Questions asked of Mossad's involvement in NZ and Aust

[No Passaran]

Eli Cara and Uriel Kelman were yesterday jailed for six months for trying to fraudulently obtain a New Zealand passport.

They haven't been charged with espionage but New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark, is adamant that they are Israeli security agents.

So why might Mossad be interested in New Zealand and indeed in this country, given one of the men spent a significant time, as we suggested, in Sydney, apparently working as a travel agent?

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1155871.htm

[DarkPhenyx]

1. They spy on us...

...we spy on them. NZ spies on the two of us spying on each other and we spy on them spying on us. It's a very old game.

[thebigidea]

2. yes, New Zealand is known for its crack intelligence agency

Israel is probably crawling with SIS!



And be sure to watch SIS: The Series... coming this fall on UPN!

[DarkPhenyx]

13. I believe you took it too literally.

Unfortuante. That means you missed my point.

[thebigidea]

14. I'm sure it was a very thoughtful point that...

... could've changed the whole course of my life. Instead I used it as an opportunity to have some fun with New Zealand's powerful spy agency.

Most unfortunate! Oh well... one day I'll look back on this and wonder what could've been... if only I had paid more attention to your point. If only.

[DarkPhenyx]

15. You can be forgiven my son.

It will only take 50 "Hail Darkstar"'s and an act of contrition.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

19. It may sound funny to people not in the know...

But SIS is one of the most effective intelligence agencies in the world. Why do I say this? Becasue SIS runs one part of the Echelon system.

The partners in Echelon are The US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The Echelon listening station in NZ is at Tangimoana.

Not only does SIS get information that it gathers at Tangimoana, but thanks to the Echelon system, it also gets access to the information gathered by the other partners.

So, while it may seem funny, I can gaurantee that because I am viewing this thread, so is SIS!

[thebigidea]

26. which is why I encourage a teevee action series ASAP

and what a gorgeous backdrop the series would have... with occasional hops to Tangier...

note to SIS: contact me asap. will work for circus peanuts.

[bobthedrummer]

3. Pine Gap, NSA, or that NASA tracking station for starts.

What if they're Israeli mafia with nebulous Mossad connection?

[Minstrel Boy]

4. The CIA helped topple Australia's Labour govt of Gough Whitlam

in 1975 in order, in large part, to keep the secrets of its Pine Gap installation.

[bobthedrummer]

5. Thanks for reminding me of it's name-Pine Gap, I've got to edit a subject

line now!
Good morning Minstrel Boy. Hi Canada!
:hi:

[Minstrel Boy]

6. hey bob!

:hi:

Here's something I posted a few days ago about Whitlam and Pine Gap, that mentions some old pals of yours by the names of Colby, Angleton and Shackley:

Whitlam was shocked to learn the extent of the CIA's operations in Australia, and how deeply embedded it was in Australian intelligence. He wanted to get to the truth of the top secret Pine Gap installation near Alice Springs. Its lease was coming up for renewal, and the Agency had doubts that Whitlam would extend it.

From New Dawn:

People at the highest levels were concerned about what Whitlam might do to the long-standing Australian - U.S. relationship. CIA Director until 1975, William Colby, in his book Honorable Men, ranked the Whitlam government as one of the major crises of his career, comparable to the 1973 Yom Kippur (Arab-Israeli) War, when the U.S. had considered using nuclear weapons to help Israel win the war.

Many others in the intelligence community were concerned, including Ted Shackley, head of the East Asia Division of the CIA, who was said to be paranoid about Whitlam; and James Jesus Angleton, head of the CIA's Counter-Intelligence section, who despised the Labor government.
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/20%20Years%20of%20Cover-Up1.html

To Australian Intelligence, CIA's Shackley cabled:

CIA FEELS THAT EVERYTHING POSSIBLE HAS BEEN DONE ON A DIPLOMATIC BASIS AND NOW ON AN INTELLIGENCE LIAISON LINK THEY FEEL THAT IF THIS PROBLEM CANNOT BE SOLVED THEY DO NOT SEE HOW OUR MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE

THE CIA FEELS GRAVE CONCERNS AS TO WHERE THIS TYPE OF PUBLIC DISCUSSION MAY LEAD. THE DG SHOULD BE ASSURED THAT CIA DOES NOT LIGHTLY ADOPT THIS ATTITUDE. YOUR URGENT ADVICE WOULD BE APPRECIATED AS TO THE REPLY WHICH SHOULD BE MADE TO CIA.

AMBASSADOR IS FULLY INFORMED OF THIS MESSAGE.

