US House slams 'misuse' of International Court of Justice

[Freddie Stubbs]

WASHINGTON

The House of Representatives on Thursday passed a resolution 361-45 deploring the UN General Assembly's "misuse" of the International Court of Justice at The Hague, which last week advised Israel to tear down its security fence after the UN body referred the question of the barrier's legality to the court.

House Resolution 713, introduced by Reps. Mike Pence (R-Indiana), Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Florida), and Shelley Berkley (D-Nevada) said the ICJ court's ruling "seeks to infringe upon Israel's right to self-defense." It also condemned the Palestinian leadership for failing to engage in a sustained fight against terrorism.

"By condemning the ruling of the International Court of Justice, Congress has given voice to the compassion and commitment that the American people feel toward our precious ally Israel," Pence said.

Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland) said while the ICJ's decision "is a non-binding opinion, the unfortunate truth is that it will be used by those who seek to undermine the State of Israel, as well as those who seek her destruction."

more: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1089861306316&p=1006688055060

[Demeter]

1. You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet!

Wait until all your Fearless Leaders and Lackeys are in the dock (rubs gnarled and withered hands gleefully) "We'll GET you, my pretties, and your little Dogs, too!"

[CharlesGroce]

2. What do you mean?

Are you a cartoon character?

[sampsonblk]

3. In other words...

We only complain when other people do something illegal, but when its Americans or Israelis, then international law is being misused. Oh boy...

[RC]

4. Hog wallow!

Pence does not speak for me!

"By condemning the ruling of the International Court of Justice, Congress has given voice to the compassion and commitment that the American people feel toward our precious ally Israel," Pence said."

Israel has proven it's self to be no better than the BFEE.

[Jim Sagle]

5. Horseshit.

[RC]

6. Would you care to explain yourself?

Your disagreement was a little short of useful information.

[Dookus]

8. Don't wait too long...

that's the level of disourse we can expect from Mr. Sagle on any issue which mentions Israel.

[Jim Sagle]

24. And it's a level more than adeqiate to cover the "issues" raised.

[Dookus]

94. No, it isn't

You seem to think there isn't a single thing Israel has done or can do that is worthy of questioning.

Even most Israelis would vehemently disagree with that.

[drdon326]

9. "Israel has proven it's self to be no better than the BFEE".

and you say that based on what ??

[RC]

16. The Wall

The Israli over retaliation to the Palestinians trying to defend themselves and their homes.
Where is the Palestinian Air Force in all this? Where are the Palestinian bulldozers?

[drdon326]

17. "Defend themselves...".

really?....by strapping kids with suicide belts with the promise of

eternal sexual bliss and sending them onto busses and into pizzerias

and discos to wantonly murder innocent people.....thats called a WAR

CRIME.

[RC]

19. Israel is a nuclear power

with all the war toys the US has. What does Palestine have to defend itself?

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. With all of the military power that Isreal does have

It certainly does show restraint. They could easily wipe out the Palestinians, or drive them into the sea, as the Palestinians and other arabs have attempted to do in the past. But they do not.

[The Stranger]

39. Actually, they are wiping out the Palestinians, intend to continue, and

many will even admit that the intent is to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestinians entirely.

[The Magistrate]

40. Ah, The Redoubtable Mr. Stranger

Explain to me please, Sir, how a casualty rate of one tenth of one percent constitutes wiping out a people? There is something about it that escapes my poor ability to comprehend such questions....

"You can't cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve."

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

52. Eviction, Sir, Is Not Liquidation

The problem with hyperbole as a method of argument is that its wielder often comes to mistake the tool employed for an actual description of the matter, with poor effect on regular breathing and blood pressure.

Your parade of horribles amounts mostly to a catalogue of the normal processes of partisan suppression, which is unsurprising, as the peoples of Israel and Arab Palestine are engaged in a war of long duration, conducted necessarily in partisan wise by the latter side.

[The Stranger]

68. "Eviction?"

Semantics aside, are you sure you want to be on record here authorizing or supporting the "eviction" of the Palestinians from their land?

[The Magistrate]

71. An Accurate Description, Sir

Endorses nothing but reality: it is a shame that concept so often needs endorsement in wrangles over this matter....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[Freddie Stubbs]

95. It is not a 'Berlin-style wall'

The Berlin was meant to stop East Germans from escaping to the West. This wall is meant to keep terrorists out.

[The Magistrate]

96. No Need To Spoil The Lad's Fun, Mr. Stubbs

It sounds so much more stirring to call it that, and that is the important thing, after all....

"You provide the pictures; I will provide the war."

[The Stranger]

103. No need to quibble over the words . . .

The wall is the same sort of thing the Nazis erected around the ghettoes.

[The Magistrate]

104. Not Really, Dear

That has been gone into rather extensively below, and it would be tedious to reprise it for the tag-end of the column.

That looks a rather effective barrier, designed to operate against snipers shooting from some elevation. The greatest portion of the barrier, though, is chain-link fence. It does not make for such over-wrought hyperventilation to show photographs of that, which rather cuts down on the enjoyment of the person hooked on the rush of outrage....

