"Election Day Worries" - Newsweek exclusive (postponement)

[Minstrel Boy]

Exclusive: Election Day Worries

Michael Isikoff

July 19 issue - American counter-terrorism officials, citing what they call "alarming" intelligence about a possible Qaeda strike inside the United States this fall, are reviewing a proposal that could allow for the postponement of the November presidential election in the event of such an attack, NEWSWEEK has learned.

The prospect that Al Qaeda might seek to disrupt the U.S. election was a major factor behind last week's terror warning by Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge. Ridge and other counterterrorism officials concede they have no intel about any specific plots. But the success of March's Madrid railway bombings in influencing the Spanish elections—as well as intercepted "chatter" among Qaeda operatives—has led analysts to conclude "they want to interfere with the elections," says one official.

As a result, sources tell NEWSWEEK, Ridge's department last week asked the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel to analyze what legal steps would be needed to permit the postponement of the election were an attack to take place. Justice was specifically asked to review a recent letter to Ridge from DeForest B. Soaries Jr., chairman of the newly created U.S. Election Assistance Commission. Soaries noted that, while a primary election in New York on September 11, 2001, was quickly suspended by that state's Board of Elections after the attacks that morning, "the federal government has no agency that has the statutory authority to cancel and reschedule a federal election." Soaries, a Bush appointee who two years ago was an unsuccessful GOP candidate for Congress, wants Ridge to seek emergency legislation from Congress empowering his agency to make such a call. Homeland officials say that as drastic as such proposals sound, they are taking them seriously—along with other possible contingency plans in the event of an election-eve or Election Day attack. "We are reviewing the issue to determine what steps need to be taken to secure the election," says Brian Roehrkasse, a Homeland spokesman.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5411741/site/newsweek/

Also see
Bush Regime working out Procedures for postponing November Election
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1964864

Who's wearing the :tinfoilhat: now?

[Desertrose]

1. hmmm...how many ways can you say "cover your a$$"

anyone not see this coming??

:shrug:
DR

[section321]

5. Yes we saw it coming, but OMG....

n/t

[Desertrose]

26. I know...still hard to really believe, isn't it?? eom

[The Zanti Regent]

69. NO, and Issikof wants to keep his Nazi pals in power!

We know the Nazi Republican Party will do ANYTHING to hold on to power!

We also know what a world class liar Michael Issikof is after all, he's nothing more than a modern Judas who got his 20 pieces of silver, er $600K, for framing Bill Clinton.

Issikof should be indicted for Treason along will ALL of his Nazi Republican co-conspiritors!

[Kira]

117. why is he reporting it

if he doesn't want to expose it?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

144. They want to see how much public resistance they get to the idea....

...if the public rolls over and goes back to sleep like they have for the last four years, you can count on NO elections in November.

[The Zanti Regent]

162. Isikoff is part of the Nazi Republican Cabal

Isikoff has been bought and paid off in a manner that would even astonish Göebbels, if that nazi pig were still around...

[Scairp]

102. From 2 yrs. ago, re: Martial Law

This is WAAAAYYY scarier than postponed elections.


Foundations are in place for martial law in the US

Recent pronouncements from the Bush Administration and national security initiatives put in place in the Reagan era could see internment camps and martial law in the United States.

When president Ronald Reagan was considering invading Nicaragua he issued a series of executive orders that provided the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) with broad powers in the event of a "crisis" such as "violent and widespread internal dissent or national opposition against a US military invasion abroad". They were never used.
<snip>

They included executive orders providing for suspension of the constitution, the imposition of martial law, internment camps, and the turning over of government to the president and FEMA.

A Miami Herald article on July 5, 1987, reported that the former FEMA director Louis Guiffrida's deputy, John Brinkerhoff, handled the martial law portion of the planning. The plan was said to be similar to one Mr Giuffrida had developed earlier to combat "a national uprising by black militants". It provided for the detention "of at least 21million American Negroes"' in "assembly centres or relocation camps".

Today Mr Brinkerhoff is with the highly influential Anser Institute for Homeland Security. Following a request by the Pentagon in January that the US military be allowed the option of deploying troops on American streets, the institute in February published a paper by Mr Brinkerhoff arguing the legality of this.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/27/1027497418339.html?oneclick=true


On edit: http://members.tripod.com/~Sidlinger/ml.html

[hang a left]

106. Would you please post this in GD for discussion?

This is a very important article. I fear it will be buried here. It can still be discussed here, but I think it warrants it's own thread as well.

[Scairp]

109. I can do that

Good idea, thank you.:)

[NMDemDist2]

2. while it is a frightening scenario, as long as there is a maximum

"delay" (ie 2-3 weeks) it is something that might be needed

could you imagine the chaos if 9/11 had been a general election day?

no one would have gone to the polls

[hang a left]

9. Frightening scenario, hell yes.

snip>

'Soaries, a Bush appointee who two years ago was an unsuccessful GOP candidate for Congress, wants Ridge to seek emergency legislation from Congress empowering his agency to make such a call.'


Anyone nervous about a * appointee being empowered to make that call?

[shockingelk]

25. Not nervous

The fair thing to do would be to postpone voting so everybody that wanted to could get to the polls.

If they postpone it for a bogus reason, like "chatter" or a "CURVEBALL", people would freak.

I would freak out if LA was attacked, nobody in the county voted and Bush won California.

[section321]

28. good point.

If someone lit off a massive bomb in the harbor and everything was snarfed up...

I still don't like it. It feels like the final step in something the creeping crypto fascistis have been working on since the 1950s.

[Dover]

51. Wasn't there some similar scenario brewing in the last Russian elections?

I seem to recall Putin considering something similar.

And I believe he has used 'false terrorism' to make his case against the Chechens as well.

[hang a left]

77. Do you think this congress would put a time limit on the suspension?

I am in agreement with perhaps a delay to not exceed 2 weeks, if they try to pull another 9-11. What are our chances of getting the resolution WE want. If congress rolls on this one, even if it doesn't take place this Nov 2, it is over completely here.

[shockingelk]

165. I don't know, but some thoughts

I would not put it past the WH to decided when to reschedule to their advantage.

But I don't think there should be a time limit: if the motive for an attack was to disrupt the election, having a fixed delay, or even maximum delay, would assist them in planning a string of attacks.

I guess mainly I just reject the notion that another terrorist attack in the US could be manipulated by the Bushies to their advantage:

9/11 - strike one
anthrax - strike 2
??? - you're OUT!

Maybe that's what Bush was thinking of when he botched "Fool me once ..."

[atreides1]

95. What If

An "attack" takes place and the elections are postponed, and then we are told by DHS that until such a time as those responsible for the "attack" are captured the elections will be cancelled.

What will we do then????

[TankLV]

113. Revolt!

Actively seek the removal from power of ANYONE urging such traitorous actions - and THE ULTIMATE PENALTY!

THE ONLY FEAR WE HAVE TO FEAR IS FEAR ITSELF!

[frankly_fedup2]

142. Have you ever tried to talk "reason" to a . . . Republican? . . .

These people's minds are closed shut and have been locked that way since Truman. There is no gray area with these people. It's black or white and that is it.

We would have to take up arms against our neighbors (cause most of mine are Republicans).

These people are going to fight just as hard to do whatever the Bush Administration wants because he is such a great leader for "Freedom." He is a man of God and has true values . . .just like they do. After all, he tells us this every time we see him on TV or the radio so it must be true. He is Commander and Chief so what about the military?

The only satisfaction I would get out of the whole thing is that the Republicans and neocons would be going through the same nightmare that everyone else would. I do not think he would separate the Dems from the Repubs once he has the total power that has been just out

[frankly_fedup2]

145. Well, I know what I'm going to do . . .

I'm going to eat all the chocolate I want because it won't matter anymore. I'm going to quit exercising. I'm going to bake some bread and eat that. (ahhhhhhhhhhhh, chocolate candy, chocolate cappucino, chocolate cake with chocolate icing, chocolate ice cream, chocolate milk, chocolate, chocolate, chocolate, . . .

Might as well get my endorphines in overdrive. :bounce:

[alilenas]

158. Start planning what you'd do

Everyone should have a plan in place for what you would do if the worst happens.

Make sure you have cash on hand, if the government wants to foment panic they could make credit cards and ATMs inactive. Some friends of mine keep some US cash, some Euros and even some silver bullion "hard currency" around.

Make sure you have an escape plan, even for a short time. Identify a place where you could go around 1-2 hours away from where you live, even it is to a friend's house or a hotel. Know where you could go to get away from where you are. One person I know would leave their rural area for an urban one on the assumption that the more liberal urban dwellers would be easier to deal with in a panic. I'm heading to a friend's farm which has a generator and well water sources. Make sure everyone in your house knows the escape plan and that everyone knows where to meet and a couple of routes to get there. Make sure you always have enough gas at all times to do this. Keep about 3/8s to half a tank.

Get a broad band radio that can run on batteries. If we're having a national emergency I doubt the net will be up, or your cell phone network.

Do you have a passport and a birth certificate handy? Have it, know where it is, and keep it close. It'll be harder to get one during and after a panic.

