Bush Says Much at Stake in Gay Marriage Debate

[Khephra]

Bush Says Much at Stake in Gay Marriage Debate
By REUTERS

Published: July 10, 2004


Filed at 12:58 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush said on Saturday that allowing gay marriage would undermine families, as he played to his conservative base by pushing a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex unions.

Bush made the highly charged issue of gay marriage the focus of his weekly radio address the day after the U.S. Senate opened debate on the proposed gay-marriage ban, which seemed certain to fail.

``A great deal is at stake in this matter,'' Bush said. ``For ages, in every culture, human beings have understood that traditional marriage is critical to the well-being of families. ... And changing the definition of traditional marriage will undermine the family structure.''

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-campaign-bush.html

[sundog]

1. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

asssssshooooooooole!!!!!!!!

:grr:

[The Zanti Regent]

23. If the Nazis want to follow the O.T. ,then I WANT 900 WIVES like Solomon!

If they want to follow O. T. marriage rules, then they should go all the way

If Solomon had 900 wives, then I should be allowed to have as many I want, too!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Yeah it would undermine families if he could leave Laura to marry Victor

[Liberal Veteran]

3. I wish just once, someone would ask "How?"

Jeez.

[silverweb]

13. I've BEEN asking that.

If I get any answer at all (which is rare), it chiefly involves some mumbling about "sanctity" and "ordained by God" or some such crap. The other stock response is that good old "slippery slope" argument -- about how if we allow gays to marry, next we'll have to allow people to marry their sibling, or more than one person at a time, or their great dane, or some other such absurd nonsense.

These people are nuts, pure and simple.

[PA Democrat]

33. Do they think they can legislate homosexuality out of existence?

How does what other people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms affect what happens in THEIRS? Are they THAT insecure about their own marriages that they have to control the marriages of others?

Ya know, maybe Rick Man-on-Dog Santorum is having problems "performing" because he just can't stop about what is happening in the bedrooms of homosexual couples.

[arwalden]

4. I Cannot Express My True Feelings Here Without Being Vulgar

-- Allen

[HuckleB]

5. When u know you're going to lose on the issues that actually affect people

then you've got to push propaganda like this.

This is, of course, very much in line with Huxley and Postman's predictions of the future of communication and debate. It's how to maintain a form of dictatorship in a so-called democracy. Keep people occupied with matters that don't affect the real bottom line of life.

[TrogL]

36. Who's Postman?

[stopbush]

6. ``For ages, in every culture,

human beings have understood that traditional marriage is critical to the well-being of families."

THAT is a BALD-FACED LIE that is happily absent of any historic perspective.

I hate this fucking asshole.

[Spangle]

10. Actualy, It's true.

It is connected to the laws of heridity, etc.

However, todays familys are made of various situations. But family, notheroess.

Some one needs to tell this guy that the only thing "critical" is that all familys would be treated equaly. He just wants "special" familys to get all the freebies, rights and security.

[stopbush]

15. Actually, it's not.

If you check the OT, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David and others all had multiple wives. The Law that Moses gave also made provision for plural marriage and in some cases, it seems that plural marriage was even commanded by the Law of Moses.

What about Jesus' parable about the 10 virgin brides and their lamps? In that story, Jesus says the 5 of the virgins ended up getting married to the bridegroom that night. Jesus didn't say there was anything wrong with taking 5 brides. Martin Luther cited this parable as a justification of polygyny.

What about the Mormons? Polygyny was practiced for the first 50 years of the church until the Feds put an end to it, and even today, instances arise of polygynal marriages in the Mormon faith.

Some Jewish sects STILL allow polygyny. In fact, though modern Israel doesn't sanction new multiple marriages, existing polygynists who emigrate to Israel may keep their multiple wives under certain conditions.

Does Islam allow a man to take multiple wives?

I don't believe all this religious hooey myself. I only cite it because * is basing *his* mis-guided and ignorant ideas on religion and the *sanctity of marriage* crapola.

How do all of the above religious beliefs square with *'s definition of marriage as being between A man and A woman?

[jdj]

18. The Huns also practiced polyandry.

As do some polynesian primitive tribes.

Some Native American tribes did not even acknowlege the paternal father of children. That role was played by the mother's brother. The history of human culture contains more variation and diversity than the human mind seems capable of accepting.

