking Israel. This may come as a shock, but people can criticise a country for its actions and not be attacking it. Or do you think that criticising Bush is Attacking The US?

If someone who's Jewish tries to tell someone that criticism of the policy of a state is anti-Semitic, then they're talking out of their arse, and it doesn't matter what they are. It's like some feminists who turn everything into sexism and misogyny. Some people who label themselves as 'supporters of Israel' (that should really read 'blindly supporting EVERYTHING Israel does) do the same thing. Having been at DU a long time, there doesn't seem to be a 'Jewish voice' here, because Jewish DUers, the same as every other group, have a range of diverse views on the issue..


Violet...

[RowWellandLive]

129. I guess I have missed

your vehement, unrelenting criticisms of Australia. I have no doubt that you disagree with some/many of their policies, but I'd be very surprised if the frequency and ferocity of that criticism was any where near your devotion to demeaning the tiny Jewish state of Israel.

What Israel does in self defense is no where close to the human rights atrocities going on in Islamic and other nations. I've pointed out examples in many of my previous posts. Lack of Human rights, rigged and brutal "justice" systems, honor killings, no tolerance for gays, women that cannot vote, work, drive, expose their faces, etc., no freedom of religious expressions, and so on.

You can criticize Israel because they are certainly not perfect. However, if it is your assertion that "no one is doing what Israel does" and therefore no country is as bad I find that to be beyond the pale of rational thought. Israel's problems do not compare to the human rights abuse taking place in Arab, African, and countries like North Korea and China. You have selective and disproportunate outrage.

I do not support everything Israel does, and to make that a standard is insulting. I don't support everything any nation does. However, I do believe at their very worst they are heads and shoulders above the real human rights violators that exist.

Of course Jews, even Jewish Duers have a range of opinions on the subject of Israel and anti-Semitism. Heck, there are sell outs in every group, (see Clarence Thomas). It is my firm belief that the majority of Jews familiar with your posts and the disproportionate vehemence in which you criticize/attack Israel, would find anti Senitisn alive and thriving. I think I speak for Jews way better then yourself. I'd suggest taking a poll but I believe that most self respecting Jews have long since fled places like DU and found comfort among the Democratic party establishment that echoes my view and not yours. The day they agree with you is the day that Jews become Republicans in vast numbers.

[Violet_Crumble]

130. You have...

Might have something to do with the fact that most of us realise DU is only a tiny part of our world, and that the great part of my criticism is done in the real world....

Uh-huh. So legitimate criticism of Israel is, according to you, 'devotion to demeaning the tiny Jewish state of Israel'. Thanks for filling me in on that. I take it that with yr abhorrence of any double-standards, you also feel the same way about any criticism of US policy?

How on earth does pointing out that someone else is doing something bad make what Israel is doing right? Care to explain that one to me?

Okay, if you don't support everything Israel does, it should be easy to give a few examples of what you haven't supported. And then you could explain why it's okay for you to make those criticisms, but not other people...

Heck, anyone who's Jewish and disagrees with you is a sell out? How about you stop making assumptions about whether other people are Jewish or not (it's none of yr business) and then telling them that yr the Voice Of All Jews. Opposing human rights violations and supporting the Palestinian people in their quest for a state and an end to the oppression they live under may well make some folk, no matter who or what they are, want to scuttle off away from DU, but if they have such a severe lack of empathy for other humans, then DU isn't the place for them...

Violet...

[wuushew]

132. Is it unreasonable to expect a higher standard from Israel?

Given the massive support the United States has historically and to this day continues to give to Israel, it as a nation should figure prominently in U.S. foreign affairs. I certainly expect a high standard for the United States but alas we continue to limit reproductive rights, practice capital punishment and reward the rich and powerful. Israel has a strong functioning goverment that is quite able to read and execute dictates of international law.

You seem to preaching a concept of universal morality that does not take into consideration differences of civilizations or ethical relativism. Is Afghanistan much different from how people were treated in Medieval Europe or early American expansionism which wiped out native peoples? The practices of which you criticize the Middle East and other parts of the world are for the most part limited to the cultures of those peoples. If you seek to spread your "western" view of morality how do you expect to accomplish this? In the nineteenth century this carried the odious label of white man's burden, the formula which has been recently and disastrously carried out in Iraq.