I hope everyone has a storm, flood, whatever emergency kit. I try to keep a small supply of easily prepaired food, a couple of changes of clothes and relevant child care products around.

If there is an attack, real or faked, the 72 hours following it will be the crucial ones. People on other threads have talked about getting weapons and whatever. Some have gone so far to post links to bomb making sites. If there is an attack, legitimate or illegitimate, these precautions will your life a bit more livable. Martial law will probably not by tolerated by the ruling elites, US Intelligence and the military for long. Your plans in place for the 72 hours following an election postponement/implementation of martial law will give you time to sort out what is or is not going on.

Just my two cents worth.

[TankLV]

112. No - the fair thing would be to postpone it in just the affected district

AFTER any event.

There is absolutely NO EXCUSE to postpone them elsewhere.

We can show our sypathy and concern to the victums by carrying on, not by allowing the terra-ists to dictate how we behave!

[mountainvue]

147. The Supremes

negated that argument in 2000 though, didn't they?

[Beaker]

156. you can't really do that- especially if results in other states...

have been announced. for a lot of the same reasons that they don't allow info on east coast numbers until west coast polls have closed.

although hawaii can apparently go suck an egg- we're not waiting that long for the results.

[fdr_hst_fan]

62. YES!!!!!

[Freya]

29. I agree with you

I know a person from NY. She said she was so afraid she did not leave her apartment for a week. (literally)

A delay might be needed. What if your polling place is burned out, for example? You won't get to vote. Anyone else who would be pissed about that? I know I would be.

I don't think a 2-3 week delay would be bad. First of all, Bush will still be in office 2-3 weeks later even if he does lose. Second, people will need time to get their senses about them. I am of the opinion another terrorist attack will mean a mass vote for bush (I know others are of the opposite opinion - it could work out either way). I think a delay would be the ONLY way kerry could win in such a situation.

BTW - the only way a delay is acceptable is for congress (which has such authority) - NOT the executive - to order it.

[seventhson]

43. why not 2 or 3 months?

Or two or three years?

who needs elections anyway when you have Bush?

Terror will ALWAYS influence elections (if we let it).


My poiot is that there should probably be a Congressional determination and/or a state by state plan that is NOT under the discretion of an appointee. But this plan should only apply in those areas "hit" and no possibility for a national delay.

I could see, for example, NYC and New Jersey's northern counties having to reschedule due to 9-11 - but to postpone the whole country for an isolated event in places unaffected (99% of trhe country) would be a dangerous precedent.

we would end up like a banana republic and in VERY dangerous territory.

[hang a left]

83. All government offices in my county shut down for 3 days after 9-11,

fearing further attacks, including courthouses. We are on the other side of the country. So this is an argument I agree with, a brief estimated time for regrouping. That way we are protected against an attack on election day. What if an attack takes place in the middle of an election day? I would like to see all the bases covered to protect our democracy, if we have any left.

But the position you take, steventhson is very important.

U.S. Election Assistance Commission is asking to be given emergency powers to determine the suspension of an election. That power should only be vested in Congress albeit there needs to be a plan.

[mtnester]

3. Snork,,,,

and everyone wonders why democrats are arming themselves..literally

Get onboard folks, the last of the consritution is about to go bye bye, and you are NOT invited to throw out a lifeline.

[section321]

4. Holy shit..........

I'm speechless.

:scared:

[Cocoa]

6. off topic...

why is the Michael Moore story listed under "Terror watch?"

[section321]

13. Because Michael Moore loves the terrorists and hates our freedom.

</sarcasm>

And did you catch the cover shot of Kerry and Edwards with the headline "The Sunshine Boys?"

Where is the picture of Bush and Cheney with the headline "Effective?"

[Barkley]

99. Cocoa you've got to be joking ...?

[lovedems]

7. Hmmm....

If I recall correctly, the justifications for using torture that came from the Justice Department were called some of the worst legal briefs attorneys have ever seen. They were so bad, didn't the Justice Department have to go back and change them?

These idiots can try and justify anything. I am frightened but also curious how big of idiot Asscrack will look *this time*.

[billybob537]

8. These no good chichenhawks are

using fear and intimidation. to distract the voters from the obvious fact Bush Lies Bush Sucks and Bush Can't win without election fraud.

[neomonkey]

10. :( Damn it all

Boy, we saw this coming didn't we. First small "leaks" and "what ifs". Now the boldness begins asserting itself and Bush & Syndicate realize this nightmare scenario has taken root among the sheep and that they now see a vehicle whereby they can retain power indefinitely.

Fuck this shit man. Right now, it seems distant, far-fetched, even theoretical and the hopeful bone in my body says this won't happen.

But if...if they would dare to forcefully stay in office past their time, past the wishes of the electorate, it's time people. No more words, words have gotten us nowhere.

[section321]

15. I hear ya.

Every time I think they won't dare do something, its done and no one says a word.

[hang a left]

86. Isn't it ironic that this idea seemed to surface here first?

I feel like I am being played a little bit.

[section321]

11. The article mentions "the success of the March's Madrid railway bombings..

in influencing the Spanish elections."

Once again the media failing to connect the dots. The Spaniards were overwhelmingly against deploying their troops. Their president ignored them and paid the price. The bombings may have influenced the outcome, but the guy was on shaky ground anyway. Sort of like a certain president we know.

Besides, keeping bush* in office is better for the terrorists because he obviously has other items on his agenda then actually controlling WMS proliferation and terrorism. Things like oil....

[Minstrel Boy]

24. And there are links between the bombers and Spanish security

which have, reasonably enough, raised questions about in whose service the bombers, in fact, acted.

For instance, from The Times of London:

Bomb squad link in Spanish blasts

THE man accused of supplying the dynamite used in the al-Qaeda train bombings in Madrid was in possession of the private telephone number of the head of Spain’s Civil Guard bomb squad, it emerged yesterday.

Emilio Suárez Trashorras, who is alleged to have supplied 200kg of dynamite used in the bombs, had obtained the number of Juan Jesús Sánchez Manzano, the head of Tedax.

The revelation has raised fresh concerns in Madrid about links between those held responsible for the March bombings, which killed 190 people, and Spain’s security services, and shortcomings in the police investigation. Señor Suárez Trashorras and two other men implicated in the bombings have already been identified as police informers. Other members of the group had evaded police surveillance, despite concerns within the security services about their activities and evidence of their association with al-Qaeda.

The telephone number of Señor Sánchez Manzano was contained in a Civil Guard dossier handed to Juan del Olmo, the investigating judge, at the National Court in Madrid. The number was written on a piece of paper found in the possession of Carmen Toro, the wife of Señor Suárez Trashorras. Both are in custody accused of supplying dynamite used in the Madrid bombs.
http://avantgo.thetimes.co.uk/services/avantgo/article/0,,1150429,00.html

[nolabels]

121. Many probably kind of figured they were dirty, now there is proof

The deal about money floating around the globe and countries with measurable borders and boundaries is how all these crooks have scammed the system. Steal from the poor to give to yourself and the other wealthy facilitators that helped get you there.

Found: The 911 "Stand Down Order"?



Jerry Russell | March 31 2004

Jim Hoffman has discovered a document which I believe may be very important to the 911 skeptic movement. This document superseded earlier DOD procedures for dealing with hijacked aircraft, and it requires that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld is personally responsible for issuing intercept orders. Commanders in the field are stripped of all authority to act. This amazing order came from S.A. Fry (Vice Admiral, US Navy and Director, Joint Staff) so it appears to me that responsibility for the US armed forces "Failure to Respond" rests directly with Fry for issuing this instruction, as well as with Donald Rumsfeld for failing to execute his responsibility to issue orders in a timely fashion.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction CJCSI 3610.01A (dated 1
June 2001) was issued for the purpose of providing "guidance to the Deputy Director for Operations (DDO), National Military Command Center (NMCC), and operational commanders in the event of an aircraft piracy (hijacking) or request for destruction of derelict airborne objects." This new instruction superseded CJCSI 3610.01 of 31 July 1997.

This CJCSI states that "In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be
notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference d, forward
requests for DOD assistance to the Secretary of Defense for approval."

Reference D refers to Department of Defense Directive 3025.15 (Feb. 18,
1997) which allows for commanders in the field to provide assistance to
save lives in an emergency situation -- BUT any requests involving
"potentially lethal support" (including "combat and tactical vehicles,
vessels or aircraft; or ammunition") must still be approved by the
Secretary of Defense. So again, the ability to respond to a hijacking in
any meaningful fashion, is stripped from the commanders in the field.
(snip)
http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/found_standown.htm

[Hoping4Change]

163. Stop buying into the repuke lie that the bombing in Madrid changed

the election. The Spanish voted out Aznar because HE LIED ABOUT THE PERPETRATORS. Aznar tried to to pin the blame on the ETA, the Basque Separatists. Spaniards were incensed that Aznar would play politics with such a tragic event!

This analysis is from a number of sources in Europe and elsewhere, a particularly good analysis that subscribes to this theory is Asia Times Online which is a conservative business magazine.