The first duty of religion seems to be to narrow human experience down to as few varibles and events as possible, for there must be something in the psyche that says if it never happened before, then it must be wrong. This is the way religion practices mind control, but passes itself off as spirituality, when instead it is a form of government instilled in people while their psyches are still forming, so that our brains are permanently warped. It amazes me how many people who would consider themselves agnostic or otherwise enlightened only go so far back as the old testament, and only so far afield as the middle east, when talking about ancient human cultures and customs. Shows just how strong and overarching the power of organized religion really is, even upon those who would deny it's influence on them.

[stopbush]

29. Oh, I could have gone back even further. I limited myself to the

Bible & Judeo/Xtian beliefs because we know that's where * is coming from. As usual, the fundy mindset can't even get *that* right, preferring to cherry pick what Jeebus would have done and then filtering that through their myopic, right-wing racism and intolerance.

Post #17 covers most of the non-Biblical stuff very nicely, not that non-Biblical stuff carries any weight with *. Hell, the Biblical stuff barely carries any weight with bushco!

As I said in my original post, *'s statement is gleefully free of any historic perspective (Biblical or otherwise). I assume what * meant when he says "For ages" means "all the way back to the time when the whacko Xtian right took over the rethug party..."

[TrogL]

37. Why do people insist upon kidnapping the gay marriage debate

and turning it into a polygamy debate?

Why are you playing into their hands?

I would like a coherent explanation or stop doing it.

[stopbush]

41. Is it really so hard to fathom?

1. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue. It has nothing to do with religious freedoms or dogmas.

2. Bushco IS making it a *moral* (ie: religious) issue. Their lynch pin for their argument is that "For ages" marriage has meant the union of One man and One woman.

3. If you look to the sources wherein they claim their moral authority, ie: the Bible, you'll find that the Bible in no way whatsoever agrees that marriage is between one man and one woman. To the contrary, the very sources they cite say quite the opposite.

Why not destroy their pseudo-moralistic hogwash using their own *authorities?*

Why not point out the cherry picked hypocrisy of their base argument?

It's hardly *falling into their trap.* It's fighting them with their own weapons.

[Lilith Velkor]

43. Because the principle is the same

As long as it's between consenting adults, people should have whatever the hell kind of relationships they want.

If I choose to marry a man and a woman, how does that threaten you?

[Zorra]

25. see post # 17

[shadu]

7. I don't understand how he is able to say these things in public

What does he say to the gays he encounters?
It feels like we are entering a new Dark Age, and I am
scared.

[theHandpuppet]

8. Hey, Mary Cheney!

Does spending that 100 grand you're making working on your Daddy's re-selection campaign make it all worthwhile? How does it feel when Bush and his neocon pals consider you and your longtime partner nothing but perveted scum while your Daddy sits silently by?

How does it feel, Mary, selling out to those who hate and despise you? All the money in the world doesn't change that, you pathetic weasel.

[lovedems]

9. I guess he has pre 9-11 mentality.

Someone needs to tell him that terrorists are a greater risk to families then gay marriage. How many children lost their fathers or mothers on that fateful day?

Well, he is sure setting the stage for criticism when the terrorists attack again. We keep hearing it isn't IF but WHEN. Critics can focus their attention that Bush and his republican controlled congress were more concerned about gay marriage then they were homeland security. Forget the terrorists! We *must* stop gay and lesbian couples from getting married!


I truly despise these idiots. :grr:

[IggleDoer]

11. "Much at Stake"

Only the election. Trump up a "cause." Crusade for it. Energise the base. Divide the electorate

[Bandit]

12. PROVE IT

Prove It. Prove the family unit will be destroyed. I want Proof. Your word is no longer enough. Iraq is a good example. We need Proof.

[tlcandie]

14. And do pray tell just what standing is our family structure in today?!

It is in shambles and religion nor a marriage certificate has a damned thing to do with it! All the pomp and ceremony is for show...gheesh! Who the hell cares HOW you celebrate your union or whether it is between different or same sex!

It is their lives and their consciences...get over it!

These people are protecting nothing but some insane idea or fantasy of what they've been led to believe is SACRED. Give me a break! Is that why mates cheat on their spouses? Is this why mates are abused? The list goes on and on and on!

Tell me, please do, how the hell is it critical and how the hell it will undermine family structure?!! I guess we can throw away adoptive families and god-parents and who the hell knows what else!

He makes me furious..shouldn't even post after hearing his stupid mouthing that says nothing but crap!