As Shackley's cable indicated, there were several other CIA men working under cover in Australia. Their identities had not been revealed by Whitlam, but by the media. Nevertheless, there was no way for Shackley and the CIA to know how much Whitlam knew, and how much he would reveal to the public, especially about Pine Gap, but also about other CIA activities in Australia. Shackley may have already known that Whitlam had begun to look into CIA matters in Australia.

By revealing what he knew already, Whitlam had telegraphed his intentions. He had to be stopped.

Whitlam did not have the opportunity to present the proof he had about CIA involvement in Australian politics to Parliament on November 11. He was dismissed by Governor-General Sir John Kerr at 1:10 p.m. that day.

What may be nearly as unfortunate as the Dismissal of an elected government is the timing of Whitlam's revelations about the CIA and Anthony. Labor Minister Clyde Cameron, wrote in his diaries, "Once his allegations hit the headlines, the sources dried up immediately." Whitlam had moved too soon.
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/20%20Years%20of%20Cover-Up2.html

Pine Gap

[no safe haven]

11. The subject of the secrecy surrounding Pine Gap

...was well covered in a book by Desmond Ball, "A Suitable Piece of Real Estate: American Installations in Australia" 1980. Might be out of print by now, but if you can find it, it's well worth the read.

[bobthedrummer]

12. Angleton's "moles" proved to be real imo. The Cold War even saw

the war between law enforcement (Hoover's FBI) and US intelligence (with real Nazis and organized crime) heat up and CIA/FBI communications shut off.

Angleton was right about the moles but wrong on identities AND scope.

Now we are told there has been a worldwide intelligence "failure"-lol.

[ilovenicepeople]

21. HOWDY BOB!

Hello to fellow Canadian DUer's as well! HOWDY ALL:hi:

[starroute]

16. The overthrow of Whitlam and the Nugan Hand Bank

Nugan Hand was one of those notorious CIA money-laundering banks, the precursor to BCCI. But it also seems to have played a significant role in the overthrow of Whitlam:

"The Nugan Hand Bank was well placed to destabilize the government of Labor Party Prime Minister Gough Whitlam. His government had conducted such outrages (to American minds) as pulling troops out of Vietnam; ending conscription; supporting the Indian Ocean Zone of Peace proposals; attacking the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam; and interfering with Australian intelligence efforts to aid Indonesia's invasion of East Timor and the overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile.

"The Bank helped finance a clever variety of bugging and forgery operations. Nugan Hand transferred $24 million to the Australian Liberal Party through one of its many associated companies. It tried to blackmail a cabinet minister investigating organized crime by opening up a Swiss bank account in his name and threatening to leak the information. Twice during 1975 the Whitlam government was damaged through sensational scandals broken open by mysterious leaks to the press, forcing resignations of Cabinet ministers."


http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/v04n5p15.htm

[mulethree]

23. What do they listen too?

Echelon is signal intercept, capturing radio and satellite communications. Presumably also sniffing on undersea cables and fiber optic communications.

Sorry I don't know a lot about New Zealand, but they seem to be, geographically, way out in the middle of nowhere. What sort of communications are there around NZ to intercept aside from stuff going too/from NZ?

[The Magistrate]

7. There Is Not Much Mystery To This, Mr Cocky

New Zealand papers are pretty innocuous at most any border crossing, and points of origin in the South Seas do not suggest to many minds a Middle Eastern connection....

[geek tragedy]

8. Didn't they do this in Canada as well?

The Mossad is getting sloppy. You don't see the French or even the CIA getting caught like this.

[The Magistrate]

10. They Need A Better Forgery Operation, Sir

"If you are caught or killed, the Secretary will dis-avow any knowledge of your actions."

[JohnyCanuck]

18. Yes Israeli agents used (fake) Canadian passports as cover

Here's a BBC report from November 1998.

The Canadian Foreign Minister, Lloyd Axworthy, has ordered an investigation into allegations that Israeli secret service members are still using Canadian passports for covert operations.

But he admitted that there was no evidence to support new allegations, reported by a Canadian television programme on Tuesday, that Mossad is still seeking Canadian passports.

Israel undertook to take steps to end the practice in 1997, after Israeli agents were caught carrying doctored Canadian passports.

<snip>

After the incident became public, Canada received pledges from the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Foreign Minister, David Levy, that Israel would no longer use Canadian passports in covert operations.