The other way to bridge gaps in cultures is by economic development which in turn raises educational and wealth equalities. This second approach is a long term approach and should measured in decades not the short sited approach that most of the public has come accustomed to. Both Saddam and the Shah were able to measurably westernize and secularize their countries through economic progress. Unfortunately being American pawns in the great chess game that was the Cold War ultimately sewed the seeds of despair in those countries. With the boogie man of the Soviet Union gone it is my hope that we have entered an era of more altruistic foreign policy. One's hopes must not be raised too high however as Serbia, Gulf War I-II and other various conflicts have shown that national and economic interests continue to sideline closer and more pressing humanitarian concerns(Haiti,Sudan,Ivory Coast?) Israel in their domination of the Palestinians is extending a negative influence on a foreign people. There is no lack of outrage for foreign abuse in other parts of the world if you would take the time to read throughly all the various news threads posted to this site. However given the United States' inherent goals of reducing terrorism,anti-Americanism/western-ism and maintaining economic stability for the economies of the entire world it is not unreasonable to apply considerable effort in this endeavor. As you can see their appears to be a conflict of interest if one was either to wholy support the best interests of either the United States or the best interests of Israel. There exists an agency conflict brough about by the complexities and corruption of the American political system.

A prosperous and economically viable nation should be able to accomplish a certain level of compliance with international law. Many of Israel's neighbors although possessing oil wealth are corrupt monarchies who struggle to keep stable conditions in order that the precious petroleum continues to flow. Given that the Israeli/Palestine conflict is central in the minds of many of the citizens of the Middle East why is it not in our interest to play what to everyone including the Arabs is a even handed approach to the negotiating peace in the region. If you consider Additionally the state of Israel is a rogue nuclear power that has the audacity to lecture other Middle Eastern nations.

[Jim Sagle]

189. Well said!

[Cassandra]

114. You have the loveliest collection of aphorisms, Sir.

I really enjoy them. :-)

[Chicago Democrat]

159. I am OUTRAGED by the OUTRAGE!!!

I have the "Boiled Hysteria" please with some "anti-Zionism" and a double helping of blase collusion please. Is Anti-Semites some kind of bug poision or anti-itch cream?

[IA_Seth]

36. Hallelujah

I have made clear my feelings on this article and the US's position, but what you reference here is something that has bugged me since day one of posting to message boards.

And for the record:

Main Entry: Sem·ite
Pronunciation: 'se-"mIt, esp British 'sE-"mIt
Function: noun
Etymology: French sémite, from Semitic Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek SEm, from Hebrew ShEm
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

Yeah yeah, I know anti-semitic has a connotation of meaning anti-jewish, but the denotation is clear above.

[Dardi]

45. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick

anti-Semitic does NOT have a "connotation" of meaning anti-Jewish. That's what it means. Specifically, exclusively, explicitly. It does not mean "being against Semites." It means "being against Jews."

Here are some links for the research-impaired:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=anti-semite

http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/ahdsearch?search_type=enty&query=anti-semite&db=ahd

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/a/a0349000.html

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=3203&dict=CALD

http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=anti-Semite&matchtype=exact

http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/anti-Semite

http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=anti-semite

There, I hope that clarifies things a bit.

[RowWellandLive]

126. Um what's your point??

The use of the term Anti-Semitism has become to mean being anti-Jewish. It's called common vernacular. The term anti Semetic is no longer recognized to refer to Arabs, although they are technically Semites. It has evolved from common usage to refer to only Jews. But I think you know that.

Sorry that the common day understood usage bugs you so much. Would you prefer that we start a movement to coin a new term such as anti-Judaism. Would that bug you less?

The fact that this term sticks in your craw so much is quite telling. Do you not recognize that there is a vast anti-Jewish sentiment worldwide? Or is your complaint merely with the use of the term and not with the fact that it exists?

