WP: Rhetoric On Values Turns Personal (Kerry blasts * Vacation Time)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38595-2004Jul9.html

The growing debate over the presidential candidates' values turned personal Friday, as Sen. John F. Kerry blasted President Bush for laziness and lax pursuit of Enron Corp.'s Kenneth L. Lay, while the Bush campaign accused the new Democratic ticket of condoning a "star-studded hate-fest."

<snip>

At a morning fundraiser at New York's Pier 94, Kerry and his new running mate, Sen. John Edwards (N.C.), tried to preempt GOP attacks by accusing Bush of talking about values for political reasons and belying them with his actions in office.

"I will give you a value: The value is that when you are entrusted with the presidency you are not entrusted to go and spend one-quarter of your term vacationing," Kerry said. "You're not entrusted to take the time away from efforts to serve the American people." Bush has spent several months of his presidency at his Texas ranch.

<snip>

For the first time as running mates, Kerry and Edwards blasted the Bush administration for failing to aggressively pursue Lay, the former Enron chief executive officer who was indicted Thursday for allegedly conspiring to deceive shareholders and the government. Lay, whom Bush called "Kenny boy," for many years held the distinction of being the largest financial backer of Bush's political career. "Values are putting the full force of the Justice Department on day one in an effort not to take three years and a few months before the election before you bring Ken Lay to justice," Kerry said.

[JayS]

1. Pot meet kettle?

"You're not entrusted to take the time away from efforts to serve the American people."

I'm not sure who is telling Kerry to say these things but I wish they would cut it out. His quote above will be met with the fact that he has not exactly been darkening the doorway of his office in Washington very often. Not to mention the fact that Senators vote on legislation; Presidents don't.

As a lawyer, I would hope that Kerry understands just how difficult the case against Lay has been to make and how difficult it is going to be to prosecute. I would also hope that he knows that this is not the only case that the Justice Department has to deal with.

[sandnsea]

2. New Bush ad?

It is already going after Kerry's time away from Congress, Kerry is shooting back here. And I think most people are wondering what is taking so damn long with Ken Lay. If it were any regular citizen, we'd have been convicted months after charged.

[JayS]

3. The image of Kerry's time away from work is not going to go...

...away by talking about someone else's time away from work. Bush can argue that he is set up to work at home and Kerry can argue that he can work on the plane but it is still going to come back to the missed votes. Just the way it is...

I'm not sure just how much the public understands about Lay's upcoming trial. The news here regularly mentions the eight million or so pages of evidence that will be used in the trial so they must have some understanding of how complex a case this is.

[amandabeech]

6. Lay's trial will be very complicated.

Too much evidence (exhibits at trial), lots of financial reports and jargon, and a very long trial, I am told, often leads to bizarre verdicts.

[truthisfreedom]

7. the public understands why Kerry has to be out campaigning. they know how

seriously he has to take this. it's the repukes, trying to boost morale in their own troops by coming up with anything they can, but they know in their hearts it's a false cry, because bush has been traveling on the taxpayer's dime doing exactly the same thing, and rather than missing votes, he's been mia from the white house, and god knows what he's missed.

[JayS]

9. Bush's personal jaunts don't get all that much coverage but...

...Kerry's do. Here it is presented as "rich man paid to not work" which does not help with the swing voters.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Maybe the reason Bush's jaunts don't get much coverage is because...

...no one else has had the guts to publicly bring it up except John Kerry? And right now Kerry is the voice of the Democratic party. What do you think?

Don

[JayS]

21. Good point. Where are all the other Democrats? Why no...

...statements about this when they are in front of a camera?

[MajorFlaw]

27. Kerry has said that he is serving the people of Mass by running for

president. Which would effect the greatest good, Kerry staying in DC and voting for the losing side on every issue in the Senate or doing everything he can to remove shrub from office. The Repugs are throwing every piece of shit they can think of at Kerry hoping something will stick. Kerry is doing a fine job of throwing it right back.

[JayS]

28. I have not seen him do anything that I would call effective with...

...regards to this issue. I remember the statement about Mass, and it is great for the people of Mass if that is what they want, but the race is of course national so he needs to address the issue with this in mind.

The simplest thing he could do is blow off all or a portion of his Senate pay. It is not like he is going to miss thirteen grand or so a month. The news coverage from this would be the most cost effective advertising he could hope for.

[DemBones DemBones]

65. If it bothers you so much, write him and suggest that he

return his salary, or a portion of it. He should give it to Massachusetts, I'd think, so it would benefit his constituents.