I think probably the Israeli's trying to falsely obtain NZ passports were probably doing so to allow them to travel unobtrusively between various locations. The same reason they used Canadian passports until they were caught at it. After all, New Zealand and Canada are not traditionally associated with the spy vs spy bad stuff that is run of the mill for states like the US, Russia, Britain, France and of course Israel and various Arab countries, so I imagine passport holders from states like Canada or NZ might not receive the same level of scrutiny that others might get at border crossings, customs and imigration offices etc. Imagine if a guy turned up at the airport in Saudi Arabi, Kuwait or the UAE with a NZ passport and another guy turned up with an Israeli passport. Which one would likely have the easier time gaining entry and be least likely to undergo surveillance during his visit?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/208368.stm

[mallard]

29. Yes - only in New Zealand to get those Kiwi passports ...

.. that would let them go ahead to Indonesia/Malaysia/Pakistan etc., as 'tourists', where Israelis are otherwise barred from entry.

And you get a picture idea that unlike our very professional-looking mom and pops types, these Mossad travelers like going as perfectly innocent tourists.

[Matilda]

30. Actually, two French agents were caught in N.Z.

after blowing up the Greenpeace ship Rainbow Warrior while it was
in port, back in 1985.

[seemslikeadream]

9. Riggs Bank Connection

Bank 'ignored laundering laws' in handling dictator's accounts
posts 15, 16, 18

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=686504


WaPo: Ex-Riggs Manager Won't Testify About Accounts (front page)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=689210
Bank 'ignored laundering laws' in handling dictator's accounts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=686504
SA in secret talks over 'mercenary' transfer
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=684129
The Dogs of War
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=9558
Turkey, Drugs, Faustian Alliances & Sibel Edmonds
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=13765

[Jacobin]

17. Good for NZ

Keep the Mossad out of that beautiful country. They can only be up to no good.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

20. An interesting addition...

Jewish headstone attack may be linked to Israeli spy case

16.07.2004 11.12 am

Historic headstones on Jewish graves at a central Wellington cemetery were smashed up overnight.

The headstones in the Victorian Bolton St cemetery were vandalised by an unknown number of people and were found early this morning, a Wellington City Council spokesman said.

Swastikas -- a Nazi symbol -- were also smeared on the ground in front of the graves.

Wellington police were called to the cemetery and the area was cordoned off.

"People are speculating the attack may have been sparked by the two Israeli men and the passport case," the council spokesman said.

source: New Zealand Herald

I have NEVER heard of an Anti-Semitic attack such as this in New Zealand, yet all of a sudden we get this one? Sure it is possible that it is genuine, but it sure does make NZ look bad just after having caught a couple of Israeli spies.

How convenient.

[geek tragedy]

22. Why do you assume it's Israelis/Jews?

There are bigoted idiots everywhere.

[theHandpuppet]

25. The report was poorly worded...

... but I believe they meant that the attack was, speculatively, *in retaliation* for the case involving the Israeli spies, not committed by them or by Israelis.

Methinks there's a writer out there who needs a Journalism 101 refresher course.

[rooboy]

28. It's a valid suspicion to have.

Recently the Macedonian government had to admit that its security forces lured and assassinated innocent Muslims in order to curry favor with the US in the 'war on terror'. During the Bosnian conflict, it was commonplace for one side to bomb its own civilians in order to garner sympathy from the outside world. And to suspect the desecration of jewish graves in a place as secular as New Zealand at this time is entirely appropriate.

Your accusation of anti-Semitism seems to be an attempt to intimidate people against considering an option that you'd rather not hear about.

[tlcandie]

24. I agree.. a little TOO convenient!

eom

[UpInArms]

27. related article: Spy blunder?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/16/spy.blunder/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- It started with two Israelis convicted of trying illegally to obtain a New Zealand passport -- a valuable commodity in the world of international spy craft that can open up doors often closed to Israeli passport holders.

<snip>

The Israelis, Urie Kelman and Eli Cara, are now serving six month jail terms in New Zealand -- after pleading guilty of trying to assume the identity of a wheelchair-bound New Zealander who has cerebral palsy.

It's a classic spy technique -- assume the identity of someone you know can't travel.

<snip>

Prime Minister Clark has strongly condemned the vandalism at the cemetery, which authorities believe is the result of anger towards Israel. She also wants a formal apology from the Israeli government.

So far, that has not been forthcoming.

"Israel is very sorry about the decision that was taken by the government of New Zealand, but we believe that if we will work one with each other, as we used to work in the past, we will overcome the last difficulties," says Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom.

...more...

Wow! What an effective (NOT!) non-apology! Paraphrasing: I'm sorry about what you did? Huh?