Considering that my people, the Jews, are subjected to prejudice, intolerance, and hatred world wide, I find it disturbing that you voice your complaint against the term used with no mention of the sentiment involved. Speaks volumes.

[RowWellandLive]

115. I'll tell you why

Those that criticize Israel tend to have a double standard when it comes to Arab (and other) nations. Jews are not welcome or free in Arab countries, women are second class citizens whose lives are often in jeopardy (honor killings), there is no tolerance for Gays, the "justice system" is often brutal, Human Rights barely exist, etc.

Tiny Israel surrounded by enemies is scrutinized, criticized, and resented with a vehemence while far worse abuses in Arab countries go largely ignored. I'd rather be an Arab living in Israel then a Jew in an Islamic Arab state. How about you? If you're not sure I can connect you with my Iraqi Jewish friend whose land and property was stolen and whose daughter was stoned to death. Just for being Jewish. Want her number?

The double standard is glaring and if not attributed to anti-Semitism, then where does it come from?

[Charles19]

30. Others?

Is there any other ethnic group on Earth the Democratic Party does this kind of thing for?

[newyawker99]

31. Hi Charles19!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[funnymanpants]

34. Kerry is pandering

See the article titled "Kerry Campaign releases Middle East policy seemingly drafted in Tel"

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2864.shtml

"The Forward, a Jewish weekly newspaper published in New York, reported on June 25th that: Kerry's campaign is building national and state Jewish leadership teams "comprised of prominent national and local leaders in our communities," Kerry's senior adviser on Middle East and Jewish affairs, Jay Footlik, writes in a letter to supporters. The groups will act as surrogates for the campaign at local events and debates. Attached to Footlik's letter is a document titled "John Kerry: Strengthening Israel's Security and Bolstering the U.S.-Israel Special Relationship," which Footlik asks recipients to e-mail "to friends and neighbors, to synagogues, federations, youth groups, sisterhood and brotherhood groups, study groups, to your personal and professional networks."

[Dardi]

40. Ah, Electronic Intifada

The publication for people who really miss Der Stürmer.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Care to point out where they're the same?

I'm assuming you actually haven't ever seen what used to be published in Der Sturmer, because to imply that EI and it are the same is to make a complete joke of the vile poison that was Der Sturmer...

Violet..

[funnymanpants]

62. Very ignorant

Of course, you won't provide any facts for your claim. This is bashing worthy of a freeper.

The entire article is simply a quote from a press release. There are probalby about 20 words from the writer himself.

[Dardi]

65. You're not calling me a freeper, are you?

It's not clear.

[funnymanpants]

71. Let me repeat: you are ignorant

Earlier you said that you would never call those who disagree with the policies of Israel anti-semetic. No. Instead, you call them Nazis.

How is EI like Der Sturmer? Please tell me. Do you have any facts besides name calling?

[Dardi]

66. Delete - Dupe

.

[quaoar]

73. I'd still like to know

Why any discussion of Israeli policy seems to draw an accusation of anti-Semitism -- regardless of the dictionary definition of the term or how it may or may not have been used on this thread.

It's a general question.

[funnymanpants]

78. Just look at Dardi's responses

You see, I challenged him/her by posting an atricle. Rather than argue on the merits of the article (which was simply a press release--it was hard for it to be biased), Dardi calls the site Der Sturmer--a reference to a Nazi publication.

See, it is much easier to throw mud and name call when you are losing the arguemnt. It is what Limbaugh and O'reilley do. Once you can bring down the argument to the level of mud slinging, you have a better change at winning it.

[Dardi]

79. Here's why

At some point, being openly anti-semitic became politically and socially unfashionable. Nevertheless, anti-Semitism has not waned nearly as much as the expression of it. Needing an outlet, people who wished to express anti-Semitic sentiments began couching their opinion as "anti-zionist" or "anti-Israel" and were quick to point out that, in fact, they were not anti-Semitic and that some of their very best friends were Jews (or words to that effect). The problem is that, as a natural reaction to this coded speech, people who are sensitive to anti-Semitism began suspecting those who spoke against Israel or Israeli interests of anti-Semnitism, whether or not they were, in fact, anti-Semitic or not (some were, some weren't). There's the dilemma. Dishonesty from one camp leads to suspicion in the other and everybody gets dirty. The problem isn't going away, either. Anti-semites continue to couch their hatred in the false language of "anti-Israel" or "anti-Zionism" or what have you (see, e.g., Billy McKinney) and those sensitive to anti-Semitism continue to jump the gun ar mistakenly label those who disagree with them as anti-Semites (on the other hand, sometimes they are right).