The repukes are handing AQ a propaganda goldmine for their own criminal purposes.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FC16Aa03.html

[nolabels]

179. I don't know what the poster was saying for sure, but............

Kind of sounds like he is saying that Asnar was already on the ropes, and the tricks pulled and maybe even some the acts (because of possible involvement by some domestic spooks or otherwise) could have cemented the the deal. That is rotten, but that is was sounds like went on, the evidence points that way. Their press in Spain is lot more open there, many people looked to have found out what happend early

[Newsjock]

12. Donning the tinfoil deluxe

Let me jump in right here and call bullshit on the government. "The success of March's Madrid railway bombings in influencing the Spanish elections" is a complete piece of utter crap.

The Spanish government fell because they lied to their people about the cause of the bombing. They tried to say it was Basque separatists, and they got called on it, and they were quickly voted out. Remember this.

And then look at how many times our government has tried to trot out this lame explanation -- and then wonder, perhaps just a little bit, who benefits the most from this whole chain of events and who's exploiting it the most. The truth about "al-Qaida," whatever it is, would shake the very foundation of our nation.

[Briar]

22. Remember too

that the myth about the Madrid bombings influencing the elections reflect two characteristics of the current administration - contempt for democratic processes and contempt for foreigners.

[sandraj]

33. Agreed

I'm more afraid of the usurpation of power by the current administration than I am of any supposedly imminent terrorist attack. They've been ringing suspiciously-timed false alarm bells for three years now. This is complete and utter BS in my opinion, and nothing more than an attempt at psychological bullying.

Kerry and Edwards are going to give them a serious campaign challenge over the next couple of months and they are obviously not going to go quietly. If they're REALLY concerned that a terrorist attack is in the works, why not schedule the elections a couple of months ahead of time? Answer: because they know they won't win. Not by honest means anyway.

[lil-petunia]

47. Bingo

if any other administration, even shrub's dad, had suggested emergency plans to keep our democracy running, including moving the elections, I would have no problem with the idea.

but these guys, no way. Even nixon at his worst did not take such liberties with our constitution and take OUR liberties our of our constitution.

This, in the hands of these criminals, is truly scary.

[Gman]

14. As we have discussed here on DU for the last couple of years...

there WILL be a US government generated "terrorist attack" and the elections will be canceled IF the election is very close and Bush may lose OR if Bush is convincingly behind in the polls in that he will likely lose. If Bush pulls ahead of Kerry by 5 - 10 points there will be no terrorist attack.

The unbelievable arrogance that they know better than the American people what is ideologically best for the country is absolutely vile and disgusting.

[fdr_hst_fan]

66. AMEN, BROTHER!

[Toots]

16. One major reason for vote by mail

Not only does it keep people from congragating at the polls but you have several weeks to mail in your ballot so there is no major concentration. Also it would increase "turnout" two-fold and I think most here would agree that is a worthy goal. I think most liberals just don't vote.

[Davis_X_Machina]

27. Votes by mail may never be counted....

...all it would take would be a little 'anthrax'.

[Freya]

32. Don't agree

What do you trust more - electronic voting with no paper trail or a paper ballot?

No contest IMO. Paper mail ballot all the way.

[Davis_X_Machina]

35. Paper ballots cast in person. n/t

[stevedeshazer]

59. So anthrax wouldn't keep people from showing up in person, too?

[Hoping4Change]

164. Use optical scanners like we do in Canada and elsewhere.

Optical scanners are super fast transmitting results to Elections Canada. All people have to do is mark a "X" beside the name.

What could be simplier? The tally is quick and there is a paper trail.

[Mikimouse]

17. First of all...Isikoff=Ewwwwwwww...next...

I predicted months ago, during the cacophony emerging from the RW after the Spanish elctions, that this is what would happen here. If there is a 'terrorist' event in the US near the time for the election in November, the RW will use the following tactic to try and steal the election once more: "The terraists are trying ta do the same thing here that they accomplished in Spain, gettin' mah ally Anzar out of office (by the way, I know it is Aznar, but * mispronounced it on his first trip to Spain, Mr. bile lingual indeed), but this time the terraists are dealing with the merkin people and we have much more of a backbone than them Spanicans! So, we won't let the terraists dictate to us, RE_ELECT */go fuck yourself '04!" I am a talking puppet chimp, and I approve this message (right Poopy...er...Poppy?).

[Gordon25]

18. The problem is...

...if there is such an "attack" (real or staged) it will almost certainly result in Homeland Security raising the threat level to Code Red. In such an instance, according to Tom Ridge in an interview a couple months back on network tv (CBS I believe) "basically it means the country will be shut down." People will be told not to leave their homes. Local government agencies will be taken over by federal officials from FEMA and for all intent and purposes, martial law will be declared. It may well mean "postponed" for the duration of the war on terror. General Tommy Franks has said that another attack like 9/11 would likely result in the suspension of the Constitution and the "militarization of America."

Don't forget, with all the investigations now underway, defeat in November and the Democrats taking back control of one or both branches of Congress, may well mean many of those currently in power could be facing criminal trials and/or war crimes charges. Thus far, these thugs have shown no compunction about doing whatever is required to achieve and maintain their power, including illegal invasion of another country with ten thousand or more innocent civilian casualties, the suspension of habeus corpus, curtailment of the first ammendment and other Constitutional protections such as those against unreasonable search and seizure.

Personally, I believe if the election is held, even with Diebold et al and their magic voting machines, Kerry and Edwards will win in a landslide. But I will not rest easy until the inauguration in January. Let's keep working to oust the bastards, but let's not bury our heads in the sand, either.

Gordon25

[fdr_hst_fan]

72. Han ANYONE on this site

EVER read ANY of the major works written about the THIRD REICH? If you look hard enough, you can find out everything you need to know about Bush & Co in those books-it's all there, in black, white and blood!

[mountainvue]

150. You can't compare

Bush to the Third Reich! It's ridiculous, ludicrous, anti-semetic and anti-American! </sarcasm>

[Cerridwen]

19. Perhaps we should have the election now, then?

You know, kinda like they moved up the "hand over" of Iraq?

Yeah, I know, it couldn't happen at a moments notice, but maybe we shouldn't wait for November 2.

[DBoon]

20. And what are OUR contingency plans?

What will be OUR response to canceled elections? Who is planning this (anyone?)?

[truthisfreedom]

21. why not have a surprise election, like the way they handed over Iraq?

on some arbitrary day, we secretly elect the president, then wake up to the news... and of course, if we don't hear about it personally, we're SOL...

[Gin]

23. I will say one thing the cabal does on a regular basis....they give us

warnings...they boldly put all this shit out there....and create the circumstances to make it a reality....so...listen to what they say...and...watch what they do....pathetically predictable.

[TahitiNut]

30. "The Ends Justify The Means"

It's this amoral perspective that rationalizes all manner of abuses and atrocities. It is the heart and (black) soul of partisanship - the kind of partisanship that sustains ethical monsters like Zell Miller. When principal is repeatedly compromised for the sake of pragmatism and deontological ethics are sacrificed on the material altar of utilitarianism we eventually go morally bankrupt as well as materially bankrupt.

[Freya]

31. Here is what I think

IF there is a delay don't freak out YET.

Here are the situations in which it would be appropriate to do so:

1. There is a delay when nothing has happened.
2. There is an announcement of a total cancelation.
3. There is stated delay of 2-3 weeks. (for example) Within 2-3 weeks though people are still not voting.

So long as there is a vote within 2-3 weeks after something major happening I won't have a problem. Bush would still be in office then anyway (so it's not like he's staying in longer than he would anyway), and I think it would work out best for us - both in insuring everyone can vote and that people can get cooled down so they vote with their heads.

[pop goes the weasel]

are you kidding?

There is no need for a delay of any sort. Any attack on the US will only affect a small percent of the population directly. There is no reason for elections not to go on as scheduled where there is no disruption of basic movement. The only way that basic movement can be disrupted throughout the nation is for the federal government to impose military law. And, I would like to point out, to do that they need to have the National Guard at their disposal. And just where is the Guard lately?

The one thing that could mess up the election is an inability to count ballots recorded electronically. What is absolutely necessary is that all elections have a paper vote back-up to be used in case of emergency. Even with electricity out, there is no reason elections can't be conducted if provision is made for voting the old fashioned way if need be. This is what Fatherland, er, Homeland, Security should be insisting on, not talking about cancelling or delaying elections.

[Freya]

37. Depends on the attack

"Any attack on the US will only affect a small percent of the population directly"

Wrong. A nuke going off, for example, would effect SEVERAL STATES.

Obviously you don't realize the extent of what one could do. Here's a snippet from Gene B. Williams “Nuclear War, Nuclear Winter”.

"The temperature of a nuclear explosion reaches into the millions of degrees. "Little Boy," exploded 1,000 feet (300 meters) above Hiroshima, caused the surface temperature to jump to well over 5,000 degrees almost instantly. Citizens more than two miles (3 kilometers) from the blast were burned.

The force of the explosion annihilated everything within more than a mile of the center. Photographs were taken showing where "shadows" had been burned into concrete walls; the humans who were the sources of the shadows had been completely vaporized.

It has been estimated that nearly 60 percent of the population of Hiroshima died either instantly or within a few weeks. Many more died later. Even today, more than forty years after explosion, the effects are still showing up. The children of the survivors continue to carry the "radioactive plague."