[Manix]

16. ...yeah pander to your homophobes and bigots.......DIMWIT!!!

[Zorra]

17. Now this is a completely false statement:

``A great deal is at stake in this matter,'' Bush said. ``For ages, in every culture, human beings have understood that traditional marriage is critical to the well-being of families. ... And changing the definition of traditional marriage will undermine the family structure.''

This statement demonstrates how completely oblivious Bu$h is to other cultures and the world around him in general. Bu$h is, bottom line, simply not smart enough to be pResident, and he is too linearly educated, intellectually challenged, and experientially deficient to make blanket statements about anthropological subjects.

Same sex marriage in the non-European world

Same sex marriage is a controversial issue in the United States. This is hardly surprising, considering that it had stirred much debate in other Western countries prior to gaining acceptance in Scandinavia and Canada. But the fact is, same sex marriage is not new to the 20th or 21st century, nor is it unique to the Western world. Various cultures in the Americans, Africa, and Asia had, or have the custom of same sex marriage. This is not to say that same-sex marriages in one society are equivalent to, or should serve as models for, same-sex marriages in another.
snip
Woman-woman marriage has been documented in more than 30 African populations, including the Yoruba and Ibo of West Africa, the Zulu and Sotho of South Africa, and the Kikuyu and Nandi of East Africa.1 Typically, such arrangements involved two women undergoing formal marriage rites; the requisite bride price is paid by one party as in a heterosexual marriage. The woman who pays the bride price for the other woman becomes the sociological 'husband'. The couple may have children with the help of a 'sperm donor', who is a male kinsman or friend of the female husband, or a man of the wife's own choosing, depending on the customs of the community. The female husband is the sociological father of any resulting offspring. The children belong to her lineage, not to their biological father's.2
snip
Many indigenous societies in the Americas supported alternative gender roles for both biological men and women. These identities have been termed 3rd and 4th genders (though some cultures recognized up to 6 genders) and are usually coupled with supernatural powers and shamanistic roles. These gender-bending social roles sometimes begin in childhood preferences for dress and work roles.4 Among the Mohave, men have married alyha (biological males who are officially initiated into a 'female' gender role) and women have married hwame (the female equivalent of alyha).5
snip
In Guangdong province, a marriage tradition existed in the Golden Orchid Sisterhoods, traditional social organizations for women. Two women go through a ceremony similar to a heterosexual marriage ceremony, witnessed by other society members. These married couples could then adopt female children, who had inheritance rights from the couple's parents.6
snip
In the neighboring province of Fujian, same-sex marriages between males were also recognized. Similar to the Zande model in Africa, Fujian boy-marriages involves a man paying bride price to a teenage boy's parents, and the union typically ended when the boy came of age, though there were exceptions. Sometimes same-sex couples adopted and raised children.7

http://www.colorq.org/Articles/2004/ssmarriage.htm

Lancaster is the designated spokesman for the American Anthropological Association, the world's largest group of cultural experts, and the author of "The Trouble With Nature: Sex in Science and Popular Culture" (University of California Press, $21.95, 455 pages).

Anthropologists study a wide range of marriage practices, Lancaster says, including cultures where one man marries a group of women or one woman marries a group of men or, rarely, groups of men marry groups of women. Same-sex unions are also in evidence, as are marriages that take place outside the realm of religion.

"A wide swath of cultures have allowed or encouraged or celebrated same-sex unions," Lancaster says.

"The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution," his group says in a prepared statement.

http://www.oregonlive.com/living/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/living/1082807705251704.xml

In Europe: Same-sex couples in the Netherlands and Belgium can marry. These countries do not differentiate between same-sex and opposite-sex couples, except that there are restrictions on same-sex couples where one spouse is from another country.
A few European countries -- Denmark, France, Iceland, Norway and Sweden -- offer similar legal status to civil unions.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_mar4.htm

[Ivan Zero]

19. Oh, a great deal is at stake alright

They're losing one of their favorite wedge issues, as more and more people see that gay marriage won't tilt the planet off it's axis.

Behold, the last roaring gasp of the dinosaurs before the tide permanently pulls them under.

[Catfight]

20. Bush remains an icon for stupidity, this proves it.

[jumptheshadow]

21. Hey George

An obscene war, based on lies and perpetuated by corrupt egomaniacs, has ripped the heart out of families here and abroad.