[funnymanpants]

83. Yes, like calling someone a Nazi

As you did a few posts earlier. You still have provided any facts to either of my arguments.

Regarding this above argument: yes, some anti-semites do couch their hatred in so called anti-Isael policies.

However, at the same time, the anti-semite argument is aggresively pushed by the far-right in Israel. For example, take a look at the study done in Europe on anti-semitism. The first study had to be thrown out because it counted as anti-semetic acts such as displaying a Palestinian flag. This was not a case of somone jumping the gun; this was an effort to conflate anti-semitism with just criticism against Israel's policies.

[Dardi]

85. I called you a Nazi??

And here I thought I was criticizing an anti-Israel publication by comparing it to a Nazi rag. I certainly didn't mean to call any DUer a Nazi.

[funnymanpants]

87. Yes you did

Let me quote from post 41:

"Ah, Electronic Intifada The publication for people who really miss Der Stürmer."

Since I read Electronic Intifada, I must also miss Der Sturmer.

Nor is the web-site anti-Israel. We have asked you to provide facts why you think so, but you haven't.

The website is pro-Palestinian. Does this automatically eqate with anti-Israel in your mind? How is it that prominent Israelis are featured on it? Are they also anti-israel?

Are they anti-Israel in the same way that Democrats are unpatriotic for being against the Iraq war or simply disagreeing with Bush's polcicies?

Is it anti-Israel to demand that Israel obey international law?

Is it anti-Israel to demand that the IDF stop bulldozing Palestinian houes and stop killing Palestinian children? To demand that Israel stop confiscating Palestiniian land and uprooting olive trees?

[Dardi]

88. As I have already said

My intention was to criticize EI, not call anyone a Nazi. And yes, EI is anti-Israel insofar as wherever Israeli interests and Palestinian interests fail to coincide, EI is expressly against whatever the Israeli interests happen to be. However, after giving it a more careful look, I must retract my earlier statement. It is not a hate filled rag and not at all like Der Sturmer.

[funnymanpants]

162. Once again, you are evasive

I pointed out that many Israelis are featured on EI. So how can they be anti-Israel? I posted a number of questions.

You responded with the vague "wherever Israeli interests adn Palestinian interests fail to coincide." Well, how is it Israel's interest to increase settlements? That will certainly not bring it security.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. I'd say non-existent...

...which is why 'she' can't answer questions. Check the profile. I hope 'she' enjoyed the quiz I posted for her to use to while away some time - I absolutely Blitzed it! *snort*

Violet...

[quaoar]

97. Thanks

That was a reasonable reply.

Of course, when people who are hyper-sensitive to anti-Semitism lash out and accuse everyone who criticizes Israel of being anti-Semitic they serve only to polarize and debase the argument.

[Dardi]

98. No problem

Of course, you are right. Unfortunately, with genuine anti-Semitism sharply on the rise, I don't see sensitivity to the perception of anti-Semitism waning any time soon.

[Classical_Liberal]

142. Billy McKinney is an out in the open antisemite.

so what is your point?

[Freddie Stubbs]

186. And the voters of his district took care of him

back in 2002.

[bex]

77. Zionism is racism, period.

"...The Zionist commitment to racial purity has led to expressions of bigotry at the highest levels of Israeli society that would inspire outrage in respectable circles in the U.S. An Israeli company has required thousands of Chinese workers to sign a contract promising not to have sex with Israelis. A company spokesman said there was nothing illegal about the requirement. Israeli law forbids the marriage of a Jew with a non-Jew. (Associated Press, December 23, 2003)..."
http://www.counterpunch.org/ignatiev06172004.html

[funnymanpants]

82. Yes, but didn't you know there is no racism

in Israel?