Yet "Little Boy" was very small compared to the warheads presently available."

[rfkrocks]

38. All the more reason to hold the election

and vote chicken George out-his fighting in Iraq has left us vulnerable and he has failed to protect the country-the elections get held because that is what I thought fighting for-no Nazis party in the US with fires in the Reichstag to justify a dictator

[Freya]

41. <sigh>

You obviously aren't thinking logically. How exactly are you going to vote (or allow other people to vote) if the polling place is vaporized/no one is running the polling place (because they are dead)/no way to ge to polling place/getting to polling place means risking death/etc?

[pop goes the weasel]

58. If

there is a massive nuclear attack of the sort that would obliterate us all, voting would be the least of our problems. So stop with that already. One of us isn't thinking logically, for sure, and that one is not me.

Anything short of a massive national disaster would still allow for voting to proceed as scheduled where possible. Delaying elections would do nothing to help the situation.

If a major metropolitan area were to be subject to a nuclear attack devastating enough that it disrupted an area the size of Texas, that would still leave the majority of the nation with the necessity of carrying on. Waiting until things were back to normal in the disrupted area could take a generation or more. A delay of two or three weeks, as you initially indicated you are prepared to accept, would not matter to those inside the disrupted area, and it would likely be stretched out indefinitely by the putsch in power.

Now, if you want to say there could be a less devastating attack, then, fine, a two or three day delay in the affected area only would be reasonable. But there is no reason to shut the rest of the nation down for that. Nor would it matter that polling results would not be synchronized, since they didn't used to be synchronized.

Don't give into fear of terror. Insist that elections proceed where ever possible without delay.

[TankLV]

115. No - YOU are the one thinking like a repuke - and that is far from

logical!

There would NEVER be a reason to postpone the elections NATIONALLY - just limited to the immediately effected areas ONLY.

WE ONLY HAVE TO FEAR IS FEAR ITSELF!

WE NEED TO SHOW OUR NATIONAL RESLOVE.

WE WON'T LET "TERRA-ISTS" - foreign or REPUKE - DICTATE AMERICAN POLICY!

[acmavm]

44. If, for some reason,there happened to be a nuclear attack in this

country it will be more important than ever to get these guys out of the White House.

Nothing would justify the postponement of the elections. In fact, the mere discussion should have people up in arms. Doesn't anyone remember the remarks Tommy Franks made regarding martial law? They've been working on this for quite some time in my opinion.

There is no way this issue should be left up to the bush* administration. The members of the senate and congress have to get involved, because we already know that the administration is packed with liars and crooks.

[serryjw]

67. What Tommy Frank said.......

was one more attack on US soil the Constitution may NOT survive.

Short of an all out nuclear attack:nuke: I agree there is NO reason to delay elections. That is EXACTLY the reason to have the elections to show we are a democracy,:spank: we can not be intimidated and we value our RIGHT to choose our leaders...What a message that sends.

I'm an election judge and I will be there at 6AM!:kick:

[fdr_hst_fan]

75. Remember:

More than HALF of the Senate and House are REPUKES!

[belle]

123. Yeah, what I want to know is: isn't it their JOB to make sure it DOESN'T

HAPPEN??

[pop goes the weasel]

49. As with the possibility

of a giant asteroid smacking into Earth, if that sort of scenario unfolds, there will be no point in awaiting the instructions of government officials. And it is extremely unlikely that a terrorist organization will be able to assemble and detonate a nuclear warhead comparable to the most destructive "presently available." What could happen might be attempts to blow up nuclear power facilities in several states or to deploy "suitcase" bombs. There are all sorts of scenarios for various levels of doom, and none of them require holding off on the election. Either there will be no possibility of re-establishing the present order, or the present order can proceed without pause. Consider, for example, a devastating earthquake occurring in Missouri on election day. The disruption, if it is anything like the New Madrid quake was, will be considerable. Should the rest of the nation stop the election process until Missouri stops shaking? Of course not. On a more everyday level, I have gone through local elections in which heavy rainfall made it impossible for people to get to the polls. Were you prevented from voting because people around here couldn't make it through the flood waters? The vote must proceed as normally as possible where ever possible.


If the only votes that are availabe to be counted are those from early voting and absentee ballots, it is most likely officials will go with the results from that. So, when you register people to vote, be sure to tell them to vote early or vote absentee.

[fdr_hst_fan]

74. Who HAS this nuke,

how did the GET it, and HOW will it GET here?

[Hoping4Change]

166. No expert is foreseeing a "Little Boy" attack by terrorists.

What is deemed possible is a dirty bomb (radioactive material dispersed by a OK type bomb which could contaminant a city the size of New York.

[SheilaT]

52. You've come up with a very convincing

way they could steal the election. Make sure there are power glitches in certain, crucial areas. Declare, reassuringly, that it's a Good Thing that at least all the votes could be counted in (name reliable Republican strongholds here) and such a shame, but not really changing the results that there were a few minor glitches in (name Democratic strongholds here). The thing is, they only need to mess with a few crucial locations in the end.

[shanti]

79. and they already tested the "power glitches"

thing, remember? it worked.

[woo me with science]

68. nope

"Any attack on the US will only affect a small percent of the population directly"

i think if 2000 taught us anything, it's that denying a small portion of the population a vote can have immense consequences. if bombs go off in heavily democratic precinct areas, there better damn sure well be a delay planned.

[DainBramaged]

104. You all miss a basic point here

IF the elections are 'postponed', will campaign finance laws still apply? If the answer is yes, Bozo gets mega-face time and Kerry gets Zippo.

This is very, very bad for us if the Reich-wing pulls it off.

[rfkrocks]

34. Neither Robert E Lee

or Hitler and Tojo stopped our voting constitutional rights and if they suspend voting for a time of their conveince I say it will be time for a new declaration of independence for this country. Quite simply the government will have broken the tie with the people especially if the decision is made solely by the party in power-but this is just what the GOP is doing to Congressional votes now-extending deadlines for when roll call votes happen-if the majority party screws with voting then this is no longer the usa and the country will fall apart

[Freya]

39. Different situation

If German troops were bombing out your city do you REALLY think you would voting? Honestly? No, you would not be. If he had been on election day then yes, he would have stopped the voting.

There was actually voting going on in NY on 9/11. It was delayed. NY is not flying the swastika today as a result.

[rfkrocks]

40. Excuse me

voting occured in 1864 in the middle of a civil war

[Freya]

42. So you change the subject

I take it you conceed if a city was being bombed by German air craft voting would not be going on?

Please also show me what regions in the civil war were voting when actual combat was going on? Yes, people voted in the civil war. But that's largely because confederate troops weren't in town trying to kill them at the time.

[rfkrocks]

45. Did I change the subject

or did you ignore the fact that I mentioned the civil war in the first post- you chose to duck that analogy-thats the fact-can you admit that-

[Freya]

48. Nope

I answered the civil war. Still don't feel it's applicable to today.

[rfkrocks]

56. so under the Freya state

would a Madrid bombing killing 200 people cancel the election

[Freya]

65. Nope

There would NEVER be reason to cancel.

A delay would be in order for something along the lines of a nuke.

[PoohStuff]

61. I would vote at the regular time...

because between the "poison pens", "anthrax", elevated to high "security threats", and the crap that happens locally in my town (rapists, muggers, car accidents, etc.); it looks like I run the "risk of death" just by going to work every day. If we question the delay of elections, soon we will question every decision we make. They're many other countries that deal with these issues every single day of our lives. Unfortunately. They're some who are scared and don't do anything, and they're those whom, if their polling place gets bombed, there usually is some sort of alternative, another polling place, by mail, or something the government provides, and should provide in a tragedy of such sorts that they go to. What we need to do is consult those countries as well to get information, because we have not been subject to these types of things in such a feverent nature. (Not as experenced in such attacks like other countries are.)


I don't believe there should be a delay because, if the right thing is done, it should be known what type of terrorist attack (cause they "did but didn't" before) and if not, some sort of an alternative(s)that should kick in just in case, NOT to interrupt the flow of life. I don't understand how, in one case after 9/11, it was said to go to work, and life should go on, and in this case before the elections, and when questions of who really is the "evil doer" there should be some type of delay? If we don't make some sort of stand, and continue to cast a vote in what we believe in, then the fear factors will mount and we'll be in more than just big trouble, no?

Take Care

PoohStuff :)

[rfkrocks]

63. Pooh-good points

I do not want to live in a "i am terrified yellow" state. I am also sick of the warnings such as we will be attacked but we don't know by who or how or when. FDR said it "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"-BTW welcome to DU:toast:

[PoohStuff]

71. Thank You RF

:toast:clink: lol... I agree with your points 100%. If we responded to every question the media answered with hrmmm.... and respond to the fearful what ifs every time, we'd be short of the movie Gattica with Uma Thurman, where our DNA is tested wherever we go and we're predisposition-ed to be a certain type of person by the government. Enough is Enough. sheesh.

[pop goes the weasel]

73. Exactly

The focus needs to be on making sure that voting can go on as scheduled with no delays. If they are so darn worried that there will be an attack that affects voting, then the government needs to be heavily promoting absentee and early voting and developing plans for (1) same-day emergency voting and (2) delayed voting only in the places where same-day voting is impossible.