[Jim Sagle]

97. Actually, they're NOT wiping out the Palestinians, since the Palestinian

population is rising, not falling.

Case dismissed.

[Tripmann]

54. Military Power??

Is the world supposed to admire Israel for not pushing the Palestinians into the sea? Or for not decimating them with military might??

If America and Israel were the only other two nations on the planet, the palestinians would be history. Its only fear of international outcry and trade restrictions that keeps Israel in reasonable check. They have ignored more UN resolutions than Iraq but does bush and co. get on THEIR case??

If republican america is the bully of the world then Israel is its spoilt child, testing boundaries and ignoring basic decent social rules.

Tripmann

[The Magistrate]

63. It Is, Sir, A Fair Test Of intent

If it is one's power to do a great deal more harm than one actually inflicts, it is difficult to argue that greater harm than was inflicted is the intent.

[Tripmann]

76. Ah, valid point

So we should also appreciate the fact that the coalition of the willing only slaughtered a tiny percentage of the total number of women and children in Iraq when they had the ability to nuke them all.

Apologies, but I would rather measure a governments slaughter of innocents by how just it is deemed to be, not by how much worse it could have been.

Then again, thats just me


Tripmann

[The Magistrate]

82. Indeed, Sir

Far, far worse havoc could have been wreaked: by the last century's standards, it was a damned mild exercise.

[The Magistrate]

23. Nonsense, Mr. C

It is perfectly within the power of the various Arab Palestinian irregular groups to direct their attacks against military personnel. Instead, their attacks generally have the object of killing as many civilians as possible with the means at their disposal. That latter, Sir, is a crime of war; a grave and deliberate breach of international law. Persons who support the cause of Arab Palestine, and wish to see international law applied to this conflict, are just going to have to face that fact squarely, that the object of their support routinely commits war crimes of extraordinary ferocity. The right of self defense does not convey any liscence for criminal behavior in attempting to vindicate that right.

[The Stranger]

43. The IDF directs its attacks against civilians, not military personnel.

Just as an example, the dropping of two-thousand pound high explosive bombs from jet fighter aircraft on crowded slum apartments and obliterating the structures and their inhabitants is directing an attack against innocent civilians. This, Sir, is a crime of war, a grave and deliberate breach of international law. Persons who support the cause of Israel, and wish to see international law applied to this conflict, are just going to have to face that fact squarely, that the object of their support routinely commits war crimes fo extraordinary ferocity. The right of self defense does not convey any liscence for criminal behavior in attempting to vindicate that right.

[The Magistrate]

56. You Are Not Very Good At This, Sir, Are You?

Israeli miltary operations are generally aimed at combatant members of the various irregular bodies of Arab Palestinians that constirute the military arm of that polity.

The laws of war do not criminalize any and all casualties to non-combatants resulting from an operation aimed at combatants: rather, they require that attempts be made to minimize such casualties, and that the direct military value of the operation be reasonably worth the harm done to non-combatants. That is admittedly a subjective and imperfect standard, but most Israeli operations, it seems to me, meet it.

It has never been my position Israeli behavior does not, at times, violate the laws of war. In all instances, the use of human shields, which is well documented, is criminal, and there are certainly some instances where it seems to me insufficient care is taken in operations to minimize casuaklties to non-combatants.

[The Stranger]

67. Surely you jest.

Israeli miltary operations are generally aimed at combatant members of the various irregular bodies of Arab Palestinians that constirute the military arm of that polity.

It seems that, by this statement, you have at least to admit that whenever they are not "generally" aimed at "combatant members," then they constitute war crimes. Generally, then, they are not committing war crimes, but you impliedly admit, there are exceptions. What a comforting thought that must be.

And this begs the question of what "irregular bodies" you are talking about or when they are being bombed -- individuals who happen to be at home in densely populated slum apartment buildings when you decide to bomb them? Who then is determining the use of human shields -- the person at home or the bomber?

The laws of war do not criminalize any and all casualties to non-combatants resulting from an operation aimed at combatants: rather, they require that attempts be made to minimize such casualties, and that the direct military value of the operation be reasonably worth the harm done to non-combatants.

The laws of war clearly criminalize bombing civilian homes and places where civilians live. There is simply no way around this. This prohibition simply cannot be overcome by a claim that some person (who is not on the field of combat) may be within that massive complex of civilian homes. Both military, international and the criminal laws of any jurisdiction rightfully condemn this as murder.

[The Magistrate]

69. Wear It In Good Health, Dear

You are not going to change your view, vapor though it is, and you are certainly not going to shift mine....

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[tlcandie]

64. Let me answer this for you.....

ummm, errrr, aaaahhhhhh ROCKS!!! OH, and home-made suicide bombs. Push 'em into corners, just like an animal, and this is what you get! And we wonder why?

So when you abuse a person or an animal and it turns on you, just exactly whose fault is it that you get maimed or killed in the end?