Your economic policies have inflicted pain upon families. Your support of thieves like Ken Lay, who have robbed hard-working people of their retirement savings, has generated true suffering.

Your defiance of the Geneva Convention, your arrogant refusal to listen to reasonable requests from the international community, has stripped this nation of its honor and has endangered families across the world.

What a hypocritical, contemptible man you are.

[Malva Zebrina]

22. He is grasping at straws

and I do not think it will go over very well in America.

He looks like a cheapo, asshole, bible thumping, greedy minister, hoping to gain control over a flock that is supposed to adore him, by promising them the control over others in this country that have as much rigts as they.

He will not win on this issue, but he is attempting to win by arrogance, pandering to religion and bullying and that, is, of course, very Christian.

over my dead body will there be an ammendment to the
Constitution that is aimed at squelching the rights and the happiness of other citizens of this country

Never. This stupid ricidulous attempt at bullying and attempting to alter the constitution for his own pandering to religion and the ones who are so scared of being punished by a god in the sky, for his own selfish political gain, while it also diminishes the citizens of it's own country, is absolute, fascist tyranny.

[drscm]

24. I only wish that his parents were gay and found partners that

could stand them.

[TrogL]

38. I'm gay - I have children

[ima_sinnic]

26. yeah, yeah, that's what they said about interracial marriage, too.

dumbass *#@%^*heads think the world is going to end if people are actually happy and free.

[nathan]

27. And here I thought...

the Constitution was for granting and protecting our civil liberties, not taking them away.

And just like abortion, gay marriage should not be a political issue. The majority of people against both are Christians, and we're protected from having their will forced upon us within the Constitution as well. Huh, go figure.

[Rockholm]

28. Hey George, I Got MARRIED One Week Ago!

And to paraphrase good ol' Charlton Heston...Pry this marriage certificate out of our hands over my dead body.
Good God. My family is now equal to the family next door. Where is the fucking threat George? You are a hatemonger, fearmonger and, in my opinion, a terrorist. You are trying to take away my freedoms and my way of life. Go to hell.

[rocketdem]

30. Bastards.

I am so sick of this.

Since when did gay Americans stop being Americans?

Hey, Log Cabin Repugs, here's your boy going out of his way to fuck you (and I don't mean that in any positive way).

[Cheneys_former_heart]

31. He's the Vampire and we are going to drive a stake

in the heart of his campaign. This is really all they got? Pitiful.

[stepnw1f]

32. Bush Once Again Contradicts Himself

``For ages, in every culture, human beings have understood that traditional marriage is critical to the well-being of families.

And so Mr. Bush cares about American Families... let's see: Outsourcing of jobs, taking away overtime, lying about WMD's, putting this country into the worst deficit this country has seen....

I would conclude that Bush really doesn't care about American Families or marriage itself. For all the things I have highlighted contribute to the break-ups of marriages.

[TrogL]

34. This sure didn't work in Canada

The Conservatives (or whatever they're called this week) tried an anti-gay-marriage platform and failed.

[AlexanderBarca]

35. Anthropology

must be one of those courses Bush flunked at Yale, as any anthropologist would tell you that statement about a "traditional" family in "every" culture is absolute horse hockey.

[Charles]

39. [memo to Neil]

With all of Bush's talk about the importance of 'traditional Marriage'...

How come he never explained this to his little brother, Neil.

"Neil Bush, younger brother of President Bush, detailed lucrative business deals and admitted to engaging in sex romps with women in Asia in a deposition taken in March as part of his divorce from now ex-wife Sharon Bush."


http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/25/bush.brother.reut/

[GoddessOfGuinness]

40. More like: "And changing the definition of traditional marriage..."

"...will cost the insurance industry a pile of dough, and create less revenue."

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

42. Gays are the "Jews" of Ameica.

Does anyone but me see the paralllels between Euro antisemtic talk and legend and homophobia in the USA?

We are undermining the society and family structure

We are threats to children

We are corrupting culture and secretly influence the arts and literarture.

"Die Ewige Schwule"

[Bo]

44. Forefathers rolling in the grave....

what right do we have saying what is marriage.

[Gyre]

45. Don't bite Kerry!

This is a total lose/lose for the dems. Say the decision rests with each respective state and that you support civil unions. That's all you need to say. End of debate. This not an appropriate plank for the dems to adopt when the soul of the country is at stake.

Gyre