[SheilaT]

126. To suggest that the government

would promote advance voting or delayed voting is to assume that the government wants most citizens to vote, and that they want a free, fair, and honest election. I don't believe that's the case. Their interest is in making sure as few people as possible vote.

Remember, (as a college psych teacher told my class on election day 1976) a lower voter turnout favors Republicans, so if you're a Republican, don't vote.

[pop goes the weasel]

135. Who says I'm assuming anything?

I said that's what they should be doing. And they should be.

[oldcoot]

120. Great Post

We seem to forget that we take risks as part of our everyday living. Why is it any worse to be killed in a terrorist attack than a car wreck? The result is the same in both cases.

[tinrobot]

57. London

I believe London was being bombed and they seemed to hold elections.

[TankLV]

116. OUR NATION'S CAPITOL WAS BURNT TO THE GROUIND!

Just what does it take to satisfy your "subject".

That's the most perfect example of an exact replica of a scenerio - worse than just bombs raining on a city - the CAPITOL was completely burnt and occupied by the enemy!

[fdr_hst_fan]

78. We were in the middle

of a full-blown World War when this country voted in 1944, and the election went on; this is NOTHING compared to that!

[Th1onein]

84. I say bullshit to this. This is exactly what Bush wants and he will

have no compunctions about killing thousands MORE Americans in order to stay in power. The story THEN will be "Americans won't be swayed like the Spanish were. We're going to STAY THE COURSE." Then the same old shit of not having any forensic evidence analyzed from the attack, just like 911. They'll say, "Bush WARNED us this time, but there was absolutely nothing we could do about it."

[jpak]

87. In the event of a delayed election

America would see the Chimp on TV 24/7 saying shit like "We can't change horses in the middle of the stream" and other such nonsense.

He would use it as a opportunity to look "presidential" and show "strong unwavering leadership in a time of national crisis".

....and I guarantee you would see NOTHING of Kerrry and Edwards throughout this crisis (thanks to our Whore Media).

The motherfuckers would shamelessly use this as an opportunity to "influence the election" and do the terrorists work themselves.

What's that I hear????

The sounds of jackboots marching?????

[TankLV]

118. Not to mention such loyal opposition stallwarts like Lieberman and Miller!

Unfortunately, I can see it now!

[mountainvue]

No!

We need to let them know that this is not acceptable UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

[frank frankly]

36. I am wearing the tinfoil.

We are in BIG TROUBLE.

[Radical Activist]

46. If this happens I'll be

very dissapointed if people don't start an actual revolution and take back control of the government. There will be no excuse for allowing Bush to stay in office another day if he tries to postpone or manipulate elections in that way.

[jackstraw45]

50. Karl Rove wants one month photo-op delay to capitalize on tragedy AGAIN

CONGRESS is the only body that can give permission to do this.

Tell them you won't fund them, vote for them or EVER support them again if they vote to suspend.

Otherwise, they'll roll over for Bush again, give him a 1 month delay to campaign against the backdrop of tragedy AGAIN (think bullhorn), and steal ANOTHER election.


Karl Rove wants this photo-op again before a delayed election

[mountainvue]

152. Time to bust out the

Congressional contacts list again. Who's got it? I know it's on this board somewhere.
Could someone hurry up with the Plame indictments already? This regime is completely out of control.

[Dover]

53. All the more incentive to conclude any criminal or impeachment action

against Bushco members BEFORE November. Of course then you risk a presidential pardon for the criminals if Bush, himself, isn't put on trial......

[SheilaT]

54. Several points here.

One is that pointing out that elections occurred on schedule during various past wars completely misses the point that a terrorist attack here is something quite different. For one thing, mass media allows all of us to know about breaking news very quickly. And in those wars, the government was actually willing to allow elections. I don't trust this current administration in that regard.

The comparison to possible earthquake, or times when weather has made it difficult for voters in certain locations to get to the polls is a good one. However, remember that September 11, 2001, was a primary day in NYC, and that election WAS postponed. Remember Giuliani trying very hard to persuade everyone he should be allowed to remain in office despite term limitations?

The main argument against the election being canceled outright is that we don't simply elect a president that day, but we elect all of Congress, a third of the Senate, and thousands of other positions across the country. So the election will have to be held sooner or later.

However, don't put it past the cabal in DC not to do everything possible to insure they remain in office. Remember, they came to power in a coup, and people who come to power that way rarely go quietly in a free, fair, and honest election.

The notion that disruptions might occur in selected areas in a way that would at least favor the presidential outcome is a strong possibility in my opinion. Perhaps selected power outages (see my post #52 elsewhere in this thread), perhaps selected Red Alerts, perhaps other things I'm not thinking of.

What I do know, is that if I can think of various ways to steal the election, you can be sure that Bush & Co are way ahead of me.

And they won't do it as crudely as a phony alert. No, they'll have more than half of the country convinced that what happens is legitimate, and most people won't even notice that the result is the stealing of the presidency once again.

Think real hard about some of the anomalous results in 2002.

[pop goes the weasel]

60. elections

"The comparison to possible earthquake, or times when weather has made it difficult for voters in certain locations to get to the polls is a good one. However, remember that September 11, 2001, was a primary day in NYC, and that election WAS postponed. Remember Giuliani trying very hard to persuade everyone he should be allowed to remain in office despite term limitations?"

Yes, that is true for NYC. What of elections in the rest of the country? Were elections elsewhere postponed?

[pop goes the weasel]

70. strange

I went to see if I could answer my own question. There were elections in the rest of NY, which were, as I suspected, postponed. But there was also a scheduled election for Hamtramck, Michigan. What's so odd is that it was supposed to have federal election overseers because of discrimination against Arab citizens, and yet I can't find the election results or a report from the JoD on the election. Anyone from Hamtramck know?

[SheilaT]

125. I don't believe any other

elections were taking place that day anywhere in the country. But LOTS of events were postponed or canceled that day and that entire week. My kids' school nearly canceled the yearly carnival scheduled for Friday, but fortunately those who realized it would be totally stupid and unnecessary to cancel that event prevailed.

Think of how many people all across the country got their kids home from school early that day. And that was on September 11th itself. Since then the fear factor has been ratcheted up considerably. It would not take much to terrify a lot of people so that they'd be afraid to go out and vote on November 2nd.

[pop goes the weasel]

136. Some people are easy to scare

And they've been peeing in their pants everytime Ashcroft says "Boo" or they see a plate of falafel. Let them cower in their bunkers and not vote. I'll still get out and do it, just as, on 9/11, after seeing the towers hit, I still drove 45 miles in to work from the safety of a rural area to an urban area at a time when we still weren't sure what was happening. I did my job and I calmed frightened people the whole time even though that isn't in my job description.

The reason that events were cancelled the week of 9/11 is that there was an astounding lack of planning in advance. Even long-standing emergency procedures weren't used (such as Emergency Broadcasting). Planning should be aimed at keeping the machinery of society going, not shutting it down or delaying it.

[spotbird]

55. Interesting Freeper thread on point.

Some debate about the constitutionally of the proposal.

Also, a surprising number of them think it's a bad idea.

on edit:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1099072/posts?page=1

[serryjw]

80. YES...GO read it......some interesting.......and humorous

posts......I'm surprised the freepers have so much respect for the Constitution.

[neverborn]

157. Real conservatives have respect for the Constitution

Just Bush* lovers and neo-cons that want to tear it down.

[flewellyn]

130. It's hard to judge by Freerepublic...

But from the posts I've seen, it looks like this would be the move that would turn most of the Freepers against Bush. So far, their support for him has been unwavering, to the point of lunacy, but from what they're saying, suspending or postponing elections would set off even the hardcore Republican right-wingers. After all, how many tinfoil-hatters among the right wing have been warning of martial law for years? If it actually happened, they would go ballistic.

If that happens, expect a coup ousting Bush by military force. Or a mass rebellion by the state governments.

[mondo joe]

153. There are Freepers Who'd Be Glad to Eliminate Elections

Though there are more sane Freep opinions than usual in that thread, there are some really appalling ones:

--------------------------------------------------------
Suppose a Kerry/Clinton ticker were to actually win this November. Would the military allow that to happen, or would the little 200-year experiment in democracy basically be over at that point?

184 posted on 04/18/2004 5:36:53 PM PDT by judywillow

--------------------------------------------------------
Sure some people would be upset, but there wouldn't be much they could do about it. They would be the same paranoid folks who say they don't believe that Bush was elected in the first place, there opinion isn't all that valuable to me.

Naturally there would have to be elections at some point, when things have calmed down.

IMO it is unwise to dismiss this possibility out of hand.

176 posted on 04/18/2004 2:45:10 PM PDT by Voteamerica
--------------------------------------------------------
Sure some people would be upset, but there wouldn't be much they could do about it. They would be the same paranoid folks who say they don't believe that Bush was elected in the first place, there opinion isn't all that valuable to me.

Naturally there would have to be elections at some point, when things have calmed down.

IMO it is unwise to dismiss this possibility out of hand.