[bitchkitty]

27. I wish that when you guys

talk about things like this, that you wouldn't make such sweeping statements.

The majority of Palestinians are not terrorists, and do not send their children "strapped with explosives" out to die. In fact, I don't remember hearing about any Palestinian children blowing themselves up. There was one woman, a few years ago, but I haven't heard of any children. Unless of course you're referring to men in their 20s as children?

Please don't tar all Palestinians with the same brush, and don't discount their suffering.

[The Magistrate]

28. The Good Doctor, Ma'am

Is clearly not refering in his comment to all Arab Palestinians, but to those militant irregular bodies that do indeed act as he describes. Perhaps it is merely my advanced age, but many of the bombers are in their teens, and would be considered children in most definitions....

[bitchkitty]

34. Maybe you're right on one sense,

but in a country where girls are married at 12 and 13, I don't think that 16 is such a tender age.

I really should no better than to even read a thread about Israel and/or Palestine, much less respond in one. I'm so very, very sick of the state of things. So much despair and suffering, and callousness. It's so depressing.

[The Magistrate]

35. There Is Something To That, Ma'am

But of course, when they throw stones at soldiers and get shot for it, persons that age are invariably reported as children: it just sounds better somehow....

[bitchkitty]

72. Rocks are not grenades

and Israeli soldiers are not all murderous thugs, nor are they all paragons of virtue. All Palestinians are not terrorists and all do not approve of suicide bombers. I think you can safely say that almost all Palestinians are suffering because of the actions of the terrorists and the actions (or inaction) of the governments who are supposedly "fighting terror".

The people who start these wars and support them are rarely the ones who pay, and they never pay in blood.

Dammit, I swore I wasn't coming back in here! :)

[The Magistrate]

74. But It Is Such Rum Fun, Ma'am!

My only point was that a sixteen year old is a sixteen year old, and the form of address ought not really alter in accordance with the propaganda point someone hopes to make by invoking the young person's misadventure.

It sounds like we are in substantial agreement concerning the people involved in this ghastly business, and paying the forfeits for incompetent and criminal leadership. The people on both sides, it seems to me, would be satisfied with a settlement far more generous than any of their leaderships would propose or accept....

[bitchkitty]

75. Damn, you talk purty!

:)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. I wholeheartedly disagree, Sir

Please read all the good doctor's posts down in the slum called foreign affairs...some of the most sweeping dehumanizing statements of Arabs have come from his keyboard.

I don't for a minute condone innocent people as targets anymore than I condone Israel CLAIMING to target militants and not caring whether innocents are in the way.

Both sides of this conflict have behaved in the poorest of faith and an interntational peace keeping force should have been brokering this conflict long ago.

( on the lighter side, where's that wild wife of yours? I haven't seen her post recently :D)

[The Magistrate]

47. It Pains Me To Disagree, Ma'am

The cage match down there is my old accustomed haunt, remember, and the Doctor is quite familiar to me from those precincts. It is not possible for any to truely speak to the heart of another, but he is generally pretty careful in his expressions; if he was not, he would likely no longer be among us, after all.

Where he may have acquired some of the repute you ascribe to him is likely two of his particular bete noirs in this subject: the degree of socialization towards martyrdom in Arab Palestinian society, and the degree to which Anti-Semitism is promulgated in the Islamic press. Both are certainly things that are present to some degree in the situation, and neither is particularly helpful to its peaceful resolution. Pointing them out, even strenuously, does not seem to me to indicate bigotry.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. I'll accept you interpretation as I trust it

maybe I've just seen the worst ones.

[The Magistrate]

61. Thank You, Ma'am

She Who MUst Be Obeyed is taking her pleasures in other directions just now....

I will tell her of your interest.

"Never take rides from strange men, and remember, all men are strange as hell."

[kysrsoze]

30. Their quickness to defend all Israeli actions and condemn all Palestinian

actions shows a distinct lack of education on the subject. The truth is FAR different, but most people don't bother to look into it. It's like talking to a brick wall.

[The Magistrate]

32. And What, Sir, Is Truth?

Quoth jesting Pilate....

"It ain't what you know, it's what you know that ain't so."

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. There certainly have been children suicide bombers

Closing a blind eye to child suicide bombers

Where's the outrage over the Palestinians' mistreatment of children?

By Dan Abrams
Updated: 11:37 a.m. ET March 26, 2004

It has happened again, still with no ensuing outrage from the human rights groups. Another Palestinian child was narrowly prevented from becoming a human bomb. This one, a 16-year-old (although some have reported that he is only 14 years old), was wrapped in explosives vests under his clothing and was stopped by Israeli forces at a West Bank checkpoint. His family is saying he has the intelligence of a 12-year-old and yet still the human rights groups continue to turn a blind eye.

When an 11-year-old was stopped with a bag filled with explosives on March 15, I asked in my “Closing Argument” the next day, Where is the outrage? Why aren’t the human rights groups chastising the Palestinians as they do others who misuse or mistreat children? Amnesty International told us they “condemn these attacks, regardless of the age of individual.” But they never felt the need to specifically condemn the use of children as suicide bombers because there had been “no previous incidents.”