Dardi says so!

<sarcasm/>

(I really hate that sarcsm tag, but I also hate to be misunderstood!)

Beware though. When I quoted an article from Electronic Intifidah, , I was accused of being a Nazi. You see, secretly I want to read Der Sturmer, a Nazi publication.

In addtion to the laws in Israel forbidding inermarriage, there is open talk about the demographic problem. The demographic problem is the fact that the Arab population is growing so fast in Israel that Jews worry that they won't be the majority anymore.

Imagine if whites in this country talked about the demographic problem in America, the fact that Blacks and Latinos together will eventually outnumber whites?

Such talk would be denounced as racism.

But then again, I must just be a Nazi for pointing this out. Dardi says so.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdon326]

89. Now I'm upset...no one invited me to this party....

..

[The Magistrate]

93. You Should Pop Up Out Of The Dungeon More Often, Doctor!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[drdon326]

94. Really.

i gotta get out more.lol

[Forkboy]

173. I agree

[drool_n_yank]

95. To criticizes Bush's polices makes you anti Christian by default ?

The sooner we stop equating Israel with Judaism the better .
Are Sharon's polices Jewish polices ? I don't think so but some would argue that Sharon's polices are Israels therefore they are Jewish polices . Please lets have some separation from church and state . Its amazing to me , the threads that get the most controversy and biggest response and are always to do with religion . Isn't it obvious how much trouble it all causes . Why anyone would want to live in a country that has religion so intertwined into its Government is beyond me. The NY Times had a story in yesterday's paper about a music festival in Prospect Park called Unity Sessions . It featured Israeli and American Jewish rappers. A quote from one rapper called Jdub “ Music is neutral it can be used for religious purposes or for negativity . “ This is sad to me , the idea that if its not religious its negative . Look around Jdub what is the source of so much negativity .

" Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." Albert Einstein

[Dardi]

99. You cannot stop equating Israel with Judaism

Israel is the one sliver of land on this earth that is the Jewish homeland. Nobody is ever told to stop equating Saudi Arabia with Islam or The Vatican with Catholicism or any one of dozens of countries to be separated from their religious and cultural identities but when it comes to Israel, it's open season. One poster, above, has a solution: Send the Jews to Antarctica. Sadly, I think you'd find that, if the Jews made a go of it there, penguin rights would suddenly become a major international cause celebre.

[wuushew]

102. What non-Saudi peoples are attempting to annex SA?

The travesty of Israel is that the formation of the country occurred after the formation of the United Nations, after the concepts of self-determination, legal wars and international law had largely been agreed on by the nations of the world. Big difference between 1948 and 70 A.D.

There can be no exceptionalism in international affairs either by Israel or the United States

[Dardi]

106. I would reply to this

but it makes absolutely no sense. It was through the UN that Israel was created in the first place (and the UN also attempted to create a Palestinian state at the same time). As for "Saudi" Arabia and 70 A.D., you need to do some reading.

[wuushew]

112. Of course it makes sense

What is your criteria for establishing a soverign country in the post WWII era? And you know damn well I was refering to the tenuous Jewish claim for an modern state in their ancient homeland, not Saudi Arabia.

[Dardi]

117. Sorry

I still don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about.

[Imperialism Inc.]

103. I don't agree with the existence of religious states

of any stripe. I'm not interested in the forced movement of people to Antarctica either. Just because a state proclaims itself to be the(an) official state of a particular religion doesn't mean we have to buy it. Nor does it mean that the way the state behaves has any actual relationship to the tenets of the religion. Check out some history of the middle ages to get a sense of what I mean. The Spanish Inquisition might be of particular interest. You might check out how many DU Christians think the Spanish claim to be acting in the interest of Jesus was accurate (hint: ZERO).