176 posted on 04/18/2004 2:45:10 PM PDT by Voteamerica
--------------------------------------------------------
BUT . . . I believe the Left is sooooo intent on destroying the county, and that they are such an imminent threat, patriotic Americans would be fully justified in preventing them from fielding any more candidates, period. Never mind what muslims do or don't do.

That's right, I want the democrap party BANNED. Socialists BANNED. Communists BANNED. And all their pet causes permanently BANNED from further consideration. This after all is what they themselves have done to many causes they despise, both good causes and bad causes, through invention of an insidious device for manipulating public opinion known as political correctness.

They should be exiled, their parties banned, their causes outlawed. If this takes martial law and suspension of a scheduled presidential election, if it takes civil war, so be it. I'll be darned if we should sit idly by and let them slowly destroy us.

Some will scream that this is un-American, but it is no more un-American than the Framers ridding the country of redcoats.


207 posted on 06/11/2004 2:51:56 PM PDT by LibWhacker
--------------------------------------------------------
Here's the basic problem I'm having feeling good about any of this. If a vote is taken, and a majority of my friends and neighbors don't see whatever it is the way I see it, I can accept that. I'd assume they have good intentions and rational reasons.
However, when a rogue political party manages to win by dragging the entire lower half of the human condition to the polls in busses and cattle cars, that may or may not be acceptable. Those people are not my friends and neighbors.

Having the presidency in the hands of the dems at this juncture is, to my thinking, the same thing as having the lunatics running the assylum. I simply don't believe in that sort of thing. The lunatics could probably OUTVOTE Nurse Ratched, but Ratched's rightful response would be "So what?"


200 posted on 04/19/2004 10:04:28 PM PDT by judywillow
--------------------------------------------------------

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shanti]

76. here we go...

the cat's out of the bag. if this happens, i guarantee there will rioting in the streets.

[Minstrel Boy]

81. And if there is rioting, expect martial law.

Not that there shouldn't be rioting. But if they haven't declared it by then, no doubt martial law will be their answer.

[wjsander]

85. And who would ENFORCE martial law?

The National Guard that's in Iraq? :7

[fdr_hst_fan]

82. Don't bet on it:

there'll be some NASCAR event of some athletic event to keep eople glued to theri TV's and OFF the streets!

[foo_bar]

89. Code Name "Girls Gone Wild"

[burrowowl]

88. If they try to pull a stunt like that

I hope the People will be as courageous as the Spanards and go out and vote or protest en masse, millions and millions and 10's of millions!

[HereSince1628]

90. Look! One Lantern hangs in the belfry of the Old North Church!

One light! ONE LIGHT! The enemy is attacking from our own shores!

T’was the 18th of April in ‘75, hardly a man is now alive who remembers that famous day and year and the midnight ride of Paul Revere. . .

One if by land and two if by sea, I on the opposite shore shall be, ready to ride and spread the alarm through every Middlesex Village and farm, etc. . . . ”

Folks, Ridge, the neocons and the radical right are on OUR shores. This isn’t a threat from Al Qaeda or the commies. It's preparation for enforcing the coup from within.

The enemies of the revolution are on shore, within our territorial boundaries, and threatening to take control of our landscape. According to Paul Revere that’s a one!

So, "Ride," Up! UP! Spread the alarm... They come by land! If they can postpone the election for 4 days they can probably do it for 4 years or 4 decades.

Laugh but I am feeling just a wee bit alarmed as what seemed like tinfoil foolery looks more than a bit more plausible.

[tom_paine]

105. "I had a little horsey named Paul Revere....just me and my horsey

and a quart of beer. Riding 'cross the land, kickin' up sand. Sherriff's posse's after me 'cause I'm in demand."

--Beastie Boys "Liscense to Ill"

[milkyway]

91. When does "if an attack takes place" morph into "if an attack MIGHT take

place"? They are using Isikoff to test the waters today. They are getting people used to the idea that the elections might need to be postponed. To me, it seems fairly reasonable to postpone elections if an attack takes place on election day or the day before. On 9/11 the entire country was affected by the attacks. It's hard to imagine a Presidential election still taking place on that day.

But soon they will expand their criteria to postpone elections if an attack appears likely. They will say they want to insure the safety of the voters. Ridge will have the sole power to make this determination.

In his heart, bush is un-American. He does not believe in democracy. Every action he has ever taken has always been to decrease the power of the people over their government and their lives. We are living in a time of creeping fascism. Step by step, with seemingly reasonable justifications, our democracy is being washed away to sea.

[HereSince1628]

122. I think that those were contemporaneous events

As we sit at our computers, the machinery of "Justice" and "Security" is about to make sure that nothing interfers with the rightful appointment of * to a second term and/or the creation of a climate of fear in America that allows that to happen.

I am sure that no DUer has missed the point that Dept. of Homeland Security is an oxymoron...DHS is about making us terrified that something is about to happen.

[playahata1]

92. So, if they dare try and pull this crap,

what can We, The People, do about it? The very thought of Bushco doing something like this sickens me to no end.

[Wednesdays]

93. Hoping this is just a trial balloon...

But OH MY GOD, what a trial balloon!

Yeah, they'll postpone it all right...until sometime in the 22nd century or so.

Nothing surprises me anymore.

[Rex]

94. Do we really need elections in America?

If you say yes then you're aiding the terrorists!! :crazy: :crazy:

[struggle4progress]

96. There's a big fat States' Rights issue here.

The government of each separate State is best qualified to determine which events (if any) require rescheduling of elections in any part (or all) of that State. There's absolutely no reason for the federal authority to insist that all states make exactly the same decision.

[Wednesdays]

103. Well, if September 2001 is any indication...

There won't be any mention of "states rights" or anything, because everyone will suddenly become "yes men" for Dubya.

Just after 9/11, I remember that even on liberal message boards, a strong number of posters--in fact most people--were saying "we all need to come together and support our President" and "now is not the time for partisan bickering." I swear, I felt like I was the only person who hadn't eaten the pods.

If anything happens on Election Day or immediately before, then God have mercy on us all.

[midwayer]

108. Patriot Acts

I'm pretty sure I heard that State and Local jurisdictions will give up thier rights to the feds in a state of national emergency, this provided through either Patriot 1 or 11,,,not sure which

[struggle4progress]

148. I don't have time right now to reexamine "Patriot Act" but ...

... here's a link to the text: http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

I don't remember any such provisions in the Act, and I don't think the Administration would be making any noise at all about this matter if they already had such authority.

[nolabels]

128. I heard that, the net was kind of like a wasetland for a few weeks there

Heard about the first plane hit on the Radio, turned on the tube, then was watching one channel or another as they talked about this other one.

I was kind of a big deal, thousands of people got killed and everything, but when you carpet bomb entire cities that sometimes happens too.

Like someone is saying my brand of terrorism is better than your brand of terrorism. I keep on thinking why no body asked why do all these extremist hold sway.



A case against self-annihilation
Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance by Noam Chomsky

Reviewed by Piyush Mathur

Keep your critic close to you - s/he beautifies your yard;
without water or soap, s/he cleanses you!
- Kabeer Das

In a spot-on essay titled "The Loneliness of Noam Chomsky", Arundhati Roy dared to state the obvious: Noam Chomsky, the globally celebrated pro-democracy activist and intellectual from the United States, remains isolated at home even as the nation continues to tout its democratic traditions
(snip)
Protecting America from itself, preserving humanity
A diehard rationalist, Chomsky views the American state, a superpower, as an institutionalized irrationality that needs to be prevented from both self-destruction and world destruction - through strategic recourse by all thinking minds to the "second superpower": "world public opinion" (pages 253, 10). He backs up even this philosophical-sounding claim by invoking the massive empirical evidence of global opinion polls that have typically cast a thoroughly negative light on the actions of the US government.

Chomsky deems US polity destructive because its "basic principle is that hegemony is more important than survival" (page 231). As such, he views the peculiar framework of the economic globalization of the 1990s, orchestrated to a great extent by the US ruling elite, as yet another step toward self-destruction - especially because it equates the economic structure of the neoclassical market with the political structure of democracy.
(snip)
http://atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FG10Aa01.html

[struggle4progress]

151. Forewarned is forearmed:

your description of immediately post-9/11 US is accurate. So the question becomes what political steps to take today to prevent the Bushistas from further consolidating their coup through further attacks: for example LTTE arguing that the public should be wary of proposals to suspend elections.

[midwayer]

107. struggle4progress

I'm hearing that under the Patriot Act 1, expanded Presidential powers, passed on Sept 14 2001, that when in a state of national emergency the Pres can call off the election UNCHALLENGED through "edict"

I think I heard Patriot 11 will cover the State and Local jurisdiction issues whereas they are forfeited to the Feds.

aren't they attempting to peicemeal Pat 11 now?

Thoughts anyone?

[midwayer]

111. I heard this

on Tony Trupiano's show on Friday Jul 9

he was discussing this with Al Martin in his last hour

archived at http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

I'm not that smart but intrigued & concerned about this

[struggle4progress]

149. See #148. eom

[milkyway]

97. A vote for anybody is a vote for the terrorists. Support America--don't

vote!