I offered numerous examples of other incidents. But really, that’s just the beginning of the problem. They still don’t get it. When children are involved, they are being used and manipulated by adults who have indoctrinated them. Just condemning suicide bombing says nothing about the abuse of children. This is not just about Palestinians targeting Israeli civilians. It’s about Palestinians targeting Palestinian children. But when it came to the Sierra Leone conflict, for example, Amnesty International singled out the recruitment or use of children by parties to the conflict as a war crime.

more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4601244/

The funny thing is that since Israel has begun construction of this wall, suicide bombings by both children and adults have dropped dramaticlly.

[bitchkitty]

73. Again, NOT ALL PALESTINIANS

are terrorists. I don't deny that there are some really bad people over there, on both sides. The author speaks of two instances that were averted and sites "numerous other incidents".

On edit - if you know of such a specific incident, please post a link. I like documentation, I'm a Taurus.

On edit again (sorry) - I should have said specific incidents of a successful suicide bombing carried out by a child.

[Freddie Stubbs]

78. Here is one incident

Suicide bomber, 12, held by Israelis

From correspondents in Nablus, West Bank


THE Israeli army said it arrested a 12-year-old Palestinian boy wearing a suicide belt at a checkpoint near the northern West Bank city of Nablus today.

The boy was stopped at the Hawara checkpoint just south of Nablus when the soldiers began asking men to lift up their shirts to check whether they were carrying weapons or explosives, witnesses said.
It was not known whether he tried to activate the belt when the soldiers discovered it.

"Move away, I am carrying an explosive belt," he told Palestinians queueing at the checkpoint, several witnesses said.

more: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9069883%255E1702,00.html

Of course most Palestinians aren't terrorists. Just like most residents in high-crime areas are criminals. But many businesses there have bullet-proof glass between the customers and cash registers. The wall serves the purpose of keeping out those who would attempt to spread terror.

[Freddie Stubbs]

79. And here is another

Israelis Stop Teen Wearing Bomb Vest

Mar 24, 3:03 PM (ET)

By ALI DARAGHMEH


HAWARA CHECKPOINT, West Bank (AP) - A 16-year-old Palestinian with a suicide bomb vest strapped to his body was caught at a crowded West Bank checkpoint Wednesday, setting off a tense encounter with Israeli soldiers whom the army said he was sent to kill.

The soldiers, taking cover behind concrete barriers, sent a yellow army robot to bring scissors to the teenager so he could cut off the vest. They then made him strip to his underwear to ensure he was unarmed before detaining him.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the latest in a series of foiled attacks on Israel by Palestinian youths.

The family of the teenager, identified as Hussam Abdo, said he was gullible and easily manipulated.

more: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040324/D81GUJ3O0.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

81. And yet another

Children, a new part of Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Correspondents Report - Sunday, 21 March , 2004
Reporter: Mark Willacy
HAMISH ROBERTSON: Israeli security chiefs say that Palestinian militant groups are increasingly turning to children to carry out deadly suicide attacks.

Last weekend, two Palestinian high school students from the Gaza Strip carried out a double suicide bombing at a heavily guarded Israeli port, killing 10 people. And an 11-year old boy was sent to an Israeli checkpoint with a large bomb inside a bag. Well that device was discovered and safely detonated, but security sources say that the bomb was set to explode when called by a mobile phone.

So are Islamic militias turning more to children to carry out attacks?

Our Middle East Correspondent Mark Willacy reports from Jerusalem.

more: http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/content/2004/s1070157.htm

[bitchkitty]

83. Thank you.

That's what I was looking for. That's two who were successful.

It's a crying shame that children would be used in this way. But it doesn't absolve the thugs on either side, I might add.

Maybe we could start referring to Palestinians or other Arabs who commit such crimes as something else other than just "Palestinians", and stop condenming an entire culture, however unintentionally, for the actions of a terrible few? It's like saying all Southerners are racist, and just as offensive.

[drdon326]

105. Nonsense....

i never said anything of the sort.

[The Stranger]

37. Based on events in the last three and one-half years.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. But is appears that he does speak to a majority of Democrats in the House

147 Democrats voted for this. Only 40 voted against it.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll378.xml

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. Widest. Brush. EVAH.

Please rephrase. "Sharon & his Likud loonies" would suffice.

[Mari333]

7. Repugs pandering to the Armageddon Lobby votes

http://www.againstbombing.com/ArmageddonUpdates.htm

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Actually a majority of Democrats voted for this also

Only 40 of the 205 Democrats in the House voted against it.

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2004&rollnumber=378

[Disturbed]

11. Mr . Sharon

Tear down that wall of shame!!!!

Repubs and Dems that voted for this are chicken shit War Criminal abeters. The Israeli Govt. is emulating similar tactics that were used against them in Nazi Germany.