[Dardi]

105. Israel has more religious diversity

than about 99% of the nations upon this earth. Certainly more than any of its neighbors. Moreover, it is a state for the Jewish PEOPLE, not for the promotion of the Judaism. Israel will take in Hasidic Jews and atheist jews with equal warmth. I note that Israel is much discussed and much objected to here. Syria? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Kuwait? Pakistan? Almost never, except in the course of a discussion about Israel. No one cares about those religious states. It's the Jewish state that people seem to have a beef with. Nothing new there.

BTW, England has an official state religion. Please direct me to the most recent objection on DU against the English religious state.

[Imperialism Inc.]

110. So which is it then?

"You cannot stop equating Israel with Judaism"(<--you a few posts up) or "a state... not for the promotion of the Judaism" now?

Or is it just whatever you think will start a fight at the time?

yaaawwwnnn....

[Dardi]

116. Israel is the Jewish state

Jews don't proselytize. Sorry that you can't seem to handle both concepts simultaneously.

[Imperialism Inc.]

172. Judaism

Don't tell me you've gone and done the same thing you criticized above. That is pick the one definition of many that if interpreted in the way you like can back up your contradiction. The one definition that in practice is basically unheard of.

You said cannot be separated from Judaism. Judaism is a religion not a group of people of a particular ancestry. Then when I called you on it you changed your story. Now it wasn't about the religion it was about people of Jewish ancestry.
Judaism

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=judaism

1. The monotheistic religion of the Jews, tracing its origins to Abraham and having its spiritual and ethical principles embodied chiefly in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud.
2. Conformity to the traditional ceremonies and rites of the Jewish religion.
3. The cultural, religious, and social practices and beliefs of the Jews.
4. The Jews considered as a people or community.


1. The religious doctrines and rites of the Jews as enjoined in the laws of Moses.

2. Conformity to the Jewish rites and ceremonies.

1: Jews who practice a religion based on the Old Testament and the Talmud 2: the monotheistic religion of the Jews; based on the Old Testament and the Talmud

[Dhalgren]

119. So now Palestinians equal animals?

Is the Palestinians wanting a homeland equal to penguins wanting one? The problem here is you are in support of Kerry's platform suggestions, yet in your earlier posts you were questioning if that was really a Democratic stance - I think your undergarments are showing...

[Dardi]

121. Where the hell did I even suggest that Palestinians equal anything

but Palestinians? Talk about bizarre hypersensitivity. Some people will grab on to anything to get a good smear in.

First, as I already pointed out, this is the DEMOCRATIC PARTY platform, not the Kerry platform. It's quite a bit bigger than just Kerry. Second, where did I ever question if it was really a Democratic stance? Please either provide a direct quote or withdraw your accusation and throw in an apology to boot.

[Classical_Liberal]

143. It is a jewish homeland. Most Jews don't live there.

So Jews and Israel are not the same.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. But Most Jews Favor The Continued Existence Of Israel As A Jewish State...

Of course there is great debate about it's boundaries and policies....


Judaism and Israel is so inextricably entwined that only a semantic trick could separate them...

[Chicago Democrat]

164. The foundation of Israel has been one long civil war that is yet

unresolved. Need to end the war. Need to stop killing and be like other nations. So what is your solution? I'm sick of all this mudslinging.

No vision means No End.

What's the vision. I would like details.

[Chicago Democrat]

123. Whatever... Nothing matters except how they act.

Everyone knows that Dems are more reasonable and thoughtful and of course they will say they support Israel. Who cares. Nothing matters except creation of a real Palestinian State.

[Classical_Liberal]

144. A state which can't happen if negotiations aren't based on the

green line. Only a bantustan can result if this is not the case.

[Chicago Democrat]

146. Yes, it will take massive US pressure and will be very

unpopular. It will take billions in aid and compensation for stolen land. It will take a sea change. But, things happen. Until then we can complain, try to change the platform, pressure our pols, give $ to politicians who agree with us.

50 years ago Civil Rights seemed an impossibility. 20 years ago Medical Marijuana was an outragious suggestion. Attitudes change. Let's keep at it and simply try and try again. The World Court is on the correct side; that's more than a little thing.

[Classical_Liberal]

147. I don't have as much money as the defense industry

and never will. The problem is money itself. This platform is to the right of any democratic platform in history, and with a very active antiwar movement to boot. You couldn't ask for more activism on the left and we're going to the fuckign right any damn way.