[iamjoy]

98. Sounds Logical....Scary

It just sounds so logical, if there is some sort of attack and not everyone can make it to the polls why not delay the election for "just a few weeks"

And later, when something else is going on "a few weeks more"

This is how they chip away at our civil rights.

If anyone has ever read Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" don't some parts of it seem amazing and frighteningly real?

[Placebo]

100. this is terrifying...

really.

This is the first time i'll be able to vote, and to think a fabricated terror scare or a legitimate one could keep me from using my first vote to push bush out of office makes me want to scream.

[Chicago Democrat]

101. GREAT REPORTING!! Minstrelman!

Thank you..

[TankLV]

110. Can't say all us "tinfoilers" didn't warn you all!

Destroy NYC - fine - postpone elections for those districts ONLY.

There is no reason whatsoever to postpone them in other places.

The patriotic thing to do is to not be afraid - to show courage to these potential "terra-ists" that we will let NOTHING stop our American way of life - especially our 1st and foremost sacred duty and obligation - the ELECTIONS!

[inanna]

114. I told everyone in my family

that I thought this might happen. They wouldn't believe me...

[AlFrankenFan]

119. This cannot be allowed to happen

And as I said in a previous thread, for the media to have gotten ahold of this, it ain't a good sign. It's all too convenient for this "major threat" to come up during an election year.

[HereSince1628]

124. Bingo!

But then that means the resistance goes forward from here.

1. We MUST be prepared to deal with a postponed election.
a. that includes arguments to SCOTUS
b. that includes legislation proposed in Congress

2. We must be prepared to deal with a post-coup environment.
a. Legal wrangling
b. Counter-insurgency
c. etc.

3. We must read all those old RAMPARTS magazines.

[DaveSZ]

127. I knew it

We all knew they were fascists.

I wonder when everyone else will wake up?

[T4tyra]

129. IMAGINARY WIND IS SCARY

IMAGINARY VOTING HAS HAPPENED BEFORE WE ALL LOSE WHEN WE LET (THEY) CHOOSE

[Zynx]

131. I would still show up to vote on November 2nd in a form of protest.

Who else is with me if this happens?

[SenatorBulworth]

134. Has anybody thought about

the message this sends to the right wing wackos?...I mean the ones that are totally bonkers and like to blow up abortion clinics? Now we not only have to worry about foreign terrorists but also one of our home grown crazies who is willing to kill 50,000 of his country men and women so that the Boy Emperor dosen't risk losing to Kerry?

Maybe this is being released with a wink and a nod towards some of them? that way bushco dosen't even have to plan a "terrorist attack"

[Hoping4Change]

167. I think the repukes are encouraging AQ to attack however

that they might be giving a wink and nod to homegrown fanatics is a possibility.

[Bo]

132. Which side of the tinfoil goes out ward?

[maggrwaggr]

133. I hate to say "I told you so" but I told you so ......

I've been predicting this for a year now.

So have others here at DU.

Now here it comes.


Great ........

[Minstrel Boy]

137. Sucks to be right,

and left.

And no doubt, after the next attack and the clampdown and suspension, many people, even here (if there's still a here here), will still say that comparing Bush to Hitler only makes us look bad.

[maggrwaggr]

155. yup. Over and over ........

It's what drove me to DU in the first place, the lead-up to the "war" with Bush spouting lies and lies and Iraq, me KNOWING they were lies, realizing the media wasn't reporting that they were lies, realizing the media actually wanted the war .....

Yeeesh. Gives me a stomachache just to think about it.

It just shocks me that things have gotten this bad. That a few of us in this website, most of whom aren't even in the news media, are so fucking far ahead of where most Americans get their information.

It's really disgusting. I feel like I'm back in junior high school ever since Bush got selected.

[Crachet2004]

138. We lived through the Cold War, with a global threat of annhilation...

And nobody asked for the power to delay an election! Anyone can see what they are up to, and it is no damn good!

[gauguin57]

139. We will take to the streets.

We will keep on rockin' in the free world. If this election is cancelled by Bush & Co., we will shut down every major city in this country. If everyone takes a couple of personal days from work, and we all stagger our participation, we can fill the streets of the financial/power centers of this country to the point where no business can be accomplished. We will stay there till the election is held. And then, because the Bush Admin. abridged our rights, everyone will vote for Kerry.

They CAN'T ARREST US ALL!

[Robeson]

140. And they will take us to "Reeducation Camps", or in their venacular,

...."Freedom Camps". Hope everyone here is thinking about which Canadian city you want to live in. If you haven't, you better start now.

[Ilsa]

141. Oh Shit! San Antonio news covering this now, trying to scare

the bejebus out of everyone.

My husband and I say, "Okay, let's have the election EARLY." How about August 10?

[nolabels]

146. Tha manual says:

REPETITION
An idea or position is repeated in an attempt to elicit an almost automatic response from the audience or to reinforce an audience's opinion or attitude. This technique is extremely valid and useful because the human being is basically a creature of habit and develops skills and values by repetition (like walking, talking, code of ethics, etc.). An idea or position may be repeated many times in one message or in many messages. The intent is the same in both instances, namely, to elicit an immediate response or to reinforce an opinion or attitude.

* The audience is not familiar with the details of the threat posed. Ignorance of the details can be used to pose a threat and build fear.

* Members of the audience are self-centered.

* The target can take immediate action to execute simple, specific instructions.


Fear of change. People fear change, particularly sudden, imposed change over which they have no control. They fear it will take from them status, wealth, family, friends, comfort, safety, life, or limb. That's why the man in the foxhole hesitates to leave it. He knows and is accustomed to the safety it affords. He is afraid that moving out of his foxhole will expose him to new and greater danger. That is why the psychological campaign must give him a safe, honorable way out of his predicament or situation.

Terrorism. The United States is absolutely opposed to the use of terror or terror tactics. But the psychological operator can give a boomerang effect to enemy terror, making it reverberate against the practitioner, making him repugnant to his own people, and all others who see the results of his heinous savagery. This can be done by disseminating fully captioned photographs in the populated areas of the terrorist's homeland. Such leaflets will separate civilians from their armed forces; it will give them second thoughts about the decency and honorableness of their cause, make them wonder about the righteousness of their ideology, and make the terrorists repugnant to them. Follow-up leaflets can "fire the flames" of repugnancy, indignation, and doubt, as most civilizations find terror repugnant.
(snip)
http://www.mapinc.org/propaganda/propaganda/proptech.htm#terror_technique

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. I brought this up right after the Patriot Act was signed into law...

...and I nearly got run off the board for being an extremist.

Looks like I have a lot of company out here in "Extreme-land" these days.

Anyone want to argue about the comparisons between early Nazi Germany and the NeoCon Junta?

[TacticalPeek]

154. How scared can they make us? Fitting duty for any Dept named "Homeland".

Makes you want to both polish your jackboots and crawl under the bed.

If it's time to loose the dogs of terror on the Constitution, then let's do like a couple of posters have suggested above: hold the national election early. The Dept of Fatherland Security and the Federal Bureau of Intimidation have recently said that they see no actual terrorist plot hatching right now, and any terrorist planning for this fantasy would be timed for just before Nov 2.

Disrupt the terrorist plans! Quick, before they can adjust! Hold the election August 3, or August 10th at the latest. Spike the ball in the terrorists' face! They might be so flummoxed that they lay off a November attack. Think of all the lives that would save!

But bushco wouldn't go along because they do not want to save lives. They want lives to be lost. They need lives to be lost. They want Saddam to have WMD, they need him to have WMD. They want Saddam and UBL to be best buddies, with nukes and chem/bio weapons heading for our shores. They want and NEED terrorists to attack and kill Americans. Because they want to keep and expand their power.

[Gore1FL]

159. My Fear

-- ets say the postpone the election until after some imaginary deadline the SCOTUS randomly decides to adhere to...

Gosh no electors?

[illuminaughty]

160. Yes, the "tinfoilers" did get it right

Hoped to be proved wrong, and still do, but this is going exactly as predicted. Martial law prevents election and all under the guise of securing the homeland. Doesn't matter if the troops are stretched thin; there will be sufficient bodies to enforce martial law. This has been planned and exercises have been practiced for years.
Hang out at "infowars.com" ...purchase the DVD "9/11 Road to Tyranny" ...then be afraid, be very afraid, and then prepare to REVOLT! WAKE UP AMERICA!

[cstruthers]

161. No disrespect to pirates

These guys stole one election already I don't think they would
hesitate to steal another. These lunatics running the asylum
are worse then pirates, at least pirates took care of their
own. I read an article about the raping of Iraq by the bush
bunch, man unbelievable. It turns out that since an occupying
force cannot sell off the public resources of a conquered land
shrub and co. inc. had to turn over the country to the
"sovereign" Iraqi gov. So they can sell off the
public resources at pennies on the dollar. 
     I hope this fool looses because it's going to take a
whole lot of years to unscrew what his little gang of merry
raiders has so completely screwed.

[Hoping4Change]

168. Repukes have wreaked havoc that won;t be easily fixed.

btw cstruthers wecome to DU. Glad you're here.:hi:

[Nancy Waterman]

169. I don't think they can do it legally

The first Tuesday after the first Monday in November is written in the Constitution. You would need an amendment to change it. the same with January 20 which is in one of the amendments.