[drdon326]

12. Really ?

Don't you think the fence has saved untold number of lives ?

"The Israeli Govt. is emulating similar tactics that were used against them in Nazi Germany."

What tactics are those specifically??

Dont you think the campaign of genocide,crimes against humamity
and endless war crimes committed by pal.terrorists against innocent israelis warrant a defensive fence ?

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Maybe; but not an offensive barrier (n/t)

[drdon326]

15. HUH??

How is it offensive ??

You make a statement with with no basis in fact.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. because it steals Palestinian land

and thus breaks the Fourth Geneva Convention. "Offensive" as in "I find this offensive", although the attempt to steal land may also be termed "offensive" in the sense of "attacking" as well, if you allow a little metaphor too.

[The Magistrate]

25. Disturbed, Are You, Sir?

It is quite clear from your comments you have not got the slightest idea of the reality of Nazi practice, whether in the sphere of anti-partisan warfare, or the extermination of Jews and other racial undesirables.

The common Nazi tactics used in partisan suppression were execution of hostages in ratios of ten for one or more, and execution of all young males, or on occassion all persons of any condition, residing near a partisan operation. To apply this to the situation of conflict between Israel and Arab Palestine today would require you to demonstrate that, at minimum, the Israeli response to the killing of a dozen Israelis by an Arab Palestinian attack was answered by the Israeli army taking a couple of hundred Arab Palestinian prisoners out of jail and publicly hanging them.

There can be no question whatever of claiming the Israeli government is attempting the extermination of the people of Arab Palestine, which was the clear intent of Nazis toward Jews. The quantity of corpse present in the situation is grotesquely insufficient for the charge. In a period of hostilities lasting nearly four years, the number of Arab Palestinians killed amounts to about one tenth of one percent of that population. To call this an attempt at extermination is to show up in an emergency room shrieking to be saved from a paper cut.

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. Are Rosa DeLauro and Barney Frank 'chicken shit War Criminal abeters?'

They voted for this.

[Mari333]

13. ahh the Dems...bastions of the mushy center n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. 19 members of the Progressive Caucus voted for this

Lynn Woolsey, Major Owens, Tammy Baldwin, Rosa DeLauro, Lane Evans, Barney Frank, Luis Gutierrez, Luis Gutierrez, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, Tom Lantos, James McGovern, Jerry Nadler, John Olver, Nancy Pelosi, Jan Schakowsky, Jose Serrano, John Tierney, Tom Udall, and Henry Waxman all voted for this. Woolsey and Owens are actually officers in this caucus.

http://bernie.house.gov/pc/members.asp

Are all these people centrists?

[The Magistrate]

26. Our Radical Friends, Mr. Stubbs

Have a great deal of difficulty wrapping their minds around the fact that the great majority of the people in our country, of whatever political stripe, side with Israel in this matter....

[Mari333]

36. The wall reminds me of the ghetto wall of Warsaw

built by the Nazis to contain the Jewish people.
History, often, repeats itself.
I am sick to death of war, and especially silly and ignorant religious wars..the descendants of people in the Middle East fighting each other over a piece of land. Stupid stupid men with their stupid stupid ideas about whose god is the most important.
F*cking STUPID.
Its time the mothers all went into these places and started boxing the ears of the men who continue this inane bullshit..
starting with Arafat and Sharon..both need their ears boxed by a large angry grandmother..
ignorant, ignorant people, everyone who fights in wars over religion and territory.

[The Magistrate]

38. Do You Imagine, Ma'am, Nazis Invented Walled Ghettos?

This sort of thing gets awfully tiresome, because often people are well meaning, but can display no sense whatever in questions of analogy and metaphor.

Walled enclosure of Jewish neighborhoods dates in Europe to the Medieval period. The diagnostic of the Nazi enclosures was not that they enclosed, but that they were contrived as pens in which people were to be starved and sickened while being held in place for shipment to extermination facilities.

[Mari333]

48. I imagine this

that the LIKUD govt run by that nutcase Sharon stop pandering to the ultra religious reich christian conservatives in the USA, and vice versa...that the people of Israel and the people of Palestine start behaving like mature adults and not like brats, like adolescent teenagers, and like insane religionists..that the insane christian right in the USA dump their inane Armegeddon policies and start growing up and behaving like mature adults...every damned one of them

in the meantime, the whole thing is a mess because religious wars over whose god has the biggest dick and wields the most power seems to be the only reason everyone fights..
Again, Sharon and Arafat need their ass kicked by a group of mothers who are sick and tired of the little boy spats. I raised three boys, and I know what bratty behaviour is. Its high time they started behaving , every damn one of the brats who run the policies in the USA, Israel, and Arafat also..
stupid stupid people. Ignorant Patriarchal CRAP

[The Magistrate]

58. Fair Enough, Ma'am

Our differences are clearly less than meets the eye....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Mari333]

60. =) I just get angry..Im an idealist and believe the world

could be compassionate, and mature, if it just tried.
thanks for letting me vent.