However, I doubt seriously that Kerry has skipped votes where one vote could have made the difference. I'd think he keeps in close touch to know if his vote is needed.

[Judi Lynn]

30. Very refreshing, too! I'm not sure I've ever seen a Democrat

just take a few well-aimed shots at these creeps. They've really got it coming!

[Justice]

11. Kerry Has Not Been VACATIONING when away from the Senate

Give me a break, we are talking about VACATIONING versus CAMPAIGNING.

[JayS]

12. He was not hired to campaign. n/t

n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. He wasn't "hired" at all, was he? He was elected by the people of the...

...state of Massachusetts, and I'm not hearing any complaints from the people that sent him to Congress for four consecutive 6-year terms.

By the way, in which state do you live? And who were you supporting before Kerry took control of the delegates needed for the Democratic Party nomination?

[JayS]

81. An election IS hiring someone and the people of Mass are not...

...the only ones footing the bill; that is what makes it a national issue. I've pointed out exactly what the attacks on Kerry are going to consist of. Ignore this if you want.

And as my profile, which I make public, says, I am in Texas, the place where King George the W is not from.

I am, and remain, an Edwards supporter.

[NNN0LHI]

18. That is ridiculous

Gore was the VP when he ran in 2000. That ain't what he was hired for either. Should he have resigned to run? What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you suggesting that only people not currently holding public office can run for president or something?

Don

[JayS]

20. *I* am not suggesting anything. There is a tradition for sitting...

...politicians to have time to campaign without having to resign. This tradition is getting a bit stretched and this is not getting the best press here.

[Judi Lynn]

31. I"ve seen a few right-wingers gingerly trying to see if this ploy

gets any momentum. When I saw it before, it didn't seem to go anywhere.

Probably because it's pathetic, as in "yeah, sure." :eyes:

[MessiahRp]

63. Gotta love

when people on DU share Republican talking points. See Reply #1.

:eyes:

Rp

[JayS]

67. Did you read beyond reply number one? n/t

n/t

[MessiahRp]

74. Yes actually I did

which is why I posted down here. In nearly all of your posts you defend how long it has taken to go after Enron and in nearly all of your posts you slam Kerry for his attendance at the Senate.

Those are Republican talking points. Look... Enron is pretty much a slam dunk with all the evidence they have against them and I can't see one jury aquitting Kenny Boy. Hell Bush should be indicted along with them for helping them pull all this shit off.

Secondly, Kerry is running for President. The Massachussetts voters are most likely willing to sacrifice a few missed votes in order to change the country for the better. They've been affected by Bush's BS too ya know.

Besides the Republicans in the House and the Senate have purposely stalled on doing anything important this year because they want to blame the Congressional inaction on the Democrats. Because of that most of Kerry's missed votes weren't even all that greatly important this year and when he does come back for big votes, Republican jerkoffs like Frist stall the vote so he can't have a say.

Ridiculous.

Rp

[JayS]

76. If you read more than one post of mine then you obviously...

...missed the message.

And yes, there is a chance that Lay will walk. That is why I want that trial to go cautiously. And no, I will not call someone a crook publicly until after they have had a trial.

[MessiahRp]

77. Trial or not, Lay is a crook.

There's just no way to refute it. He may get a bunch of high priced lawyers to try to expose a loophole to get himself out of trouble or have some buddies up at the WH help him out, but this guy is guilty as sin as is all the other cronies that were ripping off their stockholders and their customers (particularly the disgusting way they stole from Californians).

If he doesn't get consecutive life sentences, I for one will be pissed.

Rp

[JayS]

79. I think he is a crook too, but after reading some articles on...

...Enron, written from a financial accounting perspective, and taking into account my poor faith in juries these days, I think he has a shot at going scot free on at least the criminal charges. If he does go free, he had better plan on catching the first plane he can to Antarctica.

[bobbyboucher]

22. Don't be ridiculous, instead

try getting a clue. It's apples and oranges.

[JayS]

24. Is it now? If you can distance yourself from thinking emotionally...

...and look at a variety of news sources, you will see that what you and I think is not as important as what a small slice of the electorate thinks right now. Reality matters very little in politics these days.

[bobbyboucher]

25. My emotions are quite restrained, your logic, however,

is MIA. Being president and being Senator are two completely different things.

You are trying to say that Kerry's missing time in the Senate while running for president is the equivalent of Chimpy being absent from the White House for 40% of his renegade regime.

Nice try.