[Walt Starr]

171. It isn't in the constitution, it's in Title 3 of the U.S. code

which also provides for state legislatures to take care of the issue if they cannot choose electors on that day.

[American liberal]

170. are you people crazy?!

It's like you're inducing a self-fulfilling prophecy!

It's obvious to me that the GOP is scared of losing more seats in congress and the presidency in the fall, so it is drumming up these scare tactics. Several people in the media have said what's the big deal, that Ridge is not reporting anything new.

The elections WILL NOT be delayed. There WILL NOT be a terrorist attack. Whoever said the Repukes control both the House and Senate is wrong. Democrats control the Senate and will have an even stronger majority come November. All this conspiracy theory stuff, although it may exist, WILL NOT come to pass.

You are making it all sound like a done deal! It's bullshit! I see this as a last-ditch effort by a bunch of rich white men with an agenda to retain power. In fact, the report on wanting to delay the election cracks me up! The GOP is scared! They know they're going to lose and are trying to find another way around it!

You know what's going to happen? We are going to vote Bush & co out of office in November and restore the democratic process to this country. Simple as that.

Peace to you all.

[Robeson]

177. Sorry dude, but.....

....the Repugs DO control the Senate. Thats why Bill Frist(R) is the Senate Majority leader. It pains me to say it too, but, those are the facts.

[GinaMaria]

172. Who's 'they'?

"they want to interfere with the elections," says one official.

The republicans or Al Qaeda?

[AirAmFan]

175. Judging from GOP history, election interference will be much subtler than

complete cancellation and rescheduling of the election. At the end of Election Day, we're likely to be saying, "whewwww, that was close", and to be satisfied elections weren't just plain canceled. (Our populist expectations are being lowered.) But most likely "Homeland Ballot Security" efforts will have tilted the vote toward Dubya in subtle but effective ways long ago perfected by Lee Atwater and other Karl Rove predecessors.

Sorry I did not see your post before my previous post, half an hour later. The great minds think alike? :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prospect of "Homeland Ballot Security" to tilt a close election to Dubya has MANY MANY precedents in Republican history. Chief Justice Rehnquist "made his bones" with the Arizona GOP mob many years ago by mastering "ballot security" efforts to interfere with Democrats getting into polling places.

When elections are close, a time-worn GOP playbook draws on tactics from banana republics. The GOP hires armed, uniformed thugs to be posted at polling places, ostensibly to guard against "election fraud". Their real job is to threaten, harass, and discourage minority and poor voters. Generally the thugs need not do anything much beyond just standing there, "protecting" the polls.

Because of discrimination in the criminal justice system, a MAJORITY of minority and poor men in many inner city neighborhoods, and skyrocketing proportions of women, are on probation or parole. Police are free to "roust" those under "criminal justice supervision" whenever they want. For people who fear being "hassled" by armed men in uniform. intentions to go into polling places well may change at the last moment, depending on who's standing outside.

When Loretta Sanchez defeated Crazy Bob Dornan for a California House seat eight years ago, it was despite the presence of "ballot security" officers in special uniforms. The uniforms closely resembled those of immigration officials, well known for harassing naturalized citizens as well as undocumented foreign workers. (See http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/97/33/news-moxley.php )

And how did 911 Commission chair Tom Keane get to be ex-governor of NJ? From http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V13/23/mcd... :

'Americans might like to think that discrimination against minority voters ended with the civil-rights movement, but it's been going on in many parts of the country ever since. And BALLOT-SECURITY programs have been the usual vehicle. A notorious "anti-fraud" initiative was implemented before the 1981 gubernatorial election in New Jersey. The Republican National Committee formed a National Ballot Security Force.... On election day, the security force dispatched armed off-duty police officers wearing official-looking armbands to heavily black (and Democratic) precincts in Newark, Camden and Trenton. The Republicans also posted signs warning that the polls were being patrolled by security-force members and offering a $1,000 reward for anyone giving information leading to the arrest and conviction of election-law violators....

The Democratic National Committee filed suit against the New Jersey and national Republican parties, and it was eventually settled. The defendants agreed not to post security forces at polling places or allow any other election tactics that targeted minorities or deterred them from voting. Despite the agreement in the New Jersey case, the Republicans resorted to similar maneuvers in Louisiana in the 1986 U.S. senatorial campaign involving Democrat John Breaux and Republican Henson Moore. ... Republicans ... launched still another ballot-security program in North Carolina in 1990, during the heated U.S. Senate contest between Republican Jesse Helms and Democrat Harvey Gantt.... After the election -- which Helms won -- the Justice Department sued the North Carolina Republican Party and the Helms for Senate Committee. The defendants, without admitting any wrongdoing, entered into a consent decree in which they agreed not to undertake similar ballot-security programs in the future without court approval. Copyright © 2002 by The American Prospect, Inc.'

[Bo]

173. The News is already in Latin America as a given!!!!!

I have recieved calls from Peru and Ecuador and Colombia asking about the postponement!!!!!.

[AirAmFan]

174. 'THEY want to interfere w the elections'. Re-read the lead-in quote from

Newsweek carefully.

Remember previous Bush accusations? "AL GORE does not tell the truth". "BILL CLINTON ignored al Qaida." Etc, etc. Now, WHO REALLY wants to "interfere with the elections"?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you trust Tom Ridge to stay out of election politics?

Last week, Ridge made some frightening noises about what we might call "homeland ballot security" JUST when Kerry was introducing his VP choice to the American people. The timing was quite suspicious.

Ridge did not raise the color-coded alert status and admitted he had no specific knowledge about where, when or how we might be attacked.

If you want to get scared about what this "security" concern may mean for interference in November, to tilt the election to Bush, just google "ballot security". You'll find accounts of how cynical Republicans used "ballot security" to try to help elect many infamous Republicans Jesse Helms, Bob Dornan, and even Tom Keane.

[stopping by]

176. A scenario

Say New York City gets a massive terrorist attack early in the morning on election day. Nobody knows what's going on, and people get scared. Running election day is impossible in New York City, but the rest of the country still votes.

If voters in New York City can't vote, New York almost certainly goes to the Republicans. In a close election, that would probably tip the balance to the Republicans.

Should we not delay the election in such a case if a part of the country is majorly affected?

New York City could of course go ahead with the election. Under any likely scenario, most of the polling places will still be open. But if terrorists do simultaneous bombings, turnout would go way down and New York would likely go for the Republicans.

The oddity is that any almost any terrorist attack would be more likely to lower votes for the Democrats. Terrorists like to attack big cities, which tend to be Democratic. And a major attack in one city would likely cause lower turnouts in other big cities.

[Walt Starr]

178. Your scenario is false

Under Title 3, Chapter 1, Section 2 of the U.S. code, the New York State Legislature makes the call.

[stopping by]

180. That could give a State legislature a heck of a lot of power

What if a Republican-controlled legislature decided to proceed with elections after an attack in a Democratic stronghold? A State legislature could make a choice that could determine our next president.

[Walt Starr]

181. Yep, sure could. A State Legislature could even determine

there be no election for no damn reason at all.

There is no guarantee under the constitution that you will vote for the electors, either. That power, under the constitution, is granted to the state legislatures.

That's the fact about presidential politics. You vote for electors, not the president. The states don't even have to let you vote for the electors if they decide that the state legislature will make the call on the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November.

That's why many have called for an amendment to alter the way presidents are chosen, especially after the 2000 election debacle.

[Emillereid]

182. There was no suspension in 1864 during the friggin' civil war! Lincoln:

Lincoln on the 1864 Presidential Election


Response to a Serenade


November 10, 1864


It has long been a grave question whether any government, not too strong for the liberties of its people, can be strong enough to maintain its own existence in great emergencies.


On this point the present rebellion brought our republic to a severe test; and a presidential election occurring in regular course during the rebellion added not a little to the strain. If the loyal people, united, were put to the utmost of their strength by the rebellion, must they not fail when divided, and partially paralized (sic), by a political war among themselves?


But the election was a necessity.


We can not have free government without elections; and if the rebellion could force us to forego, or postpone a national election it might fairly claim to have already conquered and ruined us. The strife of the election is but human-nature practically applied to the facts of the case. What has occurred in this case, must ever recur in similar cases. Human-nature will not change. In any future great national trial, compared with the men of this, we shall have as weak, and as strong; as silly and as wise; as bad and good. Let us, therefore, study the incidents of this, as philosophy to learn wisdom from, and none of them as wrongs to be revenged.


But the election, along with its incidental, and undesirable strife, has done good too. It has demonstrated that a people's government can sustain a national election, in the midst of a great civil war. Until now it has not been known to the world that this was a possibility. It shows that, even among candidates of the same party, he who is most devoted to the Union, and most opposed to treason, can receive most of the people's votes. It shows also, to the extent yet known, that we have more men now, than we had when the war began. Gold is good in its place; but living, brave, patriotic men, are better than gold.

http://www.nps.gov/liho/writer/1864.htm

It is treasonous to talk of suspending or postponing an election! Through wind and sleet and bombs we can get to the polls!!! Better yet, in view of election tampering, mail in your vote ahead of time!