[The Magistrate]

66. My Own Inclination, Ma'am

Is to expect very little from the beast: better to be occassionally surprised than consistently disappointed is my motto....

"I know of nothing against him except that he is a human being: that ought to be enough to hang any man!"

[SOS]

77. From Life Against the Wall by Chris Hedges in Mother Jones August 2004:

"Qalqilya is a ghetto. It is completely surrounded by a wall, with one small Israeli checkpoint to let it's residents pass into the West bank or return home. Only those with special Israeli-issued permits can enter the town. It is not the Lodz ghetto or the Warsaw ghetto, but it is a ghetto that would be recognizable to the 16th-century Jews in Rome who were herded into a walled enclave by Pope Paul IV in 1555 and stranded there for generations. Qalqilya, like all ghettos, is dying. And dozens of ringed ghettos like it are being created as the serpentine barrier snaking it's way through the length of the West Bank lays down nooses around Palestinian cities, towns, villages and fields"

[The Magistrate]

80. And How Many Corpses, Sir

Dead of starvation and epidemic disease are counted each morning on its streets? How many are taken away each month by the Aktion squads for transport to the extermination centers?

A thing can be wrong without being the worst thing imaginable, you know. This sort of thing is mere laziness on the part of the propagandists, and an appalling disrespect to the gravity of suffering that was actually inflicted in the thing they attempt to hitch a ride on....

[SOS]

86. Mr. Hedges, the "lazy propagandist",

corroborates the point you made in post 38. He clearly states that Qalqilya is NOT the Warsaw ghetto.
It is, however, a ghetto.

"A thing can be wrong...."

[The Magistrate]

87. Then Why, Sir

Are you raising this article in support of an assertion of identity between such situations and Nazi rule in Warsaw circa 1942?

[SOS]

91. Mr. Hedges

provides a clear distinction between the Nazi and Israeli ghettos. I brought up the article for clarification purposes only. (re: posts 36 and 38)

[The Magistrate]

92. That Exchange Seemed Clear Enough Already, Sir

Mr. Hedges is one of those some swear by, and some swear at....

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. The wall is actually causing something to happen

There used to be suicide bombings at least once a week. Now there has only been one in the last few months.

[Triana]

31. GOOD for the international court!

"precious ally Israel"?

Excuuuuuuuuuuuuse ME? Israel is about as much an ally to me as the Repigs are - in fact there are striking similarities between the two...

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Over 2/3 of the Democrats in the House of Representatives would disagree

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll378.xml

[The Magistrate]

62. They Are Incorrect To Do So, Mr. Stubbs

The Court was not misused; it is supposed to give advisory opinions on such questions to U.N. bodies when requested. Nor did the court rule wrongly in this matter: the course of the security barrier being constructed is indeed an offense against international law, particularly against the fourth portion of the Geneva Accords. The decison certainly has its weak points, most noteably a ludicrously restrictive reading of the right of national self-defense, but over all it is sound enough. Even were the decision not flawed in that one particular, the current course of the security barrier could not meet the test of national self-defense, though its construction on some other lines likely could do so.

[Walt Starr]

44. Mr. Sharon, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!!!

I have as much respect for the nation of Israel as I did for Apartheid in South Africa, which is to say NONE!

[whosinpower]

53. I don't like the wall, but

I do understand their need for security. To this, I would have no porblem whatsoever IF, and I will repeat this in the most simple terms - IF they build the wall on the green line - the 1967 border.

Instead they continue to attempt to break up where the palistinians live into small fragmented areas that are unsustainable - in other words they are attempting to take all the land and leave no room whatsoever for the two state solution.

[Walt Starr]

89. I don't understand the wall

and they have brought their own security issues upon themselves through brutal repression.

[goodhue]