[JayS]

26. Your reading comprehension skills are also lacking. I mean...

...that in a nice way of course.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

69. Your comprehension skills are lacking

seriously so. Presidential candidates are expected to campaign. Period.

[JayS]

70. Read more than one post before you reply. n/t

n/t

[bobbyboucher]

73. Obviously,

your ridiculous statements cannot be defended, lest you would defend them. Instead you lamely attack me. Take it back to the third grade and hone it.

Nice schlepping.

[JayS]

75. If you would read more than a post or two of mine you would...

...know what I am saying.

[Occulus]

29. There is NO reason, in 2004,

that any Senator or Representative should not be able to vote on and debate legislation by remote. The catch I would attatch?

They would have to actually be in their geographical constituency (sp?) in order to cast that vote.

WHY can't our reps and senators vote by remote on legislation? Their votes aren't secret, after all; why can't they all get a copy of RealProducer or something a connect via a live internet feed to Washington to cast their vote in a roll call?

Why, IOW, do they HAVE to be physically present in order to cast their votes on legislation?

In fact, why AREN'T they reqauired by law to have such software, and spend something like 70-80% of their time with the people they represent?

GOD, if I could change this system......... sheesh.....

[belle]

37. Campaigning for a new job is not the same as sitting on the pig farm

for a month while holding the most important job in the country. sorry.

[JayS]

38. Did you actually read what I wrote? It does not matter a bit...

...what you and I think. What matters is what a small slice of the electorate thinks. I've posted about how this is playing out in the media and how it is being received by some people in my area. I've also posted a simple way for Kerry to combat the negative news instead of saying "well, he did it too" as some sort of defense.

[merh]

41. And my posts are in response to how you perceive this will be played out

since the article is recent, and how you can respond, should you chose.

Drop a line to kerry about the salary if you are so sure that will solve the problem. It probably won't get any press, that is why it is up to each of us to individually answer the questions when asked or respond to the idiot criticism when we hear it.

[JayS]

46. I think a sitting Senator forgoing a salary in order to campaign...

...full time will get a lot of press. I do doubt how effective it will be for Kerry at this point though; the damage has already been done.

[merh]

49. Did you take into consideration the effect that would have on the

democratic base in the senate? Did you forget that there was movement by members of the senate to force him to resign so that they could have a the repug governor appoint a repug to fill the seat?

There is more than just fake gestures for photo ops or press to be considered.

He and Edwards both intend to vote against the marriage amendment this coming week. I would prefer that they maintain their ability to vote for the sake of the nation and the party.

[JayS]

52. I did not phrase that very well. I did not intend for it to sound...

...like he should give up his seat...but the post reads that way.

[merh]

57. Ultimately it is going to be up to you and me and the other DUers

to enlighten those around us about the differences in * vacations and Kerry's time campaigning. The press is not going to do it, even if he gave up his salary during the time he campaigns.

I do thank you for the opportunity to post a different perspective and I enjoyed the chance to answer your concerns.

[JayS]

60. I couldn't fault the press if they didn't cover it. They are awfully...

...busy covering the Michael Jackson trial right now. :)

Enjoyed talking to you also. Have a good night!

[merh]

62. LOL - Hope you have a good nite and a great week. (n/t)

[kysrsoze]

5. You've got a point there! I'm not sure why they haven't honed in on that.

Of course, it's probably because they thought he'd bring up vacation time. Oh well, cat's out of the bag. Here we go......

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. Maybe because FratBoy has FOUR years for which to answer...

...while Kerry only has ONE.

[truthisfreedom]

8. he's firing off rounds just like rove does... some go in the air, some hit

the mark. who cares, really? the object is to keep the Dems fired up... that's all we need to do.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

14. So, can you tell me what difference Kerry's vote would have made...

...on any vote in the Senate when the GOP and some of the NeoCon Dems are voting in a block?

Do you just want Kerry on the record on certain votes, or do you want him out there raising funds and being seen by an American public that wants to know more about him?

One more thing...Fratboy has been absent from his job for almost FOUR years, while Kerry has had to be away from DC for a good portion of ONE single year. I don't have to be a lawyer to understand the basics of four years versus one year.

And here's another shot across your bow. IMHO, because of the nature and visibility of the crimes involved, Kenny Boy should have been charged, tried, and convicted quite some time ago.

[JayS]

19. It does not matter what *I* think but it does matter to those that...

...are trying to capture the votes of the swing voters. And no, Bush has not been absent from office for four years; that is the problem. :)

I'm on the side of giving Lay his day in court and understand just how involved the whole mess is. Anyone that thinks he could have been tried and convicted long ago has either not thought about it or is being disingenuous.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. Ah, yes...a typical condescending remark form someone....