[Chicago Democrat]

148. But we have votes! Kerry is very liberal, more liberal than Clinton!

Try and cheer up, dear friend, I'm just as mad as you are, I swear. Kerry -seems- more conservative because that is who he is fiddling for right now... that big uninformed dull middle! I am not gonna listen to anymore Dem propaganda and get upset about it.

Just for example, you know Kerry is against the death penalty? For gay civil unions -with all of the rights of married people- including tax benefits, etc....That is so much better than Clinton I can't even begin. What about the poor? Remember them, and how welfare reform came from Clinton? Anyway Kerry is more liberal than Clinton, does that make you feel a little better? It helped me. Also best of all, although Kerry is a whore, like Clinton, at least Kerry is AN HONEST WHORE. I feel this in my bones.

Vote for Kerry, he's an honest whore and won't betray us like Clinton did.

[Classical_Liberal]

150. He's already betraying us.

He is to the right of Clinton on Israel. He says he will concede the settlements. He is to the right of Gore on the Iraq war. He is just plain right wing on Venezuala. He is not more liberal. He is just liberal on different things and right wing on different things. There ain't no such thing as a honest whore. As for the poor, he already said he isn't going to do anything for them because he has to balance the fucking budget so the next repuke can ignore the poor and fuck the budget up again.

My vote doesn't mean shit, because I can't vote for someone I really like, instead of Kerry. I don't like Kerry.

He is just slow death vs fast death.

90% of the dems are as wasted as he is. I am only working for the rare good egg.

I get nothing from him or this platform. They don't listen to voters, because voters have no alternative but outright fascist. So they take soft fascist stands and there is our choice.

[Chicago Democrat]

151. Haiti!? Chavez is going to win anyway, do you realise that

Venezualan Americans hate Chavez? They came here because they are rich and wanna be American. What does Kerry gain from endorsing Chavez when all the voters for whom that is a number one issue are ANTICHAVEZ. See! Kerry is a WHORE... I think being anti-Chavez is all for getting votes, remember the margin is tiny and there are at least a couple of million Venezualans, Cubans, Brazilians etc who are famously anti Marxist and positions like this play to that stupid middle.

Also HAITI, Kerry thinks Aristide got a raw deal. Maybe somebody might go to jail for it? Maybe we will invade again. Kerry is right with Democracy NOw! on this...Also plays well in Afro America circles.... Plays badly in Haitian exile community but they are tiny minority. Don't you feal sorry for Kerry having to be such a whore to so many people, but hell I take a victory for democracy anyway I can get it.

"I am only working for the rare good egg."

Damn Straight!! Kerry's got tons of $ and help anyway... Those rare eggs need EARLY MONEY and HELP!! Here's one she's running against Henry Hyde and is my pet "rare good egg".

http://www.cegelisforcongress.org/

One of the Dean Dozen...

Please keep on those eggs and let us know how we can help you.

[Classical_Liberal]

155. They hate Chavez because they are conservatives

If they are conservative they hate Kerry too. Who cares about them.

[Chicago Democrat]

156. not so simple, first generation americans are natural Democrats

and especially their children. Its not black and white, more like shades of grey; how can you get 51% nationally by being Chairman Mao?

[Classical_Liberal]

158. That isn't true anymore

only back in the days when immigrants were poor people was that true. Furthermore supporting Chavez isn't the same as supporting Mao, or being Mao. Chavez is a Roosevelt, not a Mao. His opponants are right wingers, who oppose unions and social safetynets and he is a liberal, trying to do for his country what Roosevelt did here. By your own admission these Chavez haters are rich, which means they don't fit the dem profile.

[Chicago Democrat]

160. They were rich enough to get out of Venezuala, makes them

middle class here.

The Mao reference is a from a Beatles song, I didn't mean to imply Chavez is like Mao. But is a lefti Socialist that will tweak the US when he can, GOD BLESS HIM... so there is an oblique comparison. Remember Chavez is going to win anyway.