49. Roll Call 378 - Do you agree with your rep's vote?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll378.xml

YEAS 361
Ackerman
Aderholt
Akin
Alexander
Allen
Andrews
Baca
Bachus
Baker
Baldwin
Ballenger
Barrett (SC)
Bartlett (MD)
Barton (TX)
Bass
Beauprez
Bell
Berkley
Berman
Berry
Biggert
Bilirakis
Bishop (GA)
Bishop (NY)
Bishop (UT)
Blackburn
Blunt
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bonner
Bono
Boozman
Boswell
Boucher
Boyd
Bradley (NH)
Brady (PA)
Brady (TX)
Brown (OH)
Brown (SC)
Brown, Corrine
Brown-Waite, Ginny
Burgess
Burns
Burr
Burton (IN)
Buyer
Calvert
Camp
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Cardin
Cardoza
Carson (OK)
Carter
Castle
Chabot
Chandler
Chocola
Clyburn
Coble
Cole
Cooper
Costello
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cummings
Davis (AL)
Davis (CA)
Davis (FL)
Davis (TN)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal (GA)
DeLauro
DeLay
DeMint
Diaz-Balart, L.
Diaz-Balart, M.
Dicks
Dooley (CA)
Doolittle
Doyle
Dreier
Duncan
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Emanuel
Emerson
Engel
English
Eshoo
Etheridge
Evans
Everett
Feeney
Ferguson
Flake
Foley
Forbes
Ford
Fossella
Frank (MA)
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gallegly
Garrett (NJ)
Gephardt
Gerlach
Gibbons
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gingrey
Gonzalez
Goode
Goodlatte
Gordon
Goss
Granger
Graves
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Gutierrez
Gutknecht
Hall
Harman
Harris
Hart
Hastings (FL)
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Hensarling
Herger
Herseth
Hill
Hinojosa
Hobson
Hoekstra
Honda
Hooley (OR)
Hostettler
Houghton
Hoyer
Hulshof
Hunter
Hyde
Israel
Istook
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Jenkins
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, E. B.
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Jones (OH)
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kildee
Kind
King (IA)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Kline
Knollenberg
Kolbe
Lampson
Langevin
Lantos
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Latham
LaTourette
Levin
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
Lipinski
LoBiondo
Lowey
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
Lynch
Maloney
Manzullo
Markey
Marshall
Matheson
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCarthy (NY)
McCollum
McCotter
McCrery
McGovern
McHugh
McInnis
McIntyre
McKeon
McNulty
Meehan
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Mica
Michaud
Millender-McDonald
Miller (FL)
Miller (MI)
Miller (NC)
Miller, Gary
Moore
Moran (KS)
Murphy
Murtha
Musgrave
Myrick
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal (MA)
Nethercutt
Neugebauer
Ney
Northup
Norwood
Nunes
Nussle
Oberstar
Olver
Ortiz
Osborne
Ose
Otter
Owens
Oxley
Pallone
Pascrell
Pearce
Pelosi
Pence
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Pombo
Porter
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Radanovich
Ramstad
Rangel
Regula
Rehberg
Renzi
Reyes
Reynolds
Rodriguez
Rogers (AL)
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Ros-Lehtinen
Ross
Rothman
Roybal-Allard
Royce
Ruppersberger
Ryan (WI)
Ryun (KS)
Sánchez, Linda T.
Sanchez, Loretta
Sandlin
Saxton
Schakowsky
Schiff
Schrock
Scott (GA)
Scott (VA)
Sensenbrenner
Serrano
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Sherman
Sherwood
Shimkus
Shuster
Simmons
Simpson
Skelton
Slaughter
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Snyder
Souder
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Strickland
Stupak
Sullivan
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tanner
Tauscher
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thompson (CA)
Thornberry
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Tierney
Toomey
Towns
Turner (OH)
Turner (TX)
Udall (CO)
Udall (NM)
Upton
Van Hollen
Visclosky
Vitter
Walden (OR)
Walsh
Wamp
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
Wexler
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (SC)
Wolf
Woolsey
Wu
Young (AK)

NAYS 45
Abercrombie
Baird
Becerra
Capps
Clay
Conyers
Davis (IL)
DeGette
Dingell
Farr
Fattah
Filner
Grijalva
Hinchey
Inslee
Issa
Jackson (IL)
Kanjorski
Kaptur
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaHood
Lee
Lewis (GA)
Lofgren
McDermott
Miller, George
Mollohan
Moran (VA)
Obey
Pastor
Paul
Payne
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rohrabacher
Rush
Ryan (OH)
Sanders
Solis
Stark
Waters
Watt
Wynn

ANSWERED “PRESENT” 13
Bereuter
Blumenauer
Capuano
Case
Cunningham
DeFazio
Doggett
Holt
Jefferson
Leach
Petri
Sabo
Velázquez

NOT VOTING 14
Carson (IN)
Collins
Delahunt
Deutsch
Franks (AZ)
Greenwood
Hoeffel
Holden
Isakson
Majette
Pomeroy
Thompson (MS)
Watson
Young (FL)

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. Yes

He voted the right way on this issue.

[goodhue]

55. Mine (Sabo) voted present

I wish he had voted Nay. I kind of have this hang up about supporting international law. I'm guessing your rep voted Yay and that we disagree about this issue. Thanks for the reply.

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. A very couragous stand indeed

At least most Democrats had the cahones to take a stand on this issue, right or wrong.

[Walt Starr]

93. I just lost a lot of respect for two I have voted for

I used to live in Jan Schakowsky's district and later was represented by Rahm Emmanuel (whom I also voted for) after redistricting.

I now live in Judy Bigot's district.

All three voted the WRONG way as far as I'm concerned on this vote.

[IA_Seth]

101. Leach

Jim Leach

What a fitting (if misspelled) name for this Republican puke.

Of course he didn't vote either way on this, preferring to answer "present" because an election is too close and he is a chickenshit afraid to stand up for anything.

Hopefully he will be replaced by Dave Franker this year!

[leesa]

59. Our Congress...whores for Israel

[Freddie Stubbs]

65. Even the 19 members of the Progressive Caucus who voted for this?

:shrug:

[IA_Seth]

70. UN/World Court - Why are we still involved?

Why is that the US is still involved with the UN and the World Court if we will flaunt every resolution or ruling they pass that goes against the US or Israel? It seems like our ties to them are nothing more than a convenience, a joke really.