...who obviously thinks they know it all, but repeatedly demonstrates how much they really know.

How old are you, really?

[JayS]

54. What did you find condescending? Nothing was intended to be.

And don't worry, I've been through a great many elections.

[merh]

33. Oh please, give me a break.

You mean it is okay that the president vacations and campaigns all the time because he doesn't vote on legislation? That is hogwash and you know it. The War President should be taking care of the nation and not campaigning. He has been campaigning since he took office and that is why his coffers are so full. Kerry has tried to make it back to congress for important votes, only to be screwed the rethugs in power.

The Lay case was not that complicated and it should not have taken 3 years to obtain an indictment. People have been singing for years, many have given the government enough to obtain an indictment. Arthur Andersen's case has been tried and appealed since it all began.

What do you just sit and the wings and post things like this for the fun of it?

[JayS]

34. If you had actually read what I wrote, instead of spouting off at...

...the first opportunity, you would have understood what I am saying. I'm sorry I am not into posting "me too" crap; if that bothers you, use the ignore function.

The case against Lay is not complicated? At last count, the evidence is over eight million pages. And you do know that Arthur Anderson had to be tried first to even get a clue as to what was going on over there, right?

[merh]

35. The Arthur Anderson case has been tried, appealed, argued before the

5th Circuit and the judgment affirmed since all of this began. Yes, it was the first case to get a foot hold on things, but many, many, many have provided evidence. The delay in the indictment is not due to the number of pages involved in this case. The 8 million pages is relative to the length of the trial, not whether there was ample evidence to return an indictment. Believe me, I am familiar with voluminous discovery issues.

The "me too crap" is not desired. Common sense would be nice. Tell me, do you think that chimp boy, the warlord, war president's role is more important than a senator's?

* should be called to answer to the people about all of his vacations and his campaigning. My gosh, we are under a terra alert for pete's sake, we ain't safe, but * can fly around campaigning, wining and dining with his elite and read my pet goat, but that is not as important as Kerry missing some votes. His votes wouldn't have made a difference and when he has tried to vote on important issues, the rethugs screw with him. The dems have no power, rethugs have all the power in congress. We need Kerry to win to change the tide, to get more dems in office, to restore our nation.

And, by the way, that ignore thing goes both ways, you didn't have to respond to my post at all.

[JayS]

36. Well, you can go back and read what I actually wrote, or not. It...

...does not matter to me.

[merh]

39. I did! My posts are in response to this post.

Pot meet Kettle
"You're not entrusted to take the time away from efforts to serve the American people."

I'm not sure who is telling Kerry to say these things but I wish they would cut it out. His quote above will be met with the fact that he has not exactly been darkening the doorway of his office in Washington very often. Not to mention the fact that Senators vote on legislation; Presidents don't.

As a lawyer, I would hope that Kerry understands just how difficult the case against Lay has been to make and how difficult it is going to be to prosecute. I would also hope that he knows that this is not the only case that the Justice Department has to deal with.

-----------
On edit - and yes, the Enron matter is basically all that a specific team of AUSA and staff have had to deal with for years now. Prosecution of a case this size is done by a team, with computer's, technicians, investigators from the SEC/Treasury, experts in finance and economics. It is the federal friggin government and they spare no expense. Just as Lay's lawyers will not spare any expense in defending. (No high profile arrestee does the perp walk, they are allowed to turn themselves in, avoid the press. The perp walk was for the admins sake - a photo op if you will. A deal has already been worked out.)

[JayS]

40. Keep reading and you will see that what I am saying does not...

...match what you are thinking I am saying.

[GalleryGod]

45. Return to Central TEXAS, Amigo!

:argh: nice job "creating your own personal thread":puke:

[JayS]

47. I'm thankful I am already in Texas. And you might note that...

...all posts are on the subject. It is not my fault that some took offense to my posting how some things are being received here. If there was a "Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy" way of putting it I would have done so.

[CreekDog]

42. You're a dumba--, running for president is not vacationing

What you said is totally ridiculous.

[JayS]

48. Was that one of the well thought out responses that we are...

...supposed to be famous for? It is apparent that you did not follow the discussion or even correctly read my first post.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. Interesting that so many posters in this thread seem to be incapable of...

...understanding the deep, philosophical meanings of your wonderful posts.

Happy now?

[JayS]

56. It is interesting, especially considering I'm just illustrating...

...how some things are being taken in various circles. There is nothing complex to be considered at all. The knee-jerk responses to anything that does not perfectly "fit the mold" does not surprise me though.