No what I am trying to say that if Kerry endorses Chavez, Bush will call him a Commie, and that wouldn't do would it? Also for the Hispanic vote here, Kerry already has the left, this position works for those traditional Catholic Hispanics first generation who are middle class that Bush and Kerry is trying to win over. They ARE the 10% in the middle. Kerry already has your and my vote.

"If you go carrying pictures of CHairman Mao...
You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

Don't you know its gonna be... Alright?"

[Classical_Liberal]

161. Since people who hate Chavez don't know the difference between

a liberal or a social democrat and a totalitarian like Mao, I doubt Kerry can win them.

Kerry could have just kept his mout shut about Chavez altogether. IT wouldn't have given Bush ammo. It wouldn't piss of progressives. It won't stear conservative Chavez haters one way or another. This is really being done to attract equally conservative cuban voters, and more importantly oil lobby money. Venezualans aren't a big ethnic group here. The trouble is that Cubans who can't stand Chavez are liberal haters as well and not a natural constituancy. Furthermore we will lose Florida because Jeb is purging blacks again. Kerry is saying shit about this.

[Chicago Democrat]

163. I agree it wont steer the hard line anti-communists..Even you agree

then its being done for whoreish purposes. Let the professional whores spin and tell their little stories, and just keep an eye on the prize.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO LOOSE FLORIDA!!! Latest poll I saw had Kerry ahead by 7 points. Jeb is getting busted already.

You are hard to cheer up.

:)

[Classical_Liberal]

165. I hope your right

and I appreciate the effort to cheer me up, but these run to the middle campaigns are not my style. I prefer explaining to the middle why progressive policies are a good thing. I suspect Kerry will govern as middle as he runs.

[Chicago Democrat]

152. Honest Whores - 1) Do their job well 2) Don't lie about the important

things.


I've known alot of whores over the years. The best ones don't lie outright, and never about the big things... like how much things will cost or what to expect. That is what an honest whore is. If you are really ugly they will find something to compliment you about.

[JohnLocke]

145. This thread seems to bring out.......

[Chicago Democrat]

153. Passion

That's all it is.

[Forkboy]

174. Is that why you're here John?

[BlueScreen]

154. A book recommendation

They Dare to Speak Out by Paul Findley. Describes the influence of the Israeli lobby (AIPAC) on US politics without descending into anti-Semitism. An interesting read, especially as Findley was a Republican Congressman from Illinois.

Cheers,
Sagar

[Beaker]

167. it looks like kerry and the zionists will have to win without my vote

i don't/WON'T vote for a hateful platform.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

176. Could You Define Zionism Please?

NT

[eagler]

182. The Palestinians are dedicated to peace and love - Come on!

This feud has been going on so long- both sides are guilty. If Israel declared a stop to all hostilities today - there would still be suicide bombers attacking the Jews.

[eagler]

181. Kerry will support Israel just as Clinton supported Israel -

to develop the chances for a lasting peace. Something that was abandoned by the Bush administration. Certainly Israel is in as much danger of being ethnicly cleansed as are the Palestinians.

[primavera]

185. No doubt the region's authoritarian regimes will be delighted

Since nondemocratic governments throughout the Middle East habitually derive much of their public legitimacy through anti-American sentiments fueled by widespread perceptions that the US will not address the Arab-Israeli conflict as an issue with two separate sides, I'm sure they will be ecstatic to see yet another proof of the US' willingness to uncritically champion Isarel's cause no matter what in order to gain the electoral support of the American Jewish community. Hell, at the rate we're going, those dictators will still be in power for generations to come. Al Qaeda should be relieved as well, since our persistently one-sided interpretation of the Arab-Israeli conflict gives them their most compelling recruitment poster to prospective new members.

[The Sushi Bandit]

188. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

for supporting the neurotic and Palestinian-phobic Knesset.

Its time to leave them to their own devices and stop our support.

[Bo]

191. Are jews anti-abortion

[neverborn]

194. Dardi = Tombstoned

:bounce:

[Dhalgren]

195. About time! Thanks Neverborn (cool name).

[neverborn]

196. NP ;D