We have let all of the alliances, all of the good that came from the evil of WWII and the Cold War, go to shit. We need to start looking past our generation and look to the future of this WORLD, not just this country.

As much as we preach democracy, we sure do like to go against the majority and do whatever the hell we want when it suits us best.

[progressivebydesign]

84. Before anyone condemns the Palestinians..

.. you go live amongst them, okay? Find out what it's like to be herded into deplorable conditions, and treated like a subhuman, in a country that used to yours. Feel yourself being relegated to a third world existence, while the oppressors work to keep you out of their affluent shopping centers, discos, and restaurants... you are moved into a settlement camp after your house is bulldozed.

I do not condone the suicide attacks on Israel.. of course. But, until Israel starts treating the Palestinians like humans, and stop their aggression, what do you expect from them? It's so much like the U.S. and Iraq right now... I don't expect the Palestinians to throw flowers at the Israeli tanks bulldozing their neighborhoods.

How I LONG for the good old days, when we actually had REAL presidents who worked for a REAL peace in that region. Not a coward who rubber stamps the bloody aggression of Israel. Once there were hopes of peace and resolution, now it seems that the pro-Israel lobby in America is pushing only conquer, not peace.

[nolabels]

85. AIPAC "applauds the House of Representatives

AIPAC has 361 folks in the US House of Representatives that act just like whores.


CalPundit: The Neocon Persuasion:

To summarize: neocons want to cut taxes, team up with the religious right to maintain traditional cultural values, and aggressively defend democracy and American interests in the broadest possible sense...

Let's go through these planks of "neoconservatism" one by one, shall we?
(snip)
"The neoconservatives' goals appear to include:
-destruction of the New Deal and Great Society programs"

This is a shared value among neocons and many traditional conservatives. I have friends who will oppose *any* tax increase and support *any* rollback, based on their expressed objective to starve the government into surrendering these and other domestic programs; but

-fusion of church and state to create a theocracy"

(snip)

"-expansion of police state powers in the US so that any internal enemies can be eliminated, including jailing,deportation, or stripping of citizenship (note this has nothing to do with terrorism per se)
-total control of government including the courts, with "true believers" in all important judgeships
-destroying the bill of rights except for the right to bear arms"

(snip)
http://econ161.berkeley.edu/movable_type/2003_archives/001994.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

98. Lynn Woolsey and Major Owens acted like 'whores?'

They voted for this.

[Jack Rabbit]

88. The ICJ's ruling is sound

Israel was building the fence in occupied territory. This was less for Israel's own security, but for the security of settlements constructed in violation of Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel has a security problem, but it can be resolved by constructing a security barrier on or closer to the Green Line and withdrawing Israeli nationals in occupied within that confine. Although some may object to the Green Line as an international border, it has served that purpose for decades and should be thought of as one. It is certainly a boundary more agreed upon and recognized than any arbitrary point that Sharon would draw. It is the starting point for any negotiations for a final border.

There may be no Palestinian state at this time, but there is a Palestine. It is the West Bank and the Gaza. It is occupied territory and, as such, Israel cannot treat it as a conquered province to do as she pleases. The days when states go to war and unilaterally expropriate territory are past. To paraphrase , acquisition of territory through war is inadmissible. The rules of the Fourth Geneva Convention apply.

The ruling of the International Court of Justice concerning Israel's security barrier in the West Bank is a sound application of the relevant law to the facts.

A vote of 361-45 by the same body that approved giving Mr. Bush the power to invade Iraq won't change that.

[The Magistrate]

90. Indeed, My Friend

Someone has cracked the seal, and loosed the demons on the upper airs....

"On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

[nolabels]

99. Not on anybodies side here, but does anyone get what was not spun ?

House Votes to Block Aid for Saudi Arabia

Jul 15, 11:40 PM (ET)

By Anna Willard

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Lawmakers cheered as the House of Representatives voted on Thursday to strip financial assistance for Saudi Arabia from a foreign aid bill because of criticism that the country has not been sufficiently cooperative in the U.S. war on terror.

The vote was a stinging defeat for the Bush Administration which had strongly opposed the measure saying it would "severely undermine" counterterrorism cooperation with Saudi Arabia and U.S. efforts for peace in the Middle East.

The House voted 217-191 to remove $25,000 in the $19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill earmarked for Saudi Arabia.

The funds were designated for military training but approval would have triggered millions of dollars in discounts on hardware and other military training, lawmakers said.

"I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to the Saudis and I don't want anyone else's to," said Nevada Democratic Rep. Shelley Berkley.
(snip)
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/415308|top|07-15-2004::23:47|reuters.html

[goforit]

102. Does anyone give a F*ck what the US House says anymore???

Worthless group of schmucks whom think they have power.

Don't let them know their power was taken away from them 3 years ago!!!