[Maddy McCall]

64. I agree...he is not exactly "vacationing." Grueling schedule...

...to run for the highest office. I don't think I could keep the pace that Kerry has.

Vs. sitting at the ranch in your rhinestone cowboy gear, entertaining corporate cronies, occasionally clearing fence rows (when the media shows up).

OP was comparing apples to oranges.

[RetroLounge]

78. What a Stupid Post...

Campaigning = Vacationing?

"I'm not sure who is telling Kerry to say these things but I wish they would cut it out"

Well, I for one am glad it's not you...

and don't bother telling me to read ALL your posts, I did, and came to the same comclusion, Zell...

RL

[JayS]

80. Then you missed the point. You'll get to hear all about it again...

...soon though, on FOX. Much of the damage is already done.

[kysrsoze]

4. Fuckin' awesome! This hits HARD! Where was that fuck all 1st year?

[saracat]

10. Great !

Hit em back.Bush was on Vacation 40% of the time.Kerry is atleast campaigning.Bush has been cutting brush fishing and preaching to the choir

[shanti]

13. GO KERRY, GO KERRY, GO KERRY!

*doing the happy dance* put alllll of their dirty laundry out there, cause you know they'll do it too.

[wish_I_could_vote]

23. I agree

stand up to Bush, and it will drive him nuts. he has grown to accustomed to people folding.

[Manix]

32. ..yessss....hammer the SOBs.

[CreekDog]

43. Kerry's smart to bring it up...

Because then Bush/Rove will know that when they bring it up, his vacation time will be questioned too, so they won't have the luxury of having only Kerry's time away from DC get questioned --GWB's time at the ranch will get questioned.

Also, Kerry can rightly say that since Bush is campaigning around the country for his ideas, that someone must stand up and campaign for our ideas, and the Democrats are choosing him.

[w4rma]

44. Bush on vacation for 40% of his term. But how much of the remaining 60%

has he been campaigning and fund raising instead of trying to prevent 911?

[hansolsen]

58. Wish he had been on vacation 100% of the time. N/T

[young_at_heart]

53. Bush and Cheney are continually talking about values

I wonder which advisor has programmed them for this tirade? He/she obviously thinks our American "values" are the barometer for vote-getting. I for one, am sick of hearing about values!

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

55. This is a good sign

Hitting the Repubs where they live. And there's plenty of ammuniation -- insensitivity on Abu Ghraib has really alienated swing voters in terms of values.

[hansolsen]

59. Good, the gloves are off. It's about time.

[nclib]

61. How is that "personal"?

Personal would be talking about what Bush* is doing in the bedroom or what his choice of desert is.

Kerry is calling him on not doing the job he was selected to do. How much vacation time * takes or the lack of the pursuit for justice for his friends is job related, not personal.

[Toucano]

71. Exactly!

It's a professional criticism, not a personal attack.

It is a perfectly valid issue for voters to consider.

Also, Kerry's time away from the Senate has largely been spent working his ass of to help save this country from Bush.

If his vote is going to make a difference, he goes back to D.C.

Like the sensible leader he is not, majority leader Frist jerks the schedule around to mess Kerry up.

[DemBones DemBones]

66. People should realize that there are many

Senate votes on which it would accomplish nothing for Kerry to rush back to Washington and cast his vote with the losing side.

Bush* spends time working out during his "workday," leaves the office "on time" AND spends a lot of time at Camp David or his faux ranch. He doesn't work late in the residence, either, since we have been told many times of his early bedtime.

Kerry, on the other hand, is missing votes due to campaigning for the presidency. So what? I would be surprised if anyone could prove he missed essential votes where his vote would have changed the result of a vote on an important bill. I'd be even more astounded if anyone could prove that on any day in their lives, Bush* worked harder than Kerry. Compare their college grades, military histories, work histories, for God's sake. Kerry is, and always was, an achiever and Bush* is, and always was, a slacker.

Bush* has been taking long vacations, working out in the middle of the day, and campaigning for four years.

Kerry has been missing votes since he began campaigning for the presidency, after many years in the Senate.

[dusty64]

68. "hate fest", how about

demonizing a segment of the American citizenry and trying to make them third rate through the Constitution. I'm SO sick of these assholes, send the lazy nasty bastard back to Crawford so he can spend the rest of his life on vacation or better yet send the war criminal to high security prison.

[gasperc]

72. oooh, who gave Kerry a clue

blast away, my friend, blast away

:kick: